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Falls City Beer
05-15-2005, 05:18 PM
I remeber that logo. Philly was Bicentennial crazy.

That is awesome. Nobody's kidding.

Caveat Emperor
05-15-2005, 05:19 PM
Jeeze...first hit of the career comes off Billy Wagner. Not bad, kid. :thumbup:

Reds Fanatic
05-15-2005, 05:19 PM
Bergolla leads off with a single.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:19 PM
Quick note on Elizardo Ramirez. He allowed a .333 OB and .600 SLG today. His ERA won't stay anywhere near 3.00 if he keeps that up.Abreu, just like the other night, got a cheapy in that bandbox, in fairness to those numbers from one game. Ramirez looked like someone who might have a clue and a future. Not a lights out kind of guy, but kept the ball down and had knees buckling with the curve. He also threw the curve on fastball counts.

Chip R
05-15-2005, 05:20 PM
For those not watching, Casey fails to keep the ball in front of him. Should have been able to scoop at the best, keep the ball in front of him at the worst, esp. if he has his head in the game realizing that there is a man that will score from third if it gets by him. Booooo.Yep. A shame Felipe got the error but I suppose since the throw was in the dirt you have to give it to him and not Casey.

Reds Fanatic
05-15-2005, 05:21 PM
Freel walks. 1st and 2nd with no outs.

westofyou
05-15-2005, 05:22 PM
The e means no era boost for wagner, which means I like it since he's on my fantasy team. As is Kearns and Lopez.

Eric_Davis
05-15-2005, 05:22 PM
Stay out of the DP, Casey

Falls City Beer
05-15-2005, 05:22 PM
Freel walks. 1st and 2nd with no outs.

Freel kicks butt and stuff.

Caveat Emperor
05-15-2005, 05:22 PM
He also threw the curve on fastball counts.

Something hitters will see in a tape, and that he won't get away with in a second start.

Eric_Davis
05-15-2005, 05:24 PM
hang in there Lopez

M2
05-15-2005, 05:24 PM
Abreu, just like the other night, got a cheapy in that bandbox, in fairness to those numbers from one game. Ramirez looked like someone who might have a clue and a future. Not a lights out kind of guy, but kept the ball down and had knees buckling with the curve. He also threw the curve on fastball counts.

I agree he showed some talent. He also got hit hard a few times, which is going to be the fault he has to overcome. I thought it was a fine, if mixed bag, first start.

Reds Fanatic
05-15-2005, 05:24 PM
Lopez grounds into a 5-4 fielder's choice. 1st and 3rd with one out.

M2
05-15-2005, 05:25 PM
Ah, speed. It never slumps.

Falls City Beer
05-15-2005, 05:25 PM
Something hitters will see in a tape, and that he won't get away with in a second start.

Not necessarily. That was Schourek's schtick wasn't it, in 1995 before injuries basically permanently shelved the guy. Throwing any pitch at any point in the count. Mixing it up a whole bunch.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:25 PM
Careful you might want to switch your target of criticism.Just like the catcher helps his pitcher by blocking balls in the dirt, so should a first baseman save his infielders making hurried throws trying to turn the DP. Lopez made an errant throw, he got the error, a good first baseman realizes the situation and makes sure he keeps the ball from getting by him. Casey cost his shortstop an error and the team a run by trying to scoop in the same way LaRue uses poor technique that keeps him from blocking potential wild pitches.

Caveat Emperor
05-15-2005, 05:25 PM
Just setting up the GIDP for Casey.

Reds Fanatic
05-15-2005, 05:26 PM
Casey singles to right. 4-2. 1st and 2nd with one out.

Eric_Davis
05-15-2005, 05:26 PM
Way to go Case! Props to Freel and Bergolla for setting it up.

Falls City Beer
05-15-2005, 05:27 PM
Just like the catcher helps his pitcher by blocking balls in the dirt, so should a first baseman save his infielders making hurried throws trying to turn the DP. Lopez made an errant throw, he got the error, a good first baseman realizes the situation and makes sure he keeps the ball from getting by him. Casey cost his shortstop an error and the team a run by trying to scoop in the same way LaRue uses poor technique that keeps him from blocking potential wild pitches.

I agree. I was just goofin' on an earlier incident wherein I was negged for criticizing Casey's game. :rolleyes:

Reds Fanatic
05-15-2005, 05:28 PM
Lopez goes to 3rd. 1st and 3rd now. Junior hits a sac fly to center. 4-3. 2 outs.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:28 PM
I know the inning plays out differently potentially, but now I hope you see why I rode Casey on that play, FCB.

Eric_Davis
05-15-2005, 05:29 PM
I have no TV...How close was that to a hit for Griffey?

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:29 PM
I agree. I was just goofin' on an earlier incident wherein I was negged for criticizing Casey's game. :rolleyes:Oh, Ok, so you can disregard my "told you so" ;)

Chip R
05-15-2005, 05:29 PM
Casey singles to right. 4-2. 1st and 2nd with one out.Mighty close to a DP there. Man, they should just play all 4 guys in the IF in the right side when Casey's up.

Reds Fanatic
05-15-2005, 05:29 PM
Dunn strikes out looking. Reds lose 4-3.

Caveat Emperor
05-15-2005, 05:30 PM
Man, when you can through 100MPH, there's just no chance to adjust to the breaking pitch.

That's a strike looking whenever he wants it.

Eric_Davis
05-15-2005, 05:30 PM
Giving up that run in the 8th killed us.

Reds Fanatic
05-15-2005, 05:32 PM
Reds left 11 runners on base today.

Eric_Davis
05-15-2005, 05:33 PM
No clutch hitting today.

KittyDuran
05-15-2005, 05:33 PM
Reds left 11 runners on base today.THAT's what killed us.... :bang:

M2
05-15-2005, 05:33 PM
Lopez goes to 3rd.

And he didn't get a SB for it. I hate defensive indifference calls. The Phils shouldn't have been indifferent to it, it prevented them from having a force play at third. The game was close enough that Felipe deserved the SB.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:34 PM
Something hitters will see in a tape, and that he won't get away with in a second start.That really wasn't my point. The note was related to keeping hitters off balance and not being predictable. That all centers on being able to throw that pitch for strikes. I'll say this, that was not your typical 22 year-old from a pitching standpoint. He seems to know how to pitch, refreshing. I would have to say the scouts have him dead on from what I've seen, where he is not stud material, but will look fine as a middle of the rotation steady type of guy. Get enough of those progress, and you start to have a semblance of a staff forming.

westofyou
05-15-2005, 05:35 PM
Reds left 11 runners on base today.

Padilla had Kearn's number.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:36 PM
And he didn't get a SB for it. I hate defensive indifference calls. The Phils shouldn't have been indifferent to it, it prevented them from having a force play at third. The game was close enough that Felipe deserved the SB.Yea, that's a dumb stat based scoring rule. Not sure what purpose it serves. It isn't like guys are winning stolen base titles and winning arbitration hearings with stolen bases accumulated in this manner.

ochre
05-15-2005, 05:37 PM
Yea, that's a dumb stat based scoring rule. Not sure what purpose it serves. It isn't like guys are winning stolen base titles and winning arbitration hearings with stolen bases accumulated in this manner.
If subjectivity can be applied to something as empirical as a stolen base, shouldn't the "saves" stat be reevaluated?

Caveat Emperor
05-15-2005, 05:38 PM
That really wasn't my point. The note was related to keeping hitters off balance and not being predictable. That all centers on being able to throw that pitch for strikes. I'll say this, that was not your typical 22 year-old from a pitching standpoint. He seems to know how to pitch, refreshing. I would have to say the scouts have him dead on from what I've seen, where he is not stud material, but will look fine as a middle of the rotation steady type of guy. Get enough of those progress, and you start to have a semblance of a staff forming.

My point was that Gullett or somebody needs to work with him at remaining deceptive and keeping the hitters guessing.

It works for Aaron Harang; he doesn't have "blow you away" stuff, but he spots his pitches extremely well and he keeps hitters off balanced by not repeating pitch sequences.

Ramirez can be effective, but he needs to work harder than the hitters to do so.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:38 PM
Lizard ought to stick around as an upgrade to the middle relief, which I think he is. He can probably start, but let's keep him out in the pen. I know I'd rather see Ramirez out there to try to keep us in the game or to hold the score in the 5-7 innings than seeing Weathers out there.

westofyou
05-15-2005, 05:40 PM
Yea, that's a dumb stat based scoring rule. Not sure what purpose it serves. It isn't like guys are winning stolen base titles and winning arbitration hearings with stolen bases accumulated in this manner.

Back before the 40's wasn't uncommon for a scorer (who usually was a local sportswriter) to get it from both ends on a decision. Example Ty Cobb threatens Fred Leib about a hit (or so he thought) that was ruled an error. Example two the Yankees owner complains about the opposite, declares that close ones like that can cost him 100's of dollars in negotiation.

M2
05-15-2005, 05:40 PM
Lizard ought to stick around as an upgrade to the middle relief, which I think he is. He can probably start, but let's keep him out in the pen. I know I'd rather see Ramirez out there to try to keep us in the game or to hold the score in the 5-7 innings than seeing Weathers out there.

I'd send him back down before he gets Reithed.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:40 PM
If subjectivity can be applied to something as empirical as a stolen base, shouldn't the "saves" stat be reevaluated?Great point, but then scorekeepers and subjective rulings would result in more ignorant scoring decisions in places like Wrigley and other historically bad scorekeeping parks.

traderumor
05-15-2005, 05:42 PM
I'd send him back down before he gets Reithed.Reith was a wus, more his problem, IMO. Ramirez has held his own at a young age every where he's been. Of course, even with the 911 cleanup, he might be 35 :evil:

lollipopcurve
05-15-2005, 05:46 PM
I was encouraged by Ramirez. I don't think he threw a really bad pitch all game. Great command of the curve and occasional nasty fastball on the outside black to righties. Real good composure pitching out of jams. Looks like an athlete, showing a decent bat and good defense (for a guy without dominating stuff, these things matter). Clearly a young starter to be hopeful about. I like the homage to Pedro with #45, too.

M2
05-15-2005, 05:50 PM
Reith was a wus, more his problem, IMO. Ramirez has held his own at a young age every where he's been. Of course, even with the 911 cleanup, he might be 35 :evil:

IMO, Reith's problem was that he wasn't ready for the majors and he got beaten silly as a result. Elizardo's pitched less than 100 IP in the high minors. I'll guarantee you he's in for some horrendous beatings if he sticks around in the majors. I thought today was a generally positive start for him, but he also showed you why he's not a solution at this time.

Let him go back down to the minors with some confidence and continue to develop. One thing I don't want to see happen this season is for the team to promote a bunch of kids who aren't ready for primetime and mess them up. Minimize the collateral damage.

Falls City Beer
05-15-2005, 05:53 PM
IMO, Reith's problem was that he wasn't ready for the majors and he got beaten silly as a result. Elizardo's pitched less than 100 IP in the high minors. I'll guarantee you he's in for some horrendous beatings if he sticks around in the majors. I thought today was a generally positive start for him, but he also showed you why he's not a solution at this time.

Let him go back down to the minors with some confidence and continue to develop. One thing I don't want to see happen this season is for the team to promote a bunch of kids who aren't ready for primetime and mess them up. Minimize the collateral damage.

I agree, I'd rather not see the quicksand effect take place all over again. Let the big boys fail, and if you must bring up someone green, make sure it's largely in a relief role.

lollipopcurve
05-15-2005, 05:56 PM
Let him go back down to the minors with some confidence and continue to develop. One thing I don't want to see happen this season is for the team to promote a bunch of kids who aren't ready for primetime and mess them up. Minimize the collateral damage.

I agree. And let him loom as a reminder to the other starters that they are highly fungible.

Caveat Emperor
05-15-2005, 06:01 PM
Let him go back down to the minors with some confidence and continue to develop. One thing I don't want to see happen this season is for the team to promote a bunch of kids who aren't ready for primetime and mess them up. Minimize the collateral damage.

Agree completely here. Let him take this experience with him back down to Louisville and let him refine his abilities based on what he learned.

Hopefully Claussen will be ready for his next start and they won't need to use Ramirez again.

CincyRedsFan30
05-15-2005, 09:41 PM
Good game even though we lost.

I will have a longer report later on, but let me say that Ramirez looked good. He changed speeds well and his stuff(especially his curve) seemed to have a lot of bite to it. He looked confident and other than a couple of mistakes, he pitched a very good game. I think he could potentially make it as a 5th starter type pitcher. That final run given up on the low throw by Lopez that bounced away ended up being huge.

Griffey looked back and saw us at our seats and I kinda looked/nodded to him. I boooood Jimenez a bit after blowing it early in the game and I yelled at Miley for a couple of things.