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traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:14 PM
Bad News Bears

MWM
05-16-2005, 10:14 PM
Oh jeez, someone please just put them out of their misery.

this team is worse than 2001.

traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
the Bad News RedsOwe me a coke :)

ws1990reds
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
Larue is horrible, as is Stone.

creek14
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
Welsh - this is not looking too good.

Gee Chris, ya think?

Kc61
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
I wonder if the ever patient Messrs. O'Brien and Miley will finally remove Wilson from the rotation. The team gets slaughtered every time he pitches.

I'm sure Miley stuck with Wilson tonight in the hope that, in the middle innings, he was finally settling down and finding a groove. I won't criticize Miley for keeping him in so long, but enough is enough with Wilson.

Maybe Wilson needs one of those "long toss" programs. Whatever. As for a replacement, let's keep the Lizard in the rotation for awhile. He seems to be very advanced for his age, maybe he'll thrive in the major leagues.

Watching Wilson recalls the days of Haynes, Hamilton, and Jimmy Anderson. Man, this team has run some awful pitchers out there the last few years.

traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
Possible motto for the 2005 pitching staff:

"Batting Practice that Counts"

KronoRed
05-16-2005, 10:16 PM
Wilson needs to be put on the DL and have his arm checked out

No idea who we call up, maybe can get get Ace back? :D

ws1990reds
05-16-2005, 10:16 PM
Stone looks like one of those Crank Yankers fellers, just can't place the name. Wait, maybe Ricky is a skateboarder? :laugh:

traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:16 PM
I'm sure Miley stuck with Wilson tonight in the hope that, in the middle innings, he was finally settling down and finding a groove. I won't criticize Miley for keeping him in so long, but enough is enough with Wilson.

Stella done lost her groove

Reds Nd2
05-16-2005, 10:17 PM
Yes. The Reds take this one.

Ummm, well, it was 4-2 when I posted that. :(

flyer85
05-16-2005, 10:17 PM
Possible motto for the 2005 pitching staff:
Batting Tees R Us

letsgojunior
05-16-2005, 10:18 PM
Oh jeez, someone please just put them out of their misery.

this team is worse than 2001.

The 2001 team, for all of their horribleness (is that a word? I don't think so) was missing Griffey, Larkin, Williamson, Boone, Casey, Harnisch etc for very long stretches. This team hasn't suffered a major injury and is just pitiful at the moment.

ws1990reds
05-16-2005, 10:18 PM
Batting Tees R Us

:laugh:

Reds Nd2
05-16-2005, 10:19 PM
Larue is horrible, as is Stone.

Stone, bad defense.
LaRue, good play. Ball just took a bad hop on Randa. Looked like it hit on the edge of the grass and dirt.

traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:20 PM
Welsh - this is not looking too good.

Gee Chris, ya think?Hey at least the Mets didn't hit one of those "rally killing" leadoff home runs :thumbdown

ws1990reds
05-16-2005, 10:20 PM
Batting Tees R Us

How about:

All Our Base Are Belong To You (similar to geek verse).

? :evil:

ws1990reds
05-16-2005, 10:21 PM
Hey at least the Mets didn't hit one of those "rally killing" leadoff home runs :thumbdown

What in the world was he talking about? Hadn't the game just begun?

westofyou
05-16-2005, 10:22 PM
I'm drinking... FLA at la this eve..

CrackerJack
05-16-2005, 10:23 PM
Not to defend O'Brien but you knows fans here would've been screaming bloody murder if they let Wilson or Casey go last season (traded them). I'm not sure he had a choice after the firesale that took place before he came in....but I am not saying he would've traded them either way - who knows ultimately.

Linder-Allen-O'Brien=

Burns-Smithers-Homer

traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:25 PM
What in the world was he talking about? Hadn't the game just begun?Yea, Welsh keeps on repeating the ignorant idea that a leadoff home run is often a "rally killer" to a possible big inning.

Maybe that's the psychological ploy he used when he was pitching or something. As another hitter trotted around the bases, you could see Chris mumbling on the mound "Ha, ha, tricked you into one of those rally killers , suckah."

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:26 PM
Not to defend O'Brien but you knows fans here would've been screaming bloody murder if they let Wilson or Casey go last season (traded them).



Yes there would have been gnashing of teeth if Wilson and/or Casey would have been sent eleswhere, but there's wailing and gnashing of teeth NOW as it is.

Winning takes care of the wailing.

SteelSD
05-16-2005, 10:26 PM
Not to defend O'Brien but you knows fans here would've been screaming bloody murder if they let Wilson or Casey go last season (traded them). I'm not sure he had a choice after the firesale that took place before he came in....but I am not saying he would've traded them either way - who knows ultimately.

Linder-Allen-O'Brien=

Burns-Smithers-Homer

There were a ton of folks here who were upset with the fact that O'Brien didn't deal Wilson at the deadline last year.

And most of the same folks felt that it was the best move to trade Casey while he was at peak value.

Reds Nd2
05-16-2005, 10:26 PM
I'm drinking... FLA at la this eve..

Me too, so whose going to drive us there. :)

westofyou
05-16-2005, 10:26 PM
Not to defend O'Brien but you knows fans here would've been screaming bloody murder if they let Wilson or Casey go last season (traded them). I'm not sure he had a choice after the firesale that took place before he came in....but I am not saying he would've traded them either way - who knows ultimately.

Linder-Allen-O'Brien=

Burns-Smithers-Homer

Yes agreed the luxury boxes will be filled this season. But they're going trade that cow for some beans elsewhere next.

flyer85
05-16-2005, 10:27 PM
Not to defend O'Brien but you knows fans here would've been screaming bloody murder if they let Wilson or Casey go last season (traded them). to be successful one must have the courage of their convictions even in the face of adversity. After watching DanO for 1.5 years I have no idea what his convictions might be.

ws1990reds
05-16-2005, 10:28 PM
Not to defend O'Brien but you knows fans here would've been screaming bloody murder if they let Wilson or Casey go last season (traded them). I'm not sure he had a choice after the firesale that took place before he came in....but I am not saying he would've traded them either way - who knows ultimately.

Linder-Allen-O'Brien=

Burns-Smithers-Homer

I think that fans here would have been a lot more forgiving if Wilson was let go. With him you know the story. With Casey, he's had issues with his weight (I think that if he worked on his conditioning and strength he would be a formidable slugger and a better runner) and in my opinion, his approach to the game (way too much fraternizing, not enough killer attitude).

ws1990reds
05-16-2005, 10:29 PM
Yes there would have been gnashing of teeth if Wilson and/or Casey would have been sent eleswhere, but there's wailing and gnashing of teeth NOW as it is.

Winning takes care of the wailing.

Well said! Where have you been? :devil:

creek14
05-16-2005, 10:30 PM
After watching DanO for 1.5 years I have no idea what his convictions might be.
To excel at doublespeak in the press?

traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:30 PM
I was thinking when they flashed Pauly's ever increasing ERA in the 7s at the beginning of the game how nice it would have been to have a little chuckle as we saw those numbers on someone else's payroll. Then, reality sunk in and realized that the money was being taken out of the Reds' account.

westofyou
05-16-2005, 10:32 PM
Nice throw on the run by Lopez, that's a place that he usually would sail the throw.

flyer85
05-16-2005, 10:32 PM
To excel at doublespeak in the press?he is good at that. he could have a future in politics.

traderumor
05-16-2005, 10:32 PM
Nice play Felipe, again. He seems to be going all Wily Mo. One of few bright spots in our future right now.

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:33 PM
that was the greatest AB I've ever seen.

westofyou
05-16-2005, 10:33 PM
The pitcher at bat was as far away from the plate as any player I have ever seen.

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:34 PM
The pitcher at bat was as far away from the plate as any player I have ever seen.

I think he was standing in the ondeck circle for that AB.

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:35 PM
Sean Casey is about as mobile as Stone Mountain.

KronoRed
05-16-2005, 10:36 PM
Is it just me or do Chris and George seem to enjoy a blowout loss?

Puffy
05-16-2005, 10:36 PM
The Reds really need to stop sucking.

westofyou
05-16-2005, 10:36 PM
I think he was standing in the ondeck circle for that AB.

I think he was in the Bronx.

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:36 PM
Coffee Is For Closers!

creek14
05-16-2005, 10:37 PM
Is it just me or do Chris and George seem to enjoy a blowout loss?
They get paid, win or lose.

letsgojunior
05-16-2005, 10:38 PM
The Reds really need to stop sucking.

Puffy always knows when to deliver the perfect one-liner. :thumbup:

flyer85
05-16-2005, 10:39 PM
If I was Randolph I would not send Koo out there. Reds hitters have only seen him once, I would think it would be better to save him to pitch to the lefties when needed.

Reds Nd2
05-16-2005, 10:39 PM
The pitcher at bat was as far away from the plate as any player I have ever seen.

Koo staring down Coffey. I don't care what team your a fan of, that was cool. Thats why I love baseball.

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:39 PM
I'm really curious about where all the optimists have run off to? If this run keeps up, we're going to see tumbleweeds blowing through the forums.

KronoRed
05-16-2005, 10:40 PM
I'm really curious about where all the optimists have run off to? If this run keeps up, we're going to see tumbleweeds blowing through the forums.

Now now, lets not start trouble..the Reds suck and we can all see it ;)

Reds Nd2
05-16-2005, 10:41 PM
The Reds really need to stop sucking.

Austin Kearns: "So stop sucking."

Still a great post Steel. I'm still laughing... :laugh:

Kc61
05-16-2005, 10:43 PM
The GM and manager should be forced to watch the tape of this game 50 times in succession. Then they should both be reassigned to non-baseball related tasks, like maybe ticket sales, ordering food for the concession stands, or possibly organizing the Reds caravan for next winter.

letsgojunior
05-16-2005, 10:43 PM
The announcers just mentioned that Jr has hit only 2 homers at Shea. Can I just add that I've seen both of them in person?:thumbup:

KronoRed
05-16-2005, 10:45 PM
The announcers just mentioned that Jr has hit only 2 homers at Shea. Can I just add that I've seen both of them in person?:thumbup:

What's the deal!?! get to the game!! ;)

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:45 PM
thank the lord, it's over.

KronoRed
05-16-2005, 10:45 PM
We only lost by 7

Raisor
05-16-2005, 10:46 PM
We only lost by 7


"you" need to stop sucking Krono!

:evil:

Kc61
05-16-2005, 10:52 PM
Just dying to read the post-game comment by Miley tonight. Some possibilities: "Things just didn't go our way tonight." "Paul had some tough luck on the mound." "Tough to win when a guy pitches like Benson tonight. He was really on." "We threw the ball around a bit, but that happens sometimes." "A couple of key hits here and there and maybe it would have come out different." "After a big series like we had in Philadelphia, there's bound to be a let down."

creek14
05-16-2005, 10:54 PM
Just dying to read the post-game comment by Miley tonight. Some possibilities: "Things just didn't go our way tonight." "Paul had some tough luck on the mound." "Tough to win when a guy pitches like Benson tonight. He was really on." "We threw the ball around a bit, but that happens sometimes." "A couple of key hits here and there and maybe it would have come out different." "After a big series like we had in Philadelphia, there's bound to be a let down."
Wow, you're good!!

Reds Nd2
05-16-2005, 10:54 PM
Boston @ Oakland
Beane vs. Epstein (ok, it's really Arroyo (4-0, 2.91 ERA) vs. Saarloos (1-2, 5.09 ERA)


Game time - 10:05 EST

KronoRed
05-16-2005, 10:54 PM
"you" need to stop sucking Krono!

:evil:

Nobody gives me post rep points..so I'll play playstation till 4am :devil:

traderumor
05-16-2005, 11:23 PM
I wasn't watching real close since Wilson was on the mound, just looked up when I heard "whack!!!!", but I saw him smoke one pitch at 88MPH, was working in the 84-86 range. Grande mentioned something about a fastball when he was on the mound, but at the speed he throws, he doesn't have one of those, but two different speed of change ups that float into the high part of the hitting zone, just like those 50 year old men do in BP. I think Nuxie used to throw harder to the Big Red Machine than that.

MWM
05-16-2005, 11:25 PM
Yea, Welsh keeps on repeating the ignorant idea that a leadoff home run is often a "rally killer" to a possible big inning.


That seems to contradict the idea of playing small ball for one run he often pushes.

traderumor
05-16-2005, 11:33 PM
That seems to contradict the idea of playing small ball for one run he often pushes.In this case, the Mets got home the run on a sac fly, sure it brought a tear to his eyes. Still, Reyes scored one run, and he scored on an out. Last I checked, he would have scored one run if the ball would have been hit about a foot further. Just chalk it up to stupid ideas that announcers repeat enough times they start to believe it themselves.

Falls City Beer
05-16-2005, 11:34 PM
Okay, thought-police, my rule-breaking post has been edited. I don't need any more NEGS. I get it. I'm in romper room. That'll teach me to report what's on network prime time television. Just looking for a little levity to lighten the mood of the game thread.

letsgojunior
05-16-2005, 11:38 PM
What's the deal!?! get to the game!! ;)

I'll be at the game Wednesday, but BTBDM will probably bench Jr (day game after a night game, Glavine on the mound). Which is unfortunate considering Junior has a spectacular HR/AB ratio in games which I attend.

ochre
05-16-2005, 11:40 PM
I was going to say "ok, no more starting game threads for Pedro", but then I realized we'll be out of game thread starters by the end of the season if we follow that rule.

KronoRed
05-16-2005, 11:52 PM
I'll be at the game Wednesday, but BTBDM will probably bench Jr (day game after a night game, Glavine on the mound). Which is unfortunate considering Junior has a spectacular HR/AB ratio in games which I attend.

Miley doesn't pay attention to numbers :(

Hope you have a nice time :)

creek14
05-17-2005, 01:10 AM
Okay, thought-police, my rule-breaking post has been edited. I don't need any more NEGS. I get it. I'm in romper room. That'll teach me to report what's on network prime time television. Just looking for a little levity to lighten the mood of the game thread.
Personally I prefer when the game thread goes off topic because how many times can you stand to type (or read) about the other team scoring?

Caveat Emperor
05-17-2005, 01:29 AM
I was going to say "ok, no more starting game threads for Pedro", but then I realized we'll be out of game thread starters by the end of the season if we follow that rule.

Maybe I'll start the game thread tomorrow...see if we can't shock the team into a victory by doing something completely out of the ordinary. :thumbup:

CrackerJack
05-17-2005, 01:44 AM
There were a ton of folks here who were upset with the fact that O'Brien didn't deal Wilson at the deadline last year.

And most of the same folks felt that it was the best move to trade Casey while he was at peak value.


Sorry by "here" I meant Cincinnati in general - not RedsZone at all - should've clarified that. They were looking at attendance and PR backlash issues rather than making good talent/need evaluations.

SteelSD
05-17-2005, 02:42 AM
Sorry by "here" I meant Cincinnati in general - not RedsZone at all - should've clarified that. They were looking at attendance and PR backlash issues rather than making good talent/need evaluations.

Oh. Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. I'm not from Cinci, so I really can't comment on local sentiment.

That being said, I don't think the Reds' powers-that-be have the first understanding of "action/reaction" dynamics. They shamelessly dumped payroll in 2003 without a second thought as to how it would affect public trust and resulting fan turnout to games. And then they had the gall to blame the attendance for a lack of payroll bump for 2004. And they covered it with "Payflex" nonsense because they thought their average fan wouldn't figure out what that actually meant.

What they should have figured out is that their average fan would understand moving a pitcher of Wilson's ilk if the "why" was properly explained to them.

And, if it made the team better, a Sean Casey loss isn't nearly devastating. Fans, across the board, respond to winning; even if that means that one of their favorite players isn't there anymore. For example, we Reds fans think little of Doug Mientkiewicz. But he had a very loyal following in the Twin Cities. In fact, I was at the game the day he was dealt to Boston and had to play from the opposing dugout. Mientkiewicz jerseys were, literally, everywhere. But it sure didn't hurt attendance. Why? Because the Twins were winning.

That's the secret. From my perspective, the two easiest times to trade a popular player while minimizing the impact on your attendance are when you're already winning (attendance will stay high) and when you're really really losing (you don't have non-diehards at the games anyway).

Last season, the Reds were in a death spiral and they already knew that they were going to have payroll room to work with in the offseason*. That's the perfect opportunity to move a popular player because you'll be able to mitigate attendance erosion by being able to make a number of moves in the offseason to demonstrate that you're committed to putting a good team on the field. Now, we know that the money was ill-spent over the offseason, but the obvious perception was that it was well spent. Opening day sold out in mere minutes. And it would have sold out in mere minutes without either Paul Wilson and Sean Casey- particularly if their 2005 contract dollars were allocated to recognizable talent (see: Milton, Eric). Now, I'd rather have good players rather than recognizable names, but we're talking about perception here.

*Editors note: Did anyone actually buy that the Reds didn't have clue one as to how much cash they might have available for 2005 acquisitions at the end of July?

In short, there was really no attendance to be lost by dealing either player. Yes, I know that the Casey extension and Wilson deal were events the FO could point to when proudly displaying their "commitment" to putting a winning team on the field. But the reality is that they could have spent and spun their way out of dealing both with virtually no impact at the turnstile for 2005. Heck, they'd spun their way out of worse situations. And if both trades actually netted real talent coming back AND had netted @10M of additional cash to play with in the offseason? Well, we might have seen a long-term attendance boost by being able to field a product that wasn't just supposed to compete- but one that actually did.

The problem with the Reds right now is that they think fans will swallow the "trying to win" line over and over again when what they're really hungry for is actual honest-to-God WINNING. They're a one-trick pony in this respect. Not winning? Yeah...but we're TRYING!!! They're running out of chances to use perception instead of reality as a revenue generation tool. And quickly.

In the end, even the most hardcore optimistic fan knows when he's been taken for a schmuck.

What's going to really end up biting the Reds' brass is that the fan base, IMHO, is now beginning to realize that they were sold blue sky in the middle of a thunderstorm.

You can only sell the idea of something for so long. After that, you have to deliver the goods.

pedro
05-17-2005, 02:45 AM
I was going to say "ok, no more starting game threads for Pedro", but then I realized we'll be out of game thread starters by the end of the season if we follow that rule.

I'd blame myself too. If it wasn't for the pitching.

We may need to go to a "no game thread when Wilson is pitching" strategy.

Caveat Emperor
05-17-2005, 03:17 AM
*Editors note: Did anyone actually buy that the Reds didn't have clue one as to how much cash they might have available for 2005 acquisitions at the end of July?

Another great and thought provoking post, Steel!

This line stuck out for me because I have to say: Yeah, I do buy that the Reds didn't have a clue as to how much cash they might have available for 2005 acquisitions.

There are a number of objective factors involved in this: unknown arbitration costs for players like Adam Dunn, uncertainty as to the amount of TV revenue that was going to be generated for this season, the fact that MLB hadn't yet signed it's multi-year agreement with XM Radio that netted each team an extra few million bucks, and the general knowledge that payroll had decreased in the previous years and the "offseason spending" in 2004 consisted in bringing in another washed up starter and a bench warmer who didn't know how to shovel snow properly.

Beyond that, however, I really do not believe that the Reds have a unified agenda from the top down.

Consider what we know about the franchise over the last 5 years: they've gone from a few bad days in Milwaukee away from making the playoffs to habitual bottom-dweller in the NL Central. Prior to this season, the last major player/personnel move they had made was trading for Ken Griffey Jr. They fired their free-wheeling GM for a guy who came to town riding the mantra of "cheap, cheaper, and cheapest," stressing a committment to younger players and development from within. Consistent with that goal, he trades away the best two BP arms the Reds had during the calander year 2004 (Rietsma and Jones) for minor leaguers. The only major FA brought in last year (Lidle) gets flipped for minor leaguers as well.

Despite this dogmatic approach to running the club, the offseason this past year resulted in a flurry of spending to fix problems. The club's plan had been to let youngsters compete in the rotation and let a youngster (Kearns) try his hand at 3rd base. Instead, the franchise TRADES a prospect for an established starter, signs a high-priced veteran to one of the richer contracts of this offseason, and goes and hires out a rent-a-3B on a 1 year deal. This action is completely contradictory to everything that was going on with this team up until the very day it had occured (ex: the "Austin Kearns Experiment" was a go up until the day they signed Randa, it seemed).

What do we conclude from this? We conclude that there are multiple voices at work inside of the Reds organization that are in direct contrast to one another. We also conclude that since there was a specific plan being followed up until the December/January moves were made, something changed IN THE OFFSEASON to necessitate adding additional payroll to the club. No matter what you think changed, I think the only way to look at this is to see that nobody had a clue what was going on until it happened, and that the spending that has occured this offseason was unplanned (and thus, poorly executed).

That's my take on the matter, at any rate.

creek14
05-17-2005, 08:18 AM
We may need to go to a "no game thread when Wilson is pitching" strategy.
Or Milton. And the game thread must be immediatly deleted as soon as anyone from the bullpen enters the game.

traderumor
05-17-2005, 11:01 AM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050517/SPT04/505170389/1071

Wilson fails to meet Reds' needs
Starting pitcher lasts just 51/3 innings, allowing six earned runs

By John Fay
Enquirer staff writer
Zoom AP Photo/Ed Betz
New York's Cliff Floyd hits a solo home run as Reds catcher Jason LaRue and home plate umpire Phil Cuzzi look on during the first inning at Shea Stadium.
ADVERTISEMENT
Zoom AP Photo/Ed Betz
Mets catcher Mike Piazza reaches to tag out Felipe Lopez during the sixth inning.
Zoom AP Photo/Ed Betz
Mets pitcher Kris Benson gave up only four hits Monday.

NEW YORK - Reds manager Dave Miley said it before the game - sort of wistfully and to no one in particular.

"We've got to get a good one from Paulie tonight," Miley said.

Paul Wilson's outing against the New York Mets Monday wasn't quite what Miley had in mind.

Wilson suffered his fourth straight loss as the Reds fell to the Mets 9-2 before a crowd of 19,963 at Shea Stadium.

The Reds have lost 14 of their last 18 games.

The Reds were abysmal: They made two errors that led to two unearned runs and only managed four hits off New York starter Kris Benson.

The continued struggles of the top two starters, Wilson and Eric Milton, have to be the Reds' chief concerns.

Wilson has given up at least five runs and has not gotten through the sixth inning in any of his last three starts. Overall, he is 1-5 with a 7.77 ERA. But his struggles go back much further. He is 3-8 with a 6.29 ERA since the All-Star break last year.

Wilson insists he's fine physically.

"My job is to go out there every fifth day and keep my team in the game," Wilson said. "I'm struggling."

With an off day Thursday, Elizardo Ramirez coming off a stellar start and Brandon Claussen close to healthy, the Reds may consider pushing Wilson back a turn to get him straightened out.

But that's not likely.

"He's one of our top guys," Miley said. "You're pulling like heck for him. The velocity's not what we're used to seeing or what he's used to throwing."

Wilson is pitching between 84-86 mph now. He occasionally hits 89. Last year - when he was doing well - he pitched from 87-89 and occasionally hit 91.

"We haven't seen that this year," pitching coach Don Gullett said.

Wilson downplays the velocity factor.

"I try not to pay attention to the radar gun," Wilson said. "That's not what pitching is about. It's keeping the ball down and making pitches."

Gullett said he doesn't think the lack of velocity is a mechanical problem.

"In my opinion, it's not," he said.

The Reds are in deep trouble for this year and beyond if they don't get Wilson on track. The 32-year-old right-hander was re-signed as a free agent in November. He is due $3.6 million this year, $3.75 million for 2006. There's a $5.15 million club option for '07 with an $850,000 buyout.

Jose Reyes started the Mets' first inning with a first-pitch hit into the right-field corner for a triple. Wilson got former Red Mike Cameron on a called third strike. Carlos Beltran got Reyes home with a shot to center that Ken Griffey Jr. ran down.

Still, it was two outs, bases empty, a chance for a relatively easy first.

But Cliff Floyd hit an 87 mph fastball into the second deck in right for his 11th home run of the year.

The Reds got a run back in the second. Adam Dunn singled and went all the way to third on a wild pitch. Jason LaRue eventually got him home with a two-out single.

Wilson was rocked again in the second. Doug Mientkiewicz singled to start the inning. David Wright followed with a double. Mientkiewicz scored on a Kaz Matsui sacrifice fly.

Benson followed with a single. Wright would have held at third, but the ball went off left fielder Dunn's glove for an error. That put the Reds in a 4-1 hole.

"I can't stay out of the big inning," Wilson said. "You've got to control the damage. I haven't been able to do that lately."

Wilson finally found some rhythm after the second. He only allowed one hit in the third through fifth innings.

The Reds got back in it in the sixth. Ryan Freel led off with a walk. Felipe Lopez got him home with a double to center. Lopez went to third on Sean Casey's groundout.

Lopez tried to score on Ken Griffey Jr.'s lineout to right, but Cameron threw him out by 3 feet.

But Wilson was unable to hold it there. He retired only one of the first four batters in the sixth inning and that was on a sacrifice fly. The Reds had to bring in Ricky Stone to get the final two outs of the inning.

When the sixth was over, the Reds were down 7-2.

"It kind of got a little bit out of hand," Miley said. "It's hard to catch up."

Any confidence anyone had in Miley and Gullett to shore up this sinking ship better find a lifeboat when they are making comments like those after their opening day starter's ERA approaches the 8 mark. So, Miley is loyal to Wilson, who, believe it or not, is looking worse than Jimmy Haynes did last year, yet he took the potshots at Jimmay in the press. Interesting dichotomy for the same level of performance.

westofyou
05-17-2005, 11:03 AM
Gullett said he doesn't think the lack of velocity is a mechanical problem.

"In my opinion, it's not," he said.

Translation

I can't fix it.

traderumor
05-17-2005, 11:07 AM
Translation

I can't fix it.

Yup, too bad he didn't figure that out when he was asked whether Wilson would be a good investment. Of course, he recommended bring in Ortiz and Milton so he could teach them a two seamer. The evidence is mounting, the emperor has no clothes.

Moosie52
05-17-2005, 11:15 AM
Hal McCoy speculated last night that Wilson works out too hard, harder than anyone he's ever seen, and that maybe he should lighten up. It could be draining his strength.

traderumor
05-17-2005, 11:20 AM
Hal McCoy speculated last night that Wilson works out too hard, harder than anyone he's ever seen, and that maybe he should lighten up. It could be draining his strength.I suggested that awhile back. I've wondered if that isn't counterproductive during the season.

ochre
05-17-2005, 11:46 AM
"I try not to pay attention to the radar gun," Wilson said. "That's not what pitching is about. It's keeping the ball down and making pitches."
actually its about getting guys out.

princeton
05-17-2005, 11:51 AM
too bad he didn't figure that out when he was asked whether Wilson would be a good investment.

I remember when the Expos pitching coach (I forget his name) was consulted about the Mariners' Mark Langston. "I like him," he said. Then, after the Expos traded Randy Johnson and Brian Holman for Langston, the Expos' pitching coach said, "I did say that I liked Langston, but I didn't say that I liked him THAT much"

CrackerJack
05-17-2005, 11:53 AM
In short, there was really no attendance to be lost by dealing either player. Yes, I know that the Casey extension and Wilson deal were events the FO could point to when proudly displaying their "commitment" to putting a winning team on the field. But the reality is that they could have spent and spun their way out of dealing both with virtually no impact at the turnstile for 2005.

Yep, no argument here - but no one knew Wilson would be THIS bad after last season and the shock value of the Reds' actually spending $25m on "anyone" let alone a starting pitcher probably increase season ticket sales alone.

The problem with this franchise is John Allen. He has no idea how to take good risks or rely on baseball people to make sound judgements for him regarding talent. To him it's all about friendly players doing the bounce and hugging each other, and having a "family friend atmosphere" at the ballpark which encourages casual fans to spend money there. Winning is secondary - he has a defeatist attitude that they can't compete with the big market teams, never will unless they get lucky by developing a ton of stars from within - and I'm guessing we'll never see a change in the way they operate while he is running things.

He got his job by default - versus by merit when the club was in financial woes - and it's hurt the Reds badly ever since.

traderumor
05-17-2005, 12:04 PM
I remember when the Expos pitching coach (I forget his name) was consulted about the Mariners' Mark Langston. "I like him," he said. Then, after the Expos traded Randy Johnson and Brian Holman for Langston, the Expos' pitching coach said, "I did say that I liked Langston, but I didn't say that I liked him THAT much" :laugh: Good anecdote. It seems Gully "likes" everyone they ask him about and advises that he can help him.

Obviously, being a coach, he is going to see kinks that he can work on, but this nonsense of bringing in gopher ball machines and claiming the fix is teaching them a two seamer is over the edge and reveals serious philosophical and practical flaws in procuring pitching talent.