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Matt700wlw
05-20-2005, 05:41 PM
Per Seg at the stadium

Details coming....

RedsFan74
05-20-2005, 05:43 PM
Wow!! I never would've thought the Reds would eat his contract. Of course, I thought the same thing about Jimmah Haynes.


Is this a sign that WMP will be activated for tonight's game?

OnBaseMachine
05-20-2005, 05:44 PM
Rich Aurilia hits below .200 and starts everyday. Not to mention him being a bad player the past 4 years.

Jimenez, coming off a good year, struggles a month and half and gets waived.

I hate this FO.

DeadRedinCT
05-20-2005, 05:45 PM
I don't agree with this move. The guy has/had trade value.

Matt700wlw
05-20-2005, 05:46 PM
REDS PROMOTE INFIELDER LUIS LOPEZ FROM LOUISVILLE

2B D’Angelo Jimenez Designated For Assignment



CINCINNATI - The Cincinnati Reds today selected from Class AAA Louisville the contract of IF Luis Lopez and designated for assignment 2B D’Angelo Jimenez.

Lopez, 34, will be in uniform number 15 for tonight’s 7:10 p.m. game against the Cleveland Indians.

Lopez has spent the entire season at Louisville, where he hit .264 with 8 doubles, 1 HR and 9 RBI in 29 games. For the Bats he played in 23 games at shortstop and 2 games at second base.

Lopez has appeared in 704 Major League games with the Padres, Mets, Brewers and Orioles. His bio begins on page 120 of the media guide.

Jimenez, 27, this season for the Reds hit .229 with 5 RBI in 35 games and 23 starts.

realreds1
05-20-2005, 05:46 PM
I don't get it either. I mean, Jiminez wasn't playing well. But, look at the pitching staff, look in the bullpen. There are quite a few half-tossers in there who should be "waived." Of course, there's the argument about not having anyone to put into the bullpen, but ... hey... even a AAA kid can outpitch these million dollar tomato cans at this point.

Joseph
05-20-2005, 05:46 PM
Luis Lopez recalled, no WMP.

Matt700wlw
05-20-2005, 05:46 PM
Rich Aurilia hits below .200 and starts everyday. Not to mention him being a bad player the past 4 years.

Jimenez, coming off a good year, struggles a month and half and gets waived.

I hate this FO.

Aurilia is on the DL -- can't waive him yet

Joseph
05-20-2005, 05:48 PM
Aurilia is on the DL -- can't waive him yet


They sure as heck better waive Aurilla. His performance and D'lo's are virtually the same, only D'lo is still young.

Bergolla is in the starting lineup tonight per 1360.

Matt700wlw
05-20-2005, 05:48 PM
They sure as heck better waive Aurilla. His performance and D'lo's are virtually the same, only D'lo is still young.

Bergolla is in the starting lineup tonight per 1360.

My prediction is that the return of Machado will lead to the release of Aurilia

kyred14
05-20-2005, 05:49 PM
idiotic, i can't think of much more to say.

DeadRedinCT
05-20-2005, 05:49 PM
Bergolla is in the starting lineup tonight per 1360.

I figured Miley would start Luis Lopez at 2b tonight.

NJReds
05-20-2005, 05:49 PM
Typical. Go for the "low hanging fruit" and avoid the tough decisions (Wilson's been no better. Neither has Graves. Neither has LaRue). D'Lo will get another chance, somewhere.

Luis Lopez??? I'd rather see Encarnacion get his first shot to be everyday 3B...

realreds1
05-20-2005, 05:49 PM
When available, if we could have our way, please waive the following "half-letes":

Ben Weber
David Weathers
Rich Aurillia


Maybe I'm wrong - and please correct me if I am - but... isn't it policy to only pay the waived/released player's salary for the season *if* that player doesn't resign with another team that same season?

NJReds
05-20-2005, 05:50 PM
My prediction is that the return of Machado will lead to the release of Aurilia

That's a pretty safe prediction.

I'd even go as far to say that the return of Aurilia from the DL will lead to his release. That is if Bergolla shows that he belongs on the ML roster.

Cedric
05-20-2005, 05:51 PM
I guess Jiminez must be a total loser in the clubhouse. Everything points to this being more than just a baseball move. After all the rumblings from San Diego and Chicago I guess it makes sense.

realreds1
05-20-2005, 05:52 PM
I guess Jiminez must be a total loser in the clubhouse. Everything points to this being more than just a baseball move. After all the rumblings from San Diego and Chicago I guess it makes sense.


Well, at least he can't get into a fight with Ryan Freel again this season!

kyred14
05-20-2005, 05:53 PM
what does this accomplish?

BuckeyeRedleg
05-20-2005, 05:54 PM
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Could this go deeper I wonder. Maybe, DLo was a cancer in the clubhouse. He sure didn't appear to be a great shape to start off the year.

Heck, nothing surprises me anymore with this front office. They'll probably start Lopez over Freel and FeLo. Morons.

Red Leader
05-20-2005, 05:54 PM
Rich Aurilia hits below .200 and starts everyday. Not to mention him being a bad player the past 4 years.

Jimenez, coming off a good year, struggles a month and half and gets waived.

I hate this FO.

Completely agree with you. :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

BOOOOOO!


This front office just has too many idiots that don't know how to manage a roster.

princeton
05-20-2005, 05:56 PM
slide next time, knock him down, somethin'

LincolnparkRed
05-20-2005, 05:57 PM
I can't say that I like getting rid of Jimenez over Aurilla but a message had to be sent and since Bergolla, Freel and Lopez brothers can all play 2b than what did we really lose. In these last few weeks Jimenez had only 2 errors but remember the fact that the meltdown vs. St louis started with him not getting the throw over to turn two. He was also on his 3rd team and although he is young he got the tag as lazy which will never help. If this is what it takes to shake things up great but I think the problems start off the field. (DanO I'm talking to you)

WVPacman
05-20-2005, 05:57 PM
My prediction is that the return of Machado will lead to the release of Aurilia

Matt lets hope so b/c he sucks just as bad as DJ did on this team.I can't figure out thow why did'nt the reds trade DJ and try to get somebody back instead of just releasing him.Is our FO really that dumb??

CalSean
05-20-2005, 05:57 PM
I am absolutely beside myself. I can't flippin believe this move. It is obivious to me that Dan O'Brien has absolutely no baseball knowledge. Is this his idea of a shakeup? Is this supposed to fire up the team? The only thing we can hope, is that this is just the beginning of another move in play. Stay tuned.

Move over Mike Brown, Carl Lindner will now take your thrown.

fs43340
05-20-2005, 05:58 PM
Come on, releasing Jiminez is nothing short term. Can Freel pitch? Do something to improve things for the long term!

osuceltic
05-20-2005, 05:58 PM
Jiminez's on-field struggles (not just at the plate ... defensively, on the basepaths ... everywhere) and his well known off-field, let's say, moodiness, made him the guy to go to send a message. I get the feeling Aurilia is well respected among the guys in that clubhouse. Jiminez's attitude issues could be overlooked when he was performing. When he's lousy across the board, those issues aren't so easy to ignore.

And this opens the door for Freel to play more at second. Freel isn't going to play short, so cutting Aurilia means you're down to FeLo and LuLo at short -- not good.

I'm all for this move. But some around here will complain about anything.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-20-2005, 05:58 PM
Hope somebody picks him up so that we care not stuck with the 2 million he's owed.

Strikes Out Looking
05-20-2005, 05:59 PM
What this accomplishes: Ryan Freel will play everyday and bat leadoff. One less person to have to fit into the rotation with Kearns, Dunn, and Pena.

NJReds
05-20-2005, 05:59 PM
Hope somebody picks him up so that we care not stuck with the 2 million he's owed.

I believe that if someone picks him up that they pay him the ML minimum and the Reds pay the rest. I could be mistaken, but I think that's how it works.

CTA513
05-20-2005, 06:01 PM
I think I would have tried to get something for him.
Like a minor leaguer or something, just not waive him.

***edit*** Does this mean hes released, or just sent on assignment?

CincyFan
05-20-2005, 06:02 PM
I think I would have tried to get something for him.
Like a minor leaguer or something, just not waive him.

There are prolly more things that are going to happen

BuckeyeRedleg
05-20-2005, 06:02 PM
I believe that if someone picks him up that they pay him the ML minimum and the Reds pay the rest. I could be mistaken, but I think that's how it works.

Wow. That sucks. Why not at least shop him around? Well, maybe they did, it just seems like somebody smart out there would have taken him for a PTBNL.

Another brain-toot by the front-office. Nothing knew.

I think the message to the team would have been more powerful had we gutted the whole front-office. Oh well.

CalSean
05-20-2005, 06:02 PM
Jiminez's on-field struggles (not just at the plate ... defensively, on the basepaths ... everywhere) and his well known off-field, let's say, moodiness, made him the guy to go to send a message. I get the feeling Aurilia is well respected among the guys in that clubhouse. Jiminez's attitude issues could be overlooked when he was performing. When he's lousy across the board, those issues aren't so easy to ignore.

And this opens the door for Freel to play more at second. Freel isn't going to play short, so cutting Aurilia means you're down to FeLo and LuLo at short -- not good.

I'm all for this move. But some around here will complain about anything.

Very good points. My problem is that this does not fix the problem. One word: Pitching. We need to DL some players like Wilson and bring up a pitching prospect or two if nothing else, for a fresh change in the rotation.

This move does absolutely nothing. Yes its complaining, but I think it is a valid complaint. :)

realreds1
05-20-2005, 06:03 PM
Remember, this is the organization that will not allow ball boys to toss freshly hit foul balls to the little kids in the stands. I hadn't seen something like that since I played little league.

Of course, we only had three baseballs when I played little league, so the fans (i.e. mom and dad) couldn't keep a foul pop if they wanted to see the kiddies play!

penantboundreds
05-20-2005, 06:04 PM
This is not the move I was looking for, but this does no harm to the team, he is slow, so pinch running him was out of the question. Freel is much better than him, IMO. The problem is that Dlo was even payed 2 mil in the beginning, a Dlo type player is one that can be found on a lot of minor league clubs, a guy with limited power/range, with a decent average. It isn't like we just waived Kearns who has upside, Dlo is maxed out, we know what we lost. Also Dlo's contract might send a message to LaRue and others...because we didn't cut a cheap contract. I say good move and it's a start of the shakeup that needs to be done.

Reds Fanatic
05-20-2005, 06:04 PM
I***edit*** Does this mean hes released, or just sent on assignment?
He has been designated for assignment which means he would have to go through waivers unless we could trade him in the next 10 days

butlerbulldogs
05-20-2005, 06:05 PM
terrible move, he is a fine bench player and a decent starter at second....he is way better than Aurillia!! horrible move

WVPacman
05-20-2005, 06:05 PM
Do you guys think that the Reds front office is trying to send a message to all the other players on DJ's release.Could this be a way of telling the others that if you don't get your head out of your ass you will be sent packing.Or are they that dumb to just release a player without trying to trade for someone better.

CalSean
05-20-2005, 06:05 PM
This is not the move I was looking for, but this does no harm to the team, he is slow, so pinch running him was out of the question. Freel is much better than him, IMO. The problem is that Dlo was even payed 2 mil in the beginning, a Dlo type player is one that can be found on a lot of minor league clubs, a guy with limited power/range, with a decent average. It isn't like we just waived Kearns who has upside, Dlo is maxed out, we know what we lost. Also Dlo's contract might send a message to LaRue and others...because we didn't cut a cheap contract. I say good move and it's a start of the shakeup that needs to be done.


As long as it is indeed the start of something bigger. This move alone, does nothing.

johngalt
05-20-2005, 06:06 PM
Designating Jimenez for assignment is a good move. His play has been supbar on offense, and he doesn't do us any favors defensively either. Plus, I'm sure there's probably other factors playing into it that we may not know about.

Now, who will be victim #2? We can only hope Rich Aurilia will be packing shortly.

Matt700wlw
05-20-2005, 06:07 PM
As long as it is indeed the start of something bigger. This move alone, does nothing.

And standing pat did what....?

BuckeyeRedleg
05-20-2005, 06:10 PM
Maybe this is the spark needed to wake this team up and take them to the promised land of 70-92.

Go DanO! You wild man, you.

Matt700wlw
05-20-2005, 06:11 PM
Maybe this is the spark needed to wake this team up and take them to the promised land of 70-92.

Go DanO! You wild man, you.

:laugh:

fs43340
05-20-2005, 06:12 PM
Do you guys think that the Reds front office is trying to send a message to all the other players on DJ's release.

They aren't that smart! If they were, they would release Wilson or Milton. That's a message for you and not releasing a 2nd tier second baseman.

butlerbulldogs
05-20-2005, 06:14 PM
the message being sent is watch, we will keep releasing anyone halfway decent, until we have a roster that should be acheiving the current record, so guys like weber, aurillia, graves are definitely safe!

nc redsfan
05-20-2005, 06:14 PM
This management can't please hardly any of you on here can they!!! All I've read for the last month is how they should get rid of Jimenez, and when they do, it's a stupid move. Did you ever think that maybe they couldn't get anything for him? They got enough middle of the road players in their minor league system now the way it is. They did what was best in my opinion, they cut loose what I feel from articles I was reading, a quickly forming cancer in the clubhouse, who was showing he didn't really care if the team he was playing on won or lost. He didn't like being benched even though he wasn't even hitting his weight, and made sure everyone knew it. I agree, Wilson should go, but unfortunatley I don't think his contract will allow that. They got their replacement for Jimenez in Muchado when he is healthy, he is better then anything they could have gotten for Jimenez. You guys need to look at the whole picture, I never saw fans who were so unhappy with any move this team makes.

Moonlite Graham
05-20-2005, 06:15 PM
I have absolutely no issue with this move, as long as it is one of several over the course of the next few weeks that need to be done. (The others involving RA, Weber, et.al are hopefully obvious)

Jimenez is one of several on this team (see Graves, Danny) who project such a cavalier attitude both in the field and at the plate that it just drives me insane.

Jimenez's high opinion of his batting eye, which has led to countless taken third strike (he is not the only one guilty of this) and inability or stubborness to do the little things in the game to help you team win, are reasons that he shouldnt let the door hit him in the rear on the way out.

Fair thee well D'Angelo....we'll hardly miss ya.

savafan
05-20-2005, 06:17 PM
I can't believe the Yankees wouldn't consider Jiminez. He'd have to be a better option than Cano

CTA513
05-20-2005, 06:17 PM
After thinking about it for a little while, I think they should have considered bringing up a Catcher instead of an infielder.

butlerbulldogs
05-20-2005, 06:17 PM
This management can't please hardly any of you on here can they!!! All I've read for the last month is how they should get rid of Jimenez, and when they do, it's a stupid move. Did you ever think that maybe they couldn't get anything for him? They got enough middle of the road players in their minor league system now the way it is. They did what was best in my opinion, they cut loose what I feel from articles I was reading, a quickly forming cancer in the clubhouse, who was showing he didn't really care if the team he was playing on won or lost. He didn't like being benched even though he wasn't even hitting his weight, and made sure everyone knew it. I agree, Wilson should go, but unfortunatley I don't think his contract will allow that. They got their replacement for Jimenez in Muchado when he is healthy, he is better then anything they could have gotten for Jimenez. You guys need to look at the whole picture, I never saw fans who were so unhappy with any move this team makes.

nc reds fan please pull up one of my over 400 posts from the last three years where i have said this
then i will apologize

fs43340
05-20-2005, 06:17 PM
This management can't please hardly any of you on here can they!!! All I've read for the last month is how they should get rid of Jimenez, and when they do, it's a stupid move. Did you ever think that maybe they couldn't get anything for him? They got enough middle of the road players in their minor league system now the way it is. They did what was best in my opinion, they cut loose what I feel from articles I was reading, a quickly forming cancer in the clubhouse, who was showing he didn't really care if the team he was playing on won or lost. He didn't like being benched even though he wasn't even hitting his weight, and made sure everyone knew it. I agree, Wilson should go, but unfortunatley I don't think his contract will allow that. They got their replacement for Jimenez in Muchado when he is healthy, he is better then anything they could have gotten for Jimenez. You guys need to look at the whole picture, I never saw fans who were so unhappy with any move this team makes.

I think everyone sees this as a minor move and not anything to help matters like trying to help the pitching.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-20-2005, 06:17 PM
nc, who on here wanted Jimenez released?

By the way, in case you missed it, DLo was back on track and the OPS was rising rapidly.

This was another dumb move by an inept organization.

savafan
05-20-2005, 06:19 PM
Do you guys think that the Reds front office is trying to send a message to all the other players on DJ's release.

Oh, I believe that's what DanO thinks he's doing. I also believe he's wrong. You want to send a message, you target one of those "comfortable" players.

This front office has become too comfortable as well.

Red Leader
05-20-2005, 06:21 PM
Oh, I believe that's what DanO thinks he's doing. I also believe he's wrong.

I believe he is wrong as well. If you want to send a message you do it by cutting someone that actually improves your major league roster by getting rid of them, not by making it worse and getting nothing to help your organization in the future. :thumbdown

Idiots.

WVPacman
05-20-2005, 06:21 PM
The main thing that made me mad about DJ,is he never showed NO emotion on the field.Atleast Larue,Casey,Dunn and some others throw their bat in anger when they get out.DJ on the other hand if he just struckout he would walk back to the dugout smiling like he done something good.

I can't stand players like that!! you don't win with players like him.I want players that is willing to sacrfice their body everyday and wants to win.Im glad DJ is gone yes I wish they would have traded him but they did'nt.

RFS62
05-20-2005, 06:22 PM
If he's designated for assignment, maybe there's a deal already in the works. Maybe not. I'd be very disappointed with the front office if they let him go for nothing.

It sounds like one more indication that the front office highly values clubhouse chemistry and character. I'm all for both, but never at the expense of performance.

You don't have to finish last because you're a nice guy. But if you are a nice guy, you better be a stone cold killer on the field, and a lot of ours aren't.

BrooklynRedz
05-20-2005, 06:24 PM
Not sure I understand the belly-aching over this move. DJ hasn't played well, and his demeanor on the field and in the media has been very negative. Will this move alone help this team? Hardly, but then I would assume there will be additional minor corresponding moves. Will they make the difference in turning this season around? Not likely. Reds fans are going to have to suck it up and realize that the fix for what ails this club is some time off...as in 2008, if not later. The FO will never admit that pubicly, hence the grasping at straws (ie Milton, Ortiz, Aurilia). But you don't broke a franchise as broken as this one overnight with signing of a homer-happy lefty. So they tried and it didn't work out. They went looking to capture lightning in a bottle and they failed miserably. Unless they spent the kitty that would have gone to lock up Dunn and Pena (maybe Kearns?), then I'm not sure what the harm was. All this goes back to the Clement episode. If DO had been able to close that deal, and he was much closer than any of us realized at the time, we're having a different conversation right now. Oh well. The only thing they can do now is learn from the lesson and hope someone comes calling on Milton.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-20-2005, 06:27 PM
I'm of the belief that clubhouse chemistry is very overrated.

In fact, IMO winning brings chemistry.

Sometimes it doesn't.

Johnny Footstool
05-20-2005, 06:28 PM
Jimenez's high opinion of his batting eye, which has led to countless taken third strike (he is not the only one guilty of this) and inability or stubborness to do the little things in the game to help you team win, are reasons that he shouldnt let the door hit him in the rear on the way out.

His "inability to do the little things?" What, like working deep into the count, which he does as well as anyone in the league? You don't see that as a "little thing" that helps the team win?

BTW - Jimenez's OPS for May is .763, which is decent for a middle infielder. And over the last 7 days, his OPS is .889. In other words, *he was coming out of his slump.*

But some people closed their eyes too soon.

This was a dumb, dumb move.

RFS62
05-20-2005, 06:28 PM
I think not sliding the other day was the straw that broke the camels back. It was symbolic of the malaise that's infected this team.

So many guys performing below even their mediocre norms. Something has to be shaken up, I just don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot doing it by getting nothing.

butlerbulldogs
05-20-2005, 06:30 PM
still waiting, ncredsfan
lesson learned, don't call "everyone" out if you don't back it up

CalSean
05-20-2005, 06:31 PM
And standing pat did what....?

Absolutely nothing. You are correct. All I was saying that if this is the "big" move, it is not going to be enough.

I am opened minded enough to agree that this move may have been good for other reasons, but without some changes in the pitching department, this move alone isn't going to keep pitchers like Wilson and Milton from giving up 6 and 7 runs a game. Unless Luis Lopez can pitch, we are still in a pitching quagmire.

Moonlite Graham
05-20-2005, 06:34 PM
[QUOTE=Johnny Footstool]His "inability to do the little things?" What, like working deep into the count, which he does as well as anyone in the league? You don't see that as a "little thing" that helps the team win?

Nope, cause working that count more often than not had him looking catatonic as strike three wizzed right by him, time and time again.

And little things like swinging at the first pitch on sunday with runners on 2nd and 3rd and a wild pitcher throwing.....hows that for working the count.

Not sliding wednesday on play and then flat falling flat on your face trying to score on another.

Little things that dont show up in box scores, or in idiotic fantasy stats.

Johnny Footstool
05-20-2005, 06:36 PM
Nope, cause working that count more often than not had him looking catatonic as strike three wizzed right by him, time and time again.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that by seeing 5 pitches per at-bat he was actually helping the team see more of the pitcher's repetoire and helping get the starting pitcher out of the game. That's basic strategy.

And you're still ignoring the fact that he was coming out of his slump. But don't let that stop you from hating.


Little things that dont show up in box scores, or in idiotic fantasy stats.

Is OPS an "idiotic fantasy stat?"

The Baumer
05-20-2005, 06:38 PM
still waiting, ncredsfan
lesson learned, don't call "everyone" out if you don't back it up

Oh snap! These guys are about to throw down.

Tommyjohn25
05-20-2005, 06:38 PM
I don't mind the move, as long as it leads to something greater, as most others have already stated.

Moonlite Graham
05-20-2005, 06:39 PM
It is when evaluating a player as whole, not just the offensive part of his game.

Signed

The Guru

Matt700wlw
05-20-2005, 06:41 PM
I guess Dan now realizes he shouldn't have signed him in the first place.....

Johnny Footstool
05-20-2005, 06:42 PM
It is when evaluating a player as whole, not just the offensive part of his game.

Signed

The Guru

But by ignoring his OPS and his ability to work the count, you're *not* evaluating the player as a whole.

Reds Nd2
05-20-2005, 06:43 PM
You guys need to look at the whole picture, I never saw fans who were so unhappy with any move this team makes.

It's because any move this team makes is so ridiculous, as to be laughable. This move does nothing to help the Reds and may well prove to be more detrimental than keeping D'Lo on the bench.

The Baumer
05-20-2005, 06:46 PM
It's because any move this team makes is so ridiculous, as to be laughable. This move does nothing to help the Reds and may well prove to be more detrimental than keeping D'Lo on the bench.

Not if DLo throws a tantrum everytime he is sat.

cincyinco
05-20-2005, 06:47 PM
I for one wont miss watching D'Lo take a called 3rd strike down the middle and then complaining that it was a bad call. Shaking his head in disbelief. Swing at the ball!! But as a whole I agree, other, better moves could have been made at this time. Send a message to the pitchers.

Reds Nd2
05-20-2005, 06:47 PM
Not if DLo throws a tantrum everytime he is sat.

People keep bringing that up B. I must have missed it, because I don't remember any attitude problems with D'Lo. What exactly did he do?

RedsIn07
05-20-2005, 06:52 PM
There was a story that he and Freel got in to a fight last year at a hotel
http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/09/04/red1nte.html

KronoRed
05-20-2005, 06:53 PM
Only a good deal if Aurilia went with him..

WMR
05-20-2005, 06:54 PM
As inept as this front office has shown itself to be, I've gotta think that there is more to this than meets the eye. Something behind the scenes must have been going on that led to D'Angelo's release...

As hopeful as I am that that is the case, however, I am not saying that I don't believe that the exact opposite *could* be true and that our floundering General Manager just committed another--how many is it by now?--mistake with a situation that could have been handled differently and in a method that would have led to the overall betterment of the Reds. :cry: :help: :cry: :rolleyes: :(

Gallen5862
05-20-2005, 07:11 PM
I think we will trade him during the 10 day period. I think we can get at least an a ball player for him.

Walkerforpres
05-20-2005, 07:13 PM
This is certainly surprising, but I, like others that have posted, have a hard time believing that this is a sole "shakeup" move. Something must have happened behind the scenes to make the release of Jimenez imminent. Either his reputation preceded him or he exploded over his lack of playing time or something. You have to expect a lot of tension in the clubhouse of a severely underachieving, struggling team like the Reds, and I would be convinced because of the severity of this move that Jimenez truly screwed up.

Still.......couldn't they have handled it better? They'll never get rid of his salary this way.

schroomytunes
05-20-2005, 07:24 PM
If I'm not mistaken I think the thinking behind this move is this.
1)DFA-10 days for someone to make an offer for him
2)10 days pass no one wants him, he can then be sent to AAA at his current salary or if he chooses decline the minor league assignment, and become a FA.
3) If he chooses to be a FA, then he signs a new deal with another team, and forfiets his current contract.

IMHO I think he'll choose the FA route to be able to begin with a new team that will let him start, thus freeing us of his remaining 2 million on his contract. :)

TheBurn
05-20-2005, 07:26 PM
I also think there is "more" to this. And Luis Lopez?
I mean he had pretty much the same numbers as D'Lo but in the minors!
:confused:

KronoRed
05-20-2005, 07:26 PM
Pretty sure unless we trade him we will be paying him, even if he says no to the minors.

Walkerforpres
05-20-2005, 07:27 PM
I also think there is "more" to this. And Luis Lopez?
I mean he had pretty much the same numbers as D'Lo but in the minors!
:confused:

Probably only until Pena gets back......whenever that may be.

WVRedsFan
05-20-2005, 07:31 PM
If he's designated for assignment, maybe there's a deal already in the works. Maybe not. I'd be very disappointed with the front office if they let him go for nothing.

It sounds like one more indication that the front office highly values clubhouse chemistry and character. I'm all for both, but never at the expense of performance.

You don't have to finish last because you're a nice guy. But if you are a nice guy, you better be a stone cold killer on the field, and a lot of ours aren't.

Agree totally.

You have to wonder if D'Angelo was the one waved because it would cause less upheaval in the clubhouse. Release Rich A and all heck breaks loose. Release Jiminez and you get an "eh" for a reaction.

CincyRedsFan30
05-20-2005, 07:49 PM
I'm glad O'Brien identified that the team's biggest problem was offense. This move will be sure to correct that problem. :rolleyes:

Johnny Footstool
05-20-2005, 08:12 PM
I'm glad O'Brien identified that the team's biggest problem was offense. This move will be sure to correct that problem.

:laugh:

Aronchis
05-20-2005, 09:30 PM
DanO is a man with a plan, sadly, that plan is of naps, stretching and a evening meal.

The baseball side :confused: Whats that ;)

Seriously, if they deal Jimenez, then so be it, but if they just let him walk, that is a waste of time and further proof napping and baseball don't mix.

johngalt
05-20-2005, 09:30 PM
I'm glad O'Brien identified that the team's biggest problem was offense. This move will be sure to correct that problem. :rolleyes:

I'm sure Jimenez's statistical shortcomings are from the only reason for this move.

KySteveH
05-21-2005, 01:09 AM
If I'm not mistaken I think the thinking behind this move is this.
1)DFA-10 days for someone to make an offer for him
2)10 days pass no one wants him, he can then be sent to AAA at his current salary or if he chooses decline the minor league assignment, and become a FA.
3) If he chooses to be a FA, then he signs a new deal with another team, and forfiets his current contract.

IMHO I think he'll choose the FA route to be able to begin with a new team that will let him start, thus freeing us of his remaining 2 million on his contract. :)

The Reds press guide shows that Jimenez had 4 years, 81 days ML service at the start of the year. That means he's around 25 days from having 5 years in. So I assume the Reds have placed him on waivers with the intent of sending him outright to the minors, hoping he will refuse and become a FA.

If they had waited until next month, he could just refuse and remain with the Reds until they released him or traded him.

Wheelhouse
05-21-2005, 05:43 AM
Graves would be a sexy next release...

ochre
05-21-2005, 09:11 AM
I think this organization needs a session with Dr. Phil.

alexad
05-21-2005, 03:28 PM
I guess Jiminez must be a total loser in the clubhouse. Everything points to this being more than just a baseball move. After all the rumblings from San Diego and Chicago I guess it makes sense.

I would have to say this is the reason. He is more of a cancer in the clubhouse than what the public really knows about. Bringing up Lopez I think tells us that. Maybe it was decided that Jiminez was not going to start anymore and he complained about it to the point it was in the best interest of the club to get him out of there. One bad rock can make the boat sink.

I like Freel at second for the time being because of his speed and really the only player you can put at the top of the lineup.

If the reason is because of his playing on the field, than I think the Reds made a mistake.

johngalt
05-21-2005, 10:01 PM
What in God's name is everyone's fascination with Jimenez?

I see all kinds of comments in this thread and in threads on ORG (too bad I can't post there or else my post count would be to about 1,000) about how Miley and DOB are idiots because they release Jimenez and wanted him gone.

We're talking about a player whose above average but not great over the last year or so and well below average this season who is pouty, out of shape, aloof, and generally disliked by the vast majority of his teammates and coaches.

Why is this such a horrid move?

SteelSD
05-21-2005, 10:36 PM
Why is this such a horrid move?

Is that a question you actually want answered?

If so, it has been- on multiple threads.

TC81190
05-21-2005, 11:37 PM
They're going to get the same if not better production from whoever they stick at 2B. They have Freel and a young Luis Castillo on the roster. We're OK.

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2005, 12:11 AM
They're going to get the same if not better production from whoever they stick at 2B. They have Freel and a young Luis Castillo on the roster. We're OK.

Who is the young Castillo on this team? Bergolla is far from being a Lus Castillo type.

Castillo hit .303/.404/.357-.761 in the minors 1.1 BB/K ratio

Bergolla has hit .289/.347/.374-.721 0.7 BB/K

Aronchis
05-22-2005, 12:58 AM
Who is the young Castillo on this team? Bergolla is far from being a Lus Castillo type.

Castillo hit .303/.404/.357-.761 in the minors 1.1 BB/K ratio

Bergolla has hit .289/.347/.374-.721 0.7 BB/K

He is definitely a Luis Castillo, but a poor man's type.

SteelSD
05-22-2005, 01:14 AM
He is definitely a Luis Castillo, but a poor man's type.

Which means that he's not a Luis Castillo.

I think Bergolla can be a nice little player sometime down the road. But unless he becomes an entirely different player, he'll never produce the kind of OBP numbers than can support his Stolen Base attempts.

Simply put, all his Steal attempts allow him to be is an unacceptably low OBP pseudo-doubles hitter without the benefit of an associated power game.

johngalt
05-22-2005, 03:35 AM
Is that a question you actually want answered?

If so, it has been- on multiple threads.

No, it really hasn't.

Freel has outplayed Jimenez this year and gives this club the speed and energy that it needs at the top of the order to help get itself out of the malaise that it's been in. Simply put, Freel has beaten out Jimenez for the second base and leadoff job.

Now, I know the next argument is "Then Jimenez could be supremely valuable off the bench as a switch hitter who can play a couple different spots."

Well, his track record as a pinch-hitter (3-for-18) is small and unsuccessful and realistically, the only position he can play is second. Beside that, he already started to complain about losing some playing time to Freel and it would only get worse if he were reduced to a full-time bench role.

All of this doesn't even mention the fact that he rubs every person he meets the wrong way and displays a general lack of desire according to his own teammates, the guys who see him EVERY DAY both on and off the field.

This was a move that needed to be made.

redsfanmia
05-22-2005, 10:00 AM
No, it really hasn't.

Freel has outplayed Jimenez this year and gives this club the speed and energy that it needs at the top of the order to help get itself out of the malaise that it's been in. Simply put, Freel has beaten out Jimenez for the second base and leadoff job.

Now, I know the next argument is "Then Jimenez could be supremely valuable off the bench as a switch hitter who can play a couple different spots."

Well, his track record as a pinch-hitter (3-for-18) is small and unsuccessful and realistically, the only position he can play is second. Beside that, he already started to complain about losing some playing time to Freel and it would only get worse if he were reduced to a full-time bench role.

All of this doesn't even mention the fact that he rubs every person he meets the wrong way and displays a general lack of desire according to his own teammates, the guys who see him EVERY DAY both on and off the field.

This was a move that needed to be made.
Its not like this is the fist time Jiminez has been released, I know he was designated for assignment when we got him from the White Sox. I didnt understand the Reds signing him this year anyway.

ochre
05-22-2005, 11:28 AM
The Reds press guide shows that Jimenez had 4 years, 81 days ML service at the start of the year. That means he's around 25 days from having 5 years in. So I assume the Reds have placed him on waivers with the intent of sending him outright to the minors, hoping he will refuse and become a FA.

If they had waited until next month, he could just refuse and remain with the Reds until they released him or traded him.
not sure if you are talking about a players ability to say no to a trade after a certain service time or not, but the rule that allows that is called the 5 and 10 rule. It requires 10 years in the majors, 5 consecutive years with you current team.

ochre
05-22-2005, 11:31 AM
No, it really hasn't.

Freel has outplayed Jimenez this year and gives this club the speed and energy that it needs at the top of the order to help get itself out of the malaise that it's been in. Simply put, Freel has beaten out Jimenez for the second base and leadoff job.

Now, I know the next argument is "Then Jimenez could be supremely valuable off the bench as a switch hitter who can play a couple different spots."

Well, his track record as a pinch-hitter (3-for-18) is small and unsuccessful and realistically, the only position he can play is second. Beside that, he already started to complain about losing some playing time to Freel and it would only get worse if he were reduced to a full-time bench role.

All of this doesn't even mention the fact that he rubs every person he meets the wrong way and displays a general lack of desire according to his own teammates, the guys who see him EVERY DAY both on and off the field.

This was a move that needed to be made.
When everybody returns to career norms, as they usually do, Freel and Jimenez are nearly a wash on offense. Historically Jimenez has been a better secondbaseman than Freel. Above average players should not be released. Historically atrocious pitching should. Its not all that different from Bill Clinton bombing a pharmacutical factory to distract the public from the whole Lewinsky thing. The offense is not the problem. This was a token jesture to appease certain parties.

johngalt
05-22-2005, 01:46 PM
When everybody returns to career norms, as they usually do, Freel and Jimenez are nearly a wash on offense. Historically Jimenez has been a better secondbaseman than Freel. Above average players should not be released. Historically atrocious pitching should. Its not all that different from Bill Clinton bombing a pharmacutical factory to distract the public from the whole Lewinsky thing. The offense is not the problem. This was a token jesture to appease certain parties.

I'm not saying that some of the pitching doesn't need to go. My first move would have been to send Ben Weber his papers along with some others in all likelihood.

However, there are other culprits here too and there are other reasons for moves beyond what happens on the field. You can't look at moves in a vacuum just by looking at their statistical production. That's just not realistic. There was a lot more at work here than Jimenez's struggles in the season. His solid '04 season is what justified them putting up with his attitude. Once that defense was gone, it was only a matter of time.

And I beg to differ about the offense being a problem.

9th in the NL in runs
13th in batting average
10th in on-base percentage

Not exactly a high-powered machine. Jimenez certainly doesn't get all the blame for it, but he does deserve some since he was supposed to be the table setter.

ochre
05-22-2005, 02:19 PM
when you give more at bats to a guy like aurilia than a guy like Dunn your team stats will suffer.

Cedric
05-22-2005, 02:25 PM
Ochre- Sometimes getting rid of someone that is slightly above average is necessary when that guy is such a total and complete waste on everyone around him. I'm sorry, but I don't see where D'Angelo Jiminez is good enough to warrant all this crying about him. He's been barely above average for years and he's nowhere near good enough to overcome all the whining and lazy play. Jiminez wasn't near good enough in the past to warrant a free ride the rest of his career, which is what some seem to be saying here.

ochre
05-22-2005, 02:39 PM
Ochre- Sometimes getting rid of someone that is slightly above average is necessary when that guy is such a total and complete waste on everyone around him. I'm sorry, but I don't see where D'Angelo Jiminez is good enough to warrant all this crying about him. He's been barely above average for years and he's nowhere near good enough to overcome all the whining and lazy play. Jiminez wasn't near good enough in the past to warrant a free ride the rest of his career, which is what some seem to be saying here.
You have to get something in return for an above average player.

This whole thing is a diversion from the true problem. World Class suckage from the pitching. Historically atrocious by any measure. To admit that the pitching is 99% of the problem, Dan O' would have to admit that he monumentally miscalculated the value/ability of 5/12 of the pitching staff (those that he acquired, or signed in the off season). Not that the rest of the pitchers have been particularly good (other than Harang). If he were an executive in a Japanese company I would expect sepuku from O'Brien any day now. The Reds propoganda machine keeps pumping the ideology that the offense is the problem, diverting the attention from the pitching? The only way the front office can save face is by blaming those that were acquired by their predecessors for the problems they have either created, or allowed to fester. To do otherwise would be to admit that they aren't very good at what they are trying to do.

SteelSD
05-22-2005, 03:23 PM
No, it really hasn't.

Freel has outplayed Jimenez this year and gives this club the speed and energy that it needs at the top of the order to help get itself out of the malaise that it's been in. Simply put, Freel has beaten out Jimenez for the second base and leadoff job.

Now, I know the next argument is "Then Jimenez could be supremely valuable off the bench as a switch hitter who can play a couple different spots."

Well, his track record as a pinch-hitter (3-for-18) is small and unsuccessful and realistically, the only position he can play is second. Beside that, he already started to complain about losing some playing time to Freel and it would only get worse if he were reduced to a full-time bench role.

All of this doesn't even mention the fact that he rubs every person he meets the wrong way and displays a general lack of desire according to his own teammates, the guys who see him EVERY DAY both on and off the field.

This was a move that needed to be made.

My position has never included the need to consider Jimenez' merits off the bench. As recently as May 8th, Sean Casey was referring to Jimenez as a "spark" off the bench, but that's immaterial.

D'Angelo Jimenez is an above-average MLB starting Second Baseman. He has been since the moment he put on a Reds uniform. He ranked 7th among MLB starting 2B in offensive value last season. He was better than that while in a Reds uniform the year before and he would have finished right around there had he stayed on the field this year. After a slow start, his April OPS was .763. The guy was producing when Miley and O'Brien decided they didn't need him anymore.

If Jimenez was complaining about playing time, he had every reason to do so. If our logic is that above-average players are expendable because of other above-average players on the team, then the Reds might as well just dump Kearns when Pena comes back because Austin's complained about playing time as well.

Ryan Freel's ability to play 2B isn't any more material a thing than his ability to play 3B. He'll play either with the same result defensively. It's pretty much impossible to position Freel as making Jimenez expendable unless we include Joe Randa as being similarly expendable. The Reds could have not signed Randa, kept Jimenez, and plopped Freel at 3B and they'd have been just fine. Instead, they've no simply dumped an above-average MLB starter on the scrap heap while he's performing. That's not a smart thing to do. In fact, I'd love for someone to find me five examples of similar in-season moves by any team or teams from the past 20 years.

And now we've got a kid (who's nowhere near ready) manning the position. Oh, he'll smile and he'll work hard and he'll get bat on ball and Miley will gush and George Grande will burst at the seams with enthusiasm. But that kid will also hurt the team with his performance as Dave Miley's newest Out Machine thrown into the 2-slot with no reason whatsoever. And now we've got another guy coming off the bench who's only value is that we can, when he plays the field, have the oddity of a Lopez to Lopez force Out at 2B. Yay.

Net gain= negative. Didn't "fix" anything. The Reds have the same issues they did when Jimenez was in the clubhouse. Same issues they'll have going forward. They're now worse offensively without the guy. And their pitching is just as bad. Go figure.

KySteveH
05-22-2005, 09:25 PM
not sure if you are talking about a players ability to say no to a trade after a certain service time or not, but the rule that allows that is called the 5 and 10 rule. It requires 10 years in the majors, 5 consecutive years with you current team.

Ochre, I can see where you would think I meant the 5 and 10 rule.

What I was referring to is the fact that a player with 5 full years service time can accept, become a free agent, or refuse an assignment to the minors, which would force the major league team to do something else with him. A player with less time than has only 2 choices: accept, or choose free agency.