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RedsManRick
05-23-2005, 06:19 PM
It seems like DFAing Jimenez was a popular move in the clubhouse. However, I could see the Graves move really backfiring. I'd hate to see guys like Kearns and Dunn, or even Casey and Randa get peaved at management b/c of this move and bring the rest of the team attitude wise. You need to have players that show respect to the organization, but at the same time the organization needs to show some loyalty to its players.

It seems that given his track record as a decent reliever and leader in the clubhouse, a demand for a public apology and demotion to middle relief would have been a reasonable course of action. This team doesn't have the depth to simply give assets away, even struggling ones. We can only hope that one of the teams in need of bullpen help will trade for him thinking they won't be able to pick him off the wire. Regardless of our record, this is starting to look like a VERY pivotal year for the future of the Redlegs.

MartyFan
05-23-2005, 06:27 PM
It seems like DFAing Jimenez was a popular move in the clubhouse. However, I could see the Graves move really backfiring. It seems that given his track record as a decent reliever, a demand for a public apology and demotion to middle relief would have been a reasonable course of action. This team doesn't have the depth to simply give assets away. We can only hope that one of the teams in need of bullpen help will trade for him thinking they won't be able to pick him off the wire.

I'd hate too see guys like Kearns and Dunn get peaved at management b/c of this move and bring the rest of the team down with tme. You want to have players that show respect to the organization, but at the same time the organization needs to show some loyalty to its players. Regardless of our record, this is starting to look like a VERY pivotal year for the future of the Redlegs.

I get what you re saying...I heard clips of Junior and Wilson responding to the move...they are not real happy bout it...but honestly while Dunn and Kearns are good players I think they need to see this as a wake up call...Not so much Dunn as Kearns...It still hacks me off that he didn't go out there for extra BP...I mean at least make a show of it.

And I think this is one of those moves that was made to make a HUGE statement to everyone..Graves as far as I know was well liked by his team mates...maybe this is like saying to the rest of the team..."One more screw up and Casey goes!"

I love the move and hope that it works out great for everyone...Graves will go to another team and it will be fun to see him come back to Cincy a few times a year.

BillyBeaneFan
05-23-2005, 06:40 PM
I think if you are making moves because you're worried about how the other players will react, you're in trouble.

Danny Graves was awful this year and he hadn't been that great for the last couple of years. Players realize this. Sure, he was a nice guy--but he just wasn't performing. He had no business staying in Cincinnati.

Tommyjohn25
05-23-2005, 06:45 PM
I would say it's pretty bold of Wilson to say anything detrimental about anything this organization does, seeing as how he has a similar ERA.

RedsManRick
05-23-2005, 07:02 PM
Therein lies my point -- Wilson is struggling quite a bit too and they are working with him. They cut Graves for attitude reasons as much as performance. The problem is that it's not like Jimenez where he's been around just a few seasons. Graves was what, the 2nd longest tenured Red? The message this sends is very much 2 sides. It says, "we won't put up with disrespect of our fans", but it also says "watch your step, fall in line."

We need to have everybody on the same page certainly, but we don't have to a contemptuous relationship between players and managment. Nothing good can come of that.

Some speculation, perhaps Graves wasn't willing to work to figure out what was going on with his stuff? Jimenez was cut for his poor performace yes, but also beecause of his laze faire attitude towards self-improvement and general surliness. I have to imagine one these was also in play with the Graves decision.

Retneprac
05-23-2005, 07:10 PM
From the report on ESPN.com:

Stunned teammates sat in folding chairs in the clubhouse after learning of the move, which leaves the team without a proven closer. Several players said Graves should have been given a chance to work out his problems.

"This is not his fault," first baseman Sean Casey said. "We stink. For us to be 15-28 has nothing to do with Danny Graves. That's the frustrating part for me.

"I know I'm a little emotional right now, but I think the Cincinnati Reds as an organization owe a lot more to Danny Graves for the eight years he stepped up every year. They owe him more than to just release him like this. I just disagree with it."

Outfielder Ken Griffey Jr. said he's never seen anything quite like the move.

"It's tough," Griffey said. "He's not a troublemaker. He's not a guy that complained. He wants the ball. It's just upsetting. It's a tough way to lose a guy that's been here and dedicated himself to the organization."

Graves criticized Reds fans for booing after the bullpen blew a six-run lead in the ninth inning against St. Louis on May 2, resulting in more boos and catcalls every time he appeared in a game the rest of the month.

"It became a confidence factor," manager Dave Miley said. "His confidence has been shaken in the month of May, and we weren't comfortable bringing him in certain situations. We weren't seeing what we were accustomed to seeing."

The rest of the bullpen has gone 0-for-3 in save situations this season. Miley isn't sure who will get the job.

"Without pinpointing one guy, we'll look at the matchups and different things like that," Miley said. "Hopefully somebody will run with it."

Casey said the move would hurt the team.

"No doubt about it," Casey said. "This is just like getting hit in the head with a shovel, basically. Guys love Danny Graves. I don't know how it doesn't affect you a little bit negatively."

Caseyfan21
05-23-2005, 07:15 PM
I don't think anyone will be surprised to read this, we all knew Graves was popular in the clubhouse. I think if I were in these players situation I would be saying similar things, he was a teammate to several players for a long time and it would their first reaction to defend him for his track record with the Reds.

That being said, I think it still needed to be done to improve the team.

I'll admit I'm a huge Sean Casey fan but for him to say it wasn't Danny Graves fault at all is pure lunacy. A player that has blown several saves, has an ERA over 7 and has created the chaos he has obviously had something to do with the poor start. Not all his fault, but there is definately some blame for him to share.

pedro
05-23-2005, 07:17 PM
"No doubt about it," Casey said. "This is just like getting hit in the head with a shovel, basically. Guys love Danny Graves. I don't know how it doesn't affect you a little bit negatively."

Well good, somebody needs to hit you (Casey) in the head with a shovel. Maybe then you won't ground out to 2B everytime you're up.

I think it's time to trade our frat house president for a bag of peanuts and a case of Double K cola.

RedsManRick
05-23-2005, 07:19 PM
Graves certainly is at fault for the games he's blown. But that doesn't necessarily justify cutting him. Miley said they weren't comfortable bringing him in to certain situations. Are they going to be move comforatble bring Keisler in? Move Graves to mop-up if you have to, but cutting him seems quite premature.

RedsIn07
05-23-2005, 07:20 PM
I can see how fellow teammates may be upset but there has to be a limit for how much any orginization can handle. Regardless if the player has a legacy with a team or is close to other teammates. They and other players can't expect to get by with a 7.30 ERA carying over from after the All Star Break last year and through this year. That is unacceptable for any reliever much less a closer.

redsfanmia
05-23-2005, 07:24 PM
I have been saying that the chemistry has been in need of a shake-up for some time, maybe this move is just that shake-up it needed maybe its not. From a baseball stand up I dont think that it makes much sense surely we could have dealt Graves for something. This move is another example of the ineptitude of our front office in my opinion.

MartyFan
05-23-2005, 07:30 PM
This could get ugly...but I don't know if that will be any more ugly than the play on the field...this team is not the 28 Yankees and to think that ANY OF THEM would be anything close to untouchable or above being released is confusing to me.

I think Junior and Casey will be out the door first...hopefully we will be getting someting in return.

I liked OB when he was hired...loved his slow approach in contrast to Bowdens fly from the seat of your pants style...but I am a bit skeptical at this time...he needs to come up with something that works and hopefully will WOW us in a posative way.

WVPacman
05-23-2005, 07:31 PM
I don't know about you but I will miss all the blown saves by Graves and all the BOOOOOOOOOOO's that rained down on him everytime he came in.


NOT!!!!!!!! :laugh:

schroomytunes
05-23-2005, 07:38 PM
It serves as a wakup call, sure its not popular but it needed to be done. Forget about his salary,history of year's past. The point is he's not a ML caliber pitcher anymore, and he's hurting the team and the fans by being put in the game. This is a win win situation for both parties involved, and maybe it wakes up the frat boys into playing like they should

Tony Cloninger
05-23-2005, 07:43 PM
Letting Tony Perez go after 44 games was a negative for this org.

Letting DG go is, hopefully, the start of rebuilding this org.

Marc D
05-23-2005, 07:44 PM
"This is not his fault," first baseman Sean Casey said. "We stink. For us to be 15-28 has nothing to do with Danny Graves. That's the frustrating part for me.

Nothing to do with Graves?? How many blown saves and what was his ERA in May, 30 something?? The guy has completely lost his sinker and his sinker was the only thing he had.


"I know I'm a little emotional right now, but I think the Cincinnati Reds as an organization owe a lot more to Danny Graves for the eight years he stepped up every year. They owe him more than to just release him like this. I just disagree with it."

They paid him millions of dollars and will continue to pay him millions this year. Debt paid. Now if we are going to jump on soapboxes about debts, what praytell does Graves owe the fans?


Casey said the move would hurt the team.

"No doubt about it," Casey said. "This is just like getting hit in the head with a shovel, basically. Guys love Danny Graves. I don't know how it doesn't affect you a little bit negatively."

So whats going to happen Sean, you guys going to lose 110 instead of 106?


The more Casey continues with this sensitive guy, we're all here to be friends, excuse making for everyone the Reds cut for horrid production the less I like him.

I know he's a nice guy and all but maybe the Reds clubhouse is need of a guy with a bit more of an edge to slap them out of this loveable loser mentality they have had for the past 6 years. I'd rather have a Kirk Gibson than the Stuart Smalley we seem to have developed.

cincyinco
05-23-2005, 07:45 PM
Some speculation, perhaps Graves wasn't willing to work to figure out what was going on with his stuff? Jimenez was cut for his poor performace yes, but also beecause of his laze faire attitude towards self-improvement and general surliness. I have to imagine one these was also in play with the Graves decision.

Redsmanrick from ESPN boards? Whats up man. I have to say that I also think Graves had a laze fair attitude towards self-improvement and winning in general. Read his comments lately? I'm glad he's gone.

MartyFan
05-23-2005, 07:50 PM
PREDICTION

If the team gets in trouble and attitudes start to wear thin...look for the entire team to stand on the top step of the dugout and flip the entire stadium the bird...that will put the FO in their place for daring to mess with the chemistry of this team.

kyred14
05-23-2005, 08:04 PM
first let me say i've liked casey and think he a genuinely nice guy. but this constant moaning and groaning over every move the reds make is driving me absolutly nuts. esspically after the comments on jimenez's release. he says graves "needed a chance to work it out" (or something to that extent) well, why didn't jimenez deserve that same chance in your eyes, because he wouldn't play the playstation with you and danny??

i swear if i have to listen to one of sean's emotional breakdowns after one of his friends is removed, i'm going to throw up :barf:

RedsBaron
05-23-2005, 08:18 PM
Casey was quoted as saying: "This is not his fault. We stink. For us to be 15-28 has nothing to do with Danny Graves." Sorry, Sean-while Graves is hardly the only reason the Reds are 15-28, the numerous leads blown by Graves certainly contributed to the stink coming from GABP.
Casey went on to say: "I think the Cincinnati Reds as an organization owe a lot more to Danny Graves for the eight years that he stepped up every year." I would have thought $18,000,000 over the last three seasons was adequate payment.
Casey added that the move would hurt the team: "No doubt about it.....Guys love Danny Graves." Sean makes it sound as if the Reds were on the verge of winning the NL Central, only to blow it by releasing Graves.
I'm glad Graves's teammates liked him and I understand that Casey was just blowing off steam, hating to see his buddy go. That said, Casey's statements were silly IMO and make the Reds sound more like a beer league softball team than a major league baseball team.

CalSean
05-23-2005, 08:33 PM
Okay, just for a moment, step into Casey's shoes. You can't expect Casey to be thrilled with this move when they have been teammates and friends on the same ballclub from February to October for 8 years. Many memories have been built between them. Everyone should expect Casey and Griffey and others to feel shock and dismay. It is like losing a close family member.

Time heals everything, and I think you will quickly see business as usual from this day forward. Everything is going to turn out just fine. This isn't the first close teammate that has been released and it won't be the last. That is the nature of professional sports.

ws1990reds
05-23-2005, 08:34 PM
If Sean is discussing Graves' salary, it sure makes me wonder whether this had an effect on Danny's performance. I can't help but think that Danny just got tired of not being over-paid like the rest of the big leaguers, and wanted a way out of it. Having said that, Sean doesn't have much room to talk. Other than being able to scoop balls out of the dirt and hit singles to right field, he really doesn't do much himself in the way of earning HIS salary.

BuckeyeRed27
05-23-2005, 08:35 PM
I hate it when people criticize the players when they make comments about their teammates. This team is like their family. They see these people more than their wives and kids for 7 months of the year. Something like this happening is probably very difficult for a lot of players. Graves has been a teammate of a lot of these guys for 7 or 8 years. That's a long time to have a sudden ending like this occur.

So why don't you lay off Sean Casey a little bit ok.

ws1990reds
05-23-2005, 08:36 PM
Well good, somebody needs to hit you (Casey) in the head with a shovel. Maybe then you won't ground out to 2B everytime you're up.

I think it's time to trade our frat house president for a bag of peanuts and a case of Double K cola.

I'm with ya! :thumbup: I am tired of reading "The Mayor", it's time for Sean to step up and be "The Governor".

Tommyjohn25
05-23-2005, 08:49 PM
I hate it when people criticize the players when they make comments about their teammates. This team is like their family. They see these people more than their wives and kids for 7 months of the year. Something like this happening is probably very difficult for a lot of players. Graves has been a teammate of a lot of these guys for 7 or 8 years. That's a long time to have a sudden ending like this occur.

So why don't you lay off Sean Casey a little bit ok.

I agree, what are they supposed to say if they are friends with the guy? That they are glad that he's gone and he was horrible? No i don't think so, they have to know that it was best for the team but they can't be expected to come out and say it with fears of comprimising their friendship with danny. IMO anyways.

PickOff
05-23-2005, 08:58 PM
The more Casey continues with this sensitive guy, we're all here to be friends, excuse making for everyone the Reds cut for horrid production the less I like him.

I know he's a nice guy and all but maybe the Reds clubhouse is need of a guy with a bit more of an edge to slap them out of this loveable loser mentality they have had for the past 6 years. I'd rather have a Kirk Gibson than the Stuart Smalley we seem to have developed.
__________________


I definitely agree that Sean Casey is not the man to lead this club. We all know the leadership this club desperately needs is not going to come from the coaches, so who is going to step up? Who is going to lead by example and kick people in the rear?

The only people that seem to have the pedigree or time with the club besides Sean are Griffey and Dunn. Graves was the other one, but he wasn't much of a leader and he was certainly not bringing it on the field. You've got to show the effort and perform to be a leader, unless you are a future hall of famer in the swan song of your career and the guys respect you. I've heard before that Larue has a strong clubhouse presence, but it's hard to lead with a .204 average.

Who else? Merker? Wilson? Randa?
No, no, and no.

Bottom line is Dunn or Griffey need to get out of their respective recliners, refuse to accept mediocrity, and lead. Preferably both, we know what we're gonna get from Casey, and while he's a stand up guy we just need more. If Griffey really wants to get that ring with the Reds than he better lay the groundwork now, and if Dunn actually cares as much about winning as he says he does than we need see it.

Now, I'm under no illusion that leadership is all this club needs to win consistantly, but I know that we do need it to win at all.

I'd just like to believe sometimes that these guys care as much about the success of the Reds as the fans do.

redsfanmia
05-23-2005, 09:50 PM
Therein lies my point -- Wilson is struggling quite a bit too and they are working with him. They cut Graves for attitude reasons as much as performance. The problem is that it's not like Jimenez where he's been around just a few seasons. Graves was what, the 2nd longest tenured Red? The message this sends is very much 2 sides. It says, "we won't put up with disrespect of our fans", but it also says "watch your step, fall in line."

We need to have everybody on the same page certainly, but we don't have to a contemptuous relationship between players and managment. Nothing good can come of that.

Some speculation, perhaps Graves wasn't willing to work to figure out what was going on with his stuff? Jimenez was cut for his poor performace yes, but also beecause of his laze faire attitude towards self-improvement and general surliness. I have to imagine one these was also in play with the Graves decision.
Danny was in the last year of his contract, im sure he was willing to work to figure out his problems. Danny was not the greatest closers or greatest pitchers but I remember him "taking one for the team" and working to become a starter when he has always been a reliever. Im not upset that Danny is gone I just think he had some value and should have been traded for something, we have 10 days so maybe something will be worked out.

Caseyfan21
05-23-2005, 11:03 PM
I don't think Griffey or Dunn is going to step up as a vocal leader. Dunn is too young and has never been a vocal leader, more of a "just take care of my business" type of player. Griffey is much the same. He has been in the league for a very long time now and he has yet to step as a vocal leader that calls players out like a Greg Vaughn. I don't think he will magically start doing this, he will continue to lead more by example. What this club desperately needs is to acquire or sign a Greg Vaughn type of player that will come into the clubhouse and not put up with some of the junk going on. I think Randa is the only player on this club that has that type of personality but I don't think he's very vocal.

Maybe one of the writers or insiders on the boards could elaborate on where leadership comes from in the clubhouse...

Maldez
05-23-2005, 11:33 PM
From the report on ESPN.com:
Stunned teammates sat in folding chairs in the clubhouse after learning of the move, which leaves the team without a proven closer.

The team's been without a proven closer all year.

REDREAD
05-23-2005, 11:38 PM
No matter how much leadership the team has, it's not going to be able to overcome this putrid pitching staff.

I honestly think the desire is there to win (even with Graves). They are trying hard, but Wilson has been pitching hurt, and frankly some of the other pitchers are talent-challenged.

IMO, it's not a leadership problem, this team had a bad architect (Dan0)

BillyBeaneFan
05-23-2005, 11:41 PM
Honestly, what team would have traded for Danny Graves? His salary is high, he's been an absolute gascan this year, and now he is flipping off fans.

Furthermore, why would you trade for him when you know the Reds will end up getting rid of him anyways, and you can get him for a fraction of the cost?

It's time to stop dreaming, guys. Nobody was going to bail us out on Graves.

alexad
05-23-2005, 11:45 PM
What is really bad about the whole thing is Danny got a phone call from DanO saying he was going to be DFA. I think that was classless. If you are going to release a player making 6 million dollars and the team leader in saves and having pitched for the past 8 years, I think they at least owe him a face to face talk.

I would have suspended him first and then dealt with it when I came back. Phone call conversations is not what this team needs to be associated with.

Just because Miley did the dirty work does not mean he is safe.

But to win tonight was a big huge pick me up for this team.

Reds/Flyers Fan
05-23-2005, 11:52 PM
I, for one, am not sorry at all to see the dismantling of this group. It's like kicking a fraternity off campus for poor behavior -- the guys all get along great but the results are nothing short of destructive. Sean Casey & Friends have had half a decade (if not more) together to prove they can win and we have seen nothing but sub-par season after sub-par season. If anything, it's getting worse.

The Reds don't owe it to any of their players to keep a losing bunch together just because they all get along famously in the clubhouse. Sorry Sean, the party's over.

BillyBeaneFan
05-24-2005, 12:10 AM
I am really disappointed in Casey. I know he loves his teammates, I know he and Graves came up together. But where are your priorities when you're going to bat for a guy with a 7+ ERA and not for the organization overpaying you?

Sean Casey is a great guy, fans love him, his attitude is awesome. But he is overpaid and what's more than that, I don't think his an attitude is necessarily a winning one. If he was pissed about Graves, he should have just shut his mouth or danced around it like Griffey did. Instead, you go to bat for a guy who was dragging this franchise down.

The bottom line is we should have gotten rid of Casey last year when somebody might have given us something halfway decent for him. We need to open up first for Dunn.

NDRed
05-24-2005, 12:11 AM
"I, for one, am not sorry at all to see the dismantling of this group. It's like kicking a fraternity off campus for poor behavior -- the guys all get along great but the results are nothing short of destructive. Sean Casey & Friends have had half a decade (if not more) together to prove they can win and we have seen nothing but sub-par season after sub-par season. If anything, it's getting worse.

The Reds don't owe it to any of their players to keep a losing bunch together just because they all get along famously in the clubhouse. Sorry Sean, the party's over."

Excellent point Reds/Flyers Fan. This group of Reds players is owed nothing. They are at best underachieving and more likely very overrated.

Time to start over, we can't do any worse.

CincyReds2003
05-24-2005, 12:13 AM
I, for one, am not sorry at all to see the dismantling of this group. It's like kicking a fraternity off campus for poor behavior -- the guys all get along great but the results are nothing short of destructive. Sean Casey & Friends have had half a decade (if not more) together to prove they can win and we have seen nothing but sub-par season after sub-par season. If anything, it's getting worse.

The Reds don't owe it to any of their players to keep a losing bunch together just because they all get along famously in the clubhouse. Sorry Sean, the party's over.


According to Dan O' Brien, they were placed on Double Secret Probation!
http://photos3.flickr.com/3508474_79b669ac01_m.jpg

TeamBoone
05-24-2005, 12:36 AM
I get what you re saying...I heard clips of Junior and Wilson responding to the move...

I didn't hear any Wilson comments. Could you post a source?




Graves as far as I know was well liked by his team mates...maybe this is like saying to the rest of the team..."One more screw up and Casey goes!"

I certainly hope not. Who would want to work for an organization that uses threats to motivate its employees? This is a major league ball club, not the mafia. They'll never get decent players to come to Cincinnati if this turns out to be their MO and it gets out to other clubs (and free agents).

In reply to another poster, "respect" of the players for the FO must be earned, not demanded. Brow beating the players will not earn respect, it will only breed resentment.

TeamBoone
05-24-2005, 12:41 AM
What the heck was he supposed to say? "He's my friend but he stinks as a pitcher and I'm glad he's gone."

I think all the players should give up talking to the media... just say "no comment" because every time they open their mouths, everyone picks their words apart until they lose all meaning, are distorted beyond comprehension, or assume they are saying something that they're not. Of course, they don't know that unless they're reading this board.

These are human beings folks! And, in their working environment, this is a tragedy to them... just as it would be to you if one of your dear colleagues was fired. Please, give the guys some slack.

Betterread
05-24-2005, 12:43 AM
Casey is displaying his loyalty to a teammate who has just been given a serious professional blow. I'm sure Graves will never forget it.

flyer85
05-24-2005, 12:49 AM
They could pay all the lip service they want to it be only about performance but they are not telling the whole truth. The situation with the fans had gotten ugly and after Sunday and the publicity it was only going to get worse ... much worse.

Graves has been awful but so has another number of other players. Just another sign that the organization doesn't have the fortitude to address the real problems. Maybe they want to develop an adversarial relationship between the players and FO.

WVPacman
05-24-2005, 12:54 AM
Has anybody heard what the fan said to Graves??,Are they any truth that the fan maybe have made a racist remark concerning Graves Asian background. :confused:

TeamBoone
05-24-2005, 12:56 AM
That's what was said on the radio, according to another poster... "Hey Charlie; go back to Nam".

WVPacman
05-24-2005, 01:14 AM
That's what was said on the radio, according to another poster... "Hey Charlie; go back to Nam".


Wow,we all agree that he stunk it up for the past two years but I think the fan went a little to far. :eek:

If thats what was said!!

BillyBeaneFan
05-24-2005, 01:20 AM
That's what was said on the radio, according to another poster... "Hey Charlie; go back to Nam".

Yeah, if that's true, that fan was totally out of line. But let's face it, Graves flicking that guy off was only the straw that broke the camel's back...how long can a closer last with a 7+ ERA?

deltachi8
05-24-2005, 01:30 AM
Graves being DFA was a result of a 7+ era and complete loss of his stuff. If he was pitching lights out, he apologizes in a statement and its over.

As for the gang, it is time to break it up. Is it just me or have the likes of some of these guys (Casey, Graves, LaRue) been living off the 1999 season for a bit too long?

I have had some close friends where I have worked get canned. It sucks on a personal note, but it was good business. I'm sure when the "shock" wears off the team will realize that. Give them a bit of slack while that happens, but just a bit.

Henry Clay
05-24-2005, 01:31 AM
I don't think the Reds need to worry about clubhouse discontent changing the team's performance -- the performance can only improve at this point. As for how players are receiving news of the treatment of Graves, it is to be expected. Aside from his recent whining, lewd gesture, and occasional stupid comments, he has probably been a good teammate, especially if his teammates didn't care too much about his prolonged outings and blown saves. Given the team's overall poor performance, Danny's horrible numbers just made him seem like another guy in a Reds' uniform.

Regarding the respect question, friction with the front office is probably not going to ruin a club. There are myriad stories of good, great, and HOF players who got into contract disputes with management and even sat out for periods in the pre-arbitration days. DiMaggio and the Yankees certainly did not suffer performance-wise from any resentment or lack of respect toward upper management during DiMaggio's contract fights. The best way to gain the respect of ML players is to demonstrate a desire to build a winning team. John Olerud is now playing in the Boston minor leagues -- his first time in the minor leagues ever -- probably because he chose Boston and its winning ways over other teams that, no doubt, would have wanted him on a major league roster. Certain Boston players may have been upset (and I don't know if it is true or not) with the offseason deals offered to the likes of Pedro, Lowe, and others, and the protracted negotiations with Varitek, but I'm sure the team still respects management and its demonstrated desire to field a winning team.

I do think this version of Reds' management is trying to field a winning team and reform the organization to become competitive again. I don't think they are very good at what they are doing, but they are trying. The DFAs of Haynes, Jimenez, and Graves and the money that was eaten in the deals are examples of this.

deltachi8
05-24-2005, 01:37 AM
DJ was not one of the cool kids.

Graves was.

Thats the difference in reaction as far as I can tell.

Threats are not an ideal way to do business but if nothing else works, making an example or two out of people can.

Caseyfan21
05-24-2005, 01:43 AM
Yeah, the fan was out of line definately. As a fan there are boundaries you just don't cross when heckling and ethnicity is one of them. That being said, Danny should have not done what he did. It's like the Ron Artest incident. The fan was out of line but Artest can't go into the stands after the guy (stretching the analogy a bit I know).

But suppose Gagne gave the Dodger fans the finger, or maybe Rivera is fed up and gives Yankee stadium the bird. Both would have gotten off with a slap on the wrist fine or maybe a game suspension at most as long as they apologized. The fact of the matter is, as BillyBeaneFan stated, this just happened to be the incident that did him in.

The Reds FO was fed up with his lack of velocity, attitude problems, and overall performance. They needed more of a reason to get rid of him and this gave them the perfect excuse because all of us fans are up in arms about this. If he doesn't flick off the fan, I have a feeling a lot more people on this board and in the stadium would want to put him on the DL and see if he can figure it out.

WMR
05-24-2005, 02:01 AM
From the report on ESPN.com:


"This is not his fault," first baseman Sean Casey said. "We stink. For us to be 15-28 has nothing to do with Danny Graves. That's the frustrating part for me.

"I know I'm a little emotional right now, but I think the Cincinnati Reds as an organization owe a lot more to Danny Graves for the eight years he stepped up every year. They owe him more than to just release him like this. I just disagree with it."

Casey said the move would hurt the team.

"No doubt about it," Casey said. "This is just like getting hit in the head with a shovel, basically. Guys love Danny Graves. I don't know how it doesn't affect you a little bit negatively."

I'm sorry, Sean, but this is pure, absolute GARBAGE. If you don't perform at your job, you get axed. I've had to fire people who everybody absolutely loved to death, but they could not do the job for which they had been hired.

Everyone who has made the frat-house analogy could not be more on target.

Can someone please tell me exactly when the Cincinnati Reds became Sean Casey's personal feel-good buddy club? Someone made the comment that he is just sticking up for Graves, well how about sticking up for the fans of Cincinnati who got called out by Danny Graves on numerous occassions? You think a Barry Larkin would have made those sort of comments? He would have done the professional thing, exactly what Ken Griffey Junior did. You don't need to bad mouth the guy, but realize that he is gone and you aren't doing the Reds any favors by heaping all this undeserved praise on a guy who was simply not hacking it and has not been hacking it in nearly a year.

Sean Casey is not a leader. A leader would not have said the things that he did b/c his words can only make a bad situation worse. Sean Casey is interested in being everybody's bestest buddy.

Mark my words: This totally lackadaisical clubhouse will not yield a winning season until this club brings in:

a) Some pitchers who can pitch to something other than contact (i.e. good)

b) Some real leaders who will stop this silliness and get serious about playing baseball (how different would things have played out this year if Barry Larkin were still with the Reds? You think some of these comments by various Reds would still have been made? I don't think so, b/c I don't think that Barry Larkin would have stood for it for a second.)

He wouldn't have been bemoaning to anybody with a microphone how he was going through such pain over the loss of his good buddy, he would have been talking about how this ship needed to right itself, everybody needed to take a good hard look in the mirror, and that anyone who didn't do that, and get with the program, would have a big problem with him. Sean Casey is one of the few who has the weight to make such a comment and make it stick, but, unfortunately, it isn't in his character to do so.

BillyBeaneFan
05-24-2005, 02:19 AM
Sean Casey is not a leader. A leader would not have said the things that he did b/c his words can only make a bad situation worse. Sean Casey is interested in being everybody's bestest buddy.

Mark my words: This total lackadaisical clubhouse will not yield a winning season until this club brings in:

a) Some pitchers who can pitch to something other than contact (i.e. good)

b) Some real leaders who will stop this silliness and get serious about playing baseball (how different would things have played out this year if Barry Larkin were still with the Reds? You think some of these comments by various Reds would still have been made? I don't think so, b/c I don't think that Barry Larkin would have stood for it for a second.)

He wouldn't have been bemoaning to anybody with a microphone how he was going through such pain over the loss of his good buddy, he would have been talking about how this ship needed to right itself, everybody needed to take a good hard look in the mirror, and that anyone who didn't do that, and get with the program, would have a big problem with him. Sean Casey is one of the few who has the weight to make such a comment and make it stick, but, unfortunately, it isn't in his character to do so.

Wow. Exactly.

Regarding Casey, I agree. We don't need a "Mayor," we don't need a high school class president. We need someone who number one, hits the ball, and number two, keeps the rest of the team in line. Casey isn't doing either right now, and he's getting paid a boatload.

The thing about pitching is very true. I remember last year, ESPN actually ran a column about how the Reds pitching approach (throw strikes, induce contact) was so novel and the key to their success. Well, that lasted a long time. In a ballpark like GABP, inducing contact (unless you have all sinkerballers, maybe) is courting disaster.

I also totally agree about the Larkin thing. Barry Larkin had good reason to be pissed at the organization on a lot of occasions but he always handled it like a professional. Much as people might not like him, Griffey is doing the same thing now. These guys get it...airing your dirty laundry in the media is the last thing anyone needs.

I don't know if Casey really cares that much about Graves or he wants to just get some plaudits from sports talk radio tomorrow for "supporing his teammate." If it's the latter, that's bullcrap. Any sportstalker who takes Casey's side in this matter needs to take another look in the mirror...he's a great guy, but he is dead wrong here.

Larkin didn't care. Griffey doesn't. They play the game and take their lumps, rather than prancing around like Casey is right now. Did I mention both of them are better players than Casey, too?

WMR
05-24-2005, 02:37 AM
Wow. Exactly.

get some plaudits from sports talk radio tomorrow for "supporing his teammate."

That's something I realized while watching the telecast tonight: From the two jokers who did the pre-game show to George Grande and Chris Welsh, everybody was talking about the release of Danny Graves like it was totally underserved and that just b/c he was the all-time saves leader for the Reds he should be given carte blanche to make an ass out of himself through the media and through flicking off fans ALL WHILE serving up that excrement that he calls pitching?!?!

And that is the root of this problem that I realized while watching the pregame and listening to the telecast: This whole culture of losing has become so pervasive, I don't know if there's a single employee of the Reds who realized that maybe getting rid of Danny Graves is just the first step in what this club really needs. Every one is bemoaning how we're losing such a "Great Clubhouse Guy" well, hey, you know what, I want less nice guys and more guys who will produce results.

This team is like the absolute antithesis of the Big Red Machine of the 1970s. The ship is listing, without any real leadership from the FO down to the players, but we're all supposed to be sad b/c a guy who was basically sucking, and sucking badly, finally got fired?

I hope he's not the last to either be traded or get his walking papers. This team needs major surgery.

Graves' famous words towards Eric Milton describing how the fans are "cool with you when you lose" perfectly define the mindset of this club as I see it.

What would Pete Rose have done if one of his teammates had said such a thing??? I shudder to think, because Pete Rose, and the rest of the BRM, HATED to lose.

This team, this entire organization ( and I do mean ENTIRE ) has become complacent and wants to value "nice guys with good attitudes" over RESULTS?? I want changes.

oregonred
05-24-2005, 03:00 AM
What is really bad about the whole thing is Danny got a phone call from DanO saying he was going to be DFA. I think that was classless. If you are going to release a player making 6 million dollars and the team leader in saves and having pitched for the past 8 years, I think they at least owe him a face to face talk.

I would have suspended him first and then dealt with it when I came back. Phone call conversations is not what this team needs to be associated with.

Just because Miley did the dirty work does not mean he is safe.

But to win tonight was a big huge pick me up for this team.

Agree. That's pretty Bush League if that's the way it all went down. :thumbdown

Ron Madden
05-24-2005, 04:27 AM
What the heck was he supposed to say? "He's my friend but he stinks as a pitcher and I'm glad he's gone."

I think all the players should give up talking to the media... just say "no comment" because every time they open their mouths, everyone picks their words apart until they lose all meaning, are distorted beyond comprehension, or assume they are saying something that they're not. Of course, they don't know that unless they're reading this board.

These are human beings folks! And, in their working environment, this is a tragedy to them... just as it would be to you if one of your dear colleagues was fired. Please, give the guys some slack.

Again I find myself agreeing with TeamBoone.

Casey isn't going say anything bad about a friend of his and you know Sean feels sorry for Danny right now. No comment would've been a better answer but would it have been an honest answer? And how many ways could it be twisted into something negative.

Beat writers and readers alike take every comment these guys make anymore and twist it into what the themselves want'em to mean. If I were a member of this club I'd just try to do my job and keep a low profile around the media.

But then McCoy would think me moody and a clubhouse cancer. :evil:

Jpup
05-24-2005, 04:50 AM
Well good, somebody needs to hit you (Casey) in the head with a shovel. Maybe then you won't ground out to 2B everytime you're up.

I think it's time to trade our frat house president for a bag of peanuts and a case of Double K cola.

Sean Casey:

This Month .341
Last 30 Days .336

T-17th Batting Avg. NL (.308)
T-3rd Doubles NL (14)
T-9th Hits NL (52)

I think it's time to bash on someone else besides Sean Casey.

Jpup
05-24-2005, 04:58 AM
Wow. Exactly.

Regarding Casey, I agree. We don't need a "Mayor," we don't need a high school class president. We need someone who number one, hits the ball...

check my previous post. he is hitting the ball. :thumbup:

Ron Madden
05-24-2005, 05:00 AM
When Marvin Lewis does this we praise him. IN MARVIN WE TRUST!

When the Reds try to get better it's OH NO!
What will the guys in the clubhouse think?

Somthin's wrong with this picture.

jhiller21
05-24-2005, 05:16 AM
Miley needs to address the fact that clubhouse chemistry isn't directly related to friendliness. Take Ty Cobb for example, he was the meanest, most retched and hateful man to play the game. Everyone that played with him hated him, yet his performance drove a ballclub to compete. His presense alone sparked his teammates to perform. Someone needs to explain to Sean Casey that nice guys don't always make it to the All Star game.

Blimpie
05-24-2005, 09:07 AM
The atmosphere in the clubhouse was ALREADY terrible. Paul Wilson should be thankful that we can only eat so much cash at one sitting. I heard his comments and they didn't shock me at all. The remaining players will say what they can to the media to let Graves know that they "had his back"--while secretly, many of them are relieved that he is gone.

Griffey? he was running the whole "I sure would hate to face Danny Graves in another uniform" spiel yesterday. Junior...come on now. Are you serious? The entire league was batting over .300 off the guy. You probably went to bed dreaming of being in the batter's box looking at Graves' flat sinkers and 84 mph heaters....

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 10:21 AM
What the heck was he supposed to say? "He's my friend but he stinks as a pitcher and I'm glad he's gone."



How about something other than "it's not his fault". Gimme a break mayor. The guy stunk it up and he was a major reason for this team's losing record. You want to whine and cry to the press about how awful this is for the team, go ahead - that's what you always seem to do. Perhaps you could do it in a way though that doesn't make you look like you care more about your clubhouse friendships than the product you're putting out on the field.

oneupper
05-24-2005, 10:35 AM
What the heck was he supposed to say? "He's my friend but he stinks as a pitcher and I'm glad he's gone."



How about "Danny was a good friend and a great competitor. I'm sad to see him go." and leave it at that?

Why go onto this "the club owes him loyalty, etc.., etc." stuff?

Ballplayers should really get PR classes to avoid having them put their feet in the mouths constantly. Talking to the media goes with the job and they HAVE to do it. If they learn to do it well, they can avoid the pitfalls of turning into a Barry Bonds, a Steve Carlton or a Danny Graves.

knuckler
05-24-2005, 10:42 AM
What the heck was he supposed to say? "He's my friend but he stinks as a pitcher and I'm glad he's gone."

I think all the players should give up talking to the media... just say "no comment" because every time they open their mouths, everyone picks their words apart until they lose all meaning, are distorted beyond comprehension, or assume they are saying something that they're not. Of course, they don't know that unless they're reading this board.

These are human beings folks! And, in their working environment, this is a tragedy to them... just as it would be to you if one of your dear colleagues was fired. Please, give the guys some slack.

The best media managers I've ever seen were the Boone brothers, Bret and Aaron. They had both been to the Crash Davis school of baseball cliches, and knew which boilerplate to pull at what time. They came across as sincere and gave the media and fans what they wanted to hear without actually saying anything, which is perfect.

Sean Casey is what he is, a sensitive and emotional guy who places immense value on personal relationships and the kind of loyal friend everybody (except apparently Jimenez) loves to have for a teammate. That's a good thing, but consider his statements regarding Graves in that context. Casey was probably also the first Red welcoming Keisler into the clubhouse, because that's the kind of human being he is.

deltachi8
05-24-2005, 10:46 AM
The best media managers I've ever seen were the Boone brothers, Bret and Aaron. They had both been to the Crash Davis school of baseball cliches, and knew which boilerplate to pull at what time. They came across as sincere and gave the media and fans what they wanted to hear without actually saying anything, which is perfect.

Sean Casey is what he is, a sensitive and emotional guy who places immense value on personal relationships and the kind of loyal friend everybody (except apparently Jimenez) loves to have for a teammate. That's a good thing, but consider his statements regarding Graves in that context. Casey was probably also the first Red welcoming Keisler into the clubhouse, because that's the kind of human being he is.

My favorite Aaron Boone line was when informed the Reds had traded his brother, he responded "Who did we get for him."

BuckU
05-24-2005, 10:57 AM
Like they said in Jerry McGuire..."It's not showfriends, it's show business". Casey needs to detach the personal emotions and actually realize this will help his team. He did this when Aaron Boone was traded and he'll do it if Randa or anybody is let go/traded.

LincolnparkRed
05-24-2005, 10:59 AM
My favorite Aaron Boone line was when informed the Reds had traded his brother, he responded "Who did we get for him."

That is the qoute you would expect to hear from a major league player. I think that Casey just got caught up in the moment b/c he and graves came from Cleveland at about the same time and Graves was successful the majority of his career so I imagine his personal relationship with Graves drove his comments yesterday but I think at some point he will look at the situation rationally and see a 6million dollar pitcher with pr problems and a 7+ ERA. I think after today you won't here anyone lamenting the loss but just the timing of the release caught everyone of guard.

flyer85
05-24-2005, 11:19 AM
I think the antimosity is because they look at a FO that seems to have no clue, no plan and no reason for just about everything they do.

BillyBeaneFan
05-24-2005, 11:41 AM
My favorite Aaron Boone line was when informed the Reds had traded his brother, he responded "Who did we get for him."

Wow, that is perfect!

I love how ironic it is that we get bored of hearing players just say the same old cliches all the time, but most of us agree that using those cliches is what constitutes good media strategy.

Blimpie
05-24-2005, 12:29 PM
I agree, what are they supposed to say if they are friends with the guy? That they are glad that he's gone and he was horrible? No i don't think so, they have to know that it was best for the team but they can't be expected to come out and say it with fears of comprimising their friendship with danny. IMO anyways.How about say nothing? How about being a pro and cease with the bashing of the people who sign your freakin' paychecks?

Larkin is the one who made this junk en vogue with the beat writers. Everytime the FO made a move, the scribes were tripping over themselves to get some good ink from Barry. IMO, Casey should keep it short and sweet with the media unless it is "off the record."

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 12:49 PM
I think the antimosity is because they look at a FO that seems to have no clue, no plan and no reason for just about everything they do.

probably so, but the Graves move was a no brainer

Redsland
05-24-2005, 01:34 PM
It's hard to give Sean Casey a pass for complaining about how his employer conducts business.

TheBurn
05-24-2005, 01:39 PM
Reliever designated for assignment following struggles
By Anthony Castrovince / MLB.com
05/23/2005 9:17 PM ET

CINCINNATI -- The Reds' clubhouse sat silent and, for the most part, empty Monday afternoon.

The familiar sounds of rock music blaring from Danny Graves' iPod were gone. Instead, Graves quietly held court in front of his corner locker, as he and his now-former teammates digested the move that had just been made.

Unlike the ousting of second baseman D'Angelo Jimenez, who had an altogether uncomfortable relationship with many of the Reds, the team's decision to designate Graves for assignment was met by some with anger, bitterness and hurt feelings.

Few seemed to be more irked than clubhouse leader Sean Casey, who went on at length about his frustration with the front office's decision.

"Guys love that guy. Guys love Danny Graves. I don't know how that doesn't affect things negatively," Casey said. "Right now, this is one of the lowest points I've been part of with the Reds and probably the lowest point of our season."

Many players were shocked the team would cast Graves aside so early in the season, given his dedication to the club the past eight years.

"He's a professional," Paul Wilson said. "He's a Cincinnati Red. He's done so much for the city, this organization, this team and me. Everybody in this locker room knows it. This hurts a great deal."

Though he had been hurt badly in recent outings, compiling an ERA of 11.00 this month, Graves was 10-for-12 in save opportunities. That's a stat that didn't go unnoticed by a starting pitcher like Wilson.

"There's nothing that Danny has done or said that would give them enough reason to warrant this," Wilson said. "If you want to talk about performance, the guy's 10 out of 12 for saves. Yeah, he's given up runs the last few times out. He'll be the first to tell you that. But give him the ball in a save opportunity, and he's done that. I thought that was the bottom line."

The bottom line became complicated in this instance.

Graves was popular with teammates but unpopular with some fans.

After helping to blow a six-run, ninth-inning lead against the Cardinals on May 2, Graves complained about fans booing the team. That led to a chorus of boos each time he took the mound in succeeding appearances at Great American Ball Park.

On Sunday, the ugliness resulted in Graves making an obscene gesture toward a fan from the Reds' dugout.

Casey said that poor relationship with the fans shouldn't have led to Graves being let go.

"He said what we said about being booed, but 'Gravy' cares about this city," Casey said. "He lives here, he has a house in West Chester. He loves it here. And believe me, he didn't like being booed just as much as I'm sure the fans didn't like booing him."

And for all his trouble with fans, Graves was one of the Reds' most active community members. He regularly donated tickets to underprivileged children through his "Gravy's Train" program; he was the team's spokesman for breast cancer awareness through the Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation; and he gave money to a variety of charities, including the Make-A-Wish Foundation.

"He was great," said Lorrie Platt, the team's community relations manager. "He was very approachable. He was one of the first go-to guys for community outreach."

It all added up to one heart-wrenching goodbye for several Reds players.

But outside of the relationships built with Graves, some players wondered if the move was smart, both business-wise and baseball-wise. The Reds will most likely end up eating what remains of Graves' $6.25 million contract this season.

Ken Griffey Jr. said the decision could come back to haunt the team on the field.

"Everybody in here knows [Graves] is going to turn it around," Griffey said. "They wanted to make a change, and they made it. But the next team that picks him up ... when he comes here, it's going to be tough trying to face a guy with a little more determination."

Casey said he wouldn't be surprised to find out Graves is battling physical problems that could have been treated, if checked out.

"He was throwing 94 [mph] a few years ago," Casey said. "You don't throw eight miles per hour off and there's something not wrong. If he gets it taken care of, he's the Danny Graves of old. But him being the person he is and the warrior he is, he never said a thing about it."

Casey was especially displeased to see Graves taking a heap of blame for the team's struggles.

"For us to be 15-28 has nothing to do with Danny Graves," Casey said. "That's the frustrating part for me. I know I'm a little emotional right now, but I think the Cincinnati Reds owe a little more to Danny Graves. They owe him more than to just release him like this."

RFS62
05-24-2005, 01:39 PM
The best media managers I've ever seen were the Boone brothers, Bret and Aaron. They had both been to the Crash Davis school of baseball cliches, and knew which boilerplate to pull at what time. They came across as sincere and gave the media and fans what they wanted to hear without actually saying anything, which is perfect.

Sean Casey is what he is, a sensitive and emotional guy who places immense value on personal relationships and the kind of loyal friend everybody (except apparently Jimenez) loves to have for a teammate. That's a good thing, but consider his statements regarding Graves in that context. Casey was probably also the first Red welcoming Keisler into the clubhouse, because that's the kind of human being he is.


Very well said.

Redsland
05-24-2005, 01:40 PM
When your boss makes a decision and you call it "horrible" and "wrong" (especially to the press), you are out of line.

westofyou
05-24-2005, 01:42 PM
They owe him more than to just release him like this.

Maybe back in the day, but Marvin Miller took care of the players business years ago.

I can think of over 6 million reasons why Graves will land on his feet.

smith288
05-24-2005, 01:43 PM
Is Griffey insinuating that Graves wasnt as determined as he could be?

smith288
05-24-2005, 01:50 PM
This is what I expect from an emotional player responding to the news his best friend is no longer with the club:

"I am saddened Graves was released. Danny is a great guy and gives it his all. I hope he succeeds whereever he may end up and we all can move on."

That is all that is needed. Casey isnt warming himself to the fans when he whines about his clique being broken up.

If he wants a frat house, go back to college. If he wants a baseball profession, suck it up and keep your mouth closed.

RFS62
05-24-2005, 01:59 PM
Maybe back in the day, but Marvin Miller took care of the players business years ago.

I can think of over 6 million reasons why Graves will land on his feet.



Yeah, I can understand Casey and the other players thinking like they do. That's the clubhouse culture of a close knit team. They're rooting for a good guy to turn it around. D'Lo didn't have that going for him.

But the business aspect of this is a two edged sword. It got him a tremendous salary, after which he grossly underperformed his contract. By any objective or subjective measure available he stunk up the joint this year.

And he was the sad recipient of a ton of grief and humiliation in the sporting press since his now infamous "makes us feel small" line.

He embarrassed the Reds on and off the field, and that's not something business' allow. It was obvious that the boos were only going to escalate after Sunday. That's not the face of the Reds that the front office wants out there on the news every night.

Its business.

Patrick Bateman
05-24-2005, 02:24 PM
The players have to understand that this is not a personal move. They must realizehow bad he has been this year. Being in the last year of his contract there was no reason to keep a struggling Graves on the team because in the long run he simply wont contribute to the team. They all need to buck up and realize that MLB is more of a business than anything else and to stop taking it so personally.

johngalt
05-24-2005, 02:39 PM
"For us to be 15-28 has nothing to do with Danny Graves," Casey said. "That's the frustrating part for me. I know I'm a little emotional right now, but I think the Cincinnati Reds owe a little more to Danny Graves. They owe him more than to just release him like this."

This is the quote from Casey that gets me. How does this start have nothing to do with Graves? He was on the team, right? He blew a couple of games, right?

I am so tired of hearing Casey whine and cry about stuff like this. Get over it. Stop getting all bent out of shape when one of your buddies gets let go because the team wants to move in a different direction or thinks he has been doing a poor job.

This core of players - Casey, Graves, Griffey, LaRue, Dunn, Kearns - has been together for a few years now and has accomplished zip. That means the status quo is not working. Something has to be done. And if Casey is going to whine and complain every time a move is made, then maybe he should be the next guy out of the country club.

2001MUgrad
05-24-2005, 02:54 PM
I say see ya Danny!! I've never thought he was more than a mediocre releiver, but with that being said, it was a pretty classless move on the organization to say it was a performance only move. You can't start releasing everyone because they suck. If you want to say Danny was a timebomb and his behavior towards the fans was unacceptable, then do that. If you want to release him under those terms that's different. I still think a suspension and a fine would have had the desired affect and if he was truely regretable about his actions he would have taken the fine and the suspension and not made it into a big deal.

But, so far this year the FO has thrown away roughly $8 million of money. That's a lot of money to throw away for a team that says it can't afford to compete with STL or Chicago because its small market. Seems as though this organization from the top down resembles a chicken with its head chopped off.

TeamBoone
05-24-2005, 03:10 PM
It's hard to give Sean Casey a pass for complaining about how his employer conducts business.

You've got to be kidding me! His employer is the Cincinnati Reds FO... and they are lousey at conducting business. Besides, he didn't blatantly say that; in fact, I think he sugar coated it quite well.

I think Casey's comments are dead on. When one of your pitchers loses 10 mph in velocity over a two-yr period, don't ignore it. Just because Danny isn't hurting doesn't mean there isn't something wrong. Seems like a professional club would have had him checked out instead of just dumping him. They can say all they want, they didn't do it because of poor performance; they did it because of what was happening between Danny and the fans... something the fans would have forgotten about if he'd started to perform up to par again... something that may have happened had the Reds taken the time to find out why he wasn't performing as they'd hoped he would. After all, he was here for 8 years.

I thought this article did a pretty good job in providing a bit more info than others I've read:

Players feel sadness, anger

By Josh Katzowitz
Post staff reporter

Mike Tyson landed a big punch, and Steve Zouski hit the canvas in the third round. Zouski tried to rise from the floor, but he didn't make it on time, and he was counted out.

Tyson's domination in that 1986 match was playing on one of the TVs in the Reds clubhouse Monday after the players heard the news that closer Danny Graves had been designated for assignment.

Hardly anyone spoke, an eerie phenomenon in what's usually a lively pregame clubhouse.

By Graves' locker, the all-time Reds saves leader sat with Sean Casey, Eric Milton and Paul Wilson. They spoke in low voices, and they stared at the ground, at the Anna Kournikova calendar on the wall behind Graves' laptop computer, and back at the ground again.

The only noise came from one of the TVs where Tyson was destroying his opponent for the 19th win of his career.

The replay of the fight was apropos, because on Monday, Casey got to experience what Zouski felt nearly 20 years ago.

"This is just like getting hit in the head with a shovel," Casey said. "Guys loved Danny Graves. This will affect us negatively. I won't see Danny Graves coming in and closing out games or sitting at his locker or seeing him on the plane."

Similar sentiments were spoken throughout the clubhouse before Monday's 5-3 win against the Washington Nationals. The word that came to mind for most players was "shocking."

"It really is," Jacob Cruz said. "He's been a teammate of mine for two years, and he's one of the most-liked guys on the team. It's going to affect everybody in a different way."

For some, such a backup catcher Javier Valentin, Graves' departure was depressing and anxiety-inducing. Others, most notably Casey and Paul Wilson, felt anger.

As soon as Casey was finished paying his respects and departed from Graves' corner locker - his spot was filled by Austin Kearns, Adam Dunn and Jason LaRue, who watched as Graves packed his laptop - the media descended on him to ask for comment. The more he talked, the madder he became.

"I think it's wrong," Casey said. "He's a guy you try to find answers for. He's a guy who you check out his shoulder, because he's not going to tell you (if he's hurt). He's a gamer. He's going to take the ball and go pitch. I know the fans booed, but Gravey cares about the city, man. He's been here his whole career. He lives here. Believe me, he didn't like the boos as much as people didn't like booing him. He's not the problem here. Danny Graves isn't the problem.

"It's not his fault. We stink. It has nothing to do with Danny Graves. That's the frustrating part for me. It's a sad day for me. It just makes me sick. You give up on a guy like Danny Graves, and I just can't believe it."
Now, the Reds must believe this fact: The front office is willing to release veterans with multimillion dollar contracts - such as D'Angelo Jimenez and Graves - who aren't contributing. If that reality began to take shape when Jimenez was designated for assignment last week, it was certainly evident Monday.

"It's pretty crystal clear now," Cruz said. "We just haven't been getting it done. It's not one individual. The fact is, we have to look at ourselves and say that we haven't been getting it done. That goes for all of us. It's either produce or face the consequences."

Which make Valentin a little nervous. But that, he says, is how it should be.

"We have to play the game," Valentin said. "The game continues. It's not going to be easy. Anytime you come to the clubhouse and look in the corner, you won't see him. But it's baseball. It starts with D'Angelo and then Gravey. We're scared. If you don't do the job, you'd better do something to turn it around."

In Valentin's eyes, though, the Reds didn't just make a roster move. They also took away one of the clubhouse's key components. Especially to a player just joining the team, as was the case for Valentin last season.

"He said, 'Anything you need, let me know. We're going to be family here,' " Valentin said. "I've been here two years, and he helped me out. He gave me confidence. The way we feel in this clubhouse, it's like a family."

That sentiment probably is part of the reason Casey was so upset. That, and the fact he felt like he had just been sucker-punched in the gut.

"Right now," he said, "this is probably our lowest point since I've been a part of the Reds."

Publication date: 05-24-2005

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.../505240324/1027

traderumor
05-24-2005, 03:21 PM
You can't start releasing everyone because they suck.So, what do you do with them, extend their contract?

Redsland
05-24-2005, 03:22 PM
So, what do you do with them, extend their contract?
So far.

;)

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 03:24 PM
Casey said, "Right now, this is one of the lowest points I've been part of with the Reds and probably the lowest point of our season.



And here I thought the low point of the season was blowing a 6 run lead in the 9th against the Cards, only to lose 10-9.

Silly me.

kyred14
05-24-2005, 03:29 PM
And here I thought the low point of the season was blowing a 6 run lead in the 9th against the Cards, only to lose 10-9.

Silly me.

winning games is not important :rolleyes:

Redsland
05-24-2005, 03:31 PM
TB, my post was in the context of this thread, which was about the players' public comments, not about how the FO conducts its business. I think the FO is barely competent on its best day. But that's not what this thread is about.

All I'm saying is that an employee is expected to speak well of his employer in public, and raise objections and reservations in private. Loyalty and all that. Heck, I'm free to go to the press today and tell them how stupid my boss is, but if I do, then I should expect to find an empty box on my desk in the morning.

smith288
05-24-2005, 03:37 PM
You've got to be kidding me! His employer is the Cincinnati Reds FO... and they are lousey at conducting business. Besides, he didn't blatantly say that; in fact, I think he sugar coated it quite well.

No. You have concerns, you talk privately like I would take my concerns to my boss in private. I wouldnt go on 700wlw and say "they let ross go...he was easily my best friend in the office. He may have been having trouble keeping up with his projects and even failed on the last three, but its not his fault. We are all having trouble. This will only make the company worse..."

Hardly.

TeamBoone
05-24-2005, 03:41 PM
You're right.

johngalt
05-24-2005, 03:51 PM
No. You have concerns, you talk privately like I would take my concerns to my boss in private. I wouldnt go on 700wlw and say "they let ross go...he was easily my best friend in the office. He may have been having trouble keeping up with his projects and even failed on the last three, but its not his fault. We are all having trouble. This will only make the company worse..."

Hardly.

Exactly. There's a chain of command and proper way of doing things. Going out on TV and radio every time a guy gets released is hardly the best way to do it. If Casey really thinks that none of this is Graves' fault, then I have to wonder whose fault he thinks it is.

Tony Cloninger
05-24-2005, 03:54 PM
If Danny is hurt....he needs to tell someone. A player knows when he is hurting. He is proffessional enough to come to the team doctor and say so.

Why does the team have to do it for him? He's not the boy in the plastic bubble who needs constant attention.

I understand Casey is upset also but he goes off like DG has no accountability. Well if some of this mess is not his fault....who's is it?

What Casey seems to be saying is that any player, save for DJ, should not be released despite their poor performances......beacuse they are good guys who work hard. I think that should be commended and taken into consideration....but it cannot be the reason you keep someone. They gave DG enough rope.

Jpup
05-24-2005, 03:57 PM
If Sean is discussing Graves' salary, it sure makes me wonder whether this had an effect on Danny's performance. I can't help but think that Danny just got tired of not being over-paid like the rest of the big leaguers, and wanted a way out of it. Having said that, Sean doesn't have much room to talk. Other than being able to scoop balls out of the dirt and hit singles to right field, he really doesn't do much himself in the way of earning HIS salary.

Copied from another one of my posts. Looks to me that he is doing a little more than hitting singles to right field. and if he was, that is more than many others are doing.

Sean Casey:

This Month .341
Last 30 Days .336

T-17th Batting Avg. NL (.308)
T-3rd Doubles NL (14)
T-9th Hits NL (52)

I think it's time to bash on someone else besides Sean Casey.

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 03:59 PM
Sean Casey:

This Month .341
Last 30 Days .336

T-17th Batting Avg. NL (.308)
T-3rd Doubles NL (14)
T-9th Hits NL (52)



All the more reason to deal him.

Jpup
05-24-2005, 04:03 PM
All the more reason to deal him.

That may be true, but I am tired of reading posts about him having poor performance. I wonder sometimes, if people actually watch the games or just comment on them. With all the pitching problems the Reds have, why would someone pick Sean Casey to bash. Along with Dunn, he has made this team watchable the last few seasons. It's cool if you don't like his comments, but I see no reason why someone would throw his performance into the equation.

traderumor
05-24-2005, 04:04 PM
All the more reason to deal him. :thumbup:

EKURed
05-24-2005, 04:08 PM
All the more reason to deal him.

Agreed. I thought the Reds missed their chance in the offseason, but maybe not. How about trying to package Casey and Randa to the Dodgers as the trade deadline approaches and see what we get? Although I prefer to move Dunn to first, I will take Choi back from the Dodgers, but not as the main piece of the deal, if for nothing else he is young and he usually kills the Reds.

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 04:13 PM
Agreed. I thought the Reds missed their chance in the offseason, but maybe not. How about trying to package Casey and Randa to the Dodgers as the trade deadline approaches and see what we get? Although I prefer to move Dunn to first, I will take Choi back from the Dodgers, but not as the main piece of the deal, if for nothing else he is young and he usually kills the Reds.

We don't need Choi. If the Dodgers aren't willing to part w/ some pitching for a package like that, perhaps someone else (Atlanta) would be.

BuckU
05-24-2005, 04:14 PM
That may be true, but I am tired of reading posts about him having poor performance. I wonder sometimes, if people actually watch the games or just comment on them. With all the pitching problems the Reds have, why would someone pick Sean Casey to bash. Along with Dunn, he has made this team watchable the last few seasons. It's cool if you don't like his comments, but I see no reason why someone would throw his performance into the equation.

I don't think anybody is posting about his poor performance, those that are peeved with him right now are peeved at what he said following Graves' DFA.

...on that note, I hope he keeps up his good hitting. That was never the problem.

Jpup
05-24-2005, 04:23 PM
I don't think anybody is posting about his poor performance, those that are peeved with him right now are peeved at what he said following Graves' DFA.

...on that note, I hope he keeps up his good hitting. That was never the problem.

I know what you are saying, but that is not the case, IMO. The post I quoted above is from someone saying that he isn't earning his salary because all he does is hit singles to right field. I quoted a post last night where it was said that all he does is hit ground balls to second and on and on.

They talk about his comments, which may have been silly, but they throw in some kind of jab about his performance. I thought there was something in the rules about beating a player to death?

registerthis
05-24-2005, 04:30 PM
probably so, but the Graves move was a no brainer
So you don't think a multi-game suspension, discussions with Graves about his role with the team and discussions with other teams about a trade would have been a better course?

This just looks like a PR move by the Reds, IMO. Not that Danny wasn't pulling his weight, or that he didn't have his PR problems--he did.

But when was the last time a player the stature of Graves--and making the kind of money Danny makes--was cut by his team in the middle of a season?

This move is many things, but "no brainer" isn't one of them.

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 04:37 PM
So you don't think a multi-game suspension, discussions with Graves about his role with the team and discussions with other teams about a trade would have been a better course?

This just looks like a PR move by the Reds, IMO. Not that Danny wasn't pulling his weight, or that he didn't have his PR problems--he did.

But when was the last time a player the stature of Graves--and making the kind of money Danny makes--was cut by his team in the middle of a season?

This move is many things, but "no brainer" isn't one of them.

When was the last time a player of the stature of Graves struggled as mightily as Danny has, for so long, and then followed it up w/ a finger sign for a fan? The salute to the crowd sealed Danny's fate - he was on thin ice as it was.

BillyBeaneFan
05-24-2005, 04:55 PM
Copied from another one of my posts. Looks to me that he is doing a little more than hitting singles to right field. and if he was, that is more than many others are doing.

Sean Casey:

This Month .341
Last 30 Days .336

T-17th Batting Avg. NL (.308)
T-3rd Doubles NL (14)
T-9th Hits NL (52)

I think it's time to bash on someone else besides Sean Casey.

Where's your OPS stat? Seems a conspicuous absence.

I am glad Casey is turning things around, but that is why we need to trade him. He should have been traded last winter when people thought highly of him.

I also agree with whoever said we don't need Hee Sop Choi. Choi is another relatively punchless first baseman, and what's more than that, the Dodgers are what, his third team already? People must not like enough of what they see.

We need young pitching. But rather than going after three decent guys, I think the Reds need to target one slam dunk, even if this means packaging a good player with Casey.

westofyou
05-24-2005, 05:08 PM
But when was the last time a player the stature of Graves--and making the kind of money Danny makes--was cut by his team in the middle of a season?

Middle of the season?

Ruben Sierra May 9th 1997

registerthis
05-24-2005, 05:45 PM
When was the last time a player of the stature of Graves struggled as mightily as Danny has, for so long,
For two months? Well, Derek Jeter did, last year. Thome and Sosa (both who are injured) this year, those are just ones off the top of my head, I'm sure I can give more...


and then followed it up w/ a finger sign for a fan? The salute to the crowd sealed Danny's fate - he was on thin ice as it was.
The finger to the crowd was a mistake, but I have seen players do far worse (fight/shove fans, throw balls at them, make other lewd or obscene gestures, etc.) that didn't result in their dismissal from the team.

Danny was frustrated, the fans were frustrated etc. And while his on-field performance, honestly, sucked...he was far from the loan Red who was sucking. I can think of five starters on the team right now who have done as poorly--if not worse--than Danny Graves.

The more I view this move, the more it looks to me like a move by DanO to attempt to pacify the masses without addressing the root cause of the problem--FO and management/coaching.

registerthis
05-24-2005, 05:46 PM
Middle of the season?

Ruben Sierra May 9th 1997
In other words, it's very rare...

westofyou
05-24-2005, 05:50 PM
In other words, it's very rare...

That's just a stab in the dark... but frankly I don't care how much he was getting paid, he stunk up the joint and stated on more than one occasion that he was ...Blah, blah and they (the fans) were blah, blah.

He was overpaid and loved more in the clubhouse than outside of the clubhouse.

His peformance dictated the move.

Teams endure idiots and malcontents who perform... those that don't are advised to not buy homes in the next city they land in. Chances are the same thing that got them there will still be with them.

registerthis
05-24-2005, 06:02 PM
That's just a stab in the dark... but frankly I don't care how much he was getting paid, he stunk up the joint and stated on more than one occasion that he was ...Blah, blah and they (the fans) were blah, blah.

He was overpaid and loved more in the clubhouse than outside of the clubhouse.
That may be, but that means a decision to release him was a "no brainer"? Which is what my response was aimed at. I think the Reds had a number of option sthey could have considered, i don't think releasing him was some automatic move that everyone assumed would be made.


His peformance dictated the move.
there are a lot of players whose performance are dictating a move right now.


Teams endure idiots and malcontents who perform... those that don't are advised to not buy homes in the next city they land in. Chances are the same thing that got them there will still be with them.
Very likely, but did Graves have a history of being malcontent? If he did, it wasn't widely reported on. Seems this idea of Danny being a malcontent on the team is something that has surfaced only recently, which is one of the things that leads me to believe the situation could have been handled differently.

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 06:02 PM
Registerthis:

Graves' ERA post AS break 2004 was 7.23; he was 4-15 with a 5.33 ERA in 2003. To say he's struggled for only 2 months is a bit of an understatement.

As for your contention that others have done worse and gotten away with it, is that supposed to make it right, as if to say "such and such player got away with it, why can't he?" I frankly don't care what happens in other people's houses - DanO needs to take care of his own and he did, in the correct manner IMO.

As for not addressing the root cause of the problem, I don't know how anyone can say Danny Graves was not at the core of our problems. His pitching, as the closer mind you, has been flat out awful and has cost us games. This was one of many troubles that needed to be addressed. We'll see about the rest.

registerthis
05-24-2005, 06:07 PM
Registerthis:
Graves' ERA post AS break 2004 was 7.23; he was 4-15 with a 5.33 ERA in 2003. To say he's struggled for only 2 months is a bit of an understatement.
And to use his numbers as a starter to indicate that he is a bad reliever is an abuse of statistics. He sucked as a starter; but, then, he never should have been one to begin with.


As for your contention that others have done worse and gotten away with it, is that supposed to make it right, as if to say "such and such player got away with it, why can't he?"
No, it means that the root problem wasn't addressed-only a sympton of it. if one player is sucking and being a malcontent, that's a problem with them. When half of the team is sucking (and these are established players, not a AAAA tea, like the Royals) it's indicative of a larger, more complex problem.


I frankly don't care what happens in other people's houses - DanO needs to take care of his own and he did, in the correct manner IMO.
If you believe that Graves was the root cause of the organization's problems, then yes I would agree.

The firing of Don Gullet and Dan O'brien would have been taking care of business. the DFA of Danny Graves is merely a stopgap measure that will have little to no positive impact in the long run.


As for not addressing the root cause of the problem, I don't know how anyone can say Danny Graves was not at the core of our problems. His pitching, as the closer mind you, has been flat out awful and has cost us games.
He's the closer when the team isn't already down by 6 runs due to horrible pitching, poor hitting, and splotchy defense. yet it all fell on him? I don't see how you can make that argument.


This was one of many troubles that needed to be addressed. We'll see about the rest.
Here's a hint: it starts at the top.

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 06:13 PM
And to use his numbers as a starter to indicate that he is a bad reliever is an abuse of statistics. He sucked as a starter; but, then, he never should have been one to begin with.


No, it means that the root problem wasn't addressed-only a sympton of it. if one player is sucking and being a malcontent, that's a problem with them. When half of the team is sucking (and these are established players, not a AAAA tea, like the Royals) it's indicative of a larger, more complex problem.


If you believe that Graves was the root cause of the organization's problems, then yes I would agree.

The firing of Don Gullet and Dan O'brien would have been taking care of business. the DFA of Danny Graves is merely a stopgap measure that will have little to no positive impact in the long run.


He's the closer when the team isn't already down by 6 runs due to horrible pitching, poor hitting, and splotchy defense. yet it all fell on him? I don't see how you can make that argument.


Here's a hint: it starts at the top.

I don't care if he's been starting, closing, setting up, mopping up....he has sucked. Period. His numbers are terrible. If you can't see that, I would say you've become accustomed to mediocrity and have now accepted it as the norm.

Here's a hint: it's not

registerthis
05-24-2005, 06:19 PM
I don't care if he's been starting, closing, setting up, mopping up....he has sucked. Period. His numbers are terrible. If you can't see that, I would say you've become accustomed to mediocrity and have now accepted it as the norm.

Here's a hint: it's not
Then why are the people responsible for putting a competitive team on the field not being held accountable?

Where is the heat on Miley? Gullet? O'brien? Allen?

And you are taking a very casual view of the situation with Graves...it would be akin to placing Freel in the clean-up role in the lineup and then complaining that he sucks when he doesn't produce. It's not nearly as black and white as "He has sucked. Period."

EDIT: Please show me where, in any of my posts, I have suggested that mediocrity and poor performance are acceptable? You're arguing about things I have never said.

Cedric
05-24-2005, 06:28 PM
One thing I don't understand about this is how does losing a player that has been terrible for a long time not help the team? Of course it does. That's not to say there aren't more issues, but this gives other's oppurtunities to at least fail or shine. Graves was just holding something back, whatever it is at least we will know now.

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 06:29 PM
Then why are the people responsible for putting a competitive team on the field not being held accountable?

Where is the heat on Miley? Gullet? O'brien? Allen?

And you are taking a very casual view of the situation with Graves...it would be akin to placing Freel in the clean-up role in the lineup and then complaining that he sucks when he doesn't produce. It's not nearly as black and white as "He has sucked. Period."

But it is black and white....the numbers don't lie. His performance has not only been below standard for quite some time, it's been obscenely bad. Pitchers w/ 7+ ERAs over nearly a full season just don't last long in the majors, regardless of what they or their good buddy, first baseman feel the organization "owes them" for their service time.

And as for the Reds brass, I'm not sure what your gripe is b/c I don't see anyone on here advocating extensions for the aforementioned coaches/executives? Two major player moves have been made in the last week. If things don't change, my guess is the coaching staff will soon follow. As for OB, I think he'll be given at least 2 full seasons in his role before being relieved of his duties.

registerthis
05-24-2005, 06:34 PM
One thing I don't understand about this is how does losing a player that has been terrible for a long time not help the team? Of course it does. That's not to say there aren't more issues, but this gives other's oppurtunities to at least fail or shine. Graves was just holding something back, whatever it is at least we will know now.
What if Graves' problem was mechanical, or physical in nature? He said in an interview only a couple of days ago that they might "look at his mechanics" to see if something was wrong. To me, the fact that they haven't yet done that is indicative of this organization right now.

As to whether it will help the team, I seriously doubt it. the troubles of this team run far deeper than an ineffective closer. That O'brien seems to view this move as one that will correct the problems the team is facing and pacify the fans disturbs me.

registerthis
05-24-2005, 06:40 PM
But it is black and white....the numbers don't lie.
You say the numbers don't lie, then tell me that 41 saves is not indicative of his true performance last year. Which is it?


His performance has not only been below standard for quite some time, it's been obscenely bad. Pitchers w/ 7+ ERAs over nearly a full season just don't last long in the majors, regardless of what they or their good buddy, first baseman feel the organization "owes them" for their service time.
I've never implied that Graves is "owed" anything. My only argument has been that I think the reds--and O'brien in particular--were hasty in their decision to dismiss him. Suspend him, DL him, demote him...take some time to evaluate the decision. The decision to DFA him was quick and, seemingly, done out of reaction to his actions on the field on Sunday. NOT based on his shoddy production during the past year.


And as for the Reds brass, I'm not sure what your gripe is b/c I don't see anyone on here advocating extensions for the aforementioned coaches/executives?
I never said there wasn't. I'm talking at the FO level. Generally, when an entire TEAM is sucking this badly, a player isn't the first to go--a coach is, or a GM is, or someone in a position of ultimate responsibility is. The Reds FO seems to think that by releasing a couple of players they can right their ship.

Cedric
05-24-2005, 06:46 PM
Saves are a completely meaningless stat. And of course the FO thinks that way, what is O'brien gonna do? Fire himself?

registerthis
05-24-2005, 06:47 PM
Saves are a completely meaningless stat.
I agree...but so are numbers posted as a starter for someone who should be a reliever.

Cedric
05-24-2005, 06:48 PM
His numbers have been terrible since I believe July of last year, he wasn't a starter at all then. If you want to argue that the Reds FO ruined his career with the switch that's debateable. In my view there is no debate when you look at Graves future, he will be lucky to ever have a secure job in baseball again. He's just not good and hasn't been for awhile.

OldXOhio
05-24-2005, 06:58 PM
You say the numbers don't lie, then tell me that 41 saves is not indicative of his true performance last year. Which is it?


I've never implied that Graves is "owed" anything. My only argument has been that I think the reds--and O'brien in particular--were hasty in their decision to dismiss him. Suspend him, DL him, demote him...take some time to evaluate the decision. The decision to DFA him was quick and, seemingly, done out of reaction to his actions on the field on Sunday. NOT based on his shoddy production during the past year.


I never said there wasn't. I'm talking at the FO level. Generally, when an entire TEAM is sucking this badly, a player isn't the first to go--a coach is, or a GM is, or someone in a position of ultimate responsibility is. The Reds FO seems to think that by releasing a couple of players they can right their ship.

How about we just agree to disagree b/c this has become an exercise in futility. You can manipulate the time factor in Graves stats any way you like. You want to rest your laurels in the fact that he had 41 saves last year (over 80% of which were recorded before the AS break), be my guest. I'll stand by the fact that he struggled the entire 2003 season, had a good couple months to begin 2004, and has struggled mightily since. He's gone and other guys will now be given a chance to fill his role. I for one am glad to see both.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-24-2005, 06:59 PM
And you are taking a very casual view of the situation with Graves...it would be akin to placing Freel in the clean-up role in the lineup and then complaining that he sucks when he doesn't produce. It's not nearly as black and white as "He has sucked. Period."


Danny Graves has been an awful starter (2003) AND and for the past year+ (2004, 2005) an awful reliever. Considering the crazy amount of money he has been paid, he has been worse than awful. Whether awful at starting or awful at closing, one doesn't excuse the other's failure. He has failed in both duties. We can praise him for being the gamer to take on that role of starter in 2003, but let's not blame that failed experiment on his last two or three years of sucktitude. Danny gladly accepted the fat contract two years ago that came with accepting that role. He was compensated. But he failed in that role and then came to camp out of shape and more concerned with the durability of his remote control dune buggies than his own weak arm.

When you add his second half numbers of 2004 and his numbers from this year you get:

39 games
37 IP
7.30 ERA
18 saves / 4 blown saves

Add the fact that he has lost considerable velocity on his fastball and considerable sink and velocity to his "sinker", and the fact that opponents are hitting .350+ on him this year and .300 over the past 2+ seasons, and the fact that he cannot strike anyone out, and the fact that he has pretty much destroyed any relationship he had with the fans with his words and actions over the past few weeks and his release is well overdue.

He may be the nicest guy in the world,but IMHO he is prime example of a contract gone bad and a player that doesn't care that he's not pulling his weight until it's too late.

Good bye, Danny. Good luck.

registerthis
05-24-2005, 07:22 PM
How about we just agree to disagree b/c this has become an exercise in futility. You can manipulate the time factor in Graves stats any way you like. You want to rest your laurels in the fact that he had 41 saves last year
:rolleyes: Once again, you're simply putting words to my argument that isn't there. I'm not arguing that Graves was a good closer--or that he didn't have problems. he most certainly did.

Shoot, releasing him may end up being a move for the better. But my ultimate point is this: This move was handled prematurely and poorly. First, I don't think the decision to DFA Graves came as a result of his lackluster performance this season or last's. PLENTY of players on this team have been lackluster, yet their jobs seem quite secure. i think the decision to DFA was a shoot-from-the-hip move by the FO trying to cover their hides from fans who were looking for blood, and Danny was the most convenient target. There were any number of methods the FO could have chosen to handle this situation, I believe they chose a poor one.

Secondly, telling Graves, a member of this team for eight years and one of its most popular players, that he was being DFA'd via a phone call is simply classless.

Finally, there is no indication that anyone within the coaching or management ranks have their jobs in jeopardy. the FO seems to think that releasing a couple of players is going to turn this team around, it won't. This franchise has far deeper problems than that. Until I see members of the coaching staff--Miley, Gullet, Chambliss, etc. losing their jobs over this team's inability to produce, and until I see members of the front office--O'Brien and Allen, to name the top two--losing THEIR jobs over an inability to put together a competitive franchise, i am not goin gto be satisfied.

Danny Graves is being villified for being the symptom, not the cause, of this team's problems. He didn't help, he cost them games, he was a PR disaster the past two weeks--I don't debate any of that. But DFA'ing him was a move done more to control the PR spin than to punish him for his lack of production. I don't agree with the way that it was handled, and until the things I listed above start to happen, this franchise will continue to flounder.

westofyou
05-24-2005, 07:48 PM
Then why are the people responsible for putting a competitive team on the field not being held accountable?

They just have a a longer shelf life, most companies don't fire the executive in the first wave.

Baseball is a business off the field, the guys in the cubicals are the first to fall, usually the head of failed departments. Danny was the head of the BP, he was the first to fall after the DJ is bad he must go cut, prior to Danny's experiment with sign language anyone could have been the guy to be the symbol. danny's putrid performance and antaganizing relationship with the fans made it an easy choice.

butlerbulldogs
05-24-2005, 10:12 PM
What the heck was he supposed to say? "He's my friend but he stinks as a pitcher and I'm glad he's gone."

I think all the players should give up talking to the media... just say "no comment" because every time they open their mouths, everyone picks their words apart until they lose all meaning, are distorted beyond comprehension, or assume they are saying something that they're not. Of course, they don't know that unless they're reading this board.

These are human beings folks! And, in their working environment, this is a tragedy to them... just as it would be to you if one of your dear colleagues was fired. Please, give the guys some slack.

if someone i was working w/ and i was friends w/ was fired for performance detrimental to the company, as well as flipping off customers, i would think it was for the good of the organization and move on...you can stilll be friends, no matter how far they live apart, they make 6 million a year, they can fly there and stay at the nicest places and play the new xbox360 together in the fall

KittyDuran
05-25-2005, 09:01 AM
What the heck was he supposed to say? "He's my friend but he stinks as a pitcher and I'm glad he's gone."

I think all the players should give up talking to the media... just say "no comment" because every time they open their mouths, everyone picks their words apart until they lose all meaning, are distorted beyond comprehension, or assume they are saying something that they're not. Of course, they don't know that unless they're reading this board.

These are human beings folks! And, in their working environment, this is a tragedy to them... just as it would be to you if one of your dear colleagues was fired. Please, give the guys some slack.I'd kept my mouth shut [and I have on numerous occasions in the workplace]. A lot of the times I don't know all the facts so its best to do so. But that's in the "real" world... ;) Didn't someone suggest having a "gag" order placed on the team after something like this goes down... [WV?] That should be in place the next time.

KittyDuran
05-25-2005, 09:02 AM
if someone i was working w/ and i was friends w/ was fired for performance detrimental to the company, as well as flipping off customers, i would think it was for the good of the organization and move on...you can stilll be friends, no matter how far they live apart, they make 6 million a year, they can fly there and stay at the nicest places and play the new xbox360 together in the fallAnd IIRC, Graves and Casey live pretty close together...

michst
05-25-2005, 09:21 AM
If this was some player with only 2 years service time and they had the results Danny did in the past year, they would have been released exactly the same way, and nobody would have complained. (not even adding into it about the comments of the fans).

Has any player ever had 7+ ERA for such a long streak (all star until now) and not been demoted or released?

registerthis
05-25-2005, 10:29 AM
They just have a a longer shelf life, most companies don't fire the executive in the first wave.

Baseball is a business off the field, the guys in the cubicals are the first to fall, usually the head of failed departments. Danny was the head of the BP, he was the first to fall after the DJ is bad he must go cut, prior to Danny's experiment with sign language anyone could have been the guy to be the symbol. danny's putrid performance and antaganizing relationship with the fans made it an easy choice.
Well, that may all be true, but it doesn't explain the continued employment of one Mr. Don Gullet.

Ron Madden
05-26-2005, 05:40 AM
I admire Casey and Dunn for their loyalty BUT..
Many of Dannys teamates and most of the beat writers respect him as "a great guy". I'm sure he is.

The fact is his preformance and hell with it state of mind hurt this team.
I'd bet Graves has allowed more runs scored than any other closer with at least 100 saves. Sure he saved over 180 games, how many times did he come in in the 9th with a 3 run lead just to save a 1 run victory?

If his arm hurts he should've told Gully, Miley or Doc Kremcheck.
Danny never seemd to care if The Reds won or lost. Hey we tried our best!
What the heck let's cash our checks and have Fun.

Finishing under .500 five years in a row is no Fun for the Fans the players left in the Cincinnati clubhouse should take note.