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TeamBoone
06-05-2005, 12:47 PM
Looks to me like all the players are so frustrated that they're getting a bit touchy... who can blame them!

Sunday, June 5, 2005

Coaches meet with Wagner
Gesture toward LaRue Friday night not well received
By John Fay, Enquirer staff writer

DENVER - Ryan Wagner was called into Reds manager Dave Miley's office after Friday's 12-4 loss to the Colorado Rockies.

Miley, pitching coach Don Gullett and bullpen coach Tom Hume weren't upset with Wagner because he gave up six runs in two-thirds of an inning.

They talked to Wagner about showing up teammate Jason LaRue on the field.

After LaRue held the ball rather than throw to first and complete a double play, Wagner twice gave LaRue the "what were you thinking?" gesture with his hands.

LaRue didn't want to talk about the incident.

"That's not something the press needs to know about," he said.

Miley chose not to talk about the incident either.

Wagner was obviously very frustrated with his performance. Of the six hits he gave up, four were infield hits and two were bloop singles.

"I don't know what to say," Wagner said. "I did what I do - got groundballs - I just didn't get a lot of outs."

Wagner's ERA went from 3.54 to 5.34 with the outing.

COORS CURE: Austin Kearns came into Friday's game 0-for-his-last-21. He promptly went 3-for-5 with a double and a home run.

"I didn't swing that well in Houston," Kearns said. "But I felt pretty good against Pittsburgh (at home). I was hitting the ball at people."

Kearns is trying to take a different approach. "I'm trying to be more aggressive," he said. "I'm trying to have better at-bats, hit the ball hard somewhere."

MORE KEARNS: The Atlanta Braves have been making inquiries about Austin Kearns.

The Braves designated right fielder Raul Mondesi for assignment on May 31.

The Reds don't talk about trades but general manager Dan O'Brien has said the Reds don't intend to trade any of their four outfielders.

FREEL SITS: Miley's lineup for Saturday's game did not create the kind of stir Friday's did.

That's because Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn were in it. But Ryan Freel was not.

Freel went into Saturday 3-for-his-last-18 (.167).

Rich Aurilia, who homered Friday night, made his second straight start at second base.

WILY MO UPDATE: Wily Mo Peņa went 1-for-4 for Triple-A Louisville in the Bats' 3-0 loss to Syracuse Saturday.

Peņa told reporters Saturday that he expects to complete his rehab assignment Monday and return to the Reds Tuesday.

HUDSON UPDATE: In his rehab start with Double-A Chattanooga, right-hander Luke Hudson pitched 6 2/3 innings Saturday, allowing four runs on six hits. Hudson walked one and struck out seven.

TOUGH CALL: Sean Casey was stunned when he was charged with an error Friday night on a ball hit by Garrett Atkins in the seventh. "If that's an error, I don't know what a hit is," Casey said. "It was rocket. I went to the right to get it. I've got a bruise on my finger where it hit."

UP NEXT: The Reds wrap up the three-game series with Rockies today with a 3:05 p.m. game. Brandon Claussen (2-3, 3.89 ERA) faces Jason Jennings (3-6, 5.83).

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050605/SPT04/506050366/1071/SPT04

2001MUgrad
06-05-2005, 12:56 PM
If it was up to me, I'd lock up Kearns and Pena long term and try to trade Dunn while his stock is decently high. Maybe Dunn will mature, but he has got to be the worst clutch hitter for a power guy in baseball history. I'd rather have Aurilla at the plate with runners in scoring position than Dunn.

westofyou
06-05-2005, 12:59 PM
That's just funny

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2005, 01:05 PM
If it was up to me, I'd lock up Kearns and Pena long term and try to trade Dunn while his stock is decently high. Maybe Dunn will mature, but he has got to be the worst clutch hitter for a power guy in baseball history. I'd rather have Aurilla at the plate with runners in scoring position than Dunn.

I can't think of another superstar player that was as underappreciated by his home fans as Dunn. Well maybe Mike Schmidt.

Dunn w/RISP-.205/.475/.462

Aurilia w/RISP-.194/.231/.250

KronoRed
06-05-2005, 01:09 PM
A fight in the dugout would do wonders for team chemistry ;)

Aronchis
06-05-2005, 01:15 PM
I can't think of another superstar player that was as underappreciated by his home fans as Dunn. Well maybe Mike Schmidt.

Dunn w/RISP-.205/.475/.462

Aurilia w/RISP-.194/.231/.250

That is because Dunn isn't a slasher like Pena or Lopez which isn't nearly as pretty to watch. When he slumps, he looks to the naked eye, to be a horrid ballplayer. Even though his slumps compared to Pena or Lopez's are much more productive.

westofyou
06-05-2005, 01:17 PM
I can't think of another superstar player that was as underappreciated by his home fans as Dunn. Well maybe Mike Schmidt.

Dunn w/RISP-.205/.475/.462

Aurilia w/RISP-.194/.231/.250

Schmidt



RISP 1973 - .196/.284/.467 - 23
RISP 1974 - .325/.471/.643 - 24
RISP 1975 - .244/.373/.477 - 25
RISP 1976 - .287/.398/.556 - 26
RISP 1977 - .232/.400/.448 - 27
RISP 1978 - .219/.375/.438 - 28
RISP 1979 - .230/.387/.466 - 29

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2005, 01:17 PM
One more question.

Why do fans give Dunn hell for posting a .950+ OPS and Kearns gets a free pass for playing below his talent level?

Same goes for Pena. He strikesouts as much as Dunn while taking a walk per month, but nobody criticizes him? :confused:

What has Dunn did to deserve all this flak?

TC81190
06-05-2005, 01:18 PM
What has Dunn did to deserve all this flak?

Hit .215 that one year and struck out 195 times that other year.

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2005, 01:22 PM
Hit .215 that one year and struck out 195 times that other year.

Still posted a .354 OB%/.465 SLG in his "down" year when everyone was whispering things in his ear.

Dunn finished 16th in the majors with a .956 OPS last year..despite 195 K's. He slightly outproduced Casey, who struckout about 150 times less than Dunn.

RANDY IN INDY
06-05-2005, 01:23 PM
What has Dunn did to deserve all this flak?

I think it has to do with the tremendous potential that everyone see's in Adam Dunn. He does a lot of things right, and I don't think anyone will argue that, but when you have the potential that he has, it sometimes is a curse. People always expect more and have less patience with any slump or flaw in the armour.

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2005, 01:25 PM
Schmidt



RISP 1973 - .196/.284/.467 - 23
RISP 1974 - .325/.471/.643 - 24
RISP 1975 - .244/.373/.477 - 25
RISP 1976 - .287/.398/.556 - 26
RISP 1977 - .232/.400/.448 - 27
RISP 1978 - .219/.375/.438 - 28
RISP 1979 - .230/.387/.466 - 29

Thanks for posting that.

I guess Schmidtty wasn't "clutch." ;) I bet this board would have been all over him too.

westofyou
06-05-2005, 01:25 PM
Dunn finished 16th in the majors with a .956 OPS last year..despite 195 K's.

And became only the FIFTH Red ALLTIME to get 80 EBH in a season... oh and he needed the least amount of ab's to get it too.

westofyou
06-05-2005, 01:27 PM
Thanks for posting that.

I guess Schmidtty wasn't "clutch." ;) I bet this board would have been all over him too.



Johnny Bench

MVP 1970 RISP - .318/.390/.682
MVP 1972 RISP - .258/.388/.454

Matt700wlw
06-05-2005, 01:30 PM
A fight in the dugout would do wonders for team chemistry ;)

It worked in 1990...

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2005, 01:32 PM
And became only the FIFTH Red ALLTIME to get 80 EBH in a season... oh and he needed the least amount of ab's to get it too.

With roughly 300 of his PA's coming in the #5 or 6 slot and with scrubs like Brandon Larson, Juan Castro, and Javier Valentin protecting him.

RANDY IN INDY
06-05-2005, 01:35 PM
Looks to me like all the players are so frustrated that they're getting a bit touchy... who can blame them!

There's bound to be a lot of frustration in that clubhouse, and it will continue to fester and get worse if the status quo is maintained. It will start to be all about individual statistics and the team concept will deteriorate. Finger pointing will begin and factions will emerge. I think it is one of the worst things that can happen to a baseball team.

Tommyjohn25
06-05-2005, 01:48 PM
Funny how adversity seems to be causing turbulence to "Phi Cappa Reds". It is actually depressing, but the buddy buddy concept hasn't produced a playoff team for the reds either.

Unassisted
06-05-2005, 02:01 PM
If Wagner had shown up Johnny Bench like that, Bench wouldn't have needed any coaches to let Wagner know that was a bad idea.

Team Clark
06-05-2005, 02:29 PM
If Wagner had shown up Johnny Bench like that, Bench wouldn't have needed any coaches to let Wagner know that was a bad idea.

That's if Perez and Morgan would not have made it to him first.

Team Clark
06-05-2005, 02:30 PM
A fight in the dugout would do wonders for team chemistry ;)

True...but they would all go after Miley!!! :laugh: Can you imagine that? What would ol' Carl do then? Fire the whole team and leave Miley?

MartyFan
06-05-2005, 04:51 PM
If Wagner had shown up Johnny Bench like that, Bench wouldn't have needed any coaches to let Wagner know that was a bad idea.

If LaRue was a 10th of the catcher Johnny Bench was he'd have the right to not be questioned for not playing out a fundamental play.

All of this tells me that not only is there a division between FO and Field Managers, Field Managers and PLayers but now also players and players...this could get really bad really quick...I mean, REALLY BAD!

TC81190
06-05-2005, 05:33 PM
I got dinged because of my post about Dunn. :angry:
I wasn't agreeing with those reasons, I'm just saying that's why. :angry:

And whoever left that (it was anonymous :lol: ) I have never said a thing about Dunn's BA. And you leave the comment "Still on average, huh?". :rolleyes:

Redmachine2003
06-05-2005, 05:51 PM
If it was up to me, I'd lock up Kearns and Pena long term and try to trade Dunn while his stock is decently high. Maybe Dunn will mature, but he has got to be the worst clutch hitter for a power guy in baseball history. I'd rather have Aurilla at the plate with runners in scoring position than Dunn.
I would trade all three and get as much good pitching I could along with a couple of young AA hitting prospects.

OnBaseMachine
06-05-2005, 06:05 PM
I got dinged because of my post about Dunn. :angry:
I wasn't agreeing with those reasons, I'm just saying that's why. :angry:

And whoever left that (it was anonymous :lol: ) I have never said a thing about Dunn's BA. And you leave the comment "Still on average, huh?". :rolleyes:

It wasn't me.

It's ridiculous people ding you just for disagreeing with them. I have only negitivized one person..and I signed it as OBM.

Tony Cloninger
06-05-2005, 06:50 PM
How does one know if they got dinged and who it was who dinged them?

Plus.....how do i get one of those ! signs with the red lettering. I feel left out.

Is this part of being a memeber of the Stonecutters?? Am i higher up than Monty Burns?

alexad
06-05-2005, 06:56 PM
I have been dinged a few times with no response. I figure it was because I did not agree with someone with over a 200 rating. I had someone call me out saying a comment I made was based on something they had said on another thread and said I was being sarcastic.

If I need dinged, then ding me, but other than that I would like to get some rep points for my comments.

I find it funny there are more of the 200 rep points guy posting on Reds Live and hardly ever posting on the big boys thread.

TeamBoone
06-05-2005, 07:19 PM
I've been dinged twice by people with over 200 rep points. Ignore it!

Tony, check your user CP... it's in there.

traderumor
06-05-2005, 07:25 PM
Wagner also gave an eye roll the other night when Dunn and Griffey let a fly ball fall between them. Personally, I think he's fed up with crappy play and has higher expectations, yet he's not one of those vets out in the bullpen. How could he be figuring out that his team stinks at such a young age? :evil:

Tony Cloninger
06-05-2005, 07:35 PM
Thanks alexad and TB.

I actually got bumped up pretty quickly....to those who gave me points....i would just like to say "You like me....you really...really like me."

To those who took points off....... I will find you! :evil:

Seriously though.....i cannot see really nailing someone except if they are just being jerks. You know....not enough Grande....more like DJ.

Mutaman
06-05-2005, 07:36 PM
There's never any excuse for showing up a teammate. This confirms my feeling that Wagner really needs to grow up. When you list the major disappointments this year, Wagner is right up at the top.

alexad
06-05-2005, 10:13 PM
Thanks alexad and TB.

I actually got bumped up pretty quickly....to those who gave me points....i would just like to say "You like me....you really...really like me."

To those who took points off....... I will find you! :evil:

Seriously though.....i cannot see really nailing someone except if they are just being jerks. You know....not enough Grande....more like DJ.

Tony

Just remember us little folks who continue to post in hopes of being like you someday.

Redsland
06-05-2005, 11:06 PM
There's never any excuse for showing up a teammate. This confirms my feeling that Wagner really needs to grow up. When you list the major disappointments this year, Wagner is right up at the top.
Oh, please. The kid is 22 years old. No, he shouldn't have embarassed his catcher, but he's been talked to, and it won't happen again.

When was he supposed to learn how to be a professional? During his six whole weeks in the minors?

RedsFan75
06-05-2005, 11:40 PM
What no one has really addressed.... Is why didn't LaRure make the throw to complete a double play. It sounds to me like it was a pretty straight-forward play and he just didn't make ie?

Sure Wagner has been talked to, but did anyone talk to LaRue??

Cedric
06-05-2005, 11:44 PM
I hate dinging, I did it one time because someone wanted Rich Aurilla to get hit in the face with a baseball. But back to the subject. Didn't John Allen want Krivsky? Maybe we at least have him somewhat on our side.
And I personally love Wagner's attitude. It's about time someone cared about what happened on the field and showed some spark. I can't stand Carlos Zambrano because of his baby attitude, but I'd kill for his arm and his heart right about now. This team looks to be built on a bunch of players that care more about chatting at first base and crying about teamates traded, instead of winning games. I think a lot of people are fed up with it.

Redfan75- That's the point. Where is the friggin accountability on this team? I've seen Larue make countless bonehead physical and mental errors the last few years and he's the catcher. This isn't just minimal stuff either, he does it a lot. The lax attitude of this team is just wearing real thin.

TeamBoone
06-06-2005, 01:13 AM
I've seen Larue make countless bonehead physical and mental errors the last few years and he's the catcher. This isn't just minimal stuff either, he does it a lot. The lax attitude of this team is just wearing real thin.

You can complain about a lot of things, but LaRue being lax is certainly not one of them. He probably has the most fire of just about anyone on this team.

If he thought he could make the play, there's no doubt in my mind that he would have tried.

Cedric
06-06-2005, 01:21 AM
I shouldn't have used the word lax. Maybe it's just the general feeling that he isn't competent behind the plate. I don't know how many runs he's given up with stupid mental and phsyical mistakes. I've never seen a player mishandle so many throws from the outfield and mishandle so many pitches behind the plate.

Jpup
06-06-2005, 01:43 AM
I shouldn't have used the word lax. Maybe it's just the general feeling that he isn't competent behind the plate. I don't know how many runs he's given up with stupid mental and phsyical mistakes. I've never seen a player mishandle so many throws from the outfield and mishandle so many pitches behind the plate.

i think Larue would say, "You try catching this mess." :D

kyred14
06-06-2005, 03:49 AM
rumor has it larue took a swing at wagner................





and as usual he missed :evil:

MartyFan
06-06-2005, 08:07 AM
I think maybe the team was teaching Wagner a lesson about showing up his mates on the field.

Think about that game...LaRue holds the ball...Freel, Dunn and Junior all misplay fly balls that allow runs to score...Casey, Randa and Lopez all have miscues in the same game...not errors...miscues.

Wagner young, immature, green, whaterver you want to call him is a WINNER. Tough lesson to learn and maybe tacking a couple points to his ERA will bring him back into the team...of course...maybe if this team didn't suck so bad and with such ease...he wouldn't role his eyes or call out his catcher?

This team finds new ways to suck every day...and that is an entire team effort...the manager, coaches, superstars, crusty veterans, rookies...seriously it is good to see the entire team coming together to suck so bad...a real commitment from the entire organization.

remdog
06-06-2005, 08:35 AM
One more question.

What has Dunn did to deserve all this flak?

As I was reading through this thread I was going to give my thoughts on that question. Fortunately, my 'ghost writter', Randy saved me the time. :)

You're right on the money, IMO, Randy.

Rem

OldXOhio
06-06-2005, 08:55 AM
I can't think of another superstar player that was as underappreciated by his home fans as Dunn.

Nah, don't let any of the ignorance you see on here make you think that's representative of how the majority feels. Every fan base has their share, the Reds are no different.

Blimpie
06-06-2005, 09:06 AM
Wagner also gave an eye roll the other night when Dunn and Griffey let a fly ball fall between them. Personally, I think he's fed up with crappy play and has higher expectations, yet he's not one of those vets out in the bullpen. How could he be figuring out that his team stinks at such a young age? :evil:Yep....or quite possibly, he is lamenting the fact that his college team had more "stuff" top to bottom that this pitching staff possesses...

Johnny Footstool
06-06-2005, 09:34 AM
What has Dunn did to deserve all this flak?

People "know" that low batting average and strikeouts are "bad."

Funny how they base their opinions on those two statistics, but if you try to show them that those particular numbers don't show the whole picture, you get called a "stat geek."

KronoRed
06-06-2005, 09:36 AM
I want the bunt and bat avg outlawed.

Johnny Footstool
06-06-2005, 09:36 AM
And whoever left that (it was anonymous)

Didn't the mods change the system to prevent people from leaving anonymous feedback???

2001MUgrad
06-06-2005, 11:12 AM
People "know" that low batting average and strikeouts are "bad."

Funny how they base their opinions on those two statistics, but if you try to show them that those particular numbers don't show the whole picture, you get called a "stat geek."

I am basing my opinion on what the hitters role is with the team.

I think we can all agree Dunn should be knocking in runs. So, to me, his OBA doesn't mean anything so that would also mean to me that his OPS doesn't mean anything either. With an RBI guy you should look at RBI's and then at HR and then at AVG. With Dunn, he has 28 RBI's on 14 HR's. That's an insane ratio. Look at Griffey 36 RBI's on only 8 HR and he didn't start doing anything until May. Or look at Lopez 26 RBI's on 8 HR. Now, after the RBI/HR stats I'll go to BA, which .236 "ain't gettin' the job done."

The problem with Dunn as I see it is that its not a 2005 trend, its a career trend. Hit HR, or strikeout. I realize he has hit some HR with guys on 3rd base, but that says a lot to say that he hasn't had a sac fly since 03. If a guy hits 46 HR like he did last year he needs to have somewhere around 120 or 130 RBI's. I realize that you need to get them on to get them in. But, with Freel, Lopez, and Cassey all batting in front of him and batting over .300 along with Griffey he has been hitting the ball well over the last few weeks, they are getting on. Also, if you average things out, assuming he gets the same number of AB's as he did last year he would strike out 195 times again. Coinsedence??

I'm not knocking Dunn, I like Dunn, I'd have to say he is one of my favorite players, but looking at what this team needs as a whole, he is the most likely to be traded to get what they need. The Reds have too many strikeout players right now and IMO that is whats killing then, that's why they left 75 runners on base over the weekend. But, Dunn is the most tradeable peice right now. Griff is stuck here, you could trade Kearns and Pena, but neither are proven so neither would fetch too much on the Open Market. But, teams would love to get Dunn's 40-50 HR a year. Heck, I'd bet one day he'll hit 70. But, the improvement in him isn't there. They could move him to 1B next year if they let Cassey walk, but that isn't going to fix anything. They need more speed in the lineup and more starting pitching and well releif pitching as well. Dunn could get 2 of the 3 if not all 3 in a Trade.

westofyou
06-06-2005, 11:17 AM
I think we can all agree Dunn should be knocking in runs.

His first job is not make an out.


The problem with Dunn as I see it is that its not a 2005 trend, its a career trend. Hit HR, or strikeout.

Dunn hits doubles too


CINCINNATI REDS
CAREER
2002-2004
AT BATS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

DOUBLES 2B AB
1 Sean Casey 88 1569
2 Adam Dunn 74 1484
3 Barry Larkin 68 1094
4 Jason LaRue 64 1122
5 Aaron Boone 57 1009
6 Austin Kearns 45 881
7 Todd Walker 42 612
8 D'Angelo Jimenez 41 853
T9 Ken Griffey Jr. 38 663
T9 Juan Castro 38 701

EXTRA BASE HITS EBH AB
1 Adam Dunn 176 1484
2 Sean Casey 137 1569
3 Jason LaRue 110 1122
4 Aaron Boone 106 1009
5 Barry Larkin 91 1094
6 Austin Kearns 87 881
7 Ken Griffey Jr. 80 663
8 D'Angelo Jimenez 65 853
9 Juan Castro 57 701
10 Todd Walker 56 612

Johnny Footstool
06-06-2005, 11:22 AM
As westofyou explained in another thread, Dunn's low RBI total can easily be attributed to the fact that he's been given no protection in the batting order. When runners are on base ahead of him, he gets pitched around.


If a guy hits 46 HR like he did last year he needs to have somewhere around 120 or 130 RBI's.

RBIs depend mostly on the other players in the lineup. Why would you judge a player based on how the rest of the lineup performs?

westofyou
06-06-2005, 11:27 AM
If a guy hits 46 HR like he did last year he needs to have somewhere around 120 or 130 RBI's.


HOMERUNS YEAR HR RBI
T1 Willie Mays 1965 52 112
T1 Mark McGwire 1996 52 113
3 Brady Anderson 1996 50 110
T4 Harmon Killebrew 1964 49 111
T4 Sammy Sosa 2002 49 108
T4 Barry Bonds 2000 49 106
T7 Dave Kingman 1979 48 115
T7 Frank Howard 1969 48 111
T9 Willie Mays 1964 47 111
T9 Ted Kluszewski 1955 47 113
T9 Troy Glaus 2000 47 102

SteelSD
06-06-2005, 11:53 AM
The Reds have too many strikeout players right now and IMO that is whats killing then, that's why they left 75 runners on base over the weekend.

The Reds didn't HAVE 75 Runners on base over the weekend, much less strand that many. The Reds had 46 baserunners they didn't kill on the bases via GIDP or CS and 15 of them scored. That's a success rate of around 33%. The NL Average, not including Runners reached via Error, in 2005 is 38%. Include Runners reaching via Error, and you're down around 36%. That's a 3% differential over the weekend versus the NL average.

46 x .03= 1 Run

Runners erased from the basepaths this weekend via GIDP or CS= 3

3 x .33= 1 Run

OBP should start to mean something to you because the cure for what ails any offense is to produce more baserunners by making fewer Outs. But then, when a team gives up 27 Runs in a three-game set, the problem is most decidedly not the offense.

TC81190
06-06-2005, 12:06 PM
It's also hard for Dunn to knock in runners that are constantly getting themselves out on the basepaths ( :romano: ). :D

Mutaman
06-06-2005, 12:40 PM
Oh, please. The kid is 22 years old. No, he shouldn't have embarassed his catcher, but he's been talked to, and it won't happen again.

When was he supposed to learn how to be a professional? During his six whole weeks in the minors?

Talk about your permissive society. You learn not to publically show up a teamate in High School, hell, I learned it in grade school. Most little leaguers know that. This isn't really something you need to be taught. It's an inate sense of class and knowing basic right from wrong.

deltachi8
06-06-2005, 12:43 PM
OBP should start to mean something to you because the cure for what ails any offense is to produce more baserunners by making fewer Outs. But then, when a team gives up 27 Runs in a three-game set, the problem is most decidedly not the offense.

I enjoy the debates regarding "clutch" hitting as much as anyone, but please read what Steel wrote above...

It's the pitching...all about the pitching.

flyer85
06-06-2005, 12:43 PM
I am basing my opinion on what the hitters role is with the team.I think we can all agree Dunn should be knocking in runs. what about scoring runs? Dunn is leading the team in runs scored by a decent margin while hitting 5/6 all year. That is almost impossible to do.

deltachi8
06-06-2005, 12:44 PM
what about scoring runs? Dunn is leading the team in runs scored by a decent margin while hitting 5/6 all year. That is almost impossible to do.

gee, imagine what that number would look like if he hit 2nd or 3rd...

westofyou
06-06-2005, 12:47 PM
gee, imagine what that number would look like if he hit 2nd or 3rd...

Yep, he also wouldn't have as many walks as the next 2 Reds (with the most walks) combined, unless of course they pitched to him.... and isn't that what we all want to see?

deltachi8
06-06-2005, 12:53 PM
still baffles me how the best OB guy you have batts 5th...wait, i forgot who the "brain trust" is...now I understand.

Casey_21
06-06-2005, 12:57 PM
As westofyou explained in another thread, Dunn's low RBI total can easily be attributed to the fact that he's been given no protection in the batting order. When runners are on base ahead of him, he gets pitched around.



RBIs depend mostly on the other players in the lineup. Why would you judge a player based on how the rest of the lineup performs?

Yes, Yes, Yes THANK YOU!!! You have to look at how poorly the Reds have been playing. I mean up untill recently, no one was really hitting. So how in the world can Dunn get all these RBI's with no one on base to knock in? Or like you stated Footie, with RISP, he will more then likely be walked. Though, I know Dunner ain't playing as well as we all know he could, I think he should stop being harrassed with the RBI issue so much.

flyer85
06-06-2005, 12:59 PM
People want to model Dunn to their perception of what he should be instead of realizing what he is. He is not going to be high RBI guy with that high BB rate(jast as Bonds hasn't in last 3-4 years). The Reds waste his high OBP by hitting him 5th. He should be batting in front of guys who could drive him in and also might force teams to pitch to him more.

I would like to see this

Freel
Dunn
Pena
Jr
Lopez
Casey
Randa
Larue

You could even argue flipping Lopez and Pena. I am still not sold on WMP's OBP being very high but there is no doubt he is going to slug at a high rate. Casey still gets decent RBI opps batting in the 6th hole and his lack of speed and power doesn't hurt nearly as much there.

I am pretty sure kearns is going back to the bench starting tomorrow and you can't argue he doesn't deserve it. I think he is just a guy who struggles to play well looking over his shoulder.

deltachi8
06-06-2005, 01:28 PM
I would like to see this

Freel
Dunn
Pena
Jr
Lopez
Casey
Randa
Larue




I can certainly live with that lineup...

2001MUgrad
06-06-2005, 02:00 PM
what about scoring runs? Dunn is leading the team in runs scored by a decent margin while hitting 5/6 all year. That is almost impossible to do.

Batting 6th and leading the team in Runs is crazy. I realize its true, which is part of the problem with this team. I know much of April DJ was batting leadoff, but he hasn't really hit up there in a month. But, when Aurillo and DJ were batting up front and Griff was struggling thats when Dunn was hitting about .280 or .300. Now that Freel(.376 OBP), Lopez(.362 OBP), Cassey(.376 OBP), Griffey(.338OBP), and sometimes Randa(.364 OBP) are up hitting in front of him he isn't hitting.

Its amazing to me that when no one was on base in the beginning of the year he hits, now that runners are on base, which they are, he can't hit. The four guys batting in front of Dunn are getting on at least 3 out of 10 times, which means in any given game he is going to have 2-5 runners on base. And probably most nights will have more than 1 runner in scoring position. Good things happen when you get the ball in play(see friday nights game).

He scores lots of runs, well, are the Reds going to be able to lock him up long term at about 3-5 million a year which is what a run scorer gets?? Nope, they are going to have to pay him like an RBI guy, which he isn't getting the job done. On the current pace assuming he gets the same amount of AB's as he did last year Dunn will have:

108 Runs
137 Hits
44 HR
89 RBI's
143 BB

I would think some of those numbers would pick up a little bit, but I wouldn't expect much of a pickup. It just doesn't seem like he is getting better like he should be in his mid 20's. I like the guy and I hope he breaks Hand Aaron's HR record, but unless he starts getting better he won't.
And, I think with his fan draw because of his HR, he could be traded and get a good return for him. They will NOT keep all 4 OF's. They will be able to get the most in return for him and be able to address several different needs.
I want to see the team get better and I think this is the quickest way to do it.

Red Leader
06-06-2005, 02:06 PM
I want to see the team get better and I think this is the quickest way to do it.

We've witnessed the "quick way" far too many times in recent memory. It's time they do things the "right way", don't ya think? There is no "quick way" to making this team into a contender. DanO has seen to that.

flyer85
06-06-2005, 02:12 PM
Still trying to fit Dunn into a box of your own construction(The smart thing to do would be to analyze his skills and take advantage of them not lament ones he doesn't have). His two strongest skills are getting on base and hitting HRs. To take advantage of the OBP he needs to bat at the top of the order. If he had been batting 2nd or 3rd he probably would be on pace to socre 130+ runs. WHich would be at the very top of the league in runs scored which Pujols led the league is last year with 133.

Seems to me the intelligent way to manage people is to discover their strengths and play to them, lamenting their weaknesses or trying to make them something they are not is a waste of time.

SteelSD
06-06-2005, 02:12 PM
The two lineup slots directly in front of Dunn will have the most effect on his RBI totals. I've posted this before, but let's try it again:

2005 OBP/SLG (NL Rank)

#3 Slot- .368 OBP (9th), .436 SLG (10th)
#4 Slot- .328 OBP (15th), .442 SLG (15th)

Now, as for "getting better"...

Adam Dunn RC/27 Outs:

2004- 7.92 RC/27
2005- 8.28 RC/27

That's "better".

Chip R
06-06-2005, 03:45 PM
Talk about your permissive society. You learn not to publically show up a teamate in High School, hell, I learned it in grade school. Most little leaguers know that. This isn't really something you need to be taught. It's an inate sense of class and knowing basic right from wrong.And everybody makes mistakes especially when they are frustrated. He had a very frustrating inning and he lost his cool. It happens to everyone and I'm sure he's been told not to do it again. It's not like he took a bat to someone's head.

RANDY IN INDY
06-06-2005, 03:48 PM
And everybody makes mistakes especially when they are frustrated. He had a very frustrating inning and he lost his cool. It happens to everyone and I'm sure he's been told not to do it again. It's not like he took a bat to someone's head.

Now there's an idea. I can think of a few candidates for that honor. ;)

RedlegJake
06-06-2005, 07:03 PM
Talk about your permissive society. You learn not to publically show up a teamate in High School, hell, I learned it in grade school. Most little leaguers know that. This isn't really something you need to be taught. It's an inate sense of class and knowing basic right from wrong.

Thank you. As a Pony league coach I stress this kind of thing, most of my fellow coaches do too. I know I know coach Musser at Benton HS (#1 in Missouri btw!! Go Cards!) here in Saint Joe stresses it, two of my sons played for him. Wags was frustrated, understandable, but you got something to say to a teammate, that's what the trainer's room is for.

As for LaRue, if Miley is any kind of a manager, he DID have something to say to LaRue, but no one else would know about it.