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savafan
06-09-2005, 03:18 PM
Isn't Megiddo where the apocalyptic battle of Armageddon is said to take place?

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/050608/ap/d8ajn5do0.html

The militant Islamic Jihad on Wednesday presented pictures of torn copies of the Islamic holy book, the Quran, claimed they were taken inside an Israeli prison and said soldiers were responsible for the desecration. Israel denied the charge and said the pictures were a fabrication.

The Islamic Jihad transmitted the pictures by e-mail to a reporter in the West Bank. They show two Qurans with torn pages. The militants said prisoners took the pictures with cellular telephones sent them electronically to militant leaders.

The militants said Wednesday that soldiers desecrated six or seven Qurans as they searched Palestinian prisoners' cells at the Megiddo jail in northern Israel early Tuesday. The prisoners were outside the cells at the time but could see what was going on, the Islamic Jihad militants said.

The charges closely followed a report in Newsweek _ later retracted _ that American soldiers flushed a Quran down the toilet at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba. The report set off deadly riots in the Muslim world.

The Pentagon later issued a report of its own in which the military acknowledged five instances of mistreatment of the Quran at Guantanamo Bay.

The charges against Israeli soldiers originally surfaced on Tuesday, when prisoners charged that soldiers tore three Qurans and stepped on them. In a later version, they said soldiers ripped pages out of one Quran.

The Israeli Prisons Authority had its own conflicting versions on Tuesday as well. At first, a spokesman said that as a soldier searched an old Quran, pages fell from it, and he put them back.

Later that day, the authority showed reporters the book they said was at the center of the affair. The pages that were replaced were larger than those in the rest of the book, and the Prisons Authority concluded the whole matter was a fabrication by the Palestinian prisoners.

On Wednesday, Prisons Authority official Orit Stelser said the pictures and new charges were fabricated.

During the search on Tuesday morning, soldiers confiscated dozens of cellular phones, forbidden among the prisoners. Stelser said it was unlikely that there were many left behind to take such pictures.

"They have staged things like this in the past," she said. "This is staged." She noted the early, conflicting stories and said, "If there were really torn Qurans (Tuesday), they would have presented them then. There are no more books, period."

The pictures transmitted Wednesday showed Qurans with several pages torn in the middle. It was impossible to tell from the pictures themselves where they were taken or when.

registerthis
06-09-2005, 03:29 PM
I'm not saying whether it's true or not--we may never know for certain--only that allegations such as this are easy to make and difficult to disprove.

Jaycint
06-09-2005, 03:58 PM
I'll chime in with registerthis in that it will be hard to ever prove the truth behind the accusations, however I find it funny that this happens on the heels of the big uproar over the Quran treatment in Gitmo. Very interesting timing.

RedFanAlways1966
06-09-2005, 04:02 PM
The militant Islamic Jihad on Wednesday presented pictures of torn copies of the Islamic holy book, the Quran, claimed they were taken inside an Israeli prison and said soldiers were responsible for the desecration.

Aren't the accusers the same group who straps bombs to youngsters w/ fake promises? Aren't the accusers the same group who has these youngsters blow themselves up in the middle of an Israeli bus or marketplace in the hopes of killing as many Jews as possible?

Yep... I'd believe anything they'd say about Israel. NOT!

registerthis
06-09-2005, 04:39 PM
Aren't the accusers the same group who straps bombs to youngsters w/ fake promises? Aren't the accusers the same group who has these youngsters blow themselves up in the middle of an Israeli bus or marketplace in the hopes of killing as many Jews as possible?

Yep... I'd believe anything they'd say about Israel. NOT!
Israel has been responsible for committing atrocities against the Palestinians as well--no one's hands are clean in this conflict, unfortunately. Thus, I can't say whose side I believe in this, simply because they are both prone to propaganda. Like I said earlier, we may never know for certain.

RedFanAlways1966
06-09-2005, 04:44 PM
Israel has been responsible for committing atrocities against the Palestinians as well--no one's hands are clean in this conflict, unfortunately. Thus, I can't say whose side I believe in this, simply because they are both prone to propaganda. Like I said earlier, we may never know for certain.

Yep, you are right. I take it all with a grain of salt when these allegations come forth.

GAC
06-09-2005, 04:44 PM
I'm not saying whether it's true or not--we may never know for certain--only that allegations such as this are easy to make and difficult to disprove.

And difficult to prove also.

It's interesting that in many of the Muslim countries, other religions are basically prohibited. Look what the Taliban did in Afghanistan to those who practiced other religions, their religious artifacts and sites located there. Look at the butcher and enslavement of Christians in areas such as the Sudan by Muslims. People are terrorized and murdered in various Muslim countries for being of another faith.

During the Gulf War, Bibles sent to our military were confiscated by the Saudis. I wonder what they did with them?

Where's Salmon Ruskie now?

So even IF this story were true, it can't compare to what we've witnessed being done by the so-called "tolerance" of many Muslim nations.

registerthis
06-09-2005, 04:49 PM
And difficult to prove also. ;)
Well, yes...but the persons making the allegations don't need to "prove" their story, only cast doubt on the Israeli prison and government.

M2
06-09-2005, 06:41 PM
Are you kidding me?

If I were Israeli, I'd have Quran toilet paper. I'd tear out pages of the Quran to blow my nose and to start a fire. I'd have my kids play kick the Quran out in the yard.

Reds/Flyers Fan
06-09-2005, 06:53 PM
Are you kidding me?

If I were Israeli, I'd have Quran toilet paper. I'd tear out pages of the Quran to blow my nose and to start a fire. I'd have my kids play kick the Quran out in the yard.

:beerme:

I don't understand why we have to walk on eggshells regarding the quran. Oops, I didn't capitalize it -- "American disrespects Quran with insensitive post"

I could care less about the quran. Saudi Arabia shreds the Christian Bible and some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should be converted or killed. Yet I'm supposed to have sympathy for their holy book?

Jaycint
06-09-2005, 07:05 PM
:beerme:

I don't understand why we have to walk on eggshells regarding the quran. Oops, I didn't capitalize it -- "American disrespects Quran with insensitive post"

I could care less about the quran. Saudi Arabia shreds the Christian Bible and some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should be converted or killed. Yet I'm supposed to have sympathy for their holy book?

My early nomination for post of the year, even coming from a Flyer fan. ;)

Falls City Beer
06-09-2005, 07:12 PM
:beerme:

I don't understand why we have to walk on eggshells regarding the quran. Oops, I didn't capitalize it -- "American disrespects Quran with insensitive post"

I could care less about the quran. Saudi Arabia shreds the Christian Bible and some Muslims believe that non-Muslims should be converted or killed. Yet I'm supposed to have sympathy for their holy book?

Me, I'd take everyone's holy book away from them till they can play nice.

And while they're in "time out" I'd hand out science textbooks. And Voltaire.

westofyou
06-09-2005, 07:18 PM
Me, I'd take everyone's holy book away from them till they can play nice.

And while they're in "time out" I'd hand out science textbooks. And Voltaire.

And copies of the Soft Bulletin

M2
06-09-2005, 07:23 PM
Me, I'd take everyone's holy book away from them till they can play nice.

And while they're in "time out" I'd hand out science textbooks. And Voltaire.

Oh that would take all the Jihad out of things and what's the fun in that?

pedro
06-09-2005, 07:24 PM
And copies of the Soft Bulletin

Contrary to popular belief, "the spider bite song" is not about Allah.

Falls City Beer
06-09-2005, 07:36 PM
Oh that would take all the Jihad out of things and what's the fun in that?

I'll spot you a Voyage of the Beagle for three Veggie Tales episodes.

westofyou
06-09-2005, 07:43 PM
I'll spot you a Voyage of the Beagle for three Veggie Tales episodes.

http://weeklywire.com/ww/08-30-99/austin_screens_tveye.jpg

GAC
06-09-2005, 08:43 PM
Well, yes...but the persons making the allegations don't need to "prove" their story, only cast doubt on the Israeli prison and government.

And that is all they are trying to do. Give Israel credit for allowing them to even have a Koran in prison. I guarantee you that if you were in an Arab jail they wouldn't allow other religious material period.

GAC
06-09-2005, 08:56 PM
Israel has been responsible for committing atrocities against the Palestinians as well

Utilizing suicide bombers and terrorism? Setting off bombs in crowded markets and other areas trying to kill as many as possible? Show me where.

I am in no way saying Israel has clean hands in the many decades they have been fighting with various Arab/Muslim factions and nations. When you are basically at war for as long as they have been, then yes, you're gonna make mistakes and commit acts that are regrettable. But when you've got the Palestinians sending their kids out to throw stones and fight Israeli soldiers, then something dire is gonna result. And I think that is the result that these Palestinian groups/leadership want.

But from the get-go they have never been the aggressor in this conflict. They are fighting simply for their survival. A tiny democratic nation the size of a speck, surrounded completely by Arab/Muslim nations. I would love someone to explain how Israel is a threat to any Muslim nation? They aren't. But the day after they were established as a nation, who launched an attack?

Arab nations are upset at Israel over lands they have possessed. Question: How did Israel gain those lands? Because they were attacked and consequently captured them. That is the consequence/risk of war. And until these Arab/Muslim nations recognize Israel's right to exist, clamp down on these radical, extemist Islamic groups who preach the annihilation of Israel, and also begin to educate their public that Israel is not the "great Satan" they are told, then I would be cautious about ceding any land back to them due to it's strategic importance.

registerthis
06-09-2005, 11:45 PM
Utilizing suicide bombers and terrorism? Setting off bombs in crowded markets and other areas trying to kill as many as possible? Show me where.
Oh for God's sake, GAC, crawl out of your cave once in awhile and pay attention. I don't need give you my views on this, I'll let the facts speak for themselves.

Human Rights Watch (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/isrlpa10290.htm)

Human Rights Watch, Article Two (Home Demolitions) (http://hrw.org/campaigns/gaza/)

Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/web/web.nsf/pages/isr-index_2-eng)

Christian Science Monitor Article on the Jenin Massacre (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0417/p01s05-wome.html)

Article by Louis Beres, PhD in PoliSci at Purdue, on Ongoing Violence (http://www.israelinsider.com/views/authors/beres.htm)

UN Condemnation of Israel's Occupation of Palestine (http://www.un.org/news/Press/docs/2002/GA10015.doc.htm)

ReliefWeb Report on Israeli Human Rights Violations (http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/AllDocsByUNID/ca4f855d54799b6b85256d4a004aa650)

...and before you tag me as anti-Israel, I'd have been happy to provide you with just as many links documenting Palestinian atrocities committed against Israel, had that been the premise of your statement. You say that you know that Israel "doesn't have clean hands", which is about as mild a way of addressing the situation as you can get. BOTH sides are equally at fault here, NEITHER side is even close to blameless. I'm not going to delve into a historical argument with you, as I stand by my original statement. Perhaps after reading the information I provided to you (practically all from neutral, balanced sources), you can come back here and explain to me how you believe Israel hasn't committed atrocities against the Palestinians.

Jaycint
06-10-2005, 12:48 AM
The article by Louis Beres is excellent. Anybody that doesn't have time to check out all of the links at least check out that one. It sums up my feelings about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict perfectly.

registerthis
06-10-2005, 12:56 AM
The article by Louis Beres is excellent. Anybody that doesn't have time to check out all of the links at least check out that one. It sums up my feelings about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict perfectly.
Thanks Jaycint, I agree, it's very well written...a great primer on the ongoing conflict.

EDIT: Although I do feel obligated to point out that I don't necessarily agree that *all* Palestinain deaths can be attributed to Palestinian terrorism, as Dr. Beres suggests. Though I agree with his basic assumption that Palestinian terrorists intentionally target non-combatants, while Israeli retaliation attempts, at least in part, to target military or terrorist locations, Israel can exceed the bounds of "reasonable response". I included the article in my list to show that, even from a "pro-Israeli" perspective there is an admittance that scores of Palestinians have been kille din the conflict as well.