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Royals Fan
06-16-2005, 09:36 AM
Today rumors from www.prosportsdaily.com

2 notes= LA Dodgers had a scout watching Harang last night and along with other pitchers.

Mets are looking for new 1st baseman with Dougie M not working out and Sean Casey was mentioned.

buckeyenut
06-16-2005, 10:20 AM
As much as it might be sacrilige to deal Harang, I think we ought to consider doing just that. He is having a nice year, is somewhat young, and IMO he is having a flukish year. I don't think he continues at this level for next 5 years. So I would consider dealing him to a contender for quality. Not a firesale deal, but a top quality deal.

Package Randa and Harang to LA for Chad Billingsley, Edwin Jackson, Joel Guzman and Chris Westervelt.

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 10:22 AM
As much as it might be sacrilige to deal Harang, I think we ought to consider doing just that. He is having a nice year, is somewhat young, and IMO he is having a flukish year. I don't think he continues at this level for next 5 years. So I would consider dealing him to a contender for quality. Not a firesale deal, but a top quality deal.

Package Randa and Harang to LA for Chad Billingsley, Edwin Jackson, Joel Guzman and Chris Westervelt.

If that was the return, I'd do it. Actually, I'm not a big fan of Edwin Jackson, I'd rather have Greg Miller. More of a gamble probably than Jackson, but Miller is LH and has more upside, IMO. If we didn't get at least that in return, Harang stays and I take Jackson and Westervelt for Randa.

buckeyenut
06-16-2005, 10:25 AM
From NYM, Gaby Hernandez and Yusmeiro Petit and Kaz Matsui for Sean Casey, Dangelo Jiminez and David Weathers.

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 10:39 AM
From NYM, Gaby Hernandez and Yusmeiro Petit and Kaz Matsui for Sean Casey, Dangelo Jiminez and David Weathers.

What are we going to do with Kaz Matsui, he's stinky.

rdiersin
06-16-2005, 11:30 AM
As much as it might be sacrilige to deal Harang, I think we ought to consider doing just that. He is having a nice year, is somewhat young, and IMO he is having a flukish year. I don't think he continues at this level for next 5 years. So I would consider dealing him to a contender for quality. Not a firesale deal, but a top quality deal.

Package Randa and Harang to LA for Chad Billingsley, Edwin Jackson, Joel Guzman and Chris Westervelt.

Chad Billingsley, Joel Guzman: I would take that deal in a second. Only one problem. Nobody in their right mind would make that deal. First of all, Randa's not the long term solution that Guzman is. Second Guzman is one the best hitting prospects in the minors, and Billingsly isn't too bad as pitching prospect either. I would jump at a deal that gave either of those for Randa and Harang, but it won't happen.

KronoRed
06-16-2005, 11:34 AM
What are we going to do with Kaz Matsui, he's stinky.
Add him to the stinky pile ;)

I like that Dodger trade idea, but I don't think they would give us that much for Harang and Randa, maybe toss in Kearns and it starts to work.

markymark69
06-16-2005, 12:04 PM
At this point I think it would be a mistake to trade Harang. Even though he has lost his three games, he hasn't had a lot of support. He made only one mistake against the Orioles and was victimized by Wily Mo last night (how was that not an error?) He has been the most consistent starter and this point and we can't trade pitchers like that, IMO. Casey I would trade. He's a nice guy and a decent player, but if we can get something for him we need to it.

CTA513
06-16-2005, 12:34 PM
I wouldnt be surprised if the Reds traded there best pitcher for prospects. :/
but Im not to sure about the ones you mention...

Edwin Jackson: 8.65 ERA, 55 IP, 76 Hits, 13 HR, 37 BB, 33 Ks
Hes given up 21 more hits than innings pitch and 4 more walks than strikeouts.... and he has given up 13 homeruns.

Billingsley: 4.12 ERA, 67.2IP, 62 Hits, 7 HR, 23 BB, 77 Ks

Joel Guzman: 228 At Bats, .285 AVG, 65 Hits, 11 HR, 44 RBI, 30 BB 75 Ks

Westervelt: I couldnt find any stats/information on him.

LexingtonRedsFan
06-16-2005, 12:37 PM
I wouldnt be surprised if the Reds traded there best pitcher for prospects. :/
but Im not to sure about the ones you mention...

Edwin Jackson: 8.65 ERA, 55 IP, 76 Hits, 13 HR, 37 BB, 33 Ks
Hes given up 21 more hits than innings pitch and 4 more walks than strikeouts.... and he has given up 13 homeruns.

Billingsley: 4.12 ERA, 67.2IP, 62 Hits, 7 HR, 23 BB, 77 Ks

Joel Guzman: 228 At Bats, .285 AVG, 65 Hits, 11 HR, 44 RBI, 30 BB 75 Ks

Westervelt: I couldnt find any stats/information on him.

I read somewhere this morning that the Dodgers dropped Jackson down to AA...

CTA513
06-16-2005, 12:38 PM
I read somewhere this morning that the Dodgers dropped Jackson down to AA...

If he was with the Reds he would have been promoted to the majors.

:devil:

buckeyenut
06-16-2005, 12:57 PM
I think that if you are going to deal Harang, you have to get a whole bunch in return, since he is showing he can be at minimum a #3 and maybe a #2 longterm and he is cheap and pitching is at a premium right now. Hence Guzman and Billingsley.

As far as Matsui goes, I think he is far better than he is playing and so I would take him, put him in the lineup every day at 2B and forget about him. I am grabbing him more to offset the salary for NYM and because he is at a trade value low right now but IMO is bound to turn it around in the second half. And Casey fits a need nicely for them. Plus, getting Matsui gives us more options to deal an OFer because we can play Freel out there if we have to.

rdiersin
06-16-2005, 01:15 PM
I think that if you are going to deal Harang, you have to get a whole bunch in return, since he is showing he can be at minimum a #3 and maybe a #2 longterm and he is cheap and pitching is at a premium right now. Hence Guzman and Billingsley.

As far as Matsui goes, I think he is far better than he is playing and so I would take him, put him in the lineup every day at 2B and forget about him. I am grabbing him more to offset the salary for NYM and because he is at a trade value low right now but IMO is bound to turn it around in the second half. And Casey fits a need nicely for them. Plus, getting Matsui gives us more options to deal an OFer because we can play Freel out there if we have to.


But Guzman and Billingsley are two of the top prospects in the game. There is no reason the Dodgers would trade these two for someone who is as you say a #3 starter, maybe a #2 in time. The problem is his track record doesn't say that he is a #3 starter. It says he is a 4 or 5. I hope he keeps this up, and his increase in K's is very encouraging, but I am sorry I have my doubts. And if I a lowly fan have doubts, there is no way DePo would trade two of his best prospect for Harang. But that's just MO. BTW, here are Guzman's and Billingsley's stats.


Joel Guzman
Age Lvl AB AVG OBP SLG OPS SEC
17 Rk 151 0.252 0.331 0.391 0.722 0.272
17 Rk 33 0.212 0.316 0.273 0.589 0.242
18 A 217 0.235 0.263 0.406 0.669 0.212
18 A 240 0.246 0.279 0.371 0.650 0.154
19 A 329 0.307 0.349 0.550 0.899 0.316
19 AA 182 0.280 0.325 0.522 0.847 0.308
20 AA 228 0.285 0.365 0.531 0.896 0.382

Chad Billingsley
Age Lvl IP ERA K/9 BB/9 K/BB
19 Rk 54.0 2.83 10.33 2.50 4.13
20 A 92.0 2.35 10.86 4.79 2.27
20 AA 42.3 2.98 9.99 4.68 2.14
20 AA 67.7 4.12 10.24 3.06 3.35
Guzman is a going to be a stud, no better way to put it. Billingsley has great K numbers, and I would bet he will get his ERA in the low 3's or 2's if he stays in AA the rest of the year.

timmario66
06-16-2005, 01:15 PM
This from Gammons chat on ESPN.com


Carl, (LA)
Read today in the latimes the Dodgers could possibly land Aaron Harang of the Reds. Would the Reds really trade statistically thier best pitcher and what would the Dodgers have to give up?

PETER GAMMONS
I watched Harang pitch last night at Fenway, and he IS their best pitcher. But, Cincy needs to get younger and get some power arms. It wouldn't surprise me if the Dodgers traded Edwin Jackson who has been a major dissapointment the last two years in AAA.


He must read Redszone too. :D

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 01:22 PM
This from Gammons chat on ESPN.com


Carl, (LA)
Read today in the latimes the Dodgers could possibly land Aaron Harang of the Reds. Would the Reds really trade statistically thier best pitcher and what would the Dodgers have to give up?

PETER GAMMONS
I watched Harang pitch last night at Fenway, and he IS their best pitcher. But, Cincy needs to get younger and get some power arms. It wouldn't surprise me if the Dodgers traded Edwin Jackson who has been a major dissapointment the last two years in AAA.


He must read Redszone too. :D


If we only got Edwin Jackson back in a trade for Aaron Harang, I would kick someone in the "soft parts". Stupid.

zombie-a-go-go
06-16-2005, 01:25 PM
Luckily, this FO is too frozen, I mean like Antartic frozen, to pull the trigger on a Harang deal.

If Aaron gets traded I might start throwing things and kicking puppies.

alexad
06-16-2005, 01:37 PM
The Reds need pitching, so why would you trade your best pitcher for some guys who might produce.

I think that is working our way backwards. IF you want pitching, you do not trade pitching to get it.

This organization has no big name pitching prospects even close for the next three years.

To get pitching that will help this club, we will have to give up hitting talent.

To trade Harang would be one of the dumbest things to do right now.

traderumor
06-16-2005, 01:51 PM
The Reds need pitching, so why would you trade your best pitcher for some guys who might produce.

I think that is working our way backwards. IF you want pitching, you do not trade pitching to get it.

This organization has no big name pitching prospects even close for the next three years.

To get pitching that will help this club, we will have to give up hitting talent.

To trade Harang would be one of the dumbest things to do right now.

Those same arguments were made last year regarding Paul Wilson. What did that get us? I think dangling a Harang, who is only our best pitcher by default, even with his vast improvement, makes sense if you bring back at least two top tier prospects. That is where the ability to look prospectively at what you think Harang will do over the next 3-5 years becomes the make or break for a GM. I like Harang, but I do think that if someone wants to overpay for less than half a season of above average pitching, let them overpay because I do not think he is a long term solution and could go the way of Paul Wilson anytime.

OnBaseMachine
06-16-2005, 01:54 PM
I would trade Harang if they can land couple of big prospects. This team need all the talent it can get. I'm not saying I would trade him for anything, but if a team comes a knockin' with a great offer on the table..I go for it.

Potential destinations and trade possibilities

Texas Rangers-Ask for two of the three.
2b, Ian Kinsler (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ian%20Kinsler&pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=435079)
lhp, John Danks (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=John%20Danks&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=433579)
rhp, Thomas Diamond (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Thomas%20Diamond&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=435080)

Los Angeles Dodgers-Throw Randa in if you have to.
rhp, Chad Billingsley (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Chad%20Billingsley&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=451532)
c, Russell Martin (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Russell%20Martin&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=431145)
rhp, Justin Orenduff (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Justin%20Orenduff&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=449154)

Boston RedSox
rhp, John Papelbon (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jonathan%20Papelbon&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=449097)
c, Kelly Shoppach (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Kelly%20Shoppach&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=431159)
rhp, Anibal Sanchez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Anibal%20Sanchez&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=434671)

Heath
06-16-2005, 01:54 PM
I'm going to take the other stance..I think Harang offers more to the Reds. I think for last couple of years his confidence was way down. He'll develop into a solid starter in Cincinnati where right now the honest truth is that he's not being pressured. When the Reds start winning,(Notice I didn't say IF) Harang will be a major part of the equation since he will have the time to develop.

I'm not sold on Edwin Jackson. I've got a feeling that he will be one heck of an AAAA player.

I hope in any trade whether it is Casey or Randa, etc that there might be a major league ready catcher involved.

zombie-a-go-go
06-16-2005, 01:54 PM
What makes you think Harang is having a flukey season?

Not calling anyone out, but I haven't seen where his mechanics look particularly bad, and he's got a power pitcher's frame, not to mention that he can locate his pitches pretty well.

Whereas everyone pretty much knew that Wilson was smoke-and-mirrors (and yes, I was one of the folks who advocated keeping him).

SplitFinger
06-16-2005, 02:03 PM
Remember when we got Harang for Guillen when we were selling off the team to get younger

Now we want to trade Harang to get younger!!!:bang:

:lindner: You know you SUCK at rebuilding when this happens!!!! :obrien:

Jesus Freak
06-16-2005, 02:03 PM
What kind of deal do you think you could get for Harang if you packaged Dunn with him? How about to Texas for Mark Teixera and Chris Young (or Diamond or Danks)?

zombie-a-go-go
06-16-2005, 02:09 PM
Now we want to trade Harang to get younger!!!:bang:


I'm tellin ya, I'll kick puppies.

And I like puppies.

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 02:10 PM
I would trade Harang if they can land couple of big prospects. This team need all the talent it can get. I'm not saying I would trade him for anything, but if a team comes a knockin' with a great offer on the table..I go for it.

Potential destinations and trade possibilities

Texas Rangers-Ask for two of the three.
2b, Ian Kinsler (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Ian%20Kinsler&pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=435079)
lhp, John Danks (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=John%20Danks&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=433579)
rhp, Thomas Diamond (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Thomas%20Diamond&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=435080)

Los Angeles Dodgers-Throw Randa in if you have to.
rhp, Chad Billingsley (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Chad%20Billingsley&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=451532)
c, Russell Martin (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Russell%20Martin&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=431145)
rhp, Justin Orenduff (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Justin%20Orenduff&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=449154)

Boston RedSox
rhp, John Papelbon (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Jonathan%20Papelbon&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=449097)
c, Kelly Shoppach (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Kelly%20Shoppach&pos=C&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=431159)
rhp, Anibal Sanchez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Anibal%20Sanchez&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=434671)

I like the way you think, OBM.

Jesus Freak
06-16-2005, 02:18 PM
Maybe we should look at expanding the Texas deal I proposed above.

Reds trade Adam Dunn, Aaron Harang, & Edwin Encarnacion
Rangers trade Mark Texeria, Chris Young, and one of either Diamond or Danks

Texeira would play third for the Reds (he played third for Georgia Tech), Young would replace Harang in the rotation, and Diamond or Danks would be assigned to the minors.

If they would rather switch Homer Bailey for Encarnacion (since they have Blalock) I would still do it.

timmario66
06-16-2005, 02:19 PM
There was also this gem to make everyone upset too:

PETER GAMMONS
I think the Phillies will be in the race all the way. Their first need is to replace Randy Wolf, but I thinnk they'l wait to see if Gavin Floyd can get his delivery worked out in Scranton. The next need is a legit lead-off hitter, preferably, a CFer. Their third need is a couple of bench players -- one player who would be perfect would be Ryan Friel with the Reds.


Nice spelling/typing Peter. :explode:

Someone from San Diego also asked about Milton coming to the Padres. Peter said something like that would be a good idea considering he hit 90 on the radar gun for the 1st time this year last start in Boston.

:jump: :pray: :party: :thumbup:

Obie get on the phone to San Diego stat!!!

Reds Fanatic
06-16-2005, 02:22 PM
Got this from the LA Times. Harang is one of 5 starters the Dodgers are scouting now for a possible trade.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodrep16jun16,1,3944810.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true


DePodesta said the Dodgers' six major league scouts were watching potential acquisitions Wednesday. Potential targets included Cincinnati's Aaron Harang, Colorado's Joe Kennedy, Toronto's Ted Lilly, Detroit's Mike Maroth and Pittsburgh's Mark Redman.

"We continue to have conversations every day, but I certainly wouldn't say anything is imminent," DePodesta said.

OnBaseMachine
06-16-2005, 02:24 PM
Maybe we should look at expanding the Texas deal I proposed above.

Reds trade Adam Dunn, Aaron Harang, & Edwin Encarnacion
Rangers trade Mark Texeria, Chris Young, and one of either Diamond or Danks

Texeira would play third for the Reds (he played third for Georgia Tech), Young would replace Harang in the rotation, and Diamond or Danks would be assigned to the minors.

If they would rather switch Homer Bailey for Encarnacion (since they have Blalock) I would still do it.

What's the point of this deal?

I am a huge fan of Teixeira, but Dunn is better than Teixeira. Harang is similar to Young, and you want to trade our only 3B prospect for a pitching prospect, albeit a good one. I don't really see how this trade improves the Reds.

rdiersin
06-16-2005, 02:28 PM
What makes you think Harang is having a flukey season?

Not calling anyone out, but I haven't seen where his mechanics look particularly bad, and he's got a power pitcher's frame, not to mention that he can locate his pitches pretty well.

Whereas everyone pretty much knew that Wilson was smoke-and-mirrors (and yes, I was one of the folks who advocated keeping him).

I am not sure if he is having a flukey season. By the same token, I am not sure we will see this same Harang the rest of the season or later seasons. It seems to me their is an equally likely chance that we could have either a Carpenter, who didn't bloom until late, or a Jimmy Haynes. More than likely though we get a Harang that is what he is, a low 4 ERA pitcher with a good K/BB and with 7 K/9. If I can turn that type of pitcher for players like Billingsley, Martin, Ohrenduff, you do it. Because one of those players has start potential and isn't that far, another may have star potential is in high A, and one could be a very servicable backstop.


Aaron Harang

Year Team Age Lvl IP ERA K/9 K/BB
1999 Pulaski 21 Rk 78.3 2.30 10.00 5.12
2000 Charlotte 22 A 157.0 3.32 7.80 2.72
2001 Midland 23 AA 150.0 4.14 6.72 3.03
2002 Midland 24 AA 16.7 1.08 11.34 3.00
2002 Sacramento 24 AAA 38.7 3.26 9.08 4.33
2002 Oakland Athletics 24 MLB 78.3 4.83 7.35 1.42
2003 Sacramento 25 AAA 69.7 2.71 7.75 3.53
2003 Louisville 25 AAA 3.0 15.00 12.00 2.00
2003 Oakland Athletics 25 MLB 30.3 5.34 4.75 1.78
2003 Cincinnati Reds 25 MLB 46.0 5.28 5.09 2.60
2004 Louisville 26 AAA 3.0 12.00 9.00 1.00
2004 Cincinnati Reds 26 MLB 161.0 4.86 6.99 2.36
2004 Cincinnati Reds 27 MLB 84.0 3.86 8.68 3.12

Puffy
06-16-2005, 02:32 PM
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dodrep16jun16,1,3944810.story?coll=la-headlines-sports&ctrack=1&cset=true

The last thing I want is DePodesta dealing with O'Brien. Talk about being overmatched......

traderumor
06-16-2005, 02:32 PM
There was also this gem to make everyone upset too:

PETER GAMMONS
I think the Phillies will be in the race all the way. Their first need is to replace Randy Wolf, but I thinnk they'l wait to see if Gavin Floyd can get his delivery worked out in Scranton. The next need is a legit lead-off hitter, preferably, a CFer. Their third need is a couple of bench players -- one player who would be perfect would be Ryan Friel with the Reds.


Nice spelling/typing Peter. :explode:

Someone from San Diego also asked about Milton coming to the Padres. Peter said something like that would be a good idea considering he hit 90 on the radar gun for the 1st time this year last start in Boston.

:jump: :pray: :party: :thumbup:

Obie get on the phone to San Diego stat!!!Milton might have a prayer in San Diego. Going there is about like going to pitch in the Astrodome from a pitcher's perspective. I'd pay half of the contract just to loosen the noose around my neck if I'm OB.

traderumor
06-16-2005, 02:33 PM
The last thing I want is DePodesta dealing with O'Brien. Talk about being overmatched......Funny thing is, Dodgers' fans are about as enamored with their GM as we are with ours.

SplitFinger
06-16-2005, 02:34 PM
Maybe we should look at expanding the Texas deal I proposed above.

Reds trade Adam Dunn, Aaron Harang, & Edwin Encarnacion
Rangers trade Mark Texeria, Chris Young, and one of either Diamond or Danks

Texeira would play third for the Reds (he played third for Georgia Tech), Young would replace Harang in the rotation, and Diamond or Danks would be assigned to the minors.

If they would rather switch Homer Bailey for Encarnacion (since they have Blalock) I would still do it. If we are trading for the future we shouldnt trade away OUR future.

*I would rather have Texeria than Dunn though, but maybe thats just me

buckeyenut
06-16-2005, 02:44 PM
But Guzman and Billingsley are two of the top prospects in the game. There is no reason the Dodgers would trade these two for someone who is as you say a #3 starter, maybe a #2 in time. The problem is his track record doesn't say that he is a #3 starter. It says he is a 4 or 5. I hope he keeps this up, and his increase in K's is very encouraging, but I am sorry I have my doubts. And if I a lowly fan have doubts, there is no way DePo would trade two of his best prospect for Harang. But that's just MO.

Guzman is a going to be a stud, no better way to put it. Billingsley has great K numbers, and I would bet he will get his ERA in the low 3's or 2's if he stays in AA the rest of the year.

I agree with that. That is why I think it should take those guys. Why would LA do that? Because they have legit playoff hopes and Randa and Harang fill their two biggest holes with two above average ML starters, one of which will slot very nicely behind Brad Penny long term for them.

Why would I as a Red trade Harang? Only because his value is as high as it has ever been right now and because I need more help than just Harang. That and because I am asking for a minimum of two high quality prospects to deal him, not just a couple of schleps.

KronoRed
06-16-2005, 03:21 PM
Funny thing is, Dodgers' fans are about as enamored with their GM as we are with ours.
They wanna trade? really..no problem :D

Stewie
06-16-2005, 03:38 PM
I saw this from a BP article by Joe Sheehan talking about which teams may be sellers, and what they have to sell (sorry if it was posted elsewhere):


Reds: Someone should let the Reds know they had a series in Boston this week. I'm not usually one for judging effort by watching on television, but if you were going to argue that a team had given up, those three games were pretty good evidence for the prosecution. Maybe the regular chairs go next.

What's odd is that for such a bad team, the Reds have some players to trade. They've destroyed Austin Kearns' value in favor of Ryan Freel--who admittedly has been very good the last two years--so there's an opportunity for a team to steal a pretty good right fielder for the stretch drive. Keep in mind that the Reds have had a glut of outfielders/first baseman for a while now, and they haven't been able to make a deal in that time. Finally, Joe Randa has no business finishing the year in Cincinnati, and he could improve a number of third-base situations around the league. His fan-favorite status may impair Dan O'Brien's judgment, however

My question is:

Joe Randa is a fan favorite? Why?

traderumor
06-16-2005, 03:40 PM
They wanna trade? really..no problem :D

I think the Dodgers' fans have just as legit reasons to complain. From the results perspective, he has done as little to instill confidence in the fan base than O'Brien has. He may have better skills and a better plan overall, but the results are mixed, at best, so far.

KronoRed
06-16-2005, 03:42 PM
Joe Randa is a fan favorite? Why?
First I've heard of it..I suppose it's that whole "workman like" thing he and Casey do well, but I think he's more a fav of the FO then the fans.

Chip R
06-16-2005, 03:57 PM
Someone from San Diego also asked about Milton coming to the Padres. Peter said something like that would be a good idea considering he hit 90 on the radar gun for the 1st time this year last start in Boston.
That isn't true because I saw him hit 92 several times on the gun on his ill-fated start against PIT.

Hooligan
06-16-2005, 03:59 PM
If the Reds were to trade Harang they better get the mother load in return. I'm not saying Harang is a #1 or a Cy Young winner, but I think the fans would have poop hemorrhage if they traded him. He's been one of the very few shinning lights this season.

Jesus Freak
06-16-2005, 03:59 PM
deleted

forfreelin04
06-16-2005, 04:05 PM
I think everyone is missing the point. You trade players that you have abundance of for types of players you have little of. Aaron Harang, next to the only, bright spot on this pitching roster. He's young, improving every year, and is becoming a power pitcher. Don't trade him!!! Granted he may never be a 1# but he will never be less than a 3# from now on IMO. Don't trade proven pitching for unproven pitching!! Furthermore, the Reds have a ton of power guys. Too many power guys. We have managed to score a ton of RUNS this season thanks to these big boppers, but we still have no PITCHING. Trade two or three of them. I consider the power guys, Pena, Dunn, Kearns, Griffey for proven pitching or unproven pitching depending on the team and the player being traded.

Redmachine2003
06-16-2005, 04:10 PM
I guess if your going to rebuild then rebuild the Reds seem to just go half the way all the time. I think that is why it has went form a 5 year plan 7 years ago to still trying to decide what the true plan really is. Take the Bengals and the Marvin plan he has pretty much gotten rid of all the players that was there before him and seems to be turning the whole attitude of the team around. The pre-Marvin team had what seemed to be a lazy self centered losing attitude with players that had talent but didn't want to work at all the little things to make then a better player or the team a better team. The new Marvin team Seems to be hungry to improve and give their all to get it done. The Reds may want to clean house too so that the current attitude doesn't infect any of the new players the Reds bring in. The Reds don't have any in your face type of leadership from the Vets. and every one is just happy to be out with their team mates after every loss. Jr is too laid back to be a Mentor and Casey is just to darn nice. There is no one on that pitching staff to really mentor the younger pitchers not even Gully or Miley. So Just Clean house and let the change begin.

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 04:16 PM
I think everyone is missing the point. You trade players that you have abundance of for types of players you have little of.

I don't think I'm missing the point. Aaron Harang is a good #3 pitcher, and I agree he will probably remain a steady starter for a few more years. The problem is, the Reds will not be competitive next year, and most likely the year after. So what good is it for the Reds to have Aaron Harang on their team? Why not trade him (while his value is really high) and pick up TWO potential #2/#3 starters that will be ready in 2-3 years when the Reds are ready to compete (I know this can be argued, but trust me, it will be AT LEAST 2 years before we're competitive)? Why would you keep him? I suppose his value could go higher, but it could also drop...I cash in now while I have the chance. Not too many starters available at the deadline this year..not that DanO knows anything about this, but if he were smart, he could dictate the market.

forfreelin04
06-16-2005, 04:17 PM
Amen!!! I just hope they realize this before the Reds become the Bengals of the 90's! But with DanO and Uncle Carl, it looks oh so possible! :(

forfreelin04
06-16-2005, 04:27 PM
I don't think I'm missing the point. Aaron Harang is a good #3 pitcher, and I agree he will probably remain a steady starter for a few more years. The problem is, the Reds will not be competitive next year, and most likely the year after. So what good is it for the Reds to have Aaron Harang on their team? Why not trade him (while his value is really high) and pick up TWO potential #2/#3 starters that will be ready in 2-3 years when the Reds are ready to compete (I know this can be argued, but trust me, it will be AT LEAST 2 years before we're competitive)? Why would you keep him? I suppose his value could go higher, but it could also drop...I cash in now while I have the chance. Not too many starters available at the deadline this year..not that DanO knows anything about this, but if he were smart, he could dictate the market.

I understand where your coming from here Red Leader. If we are going to rebuild for two to three years, than we need to be completely serious about it. However, pitching is a prized jewel these days. Look around the league, almost everyone has two to three good starters, cept for probably the bottom feeders like us (TB and Col) Everyone else is not going to give up pitching prospects. Espcially, so called studs like Chad Billingsley. Not gonna happen. We have Harang. He's relatively young. He will only improve. I would like to see some stats to see how far he is up on strikeouts this year in compared to this time last year?!? Why not keep him around, continue to see him get better and let him mentor pitching prospects that are traded to us for our big power guys. Harang can only get better barring any arm injuries. Adam Dunn will never get any better. He will be a great home run hitter all his career but he has already. He has proven he will hit over 40 HR consistently. He is a daunting figure many pitchers are intimidated to pitch too with RISP. He has the most value and we have home run hitters already, ie Wily Mo and Griffey. Not to mention even Edwin coming up from AAA soon hits alot of long balls.

redsandrails
06-16-2005, 04:28 PM
Harang is the closest thing to an ace that we'd had in awhile. He's doing well KEEP HIM. HE'S CHEAP. Think about some of the previous pitchers they've brought in to try to solve our pitching woes-

Dempster
Wilson
Milton
Haynes

Only guys who have done as well as Harang in the past 6 or 7 years are Neagle and Dessens and they've done comparably.

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 04:34 PM
I understand where your coming from here Red Leader. If we are going to rebuild for two to three years, than we need to be completely serious about it. However, pitching is a prized jewel these days. Look around the league, almost everyone has two to three good starters, cept for probably the bottom feeders like us (TB and Col) Everyone else is not going to give up pitching prospects. Espcially, so called studs like Chad Billingsley. Not gonna happen.

The Mets dealt Kazmir. The A's have dealt Jeremy Bonderman, and the player we're talking about, Harang, among others in deadline deals.

If the Reds would make Aaron Harang available, he would immediately shoot to the top of the list of pitchers available. Meaning at that point, the Reds basically dictate what they want in return for him. Some stupid team will give in and give us a real good return for him. That's the way it should work. With DanO in charge, I'd probably side with you and say keep Harang because DanO will sell short of what we need. He'd end up sending Harang to the Dodgers for Edwin Jackson and Olmedo Saenz or something like that.

redsandrails
06-16-2005, 04:38 PM
I wouldn't mind some of the Mets minor leaguers for Casey. I watch their single A affiliate sometimes and they have some great young guys- Mike Carp, Grant Psomas, Jose Sanchez. I wouldn't mind some of those guys at all.

Hooligan
06-16-2005, 04:52 PM
I would want AAA or AA prospects regardless of who is traded. I don't realistically see the fans waiting 4-5 years for a winner. The management of this team must produce in the next year or two.

wheels
06-16-2005, 04:53 PM
I don't want DanO trading away pitching.

Harang's an honest to goodness, meat and potatoes, middle of the rotation starter.

As good as he seems to us, he's pretty much two nothces above last year's Paul Wilson in the grand scheme of things. He's actually the type pitcher that DanO tried to convince us Paul Wilson was last season. He's the guy who'll take the ball every fifth day and give a club a reasonable shot at winning. He's healthy, he's effective, and he's cheap.

I'm usually all for trading guys away, but hold onto Harang, unless of course, DanO could throw himself into the deal for DePodesta in return.

Royals Fan
06-16-2005, 04:57 PM
Update on LA's Edwin Jackson- he was demote to Double A today to find his groove according to there GM. H e being passed by there otreh prospect like Billingsley and Miller. he might need a change of team to get him back on the right road.

wheels
06-16-2005, 05:05 PM
Update on LA's Edwin Jackson- he was demote to Double A today to find his groove according to there GM. H e being passed by there otreh prospect like Billingsley and Miller. he might need a change of team to get him back on the right road.

I'd say he needs more than a change of secenery to get back on track. The guy's stock is falling quicker than one of those dot com's you'd hear about on Super Bowl Sunday....Or something like that.

Good thing DanO wouldn't trade Dunn for him a couple of years ago.

flyer85
06-16-2005, 05:07 PM
Good thing DanO wouldn't trade Dunn for him a couple of years ago.A lot of people wanted that trade to be made. There is nothing more volatile, unpredictable and injury prone that young pitching.

RedsFan75
06-16-2005, 05:08 PM
he might need a change of team to get him back on the right road.

It's really hard to say this, but let's be honest... would a change to the Reds and their history with pitchers be the best thing to get him back on the right road?

For his sake you hope he's traded somewhere that they develop pitchers, lately, that's NOT the Reds.

wheels
06-16-2005, 05:38 PM
A lot of people wanted that trade to be made.

Not me, at I don't think I did. :confused:

TeamBoone
06-16-2005, 05:44 PM
As much as it might be sacrilige to deal Harang, I think we ought to consider doing just that. He is having a nice year, is somewhat young, and IMO he is having a flukish year. I don't think he continues at this level for next 5 years. So I would consider dealing him to a contender for quality. Not a firesale deal, but a top quality deal.

Package Randa and Harang to LA for Chad Billingsley, Edwin Jackson, Joel Guzman and Chris Westervelt.

Maybe you could embellish on why you think he's having a flukish year and don't think he can continue at this level for the next 5... because at this point in his career, I don't understand how you can possibly make that determination.

As you say, he's young. He's taken a giant step up this year. Why is there more reason to think he's a fluke then there is to think he's a promising young pitcher with a whole lot of upside?

Personally, I don't think anyone can truly answer that question at this point in time. Thus, shouldn't he be given some time to continue to develop... with the Reds? Do you really think they should rid themselves of a promising young pitcher based on conjecture? Especially when they do enough of that already.

For once, I hope they do it right and wait long enough to make an informed decision based on facts. Only hindsight will tell for sure, but trading him now is foolish in my opinion. They could easily be giving away a really promising future to another team just as easily as not. And for what? Another unknown who may not be as promising in the long run?

When pitching is a team's weakness, to me, you just don't take that chance based on an uneducated guess that his performance in 2005 may be a fluke.

TeamBoone
06-16-2005, 05:53 PM
I don't think I'm missing the point. Aaron Harang is a good #3 pitcher, and I agree he will probably remain a steady starter for a few more years. The problem is, the Reds will not be competitive next year, and most likely the year after. So what good is it for the Reds to have Aaron Harang on their team?

Hmmm, I agree with forfreelin. Harang just turned 27 in May... young for a pitcher. In five more years, he'll still only be 32.

How many good pitchers continue to be productive beyond that ? Quite a few actually.

Aaron Harang could be helping the Reds out for a long time if he continues to do well.

Marc D
06-16-2005, 05:55 PM
Harang is the one Reds pitcher who does not pitch to contact. He actually K's people. Somehow I fear this will influence Dan O's decision in some sick and twisted negative way. Couple this with his innate lack of intelligence and we will see a fleecing on par with selling Manhattan for some shiney beads.

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 05:55 PM
What if Harang is really good in 2006 and 2007? Sure, he'll make watching every fifth day bearable, but where does that get us as a whole? I'm not saying deal him no matter what, but if you can get a teams top 2 pitching prospects for him, and your scouts tell you they are the "real deal", then you should pull the trigger, IMO.

Can't have it both ways. There is no short cut to rebuilding and doing it right. Have to completely gut it and hope that all of your talent develops at once, hope everyone hits their "prime" in 3-4 years and is still relatively inexpensive so you can add other pieces if you need to. I think Harang is a good, young pitcher, but he's not so good that you keep him for 3-4 years as he starts costing real $$$$, instead of trading him for younger pitchers who's development curve is more in line with your timeline to compete.

Redmachine2003
06-16-2005, 05:58 PM
If you going to have a firesale sell while there value is High instead of just releasing them when their value is gone.

TeamBoone
06-16-2005, 06:00 PM
We have a farm league full of prospects. We have what appears to be a decent young pitcher with no where to go but up in Aaron Harang.

Keep him as a proven commodity over a couple more prospects that probably won't pan out or if they do, they get rid of them anyway, just like they did Mosely.

It's a vicious circle. Somewhere along the line you need to bite the bullet and hang on to the keepers. Otherewise, you never ever get beyond the prospects.

rdiersin
06-16-2005, 06:00 PM
Maybe you could embellish on why you think he's having a flukish year and don't think he can continue at this level for the next 5... because at this point in his career, I don't understand how you can possibly make that determination.

As you say, he's young. He's taken a giant step up this year. Why is there more reason to think he's a fluke rather than a promising young pitcher with a whole lot of upside?

Personally, I don't think anyone can truly answer that question at this point in time. Thus, shouldn't he be given some time to continue to develop... with the Reds? Do you really think they should rid themselves of a promising young pitcher based on conjecture? Especially when they do enough of that already.

For once, I hope they do it right and wait long enough to make an informed decision based on facts. Only hindsight will tell for sure, but trading him now is foolish in my opinion. They could easily be giving away a really promising future to another team just as easily as not. And for what? Another unknown who may not be as promising in the long run? When pitching is a team's weakness, to me, you just don't take that chance based on an uneducated guess that his performance in 2005 may be a fluke.


What makes you think that he is going to keep pitching this way? He's young? Not really he's already 27, not old, but not that young. The question is whether or not he is going to keep this up. I have given his stats previously, but lets look at his first 6 games. He has 6.44 K/9, in 36 IP. In his last 7 games he's got 10.4 K/9 in 47.2 IP. Obviously this isn't the best analysis because it is a small sample size, but it makes you wonder if this is some grand epiphany of his or a "fluke". I think he is a low 4's era, maybe high 3's type pitcher, and is very servicable. Nobody is advocating trading him for the sake of trading him, but if the right deal comes around, the Reds are crazy not to consider it.

klw
06-16-2005, 06:01 PM
Why would we trade Harang when we already have Bubba Nelson and Bong? :) :D

KronoRed
06-16-2005, 06:02 PM
Harang reminds me of Elmer Dessens, except he k's more batters and goes a bit longer in games, but he's not an ace, I hate the idea of trading one of the only arms we have, but if we can get a potential ACE or 2 for him we should, we aren't close, best we don't act like we are.

TeamBoone
06-16-2005, 06:04 PM
What makes you think that he is going to keep pitching this way? He's young? Not really he's already 27, not old, but not that young. The question is whether or not he is going to keep this up. I have given his stats previously, but lets look at his first 6 games. He has 6.44 K/9, in 36 IP. In his last 7 games he's got 10.4 K/9 in 47.2 IP. Obviously this isn't the best analysis because it is a small sample size, but it makes you wonder if this is some grand epiphany of his or a "fluke". I think he is a low 4's era, maybe high 3's type pitcher, and is very servicable. Nobody is advocating trading him for the sake of trading him, but if the right deal comes around, the Reds are crazy not to consider it.

Exactly! So lets not make a decsion based on wondering... let's find out, then make the decision.

It's like conjuring up a theory without the facts because before long the facts are being bent to support the theory. Instead, get the facts and then come up with a theory based on them.

Red Leader
06-16-2005, 06:08 PM
Harang reminds me of Elmer Dessens, except he k's more batters and goes a bit longer in games, but he's not an ace, I hate the idea of trading one of the only arms we have, but if we can get a potential ACE or 2 for him we should, we aren't close, best we don't act like we are.

Good post, Krono. I see him much the same way. I can totally see the Reds hanging onto Harang and going year by year the next couple years and then signing him to a LTC and him being here a long time, like the pitching version of Sean Casey. Problem is, I think his contract starts to outweigh his production much sooner, like in about 2-3 years. They'll basically give him his LTC based on the performance he gave them in the year to year contracts, instead of what they project him for in the future.

Why do the Reds always do that?

"Here's your reward for playing well in your 1 year contract years, we'll give you a 3 yr 23M contact." Even though everyone knows that player has already had his career year before year 1 of that LTC.


Drives me friggin' crazy. :laugh:

rdiersin
06-16-2005, 06:10 PM
Exactly! So lets not make a decsion based on wondering... let's find out, then make the decision.

Look at Harang's stats. I'm not making a decision based on wondering. I am looking at his past stats and current stats and making a decision that I am not going to get Wilsoned. I am not going to let one good start to the year cloud my judgement. If I get a great deal, I'm taking it, because he has not shown this kind of performance in the past. If he turns out well, fine, but I am going to make sure I get a couple prospects that will more than make up for, even if some of them don't pan out. That's how you make the deal. The Reds don't have to trade him. But if the right deal comes along, I'm not closing my mind to it.

traderumor
06-16-2005, 06:13 PM
What if Harang is really good in 2006 and 2007? Sure, he'll make watching every fifth day bearable, but where does that get us as a whole? I'm not saying deal him no matter what, but if you can get a teams top 2 pitching prospects for him, and your scouts tell you they are the "real deal", then you should pull the trigger, IMO.

Can't have it both ways. There is no short cut to rebuilding and doing it right. Have to completely gut it and hope that all of your talent develops at once, hope everyone hits their "prime" in 3-4 years and is still relatively inexpensive so you can add other pieces if you need to. I think Harang is a good, young pitcher, but he's not so good that you keep him for 3-4 years as he starts costing real $$$$, instead of trading him for younger pitchers who's development curve is more in line with your timeline to compete.Good post.

KronoRed
06-16-2005, 06:19 PM
Agreed RL, the Reds are in love with the idea of hometown players, Johnny Bench type stuff, sadly you rarely get to build around guys like that and with our payroll it sinks us right off the bat.

CTA513
06-16-2005, 06:25 PM
The Reds will trade Harang for some prospects, then those prospects will get hurt in the minors.


:mooner:

Matt700wlw
06-16-2005, 06:29 PM
An organization that needs pitching desperately, shouldn't trade a quality pitcher. He may not stay "ace" caliber for another 5 years, but most people agreed even going into this year, he'd be a solid 3, 4 or 5.

KronoRed
06-16-2005, 06:39 PM
The Reds will trade Harang for some prospects, then those prospects will get hurt in the minors.


:mooner:

Lets think positively people ;)

Gallen5862
06-16-2005, 07:02 PM
We should keep Harang as one of the young pitchers to build around.

wheels
06-16-2005, 07:26 PM
Good post, Krono. I see him much the same way. I can totally see the Reds hanging onto Harang and going year by year the next couple years and then signing him to a LTC and him being here a long time, like the pitching version of Sean Casey. Problem is, I think his contract starts to outweigh his production much sooner, like in about 2-3 years. They'll basically give him his LTC based on the performance he gave them in the year to year contracts, instead of what they project him for in the future.

Why do the Reds always do that?

"Here's your reward for playing well in your 1 year contract years, we'll give you a 3 yr 23M contact." Even though everyone knows that player has already had his career year before year 1 of that LTC.


Drives me friggin' crazy. :laugh:

I hope you know how much it pains me to disagree with you on this one. Seriously...It makes me doubt my own sanity, but here goes nothing...

I'm always one of the first ones to cry out "Trade 'em all!", but in this case, I'd stand pat. The one flaw that I see in your otherwise sound logic is that I think you're over estimating just how good Harang really is. He's a nice pitcher, solid and all of that, but he's not number one or number two quality. I'm fairly convinced that when the season's done, he'll be a notch above mediocre. Would that get a nice return in trade?

Sure it would, but someone mentioned Dessens....Bowden got Lopez for him. Lopez has been off the charts, but nobody, I mean NOBODY would have guessed he'd be OPSing around .900 less than three years later. In fact, people were miffed that they didn't get more for Elmer at the time.

I don't trust DanO to deal pitching away, I just don't.

I'm also of the mind that pitching is what they need, and they've got one, and a cheap, durable one at that. They should look into keeping him at least until he's a FA.

I just wish they wouldn't have spent all of that dough this past offseason.

They needed a SS, and one has emerged in house.

They needed a reliable, durable starter, and one has emerged in house.

Instead of elation, we're filled with dread because we're all afraid they won't have the money to keep them.

It's a real shame.

....And it ain't because they're cheap, it's because they're stupid.

TeamBoone
06-16-2005, 07:33 PM
Look at Harang's stats. I'm not making a decision based on wondering. I am looking at his past stats and current stats and making a decision that I am not going to get Wilsoned. I am not going to let one good start to the year cloud my judgement. If I get a great deal, I'm taking it, because he has not shown this kind of performance in the past. If he turns out well, fine, but I am going to make sure I get a couple prospects that will more than make up for, even if some of them don't pan out. That's how you make the deal. The Reds don't have to trade him. But if the right deal comes along, I'm not closing my mind to it.

Yes, you are considering his stats... and to me you're only making my point more valid. He's only this year come into his own. What's not to say he can't continue to improve? You won't know that until there are more stats to consider.

All I'm saying is to give him some time and not make a decision based on conjecture about his future when we don't know what lies there yet or on the notion that because he's doing well he's bound to go bad.

redsfanmia
06-16-2005, 08:19 PM
At this point maybe the Reds should trade Harang. If we can get something potentally better than why not? If Harang was 23 i would say keep him but he is going good now his value is the highest it has been to date. No one in this entire organization can be considered untradeable in my opinion.

jmcclain19
06-16-2005, 09:47 PM
At this point maybe the Reds should trade Harang. If we can get something potentally better than why not? If Harang was 23 i would say keep him but he is going good now his value is the highest it has been to date. No one in this entire organization can be considered untradeable in my opinion.

Whats the point of developing young pitching, if you turn around and send it away for an unknown quantity.

Right now, Harang's cheap and productive.

So's Claussen.

I'd say those two things are reason enough to keep them around.

Let's work on getting rid of the expensive and unproductive, something the Reds have plenty of.

CTA513
06-16-2005, 09:52 PM
I think the Reds should trade for kids in D ball or T-Ball... get them while there young(M. Jackson). ;)

redsfanmia
06-16-2005, 10:35 PM
Whats the point of developing young pitching, if you turn around and send it away for an unknown quantity.

Right now, Harang's cheap and productive.

So's Claussen.

I'd say those two things are reason enough to keep them around.

Let's work on getting rid of the expensive and unproductive, something the Reds have plenty of.
To get something of value you have to trade something of value. No one wants expensive and unproductive. Im not saying the Reds should trade Harang or Claussen but if the right deal came along then you have to move them. I think Harang is no better than a 3 starter, if we can move him for a potential 1 then I say do it, having Harang this season means a few more wins in season of 90+ loses. A number 1 could mean alot more in the future when/if we ever contend again.

New Fever
06-16-2005, 11:19 PM
Somebody said that Lopez was an unknown commodity, but he was a Top 10 prospect in all of baseball while in the Blue Jays system. People always expect players to come to the show and produce immediately, some players need a little more time.

RDriesen16
06-16-2005, 11:23 PM
Chad Billingsley, Joel Guzman: I would take that deal in a second. Only one problem. Nobody in their right mind would make that deal. First of all, Randa's not the long term solution that Guzman is. Second Guzman is one the best hitting prospects in the minors, and Billingsly isn't too bad as pitching prospect either. I would jump at a deal that gave either of those for Randa and Harang, but it won't happen.

guzman or laroche better be coming back. and you gotta figure la will part with one, more likely guzman. as randa can play till the one they keep is ready

M2
06-16-2005, 11:42 PM
Funny thing is, Dodgers' fans are about as enamored with their GM as we are with ours.

I didn't like DePo's most recent offseason, but last season he did have the Dodgers back in the playoffs after a long drought. The team's also above .500 even with a slew of pitching injuries. DePo hasn't wowed me, but I wouldn't put him and Dan O'Brien on the same planet in terms of GM performance. DePo inherited a shaky team and put it in the playoffs. Obie inherited a mess and has made it worse.

pedro
06-16-2005, 11:50 PM
I didn't like DePo's most recent offseason, but last season he did have the Dodgers back in the playoffs after a long drought. The team's also above .500 even with a slew of pitching injuries. DePo hasn't wowed me, but I wouldn't put him and Dan O'Brien on the same planet in terms of GM performance. DePo inherited a shaky team and put it in the playoffs. Obie inherited a mess and has made it worse.

You know, the really interesting thing to me is that his biggest questionable move (Lowe) has turned out OK so far. I wouldn't bet that Lowe will perform at this level thoughout the length of his contract and I think giving a 32 year old pitcher a 4 year contract is pretty reckless, but I can't knock him for it now.

Other than that, I still like the Lo Duca / Penny trade and he did manage to dump Green and steal Milton Bradley.

I think he's done a damn good job so far.

M2
06-16-2005, 11:54 PM
Harang's an honest to goodness, meat and potatoes, middle of the rotation starter.

That's my take too. He's on a 215 IP pace. He's also on a 200+ K pace. His current 3.86 ERA is probably the range you should expect for him. Reds fans should be thrilled with that if he delivers on it. No, it's not an ace, it's a horse and, IMO, it's every bit as valuable as an ace to a team like the Reds.

For those who are skeptical about him and expecting him to fall apart, I get that. You might be right. His current peripherals don't suggest a collapse is coming, like they did with Paul Wilson last season, but it could happen.

I'd be willing to trade him for a screamer of a deal, meaning two highly advanced pitching prospects that put me in drool mode. Not many teams have that. The Dodgers sure don't. Edwin Jackson's a turd and Paul DePodesta probably flails himself nightly over not trading that piece of overhyped nothing for a big bat (DanO said he'd have put Dunn on the table) when he had the chance.

M2
06-17-2005, 12:02 AM
You know, the really interesting thing to me is that his biggest questionable move (Lowe) has turned out OK so far. I wouldn't bet that Lowe will perform at this level thoughout the length of his contract and I think giving a 32 year old pitcher a 4 year contract is pretty reckless, but I can't knock him for it now.

Looks like the NL's catching up to Lowe.

April ERA - 2.04
May ERA - 4.14
June ERA - 5.49

His ERA's been on a steady climb since his 5/7 start against the Reds, where they figured out that his stuff can get drilled pretty good once you get used to it a bit.

pedro
06-17-2005, 12:07 AM
Looks like the NL's catching up to Lowe.

April ERA - 2.04
May ERA - 4.14
June ERA - 5.49

His ERA's been on a steady climb since his 5/7 start against the Reds, where they figured out that his stuff can get drilled pretty good once you get used to it a bit.

you're probably right, but they've certainly got more payflex than the Reds.

is Gagne signed past this year?

OnBaseMachine
06-17-2005, 12:09 AM
DePodesta is looking smart for letting Beltre walk and signing Drew instead.

Beltre-.244/.279/.361
Drew-.281/.400/.507

Beltre signed a 5 yr 64 mil contract with the M's. That's about as bad as the Milton deal.

2000 posts!

OnBaseMachine
06-17-2005, 12:15 AM
Lowe is just nasty on righties, lefties, on the other hand...

lefties-.319/.370/.450
righties-.208/.222/.329

Dodger Stadium-.263/.283/.387
On the road-.272/.329/.401

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=5801

Cyclone792
06-17-2005, 12:38 AM
I don't see much wrong with what DePodesta's done. Dumping Green, letting Beltre walk and getting rid of the overrated LoDuca are all points in his favor. Eliminate LoDuca's fluke great season a few years ago and he hasn't been what the media hypes him to be.

Meanwhile, Drew is very quietly putting together a strong season despite his miserable start, and Jeff Kent is putting up numbers right in line with his career norms. Not only that, DePodesta's also figured out a way to keep Milton Bradley from getting himself suspended every other month. Choi's probably been a disappointment for him, and the Lowe signing might come back to bite him, but losing Gagne is a massive blow and Perez has been out for awhile now too.

The more DePodesta is able to piece together the team how he sees fit, the more games they'll start winning, IMO. The anomaly Beltre was last season contributed to quite a few wins that were probably unexpected and now they've fallen back down a bit from that.

SplitFinger
06-17-2005, 01:03 AM
I remember Dodger fans being mad about getting older over the offseason.

Derek Lowe- 32 yrs.
Jeff Kent- 37 yrs.
Jose Valentin- 35 yrs.
Ricky Ledee- 31 yrs.

At the time (last off-season) everyone was questioning all his moves. Especially the Jeff Kent pick-up.

TheManWith3Legs
06-17-2005, 10:20 AM
Hey, not to change the subject, but someone mentioned SD being interested in Milton. Does anyone disagree that the Reds(while they're in the salary eating mood) should cut their losses and eat some salary and send Eric's ass to sunny Cali? An Eric trade is in my prayers every night :)

M2
06-17-2005, 11:58 AM
Hey, not to change the subject, but someone mentioned SD being interested in Milton. Does anyone disagree that the Reds(while they're in the salary eating mood) should cut their losses and eat some salary and send Eric's ass to sunny Cali? An Eric trade is in my prayers every night :)

Absolutely they should, but that would mean DanO would have to admit failure and Carl Lindner would have to understand the concept of sunk costs.

ochre
06-17-2005, 12:10 PM
... Carl Lindner would have to understand the concept of sunk costs.
That's when you lose a bannana boat in the Carribean right?

REDREAD
06-17-2005, 02:54 PM
We continue to have conversations every day, but I certainly wouldn't say anything is imminent," DePodesta said.


Proof that DePodesta is talking to DanO :laugh:

savafan
06-17-2005, 03:51 PM
is Gagne signed past this year?

Gagne could be out for 1-2 years according to PTI.

Is Harang arb. eligible after this year?

Redsland
06-17-2005, 04:07 PM
Is Harang arb. eligible after this year?
Last year was his first full year, and his partials probably won't give him super 2 status, so I'd guess he won't be arb-el until after 2006.