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BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 10:08 AM
ok....a couple years ago the Reds traded its most productive player at the time (Guillen) to make room for Griffey and its young, budding star outfielders. The emergence of Harang has certainly helped offset the loss of a bat like Guillen however, point remains.

Randa does things that this team badly needs. He provides solid if unexceptional defense. He uses the whole field. He makes George Grande giddy with his "professional" at bats. With Casey's power loss he and Lopez have best mix of avg. and power on team. He is also pretty much immune to extended slumps. He is steady.

Additionally, for anyone who hasn't seen Encarnacion play live....let me lay a little bit of a scary comparison on you, BRANDON LARSON. Hopefully not, but they both have that short, stocky build and from what I saw Encarnacion had a long stride, swoop swing that looked to be more of that dead pull hitter stuff we see every night with 80% of the current Reds players. Again, a little Brandon Larsony..........

Hopefully, what I saw was not representative of the full Encarnacion batting tools but he didn't tear up AA pitching the past couple years and is doing something less than having a field day with AAA this year (while putting up 18 errors).

If Randa wants to play a few more years and wants to stay in Cincy, with his game there is no reason he couldn't be solid for a few more years to come. It's one thing to move along a marginal/bubble guy to make room for a "prospect" but displacing a solid producer for anything but a surething is another thing.............

Red Leader
06-20-2005, 10:16 AM
:rolleyes:

I was scared to death that someone in the world would have this opinion.

This team should be rebuilding, and rebuilding around its younger and/or cheaper players. While Joe Randa doesn't make a mint, he can be replaced by a younger player with much more upside. Sure, there will be growing pains, but in the long run, its what's best for this team. Signing Joe Randa long term sets this team back further in the near future.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 10:17 AM
Choosing mediocrity, old mediocrity, I think your line of reasoning might just land you a job in DanO's front office, but be careful, you might only have a job for anywhere from a few days to a few weeks :evil: Randa is all the things you say, which is why I cash him in and consider that to be one thing that has been positive about the current season.

As for EE, he has been outstanding at every level. There is nothing he has to do, other than get those errors in check, to prove himself in the minors. He has done the opposite of your opinion with the numbers he has posted at yet another level up the chain.

rdiersin
06-20-2005, 10:18 AM
ok....a couple years ago the Reds traded its most productive player at the time (Guillen) to make room for Griffey and its young, budding star outfielders. The emergence of Harang has certainly helped offset the loss of a bat like Guillen however, point remains.

Randa does things that this team badly needs. He provides solid if unexceptional defense. He uses the whole field. He makes George Grande giddy with his "professional" at bats. With Casey's power loss he and Lopez have best mix of avg. and power on team. He is also pretty much immune to extended slumps. He is steady.

Additionally, for anyone who hasn't seen Encarnacion play live....let me lay a little bit of a scary comparison on you, BRANDON LARSON. Hopefully not, but they both have that short, stocky build and from what I saw Encarnacion had a long stride, swoop swing that looked to be more of that dead pull hitter stuff we see every night with 80% of the current Reds players. Again, a little Brandon Larsony..........

Hopefully, what I saw was not representative of the full Encarnacion batting tools but he didn't tear up AA pitching the past couple years and is doing something less than having a field day with AAA this year (while putting up 18 errors).

If Randa wants to play a few more years and want to stay in Cincy, with his game there is no reason he couldn't be solid for a few more years to come. It's one thing to move along a marginal/bubble guy to make room for a "prospect" but displacing a solid producer for anything but a surething is another thing.............


First of all, lets just forget about EE for arguments sake. Randa has a one year deal. Why would you NOT trade him. If he likes it here and the Reds like him so much, why wouldn't you trade him then resign him next year? I doubt any team will offer him arbitration, so you are probably not at risk to lose a draft pick. The reds are done this year. Hopefully you get some prospect back in the deal.

Then there is the whole EE part. He is going to be a good player. He is young and he will be cheap. The Larson comparisons are off, he's more comparable to Aaron Boone than Larson. And he is putting up similar numbers in AAA at a younger age (22 instead of 24).

traderumor
06-20-2005, 10:19 AM
Of course, we could call up Willy Joe Ronda up for a publicity stunt later in the year when only 12,000 are showing up a night and have a Ronda/Randa bobblehead night.

ochre
06-20-2005, 10:20 AM
and thus is the Joe Randa signing loathed.

Puffy
06-20-2005, 10:20 AM
Lets see - I never wanted Randa and now BF says we should keep him.

Your honor, I rest my case.

:evil:

rdiersin
06-20-2005, 10:20 AM
Of course, we could call up Willy Joe Ronda up for a publicity stunt later in the year when only 12,000 are showing up a night and have a Ronda/Randa bobblehead night.

Nice. I like a Willy Jo/Wily Mo bobblehead night better though.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 10:23 AM
Nice. I like a Willy Jo/Wily Mo bobblehead night better though.I was thinking it could be a siamese twin bobblehead :evil:

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:28 AM
Additionally, for anyone who hasn't seen Encarnacion play live....let me lay a little bit of a scary comparison on you, BRANDON LARSON. Hopefully not, but they both have that short, stocky build and from what I saw Encarnacion had a long stride, swoop swing that looked to be more of that dead pull hitter stuff we see every night with 80% of the current Reds players. Again, a little Brandon Larsony..........Once again drawing parallels that only exist in some other universive.

TRF
06-20-2005, 10:29 AM
sigh.

by all means, keep a 3B who is 35, will never have more value, and is blocking a younger, far cheapr player with a much higher ceiling. Wanna know what EE's ceiling is? IMO similar to FeLo's. Both have issues throwing the ball, both have exceptional range. Both can take a walk, and both have developing power, EE may have more than FeLo. The left side of the infield could be set for a decade.

Oh yeah, and Randa's value is so high right now, there are a host of teams waiting to be fleeced for him. I have a Mr. DePodesta on line two.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:29 AM
:rolleyes:
I was scared to death that someone in the world would have this opinion.
Joe's a stud. His age 35 season is going to be his breakout season and is only going to get better from here.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 10:31 AM
sigh.

by all means, keep a 3B who is 35, will never have more value, and is blocking a younger, far cheapr player with a much higher ceiling. Wanna know what EE's ceiling is? IMO similar to FeLo's. Both have issues throwing the ball, both have exceptional range. Both can take a walk, and both have developing power, EE may have more than FeLo. The left side of the infield could be set for a decade.

Oh yeah, and Randa's value is so high right now, there are a host of teams waiting to be fleeced for him. I have a Mr. DePodesta on line two.

To which every call DanO gets about him, he asks "is this an appropriate time to chuckle?"

Roy Tucker
06-20-2005, 10:31 AM
Randa has been a solid vet for this team. A stabilizing influence, solid defense, and more offense than what I thought they were going to get from him. A reliable player.

If this season hadn't gone down the toilet so badly, Randa would have proven to be a valuable player down the stretch. Plus has given EE time to play at AAA without pressure to bring him up. One of the few good off-season moves DanO made.

But the guy is 35 yrs. old and has a 1 year contract. Who's to say he'd *want* to come back to the Reds next year? I can see a multiple teams bidding on his services.

His value is at it's pinnacle now. The Reds would be foolish to not use him as a trading chip at trade deadline.

He will be one of those players that I'll think well of if he appears in GABP in an opponents uniform and will get applause from Roy. Class guy.

BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 10:32 AM
Had a feeling that post would go over about like that.

Please someone tell me what is so impressive about these minor league numbers (Encarnacion):
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/edwin_encarnacion.shtml

The 30+ doubles were nice but he is basically putting up Joe Randa type numbers but in the minors. I don't disagree that he's a good prospect and has a chance to be solid major leaguer. But don't just toss out an already "solid" major leaguer for a guy who looks as though he might only project to "solid" as opposed to all star level.

Additionally, if the Reds adding an everyday "prospect" to a trade is what it would take to get a legitimate PITCHING prospect or two in return in one of the deals which will no doubt be forthcoming I'd say do it. This team is in such bad need of pitching and again, if Randa wants to stay in Cincy he does things this feast/famine team badly needs.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:37 AM
What is impressive about EE is that he is
1) Underage for where he has played at every step of the way(one of the main predictors for future success)
2) He has shown consistent improvement in plate discipline as he has moved up the ladder.
3) 2005 at age 22 in AAA he has shown a large improvement. BB rate over 10% and SLG% in over .500

BTW, he was putting up better AAA numbers than the Braves super-prospect Andy Marte.

ochre
06-20-2005, 10:38 AM
Had a feeling that post would go over about like that.

Please someone tell me what is so impressive about these minor league numbers (Encarnacion):
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/edwin_encarnacion.shtml

The 30+ doubles were nice but he is basically putting up Joe Randa type numbers but in the minors. I don't disagree that he's a good prospect and has a chance to be solid major leaguer. But don't just toss out an already "solid" major leaguer for a guy who looks as though he might only project to "solid" as opposed to all star level.

Additionally, if the Reds adding an everyday "prospect" to a trade is what it would take to get a legitimate PITCHING prospect or two in return in one of the deals which will no doubt be forthcoming I'd say do it. This team is in such bad need of pitching and again, if Randa wants to stay in Cincy he does things this feast/famine team badly needs.
Randa is not the future.

westofyou
06-20-2005, 10:38 AM
His value is at it's pinnacle now. The Reds would be foolish to not use him as a trading chip at trade deadline.

I didn't want to trade my WebVan stock... loved those groceries coming to my house... a great idea, a real keeper....

Flip Randa like a pancake and you might find some berries on the otherside that you weren't expecting.

Here's the best 35+ 3rd baseman since the strike.


RUNS CREATED/GAME YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE OPS AGE
1 Tony Fernandez 1999 1.99 7.39 5.40 .089 37
2 Tony Phillips 1995 1.55 6.73 5.19 .082 36
3 Wade Boggs 1995 1.48 6.67 5.19 .063 37
4 Ken Caminiti 1998 1.39 6.48 5.09 .098 35
5 Gary Gaetti 1995 0.70 5.89 5.19 .075 36
6 Vinny Castilla 2004 0.50 5.76 5.26 .089 36
7 Wade Boggs 1996 0.26 5.80 5.55 -.017 38
8 Gary Gaetti 1996 0.20 5.27 5.06 .038 37
9 Todd Zeile 2002 -.27 4.76 5.02 .016 36
10 Cal Ripken 1998 -.58 4.60 5.18 -.052 37
11 Cal Ripken 1997 -.61 4.52 5.13 -.037 36
12 Vinny Castilla 2003 -.75 4.40 5.15 .000 35
13 Gary Gaetti 1997 -1.36 3.76 5.12 -.057 38
14 Terry Pendleton 1996 -1.95 3.11 5.06 -.126 35
15 Cal Ripken 2001 -2.00 3.04 5.04 -.126 40

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:38 AM
Randa is not the future.possibly in a different universe.

savafan
06-20-2005, 10:40 AM
Okay, I'll go over to the dark side on this one. I like Randa, and I like the leadership that he brings to the team. I also feel that any minor leaguer is an unproven until major league production says otherwise. Look at the at bats wasted on Brandon Larson and Willie Greene. Hopefully, EE doesn't fit into that category, but how will we know? You don't just hand a starting job to a kid without first seeing what he can do at the major league level.

That said, I agree with rdiersin. If Randa enjoys playing here, and it seems like he does, you trade him now and then talk about re-signing him in the offseason.

BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 10:41 AM
But the guy is 35 yrs. old and has a 1 year contract. Who's to say he'd *want* to come back to the Reds next year? I can see a multiple teams bidding on his services.

His value is at it's pinnacle now. The Reds would be foolish to not use him as a trading chip at trade deadline.

He will be one of those players that I'll think well of if he appears in GABP in an opponents uniform and will get applause from Roy. Class guy.
I hear you ....with him it is all about what he "wants" to do as well. If he doesn't WANT to stay in Cincy then it's a no brainer, trade him. But if you land on a guy like Randa with the solid, steady game and intangibles he has and he WANTS to stay in Cincy there is no reason to dump him just because he's a one year deal veteran.

Has anyone seen alot of Encarnacion live? He is certainly NOT a speed guy and NOT going to be a big HR guy. He looks to project to maybe a .280+ guy with maybe 30+ 2Bs but again his fielding is still under question. Well Reds have that type offensive player already with better defense and alot of intangibles.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 10:42 AM
Another bad comparison. Joe Randa was 22 and in A ball, OPSd .789.

EE was 21 playing in AA and OPSd at .795

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:42 AM
Okay, I'll go over to the dark side on this one. I like Randa, and I like the leadership that he brings to the team. I also feel that any minor leaguer is an unproven until major league production says otherwise. Look at the at bats wasted on Brandon Larson and Willie Greene. Hopefully, EE doesn't fit into that category, but how will we know? You don't just hand a starting job to a kid without first seeing what he can do at the major league level.

That said, I agree with rdiersin. If Randa enjoys playing here, and it seems like he does, you trade him now and then talk about re-signing him in the offseason.So you see Randa in 2005 as a new performance level and not an aberration? Jimmy Haynes in 2002 and Paul Wilson in 2004 come to mind as recent examples of this line of thinking.

REDREAD
06-20-2005, 10:43 AM
Bad Fundamentals.. Part of the reason Randa signed here during the winter was due to all the other acquisions the Reds made. He was tired of being in KC, where all they were doing was spinning their wheels. He thought Cincy was on the way up. So even if we wanted to resign Randa, it's doubtful he'd want to return. I'm not saying it's good or bad to resign Randa for next year, just saying that I doubt it's possible.

It's highly likely that we're going to finish in last place with or without Randa. If we can get something useful for Randa, we have to pull the trigger. A half season of Randa when the year is lost just isn't worth it. However, the Reds should not give Randa away. If they are only offered Tim Hummels for him, they should hold him. I expect DanO to get lowballed for Randa, given that it's obvious Allen is going to kick the team into firesale mode. DanO needs to get value for Randa when he does trade him.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:44 AM
Another bad comparison. Joe Randa was 22 and in A ball, OPSd .789.

EE was 21 playing in AA and OPSd at .795EE happens to have an OPS of .880(higher than Randa's this year) so far in AAA at the age of 22.

RFS62
06-20-2005, 10:44 AM
Not moving Randa this year would be the same kind of mistake we made last year with Graves when we had him shined up all nice and pretty.

EE is the future. I never loathed the Randa signing (sorry Puffy), but I will grow to if we don't move him for something of value.

ochre
06-20-2005, 10:44 AM
in·er·tia (-nūrsh)

Resistance or disinclination to motion, action, or change

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:45 AM
Part of the reason Randa signed here during the winter was due to all the other acquisions the Reds made. He was tired of being in KC, where all they were doing was spinning their wheels. He thought Cincy was on the way up. So even if we wanted to resign Randa, it's doubtful he'd want to return. I'm not saying it's good or bad to resign Randa for next year, just saying that I doubt it's possible.Sign him, he's going to lead the Reds to the WS in 2006.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:45 AM
Not moving Randa this year would be the same kind of mistake we made last year with Graves ... and Wilson.

RFS62
06-20-2005, 10:46 AM
... and Wilson.


Yep.

smith288
06-20-2005, 10:46 AM
Randa, 35 and a one year contract
EE, 22 and ready for the majors

Your feeling you had about this thread was going to go wasnt unfounded. Its a very bad idea to latch onto Randa over EE especially with how this season has gone.

EE might not be Arod but lets not throw away the unknown for Randa. No offense to Randa who is a fine ballplayer.

ochre
06-20-2005, 10:47 AM
... I will grow to if we don't move him for something of value.
speaking for puffy a bit here, because I feel/felt similarly about the Randa signing as he did (not quite as fervently though). What you said right there is the exact reason TO hate the Randa signing. The fear that the nattering nabobs of inaction would begin to view him not as a bridge to EE, but as the future at third.

BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 10:50 AM
REDREAD, we're not too far apart. If you could get something other than Tim Hummels, Reggie Taylors and Jason Romanos for Randa (and they were pitching ! ! ) , ok then you can certainly look at doing it. But I fear the same as you noted that the Reds would get lowballed and have his age working against him in trade value etc.......

No Randa is not the "future", but if he WANTS to NOT move to another team again, he sure seems to hit well in GABP and brings loads of intangibles/consistency to a team that is screaming for those things. No reason he can't be productive for a few more years..... he has the type of game that isn't heavily reliant on athleticism, optimal "bat speed" or "leg speed" etc.... he has a SMART, solid game.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 10:50 AM
Reds starting infield in 2006

3B - Randa
SS - Machado
2B - Aurilia
1B - Casey

Roy Tucker
06-20-2005, 10:51 AM
... the nattering nabobs of inaction ...
Hey! That's my line! :thumbup:

However, I prefer inert incompetents of inaction.

ochre
06-20-2005, 10:54 AM
Hey! That's my line! :thumbup:

However, I prefer inert incompetents of inaction.
sorry, I should have credited you :).

Figured my modifications fit the "artistic license" criteria :)

RFS62
06-20-2005, 10:55 AM
speaking for puffy a bit here, because I feel/felt similarly about the Randa signing as he did (not quite as fervently though). What you said right there is the exact reason TO hate the Randa signing. The fear that the nattering nabobs of inaction would begin to view him not as a bridge to EE, but as the future at third.


Ooooo, a nattering nabob reference. Me likey.

I guess I never saw him as anything other than a bridge to EE. On the other hand, I never in my wildest dreams thought Aurilia would be anything but a utility player, much less taking the shortstop position from FeLo.

So, if you're right, I will have once again underestimated the nabobitude of our esteemed front office and I will gladly grab my pitchfork and torch and head to Fountain Square to join you and Puffy.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 10:56 AM
and brings loads of intangibles/consistency to a team that is screaming for those things.He's with the team now, and his intangibles/consistency are not adding up to wins. How would that be any different if we keep him around?

wheels
06-20-2005, 10:57 AM
I'll betcha a contending team would give up way too much at the deadline for Joe Randa.

The Reds are stupid, but hopefully not stupid enough to hold onto Randa.

I had these same hopes last season, though.

wheels
06-20-2005, 10:58 AM
He's with the team now, and his intangibles/consistency are not adding up to wins. How would that be any different if we keep him around?

Yup.

TRF
06-20-2005, 10:59 AM
Yeah he doesn't project for power at all. 12 HR's this year, his first in AAA. 249 AB's a .295 BA, .369 OBP, and a .510 SLG

quite frankly, the kid can rake. And he is only 22. Power is usually the last tool to develop, but he seems to have the OB thing down pretty well. Not a Freel or Dunn OB, but above average. He has 16 doubles, and 6 SB's, so he can run a bit too. I'd project his near future to be a 25-30 HR guy, with that expanding to be a 30-35 HR guy after a couple of years. Kinda McGriff like, except at the other end of the field.

Randa is 35 years old. He is not a guy you build around, and EE is playing at a higher level at a younger age than Randa ever did.

Randa has had a great year. Now flip him before it is too late.

rdiersin
06-20-2005, 11:01 AM
I hear you ....with him it is all about what he "wants" to do as well. If he doesn't WANT to stay in Cincy then it's a no brainer, trade him. But if you land on a guy like Randa with the solid, steady game and intangibles he has and he WANTS to stay in Cincy there is no reason to dump him just because he's a one year deal veteran.

Has anyone seen alot of Encarnacion live? He is certainly NOT a speed guy and NOT going to be a big HR guy. He looks to project to maybe a .280+ guy with maybe 30+ 2Bs but again his fielding is still under question. Well Reds have that type offensive player already with better defense and alot of intangibles.

But Randa's more expensive and older. He is going to decline in the next couple years. We will be lucky enough if he keeps up what he is doing now the rest of the season. I'm sorry but I have my doubts there. As far as EE goes, maybe we should give some comparable numbers.

Joe Randa

Age Lvl AB 2B HR RBI BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
21 A 275 20 11 59 46 29 0.338 0.435 0.545 0.980
22 A 189 7 1 12 12 21 0.275 0.323 0.328 0.651
22 A 266 13 5 43 34 37 0.301 0.383 0.406 0.789
23 AA 505 31 11 72 39 64 0.295 0.350 0.442 0.792
24 AAA 455 27 10 51 30 49 0.275 0.324 0.409 0.733
25 AAA 233 10 8 33 22 33 0.275 0.342 0.438 0.780


Aaron Boone

Age Lvl AB 2B HR RBI BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
21 Rk 256 15 7 55 36 35 0.273 0.367 0.453 0.820
22 A 395 19 14 50 43 77 0.261 0.338 0.420 0.758
22 AA 66 3 0 3 5 12 0.227 0.287 0.273 0.560
23 AA 548 44 17 95 38 77 0.288 0.339 0.487 0.826
24 AAA 476 30 22 75 40 81 0.290 0.349 0.508 0.857

EE

Age Lvl AB 2B HR RBI BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS
18 Rk 211 8 5 26 15 29 0.261 0.315 0.389 0.704
18 A 170 9 4 25 12 34 0.306 0.356 0.453 0.809
18 A 37 2 1 6 1 5 0.162 0.192 0.297 0.489
19 A 517 32 17 73 40 108 0.282 0.339 0.458 0.797
20 A 215 15 6 29 24 32 0.321 0.387 0.484 0.871
20 AA 254 13 5 36 22 44 0.272 0.331 0.390 0.721
21 AA 469 35 13 76 53 79 0.281 0.352 0.443 0.795
22 AAA 241 16 12 46 28 47 0.295 0.369 0.510 0.879

Notice he is doing this all at younger ages. Also looking at this year, some of those doubles are already translating into more HRs. That's why it is very important to look at the number of 2bs a prospect has, because they tend to translate to increased power in the majors. The only difference is that he strikeouts more, and we all know your feelings about that, so lets not get into it here.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 11:03 AM
Yeah he doesn't project for power at all. 12 HR's this year, his first in AAA. 249 AB's a .295 BA, .369 OBP, and a .510 SLG

quite frankly, the kid can rake. And he is only 22. Power is usually the last tool to develop, but he seems to have the OB thing down pretty well. Not a Freel or Dunn OB, but above average. He has 16 doubles, and 6 SB's, so he can run a bit too. I'd project his near future to be a 25-30 HR guy, with that expanding to be a 30-35 HR guy after a couple of years. Kinda McGriff like, except at the other end of the field.

Randa is 35 years old. He is not a guy you build around, and EE is playing at a higher level at a younger age than Randa ever did.

Randa has had a great year. Now flip him before it is too late.There is little question about the offensive ability of EE. Now if someone wanted to question if he if up to the challenge defensively at this point, they could most likely make a good argument.

savafan
06-20-2005, 11:03 AM
EE, 22 and ready for the majors



He may very well be, but then again, he may not. The thing is, we won't know unless the Reds bring him up and give him some at bats against ML pitchers. The practice of not bringing guys up so as not to start their arb. clock and then handing them a starting job in the majors with no experience hasn't worked here in Cincinnati.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 11:06 AM
He may very well be, but then again, he may not. Of course he is, he has 3 SFs already this year. :D

traderumor
06-20-2005, 11:09 AM
He may very well be, but then again, he may not. The thing is, we won't know unless the Reds bring him up and give him some at bats against ML pitchers. The practice of not bringing guys up so as not to start their arb. clock and then handing them a starting job in the majors with no experience hasn't worked here in Cincinnati.Not to mention that if they started the clock then bought out their arbitration years once they proved a keeper, they would stop being penny wise and pound foolish. If they're not a keeper, who cares if the clock is ticking?

RedsBaron
06-20-2005, 11:10 AM
Sign him, he's going to lead the Reds to the WS in 2006.
Are you giving up on 2005? Be Positive! ;)

flyer85
06-20-2005, 11:11 AM
Are you giving up on 2005? Be Positive! ;)I'm sorry the season isn't even half over. If they play .750 ball the rest of the way they can still win it!!

RedsBaron
06-20-2005, 11:15 AM
I'm sorry the season isn't even half over. If they play .750 ball the rest of the way they can still win it!!
That's the spirit! If O'Brien sees your post, he may just offer you a job. ;)

Johnny Footstool
06-20-2005, 11:20 AM
I like Randa, and I like the leadership that he brings to the team.

Not to single you out, sava, but where has his (or anyone else's) leadership taken the team? All reports say the clubhouse is a miserable place right now, and the Reds on-field performance is tee-ball-esque.

Let's get the Reds a couple of pitchers who strike out 7 batters per game first. Then we'll seek some leadership.

buckeyenut
06-20-2005, 11:22 AM
This post is completely opposite what it should be. Randa needs to go NOW. Every time he steps on the field for us, he runs the risk of getting injured and KILLING his trade value.

There are four or five teams that could badly use a Joe Randa right now. We ought to be working the phones hard to get him and Casey both dealt. Casey's .322 BA is gonna have someone hot after him too.

MartyFan
06-20-2005, 11:23 AM
Okay...the water in the kettle has been turned up ever so slight;y as not to alarm the frog....Look, Randa, Aurilla, Weathers, Weber and Mercker are perfect to trade...unfortunately Weathers, Weber have not really shown anything left in the tank and Aurillia has been late coming to the party but Randa and Mercker should be in other uniforms soon so we can get a couple of prospects (not blue chips but decent prospects) for their reasonable paying short term stay in Cincy.

In short...these are the kind of guys that pad a small market team roster to be traded away to build for the future.

KronoRed
06-20-2005, 11:26 AM
I knew this topic was coming.

Randa is old, the team won't be winning for at least 5 years, Randa will be retired by then..Trade him.

wheels
06-20-2005, 11:30 AM
They have the chips, and they need to be cashed in.

Casey and Randa should go, follwed by Mercker.

If they can get a deal done for Griffey, that would be icing on the cake.

Offer to pay some salary, but get them gone.

Garrett
06-20-2005, 11:34 AM
Joe's a stud. His age 35 season is going to be his breakout season and is only going to get better from here.

Yeah, he's 35, and it doesn't get any better unless you have some steiroso sauce in the old stall every morning. My 7 year old loves him, but you have to trade the ones you love. See Aaron Boone.
He and Mercker are the only two obvious moves a GM can play. I keep hoping Aurelia and Weathers would start playing over their heads so they could be added to the stew.
We need good young players!

savafan
06-20-2005, 11:35 AM
Not to single you out, sava, but where has his (or anyone else's) leadership taken the team? All reports say the clubhouse is a miserable place right now, and the Reds on-field performance is tee-ball-esque.



True, but there must be leadership in a clubhouse somewhere, and right now all we hear about is Casey and Randa. Wilson was said to be a leader for the pitchers, but now he's done. The rest of the guys are pretty young, and I don't see any of them stepping up. Of course, this would all be a moot point if leadership came from the manager's office.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 11:55 AM
True, but there must be leadership in a clubhouse somewhere, and right now all we hear about is Casey and Randa. Wilson was said to be a leader for the pitchers, but now he's done. The rest of the guys are pretty young, and I don't see any of them stepping up. Of course, this would all be a moot point if leadership came from the manager's office.

Leadership does not trump talent. There is not enough talent, so leadership is a moot point. Not to mention talent is quantifiable, whereas leadership is intangible and arguable as to whether it is really a contributor to success or not. And, as has been pointed out, the team that just left town is a great example of where the true leadership ought to come from.

zombie-a-go-go
06-20-2005, 11:59 AM
Casey and Randa are leaders in the clubhouse, yes.

Which way are they leading the club, though?

Somewhere, between the friendly banter and the hugs, they missed the on-ramp and are driving the bus down a lonely, desolate farmhouse road. The headlights are busted, so they can't see the signs telling them how to turn it around, and they don't seem to care that they're almost out of gas, the engine's rattling something fierce, and the back tire's about to go flat.

Lindner sprang for a GPS system before the trip, but Obie didn't bother to install it.

And Gullett ain't no mechanic.

(Man, I'm bad at analogies :laugh: )

You get my point, though.

RedsBaron
06-20-2005, 12:07 PM
I really like Joe Randa. He has played well both at bat and in the field, seems to be a good guy, and would be just the fellow I'd want to have on a contending team.
Trade him.
The Reds won't be contenders for some time, and Randa is 35 years old.
Thank him for his professionalism on a team that needs it.
Trade him.
Get some young talent for him, preferably a pitcher.
A trade to a contender would be a favor to Randa.
Trade him.

deltachi8
06-20-2005, 12:16 PM
The Titanic had a captain too...

KronoRed
06-20-2005, 12:19 PM
The Titanic had a captain too...
Went down with the ship didn't he? ;)

reds44
06-20-2005, 12:31 PM
I saw the ChiSox are interested in Randa, I wonder what we could get out of them? Personally I think if we dont trade Randa it we be a very stupid move. We have our best prospect waiting to get his shot in AAA. Will we be able to resign Randa after this year? Probably not. Is Randa young, no. Will Randa help us contend this year, no. So why let him leave in free agency at the end of the year, when you can get something for him now. See what the Royals did with Carlos Beltran, that seems like an ovbious thing to do.

The_jbh
06-20-2005, 12:34 PM
If Joe Randa was 22, i would be all over resigning him, but he's 35.

This topic is a prime example of what is wrong with this organization. We are a small market team. We must build through player development much like the Twins, the Marlins, the A's etc... Joe Randa was signed as a stopgap. No one wanted to rush EE and so by signing randa, it allowed us to "attempt" to be competitive this year and have a solid 3Bman. THis year is shot, and EE is producing in AAA, knocking on Cincy's door. Now is the time to bring him up.

EE is the future at 3B, it's just the way it is. If he blows it, ok, thats the way player development goes. In 2 or 3 years we'll have some1 else willing to take the ABs im sure. If he suceeds, we have a young 3Bman that will be making the major league minimum for 3 years and hop in to arbitration years the following 3. This is how organizations that arent boston and new york work. If we kept Randa we'd be counterproductive. We arent going to sign randa and trade EE for randy johnson. We arent the yankess, we dont trade prospects for stars. We are a mid to small market team that must develop their stars.


Randa's value will be at an all time high in the next couple weeks. We can probably get a top prospect maybe even 2 for him. THat is 2 more guys we can develop and hopefully will do the same the EE is doing, pushing himself into the major league line up/rotation

BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 12:51 PM
But 35 is not that old for a guy with his game if he has the "want" to play longer and the "want" to be in Cincy. His game is NOT based on great athleticism, great bat speed, great legs...none of that. His is a smart, fundamental game which would be of great influence as this team no doubt gets younger....

Even Pinella is upset about not having at least a few solid veterans around in Tampa to give them a chance. You can't go TOTAL youth. There is always room for a few key every day veterans and pitching veterans even in the midst of a youth movement.

Randa ain't chopped liver. He is a great mix avg, power, intangibles etc. - he'll hit anywhere from 2-7 in lineup and produce. And he has only made THREE errors all year.

smith288
06-20-2005, 12:54 PM
But 35 is not that old for a guy with his game if he has the "want" to play longer and the "want" to be in Cincy. His game is NOT based on great athleticism, great bat speed, great legs...none of that. His is a smart, fundamental game which would be of great influence as this team no doubt gets younger....

Even Pinella is upset about not having at least a few solid veterans around in Tampa to give them a chance. You can't go TOTAL youth. There is always room for a few key every day veterans and pitching veterans even in the midst of a youth movement.

Randa ain't chopped liver. He is a great mix avg, power, intangibles etc. - he'll hit anywhere from 2-7 in lineup and produce. And he has only made THREE errors all year. Then send Randa to Tampa... Randa's future is not here.

You have a tough time admitting fault in an argument.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 12:54 PM
Trade Randa to TB for Kazmir.

Nah, the Reds would regret it when Randa leads the Eggs to the WS in 2006.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 01:04 PM
But 35 is not that old for a guy with his game if he has the "want" to play longer and the "want" to be in Cincy. His game is NOT based on great athleticism, great bat speed, great legs...none of that. His is a smart, fundamental game which would be of great influence as this team no doubt gets younger....

Even Pinella is upset about not having at least a few solid veterans around in Tampa to give them a chance. You can't go TOTAL youth. There is always room for a few key every day veterans and pitching veterans even in the midst of a youth movement.

Randa ain't chopped liver. He is a great mix avg, power, intangibles etc. - he'll hit anywhere from 2-7 in lineup and produce. And he has only made THREE errors all year.And he also happens to play a position that we have a replacement for...a cheaper replacement...a younger replacement...a faster replacement...a replacement with more power...a replacement with his best years ahead of him...oh, he has made more errors, there is a downside. Not to mention the short list of 3Bman on the market right now for those looking for one to choose from.

Now, let me weigh that...looks to me like the scale is weighted pretty heavily on the replacement's side, what to do, what to do.

The_jbh
06-20-2005, 01:05 PM
Adamn Dunn is a 5 year player, Ken Griffey JR, Sean Casey Eric Milton, even Larue are vetrans...

ur arguement isn't there. Resigning Randa is exactly what an organization like the Reds shouldn't do...



I'll use the marlins for example. Burnett and Lowell were both prospects recieved through trade and they later became their stars. Bone of them if not both i believe was dealt for an ageing starter that didnt fit in long term plans... AL Leiter...

we must grather prospects and raise stars, not sign 35 year old stop gaps.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 01:05 PM
You have a tough time admitting fault in an argument.tough time = not possible

Red Leader
06-20-2005, 01:08 PM
There is always room for a few key every day veterans and pitching veterans even in the midst of a youth movement.


This is a very true statement, however, you don't keep those "every day veterans" if they are blocking your top prospects. Not only that, but the best time to add those "veterans" is when you have your young "core" intact and are starting to make a playoff run. That's when those veterans help. The Reds are no where near playoff contention, and as such, Randa should be moved to help find more of those younger "core" players we need to assemble to make a playoff run

BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 01:13 PM
If Encarnacion was solid with the glove and was touted for things like "situational hitting", versatility, speed etc.....then you do definitley move Randa. Reds as a TEAM need to change their mix of players to incorporate more of those things. But when your prospect brings suspect defense and doesn't address the true voids on team his value added to this team will be far less. Randa has extra value to THIS team because his skill set is so lacking with other players.

Joe Morgan et al were talking about Chisox last night and what makes their offense so great is that they have so many different ways to score. If Reds aren't hitting long balls with guys on base then chances are they struggling (relatively speaking).

flyer85
06-20-2005, 01:14 PM
This is a very true statement, however, you don't keep those "every day veterans" if they are blocking your top prospects. Not only that, but the best time to add those "veterans" is when you have your young "core" intact and are starting to make a playoff run. That's when those veterans help. The Reds are no where near playoff contention, and as such, Randa should be moved to help find more of those younger "core" players we need to assemble to make a playoff runDon't go bringing logic into play. You're just going to confuse people.

BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 01:17 PM
This is a very true statement, however, you don't keep those "every day veterans" if they are blocking your top prospects. Not only that, but the best time to add those "veterans" is when you have your young "core" intact and are starting to make a playoff run. That's when those veterans help. The Reds are no where near playoff contention, and as such, Randa should be moved to help find more of those younger "core" players we need to assemble to make a playoff run
That is why you "swap" out a key/top Reds prospect (Encarnacion) for an equally strong pitching prospect(s) in a deal. You can't block him indefinitely - agreed.

And IF another team wanted RAnda bad enough that they are willing to give up top pitching prospect(s) for him then ok maybe you do it. But you don't just do it for Romano and Bong because he is a one year guy and REds have EE in the minors. Randa is far too valuable to this team if he wants to be in Cincy.

rdiersin
06-20-2005, 01:20 PM
If Encarnacion was solid with the glove and was touted for things like "situational hitting", versatility, speed etc.....then you do definitley move Randa. Reds as a TEAM need to change their mix of players to incorporate more of those things. But when your prospect brings suspect defense and doesn't address the true voids on team his value added to this team will be far less. Randa has extra value to THIS team because his skill set is so lacking with other players.

Joe Morgan et al were talking about Chisox last night and what makes their offense so great is that they have so many different ways to score. If Reds aren't hitting long balls with guys on base then chances are they struggling (relatively speaking).

Do you know how good his "situational" hitting is? I mean really, what stats do you have to back this up? Have you seen everyone of his games this year to have an imformed opinion? He has a lot of rbi, since that is important to you. He has several SFs, since that is important to you. He also has a good OPS. I really haven't seen any compelling argument you have made against EE starting over Randa. The errors? The errors will come around. Most are on throws, seems like another young player we have that has turned a corner and is playing decent defense right now.

Crash Davis
06-20-2005, 01:22 PM
Additionally, for anyone who hasn't seen Encarnacion play live....let me lay a little bit of a scary comparison on you, BRANDON LARSON. Hopefully not, but they both have that short, stocky build and from what I saw Encarnacion had a long stride, swoop swing that looked to be more of that dead pull hitter stuff we see every night with 80% of the current Reds players. Again, a little Brandon Larsony..........

You say you have seen Encarnacion live? Then you should know that he's not built like Brandon Larson. Where are you getting short and stocky? He was a skinny 6'1" when he came to the Reds, and he's bulked up some. But stocky? He's more Griffey Jr. than Brandon Larson.

Larson was killing AAA pitching at age 27. Encarnacion is mashing at age 22.

Come on.

M2
06-20-2005, 01:23 PM
I've seen Edwin Encarnacion a number of times and anyone who'd compare him to Brandon Larson is hopelessly lost.

BRM
06-20-2005, 01:23 PM
Wow. A thread debating whether to trade Joe Randa is actually four pages long. I'm always amazed at these types of discussions. What seems like common sense to some is crazy talk to others. Personally, I can't imagine any reason why the Reds would NOT trade Randa.

westofyou
06-20-2005, 01:26 PM
I can't imagine any reason why the Reds would NOT trade Randa.

Maybe he knows where the chairs are?

OldRightHander
06-20-2005, 01:28 PM
But 35 is not that old for a guy with his game if he has the "want" to play longer and the "want" to be in Cincy. His game is NOT based on great athleticism, great bat speed, great legs...none of that. His is a smart, fundamental game which would be of great influence as this team no doubt gets younger....

Even Pinella is upset about not having at least a few solid veterans around in Tampa to give them a chance. You can't go TOTAL youth. There is always room for a few key every day veterans and pitching veterans even in the midst of a youth movement.

Randa ain't chopped liver. He is a great mix avg, power, intangibles etc. - he'll hit anywhere from 2-7 in lineup and produce. And he has only made THREE errors all year.

I will admit the truth in a lot of what you way. I really like Randa and I love the way he plays the game, but he obviously isn't the long term solution at 3B. I do agree with you that some veteran leadership on a team is needed, but if the team is stinking, that veteran leadership isn't really accomplishing much. In '99, Vaughn provided that leadership that took what was a pretty young team and made them great, but the leadership he provided was of a wholly different nature than what we can expect from Randa or Casey. Vaughn wasn't out to be every other player's good buddy and make the clubhouse a warm fuzzy tight knit happy place to be. He was the kind of leader who wasn't afraid to hold his teammaters accountable. Is there anyone on the Reds now who is exhibiting that kind of leadership? I don't have an inside source into the Reds clubhouse, but from what I'm hearing, veteran leadership, of the kind this team needs, is not in very great supply. Randa could best serve the long term interests of this club by being swapped for some reasonably decent pitching. He probably couldn't bring a number 1, but someone with a non-injured arm could be had for him. I'd like that deal to be done by someone other than DanO, but I'd take what I can get. This year is shot and next year might be as well if drastic changes aren't made. We have to look to the future and that future doesn't include Randa.

BRM
06-20-2005, 01:28 PM
Maybe he knows where the chairs are?

Does he have Graves jersey hanging over his mantle?

Red Leader
06-20-2005, 01:42 PM
Maybe he knows where the chairs are?

Pssst. They're in the chapel.

MWM
06-20-2005, 01:47 PM
The Reds have scored 19 more runs this year than the ChiSox. They have the exact same batting average, the Reds are better by .013 in OBP, and the Reds outslug the Sox by .440 to .417 and have accumulated 91 more bases.

I'll take the Reds' offense over the ChiSox. It helps the Sox that they have the second best ERA in the game. The Reds are 2.07 runs/game worse than the ChiSox. So why are we talking about offense?

SteelSD
06-20-2005, 01:48 PM
If Encarnacion was solid with the glove and was touted for things like "situational hitting", versatility, speed etc.....then you do definitley move Randa. Reds as a TEAM need to change their mix of players to incorporate more of those things. But when your prospect brings suspect defense and doesn't address the true voids on team his value added to this team will be far less. Randa has extra value to THIS team because his skill set is so lacking with other players.

I swear that you just latch on to catchphrases like a salesman uses power words.

Versatility.

Lots of guys get praise for being "versatile". The vast VAST majority of them are light hitting utility infielders.


Joe Morgan et al were talking about Chisox last night and what makes their offense so great is that they have so many different ways to score. If Reds aren't hitting long balls with guys on base then chances are they struggling (relatively speaking).

LOL!

"...so many different ways to score..."

You mean like Home Runs? The White Sox are third in the AL in longballs and fifth in the Major Leagues. Their team Batting Average (.260) is identical to the Reds team BA. Adjusted for the DH, it's worse. They're 19th in MLB in OPS with RISP and 18th in BA with RISP (the all-important category according to you).

I dunno what's worse- Joe Morgan saying that or you taking it as gospel.

flyer85
06-20-2005, 01:49 PM
The Reds have scored 19 more runs this year than the ChiSox. They have the exact same batting average, the Reds are better by .13 in OBP, and the Reds outslug the Sox by .440 to .417 and have accumulated 91 more bases.

I'll take the Reds' offense over the ChiSox. It helps the Sox that they have the second best ERA in the game. The Reds are 2.07 runs/game worse than the ChiSox. So why are we talking about offense?Because this is the Reds. We ignore the mountains and focus on the mole hills.

Chip R
06-20-2005, 01:50 PM
He makes George Grande giddy with his "professional" at bats.Well, if he makes George Grande giddy, by all means sign him to a multi-year deal. Because, in order to make this a better team, we need to make our announcers happy. I think that's how Branch Rickey and Ed Barrow built their teams.

OldRightHander
06-20-2005, 01:52 PM
And he also happens to play a position that we have a replacement for...a cheaper replacement...a younger replacement...a faster replacement...a replacement with more power...a replacement with his best years ahead of him...oh, he has made more errors, there is a downside. Not to mention the short list of 3Bman on the market right now for those looking for one to choose from.

Now, let me weigh that...looks to me like the scale is weighted pretty heavily on the replacement's side, what to do, what to do.

Stop! You're making too much sense. We can't have that happening around here.

OldRightHander
06-20-2005, 01:56 PM
Joe Morgan et al were talking about Chisox last night and what makes their offense so great is that they have so many different ways to score. If Reds aren't hitting long balls with guys on base then chances are they struggling (relatively speaking).

The last time I checked, the only way to score was by crossing home plate, and the Reds haven't had much trouble doing that this year. The Sox don't have the Reds' pitching staff and that's why they're winning.

traderumor
06-20-2005, 01:59 PM
Randa has extra value to THIS team because his skill set is so lacking with other players.

Again, the results say something different. Randa has contributed exactly what we thought he would contribute offensively and defensively, perhaps a little more power than I expected. However, all the other subjective attributes are contributing nothing, zilch, nada, as evidenced by the last place standing in the NL. Even if we were contending, Randa would be a good trading chip because EE is that ready, IMO. All of that other garbage you mention is just unquantifiable baseball speak that has been around as long as the game.

OldRightHander
06-20-2005, 02:01 PM
But that unquantifiable baseball speak is what you get when you have folks who watch Sportscenter and take notes.

RosieRed
06-20-2005, 02:21 PM
The Reds have scored 19 more runs this year than the ChiSox. They have the exact same batting average, the Reds are better by .013 in OBP, and the Reds outslug the Sox by .440 to .417 and have accumulated 91 more bases.

I'll take the Reds' offense over the ChiSox. It helps the Sox that they have the second best ERA in the game. The Reds are 2.07 runs/game worse than the ChiSox. So why are we talking about offense?

MWM, I can't believe you even have to ask this. We're talking about offense because 1. if we could outscore our own pitchers, then 2. we'd win more games! We need MORE offense! 12 runs a night!

;)

As for EdE, I was ready to bring him north with the club after I watched him in spring training. Prior to seeing him play, I wasn't all that big on EdE. Then I saw him play and he completely changed my mind. In one week.

I don't think you can make any argument against his bat, which leaves his defense (most likely, his arm). This season is already in the tank, so why not bring him up now and get started on improving his defense? That way he'll have half a season up here, working with major league coaches, getting used to playing alongside F.Lopez, and a half seasn of going up against major league pitching. Why wait?

TRF
06-20-2005, 02:26 PM
Attacking BF with logic will get you nowhere.

Randa should be moved post haste, preferrably to a team with a ton of high ceiling pitching talent at high levels of the minor leagues.

Let the bidding begin. He can bring in as much if not more than Boone did. And I liked the return on Boone.

wheels
06-20-2005, 02:28 PM
Just wanted throw in the fact that minor league error totals are subjective and erroneous at times.

I'll make judgements about Edwin's defense when he's in the majors.

His bat's ready, and that's the important thing.

BadFundamentals
06-20-2005, 02:45 PM
Yes, Reds are doing pretty well in scoring runs. There is no doubt PITCHING is the main problem - after that, arguably problem #2 is alot of the things that go along with lack of leadership/intangibles/mix/chemistry of players.

At mlb level when talking about everyday players, (apart from a few star players) the skill level is so high on ALL teams that it is that extra "something(s)" that goes along way. Teams like the D-Rays have and can still beat Bosox or Yanks in a series. If their skill level was night and day they would never do that.

After pitching, it is the mix/type of players that needs to be addressed.......no everyday player on this team should be untouchable. Regardless of age, Randa just happens to be one of the few guys who brings what this team desperately lacks.

M2
06-20-2005, 02:54 PM
The Reds have scored 19 more runs this year than the ChiSox. They have the exact same batting average, the Reds are better by .013 in OBP, and the Reds outslug the Sox by .440 to .417 and have accumulated 91 more bases.

I'll take the Reds' offense over the ChiSox. It helps the Sox that they have the second best ERA in the game. The Reds are 2.07 runs/game worse than the ChiSox. So why are we talking about offense?

Because it's the offense's fault that the team can't pitch. At least that's as near as I've been able to figure it. Or perhaps it's because far too many people fail to perceive the part of the game that involves pitching.

Anyway, excellent post. My add is that the White Sox also get to play with a DH and the Reds still outscore them.

wheels
06-20-2005, 02:57 PM
Yes, Reds are doing pretty well in scoring runs. There is no doubt PITCHING is the main problem - after that, arguably problem #2 is alot of the things that go along with lack of leadership/intangibles/mix/chemistry of players.

At mlb level when talking about everyday players, (apart from a few star players) the skill level is so high on ALL teams that it is that extra "something(s)" that goes along way. Teams like the D-Rays have and can still beat Bosox or Yanks in a series. If their skill level was night and day they would never do that.

After pitching, it is the mix/type of players that needs to be addressed.......no everyday player on this team should be untouchable. Regardless of age, Randa just happens to be one of the few guys who brings what this team desperately lacks.

What are these extra somethings you speak of?

How do these mysterious "somethings" help a club that's already second in the league in scoring?

Do these "somethings" make it more fun of the players before and after games?

I'm not following.

BRM
06-20-2005, 02:57 PM
Because it's the offense's fault that the team can't pitch. At least that's as near as I've been able to figure it. Or perhaps it's because far too many people fail to perceive the part of the game that involves pitching.

Anyway, excellent post. My add is that the White Sox also get to play with a DH and the Reds still outscore them.

But the White Sox offense is more versatile... :evil:

dsmith421
06-20-2005, 03:01 PM
That's a great idea. Let's retard the progress of our best prospect. If you can get a quality pitching prospect for Randa, you do it without thinking. Heck, if you've got that much of a thing for him, you can re-sign him in the offseason.

Seriously, some of the stuff I read on this board is actually dumber than what O'Brien and Miley are actually doing, which I didn't think was possible.

Red Leader
06-20-2005, 03:05 PM
Seriously, some of the stuff I read on this board is actually dumber than what O'Brien and Miley are actually doing, which I didn't think was possible.

Ain't it grand???

http://www.amazoncastle.com/postcard/bugs2.gif

M2
06-20-2005, 03:08 PM
If Encarnacion was solid with the glove and was touted for things like "situational hitting", versatility, speed etc.....then you do definitley move Randa.

Saw this quoted by others and had to comment. So basically if Edwin Encarnacion were Edwin Encarnacion you'd trade Joe Randa?

Because he is faster, a lot faster, wildly faster. He's also far more versatile, offering the same BA with additional BBs and power on top of the speed. He'll get more doubles, more triples, more homers, more BBS, more SBs and the same BA. Definitionally-speaking, that's more versatile.

Situational hitting? We're talking about the Joe Randa who's hitting .268/.391/.393 with runners in scoring position, right? The one who's been .276/.341/.416 w/RISP since 2002? I'm not real worried about taking too much of a blow in the situational category if Randa ships out seeing that he's just a fairly pedestrian hitter in every situation.

M2
06-20-2005, 03:09 PM
But the White Sox offense is more versatile... :evil:

Well, their shoes match their jerseys and black's always stylish. I hear black is the new black this year.

BRM
06-20-2005, 03:12 PM
Well, their shoes match their jerseys and black's always stylish. I hear black is the new black this year.

Their manager loves that smallball stuff...you know, three run HR's are considered smallball right?

Chip R
06-20-2005, 04:15 PM
Well, their shoes match their jerseys and black's always stylish. I hear black is the new black this year.I thought orange was the new black.

pedro
06-20-2005, 04:19 PM
I thought orange was the new black.

Clean hair is back "in" too.

pedro
06-20-2005, 04:22 PM
Regardless of age, Randa just happens to be one of the few guys who brings what this team desperately lacks.

Randa pitches?

You can toss all the homilies around you want, it's still a load of manure.

Raisor
06-20-2005, 06:21 PM
I really think the Reds should sign Kent Merker to a ten year deal.

KronoRed
06-20-2005, 06:43 PM
I really think the Reds should sign Kent Merker to a ten year deal.
20 with a 5 year option

ochre
06-20-2005, 08:15 PM
You can toss all the homilies around you want, it's still a load of manure.

I like my homilies with grits.

The Baumer
06-20-2005, 08:20 PM
ok....a couple years ago the Reds traded its most productive player at the time (Guillen) to make room for Griffey and its young, budding star outfielders. The emergence of Harang has certainly helped offset the loss of a bat like Guillen however, point remains.

Randa does things that this team badly needs. He provides solid if unexceptional defense. He uses the whole field. He makes George Grande giddy with his "professional" at bats. With Casey's power loss he and Lopez have best mix of avg. and power on team. He is also pretty much immune to extended slumps. He is steady.

Additionally, for anyone who hasn't seen Encarnacion play live....let me lay a little bit of a scary comparison on you, BRANDON LARSON. Hopefully not, but they both have that short, stocky build and from what I saw Encarnacion had a long stride, swoop swing that looked to be more of that dead pull hitter stuff we see every night with 80% of the current Reds players. Again, a little Brandon Larsony..........

Hopefully, what I saw was not representative of the full Encarnacion batting tools but he didn't tear up AA pitching the past couple years and is doing something less than having a field day with AAA this year (while putting up 18 errors).

If Randa wants to play a few more years and wants to stay in Cincy, with his game there is no reason he couldn't be solid for a few more years to come. It's one thing to move along a marginal/bubble guy to make room for a "prospect" but displacing a solid producer for anything but a surething is another thing.............

Oh man, you just went against the majority. :eek:

Look for the community leaders to try and set you straight with some of their token rebuilding mantra. After a few of them rally back to back posts together you're opinion will officially be considred invalid in the eye's of the "followers".

However I agree with you.

pedro
06-20-2005, 08:38 PM
Oh man, you just went against the majority. :eek:

Look for the community leaders to try and set you straight with some of their token rebuilding mantra. After a few of them rally back to back posts together you're opinion will officially be considred invalid in the eye's of the "followers".

However I agree with you.

It's ok if you don't want to trade Randa but you do realize that BF has no idea what he is talking about...... don't you?

traderumor
06-20-2005, 08:45 PM
Oh man, you just went against the majority. :eek:

Look for the community leaders to try and set you straight with some of their token rebuilding mantra. After a few of them rally back to back posts together you're opinion will officially be considred invalid in the eye's of the "followers".

However I agree with you.In some cases, the minority sees something that the majority does not. This would not be one of those cases. The minority view here is that because it is contrary to the best course of action.

So, rather than being abrasive and saying nothing to add to the conversation, why do you think trading Randa is not the move you would make?

RosieRed
06-20-2005, 08:47 PM
Oh man, you just went against the majority. :eek:

Look for the community leaders to try and set you straight with some of their token rebuilding mantra. After a few of them rally back to back posts together you're opinion will officially be considred invalid in the eye's of the "followers".

However I agree with you.

Please clue me in. Who are the "community leaders," and who are the "followers"? What are you insinuating?

pedro
06-20-2005, 09:01 PM
Please clue me in. Who are the "community leaders," and who are the "followers"? What are you insinuating?

http://thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr/nwo/Illuminati_pyramid_structure.jpg

KronoRed
06-20-2005, 09:43 PM
So when do we get a "Don't Trade Aurilia" thread? ;)

RedsBaron
06-20-2005, 09:54 PM
So when do we get a "Don't Trade Aurilia" thread? ;)
Dave Miley will probably start it.

Aronchis
06-20-2005, 10:00 PM
I have seen EE play, his overall game makes Larson look like a German cow.

forfreelin04
06-20-2005, 10:13 PM
EE could very well put up similar numbers to Willie Greene and Brandon Larson. Until he has a solid first season in the bigs, I ain't drooling over him.

The_jbh
06-21-2005, 02:33 AM
Yada yada... yes he is going against the majority, just like i've gone against the majority on many things in the past. However im not disagreeing because of the majority, im disagreeing because signing Joe Randa is the wrong thing for this franchise and this is why....


I'll start by saying i completely agree that Randa's skills are what we need at 3B. We need solid defense, and a consistent at bat. His "leadership" is something i can't really support because this clubhouse is in shambles and has made me reconsider my high opinion of Casey's clubhouse presence that i have cried is underrated on this board.
Joe Randa is average across the bored. He is a very solid major league player, but he has no place left on this squad.

The fact of the matter is, our top prospect is a major league ready 3Bman. Small market teams like the Reds thrive off player development and EE is a major piece of that. Randa is in his way. By resigning Randa, we are blocking a potential star. Is he just going to rot in AAA? Most teams don't trade prospects for prospects so we'd have to trade him for a vet? so the combination of resigning randa and trading for a vet is going to add a big chunk of payroll.
Also with money, EE will make the major league minumum for the next 3 years, plus has 3 arbitration years. Assuming EE becomes a .280 20-25 hr guy, he will be cheaper than Randa for the next 4 years (1st year of arbitration guys "typically dont get much more than a mil or 2 a year, and i'd project resigning randa at about 2.5 a year ATLEAST)
So financially resigning Randa makes 0 sense.

Money aside, it doesnt make much sense either. Joe Randa is 35. His age will catch up to him, you can not deny his career is on the decline, he can only get worse.
EE on the other hand is the exact opposite. His slate is clean, he could become a major league star.

I will be the first to admit, that EE could flop just like larson. Prospects are like the lottery or a poker hand or whatever. Many more flop that suceed. EE is a pocket bullett prospect though. We need to see what we have here. He is MUCH better of a prospect that Greene or Larson ever were. scouts say he can be above average across the board which would make him better than Randa. THat is a projection, but you can't tell if that projection can come true without giving him a shot in the majors.

The fact of the matter is, this season is shot. We are done. Joe Randa is an aging vetran on a "rebuilding team." We can get a couple solid prospects for him at the deadline, and work towards building a solid team to contend in the next couple of years. Keeping Joe Randa into next year isnt going to take us to the playoffs. However getting 2 solid prospects and grooming EE could.

say we get 2 pitching prospects for randa. If even 1 pans out to be a quality starter, we are better of than before. All prospects are wildcards, but the law of averages says the more chances we have (more prospects we have) the more success we are going to have (sucessful major league players)

This team is more than a player or 2 away from the playoffs. Trading Randa for prospects and seeing if they and/or EE pan out is the correct move to get to the playoffs. It would be a step in the right direction.

Ron Madden
06-21-2005, 04:50 AM
So when do we get a "Don't Trade Aurilia" thread? ;)

Whenever Lopez goes 0 for 10 and Marty gets down on him.
BadFundamentals and others will be calling Lopez FLOP again.

puca
06-21-2005, 06:59 AM
EE could very well put up similar numbers to Willie Greene and Brandon Larson. Until he has a solid first season in the bigs, I ain't drooling over him.

Of course he can't have a solid season in the majors if he is not given a shot. But why aim for greatness when you can settle for mediocre?

oneupper
06-21-2005, 08:52 AM
Larson was a tragic figure. I feel for the guy, almost a magnet for injuries.

Unlike other "fallen heroes" he is tearing up AA right now.


Player AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO
B Larson .341 23 88 15 30 8 0 6 26 56 9 23

As for EE, he un unproven at this point. The REDS practically have an obligation to give him a FAIR SHOT (i.e. stick with him even if he's hitting .180 in June) in 2006. That is what he has been told (or has been led to belieive) and the organization should send out a signal that it gives opportunities to worthy young talent.

As for Randa...good ballplayer. I'm sure he'd relish the opportunity to go to a contender in the second half of this year and I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing in his hometown in 2006 (Milwaukee).

Raisor
07-18-2005, 03:12 PM
It's almost been a month, do those that wanted to keep Randa still want to keep him and do those that wanted to trade him still want to trade him?

I'm of the opinion that he HAS to be moved.

NJReds
07-18-2005, 03:15 PM
I think you have to. I like what he's brought to the team, but if you've got 3 or 4 teams bidding for his service it's time to pull the trigger.

However, if we're just going to dump him for a couple of AA prospects with no hope of ever seeing the majors, I'd rather keep him.

Red Leader
07-18-2005, 03:16 PM
As I stated in another thread, I think they've actually held onto him too long already.

He should have been moved around July 1st.

Jpup
07-18-2005, 04:18 PM
As I stated in another thread, I think they've actually held onto him too long already.

He should have been moved around July 1st.

I think the Twins want him worse than anyone realizes. They are just playing the game, IMO. From everything that I have read for the past month, it sure seems that way. They need a 3rd baseman, they need a right handed bat, they will trade for him. DanO might have to concede some, but it will get done. The Twins went from saying they were interested, to not interested, to saying the Reds were asking too much. We'll see what happens, but I think the Reds get a decent pitching prospect for him.

San Diego is still interested as well. One thing that did hurt Randa's stock was LA falling too far out.

Phhhl
07-18-2005, 04:28 PM
DanO doesn't say much on his weekly segment with Lance, but last week he did indicate that there was virtually no chance that Randa would be returning to the Reds next season. Lance said something to the effect of... "would it be putting the cart before the horse to envision Randa finishing the season and re-signing with the Reds for 2006?" To which, our esteemed gm replied (uncharacteristicaly direct) "Yes, that would be putting the cart before the horse (ha ha)." He then went on to say that Randa has been everything the club envisioned and more, a great citizen and mentor... blah blah blah... But, that the club has never viewed him as any more than a one year bridge between Edwin and third base.

So, this thread would seem to be a non-issue unless DanO was flat-out lying.

OSURedLeg
07-18-2005, 04:31 PM
I take DanO to be many things (almost all negative), but I don't take him for a liar. He might be incompetent, but all indications of his character are solid. So if he makes a direct statement like that, I'm willing to believe Randa is pretty much out of here.

wheels
07-18-2005, 06:05 PM
I predict that Randa will be a Padre.

I've just got to believe that the Pads want to go into a playoff series with a better option than Sean Burroughs manning the hot corner.

Here's some names of interest, and I've just given them a glance, so take these with a grain of salt:

Michael Ekstrom: Individual Stats (Pitching) 22, A, RHP
W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO
11 3 3.26 19 19 1 1 0 113.1 107 46 41 5 27 75


Clayton Hamilton: Individual Stats (Pitching) 23yrs Old, A, RHP
W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO
9 6 3.05 19 19 0 0 0 115.0 98 44 39 9 33 84

I like both of these A ballers. They're 22 and 23 respectively....Is that too old for Fort Wayne? It seems like they have alot of players at that age, but the good numbers could have something to do with age. San Diego's churned out some very impressive young pitchers over the past few years, so it might be wise to target both of these guys. They probably wouldn't deal 'em both so I'd also target a position player as well:


Paul McAnulty: Individual Stats (Batting)
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
Mobile BayBears 74 282 37 80 17 2 10 41 131 28 65 5 2 .357 .465 .284
San Diego Padres 10 9 1 2 0 0 0 0 2 1 2 0 0 .300 .222 .222

McAnulty's the main guy I'd be asking for. He's even played with the big club this year already.

So I'd ask for McAnulty, and one of Hamilton and Ekstrom.

I think that would be a decent haul for Randa.

Jpup
07-19-2005, 12:26 AM
Padres' system lacks trade bait

By: JOHN MAFFEI - Staff Writer

Jack McKeon had a theory when he was general manager of the Padres.

A farm system doesn't have to produce talent for the big-league club to be considered a success if it can supply the players needed to complete a trade that helps the big club.

The Padres' current GM, Kevin Towers, put that theory in action before the 1998 season when he traded up-and-coming first baseman Derrek Lee to the Florida Marlins for ace pitcher Kevin Brown.

Brown helped the Padres to the World Series. Lee now is putting up Triple Crown numbers with the Chicago Cubs.

This season, the Padres are in need of another strong starting pitcher to help in the pennant race, but there is no Lee in the system. The Padres have no five-star, can't-miss prospects.

At best, there are a few players who could be the final piece of a blockbuster trade.

Triple-A Portland second baseman Josh Barfield is the only Padres minor-leaguer among Baseball America's top 100 prospects. He entered Sunday hitting .278 with eight homers and 36 RBIs. Most scouts believe he will be a serviceable major-league player.

Portland first baseman Tagg Bozied has major-league power but has been hurt each of the past two seasons, killing his trade value.

Portland outfielder Jon Knott is third in the Pacific Coast League in home runs with 19 but has been passed over for promotion three times this season when the Padres needed help.

Outfielder Ben Johnson and first baseman/outfielder Paul McAnulty showed promise in their stints with the big club this season. Neither, however, would bring a big-time starting pitcher back in a trade.

Portland starting pitchers Justin Germano, Chris Oxspring and Clay Hensley have major-league ability. Any one of the three could be part of a package in a trade. None could be the main part.

In fairness to the Padres, the organization's best young players ---- Jake Peavy, Tim Stauffer, Sean Burroughs and Khalil Greene ---- already are in the big leagues. And the bulk of the organization's most-promising talents are at Single-A Lake Elsinore or below.

Catchers George Kottaras and Colt Morton, first baseman Michael Johnson and pitchers Jared Wells, Sean Thompson, Mike Ekstrom and Clay Hamilton are too young to have major trade value.

And, under baseball rules, recent high draft picks Cesar Carrillo and Cesar Ramos can't be traded for a year.

So while the Padres troll for a pitching boost, it appears unlikely the minor-league system will help the club net the right man.

Locals watch

> Single-A Stockton outfielder Danny Putnam, who starred at Rancho Bernardo High and Stanford, suffered a torn esophagus while choking on a grape in the clubhouse. He spent two days in the hospital. The injury was originally thought to be much more serious, but Putnam was expected to miss about a week. Putnam is batting .289 with 10 home runs, 17 doubles, three triples and 64 RBIs in 315 at-bats for the Oakland Athletics' club in the California League.

> Anthony Gwynn, a former Poway High and San Diego State star, singled in the first run in the Double-A All-Star Game in Mobile, Ala., as his father, Tony, watched. Gwynn plays for Double-A Huntsville in the Milwaukee Brewers' chain.

> Left-hander Cole Hamels, a former Rancho Bernardo High standout, got his first victory at Double-A Reading, striking out eight in seven innings against Binghamton. Hamels was the Philadelphia Phillies' first-round pick in 2003.

> Neil Jamison finally has an ERA. After cruising through the college season at Long Beach State without giving up an earned run ---- 29 2/3 innings over 27 games ---- the former Ramona High star has an 0.69 ERA ---- one run in 13 innings at short-season Single-A Eugene. Jamison was a sixth-round pick of the Padres in June.

Star gazing

> Portland shortstop J.J. Furmaniak went 2-for-2 and made a great diving stop in the Triple-A All-Star Game.

> Hensley threw a perfect inning in that game and struck out two. Hensley is 2-2 this season with 10 no-decisions. He ranks seventh in the Pacific Coast League with a 2.99 ERA after going seven innings Friday against Tacoma for his first win since May 30.

> McAnulty won the Home Run Derby at the Double-A All-Star Game

Around the bases

> Utility player Ben Risinger, who made a run at making the big club in the spring of 2004, was released by Portland after hitting .211 in 41 games this season.

> Portland C Lee Evans is hitless in his past 25 at-bats and is batting .028 (1-for-36). He was signed after being released by the Red Sox.

> SS Jesse Garcia, who was with the Padres earlier this season, was sent from Portland to Double-A Mobile after hitting .177 for the Beavers.

> Mobile was 22 games under .500 heading into Sunday. The team batting average was .245 and the ERA 4.34. In the field, the BayBears had made 95 errors in 88 games.

> Luis Salazar, who had three stints with the Padres, is the manager of the Gulf Coast Dodgers, Los Angeles' affiliate in the Gulf Coast League.

Contact staff writer John Maffei at (760) 740-3547 or jmaffei@nctimes.com. The minor-league report runs each Monday through the end of the minor-league season.

Ron Madden
07-19-2005, 03:44 AM
Joe Randa has done a fine job! He was signed to cover the 3rd base position in 05 untill EE could step in, IMO O'Brien made a good move signing Randa with all intentions of flipping him for younger prospects at the deadline.

I respect Joe Randa and his game but he is 36 years old.

Expect Marty,Hal, Fay, The Two Angry Girls and Furball to trash the Reds when and if Randa is traded.

Jpup
07-19-2005, 04:15 AM
Joe Randa has done a fine job! He was signed to cover the 3rd base position in 05 untill EE could step in, IMO O'Brien made a good move signing Randa with all intentions of flipping him for younger prospects at the deadline.

I respect Joe Randa and his game but he is 36 years old.

Expect Marty,Hal, Fay, The Two Angry Girls and Furball to trash the Reds when and if Randa is traded.

when? not if. :thumbup:

Phhhl
07-19-2005, 09:21 AM
I wonder if they Padres would part with Stauffer if the Reds packaged Milton and Randa and absorbed some of Milton's contract? I have seen Stauffer pitch four or five times now, and he has dynamite stuff. He is just having difficulty with command, specifically when pitching from the stretch. He tends to throw some fat strikes with runners on base, but I don't know if the Pads can afford to let him iron that out this year in the big leagues. San Diego doesn't have a lefty in their rotation and it is a big ballpark that Milton could have some success in. I am sure San Diego doesn't necessarily want to deal him, but it could provide them the missing pieces they need to win now. IMO, teams vastly overvalue some pitching prospects. Stauffer has tremendous upside, but that deal would look tempting to me from their side.

Jpup
07-19-2005, 11:36 AM
I wonder if they Padres would part with Stauffer if the Reds packaged Milton and Randa and absorbed some of Milton's contract? I have seen Stauffer pitch four or five times now, and he has dynamite stuff. He is just having difficulty with command, specifically when pitching from the stretch. He tends to throw some fat strikes with runners on base, but I don't know if the Pads can afford to let him iron that out this year in the big leagues. San Diego doesn't have a lefty in their rotation and it is a big ballpark that Milton could have some success in. I am sure San Diego doesn't necessarily want to deal him, but it could provide them the missing pieces they need to win now. IMO, teams vastly overvalue some pitching prospects. Stauffer has tremendous upside, but that deal would look tempting to me from their side.

If they will take Milton, they can have Randa as long as they pay 2/3 of Milton contract.

wheels
08-16-2006, 09:03 PM
I just thought I'd bump this one up.

Just goes to show how spouting off abotu something with nothing but subjective babble can come back to bite you.

Also, check out my prediction for a Randa trade that I totally forgot about.

Makes me feel like a big ol' smarty.

keeganbrick
08-16-2006, 09:27 PM
ok....a couple years ago the Reds traded its most productive player at the time (Guillen) to make room for Griffey and its young, budding star outfielders. The emergence of Harang has certainly helped offset the loss of a bat like Guillen however, point remains.

Randa does things that this team badly needs. He provides solid if unexceptional defense. He uses the whole field. He makes George Grande giddy with his "professional" at bats. With Casey's power loss he and Lopez have best mix of avg. and power on team. He is also pretty much immune to extended slumps. He is steady.

Additionally, for anyone who hasn't seen Encarnacion play live....let me lay a little bit of a scary comparison on you, BRANDON LARSON. Hopefully not, but they both have that short, stocky build and from what I saw Encarnacion had a long stride, swoop swing that looked to be more of that dead pull hitter stuff we see every night with 80% of the current Reds players. Again, a little Brandon Larsony..........

Hopefully, what I saw was not representative of the full Encarnacion batting tools but he didn't tear up AA pitching the past couple years and is doing something less than having a field day with AAA this year (while putting up 18 errors).

If Randa wants to play a few more years and wants to stay in Cincy, with his game there is no reason he couldn't be solid for a few more years to come. It's one thing to move along a marginal/bubble guy to make room for a "prospect" but displacing a solid producer for anything but a surething is another thing.............
:laugh: :bowrofl:
This guy > Krivsky.

GOREDSGO32
08-16-2006, 11:24 PM
LOL talk about being owned.

wheels
08-16-2006, 11:26 PM
Seriously.

Alla you newbies ought to do a search for BadFundamentals, so as to learn how NOT to post.

Johnny Footstool
08-17-2006, 11:14 AM
Someone should copy this thread and paste it on the Reds' mlb.com message board.

Team Clark
08-17-2006, 11:17 AM
Someone should copy this thread and paste it on the Reds' mlb.com message board.


Now that is a good idea...

Heath
08-17-2006, 11:23 AM
Now that is a good idea...

Or, you could "borrow" someone elses sig line.......:D


Oh, wait, I borrowed it from Kitty...oh nevermind