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cincinnati chili
06-25-2005, 11:57 PM
In case such things interest you...

Some highlights:

1. 34% of people on the board wouldn't trade away Yusmeiro Petit to get him.

2. One guy called him "less talented Dave Kingman." (How very original).

3. "I still think [Dunn] is the type of hitter who could come here and really struggle. I see Sean Casey as the better fit."

http://www.nyfansites.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=15215&start=160

Maybe if we're lucky, the guy who posted #3 is Omar Minaya.

westofyou
06-26-2005, 12:01 AM
Maybe if we're lucky, the guy who posted #3 is Omar Minaya.

Oh yeah... Somebody is getting flipped from the "Incumbent Bunch" along with Randa and any other beer league player (you should have seen RA go 1st to 3rd tonight, it was like watching time stand still)

kyred14
06-26-2005, 12:07 AM
Sounds like Reds Live, but I bet they don't have a daily thread on it.

CTA513
06-26-2005, 12:18 AM
Lets see...

Dunn
AB: 240
Runs: 50
Hits: 59
Doubles: 13
Triples: 2 (yes slow Dunn has more Triples than the speedy Beltran)
Homeruns: 20
RBIs: 39
Walks: 52
Strikeouts: 82
Stolen Bases: 3 (2 more than that speed machine Beltran)
OBP: .393 (.070 more than Beltran)
SLG: .567 )(.135 more than Beltran)
AVG: .246 (.020 less than Beltran)

Beltran
AB: 259
Runs: 31
Hits: 69
Doubles 16
Triples: 0
Homeruns: 9
RBIs: 37
Walks: 22
Strikeouts: 49
Stolen Bases: 1
OBP: .323
SLG: .432
AVG: .266


Dunn gets on base and scores more than Beltran...... which ones overpaid?

:devil:

westofyou
06-26-2005, 12:22 AM
Fun with numbers.

If the season was to end today Adam Dunn would have a lifetime ob% of .383 a Slg% of .514 104 2b's, 138 HR's and 400 walks.

In the history of the game here are the only other players under 26 to do that.



RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G OBA SLG HR 2B BB
1 Ted Williams 13.38 .481 .642 127 154 495
2 Jimmie Foxx 10.87 .435 .638 222 196 556
3 Mickey Mantle 10.20 .427 .574 207 164 670
4 Mel Ott 8.87 .412 .554 211 224 622
5 Eddie Mathews 8.22 .388 .556 222 147 561

If you knock the walks out 4 more guys get on the list


RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G OBA SLG HR 2B BB
1 Ted Williams 13.38 .481 .642 127 154 495
2 Jimmie Foxx 10.87 .435 .638 222 196 556
3 Mickey Mantle 10.20 .427 .574 207 164 670
4 Joe DiMaggio 10.11 .402 .623 168 171 260
5 Albert Pujols 9.49 .413 .624 160 189 304
6 Mel Ott 8.87 .412 .554 211 224 622
7 Willie Mays 8.29 .382 .584 152 102 285
8 Eddie Mathews 8.22 .388 .556 222 147 561
9 Frank Robinson 7.81 .384 .561 202 177 392

OnBaseMachine
06-26-2005, 12:31 AM
All of which are Hall of Famers. I'm amazed at the flak Adam Dunn receives on this board. It's truly amazing that someone as special as Dunn gets so little recognition.

People on here would have bashed Reggie Jackson and Mike Schmidt too. People can't seem to get over the strikeouts are the end of the world fetish.

great post woy.

MrCinatit
06-26-2005, 12:58 AM
aren't putting the words "Mets Board" and "dumb" in the same sentence a bit repetative :p:

Chip R
06-26-2005, 09:20 AM
Big deal. I see Reds fans saying dumb things about him all the time.

GAC
06-26-2005, 09:29 AM
Big deal. I see Reds fans saying dumb things about him all the time.

On here? Where? :lol:

RedlegJake
06-26-2005, 09:40 AM
Big deal. I see Reds fans saying dumb things about him all the time.

Agreed. There are probably a million or more fans out there who don't appreciate Dunn because they're stuck in baseball's eternal stat trap - batting average and Ks and rbi. That's why announcers and writers don't "get it" - most fans wouldn't understand. I think a lot of media really don't get the new standards like OPS and Super Linear Created Runs formulas, but I think a lot of them do but feel it's too complicated to fly for the average fan. Baseball is such an emotional experience for the spectator, and strikeouts wring those emotions. If Dunn hit just .20 points higher, and struck out 50 times less, yet walked 40 times less and hit 10 fewer homers making those changes to his swing - believe me, there are fans who would suddenly call him the new Reggie Jackson and laud his greatness. The fact that he would be a less productive player than he is now would forever escape them.

KronoRed
06-26-2005, 09:47 AM
On here? Where? :lol:
Might be easier to just point out topics not about Dunn ;)

2001MUgrad
06-26-2005, 09:51 AM
Everyone seems to like the fact Dunn has a High OB% and scores a lot of runs. If that's his game, bat him lead off the ala Bobboone.

Chip R
06-26-2005, 11:18 AM
Everyone seems to like the fact Dunn has a High OB% and scores a lot of runs. If that's his game, bat him lead off the ala Bobboone.See. :D

wheels
06-26-2005, 11:18 AM
Everyone seems to like the fact Dunn has a High OB% and scores a lot of runs. If that's his game, bat him lead off the ala Bobboone.

Good idea.

Get him more AB's.

vic715
06-26-2005, 11:49 AM
Hey Jake on base and slugging% have been around the entire 45 years Iv'e been a fan so when you add them together its not hard to understand.I 'll still look at run production when I judge a players ability.
I like Dunn but if the bases were loaded and I needed a run and it was down to Freel or Dunn I'm afraid Adam sits this one out.

Johnny Footstool
06-26-2005, 12:03 PM
I'll still look at run production when I judge a players ability.

How do you judge run production?

traderumor
06-26-2005, 12:22 PM
All of which are Hall of Famers. I'm amazed at the flak Adam Dunn receives on this board. It's truly amazing that someone as special as Dunn gets so little recognition.

People on here would have bashed Reggie Jackson and Mike Schmidt too. People can't seem to get over the strikeouts are the end of the world fetish.

great post woy.I see twice as many posts and posters defending Adam Dunn to a fault as I do folks complaining about his faults, of which he does have some. I don't get why everyone is so defensive when he is criticized. If the numbers speak for themselves, then rolling eyes anytime someone isn't ga ga over him shouldn't be necessary.

RANDY IN INDY
06-26-2005, 12:54 PM
I see twice as many posts and posters defending Adam Dunn to a fault as I do folks complaining about his faults, of which he does have some. I don't get why everyone is so defensive when he is criticized. If the numbers speak for themselves, then rolling eyes anytime someone isn't ga ga over him shouldn't be necessary. :beerme:

OnBaseMachine
06-26-2005, 01:10 PM
Adam Dunn isn't just criticized for his few weaknesses; his whole game is bashed on here. He strikeouts too much, average is too low, no sac flies. can't hit risp, too many solo homeruns, needs to swing at more bad pitches, walks too much, etc.. A lot of people don't like the guy, so they criticize him for everything.

And these same people never seem to be around when he hits two homeruns in a game, but they are the first one's on the board when he strikeouts twice in a game.

TeamBoone
06-26-2005, 01:24 PM
Adam Dunn isn't just criticized for his few weaknesses; his whole game is bashed on here. He strikeouts too much, average is too low, no sac flies. can't hit risp, too many solo homeruns, needs to swing at more bad pitches, walks too much, etc.. A lot of people don't like the guy, so they criticize him for everything.

You forgot not enough RBI. ;)

Your post is very true. Several criticize him ad nauseum without ever admitting his strengths, even going so far as to say he stinks which is just an ignorant statement (and they don't like their ignorance proven either).

westofyou
06-26-2005, 01:31 PM
I see twice as many posts and posters defending Adam Dunn to a fault as I do folks complaining about his faults, of which he does have some. I don't get why everyone is so defensive when he is criticized. If the numbers speak for themselves, then rolling eyes anytime someone isn't ga ga over him shouldn't be necessary.

You mean here on Redszone?

Maybe, but over at Redlegnation, Marcs Blog, ESPN Chat and the MLB Boards I see him beat up on daily, the sound of the Dunn bashing drowns out any complaining of pitching.

And that's just stupid as well as sad.

MWM
06-26-2005, 01:43 PM
I think most people who are defend Dunn are usually doing it in response to the same old tired arguments we've been hearing all along laid out by OBM. But I think most of realize that he definitely has holes in his game. He's not very good defensively and hasn't made much progress. I thought he would, but he hasn't. He's also the not the world's best baserunner, nor is he a very cerebral player. And as crazy as this might sound, I don't think he's always patient enough at the plate. The fact that his OB numbes are so high, yet his BA is low, coupled with watching him most of the season, it's obvious to me he's getting pitched around in a great deal of his ABs and he probably gets a little tired of not seeing anything to hit and starts swing at borderline pitches he knows he should be let go.

So yes, he's got holes in his game and most of us realize that. But some of the things getting heaped upon Adam Dunn are quite ridiculous and yes, plenty of people stand up to defend him. BUt I'd disagree that it's more defending him here on RedsZone. My view is that there's just as much criticism as there is defense, at least on Reds Live.

westofyou
06-26-2005, 01:51 PM
And as crazy as this might sound, I don't think he's always patient enough at the plate. The fact that his OB numbes are so high, yet his BA is low, coupled with watching him most of the season, it's obvious to me he's getting pitched around in a great deal of his ABs and he probably gets a little tired of not seeing anything to hit and starts swing at borderline pitches he knows he should be let go.

Yep, he's a horrible bad ball hitter and most bad ball hitters are BA driven players who don't walk alot.

That is not Dunn and never will be Dunn.

BTW Dunn was 3rd in worst BA+SLG on pitches outside of the zone in 2004 (.138) Freel was at .174 The year before Derrek Lee (the triple crown guy) had a .000.

The best?

Juan Pierre at .667 and Paul Lo Duca at .625

traderumor
06-26-2005, 04:55 PM
You mean here on Redszone?

Maybe, but over at Redlegnation, Marcs Blog, ESPN Chat and the MLB Boards I see him beat up on daily, the sound of the Dunn bashing drowns out any complaining of pitching.

And that's just stupid as well as sad.Yes, here on RZ, that was OBM's frame of reference. I guess you'd call it preaching to the choir on here. I don't frequent other boards.

kyred14
06-26-2005, 05:00 PM
Yes, here on RZ, that was OBM's frame of reference. I guess you'd call it preaching to the choir on here. I don't frequent other boards.

I don't know, 30% of Reds Live threads turn into Dunn bashing threads, or so it seems. Seems there is at least one a day on it.

Cedric
06-26-2005, 07:16 PM
The most overplayed thing on this site is rolling eyes on every negative Dunn post. Or possibly every game thread where he get's a homer there being thirty five thousand sarcastic remarks about how "a sac fly would have been better there hahahaha."
The guy is great and most people that know baseball agree.

Redsland
06-26-2005, 11:33 PM
You forgot not enough RBI. ;)
Marty?

I kid, I kid.

But seriously, if Dunn hit third every day, as he should, his counting stats would be great, he'd get pitched around less often, and people could see clear as day what a special player he is.

He could be the face of the game. Instead he hits sixth. Or seventh. When no body's on base, and no body's on deck.

Terry
06-27-2005, 01:36 AM
I see twice as many posts and posters defending Adam Dunn to a fault as I do folks complaining about his faults, of which he does have some. I don't get why everyone is so defensive when he is criticized. If the numbers speak for themselves, then rolling eyes anytime someone isn't ga ga over him shouldn't be necessary.

No kidding. And the worst of those are guys like WOY and Steel, who are totally obsessed with trying to convince others that Adam Dunn belongs in the same category as Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and other HOFers of that caliber. At this point Dunn needs to start putting up numbers that might occasionally get him into an all-star game before he gets mentioned as a HOF type player. To read some of these posts you'd think Dunn was a leadoff hitter who hits a ton of home runs. But what he really is is a clean-up type power hitter who hits for a low average, and an even lower average when it counts -- w/RISP. Until he starts driving in more runs he'll never be fully accepted by Reds fans IMO.

Terry
06-27-2005, 01:40 AM
But I'd disagree that it's more defending him here on RedsZone. My view is that there's just as much criticism as there is defense.

And anytime opinions are that evenly split -- on any topic -- you can be pretty certain both sides have a good argument.

Jpup
06-27-2005, 01:52 AM
No kidding. And the worst of those are guys like WOY and Steel, who are totally obsessed with trying to convince others that Adam Dunn belongs in the same category as Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and other HOFers of that caliber. At this point Dunn needs to start putting up numbers that might occasionally get him into an all-star game before he gets mentioned as a HOF type player. To read some of these posts you'd think Dunn was a leadoff hitter who hits a ton of home runs. But what he really is is a clean-up type power hitter who hits for a low average, and an even lower average when it counts -- w/RISP. Until he starts driving in more runs he'll never be fully accepted by Reds fans IMO.

with him leading off innings and hitting with no one on base, it's hard to drive in runs. average means nothing.

pedro
06-27-2005, 01:52 AM
No kidding. And the worst of those are guys like WOY and Steel, who are totally obsessed with trying to convince others that Adam Dunn belongs in the same category as Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and other HOFers of that caliber. At this point Dunn needs to start putting up numbers that might occasionally get him into an all-star game before he gets mentioned as a HOF type player. To read some of these posts you'd think Dunn was a leadoff hitter who hits a ton of home runs. But what he really is is a clean-up type power hitter who hits for a low average, and an even lower average when it counts -- w/RISP. Until he starts driving in more runs he'll never be fully accepted by Reds fans IMO.

Yeah, WOY was at my house today and he wouldn't stop talking about Dunn. He even had a signed copy of "Tiger Beat" with him with Dunn on the cover. Takes it everywhere he goes and shows it to everybody. I don't have the heart to tell him that nobody cares and that Dunn strikes out too much.

And I know for a fact that Steel is getting ready to publish a book of poety about Dunn.

Those guys are wack.

Ron Madden
06-27-2005, 01:59 AM
The sad thing is that the wrong side of this argument is reinforced by the Reds PBP announcers, radio sportstalk host and some beatwriters who should all know better.

I quess it's easier to just look at ba, hr and rbi. and ignore other stats. :(

Jpup
06-27-2005, 04:08 AM
Would you guys go for Carlos Beltran for Adam Dunn? :runaway:

RosieRed
06-27-2005, 05:27 AM
No kidding. And the worst of those are guys like WOY and Steel, who are totally obsessed with trying to convince others that Adam Dunn belongs in the same category as Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and other HOFers of that caliber. At this point Dunn needs to start putting up numbers that might occasionally get him into an all-star game before he gets mentioned as a HOF type player. To read some of these posts you'd think Dunn was a leadoff hitter who hits a ton of home runs. But what he really is is a clean-up type power hitter who hits for a low average, and an even lower average when it counts -- w/RISP. Until he starts driving in more runs he'll never be fully accepted by Reds fans IMO.

I'm sorry, but I really find this laughable.

1. I highly doubt WOY and Steel are "obsessed" with convincing others that Dunn is Mantle. What happens, IMO, is that so many people put forth the same arguments against Dunn (Ks, BA w/RISP, BA in general, etc.) that other people (such as WOY and Steel) are constantly having to repeat themselves as to why Dunn IS a good offensive player. I've even found myself doing it (such as right now), because it is hard for me to understand how, if someone has looked at Dunn's numbers, that person can then still think Dunn is bad.

2. Dunn has already put up numbers required to occasionally go to an All-Star game. He's been once already. Last year he had one of the best offensive seasons EVER by a Reds player: 80+ extra base hits; 100+ runs scored; 100+ RBI; 100+ walks. Just so I'm clear on that: What we saw Dunn do last year has only ever been done by a handful of Reds in the entire history of the organization. And he's only 25 years old.

3. It's darn well near impossible for Dunn to be any type of clean-up hitter, good or bad, when his manager bats him 6th and 7th more times than not. As it is now, Dunn has lead off more innings than anyone on this team except Ryan Freel. So what you suggest about people thinking he's a lead-off hitter who hits a lot of home runs has a little more truth to it than you think.

4. It's been addressed a gazillion times on here already, but just for fun, let's take another look at Dunn's number "when it counts." This is this year:

Situation; BA; OBP; SLG; OPS
Runners on: .256/.481/.567/1.048
Runners ISP: .196/.461/.451/.912
Runners ISP, 2 outs: .176/.457/.348/.805
Close and late: .229/.372/.514/.886

Overall: .246/.391/.566/.957

Yes, his BA is low. But look at his OBP in those situations. When Dunn comes up with runners on base, he himself gets on base 48% of the time. That is 48% of his ABs with runners on in which he does not make an out. That's pretty fantastic.

As for driving in more runs: Sure, it would be nice. But he cannot help the following things: batting low in the lineup; not having runners on base to drive in; and getting pitched around when there are actually runners on base in front of him. How exactly should he drive more runs in, given the above?

There are certainly aspects of Dunn's game worth criticizing. Most of them have nothing to do with offense, yet that's what we hear the most about.

Jpup
06-27-2005, 05:36 AM
nice post. very well said. :thumbup:

Reds Nd2
06-27-2005, 07:16 AM
There are certainly aspects of Dunn's game worth criticizing. Most of them have nothing to do with offense, yet that's what we hear the most about.

Very nicely put. :clap:

Redsland
06-27-2005, 09:47 AM
At this point Dunn needs to start putting up numbers that might occasionally get him into an all-star game before he gets mentioned as a HOF type player.
2001 Futures Game
2002 All-Star Game

Just sayin'.

Johnny Footstool
06-27-2005, 09:49 AM
Nice post, Rosie!

Prepare to be labeled an "Adam Dunn Defender."

Chip R
06-27-2005, 10:02 AM
2001 Futures Game
2002 All-Star Game

Just sayin'.
Quit confusing them with the facts.

westofyou
06-27-2005, 10:30 AM
No kidding. And the worst of those are guys like WOY and Steel, who are totally obsessed with trying to convince others that Adam Dunn belongs in the same category as Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and other HOFers of that caliber. At this point Dunn needs to start putting up numbers that might occasionally get him into an all-star game before he gets mentioned as a HOF type player.

One man's obsession is another man's knowledge. I know what you think, you what I think.

I just happen to think I'm right and you're wrong.

Of course I didn't get all rightous and call out your opinion on the board without facts or some stats to back it up.

Which by the way currently place Dunn in that group.(At his age Terry... pull back and acknowledge that not the players whole career is being compared)

But thanks for thinking of me.

KronoRed
06-27-2005, 10:32 AM
Prepare to be labeled an "Adam Dunn Defender."

Adam Dunn Defenders get cool hats

Just sayin.

Johnny Footstool
06-27-2005, 11:10 AM
Adam Dunn Defenders get cool hats

Mine has a tinted visor, two-way radio, and a heads-up display that shows Dunn's stats.

OnBaseMachine
06-27-2005, 11:12 AM
Mine

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~royalty/pix/gyanendra.jpg

Puffy
06-27-2005, 11:14 AM
Mine has a tinted visor, two-way radio, and a heads-up display that shows Dunn's stats.

Mine has two cup holders for beers.

Reds Nd2
06-27-2005, 11:16 AM
Mine

I can safely say that I haven't worn anything that hideous looking since I was in grade school band. :laugh:

smith288
06-27-2005, 11:16 AM
Mine...

Chip R
06-27-2005, 11:20 AM
Mine...

http://image07.webshots.com/7/6/96/92/86969692DIZUMo_ph.jpgWow! Where can I get a red x for a hat? ;)

smith288
06-27-2005, 11:24 AM
Its sooo cool, only cool people can view past the red x. Sorry Chip...
:cool:

KronoRed
06-27-2005, 11:34 AM
Mines the best
http://www.dizpins.com/archives/images/2004junepics/dl_ears_hat_061004.jpg

Red Leader
06-27-2005, 12:39 PM
Mine says " #1 fan", and guess which finger is used to portray the #1 ;)

Johnny Footstool
06-27-2005, 12:51 PM
Mine has two cup holders for beers.

Sweet! I have to get that attachment for mine.

Terry
06-27-2005, 05:40 PM
2001 Futures Game
2002 All-Star Game

Just sayin'.

So we're counting the future's game now? LOL ... thanks for helping my argument.

I'm still on the Dunn bandwagon, though not as firmly entrenched as I once was. I don't want to see him traded yet, but I do want him to become the player we all hoped he'd be. And that includes those of you who think he can do no wrong.

Joseph
06-27-2005, 05:47 PM
This Adam Dunn you all speak of....is he any good?

KronoRed
06-27-2005, 05:56 PM
This Adam Dunn you all speak of....is he any good?
Best player in Cincinnati

Terry
06-27-2005, 06:02 PM
Runners ISP: .196
Runners ISP, 2 outs: .176
Close and late: .229

Again, thanks for making my point.

The worst thing I've said about him is I wish he'd walk less and drive in more runs. But on this site that's apparently considered bashing. I've posted on two different Adam Dunn threads since I returned to this site and I've been docked something like 70 reputation points over those comments; and the worst thing I said was I prefer RBI's over BB's?? Wow. And now I get docked by Steel, for supposedly "calling him out". LOL ... this is the same guy who use to send me private messages constantly, even threatening me because we have different opinions. If this is what this site has become, and apparently it has, then that's pretty sad. Because this use to be the best Reds site on the internet.

Believe me, I won't comment on Dunn anymore. :eek:

OnBaseMachine
06-27-2005, 06:09 PM
So we're counting the future's game now? LOL ... thanks for helping my argument.

I'm still on the Dunn bandwagon, though not as firmly entrenched as I once was. I don't want to see him traded yet, but I do want him to become the player we all hoped he'd be. And that includes those of you who think he can do no wrong.

Sigh. Adam Dunn is on a list with nine other Hall of Famers, and we still have people complaining about him!

woy posted this on page 1.


RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G OBA SLG HR 2B BB
1 Ted Williams 13.38 .481 .642 127 154 495
2 Jimmie Foxx 10.87 .435 .638 222 196 556
3 Mickey Mantle 10.20 .427 .574 207 164 670
4 Joe DiMaggio 10.11 .402 .623 168 171 260
5 Albert Pujols 9.49 .413 .624 160 189 304
6 Mel Ott 8.87 .412 .554 211 224 622
7 Willie Mays 8.29 .382 .584 152 102 285
8 Eddie Mathews 8.22 .388 .556 222 147 561
9 Frank Robinson 7.81 .384 .561 202 177 392

There are 9 bazillion problems with this organization...Adam Dunn is least of our worries.

BoydsOfSummer
06-27-2005, 06:11 PM
I just wish he didn't play LF with Kalvoski-like similarities.

cincyinco
06-27-2005, 06:22 PM
I'm sorry, but I really find this laughable.

There are certainly aspects of Dunn's game worth criticizing. Most of them have nothing to do with offense, yet that's what we hear the most about.


:beerme:

I wish I could give you rep points for this post.. bravo!

:clap:

cincyinco
06-27-2005, 06:28 PM
Again, thanks for making my point.

The worst thing I've said about him is I wish he'd walk less and drive in more runs. But on this site that's apparently considered bashing. I've posted on two different Adam Dunn threads since I returned to this site and I've been docked something like 70 reputation points over those comments; and the worst thing I said was I prefer RBI's over BB's?? Wow. And now I get docked by Steel, for supposedly "calling him out". LOL ... this is the same guy who use to send me private messages constantly, even threatening me because we have different opinions. If this is what this site has become, and apparently it has, then that's pretty sad. Because this use to be the best Reds site on the internet.

Believe me, I won't comment on Dunn anymore. :eek:

:bang:

You are sitting here arguing production Terry, but you're looking at Batting average. Batting average is certainly not a good indication of production. Look at OPS. A much more telling stat. If you're getting on base, you're producing. And as Rosie pointed out, he gets on base about what.. 48% of the time? When you get on base, that creates the opportunity for a run. Bottom line, look at OPB+SLG, or OPS as a better indication of how well Dunn produces. You can also look at Runs Created. Dunn has about a .950OPS. Tell me, how many 25 year olds have put up that kind of OPS over the course of a year? Theres not many.


Look, I'm no stat head man, but I try to have a basic understanding of them. Batting average is not a good indication of overall production. I'm trying to help you out. I dont think anyone is critizing you for having a different opinion on Dunn. I think its something else. Why dont you re-read the Rosie's post.

forfreelin04
06-27-2005, 06:36 PM
Certainly batting average is not a good stat to critque a hitter like Dunn. However, it is a good stat to critique a singles hitter like a Sean Casey. I would prefer to critique Dunn by OPS rather than OBP. Since it combines both his ability to get on base with his ability to hit for extra bases. However, it's sad that this board has become a OBP/OPS/Sabermetrics gala while traditonalist are docked reputation points for leaning towards AVG and RBI's. I've seen both arguements and tried to argue for the traditionalist POV but came up with a clearer picture. They both are important. One is not necessarily better than the other. A person who is big into stats may not watch the game as closely as a traditonalist, but a traditinalist might not pay attention to the new stats that can prove beneficial in critiquing a player. Both are necessary IMO

wheels
06-27-2005, 06:42 PM
A person who is big into stats may not watch the game as closely as a traditonalist


Ummm....Yeah.

I'm gonna, kinda....

Haveta....

Disagree with you on this one.

cincyinco
06-27-2005, 06:43 PM
Certainly batting average is not a good stat to critque a hitter like Dunn. However, it is a good stat to critique a singles hitter like a Sean Casey. I would prefer to critique Dunn by OPS rather than OBP. Since it combines both his ability to get on base with his ability to hit for extra bases. However, it's sad that this board has become a OBP/OPS/Sabermetrics gala while traditonalist are docked reputation points for leaning towards AVG and RBI's. I've seen both arguements and tried to argue for the traditionalist POV but came up with a clearer picture. They both are important. One is not necessarily better than the other. A person who is big into stats may not watch the game as closely as a traditonalist, but a traditinalist might not pay attention to the new stats that can prove beneficial in critiquing a player. Both are necessary IMO

I agree that both are necessary, but there is more to the entire picture than batting average. And if you're talking about production, batting average does not tell you how much you've produced does it? It just tells you how many times you've averaged a hit in how many AB's. Not whether the run socred, someone got on base, if there was an extra base hit.. etc.

But I do agree that avg and RBI's are important. You need to take the whole picture in, but have try to have an understanding of what everything means.

Raisor
06-27-2005, 07:00 PM
. A person who is big into stats may not watch the game as closely as a traditonalist,

what a bunch of crap.

I'm really tired of hearing I don't watch enough games.

I must not have really spent that 150 bucks for the Season Ticket Package.

forfreelin04
06-27-2005, 07:03 PM
Ummm....Yeah.

I'm gonna, kinda....

Haveta....

Disagree with you on this one.

I did the book for a college baseball team for an entire season. Believe me when your head is in the stat book your head is not in the game.

So until ya ya........

Know what its like.............

Probably best not to uhhhh comment.

pedro
06-27-2005, 07:05 PM
I did the book for a college baseball team for an entire season. Believe me when your head is in the stat book your head is not in the game.

So until ya ya........

Know what its like.............

Probably best not to uhhhh comment.

Ok, so you think the "stat guys" are at home charting the games?

So until ya...

Know what it's like....

Probably really best not to uhhhh comment.

Raisor
06-27-2005, 07:07 PM
Ok, so you think the "stat guys" are at home charting the games?

.

Me, I'm busy sharpening my slide rule during games.

forfreelin04
06-27-2005, 07:08 PM
Hey maybe your different Rasior. Hats off to you. I can't do both at once. When my mind is concentrating on making sure I jot down every strike ball and ball in play, I have a hard time thinking crtically about what just happened or hasn't yet.

pedro
06-27-2005, 07:09 PM
Me, I'm busy sharpening my slide rule during games.

The better to poke "traditionalists" with my pretty. :laugh:

http://members.shaw.ca/bbogdan/OZ/witch.jpg

pedro
06-27-2005, 07:13 PM
Hey maybe your different Rasior. Hats off to you. I can't do both at once. When my mind is concentrating on making sure I jot down every strike ball and ball in play, I have a hard time thinking crtically about what just happened or hasn't yet.

Why do you assume that people who favor SABR methods are analyzing stats during the games?

forfreelin04
06-27-2005, 07:14 PM
Sorry if I "raised" some proverbial pencils from the stat sheet. I would just like to see some the so called "stat guys" raise some details behind their stats. In other words, I would like yous guys to get into a player's head instead of a player's stat line.

Raisor
06-27-2005, 07:14 PM
Hey maybe your different Rasior. Hats off to you. I can't do both at once. When my mind is concentrating on making sure I jot down every strike ball and ball in play, I have a hard time thinking crtically about what just happened or hasn't yet.


I haven't scored a game in years.

I'm not exactly sure what you think a "stat head" is...

Terry
06-27-2005, 07:15 PM
For the record, I consider myself a traditionalist and a stat freak. This isn't a case of someone ignoring OPS for the sake of argument. Like Steve Phillips said in the other thread, I'd like to see Adam Dunn adjust his hitting approach, so he's swinging more and driving in more runs, instead of looking at so many pitches. Look at his numbers for that hot period he had last year in late July/early August. That's the type of hitter he can be, and the type of hitter he will be when he takes that kind of approach to hitting.

RosieRed
06-27-2005, 07:15 PM
Again, thanks for making my point.

The worst thing I've said about him is I wish he'd walk less and drive in more runs. But on this site that's apparently considered bashing. I've posted on two different Adam Dunn threads since I returned to this site and I've been docked something like 70 reputation points over those comments; and the worst thing I said was I prefer RBI's over BB's?? Wow. And now I get docked by Steel, for supposedly "calling him out". LOL ... this is the same guy who use to send me private messages constantly, even threatening me because we have different opinions. If this is what this site has become, and apparently it has, then that's pretty sad. Because this use to be the best Reds site on the internet.

Believe me, I won't comment on Dunn anymore. :eek:

If you looked at what I posted, saw those batting average numbers and thought "see, I was right," then you totally missed the point of my post. I agreed with you that his BA was low in those situations. My point was that you absolutely have to look beyond BA in order to understand what Dunn offers. You can ignore the numbers all you want, but doing so doesn't change the numbers.

Why do you want Dunn to walk less? What would that accomplish?

You also offer no response to what I said about RBI: How do you suggest Dunn go about getting more RBI? It's not as simple as "hit the ball more" or "put the ball in play" or "don't walk as much". Example: Sean Casey, who has a .320 BA, is definitely not prone to Ks, and has been batting third in the lineup most of the year, has fewer RBI than Dunn. RBI is a team dependent stat. When Dunn comes up to bat with no one on base, the only person he can drive in is himself.

You shouldn't feel like you can't comment on Dunn or give your opinion on him or anything else. It would just be nice if there were some explanation behind your views.

Chip R
06-27-2005, 07:16 PM
I did the book for a college baseball team for an entire season. Believe me when your head is in the stat book your head is not in the game.
It better be or else your stats aren't going to be very accurate.

Raisor
06-27-2005, 07:20 PM
It better be or else your stats aren't going to be very accurate.


That's why I love espn.com. They do my game scoring for me :thumbup:

forfreelin04
06-27-2005, 07:20 PM
Your right statheads are not sitting there writing things down. That's fine. Why sit there and count stats in a game when the lovely computer is able to do it for you? Sorry if I prefer to lean toward the quesiton "how" instead of "what" happened.

Chip R
06-27-2005, 07:22 PM
That's why I love espn.com. They do my game scoring for me :thumbup:I'm glad you qualified that with "game" or else I would have thought you were going to take Stuart Scott on your honeymoon with you. :)

pedro
06-27-2005, 07:24 PM
I'm glad you qualified that with "game" or else I would have thought you were going to take Stuart Scott on your honeymoon with you. :)

I think if Stuart Scott shows up at Raisor's honeynoon someone is going to get a detached cornea and this time it might not be Stuart Scott.

Raisor
06-27-2005, 07:39 PM
Your right statheads are not sitting there writing things down. That's fine. Why sit there and count stats in a game when the lovely computer is able to do it for you? Sorry if I prefer to lean toward the quesiton "how" instead of "what" happened.


I'm very confused now.

Raisor
06-27-2005, 07:41 PM
I think if Stuart Scott shows up at Raisor's honeynoon someone is going to get a detached cornea and this time it might not be Stuart Scott.


I'm thinking about calling off the wedding. Amanda told me yesterday that if I look at Redszone even once during the honeymoon, bad things will happen.

Is Redszone > Wedded Bliss?

KronoRed
06-27-2005, 07:43 PM
If you choose RZ over a honeymoon then you need help...really :help:



;)

Steve4192
06-27-2005, 08:27 PM
A person who is big into stats may not watch the game as closely as a traditonalist,
What a crock.

The vast majority of stats guys get into stats in order to give them something baseball-related to do when there are no games being played. When they are at a game they every bit the beer swillin', peanut eatin', moundball playin' SOB as any 'traditional' fan. They don't break out the sliderules and spreadsheets until AFTER the game.

LvJ
06-27-2005, 08:55 PM
:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :ughmamoru :bowrofl: :ughmamoru Comparing Burnitz to Dunn.

Ron Madden
06-27-2005, 09:44 PM
Adam Dunn isn't just criticized for his few weaknesses; his whole game is bashed on here. He strikeouts too much, average is too low, no sac flies. can't hit risp, too many solo homeruns, needs to swing at more bad pitches, walks too much, etc.. A lot of people don't like the guy, so they criticize him for everything.

And these same people never seem to be around when he hits two homeruns in a game, but they are the first one's on the board when he strikeouts twice in a game.

I agree, I visited Reds fan forum on Reds.com today. (WOW) You should read some of the things posters on that board say about Dunn. :confused:

Thak goodness for RedsZone :thumbup:

wheels
06-27-2005, 11:27 PM
What a crock.

The vast majority of stats guys get into stats in order to give them something baseball-related to do when there are no games being played. When they are at a game they every bit the beer swillin', peanut eatin', moundball playin' SOB as any 'traditional' fan. They don't break out the sliderules and spreadsheets until AFTER the game.

Thank you Steve.

That would sum me up perfectly.