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redsfan30
07-03-2005, 01:37 PM
Starting Lineups

No. Houston Cincinnati
1 Willy Taveras, CF Felipe Lopez, SS
2 Chris Burke, LF Adam Dunn, LF
3 Lance Berkman, 1B Ken Griffey Jr., CF
4 Morgan Ensberg, 3B Sean Casey, 1B
5 Jason Lane, RF Joe Randa, 3B
6 Adam Everett, SS Rich Aurilia, 2B
7 Eric Bruntlett, 2B Jacob Cruz, RF
8 Brad Ausmus, C Javier Valentin, C
9 Roger Clemens, P Brandon Claussen, P

pahster
07-03-2005, 01:45 PM
Mmmmm... Casey's .406 Slg in the 4-hole sure looks good. Not that I think Randa is an ideal cleanup hitter, but his OPS is over 100 points higher than Casey's. At least Dunn is hitting 2nd, though.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 01:47 PM
Why move Griffey out of the 4 spot? It's been working pretty well...

Pena sits too....Even though he had a good day yesterday, it is the Rocket man

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 01:50 PM
Narron puts together lineups like he's trying to solve a Rubick's cube.

He gets all the colors to align on one side of the puzzle, but then has them screwed up on another.

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 01:52 PM
Isn't this 7-3 instead of 7-2-05. Can you edit your thread redsfan?

Patrick Bateman
07-03-2005, 01:55 PM
I would suggest that Casey can probably hit a tough pitcher like Clemens better than most of our hitters. Both Griffey and Casey can hit good pitcher's pitches better than most of the other Reds.

And with the Astros having no lefty in the pen, we don't have to be worried about stacking our lefties. Even though RH hitters seem to fare better against Clemens than LH hitters.

pahster
07-03-2005, 01:56 PM
I would suggest that Casey can probably hit a tough pitcher like Clemens better than most of our hitters. Both Griffey and Casey can hit good pitcher's pitches better than most of the other Reds.


Hasn't Randa hit Clemens pretty well this year, though?

CTA513
07-03-2005, 01:59 PM
Hasn't Randa hit Clemens pretty well this year, though?

Im not sure exactly how many hits he has, but I know that Randa has hit 2 of the only 5 homeruns Clemens has given up this year.

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2005, 02:03 PM
Dunn, Griffey, and Randa have all hit Clemens well.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bvsp?pitcherId=1427&teamId=17

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:04 PM
To bad Freels on the DL, he is 5 for 13 against Clemens.

pahster
07-03-2005, 02:05 PM
According to ESPN:
Randa vs Clemens (I assume for his career)
38 AB
11 hits
1 3B
3 HR
1 BB
10 K
.289/.300/.579/.879

Casey's OPS is .552 against Clemens, although thats in only 14 abs.

redsfan30
07-03-2005, 02:14 PM
Isn't this 7-3 instead of 7-2-05. Can you edit your thread redsfan?
Yeah, I guess this is the 3rd isn't it?

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 02:16 PM
All day! :D
I can tell, because my neighbors' fireworks are getting more numerous as the day goes on!

Caveat Emperor
07-03-2005, 02:16 PM
I'd imagine Narron is loading up on the lefties due to the fact that the Astros now have no lefthanders in their bullpen after DFA'ing John Franco.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:17 PM
1st pitch of the game is a strike.

:)

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:17 PM
Taveras with an infield hit.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:19 PM
Burke flies out. 1 out.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:20 PM
Berkman grounds in to a double play. 3 outs.

:)

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 02:20 PM
pahster, I just clicked back into chat as you were leaving. Come back in and bring some of these guys with ya!
Chats open folks, the beer is cold, and its a great day to talk some baseball!

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:24 PM
Lopez flies out. 1 out.

Marty made it seem like it was a homer.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 02:24 PM
Lopez flies out. 1 out.

Marty made it seem like it was a homer.



It's called suspense :)

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:25 PM
Dunn walks. :)

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 02:26 PM
Yahoo says it was DEEP right center.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:27 PM
Dunn picked off.... 2 outs.

:/

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:28 PM
Griffey grounds out. 3 outs.

0-0 after the 1st inning.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:31 PM
Ensberg walks.

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 02:31 PM
While it's a commercial break b/w innings: There's free Food and Drinks in Chat today fellow Zoners. And we've fired up the grills for a little 4th of July warmup! Come on in and hang out with some good people and talk some Reds baseball!

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:32 PM
Lane pops out. 1 out.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 02:32 PM
Dunn picked off.... 2 outs.

:/

Dunn looked safe getting back and the FSN Houston guys never showed a good replay.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:34 PM
Everett reaches on error by Randa.

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 02:36 PM
trade the bum! LOL, jk

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:36 PM
Bruntlett strikes out. 2 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:40 PM
Ausmus singles, 1 run scores.

Booo! this inning should have been over!

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:40 PM
Claussen has to throw way to many pitches because of that error... it will probably be a bullpen day again.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:43 PM
Wild pitch, 1 run scores.

2-0 Astros.... and there facing Clemens :/

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:44 PM
Clemens flies out. 3 outs.

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2005, 02:44 PM
Claussen threw an additional 12 pitches because of the error.

Kc61
07-03-2005, 02:48 PM
That half inning shows the Reds problem. Three bad plays. Randa's error. Valentin's misplay. And Griffey didn't even try for the bloop single which, years ago, he would have undoubtedly caught.

Griffey should be playing a corner outfield position.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:49 PM
Casey grounds out. 1 out.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 02:49 PM
That "single" was painfull Griff, simply painfull. If WMP was a better fielder, I would rather see him in CF, but the Reds need to upgrade that spot next year.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:50 PM
Randa singles.

Kc61
07-03-2005, 02:52 PM
That "single" was painfull Griff, simply painfull. If WMP was a better fielder, I would rather see him in CF, but the Reds need to upgrade that spot next year.

As I watch the team I have come to realize what a terrible defensive outfield they have. The only guy who can move out there is Pena, who is defensively challenged. Dunn can't run and Griffey hardly tries to run.

For all that we like about the outfield's good offense, they really hurt the team defensively. That's one reason not to get too upset if some of these guys get traded.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:53 PM
Aurilia strikes out. 2 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:54 PM
Cruz grounds out. 3 outs.

2-0 Astros after 2 innings.

pedro
07-03-2005, 02:55 PM
As I watch the team I have come to realize what a terrible defensive outfield they have. The only guy who can move out there is Pena, who is defensively challenged. Dunn can't run and Griffey hardly tries to run.

For all that we like about the outfield's good offense, they really hurt the team defensively. That's one reason not to get too upset if some of these guys get traded.

Dunn can run. he just takes bad routes to the ball.

I agree though that the OF defense is pathetic.

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 02:57 PM
Some of you guys/gals come and join us in chat. Pahster's probably getting tired of talking only to me! I'll buy you a round as a welcome! :D

CTA513
07-03-2005, 02:58 PM
Taveras reaches on fielding error by Lopez.

there should be fielding practice right after the game, then run 15 laps around the field.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 03:00 PM
Claussen is taking himself out of the game due to lack of caring behind the mound(and above it).

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:00 PM
Burke grounds out, Taveras to 2nd. 1 out.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 03:01 PM
Taveras reaches on fielding error by Lopez.

there should be fielding practice right after the game, then run 15 laps around the field.

Lopez tried to make a bare handed grab and the ball took a spinning hop on him. The play at first would have been close even if he makes the grab.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:04 PM
Berkman lines out. 2 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:07 PM
Ensberg strikes out. 3 outs.

Kc61
07-03-2005, 03:08 PM
Lopez tried to make a bare handed grab and the ball took a spinning hop on him. The play at first would have been close even if he makes the grab.

Looked to me that Lopez overran the ball. Had to make a bare hand play because he went past the ball moving left.

If you just focus on the Reds defense you start to understand their record. Can't blame the pitching the way Claussen is going today, which is excellent.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:11 PM
Valentin flies out. 1 out.

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 03:11 PM
Okay guys, it's the freakin' Fourth of July weekend for Frith's sake! Let's light up the Rocket and get a little RED('s) glare going around GAB, whadaya say! Let's get the fireworks cranked up! Who's with me?

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:12 PM
Claussen flies out. 2 outs.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 03:13 PM
Looked to me that Lopez overran the ball. Had to make a bare hand play because he went past the ball moving left.

If you just focus on the Reds defense you start to understand their record. Can't blame the pitching the way Claussen is going today, which is excellent.

They just announced that the error charged to Lopez has been changed to a hit for Taveras.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:13 PM
The fact that Claussen continues to improve as a pitcher despite the team playing worse overall is a real testament to the young man. It seems like Harang is being sucked into the gravitational pull (6.67 ERA in June) of this bad team, but Claussen is not. Good for him. I hope Harang can right the ship because he's been awful now for his 6th start in a row.

You wanna talk about "shutting up and playing": Claussen's doing just that.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:14 PM
Lopez grounds out. 3 outs.

2-0 Astros after 3 innings.... I wish the Astros had bad defense like the Reds.

RFS62
07-03-2005, 03:14 PM
They just announced that the error charged to Lopez has been changed to a hit for Taveras.


He tried to pick it barehanded because Taveras was motoring. He apparently judged it to be the only chance to get him.

It was a tough chance barehanded.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:16 PM
Lane flies out. 1 out.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:17 PM
Everett strikes out. 2 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:19 PM
Bruntlett reaches on fielding error.

Kc61
07-03-2005, 03:20 PM
Was that a bad spinning hop too? Lopez is still a high error shortstop, as he has always been. But he has good range and can hit.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:20 PM
Poor Brandon. Not Lopez's finest hour. I hope he's not letting his plate struggles of late hurt his fielding.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:21 PM
Claussen probably has thrown about 20-30 extra pitches because of the errors today.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:22 PM
Claussen probably has thrown about 20-30 extra pitches because of the errors today.

Right. The runs you can live with; the extra pitches, not so much.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:22 PM
Ausmus singles, 1 run scores. Ausmus goes to 2nd on the throw home.

3-0 Astros... no earned runs for Claussen.

Kc61
07-03-2005, 03:23 PM
Astros 3, Bad News Bears 0.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:23 PM
lol Clemens singles, 1 run scores.

4-0 Astros.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 03:24 PM
Was that a bad spinning hop too? Lopez is still a high error shortstop, as he has always been. But he has good range and can hit.

Nah, he just screwed up on that one.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:24 PM
um yeah, Reds are pretty much out of this one.

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 03:25 PM
I've never seen a pitching staff that gets so consistently hurt by the bottom half of opponent's batting orders.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:25 PM
Taveras grounds out. 3 outs.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:25 PM
Brandon's obviously rattled at this point. Understandably so.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 03:25 PM
What a embrassing implosion by the Reds, but that is what bad teams do. I tell you this IF Krivisky is named new GM, this defense/lack of range will not stand since he bent over backward to get Castro just for D LOL ;)

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:27 PM
I've never seen a pitching staff that gets so consistently hurt by the bottom half of opponent's batting orders.

It's what happens when your defense forces your pitcher to throw 20 extra pitches an inning in the deepest humidity of the summer. Claussen was out of that inning; it's happened twice to him today. I'll excuse it once, but not twice.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:29 PM
Dunn singles.

Kc61
07-03-2005, 03:30 PM
I've never seen a pitching staff that gets so consistently hurt by the bottom half of opponent's batting orders.

True, but you can't blame the pitcher for this one. Even that last run, on Clemens' single, scored because Griffey's throw went through to the catcher and wasn't cut off. The runner moved up to second and scored on the single.

The Reds have about 5 DHs in their lineup and it shows.

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 03:30 PM
It's what happens when your defense forces your pitcher to throw 20 extra pitches an inning in the deepest humidity of the summer. Claussen was out of that inning; it's happened twice to him today. I'll excuse it once, but not twice.

Oh, I don't disagree with that. But it's more systemic. Bad pitchers have more trouble getting bad hitters out.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:30 PM
Griffey strikes out. 1 out.

Kc61
07-03-2005, 03:31 PM
Griffey strikes out. 1 out.

Hope the Hall of Fame voters aren't watching today, Kenny.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:31 PM
Oh, I don't disagree with that. But it's more systemic. Bad pitchers have more trouble getting bad hitters out.

Right. Pitchers not named Claussen. Claussen's the only pitcher besides Weathers and Mercker pitching worth a crap on this ballclub.

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2005, 03:32 PM
Dunn-Batting 2nd

1 for 2, 4 walks. On base 5 of 6 plate appearances.

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 03:32 PM
:bang: Did somebody forget to tell the Reds the fireworks show was supposed to be tonight? :help:

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:34 PM
I still contend this team's defense would see a marked improvement with Kearns in right every day. Twinkies and all, he's exponentially better than Pena in that department.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:36 PM
Casey grounds out, Dunn to 2nd. 2 outs.

RedRoser
07-03-2005, 03:36 PM
Twinkies! Now there's no need to bring Dmitri Young (or was it Dante Bichette?) back into this thing. :laugh:

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:39 PM
Randa grounds out. 3 outs.

4-0 Astros after 4 innings.

:)

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 03:40 PM
I've arrived, we're gonna start scoring some runs ;)

Kc61
07-03-2005, 03:41 PM
I still contend this team's defense would see a marked improvement with Kearns in right every day. Twinkies and all, he's exponentially better than Pena in that department.

The key position is centerfield. He covers the most territory. You can't have a centerfielder whose main goal is to avoid injury and therefore won't run hard and won't take chances.

The only great plays I've seen in center from the Reds this year was when Freel played there.

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 03:42 PM
Right. Pitchers not named Claussen. Claussen's the only pitcher besides Weathers and Mercker pitching worth a crap on this ballclub.

Claussen's OPS Against coming into today was .793. Harang has dramatically outpitched him so far this season. Claussen still needs to find that 5MPH he's been missing on his fastball to have anything higher than a #4 ceiling.

He's been the second-best starter on the club so far, for sure. But he's had a lot of smoke and mirrors working for him to get that ERA below 4.00.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:43 PM
Burke flies out. 1 out.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 03:43 PM
The key position is centerfield. He covers the most territory. You can't have a centerfielder whose main goal is to avoid injury and therefore won't run hard and won't take chances.

The only great plays I've seen in center from the Reds this year was when Freel played there.

I guess you've missed the diving catches, over the shoulder catches, and the robbing of a HR Griffey has done this year.

He may not be what he was...but he can still make things happen out there

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:44 PM
Berkman flies out. 2 outs.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:45 PM
Claussen's OPS Against coming into today was .793. Harang has dramatically outpitched him so far this season. Claussen still needs to find that 5MPH he's been missing on his fastball to have anything higher than a #4 ceiling.

He's been the second-best starter on the club so far, for sure. But he's had a lot of smoke and mirrors working for him to get that ERA below 4.00.

The difference between Harang and Claussen?

Claussen continues to improve (slowly admittedly, but surely). Harang doesn't. I think Claussen can have a career at 90 miles an hour.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 03:45 PM
I guess you've missed the diving catches, over the shoulder catches, and the robbing of a HR Griffey has done this year.

He may not be what he was...but he can still make things happen out there

You mean routine plays? Griff in CF is painfull.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:45 PM
Ensberg grounds out. 3 outs.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 03:47 PM
You mean routine plays? Griff in CF is painfull.

Diving catches are routine plays?

Over the shoulder, Willie Mays style catches are routine?

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 03:47 PM
I guess you've missed the diving catches, over the shoulder catches, and the robbing of a HR Griffey has done this year.

He may not be what he was...but he can still make things happen out there

Sporadically, you're right.

But right now, Griffey's Zone Rating is next to last in the NL. But his Range Factor is fourth. That's not a good thing because his RF is an indicator that he's getting a LOT of balls hit in his direction and his ZR tells us that he's getting Outs on a very high percentage of them.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 03:49 PM
Freel can do more on a consistant basis, because he's just scrappy and hasn't had the injury problems (and younger), but he can do things at almost every position, and I think helps the team moreso that way than at one position.

If Griffey remains a Red, he remains out in the outfield.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:49 PM
Aurilia grounds out. 1 out.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 03:50 PM
Diving catches are routine plays?

Over the shoulder, Willie Mays style catches are routine?

Plays that SHOULD be routine Griffey is making "Willie Mays" type catches on.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:51 PM
Cruz grounds out. 2 outs.

I have a feeling the Reds will get shutout today.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 03:52 PM
Valentin flies out. 3 outs.

Clemens should pitch a complete game.

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Not so bad when you get beat badly by a good pitcher, I just can't stand losing to guys with eras near 10

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 03:54 PM
The difference between Harang and Claussen?

Claussen continues to improve (slowly admittedly, but surely). Harang doesn't. I think Claussen can have a career at 90 miles an hour.

Oh, I don't disagree that Claussen can have a career without the kind of velocity he needs to be really truly good. I mean, hey...Mark Redman can do it.

And if Claussen's career can somewhat mirror the results of a Mark Redman, I'll be ok with that.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:55 PM
Valentin flies out. 3 outs.

Clemens should pitch a complete game.

This team has the moxie, excitement, and tenacity of a rusted-out Toronado.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 03:56 PM
Oh, I don't disagree that Claussen can have a career without the kind of velocity he needs to be really truly good. I mean, hey...Mark Redman can do it.

And if Claussen's career can somewhat mirror the results of a Mark Redman, I'll be ok with that.

What if it can mirror Jamie Moyer or Tom Glavine or Kirk Rueter or David Wells or.......

Trust me, I respect the skepticism. But at some point results, improvement and ERA become real.

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 03:58 PM
This team has the moxie, excitement, and tenacity of a rusted-out Toronado.
But..does it still have an engine? ;)

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2005, 03:59 PM
Lane k's
Everett grounded out
Bruntlett grounded out

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 04:00 PM
Al Leiter is another possibilty.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:00 PM
Lane strikes out. 1 out
Everett grounds out. 2 outs
Bruntlett grounds out. 3 outs.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:01 PM
Al Leiter is another possibilty.

Nah, Leiter lives on heat. That's why he's sucking so badly this year--lost zip.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 04:02 PM
Greg Maddux....

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:03 PM
Encarnacion pinch hitting for Claussen.

Claussen goes 6 innings at 103 pitches, gives up 0 Earned runs.
ERA drops to 3.64

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:03 PM
Encarnacion strikes out looking... you think he was a little bit over matched?

:/

pahster
07-03-2005, 04:03 PM
EE didn't look so good there. Clemens is good though.

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2005, 04:04 PM
Encarnacion pinch hitting for Claussen.

Claussen goes 5 innings at 103 pitches, gives up 0 Earned runs.
ERA drops to 3.64

6 innings.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:04 PM
Encarnacion pinch hitting for Claussen.

Claussen goes 5 innings at 103 pitches, gives up 0 Earned runs.
ERA drops to 3.64

Eddy's gettin' a fair shake alright. Pinch-hitting duties against Clemens. :rolleyes: There should be a law.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 04:04 PM
Encarnacion strikes out looking... you think he was a little bit over matched?

:/

Not really. Fouled off plenty.

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 04:05 PM
What if it can mirror Jamie Moyer or Tom Glavine or Kirk Rueter or David Wells or.......

Take a look at the first 10 seasons of Moyer's career and Reuter's overall numbers and you might realize that you're hoping that Claussen can advance to the point of mediocrity with flashes of "good pitcher" eventually...someday...when he's on someone else's team.

He won't do that, of course, until he improves his command and throws fewer pitches per Inning...like all those other LH pitchers you listed did.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:05 PM
6 innings.

my bad I looked at Clemens innings.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:06 PM
Lopez singles.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:08 PM
Dunn flies out. 2 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:11 PM
Griffey singles.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:12 PM
Casey grounds out. 3 outs.

4-0 Astros after 6 innings.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:13 PM
Take a look at the first 10 seasons of Moyer's career and Reuter's overall numbers and you might realize that you're hoping that Claussen can advance to the point of mediocrity with flashes of "good pitcher" eventually...someday...when he's on someone else's team.

He won't do that, of course, until he improves his command and throws fewer pitches per Inning...like all those other LH pitchers you listed did.

Look, I don't know Claussen's future--he may throw his arm next start and never pitch again.

But I look at the pitchers on this squad and I see ONE (1) pitcher showing slow but consistent improvement. That's all I'm saying. You see improvement in Harang; I see a guy who started hot and is currently getting his rump handed to him at close to a 7.00 ERA clip the last 6 starts. That's not improvement.

You have every right to be skeptical. After all, this is the Reds we're talking about; they could screw up lead. But I also feel I have every right to point out an improving pitcher--a rare bird in these parts.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:13 PM
I wish I had a dollar for everytime Casey has grounded out weakly to the right side. I'd be rich. Why is this guy batting cleanup?

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2005, 04:14 PM
Casey's SLG down to .402

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 04:14 PM
Casey can't be dealt soon enough.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:14 PM
Coffey in to pitch.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:15 PM
Casey can't be dealt soon enough.

He wont be delt because there would be a mass suicide at GABP.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:16 PM
Ausmus grounds out. 1 out.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:17 PM
He wont be delt because there would be a mass suicide at GABP.

I agree. Dealing Casey is just about the last thing we'll see, IMO.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:17 PM
Clemens doubles........................................... ..............

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:19 PM
Taveras with another infield hit!!!!!

:)

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:19 PM
Clemens doubles........................................... ..............

Someone posted the other day that the Reds have allowed more hits to pitchers than any other team in the bigs. Sad.

Today has been so frustrating. Errors that allowed Houston to score all 4 runs in a game where we knew we wouldn't get many runs outselves. Just really sad.

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 04:20 PM
Keep Casey if you must..just bat him 7th.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:21 PM
Keep Casey if you must..just bat him 7th.

Nah, get rid of 'em.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:22 PM
Burke singles, bases loaded. 1 out.

Reds killer Berkman is up...

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 04:23 PM
Nah, get rid of 'em.
Not unless he flips off the fans ;)

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:24 PM
Coffey. Now there's an arm I'm skeptical of: hard-thrower who doesn't miss bats. Eek.

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 04:24 PM
Ok, if Todd Coffey can get an additional 4-5 MPH using a four-seam fastball instead of the straight two-seamer he's currently throwing, then by all means junk the two-seamer.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:24 PM
Berkman with a 2 run double.

6-0 Astros.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:25 PM
There goes the game. Lousy relief pitching. Used to be said that effective relievers were a dime a dozen. We got short changed. 6-0.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 04:25 PM
Coffey. Now there's an arm I'm skeptical of: hard-thrower who doesn't miss bats. Eek.

He's just pitching to contact as he's been instructed and taught to do...

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:25 PM
Ensberg intentionally walked, bases loaded.

Grand Slam?

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:26 PM
He's just pitching to contact as he's been instructed and taught to do...

Maybe. Or maybe he's overrated.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:26 PM
There goes the game. Lousy relief pitching. Used to be said that effective relievers were a dime a dozen. We got short changed. 6-0.

The game was over at 4-0... on 4 unearned runs.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:27 PM
Grand Slam?

Not yet. When's Clemons up again? :evil:

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 04:27 PM
There goes the game. Lousy relief pitching. Used to be said that effective relievers were a dime a dozen. We got short changed. 6-0.

This game was over long before that. Coffey is young and you will struggle with youth trying to figure out your arsenal.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:27 PM
Lane flies out. 1 run scores.

7-0 Good guys?... I mean Astros. ;)

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:29 PM
This game was over long before that. Coffey is young and you will struggle with youth trying to figure out your arsenal.

No doubt. And like others said, the game was over at 4-0 anyway, but we don't seem to have anyone who can hold the opposition most of the time. That has to be some kind of record.

Now 8-0.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:29 PM
Everett doubles, 1 run scores, 1 run thrown out. 3 outs.

8-0 Astros... Reds are back to normal.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:30 PM
They should have thrown that scrub Stone in to pitch because it was over at 4-0 with Clemens pitching.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 04:31 PM
No doubt. And like others said, the game was over at 4-0 anyway, but we don't seem to have anyone who can hold the opposition most of the time. That has to be some kind of record.

Now 8-0.

That is what happens when you keep and overuse fluff like Stone and have green pitchers like Wagner,Belisle and Coffey who are blurred between ready to be good pitchers and still raw, though as Steel said, Coffey needs to regain his 4 seamer, I think that would help out his situation alot.

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:31 PM
Think about this team: they currently have three players who should be in Louisville (Coffey, Wagner, and Encarnacion) and have two major leaguers playing with the Bats (Kearns and Booker). Mind-blowing.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 04:31 PM
That was a strike Lopez threw to Valentin for the out of Ensberg.

LexingtonRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:32 PM
Good thing for the 7th inning stretch, some of the fans probably havent had to stand up since they got to their seats.... :bang:

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:33 PM
Think about this team: they currently have three players who should be in Louisville (Coffey, Wagner, and Encarnacion) and have two major leaguers playing with the Bats (Kearns and Booker). Mind-blowing.

theres more than 3 people that need to be in the minors.
- Stone
- Wagner
- Encarnacion
- Shackelford
- Romano

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:34 PM
That is what happens when you keep and overuse fluff like Stone and have green pitchers like Wagner,Belisle and Coffey who are blurred between ready to be good pitchers and still raw, though as Steel said, Coffey needs to regain his 4 seamer, I think that would help out his situation alot.

Exactly. Apparently some players (Stone, Aurilia, Machado, Romano, etc.) are favorites of the GM and will play. Those that aren't favorites of the GM are banished to the minors.

We need a new GM.

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 04:35 PM
Why is Coffey even throwing a 2 seamer? Last year he was strictly 4 seamer/spitter.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:35 PM
Exactly. Apparently some players (Stone, Aurilia, Machado, etc.) are favorites of the GM and will play. Those that aren't favorites of the GM are banished to the minors.

We need a new GM.

The need more than a new GM.
The need a new owner, GM, manager, coaches, pitchers, fielders, batboy etc...

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 04:36 PM
Why is Coffey even throwing a 2 seamer? Last year he was strictly 4 seamer/spitter.

I wonder if Gullett taught him the 2 seamer...

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:36 PM
1-2-3 inning for Clemens... do we get to see a complete game shut out by Clemens?

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 04:36 PM
theres more than 3 people that need to be in the minors.
- Stone
- Wagner
- Encarnacion
- Shackelford
- Romano

I think you get what I mean: Romano is a 25th man scrub, and Stone shouldn't be in any system, majors or minors; Shackelford probably deserves a bit longer look IMO.

SteelSD
07-03-2005, 04:36 PM
Why is Coffey even throwing a 2 seamer? Last year he was strictly 4 seamer/spitter.

Because it moves downward.

Yeah, the Reds are telling everyone to throw a two-seamer because it sinks, regardless of whether or not they're any good at it.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:37 PM
Why is Coffey even throwing a 2 seamer? Last year he was strictly 4 seamer/spitter.

Probably Gullett's influence. Folks, I'm anxious to see what Verne Ruhle can do with this staff. Of course, with him being the minor league pitching expert earlier, maybe it was him.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:38 PM
Wagner wasnt in the minors except when he got sent down for sucking.

;)

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:38 PM
Shackelford in to pitch.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:40 PM
Ho boy...

Now we get Shackelford. And he's wearing #37, the number once worn by Bob Purkey who won 56 games from 1960-1962 with an ERA under 3.50.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:40 PM
Bruntlett grounds out. 1 out.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 04:41 PM
A Stealth bomber just flew past GABP. Not sure what that means...

M2
07-03-2005, 04:42 PM
Ok, if Todd Coffey can get an additional 4-5 MPH using a four-seam fastball instead of the straight two-seamer he's currently throwing, then by all means junk the two-seamer.

I'd agree with you except that over the past 1.5 seasons the Reds have shown that pitch selection by general managerial fiat works so well.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:42 PM
Im checking out the Astros board and they think the Reds will take some scrub like Astacio + some other people for Dunn.

Now if the Reds do that, then the stadium should be burned. ;)

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 04:43 PM
A Stealth bomber just flew past GABP. Not sure what that means...

The Department of Homeland Security thinks that the Reds are terrorists because no team could be that bad even if it tried?

They must be spies :-)

M2
07-03-2005, 04:43 PM
Just thinking out loud, but why didn't the marketing folks bill today's game as "Half Way to 100"?

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:44 PM
A Stealth bomber just flew past GABP. Not sure what that means...

They are getting ready to blow up the stadium?

:evil:

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 04:44 PM
A Stealth bomber just flew past GABP. Not sure what that means...
The end is near.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:44 PM
Ausmus walks.

Vizcaino batting for Clemens.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:45 PM
The end is near.

Time to get the guns and bullet proof vests.... then take over the city.

:beerme:

Aronchis
07-03-2005, 04:45 PM
I bet Wagner has been "taught" to throw the 2 seamer as well.

Only Matt Belisle from the "young trio" can throw a 2 seamer. He has the best numbers and looks to be developing the best.

Wagner and Coffey are max effort guys that throw hard 4 seamers and mix it with a nasty pitch. If you are going make the 2 seamer a rule, Wagner and Coffey should have been traded for pitchers that fit what you want. Trying to "teach" them 2 seamers is destructive for their development.

Hopefully DanO is fired and somebody can bring order, but that is up to Lindner.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:46 PM
Vizcaino pops out. 2 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:47 PM
Taveras doubles.

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 04:48 PM
Time to get the guns and bullet proof vests.... then take over the city.

:beerme:

The revolution will not be televised

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 04:49 PM
The end is near.

I wish it would get here then. I'm going to eat grilled chicken and drink cold beer after the game. :)

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:49 PM
Burke flies out. 3 outs.

Mutaman
07-03-2005, 04:50 PM
I may have missed it, but has anybody noted what a big difference firing Miley made?

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:50 PM
The revolution will not be televised

It wont be televised locally do to MLB blackout rules.

:p:

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 04:50 PM
Wagner wasnt in the minors except when he got sent down for sucking.

;)

Wags pitched 9 innings combined between Chattanooga and Louisville before being called up in '03.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:51 PM
I may have missed it, but has anybody noted what a big difference firing Miley made?

Yes, the Reds are in the race for the wild card.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 04:51 PM
It wont be televised locally do to MLB blackout rules.

:p:

Hopefully I can still get it on MLB.TV. ;)

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:51 PM
Wags pitched 9 innings combined between Chattanooga and Louisville before being called up in '03.

Well it wasnt the minors that screwed him up, it was the majors.

:help:

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 04:52 PM
It wont be televised locally do to MLB blackout rules.

:p:

:laugh:

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:53 PM
Valentin lines out. 1 out.

Mutaman
07-03-2005, 04:53 PM
Yes, the Reds are in the race for the wild card.

You must mean the wild card for the worst team in baseball. Look at the bright side, I heard John Madden say yesterday that foodball season officially starts on July 5th.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 04:53 PM
Well it wasnt the minors that screwed him up, it was the majors.

:help:

Gullett?

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 04:54 PM
Great diving catch by Bruntlett.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:55 PM
Gullett?

Gullett, Hume... whoever tought him how to be a Reds pitcher.


:devil:

CTA513
07-03-2005, 04:56 PM
Romano bats for Shackelford... Romano strikes out. 2 outs.

Lopez hit by pitch.

M2
07-03-2005, 04:57 PM
Great diving catch by Bruntlett.

I don't know if the kid ever will hit, but his glove the past two days is turning me green with envy.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 05:00 PM
Romano bats for Shackelford... Romano strikes out. 2 outs.

Lopez hit by pitch.

Took it off his left hand.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:00 PM
Dunn strikethithessdss out. 3 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:01 PM
Wagner in to pitch.

Olmedo takes Lopez place on the field....

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 05:01 PM
I don't know if the kid ever will hit, but his glove the past two days is turning me green with envy.

I didn't get to see much of the games yesterday, but if that catch is any indication, I'd agree with you.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:02 PM
Marty seems to love Tom Cruise so much you would think they are married....

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 05:02 PM
Romano in at CF.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:02 PM
Berkman pops out. 1 out.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 05:02 PM
I may have missed it, but has anybody noted what a big difference firing Miley made?

It makes it one less step to getting DanO. Now that he has his manager and his players, we now can see it's the GM, stupid.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:03 PM
Ensberg homers.

Wagner saves the day again.

9-0 Astrossssssssssss

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:03 PM
Lane grounds out. 2 outs.

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:04 PM
Everett grounds out. 3 outs.

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 05:04 PM
Just keep it below 10 please

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 05:04 PM
Romano in at CF.

Figures. DanO will get his players, no matter how bad they are, in the game. And the ones he doesn't like get sent to minor league hell for reasons only he can explain.

Mutaman
07-03-2005, 05:04 PM
It makes it one less step to getting DanO. Now that he has his manager and his players, we now can see it's the GM, stupid.


Wrong, its the owner, stupid.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 05:05 PM
Wrong, its the owner, stupid.

One step up. We'll be there pretty soon. :beerme:

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:07 PM
Olmedo grounds out. 1 out.

2 outs left.

M2
07-03-2005, 05:07 PM
I didn't get to see much of the games yesterday, but if that catch is any indication, I'd agree with you.

He crossed the ocean to snare a Griffey drive at the wall in left-center. In fact, he hit the wall on the run, bounced off, wheeled around and got the ball back in to double-off the runner on first.

RosieRed
07-03-2005, 05:08 PM
I didn't see the Lopez HBP. Is he okay? Anyone know?

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 05:08 PM
Males...turn on MTV (going to commercial right now), much better than this ball game

Falls City Beer
07-03-2005, 05:09 PM
fiat

http://www.clubcars.net/images/seicento.jpg

DanO's Fiat

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:09 PM
Casey grounds out. 2 outs.

Matt700wlw
07-03-2005, 05:10 PM
Staggering fact:

Dontrell Willis has won 7 games on the road

The Reds as a team have won 7 games on the road


Another one:

Clemens has more career wins by himself than the entire 13 player pitching staff combined...

smith288
07-03-2005, 05:11 PM
Staggering stat:

Dontrell Willis has won 7 games on the road

The Reds as a team have won 7 games on the road ugh

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:11 PM
and this one belongs to the Re... Astros

CTA513
07-03-2005, 05:12 PM
Staggering fact:

Dontrell Willis has won 7 games on the road

The Reds as a team have won 7 games on the road


Another one:

Clemens has more career wins by himself than the entire 13 player pitching staff combined...

I bet Florida wishes they had the ACES that the Reds have.

:beerme:

Mutaman
07-03-2005, 05:14 PM
One step up. We'll be there pretty soon. :beerme:

Ok, Im a patient man.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 05:14 PM
Figures. DanO will get his players, no matter how bad they are, in the game.

Well, Griffey did play both games of the DH yesterday. No problem getting him out of a blow out game. No need to risk it, IMO.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 05:14 PM
Casey grounds out. 2 outs.

I wonder how many times that line has been written over the past three years? Add "to the right side" and I bet it's in the thousands. :eek:

The Houston broadcasters think Sean is in trouble because of the number of scouts in attendance today. The shift worked perfectly and it may be duplicated everywhere--at least those guys think so.

WVRedsFan
07-03-2005, 05:16 PM
Well, Griffey did play both games of the DH yesterday. No problem getting him out of a blow out game. No need to risk it, IMO.

Why not Pena, or is there something I don't know?

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 05:18 PM
He crossed the ocean to snare a Griffey drive at the wall in left-center. In fact, he hit the wall on the run, bounced off, wheeled around and got the ball back in to double-off the runner on first.

Thats the play where he doubled up Olmedo wasn't it? I saw that. That was a heads up play on his part. Great throw too.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 05:24 PM
Why not Pena, or is there something I don't know?

I don't know. I haven't heard about anything being wrong with Peņa but he also played both games Saturday. Maybe that's why.

Reds Nd2
07-03-2005, 05:26 PM
Happy 3rd of July everybody. Have fun and be careful. :party:

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 05:27 PM
Same to you Nd2! :)

OnBaseMachine
07-03-2005, 05:36 PM
One last Casey update: SLG down to .401.

Unassisted
07-03-2005, 06:36 PM
Clemens is a monster. The sooner he gets traded out of the National League, the better.

KittyDuran
07-03-2005, 07:15 PM
Just got back from the games - and the 2nd one was a lot more entertaining than the first [more on that later].

Read the first of the game thread and was surprised that no one was up in arms over Dunn picked off... I was ready to come down there and give him a good spanking [and not dominatrix kind - the kind that my Dad would administer]. <Sigh> I :luvu: Dunn but sometimes I want to :yikes: and do this :runawaycr. Maybe that's why Marty is so hard on him...Unfortunately, I was listening to him :rolleyes: as well. Dunn is effortlessly talented but just seems uninterested at times. Anyhoo, his pickoff just seemed to set the tone for the game - along with the errors. Poor Brandon :(. I really feel sorry for people who spend a lot of money at these ballgames - as most of you know, I'm really cheap when it comes to attending. But seeing fans bake in the heat in the expensive seats was more depressing today. I usually wait until August for apathy to set in, but it might be starting the earlier this year. :(

Now on to more exciting things... stayed to see the game between the Cincinnati Red Stockings and the Cincinnati Buckeyes [1869 baseball]. I'd say about 300 stayed. I was looking frantically for Chip on the Stockings but found out he was playing for the Buckeyes. Was third to bat in the bottom of the 1st and KO on a "tick" [sp?] which is a one bouce foul to the catcher. He also had one "muff" [error] in the top of the 2nd in the field. Otherwise he was great and I had a good time. Greg Rhoads (?) and the PA announcer for the Reds had a running commentary that helped a lot. There were a few ladies and girls in period costumes. The only downside was that it was only 3 innings and they really didn't properly stop the game [tho' they did "hoozahs" the crowd]. Final score:

1 2 3
CRS 2 1 0 3 8 0
CB 0 2 0 2 4 0

KittyDuran
07-03-2005, 07:20 PM
Oh, almost forgot - and if you were listening to Marty and Steve you were aware, but a Stealth flew over. Caught most of us by surprise -it was flying pretty low... :eek:

Unassisted
07-03-2005, 08:06 PM
Oh, almost forgot - and if you were listening to Marty and Steve you were aware, but a Stealth flew over. Caught most of us by surprise -it was flying pretty low... :eek:I was listening to Milo Hamilton and Alan Ashby. Neither of them could come up with the name of the plane.

Milo said "Oh there goes one of those planes with no wings!"

Alan said "Yeah, the ones you can't see on radar."

Milo replies with "It's not on my radar, that's for sure!"

I hope Marty and Steve did better than that. :lol:

KronoRed
07-03-2005, 08:20 PM
Stealth bomber or fighter?

:D

KittyDuran
07-03-2005, 08:48 PM
I was listening to Milo Hamilton and Alan Ashby. Neither of them could come up with the name of the plane.

Milo said "Oh there goes one of those planes with no wings!"

Alan said "Yeah, the ones you can't see on radar."

Milo replies with "It's not on my radar, that's for sure!"

I hope Marty and Steve did better than that. :lol:They did - I usually don't listen to the game at the game - but was today, since the game was boring [on the Reds front].

KittyDuran
07-03-2005, 08:48 PM
Stealth bomber or fighter?

:DHave NO idea - it caught me by surprise - plus I was up in the last row so it seemed as if it was very close.

Chip R
07-03-2005, 09:15 PM
Just got back from the games - and the 2nd one was a lot more entertaining than the first [more on that later].

Now on to more exciting things... stayed to see the game between the Cincinnati Red Stockings and the Cincinnati Buckeyes [1869 baseball]. I'd say about 300 stayed. I was looking frantically for Chip on the Stockings but found out he was playing for the Buckeyes. Was third to bat in the bottom of the 1st and KO on a "tick" [sp?] which is a one bouce foul to the catcher. He also had one "muff" [error] in the top of the 2nd in the field. Otherwise he was great and I had a good time. Greg Rhoads (?) and the PA announcer for the Reds had a running commentary that helped a lot. There were a few ladies and girls in period costumes. The only downside was that it was only 3 innings and they really didn't properly stop the game [tho' they did "hoozahs" the crowd]. Final score:

1 2 3
CRS 2 1 0 3 8 0
CB 0 2 0 2 4 0 Preach, Kitty! ;)

I was teh suck at bat today. But at least I handled my only chance at 2nd OK. The poor bugger who replaced me in the 2nd had some tough chances. I doubt I would have done better. But it was a great time playing there. Hopefully we can do it again next year.

cReds1
07-03-2005, 09:27 PM
Man, I am sure glad putting Dunn in the second hole paid off. :rolleyes:

KittyDuran
07-03-2005, 09:56 PM
Man, I am sure glad putting Dunn in the second hole paid off. :rolleyes:Not really, it's been a small sample size - like 2 games? I really didn't expect instant results namely because even tho' everyone was lobbying for Dunn to bat second - the key was the right combination to follow him in the order. In other words, that combination might never happen with this managerial staff and FO.

TeamBoone
07-03-2005, 11:42 PM
Actually, Dunn in the #2 spot has been quite successful (though it doesn't seem to have done Casey much good).

Dunn:
Game #1: 1 for 1 with 3 walks (1 RBI; 1 LOB)
Game #2: 1 for 3 with 1 walk

Casey:
Game #1: 0 for 4 (5 LOB)
Game #2: 0 for 4 (3 LOB)

I've always thought that Casey is kind of hacker and could hit about anything thrown at him... but obviously I was wrong. Granted it's a small sample size, but it's looking like he was benefiting greatly by Griffey's protection.

cReds1
07-04-2005, 12:22 AM
Not really, it's been a small sample size - like 2 games? I really didn't expect instant results namely because even tho' everyone was lobbying for Dunn to bat second - the key was the right combination to follow him in the order. In other words, that combination might never happen with this managerial staff and FO.

so what is the ultimate line-up card? just curious to know what most want because i just think a power hitter should never be in the number 2 hole

i agree with you on the manager and FO statement. one of these outfielders will be gone soon and it will either be Dunn or Kearns and I will say it will be Dunn because I don't see someone giving us much for a guy who is struggling down in AAA

Reds Nd2
07-04-2005, 12:51 AM
Read the first of the game thread and was surprised that no one was up in arms over Dunn picked off... I was ready to come down there and give him a good spanking [and not dominatrix kind - the kind that my Dad would administer]. <Sigh>

He looked safe to me and FSN Houston only showed one good replay of it. The PBP guys seemed to question it but they never went back to it or commented on it further.

Now for the important stuff. :)

How many Stealth planes flew by GABP? That was way cool! FSN Houston showed it a few times. The first couple of times looked to be replays of the first, but the other one looked like a different fly-by. Makes the pics I took of the riverboats passing the GABP smokestacks pale in comparison.

KittyDuran
07-04-2005, 10:48 AM
He looked safe to me and FSN Houston only showed one good replay of it. The PBP guys seemed to question it but they never went back to it or commented on it further.

Now for the important stuff. :)

How many Stealth planes flew by GABP? That was way cool! FSN Houston showed it a few times. The first couple of times looked to be replays of the first, but the other one looked like a different fly-by. Makes the pics I took of the riverboats passing the GABP smokestacks pale in comparison.Just one... and like I said before from my perch in the top row 3rd base line it was flying very low. Not a massive plane - so I was confused at first. Then it sort of "banked" and I saw the shape [mind you, this is in a very short time - some might have missed it]. Those of us who saw it cheered! A guy two rows in front of me thought that all of the Stealths were deployed... It was flying away from GABP going NE.