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[Rychian]

I just want to say that I have really enjoyed this thread. People tend to get mad when they disagree about the scriptures. I think when we are talking about our soul in eternity we should talk about it with a open mind. We should also do what the bible says not what we think or feel the bible should say.


There has been one thing that I have read more than once on this thread that I disagree with. That is that all that you have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus and that is all you have to do to be saved or saved by faith only. That we are saved by faith or belief I do not deny for the word of God teaches this clearly in John 3:16 among many other passages. I think it must be understood just because a passage mentions faith or belief other conditions are not ruled out.


While the bible teaches that faith is a necessary condition of salvation it also teaches that there are degrees of faith. Jesus used the term little faith in Matt. 6:30 and we read of weak faith in Romans 14:1, great faith in Matt. 8:10 strong faith in Romans 4:20 working faith in Galations 5:6 saving faith in Hebrews 10:39 and dead faith in James 2:20. The kind of faith that does not save is the kind we read about in John 12:42 where the inspired apostle says nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him [Jesus] but because of the pharisees they did not confess him lest they should be put out of the synagogue. Some of those chief ruler believed but would not confess Christ. Where these men saved?


The faith that saves is the working faith that takes God at his word and does not question it but does exactly what it says in the way that God says it. Hebrews 11:8 says by faith Abraham when he was called obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to recieve for an inheritance and he went out. This was obedient faith on the part of Abraham and is the kind of faith God expects from you and me.


What must we do to be saved?
1.Hear the word Mark 12:29, Romans 10: 14-17
2.Believe Hebrews 11:6
3.repent 2Cor.7:10,Luke 13:3
4.Confess Acts 8:36-38, Acts 22:16
5.baptism Acts 2:38, Gal 3:27, Acts 22:16


I'm sorry for the long post. If anyone would like to discuss this in a friendly manner I enjoy talking about the scriptures and am willing to discuss them as long as you like.


James,
I would agree with you however but, there is some argument that you dont need to be baptized in order to be saved. What would have happened to Christ had he died on the way to the Jordan? I know, He's God and so it should have been taken care of, but its a question nonetheless. There are far too many people who place their salvation on the act of baptism, when all that matters is the decision that got you to that baptism.

And with that, Ill go back to reading this thread.

I love creating a stir...

Tom

[James B.]

Rychian I will agree it is not the baptism itself that saves you but it is the act of obedience. As far as Jesus he was not baptized for the remission of sins. The bible says he was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.Matt.3:15. The baptism for remission of sins did not become a command till after the death and resurrection of Jesus.Acts 2:38.

Acts 19:3-5 says and he said to them into what were you baptized. So they said into Johns baptism. Then Paul said John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance saying to the people that they should believe on him who would come after him that is on Chritst Jesus. When they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The people who were baptized before the death and resurrection had to be baptized again.

Romans chapter 6 really gives the importance of baptism. Starting with verse 3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. Therefore we were buried with him through baptism into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father even so we should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likness of his death certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection, knowing this that our old man was crucified with him that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he he has died with Christ has been freed from sin.

[GAC]

Romans chapter 6 really gives the importance of baptism. Starting with verse 3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. Therefore we were buried with him through baptism into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father even so we should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likness of his death certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection, knowing this that our old man was crucified with him that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he he has died with Christ has been freed from sin.

While I thoroughly agree with you that baptism is done as an act of obedience, I also believe it is an "outward sign of an inward grace" that had already taken place. In other words...one was saved and "baptized" into the Body of Christ through the Holy Spirit prior to. And I think scrpiture more then points this out. And again, understand, I am not downplaying baptism - just saying the ceremonial act no more saves then one attending church, partaking of Communion, and other various ritualistic, outward "works".

I was really helped by Kenneth Wuest. Wuest was a recognized scholar on the Greek language, and his "Word Studies" (among other commentaries) were/are a valuable tool for any layperson who takes their study of the scriptures seriously. Romans 5-8 are probably, to me, four of the most important chapters in the New Testament. Why?

chapter 5 - how sin entered the world, and how all men possess, and are under the reign of, that sin nature and are thus under condemnation.

chapter 6 - How God "identifies" the believer in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection to dethrone the indwelling power of sin and impart the divine nature.

chapter 7 - the struggles/frustration one will encounter if they attempt to overcome that inner principle of sin via their own efforts/strength and without that divine aid. Impossibility.

chapter 8 - the Spirit-filled life. The Spirit is only mentioned once in chapter 1-7; but now takes prominence. It is through a "walk" by the Spirit that one is able to fulfill the "spirit" of God's law.

Back to chapter 6....

The word "sin" in chapter 6 does not refer to acts, but in the Greek is personified and refers to an indwelling presence/governing principle. The key concept in chapter 6 is "machinery" - the inner workings wrought by God when he saves an individual, the power of indwelling sin broken, and the divine nature implanted (born of the Spirit).

Verses 2-14 are Paul's response to the question of verse 1 where his critics questioned this concept of justification based solely on the free grace of God versus the Law. Grace was a foreign concept to the Jews/Judaizers, so they believed, via misunderstanding, that grace, outside of the keeping the Law, promotes a life of sin. Beginning with Jesus, and then Paul, they attacked the Jew's religion of justification by the Law. That was not the purpose of the Law. So Paul's critics were basically saying "Yeah, you followers of this Christ believe you can just live a life of sin, sin ,sin because after all, we are saved by grace through faith..."Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound?" (v1).

Ever heard that accusation thrown at believers before? ;)

Paul gives a resounding "Certainly not!" (v2), and then goes on to show the believer how this is a "mechanical" impossibility due to the inner workings of God through the Holy Spirit.

The word "baptism" in chapter 6 does not refer to water baptism, but is used in a metaphorical sense, as we might say someone was immersed in his work. It refers to the spiritual baptism (1st Corinthinians 12:13) of the believer into the Body of Christ, and inwhich God breaks/dethrones that sinful nature. It doesn't mean that nature is destroyed or no longer present; but that it has been dethroned. The Greek word "baptizo" means "the introduction or placing of a person into a new environment or into a union with somthing else, so as to alter their condition or their relationship to their previous environment or condition".

It refers to the act of God introducing a believing sinner into vital union with Jesus Christ, in order that the believer might have the power of their sinful nature broken and the divine nature implanted through his identification with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection, and bringing them into a new environment - the kingdom of God - from a sinner to a saint (one set apart by God). The "newness of life" imparted to the believer is now the source of a ethical and spiritual energy imparted by God by which the believer is enabled to live the life Paul exhorts in chapters 12-16.

And while it does not refer to sinless perfection (thank God for grace in that sense), it is why I will contend with anyone who thinks/feels God's grace allows them to knowingly live a life in sin. Once sin is brought to that beleiver's attention via conviction of the inner working of Holy Spirit (and scripture), then confession of that sin, along with repentance, is a requirement. Thus the admonition in v.11-14 (and many other places in Paul's letters)...

"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."


I see sanctification as a three-fold process...

initial sanctification - wrought by God when he saves an individual and they are "set apart" by God and placed into the Body of Christ.

progressive sanctification - growth by the believer, more and more, into Christlikeness via the working of God (Holy Spirit) within that believer who yields to the Spirit. Its a lifetime work..."walk (order one's behavior) by the Spirit - "be filled with the Spirit". It's like a "covenant" between the believer and God.

final sanctification - the receiving of one's glorified body (1st Corinthians 15, Romans 8:18-30)

Thus the admonition in v.11-14 - "In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."

[James B.]

[QUOTE=GAC]

The word "baptism" in chapter 6 does not refer to water baptism, but is used in a metaphorical sense, as we might say someone was immersed in his work. It refers to the spiritual baptism (1st Corinthinians 12:13) of the believer into the Body of Christ, and inwhich God breaks/dethrones that sinful nature. It doesn't mean that nature is destroyed or no longer present; but that it has been dethroned. The Greek word "baptizo" means "the introduction or placing of a person into a new environment or into a union with somthing else, so as to alter their condition or their relationship to their previous environment or condition".


GAC I have been reading you post since the cincy.com days and I really like the fact that you defend Gods word. As far as the topic of baptism I looked up the greek word baptizo in the Wyciffe bible dictionary and it had 5 meanings. 1. to immerse or submerge. 2. to overflow or cover with water. 3 to wet thoroughly or moisten. 4. to pour upon or drench. 5. in any way to be overwelmed or overpowered. Strongs dictionary has a Greek dictionary and it says baptizo means to make fully wet.

Acts ch.8 says starting with verse 36 and as they were on there they came unto a certain water and the eunuch said see here is water what doth hender me to be baptized and Philip said if thou believest with all they heart thou mayest. And he answered and said I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still and they went down into the water both Philip and the eunuch and he baptized him. The greek word for baptism here is baptizo. It is clear that this was not a spiritual baptism.

Another example is found in IIKings ch.5 were Naaman was told to dip in the Jordon river 7 times the greek word used for dip was baptizo.

[traderumor]

James,

I'm not following you. Are you referring to water baptism, the outward symbol of an inward reality, or are you discussing the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[James B.]

water baptism the one that washes away sins acts 22:16

[traderumor]

water baptism the one that washes away sins acts 22:16

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA
So, if I follow you, baptism washes away sins which also leads to calling on the name of the Lord? Wouldn't the sense be "calling on the name of the Lord" (a saying for accepting salvation), which results in washing away of sins, with baptism being the sign of that action?

Furthermore, isn't the atonement contained in Christ's death and resurrection?
Or does this hymn contain incorrect theology? "What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus?"

Also, how did the thief on the cross get his sins washed away?

[GAC]

[QUOTE=GAC]GAC I have been reading you post since the cincy.com days and I really like the fact that you defend Gods word. As far as the topic of baptism I looked up the greek word baptizo in the Wyciffe bible dictionary and it had 5 meanings. 1. to immerse or submerge. 2. to overflow or cover with water. 3 to wet thoroughly or moisten. 4. to pour upon or drench. 5. in any way to be overwelmed or overpowered. Strongs dictionary has a Greek dictionary and it says baptizo means to make fully wet.

You're absolutely right. What one must do though is examine the context inwhich the word is being utilized to arrive at the correct application of the word. In other words, it is/can be used for water baptism in one text (such as your reference to the eunuch in Acts 8); but it does not mean that it is them to be universally applied in every sense. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, the word is "baptizo", and it refers to spiritual baptism..."For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body".

In Ephesians 4:4 Paul states... "There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

In Luke 3:16, John the Baptist states..."I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

Mark 10:38,39 - "You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?" "We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with"

Jesus was referring to his sufferings (the cup I drink)... and the baptism was to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

I'm just showing different applications/usage of the word.

Examine and study the entire text of Romans 6, and what Paul is attempting to convey. It is talking about our identification with Christ, the dethroning of the sin nature, and the imparting of the divine nature (new birth). Now the question one must ask themselves is by who (or how) is this accomplished? Does it come from being submerged in water or any other ceremonial/ritualistic act we may participate in... or does it find its origin with God? Where does this radical transformation find it's origin in? Who institutes it?

I believe in, and participate in, the various outward rituals instituted by Jesus - baptism and the Lord's Supper for instance. But one's participation in those outward acts are, as I stated earlier, acts of obedience participated in by one who is already saved and a member of that Body. And I see too many believing that participating in these rituals constitutes salvation, just as some say the same for church membership, and that is not scripturally supported.

I am always reminded of Paul's very stern words for the Galatian church...

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." (Galatians 3:1-9)

Was Abraham baptised? How about the thief on the cross who came to repentance?

And then there are these words from Paul to the Corinthian church....

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I've had a similar discussions with my brother, who attends a church that teaches unless one is water baptized (and in their church too-no other), then you are not saved. We respectfully disagree with each other. :lol:

[James B.]

Traderumor I am not saying we are saved without the blood of Christ. The difference is you said all we have to do is believe on Jesus and I am saying the bible teaches we have to also repent confess and be baptized to contact the blood of Jesus.

[James B.]

Gac the thief on the cross did not have to be baptized because they were still under the old testament.Same thing for Abraham. The new testament did not start till acts ch.2 when Peter preached the first gospel sermon. Read Hebrews 9:15-17.

I dont have time to post much tonight but I would like to point out that God has commanded us to be at the church assembly.Hebrews 10:25

[traderumor]

Traderumor I am not saying we are saved without the blood of Christ. The difference is you said all we have to do is believe on Jesus and I am saying the bible teaches we have to also repent confess and be baptized to contact the blood of Jesus.

Actually, you were saying the blood of Christ is not enough. Christ's shed blood is efficacious by faith, which is what all of the following verses are saying. You are promoting baptismal regeneration, adding requirements to "faith alone in Christ alone." Plain and simple, the Bible does not teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is evidence of salvation, as one publicly presents what has already been wrought privately in one's heart. However, one who does not follow in baptism will be saved, which I still have not seen a satisfactory answer to the thief on the cross that excuses him from the requirements of baptismal regeneration. I followed in baptism weeks after I asked Christ to save me. However, I was saved (justified) at the point of asking Christ to save me. "There to the heart was the blood applied, glory to His name." That's what the following verses say, that's what being saved by faith alone in Christ alone means.


(Rom 10:9 KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(Romans 10:13 KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Acts 16:30-31 KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

(Galatians 3:11 KJV) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(Titus 3:5 KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[GAC]

Gac the thief on the cross did not have to be baptized because they were still under the old testament.Same thing for Abraham.

But if you read Romans chapter 4, Paul holds up Abraham as an example to New Testament believers as an example of justification by faith.

"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (v3)

"We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." (v9)

"It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all." (vv 13, 16)

"being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." (vv 21-25)

"Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." (Galatians 3:6-9)

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:26-29)

[traderumor]

Gac the thief on the cross did not have to be baptized because they were still under the old testament.Same thing for Abraham. The new testament did not start till acts ch.2 when Peter preached the first gospel sermon. Read Hebrews 9:15-17.

I dont have time to post much tonight but I would like to point out that God has commanded us to be at the church assembly.Hebrews 10:25


(Mat 28:19 KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

So a command was given that was not yet in effect? What about the baptism of the apostles? I'm coming at this from memory, but I do not remember their baptisms as being recorded after Pentecost, so did they not get baptized? Were they even saved? What about Christ's baptism, since he did not have anything to repent of as John the Baptizer's baptism is generally characterized?

[James B.]

Actually, you were saying the blood of Christ is not enough. Christ's shed blood is efficacious by faith, which is what all of the following verses are saying. You are promoting baptismal regeneration, adding requirements to "faith alone in Christ alone." Plain and simple, the Bible does not teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is evidence of salvation, as one publicly presents what has already been wrought privately in one's heart. However, one who does not follow in baptism will be saved, which I still have not seen a satisfactory answer to the thief on the cross that excuses him from the requirements of baptismal regeneration. I followed in baptism weeks after I asked Christ to save me. However, I was saved (justified) at the point of asking Christ to save me. "There to the heart was the blood applied, glory to His name." That's what the following verses say, that's what being saved by faith alone in Christ alone means.


Just because God tells us we must do something to accept the blood doesnt mean we saved ourselves or that we dont need Christ. The reason is if we did these things without Christ blood we would be lost. Belief in God is even a work. The verses that you quoted I agree with 100%. I have never said you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved but if that is all you have to do were the people saved in John 12:42,43?
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in him but because of the pharisees they did not confess him lest they should be put out of the synagogue for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


You quoted Romans 10:9,10 and that contradicts what you have been posting about faith only.That verse says you have to confess and believe. Acts 2:38 says you have to repent and be baptized. Both verses are Gods word and are true.

[James B.]

So a command was given that was not yet in effect? What about the baptism of the apostles? I'm coming at this from memory, but I do not remember their baptisms as being recorded after Pentecost, so did they not get baptized? Were they even saved? What about Christ's baptism, since he did not have anything to repent of as John the Baptizer's baptism is generally characterized?

As far as the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel that was after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 1:3 says he was seen by them forty days and speaking the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.In verse 4 he tells them not to depart from Jerusalem but to wait for the promise of the father. On the day of pentecost the holy spirit came or the promise of the father.That is when they were supposed the start to go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

The bible does not mention the baptism of the apostles but they probably were baptized on pentecost.3,000 souls were added to the church that day.

The bible says that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righeousness. I don't really have an answer to what that means. I assume it was just for an example.What do you think it means?

[traderumor]

Just because God tells us we must do something to accept the blood doesnt mean we saved ourselves or that we dont need Christ. The reason is if we did these things without Christ blood we would be lost. Belief in God is even a work. The verses that you quoted I agree with 100%. I have never said you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved but if that is all you have to do were the people saved in John 12:42,43?
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in him but because of the pharisees they did not confess him lest they should be put out of the synagogue for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


You quoted Romans 10:9,10 and that contradicts what you have been posting about faith only.That verse says you have to confess and believe. Acts 2:38 says you have to repent and be baptized. Both verses are Gods word and are true.Let me guess, James, church of christ?

[GAC]

As far as the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel that was after the resurrection of Jesus. Acts 1:3 says he was seen by them forty days and speaking the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.In verse 4 he tells them not to depart from Jerusalem but to wait for the promise of the father. On the day of pentecost the holy spirit came or the promise of the father.That is when they were supposed the start to go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

And we see WHAT that promise was though ...."All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4)


The bible does not mention the baptism of the apostles but they probably were baptized on pentecost.

Respectfully James, you're making an assumption here. No where does it say the apostles were ever water baptized.



The bible says that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righeousness. I don't really have an answer to what that means. I assume it was just for an example.What do you think it means?

"to fulfill all righteousness" refers to...

1) his pubic affirmation of his messiahship by testimony directly from heaven, and

2) it also marked his first public identification with those whose sins he would bear. His baptism "pictured" His death and resurrection and again symbolizes the believer's identification with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:12)

Christ identified with us, the sinner, so that we could identify with him.

[James B.]

Let me guess, James, church of christ?
yes

[James B.]

And we see WHAT that promise was though ...."All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4)


Yes that was to show them it was time to start the new testament church

Respectfully James, you're making an assumption here. No where does it say the apostles were ever water baptized.



It doesnt.That is why I said probably on pentecost but I do know they were baptized.




"to fulfill all righteousness" refers to...

1) his pubic affirmation of his messiahship by testimony directly from heaven, and

2) it also marked his first public identification with those whose sins he would bear. His baptism "pictured" His death and resurrection and again symbolizes the believer's identification with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-5, Colossians 2:12)

Christ identified with us, the sinner, so that we could identify with him.

Thanks that is a good answer.Well except the baptism being a symbol part.

[traderumor]

yesDo you also believe that someone who does not get baptized in your church is not a Christian?

[James B.]

Do you also believe that someone who does not get baptized in your church is not a Christian?
I don't have a church. The church belongs to Jesus. I will say that Gods word teaches that one must be baptized for the remission of sins to be a christian. Traderumor I respect your views and agree with some of them. I hope we can respectfully disagree and still discuss the bible.

[WVRed]

Do you also believe that someone who does not get baptized in your church is not a Christian?

Traderumor, I know you have mentioned in the past that you are Baptist(or you sent your kids to a Baptist school, I cant remember which), but I know some churches(my grandparents, for example) whos church basically carries that view.

I wouldnt try to stereotype denominations. If anything, ive seen Campbellites who believe different from others in the Church of Christ community, same way with Baptists/Methodists etc.

[traderumor]

From Charles H. Spurgeon's Morning and Evening Devotional. He just had a way of saying things, in this case about Christ alone for salvation:


July 14

Morning
“If thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.”
- Exo_20:25
God’s altar was to be built of unhewn stones, that no trace of human skill or labour might be seen upon it. Human wisdom delights to trim and arrange the doctrines of the cross into a system more artificial and more congenial with the depraved tastes of fallen nature; instead, however, of improving the gospel carnal wisdom pollutes it, until it becomes another gospel, and not the truth of God at all. All alterations and amendments of the Lord’s own Word are defilements and pollutions. The proud heart of man is very anxious to have a hand in the justification of the soul before God; preparations for Christ are dreamed of, humblings and repentings are trusted in, good works are cried up, natural ability is much vaunted, and by all means the attempt is made to lift up human tools upon the divine altar. It were well if sinners would remember that so far from perfecting the Saviour’s work, their carnal confidences only pollute and dishonour it. The Lord alone must be exalted in the work of atonement, and not a single mark of man’s chisel or hammer will be endured. There is an inherent blasphemy in seeking to add to what Christ Jesus in His dying moments declared to be finished, or to improve that in which the Lord Jehovah finds perfect satisfaction. Trembling sinner, away with thy tools, and fall upon thy knees in humble supplication; and accept the Lord Jesus to be the altar of thine atonement, and rest in him alone.
Many professors may take warning from this morning’s text as to the doctrines which they believe. There is among Christians far too much inclination to square and reconcile the truths of revelation; this is a form of irreverence and unbelief, let us strive against it, and receive truth as we find it; rejoicing that the doctrines of the Word are unhewn stones, and so are all the more fit to build an altar for the Lord.

[traderumor]

I don't have a church. The church belongs to Jesus. I will say that Gods word teaches that one must be baptized for the remission of sins to be a christian. Traderumor I respect your views and agree with some of them. I hope we can respectfully disagree and still discuss the bible.I think you know what I meant, but you didn't answer my question. I was just trying to understand what additional views you held, of which the one I mentioned is taught by a certain branch of the Church of Christ, which holds that in each town, only their Church of Christ is the one true local church.

WVRed,

I wasn't stereotyping, just asking someone a question about the church they belong to and that church's teachings. I have spent most of my Christian experience in a Southern Baptist environment, for the record, so I certainly understand that denominations are not monolithic through personal experience. Currently I attend a credobaptist, family worship, Doctrines of Grace baptist church, with the underpinning of the Doctrines of Grace being the most important part.

[James B.]

[QUOTE=traderumor]I think you know what I meant, but you didn't answer my question. I was just trying to understand what additional views you held, of which the one I mentioned is taught by a certain branch of the Church of Christ, which holds that in each town, only their Church of Christ is the one true local church.


I hope you didn't take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to be a jerk. The bible says that the Lord adds to the church those who are saved. I want to make it clear that I'm not teaching that the water is all that saves you. It is obedience to God. Belief is a work but that don't mean just because God has commanded us to do something that we have saved ourselves.

[traderumor]

Another poignant point on the doctrine of election, again from Spurgeon's "Morning and Evening" Devotional writings

July 17

Morning
“Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.”
- 1Th_1:4
Many persons want to know their election before they look to Christ, but they cannot learn it thus, it is only to be discovered by “looking unto Jesus.” If you desire to ascertain your own election;-after the following manner, shall you assure your heart before God. Do you feel yourself to be a lost, guilty sinner? go straightway to the cross of Christ, and tell Jesus so, and tell him that you have read in the Bible, “Him that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out.” Tell him that he has said, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.” Look to Jesus and believe on him, and you shall make proof of your election directly, for so surely as thou believest, thou art elect. If you will give yourself wholly up to Christ and trust him, then you are one of God’s chosen ones; but if you stop and say, “I want to know first whether I am elect,” you ask you know not what. Go to Jesus, be you never so guilty, just as you are. Leave all curious inquiry about election alone. Go straight to Christ and hide in his wounds, and you shall know your election. The assurance of the Holy Spirit shall be given to you, so that you shall be able to say, “I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to him.” Christ was at the everlasting council: he can tell you whether you were chosen or not; but you cannot find it out in any other way. Go and put your trust in him, and his answer will be-”I have loved thee with an everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.” There will be no doubt about his having chosen you, when you have chosen him.
“Sons we are through God’s election,
Who in Jesus Christ believe.”

[traderumor]

[QUOTE=traderumor]I think you know what I meant, but you didn't answer my question. I was just trying to understand what additional views you held, of which the one I mentioned is taught by a certain branch of the Church of Christ, which holds that in each town, only their Church of Christ is the one true local church.


I hope you didn't take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to be a jerk. The bible says that the Lord adds to the church those who are saved. I want to make it clear that I'm not teaching that the water is all that saves you. It is obedience to God. Belief is a work but that don't mean just because God has commanded us to do something that we have saved ourselves.
James,

I would disagree that belief is a work, when one understands that the ability to believe is born from above (see John 3). With God as its source, belief, or faith is just as much a gift of God as grace is, according to Eph. 2:8-9. That is why one who understands "belief" to derive from man has problems with other Scriptures that speak of God being the source of the power to believe, rather than man exercising his/her faith to "let Jesus come into their heart," or whatever terminology one prefers.

It should become apparent that opens a whole 'nother can of theological worms, such as who might have enough faith to believe in Christ. For example, how much faith does one have to have? Is this something we're born with, and if so, how does that differ from the doctrine of election since we can't control how much faith we're born with? Or if we can control the measure of faith that we have, how do we increase our faith? When one believes based on their own measure of faith, isn't that really faith in one's own faith rather than God being the object of faith? And that's quite a can of worms. I'd love to hear the answers from anyone who believes their belief is securing their salvation.

[James B.]

[QUOTE=traderumor]
James,

I would disagree that belief is a work

John 6:23 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he sent.

[James B.]

[QUOTE=traderumor]
For example, how much faith does one have to have?

We have to have enough faith to obey Gods word Matt. 7:21-23


Is this something we're born with, and if so, how does that differ from the doctrine of election since we can't control how much faith we're born with?

No God gives us all a chance to believe in his son. John 3:16



Or if we can control the measure of faith that we have, how do we increase our faith?


Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God Romans 10:17

[traderumor]

[QUOTE=traderumor]
James,

I would disagree that belief is a work

John 6:23 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he sent.It's actually John 6:29. In context, Jesus was asked a question:


(John 6:28 KJV) Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

The verse you provided was his answer, they wanted to do something to "work the works of God," Jesus told them to believe, or respond in faith. But what is the source of the belief? A man's "faith," making it a work of man, which no one can do enough of to enter the kingdom of God and do the "works of God," or is God the source of the belief so that one might do the works of God? In other words, can man, in his own strength (his faith), do the works of God? How did Jesus answer that question? He said believe, or make Jesus the object of belief. I would say it is problematic to say that man produces belief that allows him to do the works of God. That is what Satan told Eve would happen in the garden, after all, saying essentially "eat, God knows you will be as gods, and he wants to keep that from you." Is that really a position you want to take?

[James B.]

[QUOTE=James B.]It's actually John 6:29. In context, Jesus was asked a question:



The verse you provided was his answer, they wanted to do something to "work the works of God," Jesus told them to believe, or respond in faith. But what is the source of the belief? A man's "faith," making it a work of man, which no one can do enough of to enter the kingdom of God and do the "works of God," or is God the source of the belief so that one might do the works of God? In other words, can man, in his own strength (his faith), do the works of God? How did Jesus answer that question? He said believe, or make Jesus the object of belief. I would say it is problematic to say that man produces belief that allows him to do the works of God. That is what Satan told Eve would happen in the garden, after all, saying essentially "eat, God knows you will be as gods, and he wants to keep that from you." Is that really a position you want to take?


Wow! Your comparing what I said to satan. Simply put God sent his son to earth to die for all mankind. The blood of salvation is extented to all who will accept it. That is my position.

[MartyFan]

Just out of curiosity, what is your stance on Christian rock/Contemporary Christian Music?

I think its great what you are doing and I wish you the best of luck. I almost went to an ultra-conservative Christian college in Pensacola, FL(Pensacola Christian College if you have heard of it), but I decided against it after being down there a couple of days. Long story short, it took conservatism to extremes.

Im currently contemplating Appalachia Bible College here in West Virginia. But I am definitely considering the ministry.

If you have not made up your mind just yet consider the good folks at Kentucky Christian college - university - Learnin for the laud in Ashland, KY..I know a few people who have gone through there and they don't act like they went to Bob Jones U! ;)

[MartyFan]

This is has been a rather interesting discussion, sad on some levels that believers throw some many stones at each other.

I felt the need to post a few things...

I've considered myself saved for 5 years, for most of that time I haven't had a church, why? things like this..the "scare em to save em" plan that I hated before I became a believer, the "live your life our way or die" crap that harms more then helps.

I don't know who gets to go where when they die, God does, I go by what WVRed posted, that Jesus is the way to heaven, he died for my sins and I'm free, but you know what? I could be wrong, I don't think I am but it's a chance, we'll find out at the end won't we?

I have tried to live my life one way, treat others as I would like to be treated, if someone is doing something you don't like, pray but it is NOT my job to condemn others, everyone is different, we aren't all the same, thankfully..life would be a boring wasteland if we were.

I expect to get some posts about this, mean ones too..for any Christians about to let loose a "YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE NOT SAVED" argument...keep it..I laugh at stuff like that, I know myself better then you and I know where I am with God, for non Christians, about to call me a close minded evil horrible person, you can keep it as well..you're wrong..not sure about this but I think the "treat others as you would like to be treated" works in any walk of life, you think my belief is crap, that's fine, I don't mind one bit.

Everyone to me is on their own road, you can't force someone to follow yours.

..and Good Luck again Rychian :)

BINGO!

Only God can convict, draw and save...nothiing we do will ever convince anyone to accept him...not even Billy Grham proped up on a stage with 800 vs. of "Just as I am" being sung...everything we do is a constant indictment of Him...why? Because we focus on all the little petty stuff that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

We buld programs and systems and buildings instead of meeting needs and building people.

We damn everyone who isn't convinced to believe the same way we believe...and remove ourselves from being able to have any influence with them through friendship, kindness and love. Instead, we place them in a pile for the "unclean" and we hang out with the sinners who call themselves clean.

The church is a great place to be introduced to Jesus...I just hope people don't think HE acts the way the church acts....I am talking about our attitude...I am talking about the fact that we are more concerned with being RIGHT than we are in being correct and useful to God to be a witness of his neverending love and the hope that we now have through Christ.

I am in a lot of churches every year...most of them RETROBLOW MASSIVELY!!!

When it all comes down to the real point...Our hearts should break, we should be in tears for those who have rejected Christ...and we should repent for the part we play in damaging the name and reputation of the one and only true God who is found only by accepting his son Jesus Christ as our savior...we, the church, are a mess and we need to drag our collective heads out of our very wide bottoms so that we stop disgracing him. :beerme:

[traderumor]

[QUOTE=traderumor]


Wow! Your comparing what I said to satan. Simply put God sent his son to earth to die for all mankind. The blood of salvation is extented to all who will accept it. That is my position.If you remember, James, one of the first things you mentioned in this thread was directed at me, and you quoted James when he said "You believe in one God? Good, so do the demons and tremble." So does that mean you were comparing me to demons? Regardless, there is no need to be melodramatic, Christ spoke to Peter once and said "get behind, thee, Satan" and false teaching is referred to as "doctrines of demons" elsewhere in Scripture.

The last part, you must have changed your position, because you have said throughout that one needs to be baptized to be saved, perhaps even baptized in a Church of Christ depending on how far you take it, that the atonement was not enough.

[WVRed]

If you have not made up your mind just yet consider the good folks at Kentucky Christian college - university - Learnin for the laud in Ashland, KY..I know a few people who have gone through there and they don't act like they went to Bob Jones U! ;)

Im all too familiar with KCU. Its in Grayson(where I used to live), which is around 30 minutes outside of Ashland. They also are known for producing the Christian rock band Audio Adrenaline, which is suprising since KCU is a Church of Christ college.

While PCC is noted for its strictness(a college that has elevators for men and women, for example), I have found KCU to be the other extreme. However, I believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by water.;)

[James B.]

[QUOTE=James B.]If you remember, James, one of the first things you mentioned in this thread was directed at me, and you quoted James when he said "You believe in one God? Good, so do the demons and tremble." So does that mean you were comparing me to demons? Regardless, there is no need to be melodramatic, Christ spoke to Peter once and said "get behind, thee, Satan" and false teaching is referred to as "doctrines of demons" elsewhere in Scripture.

The last part, you must have changed your position, because you have said throughout that one needs to be baptized to be saved, perhaps even baptized in a Church of Christ depending on how far you take it, that the atonement was not enough.


Traderumor I was not comparing you to demons. I was just trying to show that it takes more than belief to be saved or the demons would be saved. I did not change my position. I just said you had to accept Christ. Being baptized is just part of accepting Christ.

[traderumor]

[QUOTE=traderumor]


Traderumor I was not comparing you to demons. I was just trying to show that it takes more than belief to be saved or the demons would be saved. I did not change my position. I just said you had to accept Christ. Being baptized is just part of accepting Christ.

Exactly, nor was I comparing you to Satan. I was saying that your concept was similar to the one the serpent used in the temptation of Eve.

As for the other stuff, we're going in circles. I've enjoyed the discussion and doing the homework to respond to you with answers that I hope were faithful to what the Scriptures say.

[MartyFan]

Im all too familiar with KCU. Its in Grayson(where I used to live), which is around 30 minutes outside of Ashland. They also are known for producing the Christian rock band Audio Adrenaline, which is suprising since KCU is a Church of Christ college.

While PCC is noted for its strictness(a college that has elevators for men and women, for example), I have found KCU to be the other extreme. However, I believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not by water.;)

You are right...They are in Grayson where a lot of my family lives...in fact...I thought about building a home in beautiful Olive Hill, KY!!! :) We have some acreage down there and spend a ton of time...I have met a few people who have gone therough KCC, not because of a church affiliation but because I do comedy in a ton of churches...and I used to work in the Christian Music Industry...so...a lot of people move around and through that school...everyone I met seemed pretty solid.

[GAC]

[QUOTE=traderumor]


Traderumor I was not comparing you to demons. I was just trying to show that it takes more than belief to be saved or the demons would be saved. I did not change my position. I just said you had to accept Christ. Being baptized is just part of accepting Christ.

the word for "believe, belief, faith, trust" and a few others in scripture come from the same family of the Greek word "pistis", meaning "full persuasion". Biblical faith has two main components... 1) trust or acceptance, that Jesus is Lord with acknowledgement of his resurrection. 2) intellectual content, the revealed truth that is firmly believed and is reflected in the life of the believer. It's a faith that can be seen. It has nothing to do with external sacraments (works). it's a faith in action.

Again- look at the example held up to all N.T. believers in Abraham. He believed God (was fully persuaded that God would do what he promised) and then Abraham acted (stepped out in faith IN that promise...His faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Intellectual and mental assent is an empty faith/belief if there is no corresponding action/change in life in line with that belief. The passage in James is a confirmation of that type of faith that is "dead". Even the demons give affirmation/acknowledge at the oneness of God and tremble at it's implications.

The disciples left all to follow Jesus. Why? Their faith of being fully persuaded in the person of Jesus Christ. They put their faith to action.

Hebrews 11 is the supreme example of people's faith in action.

[GAC]

I think the bottomline (or question), when it comes to one's participation in sacraments is where is your trust placed? In your participation in the sacrament, or in the person of Jesus Christ and what he accomplished for us? I participate in certain sacraments. They are symbolic and are a consistent reminder of the spiritual and eternal significance of what Christ did for all men. For instance - the Lord's Supper (communion). Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of me".

Jesus was very critical of the external religion that had evolved within Judaism with all of it's ceremonies, rituals, and observances. All these are fine if they are kept in their right setting, and one realizes why they were instituted by God. Many of them where instituted by God in the O.T. to be "tutors" or to educate the Jews to the "reality" that was to come in Jesus Christ. They were "types" of Christ. The book of Hebrews tells us alot about this in chapters 6-10, and the superiority of the new covenant instituted by Christ over the old.

And again, all this leads into Hebrews 11, where we examples of the the faith that saves.