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GARed
07-18-2005, 12:59 PM
Houston Baseball writer Richard Justice in his blog.....

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/

July 15, 2005
On Adam Dunn, Pittsburgh and Carole King...
Adam Dunn probably doesn't even remember the play, but inside the Astros' clubhouse and front office, it left a huge impression. It happened a few weeks ago when Dunn appeared to loaf on a play in which he could have thrown Brad Ausmus out on the bases.

Players and management alike mentioned it to me over the last couple of days. They're wondering if that single play doesn't signal a larger issue. They're wondering if he has come to accept the losing in Cincinnati, and if he'd be a good fit for the Astros.

"I'd say he'd make us a LITTLE better," one guy told me.

In the end, the more important issue probably is how the Reds have overvalued him and want too much to make a deal. But that play has stuck in a lot of minds, too.

They're wondering what it says about his work ethic, commitment, etc. For now, scratch Adam Dunn from the list of possible future Astros.

Jpup
07-18-2005, 01:00 PM
Houston Baseball writer Richard Justice in his blog.....

http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/

July 15, 2005
On Adam Dunn, Pittsburgh and Carole King...
Adam Dunn probably doesn't even remember the play, but inside the Astros' clubhouse and front office, it left a huge impression. It happened a few weeks ago when Dunn appeared to loaf on a play in which he could have thrown Brad Ausmus out on the bases.

Players and management alike mentioned it to me over the last couple of days. They're wondering if that single play doesn't signal a larger issue. They're wondering if he has come to accept the losing in Cincinnati, and if he'd be a good fit for the Astros.

"I'd say he'd make us a LITTLE better," one guy told me.

In the end, the more important issue probably is how the Reds have overvalued him and want too much to make a deal. But that play has stuck in a lot of minds, too.

They're wondering what it says about his work ethic, commitment, etc. For now, scratch Adam Dunn from the list of possible future Astros.

best news I've heard all day. :)

flyer85
07-18-2005, 01:02 PM
best news I've heard all day. :) Houston and their smallball style doesn't need such a big K guy and a loafer like Dunn.:D

OSURedLeg
07-18-2005, 01:03 PM
I hope everyone else thinks that too

BadFundamentals
07-18-2005, 01:07 PM
Yes, plenty of teams who have had their mindset on winning/making the playoffs the last 5 years as opposed to just drawing fans would share that concern. The fan-friendly Dunn has been a great fit for this team's ownership/mgmt the last 5 years.

PickOff
07-18-2005, 01:12 PM
I hope Dunn hears this rumor too. Sometimes an ill word said about you by an outside party can cause you to listen in ways you wouldn't to those close to you. Whether Dunn has been loafing it or not, maybe this will be a little extra motivation for him. Can't hurt.

traderumor
07-18-2005, 01:13 PM
Looks like a team is developing its apologetic just in case Dunn gets traded and its not to the Astros that management has something to fall back on as to why.

It looks like another team that doesn't like it because the Reds might actually want good players in return instead of the chaff that teams are likely offering hoping that they can pull one over on the Reds.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 01:13 PM
He either fails or he succeeds
He gives his testimony
Then he relaxes in the weeds
He's got one trick to last a lifetime
But that's all a pony needs

flyer85
07-18-2005, 01:16 PM
Houston has no chance at a playoff run, they have the worst offense in the league, have nothing of value to trade and have serious questions about the future with an aging team and little young talent in the bigs or in the minors. And this is a very down year in the NL. The only good teams are the Cards and Braves if they both can get healthy.

Jpup
07-18-2005, 01:18 PM
Houston has no chance at a playoff run, they have the worst offense in the league, have nothing of value to trade and have serious questions about the future with an aging team and little young talent in the bigs or in the minors. And this is a very down year in the NL. The only good teams are the Cards and Braves if they both can get healthy.

Dont count out Florida and San Diego yet. Washington is still in first place, but I don't think that will last long.

BadFundamentals
07-18-2005, 01:19 PM
Looks like a team is developing its apologetic just in case Dunn gets traded and its not to the Astros that management has something to fall back on as to why.

It looks like another team that doesn't like it because the Reds might actually want good players in return instead of the chaff that teams are likely offering hoping that they can pull one over on the Reds.
It also could be absolutely accurate. Regardless of how good a player anyone thinks Dunn is, there's a big difference between the few hundred thousand he made for a few years and his now one year 4.6 vs. a 9-10 million one year deal with idea that a long term contract is to follow. "Most" teams no doubt look at the whole package before they start forking out that money.

Jpup
07-18-2005, 01:25 PM
It also could be absolutely accurate. Regardless of how good a player anyone thinks Dunn is, there's a big difference between the few hundred thousand he made for a few years and his now one year 4.6 vs. a 9-10 million one year deal with idea that a long term contract is to follow. "Most" teams no doubt look at the whole package before they start forking out that money.

as long as he keeps producing, I am not concerned. He certainly plays hard when I watch him.

Unassisted
07-18-2005, 01:26 PM
Another log for the arb-case fire.

TeamBoone
07-18-2005, 01:26 PM
Whether or not he loafed on that play is debatable. Whether or not he has a poor work ethic is debatable. Regardless, work eithic can certainly be changed.

What is NOT debatable, is the calibre player he is. Work out a LTC and keep him.

CTA513
07-18-2005, 01:29 PM
Tomorrow the Astros will say Dunn wears boxers and they only want players who wear briefs, but if the Reds are willing to take less for him the Astros will consider taking Dunn.

:cool:

OSURedLeg
07-18-2005, 01:34 PM
Tomorrow the Astros will say Dunn wears boxers and they only want players who wear briefs, but if the Reds are willing to take less for him the Astros will consider taking Dunn.

:cool:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Jpup
07-18-2005, 01:35 PM
Let me be serious for a second. ;)

Why in hades would you trade Adam Dunn to the Astros? Just think about that for a minute. How is the world would that make any sense? They have nothing that even closely reaches the value of Dunn. C'mon guys, I know the trade deadline is exciting and we want something to happen, but for Pete's sake, wake up. :help:

Blimpie
07-18-2005, 01:39 PM
I hope Dunn hears this rumor too. Sometimes an ill word said about you by an outside party can cause you to listen in ways you wouldn't to those close to you. Whether Dunn has been loafing it or not, maybe this will be a little extra motivation for him. Can't hurt.Exactly...and the best part is that even though the Reds have thought the same thing about Dunn at times (reportedly), they weren't the "messenger" that needed to be shot. ;)

Blimpie
07-18-2005, 01:41 PM
Dont count out Florida and San Diego yet. Washington is still in first place, but I don't think that will last long.I agree with you on the Marlins. They are a sleeping giant IMO....

Chip R
07-18-2005, 01:42 PM
This isn't the first time we've heard Dunn's work ethic being questioned. There are times when he is in the field that he doesn't look like he is giving it his all out there. Now whether that is because he's loafing or because he's a poor fielder is debatable. One example happened on Saturday. From the Enquirer: "In the third inning, when Colorado broke open a scoreless game with three runs, Dunn stopped short on a ball that hit about a third of the way up on the scoreboard wall. The fly went as a double for Luis Gonzalez."

We've all seen him make misplays like that during his career. If he's a lousy fielder, is he working to improve or does he just not care? As long as he keeps hitting home runs like he has been he's going to get paid by someone whether he's Lonnie Smith redux out there or a Gold Glover. Maybe this is as good as he's going to get defensively.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 01:44 PM
Looks like a team is developing its apologetic just in case Dunn gets traded and its not to the Astros that management has something to fall back on as to why.

It looks like another team that doesn't like it because the Reds might actually want good players in return instead of the chaff that teams are likely offering hoping that they can pull one over on the Reds.

Absolutely. Great take.

Astros want player badly. Astros offer chaff. Reds don't want chaff. Astros start talking about how they don't want what they can't have anyway.

Obviously, no one on the Astros has seen their offense this season.

12 guys on that team with 100 or more PA. Seven of those 12 with OBP's under .330. Five of them putting up sub-.300 OBP numbers. One guy with a .500+ SLG (Ensberg), and he's the guy least likely to repeat.

Window closing. Offense stinks. Really stinks. And they don't have anything to deal for a guy like Dunn. So, of course, they don't want him. Riiiiight...

traderumor
07-18-2005, 01:47 PM
It also could be absolutely accurate. Regardless of how good a player anyone thinks Dunn is, there's a big difference between the few hundred thousand he made for a few years and his now one year 4.6 vs. a 9-10 million one year deal with idea that a long term contract is to follow. "Most" teams no doubt look at the whole package before they start forking out that money.Those who like Dunn's game use facts such as the impressive numbers that he has put up at a young age. Those who don't like Dunn's game start talking about how many times he strikes out, low batting average, that he doesn't hit with RISP and work ethic concerns, and they'll usually throw in that he should pull his pants up just for good measure. Seldom do I see those folks actually present facts, or relevant facts (like BA, RISP) but they state their opinion based on convenient memories. I hope the Reds pay Dunn and build around him.

Blimpie
07-18-2005, 01:49 PM
...Dunn stopped short on a ball that hit about a third of the way up on the scoreboard wall. The fly went as a double for Luis Gonzalez.http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/Seinfeld/frank.JPG Dunn did what? That's MY move!

traderumor
07-18-2005, 01:49 PM
http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/Seinfeld/frank.JPG Dunn did what? That's MY move! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Chip R
07-18-2005, 01:51 PM
http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/Seinfeld/frank.JPG Dunn did what? That's MY move! :laugh:

markymark69
07-18-2005, 01:58 PM
Let me be serious for a second. ;)

Why in hades would you trade Adam Dunn to the Astros? Just think about that for a minute. How is the world would that make any sense? They have nothing that even closely reaches the value of Dunn. C'mon guys, I know the trade deadline is exciting and we want something to happen, but for Pete's sake, wake up. :help:

My sentiments exactly....

flyer85
07-18-2005, 02:44 PM
This isn't the first time we've heard Dunn's work ethic being questioned. There are times when he is in the field that he doesn't look like he is giving it his all out there. Now whether that is because he's loafing or because he's a poor fielder is debatable. One example happened on Saturday. From the Enquirer: "In the third inning, when Colorado broke open a scoreless game with three runs, Dunn stopped short on a ball that hit about a third of the way up on the scoreboard wall. The fly went as a double for Luis Gonzalez."I was at the game game Saturday, the ball hit well up on the scorebaord, Dunn would have had to have been within a foot of the wall too catch it. The left field wall is not padded, it is a steel scoreboard. Dunn had two choices, pull up short and play the carom or attempt a catch while slamming into the scoeboard at near full speed, he did not have the time to turn and slow down to make the catch. In RF the catch could have been attempted because of the padded wall.

Unassisted
07-18-2005, 02:46 PM
Let me be serious for a second. ;)

Why in hades would you trade Adam Dunn to the Astros? Just think about that for a minute. How is the world would that make any sense? They have nothing that even closely reaches the value of Dunn. C'mon guys, I know the trade deadline is exciting and we want something to happen, but for Pete's sake, wake up. :help:I'll answer the "why" part, although I don't particularly want to see the trade happen. I think the biggest reason not to do a deal is the folly of trading him to a division rival and the Reds having to face him more than a dozen times a season.

It's Dunn's hometown team. Plus, he has the UTexas football connection, which is huge for marketing. When Clemens departs, Dunn could fill that void nicely as a marketable persona. Houston has aging sluggers in the Killer Bs, so they would love to have a big bat with Texas credentials in their lineup for the rest of the decade.

Just because Houston has nothing the Reds need doesn't mean a 3-way deal couldn't be worked out.

danforsman
07-18-2005, 02:54 PM
Absolutely. Great take.

Astros want player badly. Astros offer chaff. Reds don't want chaff. Astros start talking about how they don't want what they can't have anyway.

Obviously, no one on the Astros has seen their offense this season.

12 guys on that team with 100 or more PA. Seven of those 12 with OBP's under .330. Five of them putting up sub-.300 OBP numbers. One guy with a .500+ SLG (Ensberg), and he's the guy least likely to repeat.

Window closing. Offense stinks. Really stinks. And they don't have anything to deal for a guy like Dunn. So, of course, they don't want him. Riiiiight...

Richard Justice is the ultimate "pleaser" and "flip-flopper". He takes every side of every issue, and then, however the situation plays out, he writes a column about how he was right. He also makes sure to write a butt-kissing column every week or two about any front office guy he can just so he can continue to "drop his name" when it is convenient. He's simply writing this column just in case the Astros acquire Dunn and either are perceived to give up too much or it for some reason Dunn-in-Houston doesn't pan out ideally, planting the seed for his future self-praise column.

For all of the "incompetent" and "confused" tags that have been handed out to the Reds' FO in recent months, it's about time that hacks like Justice stop criticizing the Reds for refusing to give up Dunn for Brandon Duckworth and Mike Lamb. Thank goodness that the Reds are (allegedly) asking for the farm in return for Dunn, and if the Astros aren't willing to cough it up, they will find themselves as pretenders rather than contenders, and Justice can switch to lauding and lambasting David Carr for a few months.

Chip R
07-18-2005, 03:01 PM
I was at the game game Saturday, the ball hit well up on the scorebaord, Dunn would have had to have been within a foot of the wall too catch it. The left field wall is not padded, it is a steel scoreboard. Dunn had two choices, pull up short and play the carom or attempt a catch while slamming into the scoeboard at near full speed, he did not have the time to turn and slow down to make the catch. In RF the catch could have been attempted because of the padded wall.That's fair enough. In Dunn's defense he does make some decent plays out there but I can't say he has improved out there since he came up. Also, we have to remember that HOU is a very cliquish team. Makes the Reds look like the A's from the 70s. Biggio, Bagwell and Ausmus have all had a big say in the past few years about who stays and who goes. Perhaps one of them doesn't care for Dunn for whatever reason so they put the bad word out in him.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 03:02 PM
Thank goodness that the Reds are (allegedly) asking for the farm in return for Dunn, and if the Astros aren't willing to cough it upThe Astros don't have it to cough up is the point. Bucholz, Nieve and Astacio at best will be average major leaguers. They are not that good of prospects, the Astros really don't have any. Astros had 2 prospects in the BA top 100, Astacio(85) and Burke(60), both are 25 and have struggled mightily at the ML level this year. They don't anything to offer.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 03:08 PM
That's fair enough. In Dunn's defense he does make some decent plays out there but I can't say he has improved out there since he came up. He made a great diving catch on Friday to save a run off the bat of Jennings. Fully laid out.

You can't evaluate OF play unless you are at the game, it doesn't translate to TV because you only see the play near the end.
Can't evaluate
1)did the OF get a good jump
2) did he take a good route

Jr always does 1 and 2 he is lacking speed for CF. he would make a good corner OF.

Dunn gets 1 and 2 most of the time. He will occasionally drop one but he is almost always tracking in a straight line

WMP rarely gets a good jump and almost never takes a straight line(even on routine fly balls). That is why I am convinced he will never be a good OF. It is much more painful to watch to watch in person that on TV.

Having said all that Dunn's future should be at 1B, not in LF. WMP's future should be as a DH.

TeamBoone
07-18-2005, 03:18 PM
Chip, I've read that a couple times... in your post and in the article. From the way it's worded (the game wasn't televised), I have yet to figure out why that was bad. It says the ball hit a third of the way up the scoreboard wall... are they saying he should have caught it before it hit the board? I find it confusing.

For what it's worth, I've seen Adam make some pretty outstanding plays in the field over the past few games; two that stand out, the diving catch to save a couple runs and the foul pole catch yesterday (shown in the game highlights).

Personally, I think he's still a work in progress defensively. As is WMP (who's downright scary out there sometimes).

One last thought. There's no way in you-know-what that I want to see Adam Dunn traded. I've said before, I will be attending far fewer games (if any) for awhile should that happen. And there are two people (sometimes three) who always go with me... they won't be going either.

That being said, if push comes to shove and it happens, for God's sake don't trade him to a competitor within the Reds division. That's just flat out stupid. It'll be bad enough to not have him in the Reds lineup, but it would be doubly bad to have in the other team's lineup for umpteen games throughout the season.

Several people on this board don't like him, think he's overrated, and pretty much a non-productive Red. Of course, most of us know better. Without his bat and his ability to take a walk, the Reds would have a worse record right now than they already do. Can you even imagine what he could do for a team that's on the cusp? I shudder to think about it.

All the Reds need to be competitive is pitching... don't give up our gem of a power hitter for prospects, because they are too unreliable, or an ace, because even an ace is not going to help this team right now. So don't dump him for something that isn't going to help. Do it another way... there are other players whose absence wouldn't be felt as much and who will also fetch those prospects.

remdog
07-18-2005, 03:20 PM
First of all I'll state that AD is probabaly my second favorite Red (after Jr.). I've been touting him since he was in A-ball and I'm hopeing that he will never appear in a MLB game in a uni other than Cincinnati.

I think that a lot of the talk about AD comes from that idea that 99% of Reds fans here recognize the huge amount of talent this man possesses. Unfortunately, there is a frustration factor in waiting for this young man (both in chronicalogical years and even more so in baseball years) to turn that potential into reality.

Also, unfortunately, because of AD's style of play/body language in the field, it sometimes appears that he's not giving his best effort. And, maybe that's true---there certainly have been a large number of people that have said that.

The point is: this guy is a Supper-Stud in the making. The following question is: how does a team get/help him to realize his potential? And, will that potential ever be fully realized?

Rem

KittyDuran
07-18-2005, 03:21 PM
He made a great diving catch on Friday to save a run off the bat of Jennings. Fully laid out.

You can't evaluate OF play unless you are at the game, it doesn't translate to TV because you only see the play near the end.
Can't evaluate
1)did the OF get a good jump
2) did he take a good route

Jr always does 1 and 2 he is lacking speed for CF. he would make a good corner OF.

Dunn gets 1 and 2 most of the time. He will occasionally drop one but he is almost always tracking in a straight line

WMP rarely gets a good jump and almost never takes a straight line(even on routine fly balls). That is why I am convinced he will never be a good OF. It is much more painful to watch to watch in person that on TV.

Having said all that Dunn's future should be at 1B, not in LF. WMP's future should be as a DH.WOW! My thoughts exactly... [and it is painful to watch in person esp. WMP...]

REDREAD
07-18-2005, 03:37 PM
"Most" teams no doubt look at the whole package before they start forking out that money.

That's true. I know a lot of people are going to laugh at the comments above by the Houston people. It doesn't change the fact that Cincy has created a losing atmosphere that is infecting even its young bright stars.

It reminds me a lot of the Reds right before Rose became manager. The team was totally going through the motions. IIRC, Oester and Concepcion were hitting around .200.. Then Pete comes in, everyone starts to care and play better.

It's a legitimate criticism that Dunn doesn't exactly hustle on defense. Any team that gets Dunn right now is going to have to pay a lot in prospects and in salary next year. There might actually be a better value for the Astros elsewhere, as good as Dunn is. For example, spending money on an impact bat this offseason (saves them from trading prospects, may save them on payroll).

But I don't think it's "good news" that the Astros feel that way. I want the other teams to covet our players, not think of reasons why they don't want them.

REDREAD
07-18-2005, 03:44 PM
Those who don't like Dunn's game start talking about how many times he strikes out, low batting average, that he doesn't hit with RISP and work ethic concerns, .

Look at it from the Astro's point of view. If they get him tommorrow, they're really only renting him for 2.5 years. They'll have to shell out probably in excess of 20 million in 2006 and 2007. It's a huge investment for them, both in prospects they'll have to trade and cash they'll have to pay for him.

Some people are saying the Astros window is closing. If that's the case, maybe it's not a good idea for the Astros to rent Dunn. Maybe they'd be better off just keeping their prospects or trying to acquire offense that will be more affordable and/or longterm (even if the player is inferior to Dunn).

Dunn's a great player, but there's more to this decision than just looking at his OBP and HRs.

Chip R
07-18-2005, 03:49 PM
Look at it from the Astro's point of view. If they get him tommorrow, they're really only renting him for 2.5 years. They'll have to shell out probably in excess of 20 million in 2006 and 2007. It's a huge investment for them, both in prospects they'll have to trade and cash they'll have to pay for him.

But he's more likely to sign long term with them than with anyone. They should have some money to play with since Clemens and Pettite should come off the books within the next couple of years and Bagwell and Biggio should as well. Berkman's already signed to a long term deal, IIRC. Oswalt has to be paid but other than that, they definitely can afford him if they want to.

traderumor
07-18-2005, 03:51 PM
It's a legitimate criticism that Dunn doesn't exactly hustle on defense.Says who? He may not be more than an average fielder at this point in his career, but I have not seen any evidence that he is dogging it in the field. Can you give examples that you have personally witnessed and noticed that he was clearly not giving a full effort? After all, that's a pretty serious charge to make about a ballplayer, and at least the Astros gave a specific instance that they questioned. What is your reason for saying that? I watch the Reds, for the most part every pitch of every inning when they're on, and I see him missing the ball in lights, misjudging, but dogging it? Haven't seen it. Maybe it happens in the radio only games, I dunno.

Sham
07-18-2005, 05:18 PM
With the athletic ability Dunn possesses he should be a much better outfielder than he is. Look at his football background and 40 time. I have read enough both on and off this board to surmise that Dunn does not do the extra work that would allow him to correctly play his position, and that is supported by the logic that if he had been working on his defense the last 4 years or so he would be better than he is. Also, I choose to believe TC, I don't see any reason for him to lie about his conversations with Dunn and others.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 05:30 PM
With the athletic ability Dunn possesses he should be a much better outfielder than he is. Look at his football background and 40 time. I have read enough both on and off this board to surmise that Dunn does not do the extra work that would allow him to correctly play his position, and that is supported by the logic that if he had been working on his defense the last 4 years or so he would be better than he is. Also, I choose to believe TC, I don't see any reason for him to lie about his conversations with Dunn and others.WMP is an even better athlete, so what does that say about him?

Sham
07-18-2005, 05:31 PM
WMP is an even better athlete, so what does that say about him?

The same thing.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 05:37 PM
Says who? He may not be more than an average fielder at this point in his career, but I have not seen any evidence that he is dogging it in the field. Can you give examples that you have personally witnessed and noticed that he was clearly not giving a full effort? After all, that's a pretty serious charge to make about a ballplayer, and at least the Astros gave a specific instance that they questioned. What is your reason for saying that? I watch the Reds, for the most part every pitch of every inning when they're on, and I see him missing the ball in lights, misjudging, but dogging it? Haven't seen it. Maybe it happens in the radio only games, I dunno.

Agreed. The guy is 6'6" tall. That means long loping strides- prime to be misinterpreted by folks as "lazy". Big guys have to play under control. They have to. Heck, even players who are more fluid than tall get lambasted because their movements are misinterpreted to be a sign of lack of effort (see: Ken Griffey Jr.).

I'm often astounded that folks simply don't understand that taller, bigger players must maintain more control during motion because they can't stop on a dime or have the same body control as shorter, smaller-framed guys.

That's not "lazy". That's just physics.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 05:41 PM
The same thing.if WMP is a better athlete how could it be the same? That would make it worse.

Sham
07-18-2005, 05:49 PM
if WMP is a better athlete how could it be the same? That would make it worse.

I'm going to need more information to say WMP is a better athlete than Dunn. I do think they both need work on D.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 05:50 PM
I'm going to need more information to say WMP is a better athlete than Dunn. I do think they both need work on D.

Exactly what information do you need? Pena's blazingly fast.

Oh, and what would you consider to be the primary skill needed to catch fly balls?

Sham
07-18-2005, 05:54 PM
Exactly what information do you need? Pena's blazingly fast.



A 40 time would help. Dunn's 40 time was 4.5 or so, and he was recruited to a top Div 1 football program to play QB.

Team Clark
07-18-2005, 05:55 PM
I thought with Kearns having been sent down Adam would pick up his play. No dice. I wish I was making this stuff up.

Sham
07-18-2005, 05:57 PM
Oh, and what would you consider to be the primary skill needed to catch fly balls?

I would say that the ability to judge fly balls comes from repetition and practice. Spending long hours watching fly balls come off the bat and learning where they are going when hit. So when I see Dunn regularly misplay fly balls and TC says he doesn't practice that hard, it makes sense.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 06:01 PM
I would say that the ability to judge fly balls comes from repetition and practice. Spending long hours watching fly balls come off the bat and learning where they are going when hit. So when I see Dunn regularly misplay fly balls and TC says he doesn't practice that hard, it makes sense.

Do you see Adam Dunn not practicing or is that an inference you're drawing from seeing him misjudge fly balls?

And, if you please- Which skill is the most important in catching fly balls?

Sham
07-18-2005, 06:05 PM
Do you see Adam Dunn not practicing or is that an inference you're drawing from seeing him misjudge fly balls?

And, if you please- Which skill is the most important in catching fly balls?

I believe TC, this has been covered.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 06:06 PM
I believe TC, this has been covered.

Why are you avoiding answering the question?

It's a simple one. What's the most important skill an Outfielder uses to catch fly balls?

Sham
07-18-2005, 06:07 PM
Why are you avoiding answering the question?

It's a simple one. What's the most important skill an Outfielder uses to catch fly balls?

Avoiding? I already answered that above. Sorry if you didn't like my answer.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 06:09 PM
Avoiding? I already answered that above. Sorry if you didn't like my answer.

Is your answer "the ability to judge fly balls"?

If so, what skill is used to do that?

Sham
07-18-2005, 06:09 PM
I would say that the ability to judge fly balls comes from repetition and practice. Spending long hours watching fly balls come off the bat and learning where they are going when hit. So when I see Dunn regularly misplay fly balls and TC says he doesn't practice that hard, it makes sense.

Here it is again.

remdog
07-18-2005, 06:10 PM
Agreed. The guy is 6'6" tall. That means long loping strides- prime to be misinterpreted by folks as "lazy". Big guys have to play under control. They have to. Heck, even players who are more fluid than tall get lambasted because their movements are misinterpreted to be a sign of lack of effort (see: Ken Griffey Jr.).

I'm often astounded that folks simply don't understand that taller, bigger players must maintain more control during motion because they can't stop on a dime or have the same body control as shorter, smaller-framed guys.

That's not "lazy". That's just physics.

I would tend to agree with this characterization.

Rem

Sham
07-18-2005, 06:13 PM
Is your answer "the ability to judge fly balls"?

If so, what skill is used to do that?

Uh, that is a skill. Per the dictionary:

skill ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skl)
n.
Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. See Synonyms at ability.

An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
A developed talent or ability: writing skills.

Raisor
07-18-2005, 06:16 PM
I thought with Kearns having been sent down Adam would pick up his play. No dice. I wish I was making this stuff up.

well, Dunn DOES have a +1.000 OPS in July.

KronoRed
07-18-2005, 06:20 PM
He also has that sac fly.

Should count for something

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 06:21 PM
Uh, as I understand it, that is a skill. Per the dictionary:

skill ( P ) Pronunciation Key (skl)
n.
Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. See Synonyms at ability.

An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
A developed talent or ability: writing skills.

Fine. I'll re-phrase to better suit your needs.

What baseline physical or mental ability is most useful in identifying where fly balls will land?

And before you go look it up, skill and ability are synonyms.

wheels
07-18-2005, 06:21 PM
well, Dunn DOES have a +1.000 OPS in July.


Not good enough!

He needs to be more scrappy!

:D

Sham
07-18-2005, 06:28 PM
Fine. I'll re-phrase to better suit your needs.

What baseline physical or mental ability is most useful in identifying where fly balls will land?

And before you go look it up, skill and ability are synonyms.

It's not my needs that are in question here. You asked me to name a skill, I did so, and you asked why I was avoiding the question. I guess I am the one who is having trouble comprehending what a skill is, though.

Tell you what, I have answered your questions as seen above. Why don't you now tell me what baseline physical or mental ability Adam is deficient in that would prevent him from becoming an adequate left fielder with hard work.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 06:37 PM
I thought with Kearns having been sent down Adam would pick up his play. No dice. I wish I was making this stuff up.If the Reds expected that sending away a friend would provide more motivation for another person then they are more imbecilic than I thought.

remdog
07-18-2005, 06:40 PM
well, Dunn DOES have a +1.000 OPS in July.

Sort of like saying, 'that girl DOES have 'great ears'. Well 'dunn' (pun intended :) )

Rem

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 06:40 PM
It's not my needs that are in question here. You asked me to name a skill, I did so, and you asked why I was avoiding the question. I guess I am the one who is having trouble comprehending what a skill is, though.

The ability to judge fly balls hinges on using a particular ability.

You've again attempted to avoid telling us which ability.

Obfuscation is not an "answer". It's avoidance.

Do I need to keep asking you or are you finally going to enlighten us?

Sham
07-18-2005, 06:45 PM
It's not my needs that are in question here. You asked me to name a skill, I did so, and you asked why I was avoiding the question. I guess I am the one who is having trouble comprehending what a skill is, though.

Tell you what, I have answered your questions as seen above. Why don't you now tell me what baseline physical or mental ability Adam is deficient in that would prevent him from becoming an adequate left fielder with hard work.

See above. You ask questions, I answer. Now you do the same. I promise I won't misunderstand my question and claim you are avoiding the question. Seriously.

The Baumer
07-18-2005, 06:46 PM
John from Trent, MI says Adam Dunn doesn't hussle so it must be fact.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 06:50 PM
I would say
1)ability to triangulate the position of the ball
2)ability to assess it's speed and velocity
3)ability to factor in gravitational and atmospheric effects
4)ability to take the above three and calculate the geographic location where the ball is going to to land and how far in the future that landing will occur
5) ability to plot a course where the player and ball will intersect at the same point in time

Chip R
07-18-2005, 06:53 PM
I would say
1)ability to triangulate the position of the ball
2)ability to assess it's speed and velocity
3)ability to factor in gravitational and atmospheric effects
4)ability to take the above three and calculate the geographic location where the ball is going to to land and how far in the future that landing will occur
5) ability to plot a course where the player and ball will intersect at the same point in time

6) ability to stay the hell away from Ryan Freel. ;)

flyer85
07-18-2005, 06:55 PM
6) ability to stay the hell away from Ryan Freel. ;)the human projectile

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 06:59 PM
See above. You ask questions, I answer. Now you do the same. I promise I won't misunderstand my question and claim you are avoiding the question. Seriously.

Ah. Now I get it.

You're one of those guys who says something and then spends the next 50 posts trying to argue semantics to avoid owning up to what you said.

Common message board behavior. But this isn't just any message board so you might want to rethink your current strategy.

flyer85
07-18-2005, 07:01 PM
You're one of those guys who says something and then spends the next 50 posts trying to argue semantics to avoid owning up to what you said.
maybe he is related to BF.

Sham
07-18-2005, 07:04 PM
Ah. Now I get it.

You're one of those guys who says something and then spends the next 50 posts trying to argue semantics to avoid owning up to what you said.

Common message board behavior. But this isn't just any message board so you might want to rethink your current strategy.

No, I am one of those guys who answers the question asked. You are one of those guys who doesn't like to answer questions, as I so politely did, only ask. And when I answer I get accused of avoiding the question. High comedy.

So what exactly did I say that I am not "owning up to?" I can't wait to find out. Please tell me.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 07:07 PM
I would say
1)ability to triangulate the position of the ball
2)ability to assess it's speed and velocity
3)ability to factor in gravitational and atmospheric effects
4)ability to take the above three and calculate the geographic location where the ball is going to to land and how far in the future that landing will occur
5) ability to plot a course where the player and ball will intersect at the same point in time

All reliant on depth perception as the primary skill set.

Something that's impossible to understand by simply watching how fast a player's legs are moving as they approach a baseball hit into the air.

BTW, I'd say that anyone who hasn't noted how much Dunn has improved to his left and right hasn't been watching Reds games this season. He's been making really good catches on the run. He'll improve on his vertical (in front and behind) with more in-game reps.

And we're talking about a kid who has been praised previously for his work ethic.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 07:20 PM
No, I am one of those guys who answers the question asked. You are one of those guys who doesn't like to answer questions, as I so politely did, only ask. And when I answer I get accused of avoiding the question. High comedy.

So what exactly did I say that I am not "owning up to?" I can't wait to find out. Please tell me.

1. I asked a question.
2. You hid your answer in an opinion based on third-hand information.
3. I rephrased.
4. You began a game of "Did Not- Did Too".
5. I finally figured out that you were playing "Did Not- Did Too".
6. You attempted to switch game to "Liar-Liar-Pants-On-Fire".
7. I recognized that game immediately.
8. You attempted a switch to "He Who Asks the Questions Controls the Conversation". If nothing, else, this is a more advanced game than either of the previous two.
9. Alas, I recognized that game immediately as well.
10. You attempted to switch to the game "No...YOU!"

Again, pretty typical to identify the M.O. My sole failing is that I didn't identify "Did Not-Did Too" quite soon enough. My bad.

BRM
07-18-2005, 07:21 PM
4. You began a game of "Did Not- Did Too".
5. I finally figured out that you were playing "Did Not- Did Too".
6. You attempted to switch game to "Liar-Liar-Pants-On-Fire".


:laugh:

Sham
07-18-2005, 07:25 PM
1. I asked a question.
2. You hid your answer in an opinion based on third-hand information.
3. I rephrased.
4. You began a game of "Did Not- Did Too".
5. I finally figured out that you were playing "Did Not- Did Too".
6. You attempted to switch game to "Liar-Liar-Pants-On-Fire".
7. I recognized that game immediately.
8. You attempted a switch to "He Who Asks the Questions Controls the Conversation". If nothing, else, this is a more advanced game than either of the previous two.
9. Alas, I recognized that game immediately as well.
10. You attempted to switch to the game "No...YOU!"

Again, pretty typical to identify the M.O. My sole failing is that I didn't identify "Did Not-Did Too" quite soon enough. My bad.

As someone who has more to do with his life than post on messageboards, the above is rubbish. Pure rubbish. Maybe you have the time and desire to post this nonsense and play these games, but I don't.

You never told me what I am trying to "own up to." Seriously, use logic just for once, it helps.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 07:26 PM
As someone who has more to do with his life than post on messageboards, the above is rubbish. Pure rubbish.

You never told me what I am trying to "own up to." Seriously, use logic just for once, it helps.

"No- YOU!"

Sham
07-18-2005, 07:29 PM
"No- YOU!"

As I thought, there is nothing I posted that I am trying not to own up to. Nothing. Now carry on with your Message board drivel.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 07:33 PM
As I thought, there is nothing I posted that I am trying not to own up to. Nothing. Now carry on with your Message board drivel.

What was that??

Sorry, I was busy watching Pena "dogging it" while almost making a shoestring grab on a low liner.

Maybe if he just practiced more...

Or maybe if Pena was shorter you'd perceive that he did practice more.

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 07:36 PM
Dunn just dogged it on that phenominal catch he made in the 2nd as well.

I can't believe that these guys just don't give any effort. Sigh...

flyer85
07-18-2005, 07:36 PM
dunn sure didn't do it well on that Hairston flyball

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 07:37 PM
dunn sure didn't do it well on that Hairston flyball

He stinks. It's mostly because he doesn't practice or try very hard. Yep...that's gotta be it.

Sham
07-18-2005, 07:38 PM
What was that??

Sorry, I was busy watching Pena "dogging it" while almost making a shoestring grab on a low liner.

Maybe if he just practiced more...

Or maybe if Pena was shorter you'd perceive that he did practice more.

Please show me where I said anything about Pena or Dunn "dogging it" during games. You won't find it.

No, what we have here is a classic case of someone reading something, not using logic, and inferring something that was not said or implied. Then the person attacks the other poster based on what HE/SHE THINKS they meant or said.

Pathetic, and a waste of my time.

Chip R
07-18-2005, 07:44 PM
All right, gentlemen, knock off the personal crap. If you guys want to argue with each other about who posted what, take it private.

Sham
07-18-2005, 07:46 PM
NM

KearnsyEars
07-18-2005, 08:19 PM
Darn! we'll just have to hang onto him

Boss-Hog
07-18-2005, 10:19 PM
The past ~45 posts that I read in this thread made my head hurt. As Chip said, this sort of thing must be taken elsewhere, such as privately, because it doesn't have a place on this board.

Team Clark
07-18-2005, 10:42 PM
He also has that sac fly.

Should count for something

Hey I forgot about that!!

Team Clark
07-18-2005, 10:45 PM
Agreed. The guy is 6'6" tall. That means long loping strides- prime to be misinterpreted by folks as "lazy". Big guys have to play under control. They have to. Heck, even players who are more fluid than tall get lambasted because their movements are misinterpreted to be a sign of lack of effort (see: Ken Griffey Jr.).

I'm often astounded that folks simply don't understand that taller, bigger players must maintain more control during motion because they can't stop on a dime or have the same body control as shorter, smaller-framed guys.

That's not "lazy". That's just physics.

Steel does have legitimate point to consider. Before Paul O'Neill was traded many thought he was a loafer too. "Jethro" sure made up for it in NY.

traderumor
07-18-2005, 10:48 PM
Agreed. The guy is 6'6" tall. That means long loping strides- prime to be misinterpreted by folks as "lazy". Big guys have to play under control. They have to. Heck, even players who are more fluid than tall get lambasted because their movements are misinterpreted to be a sign of lack of effort (see: Ken Griffey Jr.).

I'm often astounded that folks simply don't understand that taller, bigger players must maintain more control during motion because they can't stop on a dime or have the same body control as shorter, smaller-framed guys.

That's not "lazy". That's just physics.Andruw Jones is the most clear example of this. The dude just looks like he's jogging out there as he catches everything, including the moths in the lights.

REDREAD
07-18-2005, 10:52 PM
But he's more likely to sign long term with them than with anyone. .

I agree with you on that. By the same token, it would take a Griffey-like contract to sign him (in length and $$).. I didn't keep score at the time we got Jr, but quite a few people claimed they believed in 2000 that it was too much money and years for Jr.

Maybe Houston is thinking the same thing? They have gotten burned to some degree by Bagwell and Hildago.

I think Dunn is a great hitter, but their concern for his hustle and defense is legitimate. Also, it should be a concern that he was raised in an organization with a losing atmosphere. Maybe not a deal breaker, but it should be a concern, particularly if DanO is asking a high price.

REDREAD
07-18-2005, 10:56 PM
Says who? He may not be more than an average fielder at this point in his career, but I have not seen any evidence that he is dogging it in the field

IMO, he's a below average LF. It's all subjective though. "Dogging it" is a strong word. But the guy has been on losing teams his whole career and been teammates with guys that aren't exactly intense. Look at his friendship with Graves for example. He's not exactly a Greg Vaughn type.

Of course, maybe if he's traded to a winning organization, his attitude will change. It would be hard for any player to be gung-ho in this environment. Sometimes good people are dragged down by bad management.

REDREAD
07-18-2005, 11:01 PM
The ability to judge fly balls hinges on using a particular ability.


I mean this in a nice way, but Steel, what skill do you think is the most important in catching a fly ball?

SteelSD
07-18-2005, 11:16 PM
I mean this in a nice way, but Steel, what skill do you think is the most important in catching a fly ball?

Depth perception.

Players who have better depth perception- lending to better spatial orientation- will be better than most. They'll be able to better identify where the ball is off the bat and be better equipped to identify (almost instinctually) where the ball is going to land.

RFS62
07-18-2005, 11:28 PM
I'll bet that lazy bastard isn't practicing his depth perception.

pedro
07-18-2005, 11:32 PM
I'll bet that lazy bastard isn't practicing his depth perception.

Nope. He's just out in the bars every night distorting it. ;)

M2
07-19-2005, 12:05 AM
I thought with Kearns having been sent down Adam would pick up his play. No dice. I wish I was making this stuff up.

What on earth are you talking about?

Dunn's played consistently well all season. Has he been above a 1.000 OPS all season? No, though being left to fend for himself at the bottom of the batting order surely hasn't helped in that regard and, just as an aside, it's not all that easy to post a 1.000+ OPS every month. That said, at his very worst he's been good and, as Raisor pointed out, he's been a lot better than good of late.

TeamBoone
07-19-2005, 12:08 AM
...it would take a Griffey-like contract to sign him (in length and $$)..

Just curious how you know how much it would take to sign him.


I think Dunn is a great hitter, but their concern for his hustle and defense is legitimate. Also, it should be a concern that he was raised in an organization with a losing atmosphere. Maybe not a deal breaker, but it should be a concern, particularly if DanO is asking a high price.

I've never ever heard of a team concerned with this type of thing. If the player's good enough, I don't even think it's considered... take a look at Sheffield and a whole lot of others with huge attitude problems (which IMHO, is a whole lot harder to change). A few demands, player incentives, and stringent training can turn lack of hustle around, especially in a young player.

I honestly don't feel this is a problem with Adam Dunn, but I think I'm in the minority here. But I sure do hope the Astros think that!

TeamBoone
07-19-2005, 12:13 AM
But the guy has been on losing teams his whole career and been teammates with guys that aren't exactly intense. Look at his friendship with Graves for example. He's not exactly a Greg Vaughn type.

I really think this is a rotten thing to say. Most people have a variety of friends and they are not all alike. This statement is very high school.

And just because a whole lot of people don't like a bunch of things about Danny Graves does not make him a bad person.

REDREAD
07-19-2005, 09:25 AM
Depth perception.

Players who have better depth perception- lending to better spatial orientation- will be better than most. They'll be able to better identify where the ball is off the bat and be better equipped to identify (almost instinctually) where the ball is going to land.

ok. That's certainly a reasonable quality to pick. So, is your position that since depth perception is the most important skill in catching fly balls, that it's difficult to improve beyond the ceiling that your depth perception gives you? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth if you don't feel that way, I'm just curious.

REDREAD
07-19-2005, 09:30 AM
Just curious how you know how much it would take to sign him.

I honestly don't feel this is a problem with Adam Dunn, but I think I'm in the minority here. But I sure do hope the Astros think that!

TeamBoone, I'm just guessing at what it would take to sign Dunn longterm. He's been predicted to be getting 8-9 million this year in arb. When (or if) he becomes a free agent, he might get one of the largest contracts ever offered. (At least in the Beltran/Pedro range).. Jr's contract is actually only worth 9 million/year, since a lot of the $$ is deferred. I think that even if Dunn gave Houston a hometown discount, he'd want at least 9-10 million/year.

I really don't have a problem with Dunn. I could see other people percieving or thinking that he was spawned in a losing environment, not a winner, etc.
That's what started this thread. Some people in Houston thought he was lollygagging on defense. I'm just saying that it's a reasonable concern that Houston fans/management may have. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a legit concern when you are making a trade of this magnitude.

REDREAD
07-19-2005, 09:34 AM
I really think this is a rotten thing to say. Most people have a variety of friends and they are not all alike. This statement is very high school.

And just because a whole lot of people don't like a bunch of things about Danny Graves does not make him a bad person.

TeamBoone, I like Dunn. Very few people are leaders like Vaughn.. but that's ok. Not everyone can be the leader. Dunn just seems very laid back. Graves was very laid back too. Jr is laid back. Kearns seems laid back. That doesn't make them bad people. I shouldn't have brought Graves into the conversation earlier, because that is an emotional hot button here. Jr would've been a better example. Again, being laid back doesn't make him a bad person. It depends what Houston is looking for. Some teams are a bigger believer in chemistry/leadership or whatever and want it out of their highest priced guys. Some people think it's meaningless, and OPS is the only thing that matters. Personally, I'm in the middle.

traderumor
07-19-2005, 10:18 AM
Any talk of Dunn dogging it should be at the "consider the source" (directed at the writer, not any posters, BTW) level at this point. Last night he played about as good a left field as one could play, which if he doesn't, the score is more like 12-13 to 4. Not much consolation, but he did save runs last night with some fine plays. Let the Astros make their excuses. They are on the road to nowhere just as much as we are, but we still have Dunn under our control and they don't. We can trade him or we can sign him, or we can go to arbitration with him two more times.

So :p: Houston Astros, continue to worship from afar.

SteelSD
07-19-2005, 10:29 AM
ok. That's certainly a reasonable quality to pick. So, is your position that since depth perception is the most important skill in catching fly balls, that it's difficult to improve beyond the ceiling that your depth perception gives you? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth if you don't feel that way, I'm just curious.

My position is that objects in flight are much easier to jugde on the horizontal plane (i.e. to your right and to your left). Balls hit straight at you (either in front of you or behind you) are more difficult to judge. In fact, I doubt there's a person here who hasn't had a ball hit at them and went, "Oh...crap..." at least once.

I've seen tremendous improvment in Dunn's ability to track down balls to his left and his right. He's also improving on his ability to track down balls hit straight at him and/or over his head (see: last night).

But because there's still an issue here and an issue there on balls hit at him, the perception is going to be that he stinks, will continue to stink, and doesn't work hard enough to not stink. I think that's an inaccurate perception and partly driven by the fact that he's 6'6" tall, has long strides, and appears to be not running hard when he is, in fact, running hard.

You put a pesky 5'10" guy out there who has the same issue with balls hit at him and the perception tends to be that he's working really hard to improve and that there's no effort issue whatsoever because his legs are moving really fast while he approaches the ball.

Pena has real issues with balls hit at him. He's actually behind Dunn in his development in dealing with those baseballs.

And yes, if you have issues with depth perception you're going to have a very difficult time fielding fly balls. Some guys get moved to DH because they can't handle fly balls or throws coming at them from infielders.