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WVRed
07-22-2005, 06:41 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/games/2005-07-20-gta-sex_x.htm

The video game industry on Wednesday changed to adults-only the rating of "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas," a best-selling title in which explicit sexual content can be unlocked with an Internet download.

The best-selling video game, which centers on gang violence, was being pulled from some shelves and slapped with a more restrictive "Adults Only" rating Wednesday after an investigation concluded that explicit sexual content could be unlocked on the game.

The producer of the game, Rockstar Games, said it had ceased production of GTA and was manufacturing a version without the sexual content.

The company's decision comes after heated pressure from politicians, parents groups and an investigation by the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB), the ratings board for the video game industry.

The ESRB ruled that retailers had to change the game's rating from "M," which "may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older," to an "AO," which some stores refuse to carry.

"We're pulling the game off the shelf until the new version comes," says Julius Chatmon, manager of a GameStop store in Alexandria, Va. "We're not allowed to sell it at all, not even to adults." Calls to the Texas-based GameStop Corp., which operates 1,908 retail stores, were not returned Wednesday.

Controversy over the game erupted earlier this month when players began downloading an Internet "mod" that allowed them to see the sexual material on GTA's PC version. "Mods" are popular programs that allow players to alter characters and scenes.

The problem, says ESRB president Patricia Vance, "is that this mod was unlocking material that was already hidden on the game," and not created by a third party.

"We were never informed that there were these kinds of scenes on the game, even if they were never intended to be discovered by players," she says.

Officials with Rockstar and its parent corporation, Take-Two Interactive, could not be reached for comment. But on the companies' Web site, Take-Two president Paul Eibeler issued a statement that the "mod" was unauthorized.

But politicians and video game officials blasted the company for putting hidden content on the game, which has sold more than 5 million units since its release last fall.

"So many parents already feel like they are fighting a battle against violence and sexually explicit material with their hands tied behind their backs," Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., said in a statement Wednesday. "We need companies to be responsible, and we need rating systems that work."

Sean Bersell of the Video Software Dealers Association says that video gamemakers often are compelled to "lock away" content that they feel will give the game an undesired rating. "But it's a dangerous practice. If they put it on the game, someone is going to figure out how to find it."

Unassisted
07-22-2005, 06:46 PM
I hope Rockstar Games gets sued by the big retailers that sold this game. Even though the content in question wasn't accessible to ordinary users, it should have been purged completely from the final product. That sounds like negligence to me.

Michael Allred
07-22-2005, 07:55 PM
People, people, people. Get a life. It's just a video game.

Parents? Do your friggin job. Video games are not the problem though it's a good distraction from the following;

Childhood obesity, drug use, alcohol use, teen pregnancy, substandard performance in school, bullying, etc etc etc.

but hey, a sex scene in a video game is the worst of all. Right?

Ravenlord
07-22-2005, 08:28 PM
People, people, people. Get a life. It's just a video game.

Parents? Do your friggin job. Video games are not the problem though it's a good distraction from the following;

Childhood obesity, drug use, alcohol use, teen pregnancy, substandard performance in school, bullying, etc etc etc.

but hey, a sex scene in a video game is the worst of all. Right? :beerme:

WVRed
07-22-2005, 08:36 PM
Video games are not the problem

Using your examples-


Childhood obesity

Think its possible that the kid might be eating a Little Debbie or a Twinkie while playing the game? Not to mention the lack of exercise that comes from playing(unless its one of those dance games).


drug use, alcohol use, teen pregnancy

With a video game like GTA portraying drugs, sex, and alcohol in such a positive light, what kind of influence does that portray to the child playing the game?


substandard performance in school

I would think sitting in front of a television playing video games all day and not studying would hurt a child academically rather than help him.


but hey, a sex scene in a video game is the worst of all. Right?

Dont get me wrong, im not exactly thrilled the game was pulled. But at the same time, if you are going to pull GTA, there are plenty of other games out there that are equal or worse with "M" ratings.

Didnt Playboy:The Mansion get a Mature rating? Same with Leisure Pad Larry, where the goal is to try and score. There was a game for X-box where it featured topless volleyball as well, but I cant recall the name.

GTA is clearly being labeled the scapegoat, and there are equal or worse things out there.

Ravenlord
07-22-2005, 10:06 PM
where's the correlation?

as entertainment has 'degenerated,' American drug rates, violence, underage drinking have all gone down over the last 20 years.

Unassisted
07-22-2005, 11:04 PM
but hey, a sex scene in a video game is the worst of all. Right?I'm not personally offended by the sex scene. I've actually seen it on the web and it's not that explicit. It was careless of the company that produceed the game to leave it in there and I am sure that the big retailers will make them pay. Not because the officers of the corporation are offended, but because this will offend the sensibilities of many of the communities from which they make their money.

Honestly, I'm more offended by the violence in this particular series of games. I would keep my kids away from it because of the violence, not because of the buried sex scene. Community standards are screwed up. We don't want violence in our communities, yet we tolerate it in our entertainment.

Ravenlord
07-22-2005, 11:21 PM
I'm not personally offended by the sex scene. I've actually seen it on the web and it's not that explicit. It was careless of the company that produceed the game to leave it in there and I am sure that the big retailers will make them pay. Not because the officers of the corporation are offended, but because this will offend the sensibilities of many of the communities from which they make their money.

Honestly, I'm more offended by the violence in this particular series of games. I would keep my kids away from it because of the violence, not because of the buried sex scene. Community standards are screwed up. We don't want violence in our communities, yet we tolerate it in our entertainment.

:)

where's the correlation?

as entertainment has 'degenerated,' American drug rates, violence, underage drinking have all gone down over the last 20 years.

Johnny Footstool
07-23-2005, 02:11 AM
I think it's hilarious that a video game in which you can pick up a chainsaw and behead people on the street is being pulled for a sex scene.

BTW - it should have been rated Adults Only from the beginning.

Cedric
07-23-2005, 02:42 AM
I killed a man once because I saw Megatron kill Optimus Prime.

LvJ
07-23-2005, 07:11 AM
I killed a man once because I saw Megatron kill Optimus Prime. Interestnig. I did the same thing. We should form an alliance, and kill Hiliary Clinton. :dunno:

Ibleedblue
07-23-2005, 07:25 AM
I once stabbed a man in the chest with a wooden stake because he had blonde hair and a fake british accent.

RFS62
07-23-2005, 07:36 AM
I'll bet Kenny Rogers plays this game.

RedsBaron
07-23-2005, 07:39 AM
I'll bet Kenny Rogers plays this game.
Does the game allow players to use chainsaws to behead cameramen?

LvJ
07-23-2005, 08:36 AM
Does the game allow players to use chainsaws to behead cameramen? Actually, it's a possibility. There's a "Hollywood" in the game. :dancingco

All this talk makes me want to fire the game up again. :dunno:

Unassisted
07-23-2005, 09:15 AM
where's the correlation?

as entertainment has 'degenerated,' American drug rates, violence, underage drinking have all gone down over the last 20 years.Almost 20 years ago now, I took a grad school class from the country's foremost expert on the effects of media violence, George Comstock. He published a compendium of studies that were done on the subject. There were hundreds of them. The bottom line of his work on the compendium is that you can find studies that demonstrate a connection and you can find studies that make it appear as if there is no connection. The connection is inconclusive, and highly dependent on the design of the study. I choose to believe that there is a connection and I act accordingly where my children are concerned.

Redsfaithful
07-23-2005, 01:18 PM
It was rated M for mature, which is like the R rating for video games (17+).

Michael Allred
07-23-2005, 07:33 PM
Using your examples-



Think its possible that the kid might be eating a Little Debbie or a Twinkie while playing the game? Not to mention the lack of exercise that comes from playing(unless its one of those dance games).

Those "Little Debbie" snack breaks can come during TV viewing, DVD watching, internet surfing and yes, book reading. How about mom and pop telling their kids to "go outside and play" for a change?




With a video game like GTA portraying drugs, sex, and alcohol in such a positive light, what kind of influence does that portray to the child playing the game?

Since when did GTA portray that stuff in a "positive light"? Have you ever played it? If so, what version 'cuz there isn't a damn thing positive in it.

and if a VIDEO GAME has more influence on a kid than their parents, whose fault is that? Say it with me: The parents. Piece of advice, if a video game actually has a CRIME in the title, it might not be the ideal thing for little johnny.




I would think sitting in front of a television playing video games all day and not studying would hurt a child academically rather than help him.

Watching TV, DVDs, internet, comic books, etc would help either.
This is where mommy and daddy insist on homework being done.



Dont get me wrong, im not exactly thrilled the game was pulled. But at the same time, if you are going to pull GTA, there are plenty of other games out there that are equal or worse with "M" ratings.

Didnt Playboy:The Mansion get a Mature rating? Same with Leisure Pad Larry, where the goal is to try and score. There was a game for X-box where it featured topless volleyball as well, but I cant recall the name.

GTA is clearly being labeled the scapegoat, and there are equal or worse things out there.

People love them some scapegoats.

Personally, I find GTA harmless, then again I'm 29 years old. However I watched violent horror movies as a kid and I'm not running around in a hockey mask.

I say PATOOEY to all this "entertainment makes kids violent" bologna.

Unassisted
07-26-2005, 10:24 PM
Just thought I'd throw this article from a videogames site into the mix for its statistical analysis of the connection between youth violence and video games. It still doesn't make me doubt the connection, but it is food for thought.
The Truth About Violent Youth and Video Games (http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/violence.htm)

redsrule2500
07-27-2005, 03:09 AM
The ESRB is full of crap anyway, it's not like it's a FOR SURE thing that they have everything in the game. The ESRB gets mailed a video of the "Most Violent", "Most Sexual", "Most Offensive", etc.etc. stuff in the game BY THE PEOPLE THAT MADE IT. They don't actually play through every game like many people think. ESRB = Worthless. I only use it to see if the game is in level A (Kids) or Level B (Older People) lol.

People are blowing this outta proportion, and anyone that lets their kids play a game like this is stupid anyway - the probably wouldn't care about a sex scene :laugh:
Also...
M = 17+
AO = 18+

WOW! A whole year difference! If you were 17 and bought this, you might have gotten 18 year old content.
It's like people want to be controlled by the companies and ratings and government - make your own decisions, and don't be freaking out because a game that already has hookers, death, destruction, and driveby shootings now has sex if you patch it.

WVRed
07-27-2005, 09:18 AM
Actually, you can buy rated M games if you are under 17. AO on the other hand is a different story.

Roy Tucker
07-27-2005, 10:04 AM
Video games are always a tough call for me as a parent.

My son loves video games but my daughters don't really care a lot about them (which is pretty typical I think). I don't have time to screen each and every game that comes along so I rely heavily upon the ESRB ratings to give me a feel for the general tenor of a game. They do a pretty good job of rating games.

My wife and I held the ESRB Everyone and Teen lines with my son for quite a while. Of course, he was never too happy about it and he did get tastes of more mature games at friends houses or when a game got snuck into our house. But, at our house, it had to be rated age-appropriate to get purchased. If it got purchased under the radar and I found out, it got pitched (to much wailing and gnashing of teeth). I think that happened twice and Zach got the message.

Around about the age of 15, the whole Mature-rated game thing came up when he started pressing hard. I started to dig pretty heavily into ESRB ratings and tried very hard to understand all of their content descriptor terminology and what that translated to into games. The ESRB does a thorough job and sometimes goes a little overboard in their ratings. But that's OK, I'd rather they go over than under (like movie ratings are now but that's a whole 'nuther story).

So, about 15, I let an M game into the house (I think it was Halo). I watched Zach and his pals play a rented copy for a while and decided it was "OK". He didn't turn into a homicidal maniac or kill me in my sleep. Over the past couple years (he's 17 now), a few more M games have come into the house. We follow the same drill, rent the game, let Dad watch them play for a while, if he's OK with it, then buy it if you want.

The nice thing is, this path has formed his frame of judgement for his own choosing of video games. He tends to like the cartoony, goofy games and doesn't care much for the heavy gore, adult-themed games. He didn't even consider getting GTA San Andreas and doesn't like it or any games of that ilk.

And I don't give a rats patoot if they've proved a correlation between video violence and real violence. The litmus test is if the game offends me (and I'm pretty broad-minded) or if it portrays core values that I truly don't approve of. I give my kids increasing degrees of freedoms and if they show maturity and good judgement they get more, but underneath it all, our house is a benevolent dictatorship and what I say *goes*. And woe to the child that crosses up Dad. That is a true come-to-Jesus time and they see a side of me that they soon find they don't want to ever see again.

And at one of my son's video game parties I've watched GTA San Andreas (at many of my son's and daughters gatherings, I hang for a few minutes and let my presence in the house be known) and I thought it was garbage. The next day, I told Zach I didn't like it and don't want to see it around again (as I would a hard-R rated movie or if someone brought over a stack of porn magazines). Zach and his friends understood (they are good kids and understand the house rules) and I haven't see it since.

Johnny Footstool
07-27-2005, 11:28 AM
If you are really concerned about the "hidden" content of games like GTA, you can easily google up some web sites that contain walkthroughs, codes, and cheats. These things might give you a little more insight into what the game is really about.

NastyBoys1990
07-29-2005, 11:07 PM
People, people, people. Get a life. It's just a video game.

Parents? Do your friggin job. Video games are not the problem though it's a good distraction from the following;

Childhood obesity, drug use, alcohol use, teen pregnancy, substandard performance in school, bullying, etc etc etc.

but hey, a sex scene in a video game is the worst of all. Right?


exactly, is called a VIDEO GAME, not Life or Death, its a game meant to have fun, it doesn't influence, or shouldn't influence people to do such things, its not negligence by the companies, its by the moronic parents, then they ***** and moan that their kids are emulating what the saw in a game, its not the gams fault at all, just like what happened with the TV Show Jackass, people blamed the show for their injuries, when it gives a warning which is right here:

http://jackass.ulie.nl/_downloads/downloads/background_warning/warning_1152x864.jpg


its not the shows/games fault, its the idiots that are trying to emulate these acts, so before this catholic groups start attacking the shows, look at the idots watching the stuff that try to emulate it


if u can't read that one, heres a better look at it:

http://www.alvilag.hu/darkgods/jackass/warning.JPG

pedro
07-30-2005, 07:21 PM
I wonder how many of the people in this thread that think this is stupid actually have kids. Honestly, I'm just curious.

RFS62
07-30-2005, 07:22 PM
I wonder how many of the people in this thread that think this is stupid actually have kids. Honestly, I'm just curious.


excellent question.

MWM
07-30-2005, 07:34 PM
I wonder how many of the people in this thread that think this is stupid actually have kids. Honestly, I'm just curious.

As i was reading this thread I was wondering the same thing. Maybe this sounds harsh, but if you don't have children of your own, your opinion on this matter means very little to me. Kids are influenced by just about everything they come into contact with. Yes, it's true. If you think the test for whether or not something is detrimentally inflential to a child is whether or not it will make then go commit murder, then I'm not sure how to respond to that. That response to questions like this is irrational, IMO. Until you've had the future of another human being entirely in your hands, then you have no idea what you're saying.

Redsfaithful
07-30-2005, 07:52 PM
As i was reading this thread I was wondering the same thing. Maybe this sounds harsh, but if you don't have children of your own, your opinion on this matter means very little to me. Kids are influenced by just about everything they come into contact with. Yes, it's true. If you think the test for whether or not something is detrimentally inflential to a child is whether or not it will make then go commit murder, then I'm not sure how to respond to that. That response to questions like this is irrational, IMO. Until you've had the future of another human being entirely in your hands, then you have no idea what you're saying.

I don't have kids, but I do know enough to realize I'd never let them play GTA. Doesn't mean it should be pulled from any store shelves though.

Joseph
07-30-2005, 08:48 PM
I don't have kids, so if you want to stop reading my take now, feel free.

I do not believe there is a ratings system that can work across the board. Each parent has to know their child and understand what they are and are not capable of understanding and dealing with. I grew up with some video games [I'm 31] and some were considered too violent [Mortal Combat] and such, but it never had any affect on me. My parents knew my mentality and understood what would be viewed as entertainment and such and what might have an affect on me.

I don't think it's any groups right or obligation to prohibit sales of items to those who want to buy them [assuming they are legal] otherwise we get into censorship and first admendment rights and no one wants that. Parents have to understand what their kids are playing and more importantly, understand their kids mental accumen in knowing what's real and ok and what's just a game.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2005, 09:12 PM
As i was reading this thread I was wondering the same thing. Maybe this sounds harsh, but if you don't have children of your own, your opinion on this matter means very little to me. Kids are influenced by just about everything they come into contact with. Yes, it's true. If you think the test for whether or not something is detrimentally inflential to a child is whether or not it will make then go commit murder, then I'm not sure how to respond to that. That response to questions like this is irrational, IMO. Until you've had the future of another human being entirely in your hands, then you have no idea what you're saying.

I have two kids, but I disagree with this.

Nothing magical happens when you have kids--yeah, you've got to make some decisions for your kids that are difficult, but being a parent (biologically or otherwise) doesn't mean you have a moral wisdom particular to "parents."

In fact, I suspect the percentage of people who are parents that have any business *being* parents is probably no better than 50%.

WVRed
07-30-2005, 09:26 PM
I have two kids, but I disagree with this.

Nothing magical happens when you have kids--yeah, you've got to make some decisions for your kids that are difficult, but being a parent (biologically or otherwise) doesn't mean you have a moral wisdom particular to "parents."

In fact, I suspect the percentage of people who are parents that have any business *being* parents is probably no better than 50%.

So would you let your kids play GTA?

Falls City Beer
07-30-2005, 09:32 PM
So would you let your kids play GTA?

If they were old enough to earn the money to buy it, yes, I would.

But I'm not going to buy them that crap (and I mean that more from a monetary standpoint than a moral one--they only get but a fraction of what they ask my wife and me for). Something tells me, though, that my two girls couldn't care less about stuff like that.

Redsfaithful
07-30-2005, 10:56 PM
Something tells me, though, that my two girls couldn't care less about stuff like that.

Hey, wait a minute ... doesn't the older one belong to RedsZone? You been holding out on us FCB??

Falls City Beer
07-30-2005, 11:05 PM
Hey, wait a minute ... doesn't the older one belong to RedsZone? You been holding out on us FCB??

She broke free. She learned how to handle all kinds of weapons playing GTA. :devil:

MWM
07-31-2005, 12:11 AM
Nothing magical happens when you have kids--yeah, you've got to make some decisions for your kids that are difficult, but being a parent (biologically or otherwise) doesn't mean you have a moral wisdom particular to "parents." .

Maybe it didn't happen that way for you, but for me, having multiple children has changed my entire perspective on just about everything from what it was prior to having children. Sure it's not something magical that happens during birth, but it's an evolution that couldn't possibly have happened without having gone through child rearing. I don't think you'll find that many parents saying things like, "I played violent video games and never committed murder so they must be OK." I don't think many people with children will deny the influence these things have on them.

Rarely do I believe people have to experience certain things to have a valid opinion on the matter, but raising children is an exception. That's just my opinion based on my experience, and I don't expect others to agree.

Michael Allred
07-31-2005, 08:40 PM
Maybe it didn't happen that way for you, but for me, having multiple children has changed my entire perspective on just about everything from what it was prior to having children. Sure it's not something magical that happens during birth, but it's an evolution that couldn't possibly have happened without having gone through child rearing. I don't think you'll find that many parents saying things like, "I played violent video games and never committed murder so they must be OK." I don't think many people with children will deny the influence these things have on them.

Rarely do I believe people have to experience certain things to have a valid opinion on the matter, but raising children is an exception. That's just my opinion based on my experience, and I don't expect others to agree.

Get over yourself. Seriously. Maybe YOU needed to have children to look at things differently, perhaps others do not. Your having kids does not, in any way shape or form, make your opinion more valid than my own.

RFS62
07-31-2005, 10:24 PM
Get over yourself. Seriously. Maybe YOU needed to have children to look at things differently, perhaps others do not. Your having kids does not, in any way shape or form, make your opinion more valid than my own.


Michael, it does give a different context to the way you look at things. That's not a put down to you, or your ability to relate.

It's just an observation, that I happen to agree with.

Something changes in you when you become responsible for another persons upbringing.

REDREAD
07-31-2005, 10:32 PM
I really think the ratings should give more details than just a single letter rating.

Like list exactly what the potentially offensive things are. Put a warning on the box that a sex scene can be seen with an internet download, etc. Put more information on the box, because many parents just don't have the time to spend a couple hours on the internet researching the game (or don't want to). If you're at the store, and the kid wants to buy the game now, it would be nice to look on the box and see what the game contains.

CrackerJack
07-31-2005, 10:36 PM
I think this guy pretty much sums up my reaction to this:

Betrayed By Video Games (http://www.thedudeblog.com/)


As you may have heard their is now a kindly 85-year-old woman protecting all of us. A wonderful grandmother purchased a video game for her 14-year-old grandson only to find out that it was full of pixilated filth. The game was the much talked about "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas". I'm sure you have heard about how you can download, install, unlock, and then view fake nudity in this game.

I was more than surprised when I found out about this. How could someone sleep at night knowing that they had the potential to expose the world to this slime? Shame on you Rockstar Games! You have managed to take something pure and beautiful (carjacking, banging hookers, dealing drugs, etc.) and ruin it.

Back to our gray-haired heroine. Here she wants to buy a nice present for her angelic grandson. How could you go wrong with a game named "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas"? It practically screams good family values. Perhaps her thought process went along these lines:

"Grand" is a good word. "Theft", maybe they are stealing from the rich and giving to the poor like Robin Hood. I certainly want little Billy to help poor people. "Auto", maybe he has to drive elderly women around to cash their social security checks. "San Andreas", well I think Bettie use to live near there..."

Yes, I think our senior-citizen never stood a chance.

If my sarcasm has escaped you, I think these people are so retarded they should have a padded helmet on their head and be eating every meal from a straw! How do you buy GTA for a 14-year-old kid and not only be outraged when you find out there might be something objectionable in it, but you actually file a lawsuit against the company? It's FAKE partial nudity!

This is the crap that leads to a violent society, not video games! There have been many monsters in society that have committed all sorts of atrocities that were not influenced by video games; Hitler, Stalin, John Tesh. Excuse me we aren't talking about the violence in the game we are talking about how you can see pixels the colors of skin.

Thankfully we have Hillary Clinton coming to help out Grandma. Wait a minute. Theft, drugs, nudity. Hillary must not like it coming from a game and not her husband. I'll tell you what Senator Clinton. Why don't you take all the tax dollars you will spend to "investigate" this game and just buy all the copies? Then we can have a video game burning.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2005, 11:29 PM
Michael, it does give a different context to the way you look at things. That's not a put down to you, or your ability to relate.

It's just an observation, that I happen to agree with.

Something changes in you when you become responsible for another persons upbringing.

Sure, some of the priorities change (money/time, etc), but my core values haven't shifted.

RFS62
07-31-2005, 11:42 PM
Sure, some of the priorities change (money/time, etc), but my core values haven't shifted.


I don't think my core values shifted either, FCB. In fact, my son is actually my step-son, he was 12 when I met him.

Something did shift in my psyche though, the day I took responsibility for his upbringing. I can't really say how it differs from being a biological parent, or how it differs from person to person. I know from reading your posts the last few years that you're a good man. I don't have any doubt about that in any regard. Maybe you're more evolved than I am. Maybe my shift was an expression of some shortcoming in myself, that I overcompensated for with Garrett. I don't know. But I do know that it changed me the day I accepted responsibility for raising him.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2005, 11:54 PM
I don't think my core values shifted either, FCB. In fact, my son is actually my step-son, he was 12 when I met him.

Something did shift in my psyche though, the day I took responsibility for his upbringing. I can't really say how it differs from being a biological parent, or how it differs from person to person. I know from reading your posts the last few years that you're a good man. I don't have any doubt about that in any regard. Maybe you're more evolved than I am. Maybe my shift was an expression of some shortcoming in myself, that I overcompensated for with Garrett. I don't know. But I do know that it changed me the day I accepted responsibility for raising him.

Me more evolved? Pssh. Hardly. Parenthood changed me, no doubt, but I guess I don't think I've gained any more moral wisdom than anyone else in the world and that includes people who've never raised a kid and never will. I think age plays a factor in wisdom, but not parenthood in and of itself. That's my only point.

MWM
08-01-2005, 12:03 AM
I'm not sure how this turned into a conversation about core values or moral wisdom. Mine didn't change with children and I certainly don't think I have any more wisdom than anyone else. I was responding to the point about understanding how things influence or don't influence children's behavior, and the idea that "parents need to do their jobs". Being a parent isn't that simple and the more things parents have to constantly be on the lookout for, the less realistic it is to be an effective parent.

RFS62
08-01-2005, 12:05 AM
I guess we can only speak from our own experience. I really feel like I changed when I became a parent, even as a step-parent. Garrett was my one shot at being a parent in my life. I was 40 when I married his mother. In fact, our 10th anniversary is Tuesday.

I went from a life of self-indulgence and adventure to putting others ahead of my own well-being practically overnight. Maybe that enhanced the effect it had on me, I don't know. But it really did change me, and I didn't expect it.

LvJ
08-01-2005, 09:01 AM
The key here is to balance it out. Let your kid play GTA and watch whatever he/she wants, but balance it out with knowledge of what is right and wrong. In my opinion, any sane/normal kid will not be swayed by a movie or a game to do harm unto others. If you allow him to play the game, you must make sure he understands it. Don't abandon him and allow him to develop whatever he wants to think about the product on his own. Make sure he has guidance and a second strick opinion on the subject matter.

zombie-a-go-go
08-01-2005, 09:04 AM
I sold my children on the black market for beer money and dental work.

LvJ
08-01-2005, 09:19 AM
I sold my children on the black market for beer money and dental work. Hey, that's more than what DanO would have gotten. :thumbup:

Johnny Footstool
08-01-2005, 09:39 AM
I sold my children on the black market for beer money and dental work.

No pectoral implants?

Roy Tucker
08-01-2005, 10:07 AM
Change is a funny word. I can't say that becoming a parent changed my core being.

But it certainly did bring out heretofore underdeveloped aspects of my personality while pushing others to the background, i.e. I went from a wild man to a true family man. And it was a bumpy trip.

If done properly, being a parent (not just a biological sperm donor and/or passive custodian) is an all-encompassing job. Your job is to bring all of your powers to bear on behalf of this young person and raise them in a way that will give them the best shot at being the best person they can be. The number of the facets of things you should pay attention to is very high. And any decision you make very directly affects a number people very close to you. Your life goes from a black and white me-me-me world to a world with infinite shades of gray, many layers, and infinite worries.

I can't say my opinion on video games is any better or any worse than anyone elses. However, I do know that it is a well-informed and a well-thought out opinion and it is the one I've chosen to have in regards to my kids. My motivation factor is very high on things pertaining to my kids and my focus is diamond clear and laser sharp.

And for all of these things regarding my kids, these opinions are no longer the academic but are now the pragmatic, i.e. what I think and do directly affects my kids. And I am serious as a heart attack about that and I don't screw around.

As far as video games and many other things in modern day culture goes, you get to see the direct effect of things things upon your kids. It's no longer an academic philosophical exercise. It is how these things affect *your* children and how *they* see the world. And I do thing that brings a certain urgency and immediateness to it.

I think other people *can* appreciate this if they take the time to truly think it out, but I can't say that many do.

So I'd appreciate it if the people that tell parent to "do their friggin jobs" to remember that many of us *are* doing our jobs to the utmost of our abilities and that we take offense at someone out in left field telling us that.

RFS62
08-01-2005, 10:21 AM
Roy, will you adopt me?

zombie-a-go-go
08-01-2005, 10:25 AM
Roy, will you adopt me?

Me first.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2005, 11:04 AM
So I'd appreciate it if the people that tell parent to "do their friggin jobs" to remember that many of us *are* doing our jobs to the utmost of our abilities and that we take offense at someone out in left field telling us that.

But that goes both ways. There are a ton of bad parents--they're everywhere. And there are a ton of good people who would make great parents who aren't parents.

Does the "sperm donor" parent have more say-so in "doing the friggin' job" than, say, a teacher who shows up to work everyday and puts his/her attention and affection toward 20 kids for 5 hours a day?

I'm saying the job description of a "parent" is nebulous, and if you're someone who cares deeply about decreasing the suffering of or even helping manage the lives of those around you, you understand what it is to parent, IMO. Being a biological parent doesn't give you special dispensation--it's merely the call to get to work.

Roy Tucker
08-01-2005, 11:06 AM
Roy, will you adopt me?
We have a spare room in the basement. But you'll have to park in the street, the driveway is getting full. Dinner is at 6:30 sharp. Monday is laundry day, have your clothes down Sunday night.

You now have the job of picking up the dog crap out of the yard since you now inherit low man on the totem pole (my previous position, I get to move up a notch) and get assigned all crap jobs.

WVRed
08-01-2005, 12:50 PM
As i was reading this thread I was wondering the same thing. Maybe this sounds harsh, but if you don't have children of your own, your opinion on this matter means very little to me. Kids are influenced by just about everything they come into contact with. Yes, it's true. If you think the test for whether or not something is detrimentally inflential to a child is whether or not it will make then go commit murder, then I'm not sure how to respond to that. That response to questions like this is irrational, IMO. Until you've had the future of another human being entirely in your hands, then you have no idea what you're saying.

Even though I dont have kids, I agree with this post wholeheartedly.

Johnny Footstool
08-01-2005, 01:15 PM
So I'd appreciate it if the people that tell parent to "do their friggin jobs" to remember that many of us *are* doing our jobs to the utmost of our abilities and that we take offense at someone out in left field telling us that.

Parents like you *are* doing their jobs -- taking time with their kids to see what they are actually doing. Watching them play their games, watching movies with them, watching their TV shows, and in general finding out exactly what they are putting into their brains.

The ones who aren't doing their friggin' jobs tend to yell the loudest when someone calls for complete and total ban of something. "The TV news told me this is bad for my kids, so let's get it taken off the shelves." It wouldn't have been a problem in the first place if the parent had actually taken 10 minutes to learn what was going on.