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Chip R
08-05-2005, 01:58 PM
Bobby Knight testifies that the NCAA has tried to kill off the NIT

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/news?slug=ap-ncaalawsuit&prov=ap&type=lgns

And in other news, the NCAA has banned Native American mascots and nicknames from postseason events.

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-indiannicknames&prov=ap&type=lgns

registerthis
08-05-2005, 02:18 PM
And in other news, the NCAA has banned Native American mascots and nicknames from postseason events.

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-indiannicknames&prov=ap&type=lgns
I've often thought, boy, Native Americans must just love it when the very people who uprooted them from their land, practically killed them off and sent them away to die on resource-deprved reservations then turn around and use their names as sports team nicknames.

:thumbup: to the NCAA on this. Now, if Cleveland would just do something with Chief Wahoo.

NJReds
08-05-2005, 02:32 PM
:thumbup: to the NCAA on this. Now, if Cleveland would just do something with Chief Wahoo.

And the NFL should do something about "Redskins"...I can't think of a more offensive nickname in pro or college sports.

registerthis
08-05-2005, 02:39 PM
And the NFL should do something about "Redskins"...I can't think of a more offensive nickname in pro or college sports.
Believe me, no one woul dlove that more than I...but good luck. The "'Skins" are as entrenched culturally in the DC landscape as the Presidential inauguration.

Jeremy Piergallini
08-05-2005, 02:43 PM
I'm failing to see why Redskins is offensive? By that reasoning, all states in the south should be in an uproar with the "Yankees". The Ragin Cajuns should be abhorred at the nickname. They are nicknames, not meant to be racist. The NCAA can't do anything about steroids or booster's paying their players, but god darn it, no inferences to native americans allowed in the postseason. Kind of like the cops busting a prostitution ring while the drug dealers across the street are let go.

I know why it may seem to be offensive, but are there a large majority of Native Americans protesting this and going to courts to get these thrown out?

registerthis
08-05-2005, 02:44 PM
I'm failing to see why Redskins is offensive? By that reasoning, all states in the south should be in an uproar with the "Yankees". The Ragin Cajuns should be abhorred at the nickname. They are nicknames, not meant to be racist. The NCAA can't do anything about steroids or booster's paying their players, but god darn it, no inferences to native americans allowed in the postseason. Kind of like the cops busting a prostitution ring while the drug dealers across the street are let go.

I know why it may seem to be offensive, but are there a large majority of Native Americans protesting this and going to courts to get these thrown out?
Picture, if you will, the "Atlanta Blackskins", or the "Boston Whiteskins".

Something sound a bit peculiar there to you?

M2
08-05-2005, 02:45 PM
I've never seen the big deal about Indian nicknames (at least the ones that aren't insulting epithets like Redskins). The Celtics and Figthing Irish don't bug me one bit.

westofyou
08-05-2005, 02:46 PM
Believe me, no one woul dlove that more than I...but good luck. The "'Skins" are as entrenched culturally in the DC landscape as the Presidential inauguration.

Yeah but the "nickname" derived from playing in Boston on "Braves" field.

FWIW many NA activists consider the "nickname battle" to be entry level in the fight against discrimination. Falling far behind poverty, drugs and booze, treaty breaking, selling out of reservation lands to corporate interests etc...

Roy Tucker
08-05-2005, 02:53 PM
So, what about schools from states that were named about Native Americans... Can they have their state names on the front of their jerseys? Ohio, Illinois, Iowa, Dakota, Kentucky, etc.?

For that matter, Indiana?

And I think this will just become another jersey marketing ploy. Teams will have NCAA tournament versions of their jerseys.

REDREAD
08-05-2005, 03:25 PM
What about the Blue Devils and Demon Deacons? Isn't it bad enough that Satan was cast into hell for all eternity? Now he has people making fun of him by naming their sports teams after him.

Chip R
08-05-2005, 03:41 PM
What about the Blue Devils and Demon Deacons? Isn't it bad enough that Satan was cast into hell for all eternity? Now he has people making fun of him by naming their sports teams after him.
If you banned them you'd have to ban any team with "Saints" as their mascots or "Crusaders" cause of religion. ;)

traderumor
08-05-2005, 04:22 PM
Bobby Knight testifies that the NCAA has tried to kill off the NIT

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/news?slug=ap-ncaalawsuit&prov=ap&type=lgns

And in other news, the NCAA has banned Native American mascots and nicknames from postseason events.

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-indiannicknames&prov=ap&type=lgns

In response to this move, PETA has stepped up lobbying efforts with the NCAA to ban all animal mascots and nicknames due to the emotional distress brought on by the gross misrepresentations of their head size. :evil:

And I guess that is good news for us worthless nuts known as Buckeyes :help:

Jeremy Piergallini
08-05-2005, 04:40 PM
What about the Angels? Doesn't this put God's work in vain?

What about the Calgary Flames? Maybe I shouldn't ask that.

What about the Vancouver Canucks? Montreal Canadiens? The NHL needs to go on strike again. All of their nicknames are offensive?

My point is: why are we worried about such a miniscule thing in society when there are much much bigger problems to worry about, say, AIDS, Health Care, rising cost of gasoline, umemployment, homelessness, homeland security, etc.

Jeremy Piergallini
08-05-2005, 04:41 PM
The San DIego Padres. I'm surprised the Catholic Church hasn't been in uproar over this.

dsmith421
08-05-2005, 05:21 PM
I've never seen the big deal about Indian nicknames (at least the ones that aren't insulting epithets like Redskins). The Celtics and Figthing Irish don't bug me one bit.

The difference, to me, is that actual Irish people were involved in choosing those nicknames. They convey a sense of pride in our history.

I sincerely doubt any Native Americans were involved in the selection of those nicknames, and as such, they lack that element of choice. The sad fact is that Chief Wahoo and the 'Redskins' logo are as much a racist caracature as a blackface minstrel show. Their existence is a subtle, but powerful, badge of inferiority that seems to be accepted by the majority society. I don't think that should be accepted.

Still, where a given university has received clearance from the tribe involved, and the mascot/nickname is respectful, then I don't have a problem. So: Seminoles, Sioux, Cherokees, Illini etc. okay, Redskins never okay, Braves and Indians might be okay.

REDREAD
08-05-2005, 05:29 PM
Or what about the Minnesota Vikings? Were the Nordic-Americans offended by being portrayed as savages?

IMO, this is a bunch of nonsense. It's a sports team nickname. How about instead of lobbying for teams to change names, someone actually does something productive to help Native Americans?

Johnny Vander m
08-05-2005, 11:06 PM
I am surprised that there isn't more protest towards "Ole Miss Rebels" as a lot of blacks play on both the football and basketball teams, and also the basketball coach at Ole Miss is black. They won't let them wave the Rebel Flag at football games anymore, but they are still the Rebels.

Chip R
08-05-2005, 11:51 PM
I am surprised that there isn't more protest towards "Ole Miss Rebels" as a lot of blacks play on both the football and basketball teams, and also the basketball coach at Ole Miss is black. They won't let them wave the Rebel Flag at football games anymore, but they are still the Rebels.
Didn't they change the mascot somewhat a couple of years ago?

Johnny Vander m
08-05-2005, 11:58 PM
Yes Chip, they did but all that was a gray old gentleman from the south. Thought you were on vacation?

cincinnati chili
08-06-2005, 12:04 AM
This is a step in the right direction IMO. I've done a great deal of research in this area. First Nations persons, in general, still suffer the effects of oppression. And enough First Nations persons find the nicknames/images offensive that I see no reason why educational institutions should associate themselves with them.

Yachtzee
08-06-2005, 12:22 AM
I think that the point is being missed somewhere. Many people who would never think of using the "n-word" have no problem the the term "Redskin" just because it's the name of a football team. Yet I wonder how many people would feel comfortable walking around Salamanca, NY, in the heart of the Allegheny Reservation of the Seneca Nation, throwing the word "Redskin" around? I believe that, if I wouldn't feel comfortable using a word to describe someone to their face, then I shouldn't use it at all. I'm not saying that everyone who does so is "racist," but I feel like many people just don't think about it. But I wonder, if those same people were to spend some time on a reservation (and not just in a casino), and saw how these people lived, if they would feel the same about using that name. I didn't think much of it myself until after driving through Salamanca a few times on the way to the In-laws' house.

Of course, there's always the argument that nobody is offended by names like "Fighting Irish" or "Vikings" or "Padres" to justify so-called "Indian Names." I don't think we're dealing with the same situation. In those cases, teams are named for a group of people that still have substantial representation in the area. Plenty of people of Irish descent go to Notre Dame or live in Boston. There are tons of Scandinavians in Minnesota. But how many Native Americans live in Washington D.C. or Cleveland?

I would possibly feel different if maybe the Redskins, Indians, and other sports teams that used such team names gave a percentage of their proceeds from merchandising to improving the education and economic opportunities for Native Americans. But right now I don't see it happening.

cincinnati chili
08-06-2005, 02:33 AM
I believe that, if I wouldn't feel comfortable using a word to describe someone to their face, then I shouldn't use it at all. I'm not saying that everyone who does so is "racist," but I feel like many people just don't think about it.


Agreed. All of us who grew up in this country were conditioned to believe that "Redskin" was okay. Just like some countries use "Darkee" toothpaste with a smiling black man on the tube, and thought "ho hum."

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-06-2005, 03:56 PM
To quote Bobby Knight regarding the NCAA: "I'm tempted to call this entire thing - from beginning to end - a Mickey Mouse operation. But that would be an insult to Mickey Mouse."

The NCAA sucks. This is political correctness run completely amock. Did anyone ever take a poll of Native Americans to ask their opinions on this? Not likely. (I'm sure some apologist will dig up some obscure survey from somewhere that says Native Americans are seething over this.) This is just more white guilt from corporate "suits" who are afraid at the slightest hint of offending even one person, which could, of course, result in reduced revenue and the possibility of a dreaded lawsuit.

I'm a Catholic but am in NO WAY offended by the Saints, Angels, Padres, Friars or Fighting Irish nicknames, not to mention decidedly anti-Catholic names such as the Devils, Blue Devils, Diablos, Demon Deacons or Magic. And I think the St. Bonaventure Univ. mascot (a fat, balding monk) is hilarious. It's also amazing to me that the people who have no trouble with nicknames such as the Pirates or Buccaneers - when real Pirates were basically thieving, murdering savages who brutally raped and killed for treasure, pleasure and glory - are up in arms when fine higher learning institutions such as Central Michigan Univ., Eastern Michigan Univ. and Florida State Univ. honor long lost Indian tribes with respectful nicknames. How many people would have ever heard of the Chippewas or the Seminoles if not for CMU and FSU? (For the record, I am not offended that the Pirate and Buccaneer mascots have always been depicted as white males when real pirates were just as likely to be non-white as white.)

Further, the NCAA is based in Indiana, which, incidently, is an Indian word. And as someone already pointed out, so is Ohio, Illinois, Michigan and several other state names. Do we banish schools such as Ohio State, Michigan and Miami for thier completely insensitive and disrespectful names? Do we change the name of Columbus since the real Columbus was a slave owner whose "discovery" effectively spelled the beginning of the end for Native Americans? Do we give Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California back to Mexico? When and where will it end?

How stupid is it getting? A few years ago Wright State Univ. near Dayton, which is nicknamed the Raiders, dumped the Viking mascot because it was deemed "too violent" and potentially offensive. The mascot showed a bearded white man wearing a horned helmet; it was replaced by a docile wolf standing standing in a lonely prairie. And we all know of the Marquette fiasco which resulted from the classic Marquette Warriors becoming the forgettable Marquette Golden Eagles. But even that was a little too political for some on the far left, to whom Eagles = U.S.A. = war. This spring it was changed to the Marquette Gold.

Perhaps schools and mascots should just be labeled with black and white bar codes. Surely no one would be offended by that. And the political correctness crowd would be one step closer to its ultimate dream - a completely vanilla society that doesn't know how to think for itself.

westofyou
08-06-2005, 04:44 PM
FWIW the term "Redskin" is derivived from the skinning of captured and killed indians, the skin was then used as Bridles for ones horse.

Neat.

I think the NCAA should change Notre Dames team name for men to the "Drunk Micks" and for women to the "Knocked up Bridgetts"

KronoRed
08-06-2005, 04:58 PM
Florida State to sue the NCAA
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/gen/ap/FL_Indian_Nicknames_Florida_St.html

Unassisted
08-06-2005, 05:21 PM
I wish the NCAA had gone farther with the stiff arm of Indian nicknames. I'm guessing the biggest reason that they didn't is that they didn't want a court case to define the limits of the organization's authority.

To address the other story in Chip's original post - I am amazed that the NIT continues to survive after the NCAA expanded its field to 64 teams. Who would have guessed that there could be so much interest in determining the [edit: 66th] best men's college basketball team in the country? ;)

ochre
08-06-2005, 05:33 PM
I like Native American nicknames that portray those namesakes in a noble light. The name Tecumseh once had very positive overtones to U.S. citizens. He was seen in such a favorable light (after he was defeated of course, similarly to Robert E. Lee) that many people used it as an adjective to indicate nobly virtuous behavior. Some even took it as a middle name.

Having said that, I think Redskins is a little too over the top. I think caricature mascots are ridiculous. I think that Florida State has it right. Warriors is the perfect representation of what Native Americans quite often embodied. To purge the positive (the noble warrior) further denigrates these abused peoples. Lose the invective names like redmen and redskins, the ridiculous mascots, but leave the representations that are emblemic of what the people stood for. Give them some positive legacy. In many ways their lifestyle was what we as the United States allegedly strive for: individual liberty in our daily lives. One needs to look no further than the number of non-aboriginals that, once exposed to both lifestyles chose to live native, as compared to the number of aboriginals that, outside of government compulsion, chose to live white.

That's how I feel about it anyway.

Jaycint
08-06-2005, 08:56 PM
I think the NCAA should change Notre Dames team name for men to the "Drunk Micks"

Now there's a t-shirt I'd definitely wear to the bar on a Friday night. :) If they could iron on a picture of my own face it would be even better.

paintmered
08-06-2005, 10:54 PM
So does this mean that Miami (ohio) can't use the name of their school during NCAA tournaments?

Miami is the name of a local indian tribe.

Yachtzee
08-06-2005, 11:15 PM
So does this mean that Miami (ohio) can't use the name of their school during NCAA tournaments?

Miami is the name of a local indian tribe.

That's an interesting question. It appears that the NCAA's ruling focuses primarily on names that are "hostile" or "abusive." So if Miami still went by the "Redskins" they'd certainly be in trouble. However, the name "Miami" is used with the full cooperation with the Miami tribe in Oklahoma. As I understand it, members of the Miami tribe receive special grants or scholarships to attend MU, as well as other consideration in exchange for use of the name. So, contrary to being "hostile" or "abusive," the use of the name "Miami" by MU is actually beneficial to the Miami tribe. It should be interesting to see how the NCAA chooses to enforce the rule. I don't think banning the name "Miami" is quite within the spirit of the rule.

paintmered
08-06-2005, 11:22 PM
So is using an indian tribe for the name of a school that much different than using them as a nickname?

Is Seminoles by itself offensive? Is Illini by itself offensive? I don't think it is. I think redskins is quite offensive, but I doubt the simple name of a tribe isn't "hostile" or "abusive".

Shoot, half our states owe their name to the indians.

How many of us would even be aware of the existence of the Seminole, Illini or Chippewa if it wasn't for schools and their nicknames? I know I wouldn't.

Unassisted
08-06-2005, 11:28 PM
So does this mean that Miami (ohio) can't use the name of their school during NCAA tournaments?

Miami is the name of a local indian tribe.Are you sure that the name of the much more southern Miami doesn't have the same origin? I doubt that it has a similarly esteemed relationship with the Indian community.

paintmered
08-06-2005, 11:36 PM
Are you sure that the name of the much more southern Miami doesn't have the same origin? I doubt that it has a similarly esteemed relationship with the Indian community.

I don't know. To me, I doubt a Florida school would be named after a tribe that occupied western Ohio.

Perhaps Miami (Florida) draws its orgin from the spanish who originally settled that area. I honestly don't know.

ochre
08-06-2005, 11:37 PM
So is using an indian tribe for the name of a school that much different than using them as a nickname?

Is Seminoles by itself offensive? Is Illini by itself offensive? I don't think it is. I think redskins is quite offensive, but I doubt the simple name of a tribe isn't "hostile" or "abusive".

Shoot, half our states owe their name to the indians.

How many of us would even be aware of the existence of the Seminole, Illini or Chippewa if it wasn't for schools and their nicknames? I know I wouldn't.
that expands on what I was talking about. To me, its all about the light in which the Natives are portrayed. If it is honorific, more power to those schools that choose the noble "Indian" as their symbol.

paintmered
08-06-2005, 11:41 PM
that expands on what I was talking about. To me, its all about the light in which the Natives are portrayed. If it is honorific, more power to those schools that choose the noble "Indian" as their symbol.

I agree. I think that indian names can be used respecfully and honorific as nicknames. But that also introduces subjectivity into the decision and with the NCAA's latest decision, they appear incapable of making a logical subjective decision.

ochre
08-06-2005, 11:42 PM
Early history

The name "Miami" comes from a Native American word for "sweet water". The area was a concentration of water because the Miami River is essentially a funnel for water from the Everglades to the Atlantic Ocean. The word probably comes from the Tequesta or Miami indian tribes who inhabited the area.

Native Americans are known to have settled in the Miami region for about 10,000 years. Its most noteworthy early inhabitants were the Tequesta people, who controlled an empire covering most of South Florida.

Although Ponce de Leon attempted to settle the area in the early 1500s, his men could not defend the territory against the natives, so they kept to the more sparsely populated north. For most of the colonial period, the Miami area was only briefly visited by traveling Europeans when it was visited at all.
from wikipedia's Miami Florida page.

Unassisted
08-07-2005, 12:03 AM
I agree. I think that indian names can be used respecfully and honorific as nicknames. But that also introduces subjectivity into the decision and with the NCAA's latest decision, they appear incapable of making a logical subjective decision.I think the burden of proof should be on the schools to prove that the intent of the nickname/mascot is honorific. Let an NCAA committee with mostly Indian representation from across a range of tribes make the call. Keep most university presidents with their highly-developed political radar and ties to couterparts at other schools far away from this committee.

Yachtzee
08-07-2005, 10:51 AM
Is Seminoles by itself offensive? Is Illini by itself offensive? I don't think it is. I think redskins is quite offensive, but I doubt the simple name of a tribe isn't "hostile" or "abusive".


I would agree. Such names by themselves aren't necessarily hostile or offensive. Done right, the use of such names could do exactly as you mentioned, bring awareness to the history and culture of Native Americans. In fact, as it has been mentioned, Florida State does have an agreement with the Seminole tribe the use the name. However, it's not always the name itself that is "hostile" or "abusive", but the activities surrounding the name, such as the "Tomahawk Chop" or dressing up white kids as "Chief Illiniwek" to perform bogus "Rain Dances" on the sideline.

westofyou
08-07-2005, 11:07 AM
However, it's not always the name itself that is "hostile" or "abusive", but the activities surrounding the name, such as the "Tomahawk Chop" or dressing up white kids as "Chief Illiniwek" to perform bogus "Rain Dances" on the sideline.

Yep, the NA I know hate how their "aborigini lifestyle and religion" was bad enough that they had to be exterminated but not bad enough to not ever mock in advertising, movies, cartoons, toys, etc.

Here's a fine example of it. I have a friend from a local tribe here in Oregon, big tall guy, long black hair. He looks like an indian and he is. People always want to touch his hair and the other day he was on a hike in the woods and a woman asked him if he was indian. He replied yes, she then stared at him like he wasn't human and said... "When I was little I always wanted to be stolen by the Indians."

"Uh yeah" he said......

REDREAD
08-07-2005, 09:52 PM
FWIW the term "Redskin" is derivived from the skinning of captured and killed indians, the skin was then used as Bridles for ones horse.


It's not like the Indians were completely innocent of murdering either.

IMO, the USA has practiced a least limited Genocide and/or colonized/exploited just about every country on the planet. I just don't know why we should feel extra guilty about the Indians (for example, as compared to all the innocent Serbs we killed).

REDREAD
08-07-2005, 09:56 PM
Miami" is used with the full cooperation with the Miami tribe in Oklahoma. As I understand it, members of the Miami tribe receive special grants or scholarships to attend MU, as well as other consideration in exchange for use of the name. .

I'm not saying this is your point of view, but let me throw this out. If Florida state gave $10,000/year to the Seminole tribe, does that make it ok for them to use the nickname? IMO, the names shouldn't be traded as an obscenity (which is how the NCAA apparently thinks ). But if those names are ruled as improper names, it doesn't makes sense that the University should be able to basically bribe the tribe into using their name.

traderumor
08-07-2005, 10:33 PM
Unless there are teams with nicknames like "Waps," "Spics," or "Jungle Bunnies" I think the offense is PC gone mad. There is absolutely no connection between the nicknames and the ideals held by the competitors or their schools. Do you really think players on teams with nicknames like "Redskins" think "take that you white man killing heathans?" or the OSU sports teams struggle with self-esteem when they take the field because people put their "mascot" around their neck on a necklace. I'm pretty sure that only Andy Katzenmoyer ever thought in the middle of a play that "I am a worthless nut," and I think enough exceptions were already made for that guy. ;)

Johnny Vander m
08-07-2005, 10:50 PM
What is wrong with the word WASP? Did I read your post wrong? I am proud to be a Wasp, a '"White Anglo-Saxon Protestant" ancestry.

And I was also was proud to serve in the Navy on the USS WASP CVS #18.

cincinnati chili
08-07-2005, 10:53 PM
However, it's not always the name itself that is "hostile" or "abusive", but the activities surrounding the name, such as the "Tomahawk Chop" or dressing up white kids as "Chief Illiniwek" to perform bogus "Rain Dances" on the sideline.

Lakota newspaper editor Tim Giago once described the following verbal exchange:

“On a recent radio talk show I spoke with a young lady who had been a cheerleader for a team called the Indians. She said, "when I put on my feathers and war point, donned my buckskins, and beads, I felt I was honoring Indians." I asked her, "if your team was called the African Americans and you painted your face black, put on an Afro wig, donned a Dashiki, and danced around singing songs and making noises you thought were African, would you be honoring [B]lacks?”' .

Chip R
08-26-2005, 09:37 AM
Here's something from the actual NCAA web site that folks may find interesting.

http://www.shopncaasports.com/team_page.asp?sch=North+Dakota&str=1&ID=360283585

westofyou
08-26-2005, 10:38 AM
It's not like the Indians were completely innocent of murdering either.

IMO, the USA has practiced a least limited Genocide and/or colonized/exploited just about every country on the planet. I just don't know why we should feel extra guilty about the Indians (for example, as compared to all the innocent Serbs we killed).

So that fact that our granpas "limited" their genocide should make me feel better?

Sorry I don't buy that.

Go take a spin around Pine Ridge reservation and then sell me that.