PDA

View Full Version : Charlie Winburn: "It is our job to elect only born-again believers to public office"



Caveat Emperor
08-10-2005, 10:56 AM
Charlie Winburn is running for Mayor here in Cincinnati, and the Enquirer today republished portions of a religious tract he authored back in the 90s.

In the story today, he states that "I concede that someone could see that and say I'm not tolerant of anyone" but stops short of recanting the entire statement. Elsewhere in the larger tract, he also comments negatively on the rights and roles of women in society.

I make no comment one way or the other but, rather, express a continuing sense of unease that there is a gigantic and ever-growing segment of the American population that leads a lifestyle and employs of a mode of thinking that I simultaneously cannot comprehend and will never be able to embrace.

Religion Embroils Mayoral Race (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050810/NEWS01/508100369/1056)

Don't be deceived by this issue of "separation of church and state." Why do you think Satan wants to keep Christians out of the media, education, politics, government and economics? So he can control their destiny. He doesn't want them to take any part in decision-making in any of these crucial areas. ... Satan wants power and control over the people of God. (Ephesians 6:12.)

It is God's will for the Church, through the Kingdom, to influence the political system by first teaching those in the system to obey and respect the laws of God.

Politics is dirty because the true believers are not really involved in it. We Christians must clean up politics. It is our job to elect only born-again believers to public office. If officeholders are not Christian and refuse to obey the laws of God, we must work hard, under the law, to unseat them. ... Jesus came as King to establish His Kingdom, not a political Kingdom. We must get into control of politics by subduing this kingdom so God's Kingdom can rule in the earth. (Revelations 11:15, 16.)

The pastor and his congregation are under commandment to begin to teach more than their church members. If the president, Congress, governors and mayors are not Christians, we must teach them the ways and acts of God. We must go to them aggressively, but tempered with love

oneupper
08-10-2005, 10:59 AM
Does this guy have any chance of winning? :help:

registerthis
08-10-2005, 11:10 AM
Well, he's the Republican nominee, has the backing of teh Fraternal order of Police, and is a former city councilman. I'd say he has a chance.

<shudder>

westofyou
08-10-2005, 11:11 AM
Why do you think Satan wants to keep Christians out of the media, education, politics, government and economics?

Because of the casseroles?

oneupper
08-10-2005, 11:27 AM
I can't tolerate intolerance!

traderumor
08-10-2005, 11:36 AM
Sounds like someone who bought into the Moral Majority concept way back when. At least he didn't say "Here I stand" when they asked him to recant :evil: Then one might think he's delusional or something like that.


I make no comment one way or the other but, rather, express a continuing sense of unease that there is a gigantic and ever-growing segment of the American population that leads a lifestyle and employs of a mode of thinking that I simultaneously cannot comprehend and will never be able to embrace."Those Christians, they're going to take over the world, the world I tell ya. It's all their fault. Let's make them into human torches and line the palace walkways with them." Likewise, the paranoia that occurs when Christians are either not minding their own business or minding their own business, whichever the case may be, is "a mode of thinking that I simultaneously cannot comprehend and will never be able to embrace." Historically, if we hole ourselves up in safe houses out of fear, the populace gets nervous wondering what they could possibly be doing in secret. "I know, they're cannibals because Jesus told them to eat his body and drink his blood, and they do it, all the time. That's what they're doing in those secret meetings." If we enter the public square, then we're going to suck all the fun out of living by trying to force our morality onto people who do not share our moral convictions. Yea, we wouldn't want laws to be moral or anything.

Oh well, the earth continues to spin on its axis.

traderumor
08-10-2005, 11:38 AM
I can't tolerate intolerance!The first amendment says what you consider intolerant is another man's right to believe and speak, within limits.

macro
08-10-2005, 11:44 AM
...and in this corner (spoken in my best boxing announcer's voice), we have this point of view...


"I pray for this country, and I pray that all Americans become Muslim only. That's just my prayer message to all Americans."

I happened to stumble across this as I was searching google for something completely unrelated...


Political Powder Keg: Has Religious Tolerance Gone Too Far?
By Melissa Charbonneau
White House Correspondent

The Islamic call to prayer is a 1,400-year-old tradition, sung in most U.S. mosques within the walls.



CBN.com (http://www.cbn.com/) – (CBN News) - HAMTRAMCK, Michigan -- Hamtramck, Michigan is a blue-collar town surrounded by the city of Detroit. Its downtown storefronts reflect the diversity of immigrants who settled here. But an influx of immigrants from the Middle East has transformed Hamtramck from a melting pot into a political powder keg.
New Muslim residents are adopting American habits, driving SUVs and talking on cell phones. But many still cling to old customs, wearing traditional dress, and shopping at markets that sell "halal," or meat slaughtered according to Islamic law. Now one Bangladeshi mosque wants to revive a controversial ritual.

The Islamic call to prayer is a 1,400-year-old tradition, sung in most U.S. mosques within the walls. But the Al Islah Islamic Center says they should be able to broadcast over public loudspeakers in Arabic, five times a day, from 6am to 10pm.

The call to prayer states, "Allah is great…Mohammed is Allah's prophet…come to prayer. There is no god but Allah."

Mosque president Ahmed Motlib asked the city's permission to broadcast from rooftop loudspeakers. Motlib says, "Some people, they don't know what time is our congregation, only for congregation coming and participating. That's why we want to call prayer outside."

But the request has split the community. Hundreds signed a petition to block the broadcasts as a public annoyance.

Hamtramck resident Jerry Radziszewski says, "To me, this is disturbing the peace. They understand what it is. We don't. To us it's just a bunch of noise."

Mosque supporters say the Azan can already be heard from mosques in nearby Detroit No different, they say, from Christian church bells.

Motlib comments, "Azan is only two minutes, less than two minutes is noise. Every hour church bell, more than five minutes their bell make belling. So we don't feel anything bad."

Bob Zwollack is a former city clerk who led the petition drive. He says it is an issue of noise.


"Even if they got up on their towers and did it like they did 1,400 years ago," says Zwollack, "where you just had a call to prayer like before, there's not a problem. Who's going to object to that? Yes, they have a right to free speech, but the overall objection was an amplified sound, amplified religious statement."

But the dispute has escalated into a national controversy over religious freedom. The press converged on heated city council meetings, which exploded with calls for tolerance and charges of discrimination.

Hafiz Mohammed of the Islamic Association of Michigan, says, "Those people who are opposing Azan, our position is not a new phenomenon. They are racist! "

Council member Scott Klein says, "The folks I've seen leading this have nothing on the boys from Montgomery, the boys from Birmingham, the boys from Mississippi."

Hamtramck resident Bob Golen protests, "I am not a racist! My wife is not a racist."

Joanna and Bob Golen are life-long residents of this neighborhood, now largely owned by Bangladeshi newcomers. The Golens say they have been demonized for signing the petition.

Bob Golen says, "I don't tell them to believe in Jesus, I don't want them to tell me to believe in Mohommed. The call to prayer is fine, but don't evangelize me where I can't turn you off five times a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. They're going to tell me their god is the only true god? I don't have to listen to that."

The Golens say the mosque is forcing a foreign religion right onto their front porch, proselytizing on public airwaves.

Joanne Golen says, "Why is it wrong for them to practice their religion the way they want to? They can do it any way they want in their mosque, like we do in our churches, in their homes, like we do. I can even sit on my porch and pray silently. I'm all for them practicing their religion, but I do not want to hear over loudspeakers their god being praised in my ears five times a day."

Monther Alkisswanii says, "I think it's racial discrimination against someone's culture or beliefs."

For years a mosque in Dearborn has announced the call on loudspeakers. Mosque-goers say neighbors are not complaining.

Alkisswanii says, "It doesn't bother them because it's not, the call is not so loud. People play music more loud that this."

Others living near the mosque say the daily declarations are hard to ignore.

Dearborn resident Felicia Moser says, "Especially around Ramadan time, they keep to themselves. You hear the speakers every day, every day, for hours. It's just when it gets to the point when it's really, really loud, if you're trying to sleep at night. We've tried to express our feelings about it and it doesn't get you anywhere."

Dearborn is home to the nation's largest concentration of Muslims outside the Middle East. One McDonald's caters to Muslim customers offering halal meals. Shops advertise in Arabic. Mosques line the streets, with more under construction.

Nasser Beydoun, head of Dearborn's Arab-American Chamber of Commerce, says that the sizable Muslim population has earned the community's recognition, including support for a new proposal to declare two Muslim holy days official, paid city holidays.

Beydoun says, "Islam is one of the second largest religions after Christianity, and one of the three monothestic religions, so celebrating Islam like you do Christianity and Judaism. We see nothing wrong with it."

Beydoun expects no resistance. Dearborn schools already grant Muslim holidays to students. One district banned pork and changed lunch menus to meet Muslim requirements. Old-world ways are gaining acceptance, but some see the beginnings of a culture clash.

Michigan columnist Barrett Kalellis says America's lax immigration policy is shifting immigrant attitudes from assimilation to accommodation.

"Great waves of foreign cultures have come over here," Kalellis says, "and they have no real interest in becoming Americans. They want to maintain and set up satrapees or fiefdoms of their original cultures from the old country."

He continues, "They don't want to change. They want the system to change to accommodate their beliefs and customs, as opposed to their trying to change."

American Muslims are gaining political clout on local school boards, city councils, and in Congress. They have support from the Bush administration The Justice Department recently defended the constitutional right of a Muslim sixth-grader in Oklahoma to wear a headscarf in class. And states across the nation are conceding to Muslim demands to wear headscarves in drivers license photos.

The push for concessions and tolerance of Islamic traditions has some in the Detroit area and elsewhere asking, "How far could it go?" Across the U.S. bordering Canada, some Muslim leaders have already established judicial tribunals to enforce Sharia, or Islamic law, to handle family and civil disputes."

What is happening in Hamtramck could be a beginning. A precedent some see as cause for concern.

Bob Golen says, "If it were allowed to snowball. If it were allowed to take root, we would become an Islam nation, and no longer would there be a separation of church and state because an Islam nation is governed by Islam, and not by a republic or democracy."

Others say there's nothing to fear. Tolerance and respect for other cultures is the source of America's strength.

Yet Alkisswanii says, "I pray for this country, and I pray that all Americans become Muslim only. That's just my prayer message to all Americans."

Johnny Footstool
08-10-2005, 11:46 AM
"I know, they're cannibals because Jesus told them to eat his body and drink his blood, and they do it, all the time. That's what they're doing in those secret meetings."

Yeah, not a day goes by that I don't hear three or four people muttering that.

registerthis
08-10-2005, 11:52 AM
Islam is one of the second largest religions after Christianity
What exactly does THIS mean? Conceivably, they could be the 13th or 14th largest religion and consider themselves "one of the second largest religions."

registerthis
08-10-2005, 11:55 AM
"They're going to tell me their god is the only true god? I don't have to listen to that."
How very interesting to see the tables turn in this argument. Looks like when the God is Allah rather than the Christian God, people aren't so thrilled to see His name bandied about in public.

Johnny Footstool
08-10-2005, 11:59 AM
How very interesting to see the tables turn in this argument. Looks like when the God is Allah rather than the Christian God, people aren't so thrilled to see His name bandied about in public.

:jump:

Give that man a cigar!

:clap: :party: :clap:

traderumor
08-10-2005, 12:19 PM
How very interesting to see the tables turn in this argument. Looks like when the God is Allah rather than the Christian God, people aren't so thrilled to see His name bandied about in public.And that is one thing I will never deny, either. I am not a person that believes that the US is the kingdom I am most concerned about. What I think is reasonable for our nation, as a republic, is to not exclude any person from public office because of their religious beliefs. However, politics is a secular vocation, and Christian is not a prerequisite anymore than it is for doctor, dentist, hair stylist, or any other professional we might need.

Johnny, funny reply to my faux dialogue. But, man, CE's statement is not atypical and is the same mindset that has been around throughout the history of the church, and it has always puzzled me. But then, statements like Winburn made once upon a time do nothing but add fuel to the fire.

Johnny Footstool
08-10-2005, 12:25 PM
I understand where you're coming from, tr, but it's been a long time since we've seen widescale persecution of Christians by non-Christians in this country.

traderumor
08-10-2005, 12:38 PM
I understand where you're coming from, tr, but it's been a long time since we've seen widescale persecution of Christians by non-Christians in this country.At least in the form of violence. I know some consider Christians to have a martyr complex, and oral and verbal persecution are nothing compared to what Far Eastern (e.g. Pakistani, Indonesian, Loatian, and other countries with high Muslim concentrations) Christians go through in physical torture. But oral and verbal persecution are legitimate and is increasing in frequency in the short time (about 13 years) that I've been a Christian. For example, my son and I are reading Pilgrim's Progress together, which was written by Bunyan from prison, whereby he was there for preaching the gospel, so I understand fully the difference. Still, both cause pain, but endurable pain because one knows it is ultimately for the glory of God.

princeton
08-10-2005, 12:58 PM
my son and I are reading Pilgrim's Progress together, which was written by Bunyan from prison, whereby he was there for preaching the gospel

always ironic when protestants imprison protestants. Those days'll be next.

westofyou
08-10-2005, 01:01 PM
always ironic when protestants imprison protestants. Those days'll be next.

Roger Williams was a rabble rouser.

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2005, 01:09 PM
But, man, CE's statement is not atypical and is the same mindset that has been around throughout the history of the church, and it has always puzzled me. But then, statements like Winburn made once upon a time do nothing but add fuel to the fire.

As a matter of clarification, I have zero hostility towards those of the evangelical persuasion and respect their beliefs as well as their right to hold those beliefs. I was raised Roman Catholic and attended Catholic schools for over 6 years, so I do have some education in religion (albeit non-evangelical)

What I was stating is that, after reflection and thinking on the matter, I found that I am unable to blindly accept the existence of a benevolent creator that the Bible depicts. I don't understand how people derrive pleasure or comfort for something that they have no evidence for the existence of, other than an old book that nobody can affirmative trace authorship of.

I cannot reconcile the difficulties that exist with belief in a supreme being that loves/involves himself in the lives of his creations. I don't understand it. I don't think I ever will understand it.

That's all I was saying.

registerthis
08-10-2005, 01:11 PM
.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

CrackerJack
08-10-2005, 01:28 PM
At least in the form of violence. I know some consider Christians to have a martyr complex, and oral and verbal persecution are nothing compared to what Far Eastern (e.g. Pakistani, Indonesian, Loatian, and other countries with high Muslim concentrations) Christians go through in physical torture. But oral and verbal persecution are legitimate and is increasing in frequency in the short time (about 13 years) that I've been a Christian.

I truly think you bring this upon yourselves, and I don't feel sorry for these supposed victimized Christians in the US in the least - in fact I think they deserve everything they have coming to them. The church is responsible for more murder and child abuse than all of the abortion clinics combined in the history of mankind. And the Roman Catholic church is directly responsible for the poverty, disease and suffering we see in the 3rd world today through their intolerance and combined missionary nature that prey on uneducated people and create scientific ignorance in them, and then watch them die of AIDS, overpopulation and starvation by the millions, then beg for pennies on late night infomercials for something they created in the first place long ago.

I see a systematic problem of child abuse in the Catholic church, it's disgusting, and the church's hierarchy covering it up.

So if Jesus doesn't want me in his heaven because I don't pound on his book and call out his name every day, then screw him and his heaven - I want no part of it. I'd rather burn in the silly hell the religious types talk about.

If someone can't be a good person, and not steal, cheat, lie and kill, without a diety looking over their shoulder, then I feel sorry for them if they're that spiritually weak.

Maybe some day we'll move beyond the need to control and influence people with institutionalized religion being mixed into politics because Christians can't seem to trust other people without them announcing their conformity to their Gods.

And well maybe some day we'll realize if God was so staunchly against abortions and birth control he/she/it would've never given us the power to do it in the first place.

I vote anti-christian any chance I get, and will sacrifice quite a bit if there's anything I can do to keep this country free of religious persecution, hypocrisy and corruption.

TC81190
08-10-2005, 01:36 PM
I truly think you bring this upon yourselves, and I don't feel sorry for these supposed victimized Christians in the US in the least - in fact I think they deserve everything they have coming to them. The church is responsible for more murder and child abuse than all of the abortion clinics combined in the history of mankind. And the Roman Catholic church is directly responsible for the poverty, disease and suffering we see in the 3rd world today through their intolerance and combined missionary nature that prey on uneducated people and create scientific ignorance in them, and then watch them die of AIDS, overpopulation and starvation by the millions, then beg for pennies on late night infomercials for something they created in the first place long ago.

I see a systematic problem of child abuse in the Catholic church, it's disgusting, and the church's hierarchy covering it up.

So if Jesus doesn't want me in his heaven because I don't pound on his book and call out his name every day, then screw him and his heaven - I want no part of it. I'd rather burn in the silly hell the religious types talk about.

If someone can't be a good person, and not steal, cheat, lie and kill, without a diety looking over their shoulder, then I feel sorry for them if they're that spiritually weak.

Maybe some day we'll move beyond the need to control and influence people with institutionalized religion being mixed into politics because Christians can't seem to trust other people without them announcing their conformity to their Gods.

And well maybe some day we'll realize if God was so staunchly against abortions and birth control he/she/it would've never given us the power to do it in the first place.

I vote anti-christian any chance I get, and will sacrifice quite a bit if there's anything I can do to keep this country free of religious persecution, hypocrisy and corruption.

Wish I had saved some rep to pass around. :thumbdown

traderumor
08-10-2005, 01:41 PM
always ironic when protestants imprison protestants. Those days'll be next.At that point, I'm not sure the church of England would be protestant (if ever) in doctrine, which was why Bunyan's message was rejected, upsetting, and deserving of imprisonment. In fact, this is the same religious environment that caused the eventual "Pilgrims" to leave for the Netherlands and eventually come to America.

traderumor
08-10-2005, 01:53 PM
I truly think you bring this upon yourselves, and I don't feel sorry for these supposed victimized Christians in the US in the least - in fact I think they deserve everything they have coming to them. The church is responsible for more murder and child abuse than all of the abortion clinics combined in the history of mankind. And the Roman Catholic church is directly responsible for the poverty, disease and suffering we see in the 3rd world today through their intolerance and combined missionary nature that prey on uneducated people and create scientific ignorance in them, and then watch them die of AIDS, overpopulation and starvation by the millions, then beg for pennies on late night infomercials for something they created in the first place long ago.

I see a systematic problem of child abuse in the Catholic church, it's disgusting, and the church's hierarchy covering it up.

So if Jesus doesn't want me in his heaven because I don't pound on his book and call out his name every day, then screw him and his heaven - I want no part of it. I'd rather burn in the silly hell the religious types talk about.

If someone can't be a good person, and not steal, cheat, lie and kill, without a diety looking over their shoulder, then I feel sorry for them if they're that spiritually weak.

Maybe some day we'll move beyond the need to control and influence people with institutionalized religion being mixed into politics because Christians can't seem to trust other people without them announcing their conformity to their Gods.

And well maybe some day we'll realize if God was so staunchly against abortions and birth control he/she/it would've never given us the power to do it in the first place.

I vote anti-christian any chance I get, and will sacrifice quite a bit if there's anything I can do to keep this country free of religious persecution, hypocrisy and corruption.Yet the God I follow is in the business of not giving people what they deserve.

Christianity is full of sinners and sometimes believing people do things for their own agendas, advantage and with evil motives, which is why I worship God and not man. Man can never surprise or disappoint me when I understand his nature.

Then, there are times when people call themselves Christians and supposedly do awful things under the guise that they are doing them for God.

For the record, I get angry too, when religious people bring shame to God's name when they sin as representatives of what claims to be Christ's church. But then, sometimes its me that does it with my sin, and I must rest solely on his grace. But man's sin is always man's fault, not God's.

I hope, and I mean this with all sincerity, that none of us ever get what we deserve.

Redsfaithful
08-10-2005, 02:31 PM
Wish I had saved some rep to pass around. :thumbdown

Why? Can you even articulate your problem with his statement?

RosieRed
08-10-2005, 03:53 PM
Here is the whole Enquirer article:

Religion embroils mayoral contest
Winburn book ignites debate

By Gregory Korte
Enquirer staff writer

Republican mayoral candidate Charlie Winburn began the work of energizing his "base" 16 years ago.

As the new pastor of a small church then known as Ridge Acres Christian Center, Winburn wrote a religious tract titled "Ruling and Reigning in the '90s." In a 250-word passage on the political system, he said it was the job of Christians to "elect only born-again Christians to public office."

Sixteen years later, that statement has thrust religion into the 2005 mayoral campaign - and in so doing opened a local front on the national red state/blue state culture wars that defined the 2004 presidential campaign.

Hamilton County Democratic Party Chairman Timothy M. Burke denounced Winburn's book last month as "distinctly un-American."

Burke said Winburn was establishing a religious "litmus test" for public officials.

Women's groups said other statements in Winburn's book - that a wife "must be taught what her boundaries are" - make the College Hill preacher unfit to be mayor.

That, in turn, led to a vigorous defense of Winburn by the Cincinnati Chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, which said Winburn was exercising his freedom of speech and religion.

And Democratic Hamilton County Commissioner Todd Portune criticized Burke for bringing the issue up.

Portune said he fears attacking Winburn's writings could energize the same evangelical Christians who helped President Bush carry Ohio last year.

"I think Tim's letter helps to continue to promote stereotypes that the Democratic Party is anti-faith," said Portune, who is considering a run for statewide office next year. "It casts the party as petty and personal.

"It does nothing but help Charlie Winburn, who loves to cast himself as the underdog and the victim anyway, and will energize Charlie's base," Portune said.

'Writing to lazy Christians'

The three Democratic candidates for mayor - state Sen. Mark Mallory and City Council members David Pepper and Alicia Reece - all declined to comment on the controversy.

Edith Thrower, a Republican who heads the Cincinnati chapter of the NAACP, accused Burke of religious discrimination.

"When you attack our ministers, you attack our church and our communities," she told Burke in a letter.

Burke said he understood the importance of churches to the community, but he declined to address Portune's criticism that he was energizing born-again voters against the Democratic Party.

"My objection to Charlie is I don't believe this city should have a mayor who has publicly advocated that only members of one religion should hold public office," said Burke, who is Roman Catholic. "That's not religious discrimination. It's just the opposite.

"I don't think there are many Christian leaders who would stand up and say that every officeholder should be a born-again Christian," Burke said.

Winburn - while stopping short of renouncing the words he wrote in 1989 - conceded that his words might sound intolerant in 2005. He said he would have written some passages differently in 2005.

He said his aim was to motivate born-again Christians to get involved in the political system. On page after page, Winburn urged Christians to "infiltrate" the media, corporations, abortion clinics, banks, colleges, farms, the medical and legal professions - and government.

"When you're writing to lazy Christians, that's what that's for," he said Saturday, noting that he has gotten campaign contributions from Jews, Muslims and Catholics - and is on a Republican ticket that includes two Roman Catholics and a Greek Orthodox Christian.

"In this race, religion has nothing to do with it. Tim Burke is the one who created this religious war," Winburn said. "What he's trying to do is disqualify me as mayor because of my religious beliefs. Tim Burke is telling me, 'Get out of city government and go back to your church.' "

Matter of perspective

Leaders of local religious groups say context is important.

"It's hard to go back so many years later and say, he meant this or he meant that. Only he can really say," said Karen J. Dabdoub, Cincinnati director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

"Fifteen years ago, things were different. The language of public discourse was different in a lot of ways," she said.

Muslims, too, believe Satan tries to use institutions - including political ones - to lead people down the path of evil, Dabdoub said.

"In general terms, I don't think there's a whole lot to disagree with there.

"If he's talking from a Christian perspective to his Christian community, I don't see a problem with it," she said.

But Hanan Balk, an orthodox rabbi, said he saw a much more divisive tone in Winburn's comments - though he stressed he has not read the book.

"I would think most people, unless you're a born-again Christian, would find that objectionable," said Balk, who heads the Golf Manor Synagogue, the largest orthodox synagogue in Cincinnati.

Balk, who said he usually votes Republican, met twice with President Bush at the White House during last year's presidential campaign.

"I don't think it's acceptable in American politics to use the vocabulary that he is using," Balk said. "In America, everyone has the right to hold a public office. I wouldn't say that everyone in public office should be Jewish. That would be absurd."

But like some Roman Catholics who voted for John F. Kennedy in 1960, many voters do take religious affiliation into consideration in the voting booth. Duane Holm, a Presbyterian minister, said that's unavoidable.

"It seems to me that it's Winburn's prerogative to set credentials and qualifications for officeholders that he would support, and most believers would want to support people who they felt were honest, caring and compassionate," said Holm, who is also the director of the Metropolitan Area Religious Coalition, an interdenominational church group.

"But it seems to me on the other hand that God has the ability to work through all kinds of other peoples, and politically he's narrowing the field of people who are going to support him based on that strict criteria," Holm said.

E-mail gkorte@enquirer.com

-----------------------------------------

Charlie Winburn
'IF I HAD TO REWRITE THAT SECTION OF IT ... '
Winburn in 1989

Don't be deceived by this issue of "separation of church and state." Why do you think Satan wants to keep Christians out of the media, education, politics, government and economics? So he can control their destiny. He doesn't want them to take any part in decision-making in any of these crucial areas. ... Satan wants power and control over the people of God. (Ephesians 6:12.)

It is God's will for the Church, through the Kingdom, to influence the political system by first teaching those in the system to obey and respect the laws of God.

Politics is dirty because the true believers are not really involved in it. We Christians must clean up politics. It is our job to elect only born-again believers to public office. If officeholders are not Christian and refuse to obey the laws of God, we must work hard, under the law, to unseat them. ... Jesus came as King to establish His Kingdom, not a political Kingdom. We must get into control of politics by subduing this kingdom so God's Kingdom can rule in the earth. (Revelations 11:15, 16.)

The pastor and his congregation are under commandment to begin to teach more than their church members. If the president, Congress, governors and mayors are not Christians, we must teach them the ways and acts of God. We must go to them aggressively, but tempered with love.Winburn in 2005

What I'm saying there is that they have used the separation of state and church to tell Christians, "You stay over there in those four walls of the church building, and you leave government alone." There should not be separation of church and state, or synagogue and state. They should participate in government whether they are Jew, Christian, Muslim or Protestant.

If I had to rewrite that section of it, I would rewrite it. I concede that someone could see that and say I'm not tolerant of anyone. How I would rephrase that today is, everyone should obey the laws of the land, and have respect for each other and have tolerance for each other regardless of their race religion or their creed. ...

I've always tried to be loving, to be kind. That's how I teach others, through example. In all my years on City Council, l never brought in a Bible. What I said in that book was, we have to be a living epistle. You're not going to teach them curriculum or give them the Bible. Your life ought to be a reflection of love, a reflection of honesty, a reflection of integrity.

Tempered with love - that's what it's all about. What we have to do is respect those in authority, whether they're whatever persuasion - gentile, Jew, or Islamic. I don't believe anyone should use their religion to hurt someone, discriminate against someone or keep them down.

RedsBaron
08-10-2005, 04:52 PM
Why? Can you even articulate your problem with his statement?
I don't know about TC81190, but a few of the "problems" I had with the post include the following:
1. "[V]ictimized Christians in the US...deserve everything they have coming to them"-in certain contexts I might agree with that statement, but not in the context of the post at issue.
2. "The church is responsible for more murder and child abuse than all the abortion clinics combined in the history of mankind"-where's the evidence for that sweeping statement? The starement equates abortion with murder. There have been tens of millions of abortions in this country in the last thirty years, to say nothing of tens of millions of abortions in other nations-has the church "murdered" more peoples than that?
3. "[T]he Roman Catholic church is directly responsible for the poverty, disease and suffering we see in the 3rd world today." Where is the evidence for that statement? I'm not Cathoic, but I somehow never knew about all the people Mother Teresa condemned to poverty and disease.
4. "I vote anti-christian any chance I get." I have the exact same problem with that statement that I would have had the sentence read "I vote anti-Jew any chance I get" or "I vote anti-Muslim any chance I get" or "I vote anti-African American any chance I get" or any other statement expressing intolerance of any group or class of people based upon their religion, race or gender.
I don't agree with Charlie Winburn's statement either, by the way. I also realize that the Cathlic church and Christians in general have shortcomings, but I cannot agree with the broad condemnations made in the post.
I'm sure I've failed to adequately "articulate" my problems with the post, and I fully expect to get flamed by someone, not necessarily you, in response to this post, which will remind me of why I'm been trying to avoid political posts of late. Such is life.

RedFanAlways1966
08-10-2005, 06:16 PM
[QUOTE=RedsBaron] 3. "[T]he Roman Catholic church is directly responsible for the poverty, disease and suffering we see in the 3rd world today." Where is the evidence for that statement? I'm not Cathoic, but I somehow never knew about all the people Mother Teresa condemned to poverty and disease.
4. "I vote anti-christian any chance I get." I have the exact same problem with that statement that I would have had the sentence read "I vote anti-Jew any chance I get" or "I vote anti-Muslim any chance I get" or "I vote anti-African American any chance I get" or any other statement expressing intolerance of any group or class of people based upon their religion, race or gender.[QUOTE]

Evidence? None needed. It is a free country. The same reason Winburn and others can say as they please. There is no evidence. It is called hate.

#4... beautiful. Hate comes in all sizes and shapes.

Falls City Beer
08-10-2005, 06:35 PM
Wish I had saved some rep to pass around. :thumbdown

Why don't you add something instead of harumphing like an old woman?

alex trevino
08-10-2005, 06:35 PM
atleast Winburn is open about his bliefs..I remember several years ago seeing ralph reed (what a weasle) being interviewed about so called "stealth" candidates. Those canidates that appear middle of the road but are in fact evangelical with a desire to create a theocracy . Looking back I think they have done just that. That is what concerns me about Judge Roberts as well.

paintmered
08-10-2005, 06:37 PM
Wish I had saved some rep to pass around. :thumbdown

Take it private or don't say it at all.




Why don't you add something instead of harumphing like an old woman?

You could have just let it go. This is equally non-contributive. Again, gentlemen, take it private.

registerthis
08-11-2005, 12:20 AM
atleast Winburn is open about his bliefs..I remember several years ago seeing ralph reed (what a weasle) being interviewed about so called "stealth" candidates. Those canidates that appear middle of the road but are in fact evangelical with a desire to create a theocracy . Looking back I think they have done just that. That is what concerns me about Judge Roberts as well.
Althought the interesting thing about Roberts is that he was recently "outed" for his assistance in overturning a Colorado law which discriminated against homosexuals. The White House has been practically a comedy club trying to make Roberts sound intolerant and brushing off his work on the law, but apparentally it's so serious that a prominent conservative group today came out and said they wouldn't support him.

The Baumer
08-11-2005, 01:29 AM
Christians contribute a lot of good to the world. But I guess their whole "morals" thing cancels it out.

With all the bad talk on this board you'd expect Christians to be a group of heinious, selfish, ignorant, murderous, evil people...oh wait, they are because Christians are human beings, like everyone else. We all have evil natures.

GAC
08-11-2005, 08:03 AM
The guy has a right to run for office. He has openly made his position known so the people can be informed when voting. Let the democratic process run it's course. It's up to the people. Are some saying he should be prevented from running?

Redsfaithful
08-11-2005, 01:23 PM
Are some saying he should be prevented from running?

Not at all, I don't think anyway. I think most are just pointing out that he's an idiot.