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TeamCasey
08-23-2005, 12:37 PM
UC to Huggins: Resign or be fired

By Paul Daugherty
Enquirer staff writer

Bob Huggins, the winningest basketball coach in University of Cincinnati history, will be fired or forced to resign within the next 24 hours. Huggins has been asked to resign, effective immediately, a source close to the situation said Tuesday morning. Bearcats associate head coach Andy Kennedy will be asked to become interim head coach.

The move comes two months after university president Nancy Zimpher declined to exercise the rollover option of Huggins’ contract. The ensuing divide between Zimpher and Huggins fueled speculation that Huggins’ 16-year run at UC might end abruptly.

A source said a letter would be sent Tuesday to Huggins’ representative Richard Katz asking the coach to accept a $3 million buyout of the remaining two years of his contract. Huggins would have 24 hours to accept the deal. If he rejected it, the source said, Huggins would be “terminated without cause” and compensation would be reduced to $2 million.

“I can confirm that we have been in discussions with the university concerning our request for the restoration of the four-year rollever, or an extension of the contract so that Bob can retire as the head coach as the head coach of the University of Cincinnati,” Katz said.

The shocking end to the 51-year-old Huggins’ highly successful run comes barely two months before the Bearcats begin practice for their first season in the Big East Conference. It is certain to spark fan and donor protest and, possibly, backlash from recruits who have committed to UC, and current players loyal to Huggins.

Huggins’ UC record of 399-127 and his string of 14 consecutive NCAA tournament appearances (third longest in the nation) was not enough to overcome the poor national image the basketball program had acquired under his watch. Even as player graduation rates improved in recent years, and Huggins’ on-court demeanor became less tempestuous, Zimpher and UC’s Board of Trustees determined the program to be a liability to the school’s overall image.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 12:39 PM
Here we go again, Nancy Zimpher needs to go away.

If Huggs is fired she better be ready for a media firestorm like she's never been through before.

Edit: Yes, fire the coach when you are 3 months away from starting the season in one of the toughest conferences in the NCAA..........GENIUS! Let Andy Kennedy take us to the Big East! Gooooooooooooooooooooooo Nancy! :rolleyes:

:bang:

Roy Tucker
08-23-2005, 12:50 PM
Man oh man, the stuff is going to hit the fan on this.

CTA513
08-23-2005, 12:58 PM
The shocking end to the 51-year-old Huggins’ highly successful run comes barely two months before the Bearcats begin practice for their first season in the Big East Conference. It is certain to spark fan and donor protest and, possibly, backlash from recruits who have committed to UC, and current players loyal to Huggins.


The players should transfer to UCs biggest rival. :evil:

savafan
08-23-2005, 12:58 PM
Nancy Zimpher is about to become the most hated person in Cincinnati.

15fan
08-23-2005, 01:28 PM
A note the UC folks who are fans of Huggins:

Outside of the tri-state, Bob Huggins has made your school the punch line to a lot of jokes.

This is an absolutely necessary move if the University wants to regain any shred of credibility with the rest of the country. It's a move that should have been made 5 or 10 years ago.

Ya know, it's not unlike Marge Schott and the Reds. Some of the local folks thought she was just a quirky old lady. Meanwhile, the rest of the country either rolled its eyes or chuckled when her name was mentioned. No one took her seriously.

Same thing with Huggins.

The basketball team is the face of the University to a lot of folks outside of the tri-state.

It's a face that has been covered with egg for an awfully long time.

Glad to see that someone is finally doing something about it.

Chip R
08-23-2005, 01:29 PM
Nancy Zimpher is about to become the most hated person in Cincinnati.

This guy is celebrating now. :obrien:

LawFive
08-23-2005, 01:35 PM
They wait until AFTER all the UCATS memberships and season tickets are renewed, they have the big $ in hand, and then announce it?

I'd like to renounce my diploma. Never again will I pay to attend a game, if this goes through.

CTA513
08-23-2005, 01:39 PM
A note the UC folks who are fans of Huggins:

Outside of the tri-state, Bob Huggins has made your school the punch line to a lot of jokes.

This is an absolutely necessary move if the University wants to regain any shred of credibility with the rest of the country. It's a move that should have been made 5 or 10 years ago.

Ya know, it's not unlike Marge Schott and the Reds. Some of the local folks thought she was just a quirky old lady. Meanwhile, the rest of the country either rolled its eyes or chuckled when her name was mentioned. No one took her seriously.

Same thing with Huggins.

The basketball team is the face of the University to a lot of folks outside of the tri-state.

It's a face that has been covered with egg for an awfully long time.

Glad to see that someone is finally doing something about it.


If Huggins was going to be fired it should have been done sooner. Now the players who came to UC because of Huggins are getting screwed because he wont be there.

Zimpher obviously knew she was going to fire Huggins but waited right before the basketball season to start and for recruits to commit. Pretty crappy of a thing to do.

flyer85
08-23-2005, 01:41 PM
from an unbiased observer I see
1) An attempt to give UC more credibility as an academic institution, will it be in vain?
2) Basketball program is in for a hard fall. Huggins is one of the best coaches in NCAA history, as his 399-127 in just 16 years at UC attests. The new coach will not be able to fill his shoes and the Cats are walking directly in to a much tougher basketball situation.
3) The timing of this is ludicrous. The president didn't have the balls(I guess she is a woman) to get rid of him at the end of the season, now it may likely result in a lost recruiting class at a time when it is extremely important.
4) The fallout from this is not going to be pretty in the short term and likely in the long term as well.

flyer85
08-23-2005, 01:43 PM
Zimpher obviously knew she was going to fire Huggins but waited right before the basketball season to start and for recruits to commit. Pretty crappy of a thing to do.almost seems like it is being done intentionally handled to humble the basketball program and lessen it's power.

Danny Serafini
08-23-2005, 01:47 PM
The timing may be bad but the move was the right one. 15fan nailed this one.

LawFive
08-23-2005, 01:47 PM
While I appreciate the notion that UC wants to improve it's academic image, Dr Z is trying to make it into a Duke or Stanford - which it never has been, is not designed for, and never will be.

KronoRed
08-23-2005, 01:53 PM
almost seems like it is being done intentionally handled to humble the basketball program and lessen it's power.

Is it an assault just on the basketball program in an attempt to make the football program look better? it being the start of football season now..or an assault on the sports program in general?

Hmm

CTA513
08-23-2005, 01:55 PM
The timing may be bad but the move was the right one. 15fan nailed this one.

UC got its money from the fan by making it look like Huggins was going to stay.... perfect timing.


"It is certain to spark fan and donor protest and, possibly, backlash from recruits who have committed to UC, and current players loyal to Huggins."

:beerme:

DoogMinAmo
08-23-2005, 01:58 PM
While I appreciate the notion that UC wants to improve it's academic image, Dr Z is trying to make it into a Duke or Stanford - which it never has been, is not designed for, and never will be.

You would be surprised how many of UC's colleges are upper tier in the nation, one of which I am a graduate. Unfortunately, many others think like you, and NZ, no matter how much I agree or disagree with this particular move, is using the tarnishing of the sports image to show that it is an academic institution first. The thinking being, that maybe when the bball program stops being that evil first face of UC, its academic integrity, and the strive to improve other programs will take the forefront. Little does she realize, that what she is doing can be just as tarnishing of an image as the "thug" label on the sports program.

It was handled horribly from the beginning, and the timing is even worse. I am very curious, though, to see how the team responds. I have always been of the opinion that Hugs is a drill sergeant and a recruiter, and his coaching methods are subpar. Can Kennedy take his place? It is worth watching, for me, no matter how disappointed.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 02:01 PM
A note the UC folks who are fans of Huggins:

Outside of the tri-state, Bob Huggins has made your school the punch line to a lot of jokes.

This is an absolutely necessary move if the University wants to regain any shred of credibility with the rest of the country. It's a move that should have been made 5 or 10 years ago.

Ya know, it's not unlike Marge Schott and the Reds. Some of the local folks thought she was just a quirky old lady. Meanwhile, the rest of the country either rolled its eyes or chuckled when her name was mentioned. No one took her seriously.

Same thing with Huggins.

The basketball team is the face of the University to a lot of folks outside of the tri-state.

It's a face that has been covered with egg for an awfully long time.

Glad to see that someone is finally doing something about it.

For those outside of Cincinnati, we don't care what the rest of the country thinks. We'll keep taking our 20+ win seasons, conference titles and repeated NCAA invites.

That is all, carry on.

I'm a UC grad, if he's fired they won't be getting anymore money from me, and I'll never attend another game.

Chip R
08-23-2005, 02:02 PM
I wonder if this will change things any. Is the new coach all of a sudden going to be under orders to recruit choirboys? What happens when the first player of the new coach's regime gets arrested? Is that coach going to be fired too? You also have to wonder how many of these freshman and sophomores are going to be transferring now. For a lot of these guys, Huggins is the only reason they are coming to UC. Now that he's gone they have no reason to stay.

flyer85
08-23-2005, 02:03 PM
I have always been of the opinion that Hugs is a drill sergeant and a recruiter, and his coaching methods are subpar. Can Kennedy take his place? 399 wins in 16 years speaks for itself. It will not likely be repeated. Recruiting will be impacted for likely the next two classes. Huggs took the program(performance wise) from the outhouse to the penthouse. Maybe people forget that nobody showed up or cared during the Yates era. There were a lot of incidents during the Huggins years and some tarnished things a bit but 399 wins is an enormous amount of wins in 16 years.

DoogMinAmo
08-23-2005, 02:10 PM
399 wins in 16 years speaks for itself. It will not likely be repeated. Recruiting will be impacted for likely the next two classes. Huggs took the program(performance wise) from the outhouse to the penthouse. Maybe people forget that nobody showed up or cared during the Yates era. There were a lot of incidents during the Huggins years and some tarnished things a bit but 399 wins is an enormous amount of wins in 16 years.

Most of the wins came against subpar competition. UC was notorious for scheduling cakes early in the season, and the conferences were weak mostly, especially early on. That is why UC has been a one and done NCAA tournament participator so often.

Not to discount Huggins, but I have always thought the multitude of 20+ win seasons a mirage.

flyer85
08-23-2005, 02:17 PM
Most of the wins came against subpar competition. if that is true how do you explain 14 consecutive NCAA appearances and the something like 9 consecutive league titles?

Those 14 consecutive NCAA appearances are only surpassed by Olson, Smith, Knight and Williams. Pretty good company I would say.

DoogMinAmo
08-23-2005, 02:22 PM
if that was true how do you explain 14 consecutive NCAA appearances?

Automatic conference births, and beat anyone enough times, you seem beautiful.

The program had more or less reached its ceiling, Huggins had come to rely too much on Juco transfers to fill holes, which meant that players never gelled or truly became a team, just a group of individual talents. Anyone could watch the program, especially recently, and realize it was not a bunch of guys playing together, which is why less talented teams managed to beat them.

The question had been whether it was Huggins fault they did not play well together, and whether he was recruiting bad character guys. The answer will be found out in the next few years.

flyer85
08-23-2005, 02:24 PM
Automatic conference births, and beat anyone enough times, you seem beautiful.

The program had more or less reached its ceiling, Huggins had come to rely too much on Juco transfers to fill holes, which meant that players never gelled or truly became a team, just a group of individual talents. Anyone could watch the program, especially recently, and realize it was not a bunch of guys playing together, which is why less talented teams managed to beat them.

The question had been whether it was Huggins fault they did not play well together, and whether he was recruiting bad character guys. The answer will be found out in the next few years.the proof will be in the pudding. The program is in for a HARD fall. Huggins has always consistently produced a whole greater than the parts because he got his teams to play hard, tough, aggressive and very physical defense. Most coaches have no idea how to coach it and almost none can actually get their players to do it.

You are correct, the program has reached it's ceiling under Huggins(and a damn good one at that), and it is highly unlikely to be going any higher.

Chip R
08-23-2005, 02:32 PM
Most of the wins came against subpar competition. UC was notorious for scheduling cakes early in the season, and the conferences were weak mostly, especially early on. That is why UC has been a one and done NCAA tournament participator so often.

Not to discount Huggins, but I have always thought the multitude of 20+ win seasons a mirage.

This could be said for many successful programs. Georgetown was notorious under John Thompson for scheduling very weak out of conference opponents. The Hall of Fame is filled with coaches who have made their names on the backs of weak opponents.

flyer85
08-23-2005, 02:35 PM
The Hall of Fame is filled with coaches who have made their names on the backs of weak opponents.when you are a good team. almost everybody is a weaker opponent. It is obvious people don't appreciate how difficult a school UC is to recruit top-notch basketball talent to. Other than Huggins as the coach there is little else to draw a top recruit to the campus(and most have said so).

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 02:41 PM
Huggs lawyer is on WLW now, UC (Zimpher and her pals) released the letter to the media before a copy was even given to Huggs or his reps. Huggins heard about this on the news, they didn't even have the freakin' guts to call the guy.

Nancy says Huggins is embarassing UC? This situation has been so poorly handled that it's amazing, if anyone is an embarassment it's Nancy Zimpher. I hope she looses every single major sponsor and booster that supports the basketball program. I hope she gets run out of town on a rail.

DoogMinAmo
08-23-2005, 02:41 PM
when you are a good team. almost everybody is a weaker opponent. It is obvious people don't appreciate how difficult a school UC is to recruit top-notch basketball talent to. Other than Huggins as the coach there is little else to draw a top recruit to the campus(and most have said so).

In two years, even that arguement will have no merit. The campus has undergone a most amazing Renaissance, albeit mostly of hideous zinc panelling, but it has become a student and architectural haven. The grean space is inspiring and beautiful, and the amenities are top notch. The varsity village is on par if not better than some elite programs in the nation, and the recent growth and development around the campus has made it one of the hottest areas in the city.

Get an above average coach in there, and the program will be fine recruit-wise.

reds1869
08-23-2005, 02:45 PM
I'm a huge Xavier fan and no big supporter of Huggins. If the Bearcats never win another game it will not hurt my feelings. That being said, the timing on this is awful and I really feel for the kids on the basketball team. No one seems to care that they'll be the ones getting screwed in all this. A few of them may be low-life thugs (the same is true at most any D-I school, including the one on Victory Parkway), but most are good kids trying to do what is best for themselves. If the president wanted Huggins gone she should have done it after last season, not before the upcoming one.

RosieRed
08-23-2005, 02:47 PM
Some pretty interesting stuff in here (warning, it's a PDF):

http://news.enquirer.com/assets/AB7481823.PDF

EDIT to say the letter Reds4Life referred to appears to be in this PDF as well, at the end. It has today's date on it.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 02:53 PM
This will be the biggest mistake she's ever made, and the beginning of the end of her career at UC

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 02:56 PM
The players should transfer to UCs biggest rival. :evil:

And take a step down...? :D

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 03:01 PM
Is it an assault just on the basketball program in an attempt to make the football program look better? it being the start of football season now..or an assault on the sports program in general?

Hmm

The only reason there's a football program that is on the rise is because of the basketball program that was built by Bob Huggins

Danny Serafini
08-23-2005, 03:01 PM
if that is true how do you explain 14 consecutive NCAA appearances and the something like 9 consecutive league titles?

Big fish, small pond. Conference USA for the most part has been a couple good teams and a whole lot of filler. It's sad that the conference got ripped apart now that they finally got going the past couple of years. But for most of it's existence it was second tier. The Great Midwest wasn't so great. Was Huggy around for the dying days of the Metro Conference? Again, not a lot going on, at least at the end. Moving to the Big East is going to be a culture shock for that program. 14 straight NCAAs is impressive, but I'd be more impressed if they didn't choke out the first weekend in the vast majority of them.

Reds Fanatic
08-23-2005, 03:02 PM
The backlash from this move is going to be so great that Nancy Zimpher will be unemployed by 2006. She is going to destroy the basketball program at UC for many years to come.

Cedric
08-23-2005, 03:03 PM
Doog- You are in a dream world. UC will never be a top notch University and Darth will never be able to show her face in UC again. You are seriously mistaken if you think someone can recruit in Clifton. It's a dangerous place and frankly a ugly campus, no matter what they do there. I attend UC, I have no love for it though. Unless you want to get robbed three times a week don't go there.

BearcatDrew
08-23-2005, 03:03 PM
Nancy Zimpher is the biggest idiot ever, she has no idea what she is doing. I hope this mistake haunts her for the rest of her life.

Cedric
08-23-2005, 03:04 PM
Big fish, small pond. Conference USA for the most part has been a couple good teams and a whole lot of filler. It's sad that the conference got ripped apart now that they finally got going the past couple of years. But for most of it's existence it was second tier. The Great Midwest wasn't so great. Was Huggy around for the dying days of the Metro Conference? Again, not a lot going on, at least at the end. Moving to the Big East is going to be a culture shock for that program. 14 straight NCAAs is impressive, but I'd be more impressed if they didn't choke out the first weekend in the vast majority of them.

That's the problem with the tournament era. People care so much about one game matchups instead of the amazing ability to win 20+ games almost every year and get in the tournament every year.

gonelong
08-23-2005, 03:06 PM
The program had more or less reached its ceiling, Huggins had come to rely too much on Juco transfers to fill holes, which meant that players never gelled or truly became a team, just a group of individual talents.

One final four birth in that time period, and very likely would have had another had Martin not broken his leg. I'd say he did alright.

GL

Roy Tucker
08-23-2005, 03:07 PM
Looking at that PDF, I don't think either party is going to come out of this looking very good.

Huggins certainly has his warts and may warrant termination but UC is handling this about as badly as they can.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 03:07 PM
One final four birth in that time period, and very likely would have had another had Martin not broken his leg. I'd say he did alright.

GL

If Kenyon didn't get hurt they would have won it all IMO.

gonelong
08-23-2005, 03:13 PM
Some pretty interesting stuff in here (warning, it's a PDF):

http://news.enquirer.com/assets/AB7481823.PDF

EDIT to say the letter Reds4Life referred to appears to be in this PDF as well, at the end. It has today's date on it.

... it will be best that all discussions are between you and me.

Rimai earned her law degree from the University of Michigan Law School and her bachelor’s degree from the University of Michigan. :bowrofl:

Danny Serafini
08-23-2005, 03:15 PM
That's the problem with the tournament era. People care so much about one game matchups instead of the amazing ability to win 20+ games almost every year and get in the tournament every year.

I agree with you that too much emphasis does get put on tournament finish. I'm a Syracuse fan, I can pretty much guarantee you last year's team will be much more remembered for being upset by Vermont than for being a pretty good team and winning the Big East tournament. But when it happens over and over like it has with Cincinnati, there is something to that.

Winning 20+ games a year is good, but quality of competition does need to be factored in. Winning 20 games against the C-USA teams is like winning 20 against the Atlantic 10 or the Mountain West or other second tier conferences. It's nice, but it's not the same as winning 20 in the Big East or the ACC for instance.

wolfboy
08-23-2005, 03:25 PM
Big fish, small pond. Conference USA for the most part has been a couple good teams and a whole lot of filler. It's sad that the conference got ripped apart now that they finally got going the past couple of years. But for most of it's existence it was second tier. The Great Midwest wasn't so great. Was Huggy around for the dying days of the Metro Conference? Again, not a lot going on, at least at the end. Moving to the Big East is going to be a culture shock for that program. 14 straight NCAAs is impressive, but I'd be more impressed if they didn't choke out the first weekend in the vast majority of them.

If he was a sub-par coach, and the teams weren't all that great, then name the other teams and coaches that have had 14 straight invites. If the issue here is weak competition, then most mid major conferences would have the same team going for 14 straight years, right? Well, not really. Arizona has gone 21 straight times. Kansas has been there for 16 in a row. Cincinnati and Kentucky are next with 14. Stanford has 11, Duke 10. Notice the quality of these programs? The only mid major that plays questionable competition, and has a remotely similar streak is Gonzaga. They have reached the NCAA tourney 7 straight times. If Huggins has a simple formula of pounding terrible competition and getting a bid, then why hasn't someone else caught on? Four teams have a streak as long or longer than UC's. If a program can play small time schools and just coast into the tournament, then more teams would be on this list. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the big fish, small pond argument. If it were that simple, the program's streak wouldn't even be worth bringing up.

Heath
08-23-2005, 03:27 PM
someone said Wright State was going to fire Biancardi ... that's interesting....

Bob needs to take a year off and recharge the batteries. Then take over in Louisville when Pitino decides he needs to retire. :evil: Or Kentucky when Tubby gets the axe. :thumbup:

From the "Hindsight is 20-20 department" - Boy, isn't he wishing he took the West Virginia job.......

flyer85
08-23-2005, 03:30 PM
14 straight NCAAs is impressive, but I'd be more impressed if they didn't choke out the first weekend in the vast majority of them. ... and Roy Williams never one the big one until he got to North Carolina.

CTA513
08-23-2005, 03:31 PM
Zimpher will take the money from ticket sales to get some body guards.

:ughmamoru

LincolnparkRed
08-23-2005, 03:35 PM
Winning 20+ games a year is good, but quality of competition does need to be factored in. Winning 20 games against the C-USA teams is like winning 20 against the Atlantic 10 or the Mountain West or other second tier conferences. It's nice, but it's not the same as winning 20 in the Big East or the ACC for instance.

But even big teams schedule in patsies to help their win total. Syracuse is famous for playing no one tough until Big East play. Also Duke and UNC always play those small local schools for a couple of built in wins (except for Norfolk at UNC a few years ago)they are guaranteed easy games at home in November and December.

Chip R
08-23-2005, 03:42 PM
I agree with you that too much emphasis does get put on tournament finish. I'm a Syracuse fan, I can pretty much guarantee you last year's team will be much more remembered for being upset by Vermont than for being a pretty good team and winning the Big East tournament. But when it happens over and over like it has with Cincinnati, there is something to that.

Winning 20+ games a year is good, but quality of competition does need to be factored in. Winning 20 games against the C-USA teams is like winning 20 against the Atlantic 10 or the Mountain West or other second tier conferences. It's nice, but it's not the same as winning 20 in the Big East or the ACC for instance.
That's true but you can't pick your conference. What was Huggins supposed to do when he started at UC, petition the Big 10 to play a round robin against UC? Is it his fault tOSU and UK won't play UC? John Wooden got the vast majority of his wins against the Pac 8 and those teams weren't exactly world beaters. Scheduling is also a 2 way street. You can want to play the Dukes and North Carolinas and Indianas all you want but if they don't want to play you, there isn't much you can do about that. Mid majors have a very difficult time getting the big boys to play them. It's a no win situation for them. They win, big deal, they were supposed to win. If they lose, they shouldn't have lost that game. As conferences get larger, there is less room for non-conference games on the schedule. Many teams are committed to playing smaller in-state schools. UC plays Dayton, Miami and Xavier. Should they drop any or all those 3 in order to schedule someone like Michigan State?

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 03:56 PM
I hope Huggins doesn't resign, I'd make Queen Nancy fire me.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 03:59 PM
A note the UC folks who are fans of Huggins:

Outside of the tri-state, Bob Huggins has made your school the punch line to a lot of jokes.

This is an absolutely necessary move if the University wants to regain any shred of credibility with the rest of the country. It's a move that should have been made 5 or 10 years ago.


OK, if this is what she's decided to do then fine...but why do this now? Why not wait until after the 2005-06 season is over and have a decent replacement waiting to take over? This seems very ill-conceived and as such does not speak well for the hope of us fans that she really has a plan for the basketball program.

flyer85
08-23-2005, 03:59 PM
I hope Huggins doesn't resign, I'd make Queen Nancy fire me.for a million smokes, I'd take the cash and avoid the legal fight.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 04:05 PM
for a million smokes, I'd take the cash and avoid the legal fight.

It's personal, I'm not sure Huggins will give a damn about the $$$$$.

REDREAD
08-23-2005, 04:11 PM
Be careful what you wish for though. I think Huggins did a good job making UC a competitive team. Most likely, they'll bring in a nice guy and become doormats of the Big East. They will live off of Huggins' remaining recruits for a couple of years possibly, but expect a hard falll in 3 years, unless they can pull a high profile, proven winner coach out of the air quickly.

IMO, UC is not a joke school outside of Ohio. There's plenty of schools that have just as much or more off field problems with their athletes.

Yes, the university used Huggins to get into the Big East and sell tickets. But if they think they can ride the Big East affiliation and get good recruits, think again. It's still a decent conference, but it's nothing like it was in the late 80's.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 04:13 PM
Folks, why argue Huggins' performance on the court? You're giving Zimpher entirely too much credit if you think his coaching performance affected this decision at all. Her letter and comments recently have never questioned Huggins' coaching ability. To her it's all about character of his players, asst coaches and of Huggs himself.

As a fan the only thing that's disappointed me is how he can't seem to recruit guys who can stay eligible to play. Every year he has a couple players who either run afoul of the law (Little) or can't get the grades (Banks) then Huggins complains like he did vs Kentucky that he didn't have enough players. He's shorthanded because of the low character guys he recruits and there Zimpher does have a point, yet I'm not sure she sees the connection yet.

15fan
08-23-2005, 04:19 PM
For those outside of Cincinnati, we don't care what the rest of the country thinks. We'll keep taking our 20+ win seasons, conference titles and repeated NCAA invites.

As well as the DUI arrests, domestic abuse charges, weapons and drug charges, horrendous graduation rates...

There are plenty of other schools that accomplish the same things that Huggins has accomplished.

Some of them even manage to do it with kids and coaches who stay out of jail and earn degrees.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 04:38 PM
As well as the DUI arrests, domestic abuse charges, weapons and drug charges, horrendous graduation rates...

There are plenty of other schools that accomplish the same things that Huggins has accomplished.

Some of them even manage to do it with kids and coaches who stay out of jail and earn degrees.

There have been 2 DUI arrests, Huggins of course, and Keith LeGree. LeGree was AQUITTED after 20 minutes of jury deliberation. Are you aware that one of the Deans that Ms. Zimpher recently hired has also been convinced of DUI? I guess that's ok though, because that person isn't named Bob Huggins.

In Huggins tenure there have been 21 instances where his players have been arrested/charged/etc, the majority have resulted in acquittals/dismissals or the charges being dropped. Don't see the media reporting that, do you?

The graduation rates are vastly skewed; don't believe the babble you read in the media.

Cedric
08-23-2005, 04:38 PM
15fan. There is plenty of good research done out there that showed that Huggins was doing fine in graduating players. A lot of the problems were because Juco's skewed grad rates. In the last five years Huggins has done a tremendous job graduating players. And about the criminal element it's a shame but it's the risk you take in recruiting big time athletes at the college level. Should Tubby be fired? Or Tressel? It happens at almost every university but Duke. UC get's a bad rap because of the juco kids and the skewed grad rates and the way Huggins looks on the court. Way it is.

15fan
08-23-2005, 04:51 PM
There have been 2 DUI arrests, Huggins of course, and Keith LeGree. LeGree was AQUITTED after 20 minutes of jury deliberation. Are you aware that one of the Deans that Ms. Zimpher recently hired has also been convinced of DUI? I guess that's ok though, because that person isn't named Bob Huggins.

In Huggins tenure there have been 21 instances where his players have been arrested/charged/etc, the majority have resulted in acquittals/dismissals or the charges being dropped. Don't see the media reporting that, do you?

The graduation rates are vastly skewed; don't believe the babble you read in the media.

I'd think that if anyone could spell "acquitted", it would be a UC basketball fan. ;)

KronoRed
08-23-2005, 04:51 PM
The only reason there's a football program that is on the rise is because of the basketball program that was built by Bob Huggins
On the rise?

I don't see a program on the rise, other then getting an invite into a Big East that was mainly just desperate for teams.

IMO :D

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 04:54 PM
On the rise?

I don't see a program on the rise, other then getting an invite into a Big East that was mainly just desperate for teams.

IMO :D

Dantonio is a good coach.....


...they did play in a bowl game last year!


I'm more a UC hoops fan than football fan, anyway

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 04:55 PM
I'd think that if anyone could spell "acquitted", it would be a UC basketball fan. ;)

I'm at work and have to type things when nobody is looking, spelling be damned. :D

Chip R
08-23-2005, 04:56 PM
As well as the DUI arrests, domestic abuse charges, weapons and drug charges, horrendous graduation rates...

There are plenty of other schools that accomplish the same things that Huggins has accomplished.

Some of them even manage to do it with kids and coaches who stay out of jail and earn degrees.
If a coach is to be held accountable for recruiting "bad eggs" and for the trouble they make, shouldn't he or she also be held accountable for the "good kids" he recruits and their accomplishments?

WVRed
08-23-2005, 04:58 PM
Now for the part to infuriate UC fans(if this alone doesnt do it).

There was heavy speculation that Cincinnati HS'ers OJ Mayo(no 1 in the class of 2007), Bill Walker(top 5), and Keenan Ellis(top 20) were looking to attend UC. The reason-Bob Huggins. Those three would have given the Bearcats a counter to the Thad Five at Ohio State and would have brought life to Ohio basketball like never before.

Im a UK fan, but Nancy Zimpher has not only cost UC one of the best coaches in college basketball, but probably the best chance the Bearcats had of reaching the Final Four since Kenyon Martin.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 05:02 PM
If a coach is to be held accountable for recruiting "bad eggs" and for the trouble they make, shouldn't he or she also be held accountable for the "good kids" he recruits and their accomplishments?

He doesn't get that treatment. He never has. :thumbdown

WVRed
08-23-2005, 05:07 PM
someone said Wright State was going to fire Biancardi ... that's interesting....

Bob needs to take a year off and recharge the batteries. Then take over in Louisville when Pitino decides he needs to retire. :evil: Or Kentucky when Tubby gets the axe. :thumbup:

From the "Hindsight is 20-20 department" - Boy, isn't he wishing he took the West Virginia job.......

Tubby Smith is not getting fired anytime soon. If he does, there will be similar outcry in the Bluegrass State to go along with what is going on in the Queen City right now.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 05:11 PM
15fan. There is plenty of good research done out there that showed that Huggins was doing fine in graduating players. A lot of the problems were because Juco's skewed grad rates. In the last five years Huggins has done a tremendous job graduating players. And about the criminal element it's a shame but it's the risk you take in recruiting big time athletes at the college level. Should Tubby be fired? Or Tressel? It happens at almost every university but Duke. UC get's a bad rap because of the juco kids and the skewed grad rates and the way Huggins looks on the court. Way it is.

But the fact remains that he doesn't have a full bench of scholarship players. He's allowed 13 scholarships but he generally has less than 10 on the bench. I think he ended last year with about 7 or 8. This leaves him shorthanded and lacking depth like last year vs Ky.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 05:26 PM
Press Conference at 6:00

wolfboy
08-23-2005, 05:57 PM
Here is a link to the letter that was sent to Richard Katz, the agent for Bob Huggins: http://cincinnati.scout.com/2/428193.html It's an interesting read. If what the letter states is accurate, Huggins has been negotiating his departure for months:


I think we would both agree that these negotiations have gone on far too long. Mr. Huggins has clearly expressed, through you, his desire to move in another direction. The University, too, wishes to move on to the future in its Men's Basketball program.

The letter seems to hint that Huggins was set on leaving for a while. His announcement that he would finish out his contract may have been a ploy to get a better buyout from the university. It's a shame all around. No one comes out of this one looking good.

edit: looks like a link to this was posted earlier in pdf form.

TeamCasey
08-23-2005, 06:03 PM
Nancy Zimpher looks like Shirley McLaine

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 06:08 PM
Watching this press conference is making me sick. Nancy wants UC to become Duke 2.0, she's in a dreamworld.

StillFunkyB
08-23-2005, 06:09 PM
What I have to say is childish, and immature. I shall keep my comments to myself.

I am not a happy Bearcat fan.

Cyclone792
08-23-2005, 06:11 PM
I was forced to listen to this same crap from Zimpher when I went to school there; she's only gotten worse since I've graduated.

TeamCasey
08-23-2005, 06:15 PM
She is full of caca, isn't she? :laugh:

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 06:16 PM
This is a bunch of crap

paintmered
08-23-2005, 06:23 PM
She's done nothing but insult the students and the faculty since the day she stepped foot on campus.

I'm ashamed my tuition dollars go to her paycheck.

alex trevino
08-23-2005, 06:26 PM
As a student in the pre Bobby Huggins era I remember praying for 15 wins a season. looks like the program has taken a GIANT leap backwards today. This decision will end up being worse than I.U. 's Bobby Knight firing.

Wonder what tony yates is doing these days?

RosieRed
08-23-2005, 06:27 PM
This is a bunch of crap

Agreed.

What a smirk she had on her face when she was asked "How is this good for the university, when you're moving into the Big East? Isn't this the worst possible timing for this move?" (or something like that)

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 06:29 PM
Oh man I've got some choice words right now, but then I'd have to ban myself. :angry:

You can sense she's down right giddy at the fact Huggins is finally gone; she can hardly contain her excitement, disgusting. In her crusade for "higher standards" she's destroyed the only UC sport worth watching. I don't think Nancy realizes she has just sealed her fate as the UC President. She's damaged goods in this town now and soon her time here will draw to an end, my only hope is that it's in the same fashion as she's treated Bob.

WVRedsFan
08-23-2005, 06:35 PM
someone said Wright State was going to fire Biancardi ... that's interesting....

Bob needs to take a year off and recharge the batteries. Then take over in Louisville when Pitino decides he needs to retire. :evil: Or Kentucky when Tubby gets the axe. :thumbup:

From the "Hindsight is 20-20 department" - Boy, isn't he wishing he took the West Virginia job.......

He wished that the minute he decided not to take it. I know...

As for Hugs, I'll right now trade you John Belein for Huggins and pay both salaries. I would kill to have him at WVU instead of Mr. Smoke and Mirrors.

M2
08-23-2005, 06:38 PM
A note the UC folks who are fans of Huggins:

Outside of the tri-state, Bob Huggins has made your school the punch line to a lot of jokes.

This is an absolutely necessary move if the University wants to regain any shred of credibility with the rest of the country. It's a move that should have been made 5 or 10 years ago.

Ya know, it's not unlike Marge Schott and the Reds. Some of the local folks thought she was just a quirky old lady. Meanwhile, the rest of the country either rolled its eyes or chuckled when her name was mentioned. No one took her seriously.

Same thing with Huggins.

The basketball team is the face of the University to a lot of folks outside of the tri-state.

It's a face that has been covered with egg for an awfully long time.

Glad to see that someone is finally doing something about it.

Exactly. I'm not sure why any educational institution allows clowns like Huggins in the door or runs sports programs that are little more than four years of indentured servitude without a real education or a degree attached to them.

Then again, if the NCAA suspended any program with an unacceptably low graduation rate, we wouldn't have this problem ... or at least we'd have a lot less of it.

TeamBoone
08-23-2005, 06:38 PM
I was shaking with anger during that press conference. Not only did she skirt the issues, she hedged nearly every question asked (are she and DOB related?). The one that got to me in particular was when she was asked her to identify the smirches on Bob Huggins character over the "big picture" she seemed to be alluding to ad nauseum... in addition to the DUI, of course. She never did answer the question. She did however say that it was "demonstrated" in the paper literature that each attendee had at his/her fingertips. Fine! This was a public press conference; inform the public!

The bottom line, Huggins isn't a good role model for the school or the players, nor are the players good role models off the court. She wants to recruit top notch student athletes.... are there more than a dozen of them nationwide? Seems she'd like the high honors students to play basketball. Wouldn't that be fun?

I am at this moment one unhappy camper. I sincerely hope that every player on the team tells her and UC to shove it where the sun don't shine. Wouldn't it be a good refelection on UC to not have a basketball team the year they enter The Big East?

paintmered
08-23-2005, 06:42 PM
I'm thinking I need to start taking up basketball.

I haven't played organized basketball since 6th grade, but at least Nancy could be proud of my academics. Look at the dollars flow!

Sorry Nancy, the business school (as good as it is) isn't funding the Varsity Villiage you are so fond of.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 06:44 PM
I'm thinking I need to start taking up basketball.

I haven't played organized basketball since 6th grade, but at least Nancy could be proud of my academics. Look at the dollars flow!

Sorry Nancy, the business school (as good as it is) isn't funding the Varsity Villiage you are so fond of.

I'd love to see the Lindner family setup and tell the University they will no longer be getting anymore financial support.

Cedric
08-23-2005, 06:46 PM
Basically she called anyone that supports Huggans a scum bag. Also she said if you had a pre Nancy UC degree you are worthless. I can't honestly say I have anything but disgust for that lady. Is UC gonna be Dartmouth now?

paintmered
08-23-2005, 06:47 PM
So when does the chairman of the board of trustees get fired?

If character is so important, why is he the one behind the podium at the press conference?

Cedric
08-23-2005, 06:50 PM
Exactly. I'm not sure why any educational institution allows clowns like Huggins in the door or runs sports programs that are little more than four years of indentured servitude without a real education or a degree attached to them.

Then again, if the NCAA suspended any program with an unacceptably low graduation rate, we wouldn't have this problem ... or at least we'd have a lot less of it.

Tell that to all the players lives he has changed. If you think the only important thing in life is getting a college degree you are sadly mistaken. Huggins has changed many more mens life than I bet you have. And those kids were in some of the worst of the worst situations. I'm not saying he only did this for that cause, of course he wanted to win. But he loved those kids and he helped them. To a man they love him and give him credit for furthuring their life. But of course he should be hated because he didn't get them into class for that degree, silly me.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 07:02 PM
If I am the commish of the Big East right now, I am fuming. The Big East invested large amount of money to get UC and Louisville out of CUSA, a big part of the reason UC was invited was Bob Huggins. I'd have Ms. Zimpher on the phone and I'd be withdrawing the invitation for UC to join the Big East. The product she will be providing is the not the product they purchased.

paintmered
08-23-2005, 07:05 PM
Daugherty on ESPNews right now discussing the situtation.

paintmered
08-23-2005, 07:13 PM
UC is cleaning out his office and shipping all his stuff to his house.

They aren't even allowing him to clean out his own office. Granted, he's out of town, but still.

M2
08-23-2005, 07:14 PM
Tell that to all the players lives he has changed. If you think the only important thing in life is getting a college degree you are sadly mistaken. Huggins has changed many more mens life than I bet you have. And those kids were in some of the worst of the worst situations. I'm not saying he only did this for that cause, of course he wanted to win. But he loved those kids and he helped them. To a man they love him and give him credit for furthuring their life. But of course he should be hated because he didn't get them into class for that degree, silly me.

A) You're right, a college degree isn't the end-all, be-all. Then again, if you don't want a college degree then don't go to college. If you don't care whether young men or women earn a college degree then don't work for a college.

B) Spare me the Saint Bob act. He wanted to make millions and play kingfish. Some kids turned out good, others wound up with rap sheets that would make your head spin. Huggins made his millions and played kingfish either way.

C) Huggins will land on his feet elsewhere because rest assured there's plenty of, uh, "schools" out there more interested in winning basketball games than taking their academic mission seriously.

paintmered
08-23-2005, 07:16 PM
B) He wanted to make millions and play kingfish. Some kids turned out good, others wound up with rap sheets that would make your head spin. Huggins made his millions and played kingfish either way.


At no point at UC has he ever asked for more money.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 07:25 PM
He's STAYED at UC for less money rather than go on to other opportunities. He's always been dedicated to the kids and the University. He's had some issues, and so have some of his kids, but he's always been one to give kids opportunities, and more often than not, it worked out for them.

He's done more good than bad, but unfortunately, nobody talks about the good.

Caveat Emperor
08-23-2005, 07:28 PM
Exactly. I'm not sure why any educational institution allows clowns like Huggins in the door or runs sports programs that are little more than four years of indentured servitude without a real education or a degree attached to them.

Then again, if the NCAA suspended any program with an unacceptably low graduation rate, we wouldn't have this problem ... or at least we'd have a lot less of it.

That raises a larger issue about what college athletics are in general. It is fine to hold things to a high standard and believe that athletes should be students first and players second...but if that is really the case, why are winning programs so heavily rewarded financially with cash payouts for postseason play? If the goal of universities is education, why aren't more full-rides given to kids with high SAT scores than those who can run a fast 40?

The bottom line is, you can play the game the "right way," but you'll most likely never succeed in the long term against the overwhelming odds and all of the other teams that are content with winning alone. I graduated from a school (Tulane) that now appears to be hell-bent on doing things the "Right Way" and all it's gotten them is a basketball team that looks like the Washington Generals and a football team that can't recruit talented enough guys to play defense.

But, honestly, this isn't about that...this is a good, old-fashioned urinating match. This is a University President who felt her authority was being undercut by an employee and displaying a classic "little man" response. Huggins had won the popular opinion battle, so the only response left for her WAS to fire him...otherwise she'd be forced to live in his shadow for the remainder of his tenure at the university.

Nancy Zimpher is basically delivering a message with this firing that this is HER University, and she will not allow herself to be dominated by the boosters and their hero.

...and as a Cincinnatian who just wants some winning team to be proud of, I cannot wish her enough ill for this.

RosieRed
08-23-2005, 07:29 PM
I've heard Montgomery Inn is pulling their advertising and that they won't be the only ones ...

I've also heard that recruit Jason Bennett (a 7-foot-2 center) has said he will not commit to UC as originally planned.

The fallout from this will be far and wide, IMO.

M2
08-23-2005, 07:34 PM
At no point at UC has he ever asked for more money.

I didn't say he tried to renegotiate his deals, but he did make scads of money and get his share of hefty raises for winning basketball games, point being that he hardly was taking these kids in as a demonstration of unrecompensed altruism. He wanted tough kids who'd go through a wall to win a game. Smart basketball, but he gained a national rep for not caring if they went to class or committed a few felonies. If he were running a pro sports team, I'd say that's no big deal. However, he was working for a place that purports to care about education and personal conduct.

Plenty of other coaches bring in hardship cases, learning disabled players and kids with criminal histories. Though a lot of those coaches actually make sure those kids get that degree (and more importantly the education that comes with it) rather than just hanging around for the coach's glorification. Some of those coaches will actually bench players who aren't hitting the books or who fail to live up to a high standard of conduct. Mind you, since those coaches may not have 14 straight NCAA appearances, they may not be eligible for sainthood.

WVRed
08-23-2005, 07:51 PM
I've heard Montgomery Inn is pulling their advertising and that they won't be the only ones ...

I've also heard that recruit Jason Bennett (a 7-foot-2 center) has said he will not commit to UC as originally planned.

The fallout from this will be far and wide, IMO.

And for some reason, I dont think Zimpher cares. Huggins is gone, she has done her job.

I feel for UC fans right now.:(

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 07:54 PM
The Montgomery Inn people aren't the big dog supporters. If top doners like the Lindner family (who paid for the new Varsity Village complex), the Farmers, Fifth Third and others pull support, Zimpher is finished.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 07:55 PM
The Montgomery Inn people aren't the big dog supporters. If top doners like the Lindner family (who paid for the new Varsity Village complex), the Farmers, Fifth Third and others pull support, Zimpher is finished.

Montgomery Inn hosts the coaches radio show....or did anyway.

RosieRed
08-23-2005, 07:56 PM
The Montgomery Inn people aren't the big dog supporters. If top doners like the Lindner family (who paid for the new Varsity Village complex), the Farmers, Fifth Third and others pull support, Zimpher is finished.

Did you hear the quote from the guy who owns all the Performance car dealerships? I can't remember his name, but he is a big dog supporter. He said something like "I'm withholding support until I can calm down and make a rational decision. Right now I'm too upset."

CrackerJack
08-23-2005, 07:59 PM
Here is a link to the letter that was sent to Richard Katz, the agent for Bob Huggins: http://cincinnati.scout.com/2/428193.html It's an interesting read. If what the letter states is accurate, Huggins has been negotiating his departure for months:



The letter seems to hint that Huggins was set on leaving for a while. His announcement that he would finish out his contract may have been a ploy to get a better buyout from the university. It's a shame all around. No one comes out of this one looking good.

edit: looks like a link to this was posted earlier in pdf form.

Yep got that impression too - this has been coming for a while now and Huggins probably got some interest from another program.

Good luck Mrs. Zimpher making a city school into the next Duke, it won't happen.

Things are changing rapidly at UC and around campus that's for sure.

I had no problem at all with Huggins leaving, but felt it could've been handled better, to say the least.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 08:02 PM
Problem is, Jeff Wyler (bigger than Performance) is on the UC board that approved this move. So is George Schaffer, CEO of Fifth Third Bank. :(

The key will be the Lindner family, they give millions every year, I think the varsity village thing was at least $15 million, the business building is named after Carl Lindner, he paid for it's construction.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 08:02 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050823/SPT0101/308230017


It's begun....

WVRed
08-23-2005, 08:04 PM
Does anybody have a link to a UC forum to follow this? I tried scout.com but I figured I could do better.:)

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 08:23 PM
Huggins was just on Channel 9...he just got back to town. He didn't know about the letter, and hasn't read the letter, but said he would address the media after he has read it.

He's going to go talk to Richard Katz, and see what the letter is all about.

Actually, the media got a copy of the letter before Huggins' representatives did.

TeamBoone
08-23-2005, 08:38 PM
I didn't say he tried to renegotiate his deals, but he did make scads of money and get his share of hefty raises for winning basketball games, point being that he hardly was taking these kids in as a demonstration of unrecompensed altruism. He wanted tough kids who'd go through a wall to win a game. Smart basketball, but he gained a national rep for not caring if they went to class or committed a few felonies. If he were running a pro sports team, I'd say that's no big deal. However, he was working for a place that purports to care about education and personal conduct.

Plenty of other coaches bring in hardship cases, learning disabled players and kids with criminal histories. Though a lot of those coaches actually make sure those kids get that degree (and more importantly the education that comes with it) rather than just hanging around for the coach's glorification. Some of those coaches will actually bench players who aren't hitting the books or who fail to live up to a high standard of conduct. Mind you, since those coaches may not have 14 straight NCAA appearances, they may not be eligible for sainthood.

You know, M2, I rarely disagree with you... but you've got this one all wrong.

Bob Huggins can lecture his ball players until he's blue in the face to attend class and do their homework (and he has), but he can not force them to do so, even by benching them (which he has also done)... UC can, however. If they do not attend class and as a result sport a failing GPA, they are inelligible to play... period. This has happened many times and has not been kept a secret by any means. It is not, however, Bob Huggins' fault. No coach can force a kid to get a degree... as you alluded to; it's impossible. All that coach can do is offer advice and council him on the virtues of a college degree and bench the guy if he doesn't even try. I can not believe for even one minute that Bob Huggins does not do that.

In addition, many of them choose to enter the NBA draft before their senior year... that also is beyond Bob Huggins' control. I highly doubt he's ever happy to lose his best players prior to their senior year. That's just a ridiculous thought.

And do you honestly think that when one of those guys gets in trouble that he slaps them on the back and says "good job! you're my kind of kid!"?

Have you ever been to senior night at a game... or watched it on TV? Funny, but there always seem to be several players that participate... seniors!

.... not caring if they went to class or committed a few felonies. He may have had the rep, but for those of us who follow every single aspect of UC Basketball, it certainly is not the truth.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 09:06 PM
Cincy soap opera leaves Huggins out in cold
Dick Vitale
SPECIAL TO ESPN.COM


Aug. 23, 2005
Wow, what a crazy scenario at the University of Cincinnati. Bob Huggins is out as head coach after 16 seasons, including 14 straight trips to the NCAA Tournament.

This is a shocking report, considering that there was a news conference in May saying he would finish the final two years of his contract at Cincinnati. The bottom line is that school president Nancy Zimpher was not happy with the perception of the program ever since she arrived at the school in 2003.

Zimpher would not extend Huggins' contract through a roll-over clause that would have given the coach a four-year arrangement; instead, she limited him to two years left on his contract. Huggins was unhappy with that situation, and he was trying to get the president to agree to an extension. Huggins also inquired about a three-year extension, which Zimpher decided against.


Bob Huggins was seeking a contract extension. Instead, he's out.
I honestly believe Zimpher felt that if Huggins coached the next two seasons and had success in the Big East, there would have been tremendous pressure to extend his contract.

The talk shows will be heating up big-time in Cincinnati, you can bet on that.

Now Huggins reportedly has a $3 million offer to walk away, or he can take a $2.7 million deal to work in an administrative role, one that would include benefits, in fundraising for the school.

This whole Huggins controversy has led to turmoil in Cincinnati, especially on the radio talk shows. Huggins is a popular figure with a great résumé -- a .740 win percentage with the Bearcats (399-127), a Final Four appearance in 1992, three trips to the Elite Eight, and five players picked in the first round of the NBA draft.

Huggins has support from the fans. The coach is all about work ethic and discipline, yet he had problems with players struggling off the court, plus his own DUI incident last year. He sat out two months to straighten out his life, and he appeared back on the right track last season.

Recent problems with Bearcats player Roy Bright (admitted to bringing a firearm on campus) and recruit Tyree Evans (accused of statutory rape in Massachusetts) did not help the program's image.

Huggins saw his Bearcats turn the corner academically, as 11 players graduated over the past four seasons.

Also realize that Huggins was loyal to Cincinnati, turning down NBA coaching jobs as well as passing on other Division I openings.

The Cincinnati program will move on after this stunning development. There are six newcomers scheduled to play this season, including Devan Downey, a guard who was Mr. Basketball in South Carolina last year, and talented swingman DeAndre Coleman.

With Cincinnati entering the Big East in two months, the timing is absolutely a disaster. The Bearcats have a talented returning nucleus with Eric Hicks, James White, Jihad Muhammad and Armein Kirkland back.

Look for athletics director Bob Goin, originally scheduled to retire in 2006, to move that date up. The Bearcats will look for a new athletics director to hire a full-time coach. For the moment, associate head coach Andy Kennedy, a former player at NC State and UAB, is the likely interim head coach.

Huggins has made some mistakes, and we all do. I think that's why he is loved in Cincinnati -- because he represents the blue-collar guy, fighting and scrapping to get ahead. There are bumps in the road, and he hurt nobody but himself with the DUI (thank God nobody was injured). He was remorseful over that situation.

Now it will be interesting to see the reaction around Cincinnati basketball as it heads into the Big East. It could be a tumultuous season ahead.

MWM
08-23-2005, 09:26 PM
Rimai earned her law degree from the University of Michigan Law School and her bachelor’s degree from the University of Michigan. :bowrofl:

What's so funny about that? :)

Heck, my opinion of her just increased a little. :devil:

MWM
08-23-2005, 09:33 PM
The problem with this is that the UC basketball program is going to suffer the same fate as Indiana. Because of the timing, they had no time to hire who they really wanted to. Mike Davis was shoved into the role and because he didn't fall flat on his face, there was so much pressure put on the university making them feel like they had an obligation to rehire him. The reality was that he didn't do all that great, but the national media backed them into a corner to hire a guy they really didn't want.

Now if the interim coach coaches the team to the tourney, even if they are nothing more than average, there will be the same pressure to bring him back that there was Mike Davis.

RosieRed
08-23-2005, 09:43 PM
From the ESPN column:


I honestly believe Zimpher felt that if Huggins coached the next two seasons and had success in the Big East, there would have been tremendous pressure to extend his contract.

That's an angle I hadn't considered.

MWM
08-23-2005, 09:50 PM
For the record, I thought he should have fired after the DUI incident. There's no justification for that and that offense alone should have cost him his job. But M2, I think you're a little off on Huggins record as far as graduating players. Huggins is notorious for making his players attend class or sitting them on the bench. He's also been known to be a stickler for for grades. His teams over the last 5 years have a fairly strong academic record for a D1 big time program.

He got a lot of press about 5 years ago for not graduating players because of a report that was released that painted a very misleading picture, IMO. Huggins recruited Juco players more than just about any other upper tier program. When they came and graduated, that didn't go towards the graduation rate, but several graduated. Also, over the last 5 years, Huggins record is quite good as far as graduating players. For the most part, players who have stayed at UC long enough to graduate have graduated. I'm not a huge fan of Huggins as I don't think he's that great a coach (he's an awful offensive coach.... I mean REALLY awful) and I thought the University should have moved on a few years ago (I agree with the comments that they reached their ceiling and weren't going to get any better). But I also believe he's received a lot of flack for the academics that isn't exactly accurate if you really look into the details. As far as that piece goes, I don't think his record is any worse than most coaches. And I think the way you describerd Huggins pretty much describes most of the programs in the country.

But I completely agree with you on the issue of college athletics. I love college sports. I mean I REALLY love college sports. But I'm a bigger believer in higher education and in the institutions that exist for that purpose (Heck, I don't even think many of the citizens of Lexington even realize the basketball team is actually associated with an institutions of higher learning). I think what much of the college football and basketball has become is an embarassment to these institutions (although most collegiate athletics are a positive for the universities and the participants). And I think the institutions themselves, not the NCAA, should completely revisit what they are all about. If these athletes don't want to take full part in the higher learning aspect of their college experience, they should feel free not to attend and suffer whatever consequences come along with it. I'm fully in favor of significant changes even it means a less glamorous product on the field or on the court.

With all that being said, I don't think UC is all that different than any other university. UC just doesn't do a very good job of polishing the turd like most other places do, maily due to Bob Huggins.

CrackerJack
08-23-2005, 10:11 PM
because he didn't fall flat on his face

Well I would say taking your team to the championship game is a little better than that, and the sole reason Davis is still around. But yeah the timing stinks and certainly there's absolutely no way the school wants to keep Kennedy around, or any part of the Huggins' crew I'm guessing.

Kennedy is in a tough position, and the UCATs and alums/faculty won't settle for a no-name replacement after this event. Zimpher will get run out of town eventually.

That said I understand the problems she has with Huggins, and watching his demise at UC was slow and almost sad. Under-achieving teams of late, countless numbers of problem players who were always in trouble with grades or the law, and it just seemed to get worse, not better, aside from the improved grades. But it's sad it took that long to achieve, and that he had to be forced to respect that.

I admire Huggins nature regarding his 2nd chances to troubled inner city kids. But finding a good kid under a bad upbringing seemed to turn into just bad kids after a while, who weren't very good. And even Fortson, Martin and Van Exel all went on to have troubled NBA careers full of personal fouls and suspensions and other personal problems.

I got sick of the "thug" crap (because there was no defense for it) and grew tired of the disappointing tournament finishes every year, real tired of them, it was too predictable. But I'll wonder what Huggins might've done when faced with top competition every night instead of C-USA, and how his team might've been better prepared for a tournament. That we'll never see here.

All that said I hope the change includes a promising or known commodity coach, I have to imagine the city will be pressuring her/UC to do that at least.

MWM
08-23-2005, 10:16 PM
Davis didn't take his team to the finals until his second year. His first year the team 21-13. That's not bad, but most IU fans I knew didn't see him a s along term solution at basketball coach and wanted them to go out and get someone better. But all you heard was how they HAD to give him a long term contract because the job he did his first year. Fact is, he's not a good coach....at all. He's actually pretty bad. Any team is capable of going on a run like they did in 2002. And I'm sure IU fans wouldn't trade that for anything, but I believed for the long term program, that was one of the worst things that coupld happen, because that postponed being able to get rid of Davis by at least a couple of years.

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 10:21 PM
If Huggs has to go, Phil Cox should have to go. Nancy talks about good image, and raising the level of the University staff and students, but Phil Cox's DUI and IRS trouble is ok.

Hypocrite....

paintmered
08-23-2005, 10:24 PM
If Huggs has to go, Phil Cox should have to go. Nancy talks about good image and that stuff, but Phil Cox's DUI and IRS trouble is ok.

Hypocrite....

But no. Phil got to make a statment behind the podium today as to why Huggs had to go.

Yeah, that's really consistent.

I'm so embarrassed for my school right now. :(

Matt700wlw
08-23-2005, 10:25 PM
Phil Cox should look in the mirror.

So should she. The way she handles business isn't much to write home about. She doesn't have to guts to do it face to face, so she faxes a letter, and then goes on TV and basically says his kids aren't good enough for HER University.

Nance -- those kids that aren't good enough got YOUR Univeristy helped to get it to where it is now.

WVRed
08-23-2005, 10:44 PM
From the ESPN column:



That's an angle I hadn't considered.

If Huggins had gotten Mayo and Co(which was all but a lock), then the pressure would have been insurmountable.

For some reason, I have a feeling Huggins is going to end up at WVU again.

MWM
08-23-2005, 10:54 PM
ESPN just said that Huggins graduated 11 of his last 17 eligible players. Sadly, in this day and age, that's pretty darn good.

Cedric
08-23-2005, 10:59 PM
Why sadly? 11/17 in the general student population would be a bigtime success I would think. This isn't 1955. More and more kids are going to college and honestly there are some that shouldn't be.

RosieRed
08-23-2005, 11:09 PM
Phil Cox should look in the mirror.

So should she. The way she handles business isn't much to write home about. She doesn't have to guts to do it face to face, so she faxes a letter, and then goes on TV and basically says his kids aren't good enough for HER University.

Nance -- those kids that aren't good enough got YOUR Univeristy helped to get it to where it is now.

I can't even imagine how the current and incoming players feel, after her comments.

And I agree on Phil Cox.

gonelong
08-23-2005, 11:10 PM
ESPN just said that Huggins graduated 11 of his last 17 eligible players. Sadly, in this day and age, that's pretty darn good.

Thats probably better than most and might even be better than most schools general population.

Think about how many people that you know that started and didn't finish.

GL

gonelong
08-23-2005, 11:13 PM
What's so funny about that? :)

Heck, my opinion of her just increased a little. :devil:

The fact that she uses "you and me" instead of "you and I" struck me as amusing given her extenstive education at that "place up north".

Of course since you didn't catch that either, maybe that is the way they teach you in that "place up north". :mooner:

GL

Little Alex
08-23-2005, 11:17 PM
In two years, even that arguement will have no merit. The campus has undergone a most amazing Renaissance, albeit mostly of hideous zinc panelling, but it has become a student and architectural haven.

As a UC student for the past 5 years, I agree 100 percent.




The grean space is inspiring and beautiful, and the amenities are top notch.

Woah... slow down. "Inspiring?" They are kind of annoying actually. The green spaces he refers to are big green grass hills randomly placed, usually in the way to a more direct path to and from buildings. However, the grass fields and in particular, the new soccer field, are all quite impressive. But amenities? Well, I'll just let that one pass rather than a 2 page rant on the subject.




The varsity village is on par if not better than some elite programs in the nation, and the recent growth and development around the campus has made it one of the hottest areas in the city.

Are you crazy? Clifton is dead right now. No fast food. Only a handful of bars remain. Someone gets shot or stabbed every other week within a block of campus. I would like to think that in a few years when all the contruction is finished that Clifton will have a rebirth based on the improvements. But as a Clifton resident for 10 years I can tell you that in order to have a rebirth you have to die, and Clifton is dying if not dead. And more unsafe every day.

As far as Varsity Village, I'm glad someone decided that all the students need is junkfood, fastfood, or Subway. I dont know... Waiting for the contruction to end I had hoped for something more with the space and money. I liked the old tangemans too. You could shoot pool, play video games, get a beer, and all that just like the new game room, but the old one was open at night. Gee, wonder why this one closes at 5pm?


Get an above average coach in there, and the program will be fine recruit-wise.

Yeah... and if Mike Brown left town with the Bengals, Cincinnati would get another NFL team. Keep dreaming man. What above average coach is going to coach here? This was a collosal mistake in my opinion, only because of the timing. Sure, Huggins had to go. But let him and the UC program get established in the Big East as big time and then let him walk. But to do it months before starting the first season in a bigger conference is just asking to get established as the doormat. Recruits are already bailing, by the way. Huggins was all this program had to draw recruits here. If you disagree, what else would draw them here? The chili? :laugh:

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 11:22 PM
All that said I hope the change includes a promising or known commodity coach, I have to imagine the city will be pressuring her/UC to do that at least.

Honestly, I don't think she cares. I don't think she cares about the fans, the students, the alumni or the schools reputation. If she really cared she wouldn't have handled this situation like she did. All she cares about is showing everyone who's in charge, to hell with the rest.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 11:22 PM
I'd love to see the Lindner family setup and tell the University they will no longer be getting anymore financial support.

Sponsors are already pulling their support. Montgomery Inn announced tonight that they're gone. No more shows there nor sponsorship money. Mark Williams from Beechmont Ford said on the 11pm news that he is likely to pull out as well.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 11:27 PM
Sponsors are already pulling their support. Montgomery Inn announced tonight that they're gone. No more shows there nor sponsorship money. Mark Williams from Beechmont Ford said on the 11pm news that he is likely to pull out as well.

That's good, but we need a big time booster to do the same. The Lindner family gives millions to the school every year. In all honesty if Montgomery Inn or a car dealer pulls out, nobody at the school will care. If multi-million dollar annual supporter tell them to stick it, they will notice.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 11:28 PM
At no point at UC has he ever asked for more money.

I don't know. UC is releasing letters sent to them from Huggins this summer in which he demanded a contract extention. This is not what he led us to believe at his May press conference when he said he wanted to honor his contract. Seems like he changed his mind. I'm sure those letters will show up on the internet soon.

I hate that Huggs is leaving and I don't think Zimpher has a clue but Huggs isn't going to look too good when all this stuff comes out either.

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 11:30 PM
I don't know. UC is releasing letters sent to them from Huggins this summer in which he demanded a contract extention. This is not what he led us to believe at his May press conference when he said he wanted to honor his contract. Seems like he changed his mind. I'm sure those letters will show up on the internet soon.

I hate that Huggs is leaving and I don't think Zimpher has a clue but Huggs isn't going to look too good when all this stuff comes out either.

He didn't ask for the extension because of money, it was for recruiting. It's hard to recruit players when they know you won't be around.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 11:37 PM
Channel 12 reported tonight that one of his players had a 0.0 GPA at the end of last season. I'm betting he won't be academically eligible this year and so we'll likely hear who that is.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 11:38 PM
He didn't ask for the extension because of money, it was for recruiting. It's hard to recruit players when they know you won't be around.

No question. Zimpher put him in a horrible position.

Sea Ray
08-23-2005, 11:47 PM
Get an above average coach in there, and the program will be fine recruit-wise.

As much as we UC fans think the sky is falling, remember there is life after Bob Huggins. Look at what Xavier has done. It can be argued that they hired three straight coaches that had success that rivaled Huggins...Pete Gillen, Skip Prosser and Thad Matta. You'd think UC being in the Big East and all could attract even better talent than that. If Xavier can do it so can UC

Reds4Life
08-23-2005, 11:57 PM
As much as we UC fans think the sky is falling, remember there is life after Bob Huggins. Look at what Xavier has done. It can be argued that they hired three straight coaches that had success that rivaled Huggins...Pete Gillen, Skip Prosser and Thad Matta. You'd think UC being in the Big East and all could attract even better talent than that. If Xavier can do it so can UC

Normally I would agree, but there is one big problem, Nancy Zimpher. I'm sure potential coaches are watching how poorly this whole thing has been handled. I don't know how many coaches are going to be willing to put up with an overbearing, bossy, micromanaging University President hovering over their shoulder 24/7 to ensure they are running a just, moral, program to gain the approval of Queen Nancy.

Perhaps Nancy should appoint herself head coach, that way she'll know the "bar has been raised".

Cedric
08-24-2005, 12:00 AM
As much as we UC fans think the sky is falling, remember there is life after Bob Huggins. Look at what Xavier has done. It can be argued that they hired three straight coaches that had success that rivaled Huggins...Pete Gillen, Skip Prosser and Thad Matta. You'd think UC being in the Big East and all could attract even better talent than that. If Xavier can do it so can UC

Nope. Clifton is a hell hole honestly. UC can't recruit and what coach in their right mind would take that job?

M2
08-24-2005, 12:05 AM
I'll take the word of those of you who follow this program much more closely than I do that Huggins has gotten a bad rap in the national media. Much of my reaction to this is based on my general disdain for the way big-time programs chew up players and spit them out with no degree and no cash in their pockets if they don't wind up in the NBA. Sadly 11 of 17 is pretty good in this era.

FWIW, I really like the style Huggins' teams play. It's ideal for the Big East, which is the most physical league on the college map. I actually tend to root for UC when I watch the club.

Too bad Skip Prosser and Pete Gillen have ACC gigs. For those concerned about UC's ability to draw a good coach, don't worry. Cincinnati's got a rep as a college basketball hotbed. If the school wants to go hunting for a coach it should land a really good one.

cincinnati chili
08-24-2005, 12:33 AM
I'll never understand why people think more or less of their alma maters because of the performance of sports teams. Big Time Div. I sports are fundamentally corrupt. Of I were an Ohio taxpayer, or still a resident of Clifton, or faculty member, I'd be pretty jazzed about having a president with lofty academic goals.

As MWM and others mentioned, Bob Huggins' bad rep may have been somewhat overstated due to the juco graduation accounting methods. But he disgraced the institution with the caught-on-tape DUI, and that's reason enough to fire him. I also happen to know, from some people in college athletics who I trust, that Hugs' behavior on the bench at away games is sometimes obscene and disgraceful.

Caveat Emperor
08-24-2005, 12:35 AM
Normally I would agree, but there is one big problem, Nancy Zimpher. I'm sure potential coaches are watching how poorly this whole thing has been handled. I don't know how many coaches are going to be willing to put up with an overbearing, bossy, micromanaging University President hovering over their shoulder 24/7 to ensure they are running a just, moral, program to gain the approval of Queen Nancy.

Perhaps Nancy should appoint herself head coach, that way she'll know the "bar has been raised".

Yeah, but you have to wonder what direction the "Zimpher-Era" is going to go now that she has thoroughly pissed off virtually the entire alumni base. I heard that Richard Linder has pulled $20 million out of the university's ongoing development project already, and I can all but guarantee there will be more than a few envelopes returned empty this year.

Stuck with a base that's not going to be too forgiving, bills mounting with no big rainmaker head coach to lean on for support...I don't see how this ends well for Nancy Zimpher now.

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 12:37 AM
I didn't hear anything about Richard Lindner, that's huge if true.

RosieRed
08-24-2005, 12:38 AM
I'll never understand why people think more or less of their alma maters because of the performance of sports teams. Big Time Div. I sports are fundamentally corrupt. Of I were an Ohio taxpayer, or still a resident of Clifton, or faculty member, I'd be pretty jazzed about having a president with lofty academic goals.

As MWM and others mentioned, Bob Huggins' bad rep may have been somewhat overstated due to the juco graduation accounting methods. But he disgraced the institution with the caught-on-tape DUI, and that's reason enough to fire him. I also happen to know, from some people in college athletics who I trust, that Hugs' behavior on the bench at away games is sometimes obscene and disgraceful.

I don't know that I agree about the DUI being a reason to fire him ... but if he had been fired for that, wouldn't they then have to fire every employee who gets a DUI? Such as, I don't know, Phil Cox, the chairman of the board of trustees?

cincinnati chili
08-24-2005, 12:40 AM
I'll be glad to admit it if I'm proven wrong, but I find it VERY hard to believe that there will be a $20 mil. swing from a particular donor due to this firing.

George Foster
08-24-2005, 12:44 AM
The only reason she did this now is because it is to late for the players to transfer. This is a horrible thing to do to those kids. She is an idiot. Huggins will land on his feet, that program won't. 13 NCAA appearances in a row just ended. Sorry UC fans...this sucks.

cincinnati chili
08-24-2005, 12:44 AM
I don't know that I agree about the DUI being a reason to fire him ... but if he had been fired for that, wouldn't they then have to fire every employee who gets a DUI? Such as, I don't know, Phil Cox, the chairman of the board of trustees?

I wouldn't necessarily fire him for sure, but it would certainly be defensible. As an educator he should be held to a hire standard than, say Ryan Freel.

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 12:45 AM
I'll be glad to admit it if I'm proven wrong, but I find it VERY hard to believe that there will be a $20 mil. swing from a particular donor due to this firing.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. You know the entire Lindner family puts huge value on loyalty and local connections, just look at the Reds. If they view this as an outsider (Zimpher) screwing over a Cincinnati mainstay, they can make her life miserable. Without the Lindner family UC wouldn't have it's brand new Varsity Village complex. If they do pull out, UC is in a world of hurt, and so is Nancy Zimpher.

cincinnati chili
08-24-2005, 12:49 AM
As a UC student for the past 5 years, I agree 100 percent.





Woah... slow down. "Inspiring?" They are kind of annoying actually. The green spaces he refers to are big green grass hills randomly placed, usually in the way to a more direct path to and from buildings. However, the grass fields and in particular, the new soccer field, are all quite impressive. But amenities? Well, I'll just let that one pass rather than a 2 page rant on the subject.





Are you crazy? Clifton is dead right now. No fast food. Only a handful of bars remain. Someone gets shot or stabbed every other week within a block of campus. I would like to think that in a few years when all the contruction is finished that Clifton will have a rebirth based on the improvements. But as a Clifton resident for 10 years I can tell you that in order to have a rebirth you have to die, and Clifton is dying if not dead. And more unsafe every day.

As far as Varsity Village, I'm glad someone decided that all the students need is junkfood, fastfood, or Subway. I dont know... Waiting for the contruction to end I had hoped for something more with the space and money. I liked the old tangemans too. You could shoot pool, play video games, get a beer, and all that just like the new game room, but the old one was open at night. Gee, wonder why this one closes at 5pm?



Yeah... and if Mike Brown left town with the Bengals, Cincinnati would get another NFL team. Keep dreaming man. What above average coach is going to coach here? This was a collosal mistake in my opinion, only because of the timing. Sure, Huggins had to go. But let him and the UC program get established in the Big East as big time and then let him walk. But to do it months before starting the first season in a bigger conference is just asking to get established as the doormat. Recruits are already bailing, by the way. Huggins was all this program had to draw recruits here. If you disagree, what else would draw them here? The chili? :laugh:

Great to get your perspective, Alex.

I was raised in Clifton. My dad's still UC faculty, and has been for about 35 years.

I drove down Calhoun St. this summer and couldn't believe it.

I think you've got a good sense of perspective. It's dead now. The university will buy up that land and develop it in about 3-5 years... which means nothing of course if you are attending NOW!

Good luck. If the local sponsors don't throw their stupid tantrums, you'll probably attract a good coach, simply by virtue of being a Big East school in a city that probably has the lowest cost of living in the conference.

WVRedsFan
08-24-2005, 12:50 AM
The problem with this is that the UC basketball program is going to suffer the same fate as Indiana. Because of the timing, they had no time to hire who they really wanted to. Mike Davis was shoved into the role and because he didn't fall flat on his face, there was so much pressure put on the university making them feel like they had an obligation to rehire him. The reality was that he didn't do all that great, but the national media backed them into a corner to hire a guy they really didn't want.

Now if the interim coach coaches the team to the tourney, even if they are nothing more than average, there will be the same pressure to bring him back that there was Mike Davis.

Case in point: John Beilein at West Virginia. Huggins was the leading candidate for the job vacated by Gale Catlett (another UC coach at one time). The administration offered Huggins a crumb only because the alumni wanted him so bad. When they made him an offer he couldn't accept, he stayed at UC. Then they hired Dan Dakitch (Bowling Green) and he stayed just less than 72 hours. Then they hired Beilein. Beilein took a 8-20+ team to nearly a winning record the first year, a 17-14 record the second year, and the Elite Eight last year in what can only be described as entirely luck. He gets a contract extention and immediately recruits players who couldn't play for Miami of Ohio, much less a Big East team. He's a hero now, but...

Beware, UC fans, your president, much like ours, set the tone for the future. A clean team that wins a few. Get used to it.

To put Bobby's reign in perspective, I coached a junior high basketball team my first year as a teacher because the head guy needed someone to sit with him. Our team was rough and had a lot of future criminals on it (four of them have served time that I know of), and you could have pointed to us as the problem. We also had some good kids on there who have been quite successful, but the public view has always been that the team was a bunch of thugs. It ended my "coaching" career (though I really didn't coach), but the institution is really to blame. No PR from their side and no effort to stop what was the perception of what was going on.

Nancy thinks she has ridded herself of the "ruffians." She's in for a big surprise as she enters the Big East. My guess is Mike Tranghese is already cussing himself for including UC in the mix.

WVRedsFan
08-24-2005, 12:52 AM
If Huggins had gotten Mayo and Co(which was all but a lock), then the pressure would have been insurmountable.

For some reason, I have a feeling Huggins is going to end up at WVU again.

That's my prayer. It will have to be after the pompous President there leaves. Nancy=David Hardesty.

Caveat Emperor
08-24-2005, 12:53 AM
I'll never understand why people think more or less of their alma maters because of the performance of sports teams. Big Time Div. I sports are fundamentally corrupt. Of I were an Ohio taxpayer, or still a resident of Clifton, or faculty member, I'd be pretty jazzed about having a president with lofty academic goals.

Because, like it or not, no university has ever been featured primetime on ESPN because it has a great Biology department.

And I think exactly the opposite is true for the reaction that residents of Clifton and taxpayers should have about "lofty academic goals." That phrase is synonymous with higher tuition and greater student selectivity. It means turning what used to be an affordable way for people of all walks of life in Cincinnati to go and get an education into an institution dedicated to only the top level of students and more out-of-state students (with the higher, out-of-state tuition) to pay for the increased costs. That's not good for the taxpayers...that's a university abdicating it's functioning and the good of the people in favor of catering to a very small slice of academia.

And all for what? I hate to be the voice of reality, but without a giant endowment and a full-out commitment by the university AND it's alumni donors, the school is never going to come close to competing with the traditional academic elite of the nation. The rankings used by most to determine "academic status" are more subjective than even the worst of the sports polls, and the rest of reputation is just "hearsay" based on what people think and have heard about the school. So, if you're just fighting for better positioning in the middle, what's the point?

Cedric
08-24-2005, 01:03 AM
Great points Caveat.

cincinnati chili
08-24-2005, 01:05 AM
I see what you're getting at, CE. Intellectually, I understand that univ. presidents have to make some concessions for boosters and doners at the expense of academic integrity.

I also understand, for PR reasons, that nothing gets alumni back on campus like sports events. And when alumni show up on campus, they get all nostalgic and open their wallets.

I just don't think people who really care about their institution should stop giving entirely, just because their coach can't keep his job in perpetuity, particularly when there's a pretty compelling ethical argument to can him.

SHAMELESS SELF-PROMOTION COMING: For those who are really interested in the balancing act that university prezes like NZ have to undertake with athletics and Big-Time Div. I sports, I co-authored (and researched my ass off) a study in 2003.

It's a big PDF, so it may take a while to load (See Introduction on page 3, through approximately page 45):

http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research2003.pdf

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2005, 01:08 AM
Here is Andy Katz's ESPN article about who may take over in the future.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2141576


Kennedy quick fix at Cincy, but what about long term?By Andy Katz
ESPN.com

Andy Kennedy has a choice that Mike Davis and Steve Lavin didn't have in similar circumstances.

Neither Davis, at Indiana under Bob Knight, nor Lavin, at UCLA under Jim Harrick, was a close personal friend of his head coach when both were abruptly fired before the season. So, when Davis and Lavin were offered to be the interim coach at their respective schools, there were no personal reasons to turn down the job, regardless of what the head coaches thought about the school or their replacement.

Kennedy, the associate head coach at Cincinnati, is a close friend of Bob Huggins. That could make a tough transition for Kennedy. But, according to one source, Huggins is expected to stay out of any attempt to hire Kennedy on an interim basis in the hope that would be best for the program and his players.

A source close to the situation told ESPN.com that Kennedy hadn't been offered the job as of late Tuesday night. But that would seem appropriate since Huggins hadn't officially been fired or resigned and won't be until 2 p.m. Wednesday. Huggins on Tuesday was in Las Vegas at the Michael Jordan Flight School, a fantasy camp for adults, and was making his way back to Cincinnati to decide his fate at the school.

A source close to the situation told ESPN.com that hiring Kennedy would keep the team intact considering Kennedy recruited the players on the current roster. Certainly the four returning seniors -- James White, Armein Kirkland, Eric Hicks and Jihad Muhammad -- aren't going anywhere since they have only one season of eligibility remaining. Cincinnati's school year starts in late September and is on the quarter system, making transferring to another semester institution (many start this week) extremely difficult.

But there are seven newcomers who could think about other destinations in the next few days. The Bearcats have a strong newcomer class led by junior college forwards Ivan Johnson and Cedric McGowan as well as expected high school impact players point guard Devan Downey, small forward DeAndre Coleman and center Abdul Herrera.

These top eight players should keep Cincinnati competitive in the Big East in its first season with making the NCAA Tournament a legitimate goal and that's one reason ESPN.com pegged Cincinnati at No. 22 in its Summer Sizzling Top 50 last week.

Multiple sources told ESPN.com that hiring Kennedy would also be the safer choice for the administration since athletic director Bob Goin is out in June. Cincinnati officials made it clear at a news conference Tuesday that they would speed up Goin's replacement search. That could mean a new AD by January, but that still leaves a tenuous situation to hire a fulltime coach until then.

One source who knows Cincinnati president Nancy Zimpher well said he wouldn't be surprised to see Zimpher hire the head basketball coach regardless of a new AD. Clearly, she has shown with the Huggins ultimatum Tuesday that she is willing to take matters into her own hands.

There are coaches who aren't tied to a school who are available such as ESPN analyst Rick Majerus, former Virginia coach Pete Gillen and Cincinnati great and Hall of Fame member Oscar Robertson, who came in last July to oversee the program when Huggins was suspended for the summer of 2004 after a DUI.

But the likely scenario is that Kennedy would be tapped for the foreseeable future. And then the search would likely open up to coaches across the country, assuming Kennedy wouldn't be given the chance to remain fulltime. A new AD would likely have to let Kennedy know when he was on board if he had a shot at the job. If he comes in by January then he would have time to evaluate Kennedy.

One name to take off the list of any future candidacies is Bruce Pearl. Pearl would have been a hot name for the job if this were March since he worked for Zimpher at UW-Milwaukee and then took the Panthers to the Sweet 16. But Pearl is now at Tennessee and off limits to Cincinnati.

One prominent coach, thought to be a possible candidate, who requested he not be named, said about the position, "What fool would follow Huggins? I wouldn't go. Hugs is a tough guy to follow. It would be like following Tark [Jerry Tarkanian] at UNLV or John Calipari at UMass. Cincinnati wasn't much before he got there.''

There will be plenty of names thrown out throughout the course of the season, coaches in the Mid-American conference, Big East, top assistants and anyone who might have a connection to Cincinnati.

But, for now, it appears Kennedy would be given the first crack at following Huggins. Kennedy, a candidate for jobs in the Southeast after playing at UAB, would be the bridge from the Huggins era to a reign that is still undetermined and might not be known for some time until the AD search can be completed with a new hire, possibly in early 2006.

savafan
08-24-2005, 01:20 AM
I can't believe that Huggins will be at UC for long. It's sad that she's running Huggins out, and probably won't be at UC for the long haul herself.

TeamBoone
08-24-2005, 02:05 AM
Good luck. If the local sponsors don't throw their stupid tantrums, you'll probably attract a good coach, simply by virtue of being a Big East school in a city that probably has the lowest cost of living in the conference.

I don't know all the cities in the Big East.... but I do know that the cost of living in Syracuse is quite a bit lower than Cincinnati; probably Louisville is too.

TeamBoone
08-24-2005, 02:17 AM
I'll never understand why people think more or less of their alma maters because of the performance of sports teams. Big Time Div. I sports are fundamentally corrupt. Of I were an Ohio taxpayer, or still a resident of Clifton, or faculty member, I'd be pretty jazzed about having a president with lofty academic goals.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with lofty academic goals, but they don't have to be achieved at the expense of anhialating a sports program that brings in a whole lot of money and a whole lot of prestige.

I think we ALL know that is not what the Bob Huggins firing is about, even though NZ tried her darndest to make it sound that way.




As MWM and others mentioned, Bob Huggins' bad rep may have been somewhat overstated due to the juco graduation accounting methods. But he disgraced the institution with the caught-on-tape DUI, and that's reason enough to fire him. I also happen to know, from some people in college athletics who I trust, that Hugs' behavior on the bench at away games is sometimes obscene and disgraceful.

He's not the only one in the institution who has been arrested, so why make him the scapegoat? That aside, if he was to be fired as a result of that incident, why not do it then? The timing is nothing but a power play.

And, yeah, you're right about his behavior on the bench. But you know what? I haven't seen but a handful of coaches out there that are calm, cool, and collected during a heated basketball game. More often than not, almost any coach, at any given time, during any given game, could be described as sometimes obscene and disgraceful.

WVRedsFan
08-24-2005, 02:27 AM
I don't know all the cities in the Big East.... but I do know that the cost of living in Syracuse is quite a bit lower than Cincinnati; probably Louisville is too.

Try Morgantown, WV. The king of cheap living.

Spent four years there...

cincinnati chili
08-24-2005, 07:50 AM
I don't know all the cities in the Big East.... but I do know that the cost of living in Syracuse is quite a bit lower than Cincinnati; probably Louisville is too.

Just one source, but according to salary.com's cost of living Calculator, you're correct about Louisville, but not Syracuse. I had forgotten about Louisville going in:

Just for yucks, I popped in a $500,000 salary for a new head coach.

"The cost of living in Syracuse, NY is 3.5% higher than in Cincinnati, OH. Therefore, you would have to earn a salary of $517,281 to maintain your current standard of living." (http://swz.salary.com/costoflivingwizard/layoutscripts/coll_result.asp?presentsalary=500000&presenthomemetrocode=36&presentworkmetrocode=36&newhomemetrocode=178&newworkmetrocode=178&x=23&y=4)

There are so many hidden expenses in the Northeast from taxes, tolls, higher car insurance, etc. that life is almost always more expensive, even if you're in a town where housing is reasonable.

The cost of living in Louisville, KY is 3.2% lower than in Cincinnati, OH. Therefore, you would have to earn a salary of $484,007 to maintain your current standard of living. (http://swz.salary.com/costoflivingwizard/layoutscripts/coll_result.asp?presentsalary=500000&presenthomemetrocode=36&presentworkmetrocode=36&newhomemetrocode=99&newworkmetrocode=99&x=7&y=7)

But on the face of it, my comment was probably dumb. While metro Philly, and metro NYC are hella-pricey, Pittsburgh is a lot like Cincinnati. And Boston College just left.

Caseyfan21
08-24-2005, 08:20 AM
What does everyone think this will do to the recruiting?

I would have to think that UD, Xavier, and OSU are rejoicing in private right now being some of the main schools that recruit against UC.

UC, even though it is getting a lot nicer on campus, still is not in a nice neighborhood and has an image of not being too nice. I know this isn't completely accurate but perception is perception. You would have to think that the campus wouldn't be drawing recruits.

Hugs was a very dynamic person that I think was UC's best recruiting chip in basketball. He had a presence, he had a record of winning, and he had a record of getting guys to the NBA. I think these traits were what drew stars to UC. Where does that leave UC without him? They can sell being in the Big East and maybe still sell their winning tradition, but they don't have much.

Personally, if I were a recruit, I could find much more positives at OSU (Matta, hot recruiting class, tradition), UD (Gregory, campus), or Xavier. UC might find themselves losing a lot of in-state recruiting battles here over the next several years.

Roy Tucker
08-24-2005, 08:29 AM
It will be interesting to see what transpires today, quit or fired. Or Huggins legal action. I can't see Zimpher backing down.

I think her's is a laudable goal to upgrade all aspects of UC education and I see nothing wrong with it. She's blown up the UC hoops program and her legacy will be how she rebuilds it.

However, I think her execution stinks and she rivals John Allen for putting forth a positive public image. Her barely-concealed gleeful performance yesterday was shameful.

My son is to DAAP architecture at UC (hopefully) and the basketball program (and athletics) had absolutely 0% share in the decision making.

Chip R
08-24-2005, 08:52 AM
However, I think her execution stinks and she rivals John Allen for putting forth a positive public image. Her barely-concealed gleeful performance yesterday was shameful.

I saw a little bit of that on the news last night and she seemed almost giddy.

I wonder what will happen if Dantonio gets the football program to the next level. It's not exactly like he's got to compete in the SEC or Big 10. It's not completely out of the question that he can go to a BCS bowl or two. If he starts to become as big of a name as Huggins is, is Zimpher going to force him out too? Most likely she won't get the chance because he - and every other coach there - knows now that if they get a better offer elsewhere, they better take it. There are many more football players than basketball players. Logic would tell you that there is a greater chance of a player being involved in legal problems or not pulling his weight in the classroom on the football team than there would be on the basketball team. If that happens is Dantonio going to face the same consequences as Huggins did?

TeamBoone
08-24-2005, 09:07 AM
Just one source, but according to salary.com's cost of living Calculator, you're correct about Louisville, but not Syracuse. I had forgotten about Louisville going in:

Just for yucks, I popped in a $500,000 salary for a new head coach.

There are so many hidden expenses in the Northeast from taxes, tolls, higher car insurance, etc. that life is almost always more expensive, even if you're in a town where housing is reasonable.

I don't know what their source is but I lived within 60 miles of Syracuse for a long time before I moved here.... and the cost of living there is DEFINITELY lower, especially when it comes to buying a comparable home. My car insurance is also much higher here. The only thing I discovered to be cheaper was my property/school taxes, and even they have risen significantly and may be comparable to the upstate NY area by now.

Lumping the entire Northeast into one segment tells me nothing. You can not compare Syracuse with Boston and New York City which skews these numbers significantly.

TeamCasey
08-24-2005, 09:13 AM
I can't believe a race card hasn't been pulled out on this.

When I listened to Zimpher speak, I was reading that between the lines. I have yet to hear anyone else say it. I thought she could have just held up a banner that she didn't want poor, urban, black youth at HER university.

TeamCasey
08-24-2005, 09:15 AM
I don't know what their source is but I lived within 60 miles of Syracuse for a long time before I moved here....

Not taking sides (I'm not sure I understand what you two are debating.)

That particular southern tier area is cheaper than central NY though.

Caveat Emperor
08-24-2005, 09:26 AM
I can't believe a race card hasn't been pulled out on this.

When I listened to Zimpher speak, I was reading that between the lines. I have yet to hear anyone else say it. I thought she could have just held up a banner that she didn't want poor, urban, black youth at HER university.

That's the giant elephant in the room right now.

Jeremy Piergallini
08-24-2005, 09:33 AM
Jason Bennett a 7-2 center will now not committ.
Nick Aldridge, 6-8 PF, has backed off of his verbal committment and will now wait and see.

A few of the guys they got this year are seriously considering backing out because of the coaching change. Devan Downey being the main one.

Mayo, Walker and Ellis will NOT attend UC without Huggins.
Jason Maxiell already has said that if he is fired, that he probably will never step foot on that campus again.

If she was going to do this, she should have done it way back in the summer. To allow for a coaching search and stuff for some continuity would have been nice. BUt she doesn't care. Firing him, what, a week or two before practice begins while moving into a new conference. Hard to fathom. Darth ZImpher and the Dark Side may have won.

MWM
08-24-2005, 09:34 AM
The fact that she uses "you and me" instead of "you and I" struck me as amusing given her extenstive education at that "place up north".

Of course since you didn't catch that either, maybe that is the way they teach you in that "place up north". :mooner:

GL

GL, "you and me" is often the correct grammar. Actually, people using "you and I" when "you and me" should be used is the more common error. If I'm remembering my english correctly, whenever you'd use "me" if you were speaking in the singular, you also use me when speaking in the plural (i.e. "you and me").

In this particular case, I'm not 100% sure which one is correct, but I think she's actually correct in her usage. Maybe one of our resident grammar experts can opine. Isn't this fun? :devil:

Anyhow, do you really want to go down the path of discussing the academics of the U of M compared to those schools in Ohio? :evil:

Chip R
08-24-2005, 09:43 AM
GL, "you and me" is often the correct grammar. Actually, people using "you and I" when "you and me" should be used is the more common error. If I'm remembering my english correctly, whenever you'd use "me" if you were speaking in the singular, you also use me when speaking in the plural (i.e. "you and me").

In this particular case, I'm not 100% sure which one is correct, but I think she's actually correct in her usage. Maybe one of our resident grammar experts can opine. Isn't this fun? :devil:

A good rule of thumb would be to take out the "you and" part and see if it makes more sense with "you" or "I". Example: MWM and I went to the game with Gonelong. Gonelong bought MWM and me a beer at the game. :beerme:

15fan
08-24-2005, 10:23 AM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with lofty academic goals, but they don't have to be achieved at the expense of anhialating a sports program that brings in a whole lot of money and a whole lot of prestige.

TB -

With all due respect, that's the tail wagging the dog. And as an outsider, I'd argue that the "prestige" associated with Huggins' teams also brought with it a lot of baggage and a less than sterling rep.

Schools exist first and foremost to foster an environment that allows for the creation and transmission of knowledge.

(IOW - Research and Teaching, in no particular order.)

Remember what all those activities like the newspaper, yearbook, sports teams, and chess club were called in middle school / junior high / high school?

Extracurricular activies.

From the good folks at m-w.com :

Main Entry: ex·tra·cur·ric·u·lar
Pronunciation: "ek-str&-k&-'ri-ky&-l&r
Function: adjective
1 : not falling within the scope of a regular curriculum; specifically : of or relating to officially or semiofficially approved and usually organized student activities (as athletics) connected with school and usually carrying no academic credit

Same thing in college. Sports, no matter how much money they generate, are extracurricular activities. Those things complement a university experience. They are not at the center of the experience.

As far as Zimpher is concerned, I wouldn't know her from any other stranger on the face of the earth. But I do know a little bit about the way things work in higher education. My guess is that before Zimpher made the decision, she talked to some of the big time donors and boosters. I'd bet that at least some of them were on board with this before she pulled the trigger. Heck, some of them may have wanted her to pull the trigger earlier.

And those of you who are wringing your hands over the fact that Huggins' departure means the downfall of UC hoops, I offer this:

UCLA won a men's basketball national title after John Wooden.
Alabama won a football national title after Bear Bryant.
Ohio State won a national football title after Woody Hayes.
Michigan won a national football title after Bo Schembechler.
North Carolina won a men's basketball national title after Dean Smith.
The Reds won a World Series after Sparky Anderson.

Huggins' departure isn't the end of the world.

gonelong
08-24-2005, 10:53 AM
GL, "you and me" is often the correct grammar. Actually, people using "you and I" when "you and me" should be used is the more common error. If I'm remembering my english correctly, whenever you'd use "me" if you were speaking in the singular, you also use me when speaking in the plural (i.e. "you and me").

Ok, today I learnt sumthin. :fineprint

The prescriptive rule is to use "you and I" in the same contexts as "I" (i.e., as a subject), and "you and me" in the same contexts as "me" (i.e., as an object). In "between you and me", since "you and me" is the object of the preposition "between", "me" is the only correct form.



Anyhow, do you really want to go down the path of discussing the academics of the U of M compared to those schools in Ohio? :evil:

No, how boring - besides you can make statistics say anything you want. ;)

I should know better than to stick my nose in anything remotely related to the english language. I have a fairly extensive vocabulary but I can't spell and really have no business correcting the grammer of anyone else. :redface:

Que: This land was made for you and me ...:usa:

GL

gonelong
08-24-2005, 10:59 AM
TB -

And those of you who are wringing your hands over the fact that Huggins' departure means the downfall of UC hoops, I offer this:

Huggins' departure isn't the end of the world.

All of those programs are top of the line - UC is not in that class. They have top notch people clamoring to get into those situations - not UC.

UC is in for some tough years ahead.

While it isn't the end of the world ... it very likely might be the end of the world as we know it for UC basketball.

GL

Caveat Emperor
08-24-2005, 11:02 AM
With all due respect, that's the tail wagging the dog. And as an outsider, I'd argue that the "prestige" associated with Huggins' teams also brought with it a lot of baggage and a less than sterling rep.

Of course, the argument could also be made that the University of Cincinnati, without Bob Huggins, would have next to nothing in the "Prestige" department anyway. I'd argue that you can get a good to above-average education at any number of places...things like primetime sports coverage put institutions over the top by getting the name out there to a wide audiance of individuals. Let's face it, every kid in America knows where Duke is before they ever sit down to fill out an application...how many can make the same statement about Emory?

And, although everyone cites the negative impact Bob Huggins has on the University's prestige...how many people here honestly believe that a single guidance counselor out there tells a prospective student "Well, I think you have to consider what a thuggish basketball program they have before attending"?


And those of you who are wringing your hands over the fact that Huggins' departure means the downfall of UC hoops, I offer this:

UCLA won a men's basketball national title after John Wooden.
Alabama won a football national title after Bear Bryant.
Ohio State won a national football title after Woody Hayes.
Michigan won a national football title after Bo Schembechler.
North Carolina won a men's basketball national title after Dean Smith.
The Reds won a World Series after Sparky Anderson.

Huggins' departure isn't the end of the world.

UC Hoops will survive, since Huggins and Co. carried the program to a major conference and a national profile. The real sin is seeing someone who can be mentioned in the same category as those individuals (in terms of importance to a school, not victories per se) thrown out on the street in such short order.

Chip R
08-24-2005, 11:24 AM
TB -

With all due respect, that's the tail wagging the dog. And as an outsider, I'd argue that the "prestige" associated with Huggins' teams also brought with it a lot of baggage and a less than sterling rep.

Schools exist first and foremost to foster an environment that allows for the creation and transmission of knowledge.

(IOW - Research and Teaching, in no particular order.)

Remember what all those activities like the newspaper, yearbook, sports teams, and chess club were called in middle school / junior high / high school?

Extracurricular activies.

From the good folks at m-w.com :

Main Entry: ex·tra·cur·ric·u·lar
Pronunciation: "ek-str&-k&-'ri-ky&-l&r
Function: adjective
1 : not falling within the scope of a regular curriculum; specifically : of or relating to officially or semiofficially approved and usually organized student activities (as athletics) connected with school and usually carrying no academic credit

Same thing in college. Sports, no matter how much money they generate, are extracurricular activities. Those things complement a university experience. They are not at the center of the experience.

As far as Zimpher is concerned, I wouldn't know her from any other stranger on the face of the earth. But I do know a little bit about the way things work in higher education. My guess is that before Zimpher made the decision, she talked to some of the big time donors and boosters. I'd bet that at least some of them were on board with this before she pulled the trigger. Heck, some of them may have wanted her to pull the trigger earlier.

And those of you who are wringing your hands over the fact that Huggins' departure means the downfall of UC hoops, I offer this:

UCLA won a men's basketball national title after John Wooden.
Alabama won a football national title after Bear Bryant.
Ohio State won a national football title after Woody Hayes.
Michigan won a national football title after Bo Schembechler.
North Carolina won a men's basketball national title after Dean Smith.
The Reds won a World Series after Sparky Anderson.

Huggins' departure isn't the end of the world.

In theory you're correct. But in the real world, these extracurricular activities bring in a lot of money into these schools. It's not like intramural football. There are poeple who go to these schools because of the athletics who aren't even athletes. If these programs didn't generate huge amounts of revenue, no one would care. That's why we see programs like wrestling and baseball and swimming and golf being cut by colleges because they don't bring in the revenue that football and basketball do.

Huggins has brought in a lot of guys who have had baggage. But who let them into the university? If the university thought these kids would be troublemakers or wouldn't go to classes or leave early for the NBA why did they admit them in the first place. I'm sure Huggins would have preferred to get great players who had good academic credentials but they all went to Duke. ;) I'm pretty sure they didn't hire him to graduate all his kids and make sure they stayed out of trouble. They hired him to win games. Perhaps they created somewhat of a monster but it was a monster of their own making.

Now some of the revenus that the basketball program brings in is used for other things than Huggins buying himself another ivory covered back scratcher. Some of that revenue is used for the lesser programs there that don't generate much revenue of their own. If hoops isn't going to bring that revenue in, where's it going to come from? Certainly not the football program which probably can't pay for itself. Sure, they will get somewhat of a bump from going into the Big East but the main reason they got into that conference to begin with is either going to quit or be fired today. In a few years, due to the loss of revenue from the basketball program, will UC cut some of these non-revenue sports? Is the new baseball stadium going to sit empty and have weeds growing over it?

The sun did come up today and I suppose it will come up tomorrow. And you're right, other programs have had success after their legends have left. Maybe UC hoops will bounce back and maybe it won't. It's the university's right to hire and fire who they want but why wait until 2 months before the season starts? If they wanted to fire him, why not do it after the season so they can have time to get a permanant coach? Why do it a couple of months after the season tickets have been ordered and lead these people on that Huggins would be back? If they think the basketball program there is causing so many problems, why not just drop it? If these programs at our institutions of higher learning are just complementing the experience there, why not just drop them all and make them club sports or just have intramurals and nothing else?

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 12:14 PM
Local news is reporting that Huggins is livid at the way Nancy Zimpher has portrayed the current players, and might just let the deadline pass and force the school to fire him.

traderumor
08-24-2005, 12:21 PM
This ordeal reminds me of the problems tOSU had in the late 50s to early60s when the powers that be would not let the football team go to the Rose Bowl because they did not want to be known as a "football school" and wanted to be known as an academic institution first and foremost. Woody Hayes was about as popular as Huggins was outside of OSU as well, although Woody had an upperhand with academic reputation of his program and showed them that the two could happily co-exist and that tOSU could have top notch academic programs (still have many programs rated very highly) and a top notch big money athletic program.

REDREAD
08-24-2005, 12:26 PM
Exactly. I'm not sure why any educational institution allows clowns like Huggins in the door or runs sports programs that are little more than four years of indentured servitude without a real education or a degree attached to them..

I'm not disagreeing with you, you have a good point. But I'd like to point out that plenty of non-athletes also waste the opportunity they are given when they go to college. Some party so hard that they flunk out, and others do the bare minimum to get by (scoping out all the easy classes, etc). I was a bit guilty of that myself.

It's hard for me to fault the NCAA system that much though. In exchange for bringing in money for the school, the athletes are given an opportunity to get a degree and improve their future. Or they're given a few years to fine tune their skills for the NBA. They can quit the team at any time, or transfer to another school.

The NCAA could crack down on admissions standards and demand that athletes have a higher GPA or SAT, but IMO, that would do more damage. Lots of kids would be shut out from the opportunity to get an education.

TeamCasey
08-24-2005, 12:42 PM
Huggins news conference just before 2:00.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/08/24/huggins.html

Update us working folks.

REDREAD
08-24-2005, 12:55 PM
I don't know all the cities in the Big East.... but I do know that the cost of living in Syracuse is quite a bit lower than Cincinnati; probably Louisville is too.

IMO, cost of living is probably one of the last things coaches consider when accepting a job. The established guys are making plenty of money, and the unestablished guys are hungry for the opportunity.

My guess is that UC hires a squeeky clean guy that overstresses GPA and the team will probably take 10 years to recover from that. That's what happened to NC State after Valvano got fired. We got squeeky clean Les Robinson, a few years of having one of the best GPAs in the conference, but basically becoming a doormat as Valvano's recruits graduated. Finally, the University moved Robinson to the front office and brought in Sandek, who is pretty good but it's hard to recruit in the ACC when the kids have grown up seeing NC State as the doormat.

I see the same thing happening to UC. It will take a couple years for all of Huggins' recruits to leave, but then be prepared for a 10 year draught. When the school decides it wants to win games again, they'll be starting from scratch, and that's extremely tough to do.

Heath
08-24-2005, 12:56 PM
Johnny Dawkins seems like a fit for what the University President wants.......(whatever that is)

Cedric
08-24-2005, 12:58 PM
Nobody would want this job, Big East or not. Who would wanna follow Huggins? And how do you recruit Duke players at Clifton? Isn't possible.

flyer85
08-24-2005, 01:24 PM
Who would wanna follow Huggins?from Andy Katz column


one prominent coach, thought to be a possible candidate, who requested he not be named, said about the position, "What fool would follow Huggins? I wouldn't go. Hugs is a tough guy to follow. It would be like following Tark at UNLV or John Calipari at UMass. Cincinnati wasn't much before he got there."

redsfan30
08-24-2005, 01:34 PM
WLW is reporting there is no news confernece as reported by WCPO.

Little Alex
08-24-2005, 01:42 PM
And, although everyone cites the negative impact Bob Huggins has on the University's prestige...how many people here honestly believe that a single guidance counselor out there tells a prospective student "Well, I think you have to consider what a thuggish basketball program they have before attending"?



:thumbup: Well said.

KronoRed
08-24-2005, 01:46 PM
Nobody would want this job, Big East or not. Who would wanna follow Huggins? And how do you recruit Duke players at Clifton? Isn't possible.
Wall up the U and only let roads from Indian Hill in

15fan
08-24-2005, 02:07 PM
In case anyone missed it a few posts above, let's make sure everyone reads the blurb from Andy Katz again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2141576

"One prominent coach, thought to be a possible candidate, who requested he not be named, said about the position, "What fool would follow Huggins? I wouldn't go. Hugs is a tough guy to follow. It would be like following Tark [Jerry Tarkanian] at UNLV or John Calipari at UMass."

What's really sad is that some folks will insist that statement was meant as a compliment.

redsfan30
08-24-2005, 02:07 PM
WLW news reports Huggins' agent says there will be a 2:30 PM news conference.

I'm assuming it will be covered live.

CincyRedsFan30
08-24-2005, 02:14 PM
They say the news conference for 2:30 has now been cancelled. No reason why.

Cedric
08-24-2005, 02:28 PM
In case anyone missed it a few posts above, let's make sure everyone reads the blurb from Andy Katz again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2141576

"One prominent coach, thought to be a possible candidate, who requested he not be named, said about the position, "What fool would follow Huggins? I wouldn't go. Hugs is a tough guy to follow. It would be like following Tark [Jerry Tarkanian] at UNLV or John Calipari at UMass."

What's really sad is that some folks will insist that statement was meant as a compliment.

Have you paid much attention to UMASS or UNLV lately? They are two of the worst programs in the NCAA. So just because you read Tark you take it as mouthing Huggins, I sure as hell dont'. Unless you want to argue that UMass and UNLV actually did fine after Tark and Cal.

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 02:33 PM
I don't know. UC is releasing letters sent to them from Huggins this summer in which he demanded a contract extention. This is not what he led us to believe at his May press conference when he said he wanted to honor his contract. Seems like he changed his mind. I'm sure those letters will show up on the internet soon.

I hate that Huggs is leaving and I don't think Zimpher has a clue but Huggs isn't going to look too good when all this stuff comes out either.

He may have demanded a contract extension in order to better do his job. He did everything that was asked of him since Nancy came in. Nancy gave him the "option" to play out the rest of his contract, but probably didn't think he'd accept lame duck coach status and he'd just walk away. She got everything she wanted out of him....season ticket sales, a recruiting class going into the Big East, and the fans thinking there is hope that things could work out. People re-newed tickets and donated their money with the understanding that Bob Huggins would continue to be the coach, and now she's pulling the plug and decieving everybody.

He's not going to just back down, that's not Huggins and never has been. He will fight this until the very end. And I can't blame him.

WVRed
08-24-2005, 02:35 PM
Wonder if Huggins let the deadline tick and Nancy blinked? Its possible.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2005, 02:37 PM
Wonder if Huggins let the deadline tick and Nancy blinked? Its possible. That's what I am wondering too. We are now 35 minutes past the deadline. 2 reported news conferences have been cancelled. The only other thing this might be is lawyers arguing over the size of his severance package.

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 02:38 PM
Wonder if Huggins let the deadline tick and Nancy blinked? Its possible.

If that's the case, and he wins this, she may as well just resign.

Montgomery Inn has officially pulled out. The coaches show is now in studio, starting tomorrow -- they may not be the only ones.

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 02:38 PM
Wonder if Huggins let the deadline tick and Nancy blinked? Its possible.

I doubt it, her ego wouldn't allow that. The only way she'd change her mind is if a big time doner got to her last night.

According to Willie (so take this for what it's worth), a "major doner who's name is on the side of a building" has threatened to pull out of a $5 million a year contract and that is holding things up.

Heath
08-24-2005, 02:38 PM
That's what I am wondering too. We are now 35 minutes past the deadline. 2 reported news conferences have been cancelled. The only other thing this might be is lawyers arguing over the size of his severance package.

I'd give that last sentence a "bingo"....

Huggy isn't going down with out a fight.

WVRed
08-24-2005, 02:40 PM
I read this from somebody with an inside source on the scout.com Bearcats board. Take it for what its worth.


Here's what I've heard from an inside source:
Nancy Z absolutely, positively HATES Huggins.
Huggins is in final negotiations to be bought out of contract.
Huggins will not be at UC at start of the '05 season.
Andy Kennedy will be made interim coach for the season.

Now comes the crazier part:
Skip Prosser wants to get back to Cincinnati
His wife has never left Cincinnati
UC will announce Prosser as head coach in April 2006

May 2006: Mayo and Walker commit to UC

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 02:58 PM
Man, this is strange, one hour past and not a peep. Maybe the doners did get to Nancy.

Benihana
08-24-2005, 02:59 PM
I read this from somebody with an inside source on the scout.com Bearcats board. Take it for what its worth.

Now THAT would be crazy...I wish ill things upon Nancy Zimpher's career :angry:

15fan
08-24-2005, 03:12 PM
Have you paid much attention to UMASS or UNLV lately? They are two of the worst programs in the NCAA. So just because you read Tark you take it as mouthing Huggins, I sure as hell dont'. Unless you want to argue that UMass and UNLV actually did fine after Tark and Cal.

The way that I'm reading that quote, Huggins is being compared to Tarkanian and Calipari. I genuinely think the the unnamed coach meant it as a compliment. IMO, it's more of a character indictment rather than a compliment to their coaching abilities. Let's be honest here. Tark wasn't exactly always on the up and up, and things have happened on Calipari's watch that make you wonder if he had any interest in anything that ever occurred outside his 94' x 50' office. The only way Tark or Calipari is going to get into the Scruples Hall of Fame is with a full-price admission ticket.

Oh, and those who think Skip Prosser might return to Cincinnai, this Wake fan sez: "don't hold your breath".

(Tho for about 72 hours after the meltdown in March, I'd have gladly helped Skip load up the moving truck if he wanted to leave Winston-Salem.)

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 03:14 PM
August 24, 2005 -- Bob Huggins is fired (basically) by UC

August 24, 1989 -- Pete Rose banned for life from baseball.



How screwed up is that?????!?!?!!

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2005, 03:25 PM
Heres a good article from CBS Sportsline on this situation.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/8768009


Cincinnati president not living in real -- basketball -- world
Aug. 24, 2005
By Gregg Doyel
CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer

In Nancy Zimpher's vision, the Cincinnati basketball program is a place where the team competes for a Big East championship, the coach recruits future pediatricians and the players split their time between the court, the library and their volunteer job at the Humane Society.

And you thought a university president was the smartest person on campus.

While Nancy Zimpher works to lift Cincinnati's academic profile, she is ruining the hoops program.
Zimpher is the Cincinnati president who has pushed out Bob Huggins after 16 years, his tenure marked by 14 NCAA Tournament appearances, unflattering off-court incidents and inaccurate attacks on his program's graduation rate.

Zimpher, who came to Cincinnati in 2003 from Wisconsin-Milwaukee, has a vision for her new school: UC 21. It calls for sweeping academic reform and an overall lifting of the school's standards, and image, to new levels. It's a wonderful plan -- no, really -- but it doesn't jibe with the reality of big-time college basketball.

Memo to Zimpher: You have a big-time college basketball program.

Or had.

Give Zimpher credit for wanting the very best for her school, from the English department to the admissions standards to the backup power forward on the basketball team. But deduct points for Zimpher's miscalculation of the atmosphere of college basketball.

Cincinnati is about to enter the Big East, which has been lorded over in recent years by Connecticut and Syracuse.

That's the same Connecticut, by the way, that kicked off Antonio Kellogg this spring after a series of ugly off-court issues. And it's the same Connecticut that currently has no idea whether either of its top two point guards, Marcus Williams or A.J. Price, will play this season after they were named in felony larceny charges involving laptop computers allegedly stolen from members of the UConn women's basketball program.

And that's the same Syracuse, it should be noted, expected to get a verbal commitment Friday from Paul Harris, one of the best NBA prospects in the class of 2006 and a young man who has faced drug charges in the past. Syracuse will give Harris this chance because he made his mistakes as a much younger kid, because he comes across as a likeable, nice guy -- and because he can dunk basketballs like donuts.

Please, UConn and Syracuse fans, don't be angry. This isn't an indictment of Jim Calhoun or Jim Boeheim, or an indictment of the Huskies or the Orange. It's not even an indictment of college basketball. It's just a statement of the facts.

A recent national champion, months after winning that title, had on its roster a center who was kicked off his high school team after being investigated for sexual assault. That team also had a shooting guard who would be investigated for marijuana possession, a point guard cited for underage drinking, a backup point guard who confronted an opposing coach during a game and a backup center accused of beating up his girlfriend. Plus it had (gasp) a transfer from another school.

The national champion in question? Duke, 2001.

It's not an indictment of Duke, either. American life has changed, and college basketball has changed with it. Players come with baggage. Coaches try to unpack the dirty drawers and replace them with clean, bleached briefs. Sometimes it works. It has worked more often than not at Cincinnati under Huggins.

Nancy Zimpher doesn't understand right now, but she will. She's at Cincinnati, not Columbia. Her basketball program isn't competing with Brown, but with the Syracuse Orange.

Zimpher's ambition and righteousness are impressive, but let's make no mistake about this one point: Bob Huggins isn't gone because he failed to live up to the standards of college basketball. Huggins is gone because he met those standards.

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 03:37 PM
2 sides agree to terminate Huggins contract.

It is over....

westofyou
08-24-2005, 03:38 PM
August 24, 2005 -- Bob Huggins is fired (basically) by UC

August 24, 1989 -- Pete Rose banned for life from baseball.



How screwed up is that?????!?!?!!

And Steve Guttenburg was born on 8-24-1958...... the horror.

Chip R
08-24-2005, 03:38 PM
(Tho for about 72 hours after the meltdown in March, I'd have gladly helped Skip load up the moving truck if he wanted to leave Winston-Salem.)
Why is that? Did some of his players get arrested or have bad GPAs? Did Skip get a DUI? Too many JUCO players on the team?

Jeremy Piergallini
08-24-2005, 03:40 PM
Matt,
Replacement? Kennedy?

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 03:49 PM
Matt,
Replacement? Kennedy?

Don't know yet....I would guess they would make him interim coach

Jeremy Piergallini
08-24-2005, 03:52 PM
Mick Cronin? Skip Prosser? Dude from UAB?

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2005, 03:57 PM
Here's the official word. No news on a replacement yet.


Huggins agrees to resign, takes school's severance package
Aug. 24, 2005
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports

CINCINNATI -- The lawyer for Bob Huggins says his client has agreed to step down as Cincinnati's men's basketball coach.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/08/24/huggins.html


Bob Huggins and the University of Cincinnati have reached a "mutual agreement to terminate" Huggins' contract.

That's according to Huggins' attorney, Richard Katz, who issued a very brief statement to the media at 3:35 p.m. Wednesday.

"It's a mutual agreement to terminate. We haven't resigned. We're not resigning the job. We're not being terminated without cause. We've agreed to terminate," Katz told reporters.

At this time, it's unknown what the exact terms are. It's also not known how much money Huggins will walk away with.

It appears the "mutual agreement to terminate" was an option separate from the three laid out Tuesday, which included resigning, termination without cause, or taking another job within UC outside of athletics.

More details are expected in a full news release within the next 24 hours, Katz indicated.

Katz and Huggins apparently revealed their decision to the university at 10:06 a.m. Wednesday. At noon, 9News reported that Huggins had made a decision and was planning to hold a press conference.

15fan
08-24-2005, 03:58 PM
Chip -

I can't believe you'd be so cruel as to make me re-live the misery.

This (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=254000013) is the pain of which I speak.

They say that time heals all wounds, but I don't know if I'll ever really get over the way Skip's boys finished the '04-'05 season. It wasn't supposed to end that way. There was waaaaay too much talent, depth, and experience to go out in the round of 32. :(

flyer85
08-24-2005, 04:06 PM
Today is my birthday. Maybe I am just a

http://www.dailyanxiety.com/archive/issue1/masters4.gif

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 04:13 PM
I'd like to see Mick Cronin replace Huggs. He knows the system, can recruit well and would be a good fit here. I'm sure he wouldn't meet Queen Nancy's standards though, his grade in Chem Lab 101 probably wasn't high enough.

Chip R
08-24-2005, 04:21 PM
Chip -

I can't believe you'd be so cruel as to make me re-live the misery.

This (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=254000013) is the pain of which I speak.

They say that time heals all wounds, but I don't know if I'll ever really get over the way Skip's boys finished the '04-'05 season. It wasn't supposed to end that way. There was waaaaay too much talent, depth, and experience to go out in the round of 32. :(

Not trying to be cruel, 15, but as long as his players are graduating and keeping out of trouble and Skip is being a good citizen he should keep his job, right? After all it's just an extra-curricular activity. Huggins was successful on the court but you're OK with him being fired because his kids got in trouble under his watch. Yet you expressed disappointment with Prosser when his team melted down in the NCAAs. If you hold every coach to your lofty standards, Prosser should be coach at Wake as long as everyone keeps their noses clean there.

TeamCasey
08-24-2005, 04:22 PM
Happy Birthday. :)

flyer85
08-24-2005, 04:24 PM
I'd like to see Mick Cronin replace Huggs. Seeing as Zimpher wanted Huggins gone, gone and gone, I think it is unlikely the next coach will have any ties to his regime.

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 04:31 PM
Seeing as Zimpher wanted Huggins gone, gone and gone, I think it is unlikely the next coach will have any ties to his regime.

I agree, but I can always hope. I think UC basketball as we know it just died, be prepared to become the doormats of the Big East. It will be ok though, cuz our point guard will get an A- in Biology.

:cry:

Caveat Emperor
08-24-2005, 04:32 PM
Well, now UC fans get the ultimate in enjoyable passtimes: the head coaching search.

All but guaranteed to leave everyone simultaneously unhappy. :angry:

CTA513
08-24-2005, 04:34 PM
Well, now UC fans get the ultimate in enjoyable passtimes: the head coaching search.

All but guaranteed to leave everyone simultaneously unhappy. :angry:

They will have a nice time trying to get good players to come to UC. :laugh:

flyer85
08-24-2005, 04:36 PM
Well, now UC fans get the ultimate in enjoyable passtimes: the head coaching search.

All but guaranteed to leave everyone simultaneously unhappy. :angry:while killing 2 recruiting classes at the same time, a wonderful parting gift.

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 04:43 PM
I wonder if Huggins could end up at Indiana? Mike Davis can't hang on much longer, and it's still close to Cincy.

Edit: Channel 12 news said Nancy wants incoming players to have a minimum ACT of 23. :laugh:

paintmered
08-24-2005, 05:38 PM
Edit: Channel 12 news said Nancy wants incoming players to have a minimum ACT of 23. :laugh:


It really doesn't suprise me.

*sigh :(

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 07:05 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=bilas_jay&id=2141790&num=2

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 07:52 PM
From CBS Sportsline


The university sent Katz a letter earlier in the day outlining the $3 million buyout. The letter, obtained through a Freedom of Information request, offered Huggins $110,000 per month for the next three months to stay on and ease the coaching transition.

"His duties will include providing information about the current team, identifying and commenting upon potential recruits, and documenting his institutional memory of the basketball program during his 16-year coaching tenure," the letter said.

They treat him like crap, and then ask him to help them out?

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 07:53 PM
From CBS Sportsline



They treat him like crap, and then ask him to help them out?

A lot of nerve they have. Huggins will do it though, because that's just the way he is when it comes to this program. Loyal.

Cedric
08-24-2005, 07:59 PM
Well I'm sure his severence is part of this. The sad thing is we won't here his side for awhile now.

Sham
08-24-2005, 08:05 PM
A note the UC folks who are fans of Huggins:

Outside of the tri-state, Bob Huggins has made your school the punch line to a lot of jokes.

This is an absolutely necessary move if the University wants to regain any shred of credibility with the rest of the country. It's a move that should have been made 5 or 10 years ago.

Ya know, it's not unlike Marge Schott and the Reds. Some of the local folks thought she was just a quirky old lady. Meanwhile, the rest of the country either rolled its eyes or chuckled when her name was mentioned. No one took her seriously.

Same thing with Huggins.

The basketball team is the face of the University to a lot of folks outside of the tri-state.

It's a face that has been covered with egg for an awfully long time.

Glad to see that someone is finally doing something about it.

Dead on.

Matt700wlw
08-24-2005, 08:08 PM
Nothing has been done about it.

If she doesn't bring in a coach to maintain it's success, it will be more of a laughingstock than some say it already is (which I disagree with).

If all the kids are little choir boy angels, who get straight A's and degrees in Economics, and the team isn't winning....nobody is going to care

savafan
08-24-2005, 08:11 PM
Nothing has been done about it.

If she doesn't bring in a coach to maintain it's success, it will be more of a laughingstock than some say it already is (which I disagree with).

If all the kids are little choir boy angels, who get straight A's and degrees in Economics, and the team isn't winning....nobody is going to care

and Nancy Zimpher will be at a different university preaching her mantra about higher standards

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 08:33 PM
Nothing has been done about it.

If she doesn't bring in a coach to maintain it's success, it will be more of a laughingstock than some say it already is (which I disagree with).

If all the kids are little choir boy angels, who get straight A's and degrees in Economics, and the team isn't winning....nobody is going to care

Bingo.

Nancy is so concerned about the image of the basketball team that it will be heading into the Big East full of Huggins recruits (you know, those kids who don't live up to her standards). The team will be lead by a coach from Bob Huggins staff, who is going to follow the exact same system his former boss did. Why would he do such a thing? Simple, because it works.

Make no mistake; this had nothing to do with the image of the basketball program or raising academic standards and everything to do with Bob Huggins. Nancy Zimpher is a hypocrite. She has been on a crusade to get rid of Bob ever since she stepped foot on campus. She is an egomaniacal elitist snob that is living in a dream world. I read the UC:21 plan that she loves to refer to; nowhere in that plan does it mention anything about restructuring any of the athletic programs. Are any of the other programs under review, or was mens basketball unfairly singled out? What has Nancy Zimpher accomplished in her reign as President? Not much from what I can see. She's fired the Deans of the most respect colleges at the University (Law, Medicine, Business, and Engineering) alienated the fans, students and alumni, cost the University millions of dollars in sponsorships and embarrassed the University in the national media with her disastrous handling of this situation.

What is Nancy going to do when they have start cutting other non-revenue producing sports that the basketball program paid for? I hate to inform her, but having a top notch English department isn't going to bring in a multi-million dollar TV contract for the school. Higher education, weather she likes it or not, is a business and businesses need money. I have no problem with her raising academic standards, but she doesn't need to destroy one of the top college basketball programs in the country in the process. She has sealed her fate in this town, she won’t be able to walk down the street, eat in a restaurant or go to a movie theater without hearing from the fans. I’ve lived in Cincinnati my entire life, people in this city have a long memory, and they won’t be forgetting this anytime soon. If she thinks this ended today, she’s sorely mistaken.

Cedric
08-24-2005, 08:38 PM
Awesome and dead on.

TeamBoone
08-24-2005, 09:22 PM
Excellent post.

Just wanted to add a note. UC's music college (CCM) is ranked in the top five... one of the most respected in the country.

Cyclone792
08-24-2005, 10:24 PM
Nancy Zimpher is a hypocrite. She has been on a crusade to get rid of Bob ever since she stepped foot on campus. She is an egomaniacal elitist snob that is living in a dream world.

That is the best short summary about her that I've seen, and is 100 percent spot on.

I just graduated from UC this past school year, and my perception is the students have never liked Zimpher, even well before the Huggins DUI situation. She just seemed to ride on into Cincinnati on her stuck up high horse, and the student base was taken aback. She's insulted students, alumni and professors alike ever since she's arrived, and that's difficult to accomplish.

For the people outside the region who have only seen the negative press surrounding the basketball program and its "thug" reputation, consider this: One of the things that used to be key for UC was the fact that it was a local, affordable university that was primarily a commuter school for the bulk of its student base, some of whom grew up locally in the Cincy region and A) couldn't afford to go out of state or B) couldn't afford to stay close to home and attend Miami (OH), which I believe requires incoming frosh to live on campus in resident halls. Zimpher is destroying that now and essentially implying that a specific percentage of its student population is no longer welcome at UC.

When I started going to UC in the 2000-2001 school year, in-state tuition was approximately $5,200 per year. This past school year for 2004-2005, tuition was up to about $8,400 per year. I don't know what the tuition is for 2005-2006 - it may have increased again - but rumors are swirling that even more increases are riding alongside Camp Nancy's high horse.

Her dream of turning Clifton into Oxford simply is not plausible, period, but she's obviously hellbent on trying and failing.

Reds4Life
08-24-2005, 11:15 PM
They had an interview with Skip Prosser and he said he was shocked and saddened. He was asked about the rumors he could be a top contender for the job and he said it was ridiculous and that "Bob is a friend, I would never do that".

Also had an interview with Rick Pitino. He more or less said if Nancy doesn't step up and hire a big fish that can keep the program at same level Huggins did, and someone "popular with the community" as he put it, that she'll probably be packing her bags soon. He mentioned what happened to Myles Brandt after he fired Bob Knight.

RFS62
08-24-2005, 11:28 PM
Ya know, I don't have any ties to UC other than friends who went there, but I have a very strong feeling that Nancy is going to feel real small very soon.

Followed by feeling smaller and smaller, until she disappears completely.

WVRed
08-24-2005, 11:35 PM
He mentioned what happened to Myles Brandt after he fired Bob Knight.

The NCAA rewarded Myles Brand as president of the NCAA , I dont see the same thing happening here with Ms Zimpher.

cincinnati chili
08-24-2005, 11:42 PM
And since Bobby Knight left Indiana, the school is teetering on the verge of insolvency and no high school senior wants to go there.

Yup, that Myles Brand really screwed up.

WVRed
08-24-2005, 11:45 PM
And since Bobby Knight left Indiana, the school is teetering on the verge of insolvency and no high school senior wants to go there.

Yup, that Myles Brand really screwed up.

I wasnt alluding to what he did with Indiana, just that IMO, the NCAA rewarded him for how he handled the Knight situation. I think the NCAA wanted him gone, but maybe thats the conspiracy theorist in me.:)

CrackerJack
08-24-2005, 11:46 PM
They had an interview with Skip Prosser and he said he was shocked and saddened. He was asked about the rumors he could be a top contender for the job and he said it was ridiculous and that "Bob is a friend, I would never do that".

Also had an interview with Rick Pitino. He more or less said if Nancy doesn't step up and hire a big fish that can keep the program at same level Huggins did, and someone "popular with the community" as he put it, that she'll probably be packing her bags soon. He mentioned what happened to Myles Brandt after he fired Bob Knight.


I agree with Pitino, she'll have a short life here if she doesn't replace him with someone equally as capable. I don't mind the direction she's taking at all, I am one of the few UC fans who appreciates tremendously what Huggins has done, but don't really care much that he's gone, his teams have become woefully predictable and the individualistic NBA style of play he promoted didn't appeal to me. And the constant legal problems, suspensions and NCAA torunament under-achieving despite super high seeds has become intolerable to me.

I also get tired of the whining to the extent that's going on, as she gave the guy a nice buyout package and set him up for life, not that he wasn't already. $3 million is nothing to sneeze at folks, that's a lot of money in 3 years for someone who isn't working for you anymore.

I just hope she replaces him with someone capable, or this will be an incredibly stupid move at that point, just stupid.

TeamBoone
08-25-2005, 12:37 AM
Sometimes money isn't everything, CJ.

Chip R
08-25-2005, 09:10 AM
I don't mind the direction she's taking at all, I am one of the few UC fans who appreciates tremendously what Huggins has done, but don't really care much that he's gone, his teams have become woefully predictable and the individualistic NBA style of play he promoted didn't appeal to me. And the constant legal problems, suspensions and NCAA torunament under-achieving despite super high seeds has become intolerable to me.
And that's great if she sticks with her philosophy. If she's consistent across the board with these higher academic standards and holding coaches accountable for their personal behavior and the behavior of their athletes, it's a wonderful thing - as long as she's consistent. What's going to happen when a football player gets in trouble? If Dantonio isn't fired then she's opening herself up to the suspicions that all this was was a vendetta against Huggins and/or the basketball program.

If she wants to make UC a bastion of academia, that's wonderful. But it reminds me of what happened at the University of Iowa about 15-20 years ago. I think this was after the Walters/Bloom scandal where many college players took money from these agents before their eligibility was up. A newspaper did a little digging and found out several athletes at Iowa weren't exactly on the fast track for graduation. The classes they took and the grades they got were pretty embarrassing. Anyway the president at Iowa came out one day and said that he wanted to make incoming freshmen at Iowa ineligible for athletics. Nothing ever came of it but could you imagine what would happen if a school in a major conference made their freshmen ineligible while every other school didn't? This sounds a lot like what Zimpher is doing. Raising the bar for these athletes while other institutions not only in their conference but in the area aren't doing the same.

15fan
08-25-2005, 09:14 AM
TB - "Sometimes money isn't everything, CJ."

I agree. But let's be honest here. Huggins is getting more in severance than most folks earn in an entire lifetime. Bob could take his $3 million buyout, invest it in some rather conservative financial instruments, and have an annual income well over 6 figures for the rest of his life without ever touching the principle. ie, a 5% annual return gives him $150k per year. An 8.3% annual return, and he's looking at a quarter of a million dollars per year.

If that's being treated like crap, then I want to do whatever it takes to get to the front of the line so that someone can defecate all over me.

Chip - "Not trying to be cruel, 15, but as long as his players are graduating and keeping out of trouble and Skip is being a good citizen he should keep his job, right? After all it's just an extra-curricular activity. Huggins was successful on the court but you're OK with him being fired because his kids got in trouble under his watch. Yet you expressed disappointment with Prosser when his team melted down in the NCAAs. If you hold every coach to your lofty standards, Prosser should be coach at Wake as long as everyone keeps their noses clean there."

I really do hope that Skip stays on at Wake as long as (1) his kids are going to class, (2) the coaches and players are staying out of trouble, and (3) his teams are playing competitive ball. Those aren't mutually exclusive actions and those are my requirements for any coach of any non-professional sports team. Plenty of coaches out there do it on an annual basis and they do it with far less resources than are available to the men's basketball program at UC.

The 72 hours I mentioned earlier was the knee-jerk reaction to a horribly disappointing loss in the NCAAs. After the sting of the defeat, it was back to business as usual. Skip and his guys have a pretty solid track record for doing things the right way both on and off the court. The folks associated with UC should aspire to the same set of standards. The school has a lot to offer, and all of the hand-wringing that UC hoops is never going be any good ever again is small-minded thinking.

Maybe, just maybe, UC hoops can be even better than it was under Huggins' watch.

Sham
08-25-2005, 10:39 AM
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3324331

Reds4Life
08-25-2005, 10:45 AM
There is a Q&A in today’s Enquirer with Nancy, you should read some of her answers, it shows how incredibly arrogant this woman truly is.

TeamCasey
08-25-2005, 10:48 AM
I don't blame Huggins for taking it. It's not so much the 2 vs. 3 million, but the reduction in retirement benefits.

savafan
08-25-2005, 11:06 AM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050825/SPT0101/508250397/1078



UC president Nancy Zimpher spent an hour with The Enquirer on Wednesday, in a wide-ranging interview that touched on backlash and personal attacks, strategic plans and future goals. Here are highlights of that interview with reporter Lori Kurtzman, edited for space and clarity.

Question: Is the Huggins decision the most difficult you've had to make?

Answer: I have had a lot of tough decisions since coming to the University of Cincinnati. I wanted a bigger, more complex institution with a large medical program, a robust athletic program, all the complement of colleges and departments that come with a full-service comprehensive research institution. And I got it.

All of the decisions along the way have been challenging and difficult. This is just more interesting to some constituencies. I think you'd say this is the most public decision.

Q: Are you offended by the personal attacks on you by some Bearcat fans, alumni and talk-radio hosts?

A: I'm a public figure - not a big one - I'm just in a public place. And people are going to say things. I think my role is to rise above that.

I'd be inhuman if you said this stuff just rolls off my back. I'm a person. I'm a human being, trying to do the right thing in a very public environment. And I am concerned a lot about understanding our fan base and building bridges and winning back lost fans if there turns out to be some. But I don't have time to get personally offended. I have a huge, hard, persistent job, and I actually enjoy it. Most days I think it is an incredible lot of fun.

Q: Will you try to rebuild relationships with Bearcat fans you've upset?

A: There will be some people who will hold such a strong opinion that they'll do something terminal to their relationship with the university. But I am a salesperson for this university, so we will do all in our power to win them back. Time will tell.

Q: What did you think of the hostile tone of Tuesday's press conference?

A: I expected a full house of inquiring minds, and by golly, that's what we got. I really wasn't surprised, and I don't consider this a personal matter. It's a public university, and guess what comes with that: public scrutiny.

Q: Will it be an embarrassment if UC's teams perform poorly in the Big East Conference?

A: The Big East is going to be a struggle. It is an awesome, awesome league. We're going to do the very best we can, and there might be some surprises there. I think a challenge is motivating. We're not going to embarrass ourselves. I will tell you that.

Q: One of the criticisms of your academic plan is that it's elitist and aims to turn UC into something it's not. How do you respond?

A: I don't think anything could be further from the truth in terms of our goals for this institution. We are a public university. By virtue of our designation as an urban university, we thought it shouted that we are committed to the community. Our plan was to be one of the rare institutions in this country that could raise the bar on admissions while continuing to give opportunity and access to students who had not had the preparation they needed to go to college. So I reject that criticism.

Q: You say you're trying to increase the equity of a UC degree. Is that a knock on people who've graduated from UC in the past?

A: Actually, it's just the opposite. I've been with a number of alums, and it was those alums who propelled my own thinking about our need to be the best we really can be, because these people want to be proud of their degree. The university ought to keep moving in a forward direction. That's what our alums want.

Q: Some have said you are just using UC as a stepping stone to your next job. How do you respond?

A: They don't know how old I am. Are they aware that I'm in my late 50s? (Zimpher is 58.)

These are really tough jobs. The first two years, you just hardly look up. When I was hired, I think it was generally agreed to by our board that you've got to make a five-year commitment and more. I can't imagine a president going into a position of this complexity and not making that kind of personal commitment in their mind.

Q: Were you prepared for the strong backlash?

A: I don't think in any situation you can necessarily gauge or predict the response. We knew that we had a highly visible athletic program, particularly in men's basketball. We got a lot of visibility out of this, and we're trying to turn what may be a negative perception into a positive perception, so I don't think we're at all surprised at how many different constituencies are interested in us. We ought to be able to use that to the institution's benefit.

Q: Do you get any satisfaction taking on Bob Huggins?

A: I'm going to try to answer the best I can a question that's pretty loaded. I don't start there at all. I start with the university and its public purpose and the leadership role I have assumed. The edict I have from the Board of Trustees is to plan this university into a better institution. Along the way, it requires some tough decisions.

I do enjoy the challenge. I don't enjoy conflict. But conflict is a part of what the job is.

MWM
08-25-2005, 11:32 AM
I've seen several college basketball personalities now talk about how misunderstood Bob Huggins was based on how he was prtrayed in the media. Rick PItino, Dick Vitale, Jay Bilas, and a couple of others. I thought this was a decent take by Bilas:


Even now, anytime I go to Indiana or watch the Hoosiers play, the image of Bob Knight pops into my head. My sense is that will always be the case for a person of my generation.

Similarly, when I visit the Shoe or watch Cincinnati play, I will always think of Bob Huggins.

Huggins' fate as Cincinnati's basketball coach may well have been sealed upon the hiring of Nancy Zimpher as UC's new president two years ago. While every coach serves at the pleasure of his or her president, it was clear that Zimpher had a certain perception of the Bearcat basketball program -- and did not like it one bit.

In the past year, she has made it clear she would allow Huggins to coach to the end of his contract, but no further. That led to consistent talk out of Cincinnati that it was even money whether that would come before the end of his contract.

Zimpher's stance on denying Huggins additional rollover years on his deal pretty much meant he could not recruit effectively, which would cause the program to suffer badly in future years. Huggins knew that and told Cincinnati that such a situation was not right for either party, especially the program he built, and that a decision had to be made.

Zimpher chose to end the relationship now.

While it is her prerogative to move in another direction, I respectfully disagree with her position. I know Bob Huggins and I have always felt that perceptions of him in the media and the public are inaccurate. It is easy to accept his gruff demeanor before the press as who he is, and judge his program and his players on the black uniforms and black shoes, but Huggins is a good guy.

Clearly, he has made mistakes, most notably his DUI arrest just over a year ago, but his mistakes have been blown out of proportion. Huggins is, without reasonable debate, one of the elite coaches in America. He is a winner, plain and simple, and set a standard of excellence and a standard of blue-collar hard work that no other coach in Conference USA could touch.

The biggest complaint people had about Huggins' program was that he "never graduated his players." That perception doesn't match up to reality. While you can twist the figures any way you like, Huggins indeed has graduated a good number of his players, including 11 of his last 17. Some have gone on to play professional basketball and others have graduated in more than five years -- so they don't count on the NCAA rolls.

On its way into the Big East, Cincinnati is reportedly relying upon Huggins' assistant, Andy Kennedy, to lead the way as interim coach. As of Wednesday morning, Kennedy hasn't had discussions with the school about taking over for Huggins, but Kennedy is a good choice right now.

Hiring an interim coach who knows the players and has their trust is only fair to the four seniors and six incoming players. If the Bearcats were to go outside of the current staff, the heart of the team could go and leave Cincinnati in the Big Eash lurch.

Kennedy is an outstanding young coaching prospect who knows the game, knows how to recruit. However, he is walking into a really difficult situation. Cincinnati will pull back whatever power Huggins had and Kennedy will be asked to meet the same standards of success without the same resources. He will be graded on every move he makes and the "Job-O-Meter" will be out on each substitution or time-out.

My position on this is clear. If Kennedy wins, it does not automatically mean he is the right guy for the future. If he does not win, it does not mean he isn't the right guy to guide the program. Cincinnati needs to get the right person in place for the future of the program.

Huggins needs to work out some details with Cincinnati, including the timing and distribution of payment and his health benefits (after all, Huggins has had a heart attack and has a family to think about), but I believe he will coach again. Huggins is a coach, first and foremost, and he will get that hunger to roam the sidelines again.

In Huggins' absence, Bearcat basketball can be excellent again in the future -- but without Bob Huggins, Cincinnati basketball will never be the same.

CTA513
08-25-2005, 11:36 AM
I just wanted to announce that Im the new coach of the Bearcats.
Ive never coached or even played basketball before... Dont worry Bearcat fans, I will make sure we win atleast 1 game this year!

:cool:

15fan
08-25-2005, 12:04 PM
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3324331

:clap:

flyer85
08-25-2005, 12:04 PM
I wonder how many of the 2005 recruits will ask for a release?

I wonder if any of them will get one?

flyer85
08-25-2005, 12:12 PM
From my view the whole episode is farily simple.

- Bob was hired to win basketball games
- For the first 14 or so years whatever players were brought in and academic corners cut were done with the tacit approval of the administration
- 2 years ago UC got new management and Bob got a new boss who didn't like his way of doing business
- It was clear from the beginning that this relationship was not going to work because this boss had a completly different set of expectations for athletics
- This was the only way it could end - someone being fired

The only real issue is that the timing was bad and this should have been done a long time ago.

Eerily similar to the end of BK at IU. New administration, different expectations and a coach who was not going to survive the power struggle.

This isn't really even about Bob and Nancy as it is getting a boss whose expectations about how you should perform your job are at odds with you view it. Divorce is inevitable.

Cedric
08-25-2005, 12:17 PM
This is from a national sportswriter. And it explains EVERYTHING from my point of view.

A little confession

If you're tired of blaming Cincinnati president Nancy Zimpher and
would like to blame someone else for Bob Huggins' dismissal, blame me.

Blame me and lots of almost-informed sports writers like me, sports
writers who knew the basic outline of a handful of facts and used that
outline to paint ugly pictures of Huggins and his basketball program
at Cincinnati.

For years that was me, back when I was based in Raleigh, N.C., and
covering the ACC from 1997-2003 for the Charlotte Observer and then
covering national college hoops for CBS SportsLine.com.

From afar, Huggins is easy to despise. He really is. The graduation
rates, the police reports, the DUI. It all adds up.

It's only when you get closer and really look -- look past this
headline from 1999, or that one from 1996 -- that you realize that,
while Huggins' program has been no model of perfection, it hasn't been
all that different from others in the Top 25.

In recent days intelligent and talented sports writers have celebrated
Cincinnati's toughness while throwing dirt on Huggins, using the same
half-truths and easy assumptions I once used from afar. I'm not so
much embarrassed for them as I'm embarrassed for me, for contributing
to the anti-Huggins mob in recent years.

There are coaches in this business -- big, big, big coaches -- who are
easy to like from afar ... but become far less palatable with
proximity.

Bob Huggins? He's the opposite. That's his fault, yes, but he's not
the only one to blame.



( I think a lot of fans like liars, they like fake people. Coach K is fake to me. I've heard so much bad about him, but what is his reputation? It's perfect. It's all how you are portrayed by the media and one big mistake.

flyer85
08-25-2005, 12:56 PM
An interesting read

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/050825


By Jason Whitlock
Special to Page 2

Nancy Zimpher, president of the University of Cincinnati, will be hailed in some circles and assailed in others for the bold stance she took with her basketball program.

She basically fired Bob Huggins for recruiting too many poor, academically and socially underprepared black kids. She called off the whole, tired charade.

I offer her praise. I respect her honesty.

She's uninterested in playing statistical games about who did and who didn't graduate. She's unimpressed with Huggins' charitable activities in and around Cincinnati. She apparently doesn't believe Huggins has a legitimate interest in helping the underclass.

With the Bearcats safely tucked in the money-generating Big East, Zimpher wants to fix the nasty perception that Cincinnati is a halfway house for lawless, difficult-to-educate black basketball players. Getting rid of Huggins is the first step in that process.

Yes, the saga continues. Another institution used poor blacks for its benefit, disrespected them in writing and then kicked them to the curb. Some will blast Zimpher and UC for its callousness. I won't. Again, I offer her praise. I respect her honesty. What must be questioned is the sanity of the black community that continues to allow its youth to be used by institutions that don't respect them.

I spent the better part of two hours perusing the letters that flew between Huggins' attorney and UC's legal counsel this summer. Zimpher's message was concise and clear.

"Mr. Huggins continues to recruit individuals that exhibit a disregard for the law and respectful behavior," one of the university's letters read. "I fully understand that off-the-court trouble and the poor choices made by student-athletes are not restricted to UC's basketball team. Indeed, such discipline and control issues are a national problem. Yet problems appear to be more prevalent in Mr. Huggins' basketball program."

The letter went on to state that in a 16-year span, 21 of Huggins' players had run afoul of the law in a significant way, including three players/recruits who were scheduled to play at UC this season.

"In short," the letter continued, "although Mr. Huggins may claim some specific successes, the University is seeking an environment and climate where the development of the whole student is sought and the successful education of all our students is realized. And while some may argue that academically challenged individuals who experience difficulty conforming their behavior to appropriate norms deserve a chance at success that a winning college basketball team can provide, UC believes that it can better advance its mission by building a winning program around scholar athletes who earn degrees that will allow them to succeed not only in athletics but more importantly in life generally."

Now we can play games and pretend like we don't know what Zimpher and Cincinnati are saying. But we know what she's saying. We know the type of players Huggins used to resurrect the UC basketball program and garner personal fortune and fame. He raided junior colleges for poor black players, snagged an occasional transfer and patched them around other players from the other side of the tracks.

Those players served their purpose for Huggins. They elevated UC to a level where it would be worthy of joining a major conference, and now Zimpher and UC are ready to wash their hands of Huggins and his image-eroding junior-college players.

Yes, the saga continues. Another institution used poor blacks for its benefit, disrespected them in writing and then kicked them to the curb.

Some will blast Zimpher and UC for its callousness. I won't.

Again, I offer her praise. I respect her honesty.

What must be questioned is the sanity of the black community that continues to allow its youth to be used by institutions that don't respect them.

The University of Cincinnati basically just said that, for 16 years, Bob Huggins had little interest in educating the black athletes he recruited. That's not a secret nor is it much of a surprise. It's probably even unfair to blame Huggins.

The blame falls on the players, their families and the black culture that gleefully participates in and condones this exploitation because a handful of black kids sign NBA contracts.

Cincinnati, just like every other mainstream academic institution, has virtually no interest in properly educating the black underclass. It's not the mission of a mainstream institution. UC, Duke, Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio State, USC, Notre Dame and all the rest are set up to educate upper- and middle-class kids.

"Academically challenged individuals who experience difficulty conforming their behavior to appropriate norms" are not wanted at Cincinnati or at Boston College, Nebraska, Texas Tech …

And you know what? It's not in the best interest of those academically challenged individuals to go to Cincinnati. When you go someplace where you're not wanted, you get treated like you're not wanted. You get used. You get used by the well-intentioned basketball coach, the well-intentioned school president, the well-intentioned student body and the well-intentioned professors.

Black athletes participating in Division I sports graduate at an alarmingly low rate because the people running the institutions don't view the athletes as capable of being truly educated, and the institutions are ill-equipped to educate the black underclass.

Again, I want to thank Nancy Zimpher for her honesty and integrity. Maybe one day poor black athletes and their parents will study their history and realize that countless black leaders and professional athletes were educated and groomed at historically black colleges. There's absolutely nothing second-rate about the education, and black students are seven times more likely to graduate at a historically black college than at a mainstream institution.

Roy Tucker
08-25-2005, 01:08 PM
Whoa.

savafan
08-25-2005, 01:37 PM
An interesting read

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/050825


That article was interesting, and made a lot of sense.

Reds4Life
08-25-2005, 01:40 PM
How about this. Nancy wants a coach who graduates players, who's a proven winner, who can take this program to the next level...............................Bob Knight.

How's that for an odd couple!

REDREAD
08-25-2005, 02:36 PM
The Big East is going to be a struggle. It is an awesome, awesome league. We're going to do the very best we can, and there might be some surprises there. I think a challenge is motivating. We're not going to embarrass ourselves. I will tell you that.


Translation: "We're not throwing in the towel" (one of John Allen's memorable quotes).

Cedric
08-25-2005, 02:41 PM
Phil Cox wants UC to be like Duke. That's not gonna happen. But even if it does is that good? I got this from bearcatnews.com

"A recent national champion, months after winning that title, had on its
roster a center who was kicked off his high school team after being
investigated for sexual assault. That team also had a shooting guard who
would be investigated for marijuana possession, a point guard cited for
underage drinking, a backup point guard who confronted an opposing coach
during a game and a backup center accused of beating up his girlfriend. Plus
it had (gasp) a transfer from another school. "
Duke 2001 is the team in question.