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RBA
08-30-2005, 06:18 PM
Interesting idea, but would they be too big for New Orleans. I mean wouldn't people need to be shipped out to them and the problem remains?

Yeah, they would have to be barged out to the ships where they would have some place to stay which isn't below standards.

ochre
08-30-2005, 06:24 PM
Not endorsing looting here, but what the hell are the police doing even bothering with arresting looters? Where are they going to put them? All of their efforts should be directed at saving lives where possible, not protecting soon to be ruined stocks of consumer goods.

registerthis
08-30-2005, 06:40 PM
Not endorsing looting here, but what the hell are the police doing even bothering with arresting looters? Where are they going to put them? All of their efforts should be directed at saving lives where possible, not protecting soon to be ruined stocks of consumer goods.Agreed.

Wow, what a sad, desperate situation.

It's going to take New orleans YEARS to recover from this...if there is a positive to be found, I suppose it is that you are likely to see better levees and a better pump system installed, to prevent a replication of this. The hurrican was bad, but surviveable. It's the failing of the levee system that is destroying this city right now.

Thoughts and prayers to all of those in the gulf tonight. :(

Caveat Emperor
08-30-2005, 06:41 PM
Not endorsing looting here, but what the hell are the police doing even bothering with arresting looters? Where are they going to put them? All of their efforts should be directed at saving lives where possible, not protecting soon to be ruined stocks of consumer goods.

It's one of those things where, in order maintain some semblence of law and order, there has to be enforcement of basic rights...if the police aren't maintaining order, then it turns into an "every man for himself" sitaution that is just counterproductive in a disaster situation.

Having said that, I think there's a germ of truth to the Catholic notion that "the universal destination of goods remains primordial," meaning that those with great need and in desperate situations have the greatest right to things needed to keep them alive. By this notion, a starving man should have every right to smash a store window and take a loaf of bread to keep himself alive.

I very much doubt police are going to arrest anyone who has hauling off water and food for themselves to wait off this storm.



It's going to take New orleans YEARS to recover from this...if there is a positive to be found, I suppose it is that you are likely to see better levees and a better pump system installed, to prevent a replication of this. The hurrican was bad, but surviveable. It's the failing of the levee system that is destroying this city right now.

Another sliver of positive that can come out of this is that it gives the city of New Orleans an opportunity to modernize during the rebuilding process. A city that has been totally dependant on tourism and the last remnants of the oil industry can make itself more attractive for new types of business and industry.

They're being given an opportunity, to a certain extent, to start over once again...and with some vision, the city can come out of this terrible tragedy much stronger and ready to compete as a major southern metropolis once again.

New Orleans will survive, though. It always has, through Fire, Flood and Civil War.

rdiersin
08-30-2005, 06:51 PM
It's the failing of the levee system that is destroying this city right now.


Its the levee system that is part of the problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/national/30coast.html


August 30, 2005
After Centuries of 'Controlling' Land, Gulf Learns Who's the Boss
By CORNELIA DEAN
and ANDREW C. REVKIN
The Gulf Coast has always been vulnerable to coastal storms, but over the years people have made things worse, particularly in Louisiana, where Hurricane Katrina struck yesterday. Since the 18th century, when French colonial administrators required land claimants to establish ownership by building levees along bayous, streams and rivers, people have been trying to dominate the region's landscape and the forces of its nature.

As long as people could control floods, they could do business. But, as people learned too late, the landscape of South Louisiana depends on floods: it is made of loose Mississippi River silt, and the ground subsides as this silt consolidates. Only regular floods of muddy water can replenish the sediment and keep the landscape above water. But flood control projects channel the river's nourishing sediment to the end of the birdfoot delta and out into the deep water of the Gulf of Mexico.

Although early travelers realized the irrationality of building a port on shifting mud in an area regularly ravaged by storms and disease, the opportunities to make money overrode all objections.

When most transport was by water, people would of course settle along the Mississippi River, and of course they would build a port city near its mouth. In the 20th century, when oil and gas fields were developed in the gulf, of course people added petrochemical refineries and factories to the river mix, convenient to both drillers and shippers. To protect it all, they built an elaborate system of levees, dams, spillways and other installations.

As one 19th-century traveler put it, according to Ari Kelman, an environmental historian at the University of California, Davis, "New Orleans is surprising evidence of what men will endure, when cheered by the hopes of an ever-flowing tide of dollars and cents."

In the last few decades, more and more people have realized what a terrible bargain the region made when it embraced - unwittingly, perhaps - environmental degradation in exchange for economic gains.

Abby Sallenger, a scientist with the United States Geological Survey who has studied the Louisiana landscape for years, sees the results of this bargain when he makes his regular flights over the Gulf Coast or goes by boat to one of the string of sandy barrier islands that line the state's coast.

The islands are the region's first line of defense against hurricane waves and storm surges. Marshes, which can normally absorb storm water, are its second.

But, starved of sediment, the islands have shrunk significantly in recent decades. And though the rate of the marshes' loss has slowed somewhat, they are still disappearing, "almost changing before your eyes," as Dr. Sallenger put it in a telephone interview from his office in St. Petersburg, Fla. "Grassland turns into open water, ponds turn into lakes."

Without the fine sediment that nourishes marshes and the coarser sediment that feeds eroding barrier islands, "the entire delta region is sinking," he said. In effect, he said, it is suffering a rise in sea level of about a centimeter - about a third of an inch - a year, 10 times the average rate globally.

"Some of the future projections of sea level rise elsewhere in the country due to global warming would approach what we presently see in Louisiana," Dr. Sallenger said.

Hurricane Katrina was a strong storm, Category 4, when it came ashore east of New Orleans, near a string of barriers called the Chandeleur Islands. "They were already vulnerable, extremely so," Dr. Sallenger said.

He said he and his colleagues were reviewing photos, radar images and other measurements made of the islands after Hurricane Lili, a Category 2 hurricane that passed over them in 2002.

"The degree of change in that storm was extreme," he said. "So we had a discussion this morning: O.K., if Lili can do this, who knows what Katrina is going to do?" The scientists expect to fly over the coast on Wednesday and find out.

Of course, New Orleans is vulnerable to flooding from the Mississippi River as well as from coastal storms. North of the city, the Army Corps of Engineers has marked out several places where the levees would be deliberately breached in the event of a potentially disastrous river flood threat, sending water instead into uninhabited "spillways."

But there is no way to stop a hurricane storm surge from thundering over a degraded landscape - except, perhaps, by restoring the landscape to let the Mississippi flow over it more often.

Some small efforts are being made. For example, at the Old River Control Structure, an installation of dams, turbines and other facilities just north of Baton Rouge that keeps the Mississippi on its established path, workers collect sediment that piles along the dams and cart it by truck into the marshes.

But truly letting the river run would exact unacceptably heavy costs - costs that would be paid immediately by people in the region and in particular by any politician rash enough to endorse such a plan.

Instead, there continue to be efforts to build more capacity into New Orleans flood control efforts, said Craig E. Colten, a geographer at Louisiana State University and the author of a new book, "An Unnatural Metropolis: Wresting New Orleans From Nature" (Louisiana State University Press, 2005). That will mean ever more costs, Mr. Colten said, given that the city, which is below sea level, must run pumps simply to keep from being flooded in an ordinary rainstorm.

Roy K. Dokka, a geologist at Louisiana State, said flooding would be even worse for decades to come, not just in New Orleans but in the entire Gulf Coast region.

The consequences were clear yesterday, Dr. Dokka said, around Port Fourchon, La., where the single road that is the commuting route for oil workers heading to offshore rigs lay under water. "That road that all the roughnecks and oil workers drive down every day has sunk a foot in 20 years," he said. "It's now under water every time there's a significant south wind blowing."

But as Dr. Kelman said: "Once you've invested enough in urban infrastructure, you have to keep on buying in. And that doesn't even count the cultural dimension." The reference was to the region's cuisine, culture and mystique.

"With billions of dollars sunk into the soil in southern Louisiana and the Gulf Coast," Dr. Kelman said, "it's kind of too late. We're there, and we're staying there."

Puffy
08-30-2005, 06:55 PM
It's one of those things where, in order maintain some semblence of law and order, there has to be enforcement of basic rights...if the police aren't maintaining order, then it turns into an "every man for himself" sitaution that is just counterproductive in a disaster situation.

Having said that, I think there's a germ of truth to the Catholic notion that "the universal destination of goods remains primordial," meaning that those with great need and in desperate situations have the greatest right to things needed to keep them alive. By this notion, a starving man should have every right to smash a store window and take a loaf of bread to keep himself alive.

I very much doubt police are going to arrest anyone who has hauling off water and food for themselves to wait off this storm.



Another sliver of positive that can come out of this is that it gives the city of New Orleans an opportunity to modernize during the rebuilding process. A city that has been totally dependant on tourism and the last remnants of the oil industry can make itself more attractive for new types of business and industry.

They're being given an opportunity, to a certain extent, to start over once again...and with some vision, the city can come out of this terrible tragedy much stronger and ready to compete as a major southern metropolis once again.

New Orleans will survive, though. It always has, through Fire, Flood and Civil War.

I hope Girls, Girls, Girls modernizers a little. I mean, what a dive of a strip club that is! I refuse to go there more than once per trip.

:devil:

OnBaseMachine
08-30-2005, 07:18 PM
Police officer shot by looter

Tuesday, 4:25 p.m.

WWL -TV was reporting that a law enforcement officer was shot in the back of the head Tuesday afternoon on the west bank. The officer reportedly approached the looter near the intersection of Wall Boulevard and Gen. DeGaulle and, while talking to suspect, was shot in the back of the head by a second looter.

Information was not available on the condition of the officer. It was unclear if the suspects had been apprehended.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075195


Flooding in Uptown

Uptown New Orleans, once dry earlier on Tuesday, was begging to flood with water levels up to three feet in the Merango area, roughly five blocks from St Charles Avenue.

OnBaseMachine
08-30-2005, 07:23 PM
Even a cop joins in the looting

Mike Perlstein and Brian Thevenot
Staff writers

Law enforcement efforts to contain the emergency left by Katrina slipped into chaos in parts of New Orleans Tuesday with some police officers and firefighters joining looters in picking stores clean.

At the Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, an initial effort to hand out provisions to stranded citizens quickly disintegrated into mass looting. Authorities at the scene said bedlam erupted after the giveaway was announced over the radio.

While many people carried out food and essential supplies, others cleared out jewelry racks and carted out computers, TVs and appliances on handtrucks.

Some officers joined in taking whatever they could, including one New Orleans cop who loaded a shopping cart with a compact computer and a 27-inch flat screen television.

Officers claimed there was nothing they could do to contain the anarchy, saying their radio communications have broken down and they had no direction from commanders.

“We don’t have enough cops to stop it,” an officer said. “A mass riot would break out if you tried.”

Inside the store, the scene alternated between celebration and frightening bedlam. A shirtless man straddled a broken jewelry case, yelling, “Free samples, free samples over here.”

Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.

Throughout the store and parking lot, looters pushed carts and loaded trucks and vans alongside officers. One man said police directed him to Wal-Mart from Robert’s Grocery, where a similar scene was taking place. A crowd in the electronics section said one officer broke the glass DVD case so people wouldn’t cut themselves.

“The police got all the best stuff. They’re crookeder than us,” one man said.

Most officers, though, simply stood by powerless against the tide of law breakers.

One veteran officer said, “It’s like this everywhere in the city. This tiny number of cops can’t do anything about this. It’s wide open.”

At least one officer tried futilely to control a looter through shame.

“When they say take what you need, that doesn’t mean an f-ing TV,” the officer shouted to a looter. “This is a hurricane, not a free-for-all.”

Sandra Smith of Baton Rouge walked through the parking lot with a 12-pack of Bud Light under each arm. “I came down here to get my daughters,” she said, “but I can’t find them.”

The scene turned so chaotic at times that entrances were blocked by the press of people and shopping carts and traffic jams sprouted on surrounding streets.

Some groups organized themselves into assembly lines to more efficiently cart off goods.

Toni Williams, 25, packed her trunk with essential supplies, such as food and water, but said mass looting disgusted and frightened her.

“I didn’t feel safe. Some people are going overboard,” she said.

Inside the store, one woman was stocking up on make-up. She said she took comfort in watching police load up their own carts.

“It must be legal,” she said. “The police are here taking stuff, too.”

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075195

TeamMorris
08-30-2005, 08:23 PM
Wow...all I can really say is...WOW :scared:

paintmered
08-30-2005, 09:01 PM
To make a donation to the American Red Cross, click here (https://www.redcross.org/donate/donation-form.asp).

paintmered
08-30-2005, 09:17 PM
Foxnews is showing video from Biloxi. It looks like Hiroshima. What little is left appears beyond repair. :(

There's a water tower that was snapped in half like it was nothing more than a twig.

OnBaseMachine
08-30-2005, 09:38 PM
A local official tells an ABC News affiliate in Baton Rouge, La., that inmates at Orleans Parish Prison are rioting and have taken hostages -- including children -- using homemade weapons.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1081633&page=1

Reds Fanatic
08-30-2005, 10:00 PM
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075236


Mayor Ray Nagin has announced that the attempt to plug a breach in the
17th Street canal at the Hammond Highway bridge has failed and the
rising water is about to overwhelm the pumps on that canal.
The result is that water will begin rising rapidly again, and could
reach as high as 3 feet above sea level. In New Orleans and Jefferson
Parish, that means floodwaters could rise as high as 15 feet in the next
few hours.
Nagin urged residents to try to find higher ground as soon as possible.

RBA
08-30-2005, 10:14 PM
Headlines

Crisis Grows As Flooded New Orleans Looted

By ADAM NOSSITER
Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:05 PM CDT

NEW ORLEANS - Helicopters dropped sandbags on two broken levees as the water kept rising in the streets. The governor drew up plans to evacuate just about everyone left in town. Looters ransacked stores. Doctors in their scrubs had to use canoes to bring supplies to blacked-out hospitals.

New Orleans sank deeper into crisis Tuesday, a full day after Hurricane Katrina hit.

"It's downtown Baghdad," said tourist Denise Bollinger, who snapped pictures of looting in the French Quarter. "It's insane."

The mayor estimated that 80 percent of New Orleans was flooded, while a countless number of residents were still stranded on rooftops.

Hospitals were running out of power and scrambling to find places to take their patients. At one clinic, broken glass littered some areas and patients and staff had fallen on floors slick with floodwaters.

"It's like being in a Third World country," said Mitch Handrich, a registered nurse manager at Charity Hospital, where nurses were ventilating patients by hand after the power and then the backup generator failed. Some 300 patients had yet to be evacuated, but the babies in intensive care had been flown out.

"We're just trying to stay alive," Handrich said.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco said that everyone still in the city, now huddled in the Superdome and other rescue centers, needs to be evacuated. The Federal Emergency Management Agency is considering putting people on cruise ships, in tent cities, mobile home parks, and so-called floating dormitories _ boats the agency uses to house its own employees.

Rescue teams were still picking up people throughout the city Tuesday, leaving them on island-like highway overpasses and on a levee to wait to be moved again. Eventually, they will end up in the Superdome, where 15,000 to 20,000 people have taken already refuge, said Louisiana National Guard Maj. Gen. Bennett C. Landreneau. One person died at the Superdome attempting to jump from one level to a lower one.

Among the evacuees are 5,000 inmates from New Orleans and suburbs that need to be moved. Officials were trying to figure out how.

The historic French Quarter appeared to have been spared the worst flooding, but its stores were getting the worst of human nature.

"The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked," Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. "We're using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops."

As Sen. Mary Landrieu flew over the area by helicopter, a group of people smashed a window at a convenience store and jumped in.

At a drug store in the French Quarter, people were running out with grocery baskets and coolers full of soft drinks, chips and diapers. One looter shot and wounded a fellow looter, who was taken to a hospital and survived.

Only rooftops were visible in several neighborhoods and the occasional building was in flames.

On a grassy hill in the Carrolton neighborhood, a group of people watched the water quickly rising in the street, about a foot an hour by some estimates.

William Washington had gone to bed in dry house Monday night, well after the hurricane had passed. The water came up Tuesday after the levee broke, and by afternoon his home was flooded.

"We're trying to get to the Superdome," Washington said as he waited with neighbors. "We're waiting for the National Guard. The radio mentioned that they would pick people up."

With hundreds, if not thousands, of people still stranded in flooded homes, attics and rooftops across the city, rescue boats were bypassing the dead to reach the living, Mayor C. Ray Nagin said.

"We're not even dealing with dead bodies," Nagin said. "They're just pushing them on the side."

A few more feet of water could wipe out the entire city water system, said Terry Ebbert, the city's homeland security chief.

The intestates are impassable, the bridges may be unstable and no one knows if the buildings can withstand the damage brought by Katrina, the governor said after flying over the region.

"We saw block after block, neighborhood and neighborhood inundated," Blanco said, her voice breaking with emotion. "It's just heartbreaking."

Sean Jeffries of New Orleans had already been evacuated from one French Quarter hotel when he was ordered out of a second hotel Tuesday because of rising water.

The 37-year-old banker _ who admitted to looting some food from a nearby supermarket _ said the hotel guests were told they were being taken to a convention center, but from there, they didn't know.

"We're in the middle of a national tragedy," he said as he popped purloined grapes in his mouth. "But I know this city. We will be back. It may take awhile. But we will be back."

A service of the Associated Press(AP)



http://www.picayuneitem.com/art/print_icon.gifprintable version (http://www.picayuneitem.com/articles/2005/08/27/ap/headlines/d8cafqr04.prt)

Reds4Life
08-30-2005, 10:18 PM
I'm watching some of the looting video, people are stealing TV, DVD players and computers. Ya, really gonna use that stuff with no power, aren't we?

Disgusting.

RBA
08-30-2005, 10:24 PM
On the way home I noticed Gas Stations changing their signs from $2.999 (up 40 cents) a gallon for the cheap stuff. This is in El Paso, Texas, where I was buying gas for less than 1.50 a gallon less than 6 months ago.

Unassisted
08-30-2005, 10:55 PM
It's time to commandeer Cruise ships and bring them to La, Alabama.
That's right... Tell the cruise companies that we're taking their ships and using them for a National Crisis. If they don't like it, tough.

Is anyone not okay with this?There are only a couple of cruise ships that are of US registry. In other words, they are the sovereign territory of other nations. You'd need the cooperation of the registry nation to do this.

Even though the ships would provide shelter, there's still the matter of providing food. Considering the anarchy that is prevailing in the city now, I doubt that any cruise ship line would consent to filling its cabins with looters.

A better solution would be to use schools and churches for shelters. I've heard speculation that school won't open (or re-open) until December.

On another note, not sure that it was mentioned in the articles above. At least one of the parishes is asking that evacuees not return for 1 week. After a week's time, they will be permitted one visit home to gather necessities and valuables. Then they will be made to stay away from home for another month!

New Orleans is now attempting to evacuate all of the remaining people who stayed behind.

I heard somewhere that every hotel room in Louisiana is occupied now.

CrackerJack
08-30-2005, 11:01 PM
Another man rolled a mechanized pallet, stacked six feet high with cases of vodka and whiskey. Perched atop the stack was a bewildered toddler.

Wow is right.

Unassisted
08-30-2005, 11:07 PM
I've spent a couple of hours today watching those TV station streams.

One of the TV stations has its studios in the French Quarter. The streets are dry there and the building is in OK shape and accessible, but looting is so rampant in the area that the employees were afraid to occupy their building. Instead, they set up a makeshift studio at their transmitter building in the suburb of Gretna.

Later they showed aerials of packs of looters pushing shopping carts full of goods down the street in front of the station.

Newport Red
08-30-2005, 11:09 PM
I'm watching some of the looting video, people are stealing TV, DVD players and computers. Ya, really gonna use that stuff with no power, aren't we?

Disgusting.

While I agree with you on the creature comforts, other than the tourist areas, New Oreans is an extremly poor city. Poor with little mobility. They see the gravity of their current situation and have decided they need the basics.

I don't approve of looting but if you need the basics and society has for the moment been interupted, I can't condemn it.

Carting off TV's is another matter.

RFS62
08-30-2005, 11:34 PM
It's one thing to steal food to stay alive.

It's quite another to steal appliances and liquor.

Poverty is a terrible thing. The current conditions bring out the worst element in society to take advantage of the situation.

If you need food badly enough to steal it, take it with my blessings.

That doesn't include my television.

paintmered
08-30-2005, 11:38 PM
The mayor of New Orleans is now saying that snakes and alligators are entering the city.

KittyDuran
08-30-2005, 11:39 PM
I just saw video and heard audio on the damage in Biloxi... The casino that me and my parents went to last year (Presidente) was torn from it moorings and now sits on top of a hotel about a half mile down US 90. :eek:

Reds4Life
08-30-2005, 11:41 PM
The mayor of New Orleans is now saying that snakes and alligators are entering the city.

That will take care of the looters. :eek:

WVRed
08-30-2005, 11:45 PM
I just saw video and heard audio on the damage in Biloxi... The casino that me and my parents went to last year (Presidente) was torn from it moorings and now sits on top of a hotel about a half mile down US 90. :eek:

Was that the one on top of the Holiday Inn?

KittyDuran
08-30-2005, 11:47 PM
Was that the one on top of the Holiday Inn?Didn't see it in the video, but the audio just said a hotel. I sort of remember that the casino was sort of blue in color. In the video I saw another blue casino in the middle of US 90.

SandyD
08-30-2005, 11:48 PM
The failure to repair the levee breach on the 17th street canal is troubling, but I feel so lucky tonight. Most of my family are accounted for and out of the city. I heard from Alfred tonight, and that's a relief. He's in Pensacola, but I hope he can make his way here after a couple of days.

I have work, I will be paid ... I will survive.

A lot of people aren't nearly so lucky.

I have a niece, nephew and sister-in-law who are unaccounted for. They evacuated Bay St Louis to Diamondhead ... which is not much better. They were supposed to go to Hattiesburg, if it got bad. I hope she went farther than that.

RBA
08-30-2005, 11:49 PM
Deemed to be too Political. I dispise the phrase "P Thread" however.

SandyD
08-30-2005, 11:50 PM
The mayor of New Orleans is now saying that snakes and alligators are entering the city.

And groups of fire ants swimming in the flood waters.

paintmered
08-30-2005, 11:52 PM
RBA, there's already one P-thread dealing with this tragedy.

Can we keep this one politics free?

Unassisted
08-30-2005, 11:55 PM
That will take care of the looters. :eek:In all seriousness, the mayor said that he expects the rising water to help with that situation.

CrackerJack
08-31-2005, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Reds4Life
That will take care of the looters

They are taking things that will be ruined any ways, and we're talking about people, in the cases where they are taking food stuffs, that have nothing to eat or drink.

I think I'll give them a break on the looting, these people lost everything they have of any value except what's in their bank accounts - if they have anything there - all those DVD players and TV's will be covered by insurance and perish in the water any ways - it's why the cop and fireman were looting as well.

Sure they're silly and brazen about it, but lord knows what you'd do if you were in the same situation.

snowstorm
08-31-2005, 12:51 AM
The mayor of New Orleans is now saying that snakes and alligators are entering the city.

I'm trying to find the article, but authorities apparently spotted a 3 foot shark swimming around the city.

Reds4Life
08-31-2005, 12:53 AM
They are taking things that will be ruined any ways, and we're talking about people, in the cases where they are taking food stuffs, that have nothing to eat or drink.

I think I'll give them a break on the looting, these people lost everything they have of any value except what's in their bank accounts - if they have anything there - all those DVD players and TV's will be covered by insurance and perish in the water any ways - it's why the cop and fireman were looting as well.

Sure they're silly and brazen about it, but lord knows what you'd do if you were in the same situation.

So because they've lost everything they get a free pass to commit grand larceny? Taking food to survive is one thing, carting off computers, TV's and cases of booze is a totally different story. I saw the video of the cops taking stuff out of a Walmart, when this all gets sorted out they won't have a job anymore, bank on it. A New Orleans Police Officer was shot in the head today trying to stop a looters at a Chevron station and is in critical condition, I guess that's ok too. :thumbdown

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 01:13 AM
I'm trying to find the article, but authorities apparently spotted a 3 foot shark swimming around the city.


Officials reported a 3-foot (0.9-metre) shark had been spotted cruising the flooded streets.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-08-31T013552Z_01_ROB586049_RTRUKOC_0_UK-WEATHER-KATRINA.xml

and


Shootout at NO police HQ where two guys attacked with AK-47's. They fled into the French Quarter.


ALL RESIDENTS ON THE EAST BANK OF ORLEANS AND JEFFERSON REMAINING IN THE METRO AREA ARE BEING TOLD TO EVACUATE AS EFFORTS TO SANDBAG THE LEVEE BREAK HAVE ENDED. THE PUMPS IN THAT AREA ARE EXPECTED TO FAIL SOON AND 9 FEET OF WATER IS EXPECTED IN THE ENTIRE EAST BANK. WITHIN THE NEXT 12-15 HOURS

Unassisted
08-31-2005, 01:31 AM
ALL RESIDENTS ON THE EAST BANK OF ORLEANS AND JEFFERSON REMAINING IN THE METRO AREA ARE BEING TOLD TO EVACUATE AS EFFORTS TO SANDBAG THE LEVEE BREAK HAVE ENDED. THE PUMPS IN THAT AREA ARE EXPECTED TO FAIL SOON AND 9 FEET OF WATER IS EXPECTED IN THE ENTIRE EAST BANK. WITHIN THE NEXT 12-15 HOURS (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-08-31T013552Z_01_ROB586049_RTRUKOC_0_UK-WEATHER-KATRINA.xml)
Mayor Nagin is steamed about the sandbag effort being "ended." Apparently someone "at the federal level" diverted the Blackhawk helicopter assigned to lower the 3,000lb. sandbags into the breech to another rescue. It was sent off to rescue 1,000 people who were trapped in a church. The mayor doesn't know who did the diverting, but is anxious to find out. That decision could slow the recovery effort by weeks and may well result in more deaths.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 01:50 AM
I was reading elsewhere that they are expecting 12-15 more feet of water in NO, plus with the heavy rains upriver, water from the river will start backing up into New Orleans.

Caveat Emperor
08-31-2005, 02:09 AM
I was reading elsewhere that they are expecting 12-15 more feet of water in NO, plus with the heavy rains upriver, water from the river will start backing up into New Orleans.

Unless the levies can be repaired, just about every part of the East Bank of the Mississippi between the river and Lake Ponchatrain is going to have 9'+ of water, regardless of whether they are bone dry now or not.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 02:20 AM
A WDSU reporter is currently on CNN, he says another levee in the city is breaching. Unreal.

Fox News is showing video of looters at a Wal-Mart in New Orleans. People were filling up shopping carts full of clothes, televisions, and other electronics. I can understand food and water, but TV's and such? Ridiculous.

Caveat Emperor
08-31-2005, 02:26 AM
There are people posting on NOLA.com, begging for help for people that they know to be trapped in places around New Orleans...

http://www.nola.com/forums/townhall/

This whole situation is just heart wrenching.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 02:59 AM
9:21 P.M. - (AP) One Mississippi county alone said its death toll was at least 100, and officials are "very, very worried that this is going to go a lot higher," said Joe Spraggins, civil defense director for Harrison County, home to Biloxi and Gulfport.

Thirty of the victims in the county were from a beachfront apartment building that collapsed under a 25-foot wall of water as Katrina slammed the Gulf Coast with 145-mph winds.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

oregonred
08-31-2005, 05:14 AM
Just when you thought you'd seen everything. I'm sure someone, somwhere will find a way to justify the actions of the nice people gathered in front of the kids hospital

Children's Hospital under seige

Tuesday, 11:45 p.m.

Late Tuesday, Gov. Blanco spokeswoman Denise Bottcher described a disturbing scene unfolding in uptown New Orleans, where looters were trying to break into Children's Hospital.

Bottcher said the director of the hospital fears for the safety of the staff and the 100 kids inside the hospital. The director said the hospital is locked, but that the looters were trying to break in and had gathered outside the facility.

The director has sought help from the police, but, due to rising flood waters, police have not been able to respond.

Bottcher said Blanco has been told of the situation and has informed the National Guard. However, Bottcher said, the National Guard has also been unable to respond.

GoReds
08-31-2005, 09:55 AM
I also heard a report that there has been at least one shark spotted in the streets of New Orleans.

Roy Tucker
08-31-2005, 09:59 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/30/AR2005083000765.html

The Relief Effort
Storm Cleanup May Be Biggest In U.S. History

By Elizabeth Williamson and Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 31, 2005; Page A01

Charities and the federal government launched what aid agencies predicted could be the longest and costliest relief effort in U.S. history, as workers began arriving last night in states devastated by Hurricane Katrina, and as the U.S. military organized an intensive response by already stretched National Guard and active-duty forces.

The American Red Cross, working in concert with the Federal Emergency Management Agency, called its plan to house and feed tens of thousands of people the biggest response to a single natural disaster in the organization's 124-year history. With deep flooding that may not recede for weeks in areas across three states, charities said that thousands could remain homeless for more than a year and that the rebuilding would probably take even longer..

"This disaster response is going to exceed our response to last year's back-to-back four hurricanes" in Florida, said Red Cross spokeswoman Devorah Goldburg. That effort included serving 16.5 million meals and providing the equivalent of 430,000 nights of shelter. "We're anticipating that Katrina will exceed those numbers."

The needs were as immense as they were varied, ranging from urgent search-and-rescue requests to pressing demands for shelter and clean water, and daunting longer-range challenges that were barely coming into focus last night.

The Air Force, Navy and Army began mobilizing troops and equipment to augment National Guard units, including helicopters with night-search gear and amphibious watercraft with civilian teams for rescuing stranded citizens. The Navy and U.S. Merchant Marine readied five ships in Norfolk and Baltimore: the hospital ship USNS Comfort, as well as helicopter-carrying vessels and ships that can carry landing craft, construction equipment, Humvees, forklifts, food, fuel and water-purification equipment.

The Pentagon yesterday created an unprecedented domestic task force -- headed by a three-star general and based in Mississippi -- to coordinate emergency operations by Guard and active-duty forces across four states. Driving the U.S. military response was the realization of the "sheer magnitude" of the catastrophe once dawn broke, said Michael Kucharek, spokesman for U.S. Northern Command in Colorado Springs.

The Red Cross had opened more than 200 shelters yesterday in concert with FEMA, which mobilized before the storm when President Bush designated Louisiana and Mississippi disaster areas. That allowed FEMA rescue workers to bring in water, ice and ready-to-eat meals before Katrina hit.

While rescue units pulled stranded residents from floodwater yesterday, a 50-member FEMA team was in Louisiana, making plans to order, buy and move hundreds of thousands of mobile homes into the area. FEMA will reimburse flood victims for rental housing, FEMA spokeswoman Natalie Rule said. The need was made more urgent yesterday when Louisiana officials decided to evacuate the Superdome, a city-designated shelter damaged by wind and flooding and made miserable for its inhabitants by a lack of electricity and clean water.

"We were very well-prepared, but it's not going to be a breeze," Rule said. "This is a very large, large disaster, and it's going to require a lot of teamwork and patience."

The Salvation Army said its relief costs for Katrina will probably exceed the $30 million spent on Florida hurricane relief last year.

The nascent effort was hindered yesterday because flooding rendered so many storm-damaged areas inaccessible.

"We're getting phone calls asking for teams to rescue people still trapped in their homes," especially in New Orleans and the Mississippi cities of Biloxi and Gulfport, said Maj. George Hood, national community relations secretary for the Salvation Army. The charity was feeding and housing storm victims on the perimeters of the disaster. "We have a team 400 or 500 people in Jackson, Mississippi, [waiting for] the green light, but it's the floodwaters holding us back," Hood said. Accurate information about the disaster area was scarce, "because nothing is working," he said.

The Southern Baptist Convention has sent 1,100 volunteers from across the country to the region, organized into 64 mobile units to clear fallen trees, cook and serve meals, and help repair damaged homes.

The church expected to deploy more than 10,000 volunteers to the area in coming weeks. But as of yesterday evening, only about 40 volunteers had reached the outskirts of the flooded area. Roads and bridges were impassable or closed, and for as many as 200 miles outside the disaster area, gasoline supplies had been exhausted by motorists evacuating several days ago or had been damaged by the storm.

At one point, the church's North American headquarters in Alpharetta, Ga., was fielding e-mails requesting help by victims with no other means of communication. In one, a doctor in Mandeville, La., begged for chain saws needed to clear trees and debris from a local hospital.

"I heard a term today I've never heard before: 'cities of refuge,' " said Jim Burton, director of volunteer mobilization in the Southern Baptist Convention's headquarters. "It's just an indication of the large number of homeless and the tremendous strain put on relief organizations to meet these people's needs."

Military officials said the biggest obstacle -- in both the short and long term -- to the relief effort is likely to be devastation of infrastructure, including destroyed roads, washed-out bridges, and flooded and debris-laden airports where planes cannot land.

Such problems could require military assistance to states for many months, said Northern Command spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Sean Kelly, noting that some Air Force bases are still supporting relief from destruction caused by last year's hurricanes.

National Guard officials in the states said the scope of the disaster was stretching the manpower limits of their units, many of which have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan over the past two years.

"What brings in the active-duty military is the fact that the disaster has overcome the state response, when the state is getting overwhelmed," Kelly said. Getting power up and running as well as water supplies will also prove major tasks, he said.

The Salvation Army's Hood said the effort will be long and expensive. "Our position is, we stay until all the needs are met, and that will be a long time," he said. "Our typical philosophy is, let's go in, do the work, stay as long as needed and then figure out how to pay for it, and so far the American public has never let us down."

Staff writers Jacqueline Salmon in Little Rock and Michael Laris in Washington contributed to this report


FEMA listed the following agencies as needing cash to assist hurricane victims:


· American Red Cross, 800-HELP-NOW (435-7669) English, 800-257-7575 Spanish.

· America's Second Harvest, 800-344-8070.

· Adventist Community Services, 800-381-7171.

· Catholic Charities USA, 800-919-9338.

· Christian Disaster Response, 941-956-5183 or 941-551-9554.

· Christian Reformed World Relief Committee, 800-848-5818.

· Church World Service, 800-297-1516.

· Convoy of Hope, 417-823-8998.

· Lutheran Disaster Response, 800-638-3522.

· Mennonite Disaster Service, 717-859-2210.

· Nazarene Disaster Response, 888-256-5886.

· Operation Blessing, 800-436-6348.

· Presbyterian Disaster Assistance, 800-872-3283.

· Salvation Army, 800-SAL-ARMY (725-2769).

· Southern Baptist Convention Disaster Relief, 800-462-8657, Ext. 6440.

· United Methodist Committee on Relief, 800-554-8583.

flyer85
08-31-2005, 10:50 AM
why get upset about a little looting ... it's just natural selection and survival of the fittest at work. Afterall, it's just human nature. ;)

WVRed
08-31-2005, 11:01 AM
Faux-News=25,000 people being relocated from the Superdome to the Astrodome in Houston.

Realistically, Houston would be a good place, given there is the Astrodome, and three brand new stadiums(Toyota Center, Minute Maid Park, and Reliant Stadium)

Chip R
08-31-2005, 11:04 AM
Faux-News=25,000 people being relocated from the Superdome to the Astrodome in Houston.

Realistically, Houston would be a good place, given there is the Astrodome, and three brand new stadiums(Toyota Center, Minute Maid Park, and Reliant Stadium)
I think they could get a team of refugees to play the Reds in Minute Maid Park and they'd still beat the Reds.

WVRed
08-31-2005, 11:08 AM
I think they could get a team of refugees to play the Reds in Minute Maid Park and they'd still beat the Reds.

I heard that before the hurricane hit, the evacuees were beating the Saints 35-7 at the start of the 4th quarter.

Aaron Brooks fumbled after he was tackled by a grandmother of two.

GAC
08-31-2005, 11:33 AM
Just got off the phone with rfs. He is suppose to go down, but the closet hotel he can get is in Dothan, Alabama, some 250 miles away. So he is trying to work out arrangments right now, and it may be several days before he can go. he is trying to get ahold of Wetzel. I gave him his email.

He told me that Sandy is OK, and is in Arlington, Texas; but she lost everything. Alfred, her boyfriend, is somewhere in Florida.

Please keep these that we know so well, along with all the other relief workers trying to get in there, in your prayers.

We all know that rfs works in disaster relief, and the job can be quite stressful and taxing. And he says this is the worst he has ever seen. Right now, it's an emotional roller coaster for him. So keep Dave in your prayers ALOT!

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 11:59 AM
The NWC have revised its estimates on this years hurricanes saying they will be worse than initially projected.

Death toll in Mississippi now at 110, and expected to rise per CNN.

Unassisted
08-31-2005, 12:05 PM
Faux-News=25,000 people being relocated from the Superdome to the Astrodome in Houston.

Realistically, Houston would be a good place, given there is the Astrodome, and three brand new stadiums(Toyota Center, Minute Maid Park, and Reliant Stadium)The refugees will indeed be taken to the Astrodome in Houston and the old Reunion Arena in Dallas.

In other news, some gas stations here raised the price of regular to $2.99 overnight and the owner of one indicated he would need to raise his price to $3.26 by this afternoon. The wholesale price of gas is going through the roof.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 12:24 PM
The governor of Louisiana says everyone needs to leave New Orleans due to flooding from Hurricane Katrina. "We've sent buses in. We will be either loading them by boat, helicopter, anything that is necessary," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said. Army engineers struggled without success to plug New Orleans' breached levees with giant sandbags, and the governor said Wednesday the situation was worsening and there was no choice but to abandon the flooded city.


We are looking at 12 to 16 weeks before people can come in," Mayor Ray Nagin said on ABC's "Good Morning America, "and the other issue that's concerning me is have dead bodies in the water. At some point in time the dead bodies are going to start to create a serious disease issue."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hurricane_katrina;_ylt=AjsJx95MjPqw4w4NqlRYMN2s0NU E;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Unassisted
08-31-2005, 01:48 PM
Just heard on WWL an official announcement from some government official that there are now gangs of armed men looting homes and businesses in the French Quarter. :eek:

(edit: here's an article)

http://www.wdsu.com/weather/4919970/detail.html

Gunmen Roaming New Orleans POSTED: 11:28 am CDT August 31, 2005
UPDATED: 11:44 am CDT August 31, 2005


NEW ORLEANS -- The top Homeland Security official in New Orleans said bands of gunmen are roaming through New Orleans.Terry Ebbert said looters have been breaking into stores all over town to steal guns.

The Times-Picayune newspaper reported the gun section at a new Wal-Mart has been cleaned out. And the thieves are apparently using their new guns, with shots heard through the night.

Guns aren't the only things drawing the thieves. People commandeered a forklift on high ground to lift storm shutters and break the glass of a Rite-Aid pharmacy. A crowd stormed the store, carrying ice, water and food.

A spokeswoman for Lousiana's governor said workers at Children's Hospital huddled with sick kids and waited for help to arrive as looters tried to break in. Help never arrived.

A city councilwoman said, "The French Quarter has been attacked." She said "exhausted, scarce police" have to be diverted from search and rescue to try to control the looters.

CrackerJack
08-31-2005, 02:01 PM
So because they've lost everything they get a free pass to commit grand larceny? Taking food to survive is one thing, carting off computers, TV's and cases of booze is a totally different story. I saw the video of the cops taking stuff out of a Walmart, when this all gets sorted out they won't have a job anymore, bank on it. A New Orleans Police Officer was shot in the head today trying to stop a looters at a Chevron station and is in critical condition, I guess that's ok too. :thumbdown

As if I am ok with people shooting others - whatever, don't go there to try and justify your point, that's just plain ridiculous.

I am ok with some dirt poor people who have NOTHING now, taking from chain stores who are fully covered by insurance probably, and who are going to lose their stock regardless, and trying to salvage things of worth they can keep or re-sell, that is my point.

That's not grand larceny to me - it's salvaging.

I think it's rather naive to think someone in such a desperate situation is not going to swipe a TV that's about to be ruined by flood waters, while they've lost everything they own including the clothes on their backs, and could never afford insurance any ways.

I am NOT referring to gangs of looters running around robbing or shooting people.

I think it's easy for us to sit here and poo poo "all" of the looting going on as we sit in our air conditioned homes and drink our bottled water and watch the news.

Again I am only referring to severely flood damaged areas in the city where there really is no hope for the recovery of perishable food items and valuables that those people can use to survive.

I really don't care if Sam Walton's family is out a few thousand bucks, or millions for that matter, at all. Doesn't bother me in the least.

CrackerJack
08-31-2005, 02:04 PM
Just heard on WWL an official announcement from some government official that there are now gangs of armed men looting homes and businesses in the French Quarter. :eek:

(edit: here's an article)

http://www.wdsu.com/weather/4919970/detail.html

So is there no way that they can drop some National Guard folks in there to restore order or what? Did they not expect this to happen?

Blimpie
08-31-2005, 02:06 PM
I heard somewhere that every hotel room in Louisiana is occupied nowBoth Monday and Tuesday, I was staying in the Memphis area for work and there were 'refugees' from all over the Gulf Coast states that had driven over 450 miles looking for motel rooms. Unfortunately, most places were completely booked and they were told to begin driving east towards Nashville...These people were absolutely pitiful. They were simply staring at the TV in the lobby--speechless.

Caveat Emperor
08-31-2005, 02:08 PM
So is there no way that they can drop some National Guard folks in there to restore order or what? Did they not expect this to happen?

Unfortunately...a great many National Guard troops are now on deploy overseas and/or filling in around the state for those troops who are stationed outside of state.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 02:16 PM
In Gulfport, a man entered a bank carrying a M16. Police are now surrounding the bank.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 02:31 PM
12:11 P.M. - Army Corps: Water has become level with the Lake in the city so no more water should flow into the city, except at high tide.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html


The US media wrote that severe flooding caused by the hurricane dislodged coffins from graveyards and there are dead bodies floating in the water in the streets of New Orleans

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=national&alt=&trh=20050831&hn=23536

Blimpie
08-31-2005, 03:01 PM
I am ok with some dirt poor people who have NOTHING now, taking from chain stores who are fully covered by insurance probably, and who are going to lose their stock regardless, and trying to salvage things of worth they can keep or re-sell, that is my point.

That's not grand larceny to me - it's salvagingThis post is simply ridiculous. So, because a certain store might have insurance, they should have no say so in how they attempt to help out in times of catastrophe? My guess is that--if you are a homeowner--you, too, have insurance, right? Well, perhaps whenever someone feels "desperate" they should just kick your door in and take whatever they want. Oh, wait. We already live in that type of society. But, my guess is that you might feel differently on that day--especially if you were home "drinking your bottled water in your air conditioned home" when the looter decided that your assets were the answer to their problem.

Why should it be different for a business? This looting has very little to do with inherent desperation of these people. It's about being opportunistic. The concept of community abandoned these looters long before Katrina washed ashore. Look at the sheer amount of energy that is being wasted opening up ATMs, jewelry cases and gun displays. They struggle mightly to push a shopping cart down a flooded street; yet, none of them seem to care about the plight of their fellow neighbors who are still fighting for their lives just blocks away.



I really don't care if Sam Walton's family is out a few thousand bucks, or millions for that matter, at all. Doesn't bother me in the least.Again, this is simply an absurd statement. Why do you--or any of the citizens of New Orleans--get to decide how a corporation's generosity is manifested? Within hours of the storm's passing, Wal-Mart announced that they were donating baby clothes to families that had nothing left for their children to wear. I also heard something else on the radio this morning (WLAP-630). Apparently, Wal-Mart would soon be issuing a policy throughout the South that authorized immediate hirings, without limitations, to any person who found themselves homeless and/or jobless due to Katrina. No questions asked. Basically, if you lost everything you had in a Gulf Coast state, you could walk into a Wal-Mart in, say, Tennessee and be given a job on the spot in order to begin rebuilding your life. No nonsense about staffing overhead or budgets. Just simply, "Here's your vest. There's the time clock. Welcome."

Successful people (and normally the companies led by these people) are, by and by, generous to a fault. Most corporations can see the value of charity and altruistic behavior. Pay it forward, so to speak. The rub is that you need to let THEM decide how they wish to impart this charity.

Just because somebody has wealth, it does not mean that they are required to surrended this wealth without any input whatsoever.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 03:03 PM
12:56 A.M. - Governor Blanco - Time is not on our side for stopping the levee break. There were two breaches, when we thought there was only one. Communicatiion, or lack of same caused the problem.


12:53 A.M. - Governor Blanco - thousands still need to be rescued.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 03:21 PM
1:19 P.M. - (AP) Mayor Ray Nagin says at least hundreds of people are dead -- maybe thousands -- in New Orleans.

1:12 P.M. - WWL-TV's Josh McElveen describes the stench coming from the bathrooms in the Superdome as horrific.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Maybe thousands dead? Wow. :(

RFS62
08-31-2005, 03:26 PM
The death toll from this storm will be higher than the World Trade Center.

Reds4Life
08-31-2005, 03:32 PM
As if I am ok with people shooting others - whatever, don't go there to try and justify your point, that's just plain ridiculous.

What’s ridiculous is the notion the law doesn’t apply to you anymore if you’ve been affected by a natural disaster, and if someone has insurance it’s ok to commit a burglary against them.

I feel really bad for the people of New Orleans right now, not only do they have to contended with rebuilding their lives they have to worry about their fellow citizens stealing what little they have left.

Blimpie
08-31-2005, 03:36 PM
The death toll from this storm will be higher than the World Trade Center.I read a quote from one official in New Orleans (they chose not to be named) who was in charge of ordering the refrigerated semis that will be used as makeshift morgues. He said their fatality estimates just in New Orleans "would be in the 10's of thousands" in his opinion.

I have read so many articles and watched/listened to so many reports, that I cannot remember the link...but I will keep looking.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 03:43 PM
I just found this information on a board I have been reading


It is with heavy heart I write this...

I have finally reconnected with my best friend who is a paramedic who was sent from Georgia 2 days ago to Gulf Port, Mississippi before the hurricane hit.

He just reached me within the last 10 mins via emergency cell phone to tell me he was alive.

Thousands of bodies have been discovered throughout Mississippi in Gulf Port, Waveland,Hancock County,Bay of St.Louis.

They are hanging in trees and they are pulling them out 30 at a time. Entire families found drowned in their homes and washing up on shore.

The stories he could tell me were brief. National Guard is on the scene and arresting anyone seen on the streets.

The numbers are staggering and what I have been told tonight will shake people to their foundation as the numbers will be coming out in the next 24-hours of just how many people have actually perished in these and 3 other beach communities.

More to follow....


He again...said thousands are dead...DID NOT RETRACT...I asked AGAIN...would you say 1,000? 2,000? He said...thousands..plural. The bodies are being picked up and transferred boat to boat to be brought back to shore

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1473894/posts

So sad. Earlier in this thread I predicted maybe 150 or so would be found dead from this storm. Sadly, I wish that was the case now. Things are looking pretty bad right now.

Federal officials have declared a public health emergency for the entire Gulf Coast region.

creek14
08-31-2005, 03:47 PM
The death toll will be staggering and tragic.

And even with that, when the next storm comes, people will refuse to evacuate.

CrackerJack
08-31-2005, 03:51 PM
What’s ridiculous is the notion the law doesn’t apply to you anymore if you’ve been affected by a natural disaster, and if someone has insurance it’s ok to commit a burglary against them.

I'm scratching my head as to where I advocated this generally speaking? I thought I qualified my statements to specific circumstances, so I will just end this nonsense here. Not a big deal or worth arguing over honestly.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-31-2005, 04:03 PM
Where would they keep everyone that has been arrested?

Sit all the criminals on top of the Superdome?

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 04:09 PM
Col. Rich Wagenaar says water is still pouring into the city. Says there are still atleast two breaches in the levees, went on to say that it will take two or three days to fix them, and they still have no solution as to how to fix it.

Chip R
08-31-2005, 04:10 PM
Where would they keep everyone that has been arrested?

Sit all the criminals on top of the Superdome?
Keep them in the Superdome. From what I've heard about conditions in there that would be punishment enough.

RFS62
08-31-2005, 04:16 PM
It's becoming apparent that Mississippi is ground zero, with many areas simply erased.

Blimpie
08-31-2005, 04:19 PM
Forgive me, OBM, if you have already posted this. This is an article that was written after Hurricane Ivan last year (Oct. '04 IIRC). The writer poses what the reality would be for New Orleans should it ever receive a direct blow from a hurricane. Now that it has happened, the loss predictions from the Red Cross, unfortunately, are starting to sound pretty realistic.... :(


New Orleans' growing danger

Wetlands loss leaves city a hurricane hit away from disaster.

By Paul Nussbaum

Inquirer Staff Writer


NEW ORLEANS - From a helicopter above the Gulf of Mexico, Col. Peter Rowan could see that his first line of defense had been breached.

Where Breton and the Chandeleur Islands had been, only pale green water now sparkled in the sun. Hurricane Ivan had pummeled the sand and grass barriers two weeks earlier, washing away much of them - and the hurricane protection they provide for New Orleans.

"It looks like it's pretty much all gone," said Rowan, commander of the New Orleans district of the Army Corps of Engineers.

The second line of defense is vanishing, too. Wetlands, which absorb much of the storm surge of approaching hurricanes, are disappearing at the rate of 28,000 acres a year, bringing the sea that much closer to the city.

So New Orleans, tucked below sea level between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain, is in growing danger of drowning. A direct hit by a very powerful hurricane could swamp its levees and leave as much as 20 feet of chemical-laden, snake-infested water trapped in the man-made bowl.

More than 25,000 people could die, emergency officials predict. That would make it the deadliest disaster in U.S. history, with many more fatalities than the San Francisco earthquake, the great Chicago fire, and the 9/11 attacks combined.

"It's only a matter of time," said Terry C. Tullier, city director of emergency preparedness.

"Ivan just missed us by a hairsbreadth," he said. "The thing that keeps me awake at night is the 100,000 people who couldn't leave."

Ten thousand body bags have been stockpiled by Jefferson Parish in a New Orleans suburb, just in case.

After Ivan slipped past 175 miles to the east, the 600,000 residents who evacuated last month returned, knowing they might need to flee again: The hurricane season lasts through November, and forecasters believe the Atlantic region has entered an active cycle that could last 15 to 30 years.

Engineers and ecologists are scrambling to save the city by several natural and man-made strategies, which is fitting, since nature and humans have conspired for decades to make New Orleans ever more vulnerable to a killer hurricane.

The root of the problem is location. New Orleans is hemmed in by 300-square-mile Lake Pontchartrain to the north and the Mississippi to the south and west. Built on newly deposited alluvial soil, the city has been sinking ever since its founding in 1718. Draining land for development has made it sink even faster. And sea levels are rising.

Close calls

To protect the city from floods, the river and lake have been lined with levees, grass-covered walls as high as 18 feet. The levees keep the Mississippi in its channel, but they have exacerbated the loss of wetlands by cutting off the periodic flood of freshwater and sediment necessary for the wetlands' survival. And the levees would trap water in the city if they are overtopped in a big hurricane.

Hurricanes are part of life here, as much as beignets and beads, but most recent storms have spared New Orleans. Betsy (Category 3) hit in 1965, leaving eight feet of water in some places. Camille (Category 5) in 1969 swept by 60 miles to the east. Andrew (also Category 5) in 1992 came within 100 miles. This year, it was Ivan.

The levees are designed to protect the city from a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane. A more powerful one, such as this year's Charley or Ivan (Category 4), or a slow Category 3 could send lake water surging over the levees.

The worst scenario would be a big hurricane arriving from the east, pushing a wall of water from the gulf into Lake Pontchartrain, then over the levees into the city. There it would remain, submerging single-story houses and lapping at the eaves of two-story buildings.

'Clinging to light poles'

"The Red Cross has estimated 25,000 to 100,000 would drown, and I don't think that is unrealistic," said Ivor van Heerden, director of Louisiana State University's Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes. About 300,000 of the area's 1.2 million people would not evacuate, he predicted, and many of those would be the most vulnerable - elderly, disabled, homeless, carless.

"You'd have people on roofs, clinging to light poles, commandeering high-rises," he said. "And wherever they were, they would be competing with animals and fire ants for the high ground." And since the New Orleans area is home to many refineries and petrochemical plants, burning gasoline on the floodwaters would be an additional hazard, he said.

Rescuing 300,000 people trapped inside the flooded bowl would be a logistical nightmare, and officials have started enlisting private boat owners who could help a Dunkirk-style operation to ferry people out.

There are national implications, too, if New Orleans is hammered. About one-fourth of the nation's oil and natural-gas production is here, as is one-third of its seafood catch. Thousands of miles of oil and gas pipelines snake through the bayous and marshes.

The region is home to the nation's largest port complex, moving 16 percent of its cargo.

"A week after a hurricane here, you wouldn't be able to find underwear at a Wal-Mart in Des Moines," Tullier said.

A glimpse of that ripple effect could be seen this week, as worldwide oil prices surged because of reduced Gulf of Mexico production after Ivan.

So, what to do?

Experts say it will take a combination of higher levees, new floodgates and restored wetlands to save New Orleans. And time is not an ally; hurricane-protection projects are moving slowly, even as the threat seems to grow each year.

"It's possible to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane," said Al Naomi, senior project manager for the Corps of Engineers. "But we've got to start. To do nothing is tantamount to negligence."

It could take 20 years and at least $1 billion to raise the levees high enough and to build floodgates at the mouth of Lake Pontchartrain, Naomi said.

The corps hoped to begin a study this year of the steps necessary and the costs. Just the study would take four years and cost $4 million, Naomi said, but the money is not in the federal budget for 2005, though the Senate has yet to act.

The other part of the equation - restoring wetlands - is a bit further along, but marshes are still disappearing much faster than they are being created. Wetlands are vital for many things, including fish and wildlife; as a hurricane buffer, they act as a sponge to absorb the storm surge. Four miles of marsh can absorb about one foot of surge.

About 1,900 square miles of Louisiana coastal wetlands, an area the size of Delaware, have been lost since 1930. At least 70 percent of the loss is blamed on human activities, such as flood levees and oil and gas pipeline channels.

At current rates, even including current restoration efforts, 1,000 more square miles of wetlands would be lost by 2050.

To begin to reverse the process, the corps has opened diversion channels in Mississippi River levees to mimic nature and allow nourishing freshwater and sediment to once again escape into wetlands. But those feasibility projects are relatively small, and the need is large.

"About 28 percent of the loss is being addressed," said Troy Constance, corps project manager for the Louisiana Coastal Area study, who is working with other state and U.S. agencies.

To save the wetlands - and the fisheries, petroleum production and hurricane protection they provide - would require an initial $1.9 billion over 10 years, and an estimated $10 billion to $14 billion over 30 years, Constance said. That initial $1.9 billion funding, to be used for such things as freshwater diversion, grass plantings and dredged fill material, has not been approved by Congress.

"If we want to save New Orleans from becoming an Atlantis, we have to restore the wetlands," said van Heerden. "The Mississippi has a great capacity to build wetlands, and we are not harnessing that ability."

"Ivan was a real wake-up call. We have to take Ivan's near-miss to get the federal government to fast-track some of these restoration projects."

Officials worry the recent focus on terrorism exposes New Orleans to a more likely danger.

"With the creation of Homeland Security, we have taken a backseat," said Walter Maestri, emergency management director in Jefferson Parish. "To us, it is pretty obvious which is the greater threat. One is maybe, the other is when."

In the meantime, evacuation is the only way to protect New Orleanians. The Red Cross will not even staff hurricane shelters in the city because of flooding danger. But evacuation from the threat of Ivan produced 12-hour traffic jams, and that was with only about half the residents on the roads. The experience may make many people reluctant to leave next time.

Rowan, the commander of the New Orleans district of the Corps of Engineers, said that for now, New Orleans would have to rely on luck, because protection projects take many years.

"We have been fortunate, and hopefully, we'll continue to be fortunate," he said. "There always is a perfect storm, and we have not built for the perfect storm. The exact right combination would be catastrophic."

"We are at the mercy of chance for the foreseeable future."

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 04:29 PM
I hadn't seen that, Blimpie, thanks for posting it.

HBO is currently showing The Day After Tomorrow, pretty bad timing to show a movie of that nature during a time like this.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 04:51 PM
If I heard correctly, Bourbon Street is now under waste high water, according to Jim Spellman on CNN. Yesterday Bourbon Street was supposedly dry.

Reds Fanatic
08-31-2005, 05:24 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/31/katrina.impact/index.html


"We are gravely concerned about the potential for cholera, typhoid and dehydrating diseases that could come as a result of the stagnant water and the conditions," Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt said Wednesday after announcing the emergency.

"We are also erecting a network of up to 40 medical shelters," Leavitt said. "They will have the capacity, collectively, of 10,000 beds, and will be staffed by some 4,000 qualified medical personnel."

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 05:35 PM
Building(s) on fire on Bourbon Street. Officials fear it may spread.


3:18 P.M. - WWL-TV's Thanh Truong reports the water from the Lake is rising to meet with the River in Uptown.


3:25 P.M. - Truong: A man said he was carjacked at gunpoint. Other residents of the Uptown-area say they are afraid to leave their homes because of the lack of security.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Water has risen to chest high deep around the Superdome.

Edit...some guy on CNN said 1/3 of the people who decided to stay in NO could be dead. That equates to roughly 30,000 people in NO alone.

ochre
08-31-2005, 07:31 PM
Unfortunately...a great many National Guard troops are now on deploy overseas and/or filling in around the state for those troops who are stationed outside of state.
actually there is an NGB initiative to get ~10,000 Guardsmen down there within the next 24 hours or so.

Its a shaky scenario in my opinion though. The area is already saturated with people that have no where to go and the disaster relief people will be filing in on top of them. It really is an untenable situation.

**added later
I think the TF commander for this will be a guy from Ohio, BG Lee. He's a legitimately great guy from my experiences with him.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-31-2005, 07:35 PM
NBC News just showed how ugly things are getting in the Superdome. It looked like a riot. Even rival gangs are starting to fight inside. The plumbing is backed up. It stinks. It's hot. And there is nowhere out. Apparently they are going to try to transfer most of the Superdome refugees to the Astrodome in Houston.

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-31-2005, 07:46 PM
HBO is currently showing The Day After Tomorrow, pretty bad timing to show a movie of that nature during a time like this.

That's horrible timing. I certainly hope this was an oversight and not a deliberate decision.

Heath
08-31-2005, 08:54 PM
That's horrible timing. I certainly hope this was an oversight and not a deliberate decision.

I'm scanning to see if FX decides to run "oil storm"..... :help:

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2005, 08:57 PM
Check out the NASA simulation of New Orleans underwater.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/custom/2005/08/31/CU2005083101665.html

jmcclain19
08-31-2005, 09:17 PM
I'm scanning to see if FX decides to run "oil storm"..... :help:
We're thinking the same thing my friend

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=819834&postcount=70

Watching that movie earlier this summer, I thought it was interesting, but it just gives me chills now watching all this happen.

Doubt they will show it for a long, long time though. I notice it was for sale on DVD a little while ago on FX's website and it isn't now.

Unassisted
09-01-2005, 12:48 AM
Here's a first-hand gripping account of life in downtown New Orleans.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

It's the blog of a hosting company based there, trying like anything to keep the servers running and keep the looters at bay. There's mention of the N.O. police looting ATMs and commandeering new SUVs from dealer showrooms.

Anchor on our local news said she and her photographer drove by looters carrying guns on her way into N.O. today. She said it was the first time in her long career that she's been scared while on an assignment.

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 02:16 AM
The first bus carrying refugees from the Superdome to Astrodome has arrived in Houston...more than an hour early. Officials aren't sure where this bus come from, they aren't even sure the bus came from the Superdome. They are calling it a "renagade" bus. Some are speculating that the bus was looted from NO.

Edit...they are saying the bus did come from NO, but NOT the Superdome.

One individual said there were rumors of dead bodies being found in the Superdome....and women being raped.

TeamBoone
09-01-2005, 08:33 AM
The first bus carrying refugees from the Superdome to Astrodome has arrived in Houston...more than an hour early. Officials aren't sure where this bus come from, they aren't even sure the bus came from the Superdome. They are calling it a "renagade" bus. Some are speculating that the bus was looted from NO.

Edit...they are saying the bus did come from NO, but NOT the Superdome.


Does this really matter? I'm sure these individuals also have no other alternative.

LvJ
09-01-2005, 09:31 AM
:angry: WTF?? People shooting at the guardsmen. One was just shot, per CNN.

RFS62
09-01-2005, 09:34 AM
Evacuation of Superdome suspended. Shots fired at military helicopter.

TeamBoone
09-01-2005, 10:10 AM
According to the NO correspondant on the today show, this story has NOT been confirmed (though I have no doubt that it's probably true).

Reds Fanatic
09-01-2005, 10:19 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/


NEW ORLEANS - National Guard troops in armored vehicles poured into New Orleans on Thursday to curb the growing lawlessness that included shots reportedly fired at a helicopter airlifting people out of the Superdome and arson fires outside the arena.

The scene at the Superdome became increasingly chaotic, with thousands of people rushing from nearby hotels and other buildings, hoping to climb onto the buses taking evacuees from the arena, officials said. Paramedics became increasingly alarmed by the sight of people with guns.

The operation to bus more than 20,000 people to the Houston Astrodome was suspended “until they gain control of the Superdome,” said Richard Zeuschlag, head of Acadian Ambulance, which was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the Superdome.

He said that military would not fly out of the Superdome either because of the gunfire and that the National Guard told him that it was sending 100 military police officers to gain control.
“That’s not enough,” Zeuschlag. “We need a thousand.”

He said medics were calling him and crying for help because they were so scared of people with guns at the Superdome.

Lt. Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said the military — which was handling the evacuation of the able-bodied from the Superdome — had suspended operations, too, because fires set outside the arena were preventing buses from getting close enough to pick up people.

Zeuschlag said shots were fired at a military helicopter over the Superdome before daybreak, adding that when another evacuation helicopter tried to land at a hospital in the outlying town of Kenner overnight, the pilot reported that 100 people were on the landing pad, and some of them had guns.

“He was frightened and would not land,” Zeuschlag said.

Reinforcements called in
An additional 10,000 National Guard troops from across the country were ordered into the Gulf Coast to shore up security, rescue and relief operations. The new units brought the number of troops dedicated to the effort to more than 28,000, in what may be the largest military response to a natural disaster.

Looting has also been a problem in Mississippi.

“The truth is, a terrible tragedy like this brings out the best in most people, brings out the worst in some people,” said Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour on NBC’s “Today” show Thursday. “We’re trying to deal with looters as ruthlessly as we can get our hands on them.”

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, meanwhile, said one problem is that “we have an ongoing flood situation even as we’re in the middle of recovering from the hurricane.”

“We’re in a position where there are additional people we have to look for,” he told “Today.” “We’re hoping to get the most people out as we can in the next 12 hours and 24 hours, but we’re going to continue to search until we’re sure we’ve got everybody safe.”

New Orleans police focus on looters
In New Orleans, Mayor Ray Nagin on Wednesday night ordered the city's 1,500 police officers to leave their search-and-rescue mission and focus on stopping the looting.

Looters and armed gangs “are starting to get closer to heavily populated areas — hotels, hospitals and we’re going to stop it right now,” Nagin said.

Looters used garbage cans and inflatable mattresses to float away with food, blue jeans, tennis shoes, TV sets — even guns. The driver of a nursing-home bus surrendered the vehicle to thugs after being threatened.

Police were asking residents to give up any firearms before they evacuated neighborhoods because officers desperately needed the firepower: Some officers who had been stranded on the roof of a hotel said they were shot at.

Nagin called for an all-out evacuation of the city’s remaining residents. Asked how many people died, he said: “Minimum, hundreds. Most likely, thousands.”

registerthis
09-01-2005, 10:56 AM
The first bus carrying refugees from the Superdome to Astrodome has arrived in Houston...more than an hour early. Officials aren't sure where this bus come from, they aren't even sure the bus came from the Superdome. They are calling it a "renagade" bus. Some are speculating that the bus was looted from NO.OK, I know this is a significant tragedy, and it's awful, and these people need as much help as possible...but a part of me finds the idea of a "looted, renegade bus" highly amusing. :)

registerthis
09-01-2005, 10:58 AM
Evacuation of Superdome suspended. Shots fired at military helicopter.This makes absolutely no sense at all.

This isn't simply looting, this is out-and-out lawlessness. It's so incredibly disappointing that in times of crises there are people who behave like this. What, pray tell, could be gained by shooting a military rescue helicopter?

Caveat Emperor
09-01-2005, 11:22 AM
This makes absolutely no sense at all.

This isn't simply looting, this is out-and-out lawlessness. It's so incredibly disappointing that in times of crises there are people who behave like this. What, pray tell, could be gained by shooting a military rescue helicopter?

The best parts of me would like to attribute this behavior to the fact that, unfortunately, the preexisting criminal elements of the city were also probably among the least likely to have the ability to leave and thus probably ended up remaining at shelters such as the Dome.

There's a horrifying article in today's Washington Post about what it was supposedly like inside the shelter: "And Now We Are in Hell" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/31/AR2005083102801.html)

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 12:19 PM
Does this really matter? I'm sure these individuals also have no other alternative.

I have no problem with them doing what they did. These people are in just as bad shape as the others

Hopefully the alligators and snakes take care of those fokes who are shooting at helicopters and stealing electronics.


NEW ORLEANS — A 2-year-old girl slept in a pool of urine. Crack vials littered the restroom. Blood stains the walls next to vending machines smashed by teenagers. The Louisiana Superdome, once a mighty testament to architecture and ingenuity, became the biggest storm shelter in New Orleans the day before Katrina's arrival Monday. About 16,000 people eventually settled in. Within two days, it had degenerated into unspeakable horror. A few hundred were evacuated from the arena yesterday, and buses will take away the remaining people today.

"We pee on the floor. We are like animals," Taffany Smith, 25, said as she cradled her 3-week-old son, Terry. In her right hand she carried a half-full bottle of formula provided by rescuers. Baby supplies are running low; one mother said she was given two diapers and told to scrape them off when they got dirty and use them again. At least two people, including a child, have been raped as the arena darkened at night. At least three people have died, including one man who jumped 50 feet to his death, saying he had nothing left to live for.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002463400_katrinasuperdome01.html

Reds Fanatic
09-01-2005, 12:26 PM
There are now 50,000 to 60,000 people waiting for evacuation at the Superdome. People have come out of office builidings and hotels to attempt to join the evacuation to the Astrodome. The problem is the Astrodome has offered to take 25,000 refugees. They are going to need to find another large stadium to house all the rest of these people. I have a bad feeling the Superdome evacuation is about to look like the fall of Saigon.

TeamBoone
09-01-2005, 12:46 PM
Houston is a big city (as are others in Texas) so I'm sure there are more potential refuges if push comes to shove, including tent housing... not only in Houston, but anywhere outside the periphery of Katrina devastation.

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 02:23 PM
12:11 P.M. - (New York Times): The NBA may move the Hornets out of New Orleans for the entire season. Click here. (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/sports/basketball/01games.html)

12:07 P.M. - WWL-TV's Brad Panovich: Mother Nature reclaimed the Mississippi River delta. If she wants to move the delta, or move the city, then she will.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Reds Fanatic
09-01-2005, 02:27 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/


NEW ORLEANS - Thousands of desperate residents begged for help as conditions deteriorated here Thursday, and rising tension led to fights, fires and fears for the safety of emergency responders.

“We are out here like pure animals. We don’t have help,” the Rev. Isaac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center, complaining that he and hundreds of others were evacuated, taken to the convention hall by bus, dropped off and given nothing.

People outside the center, some holding crying babies or elderly barely able to stand up, shouted for help as TV news crews passed by.

Other parts of the city saw similar desperation. “We need help,” Polly Boudreaux, clerk of the St. Bernard Parish Council, told WAFB-TV in a phone interview in which she broke down crying.

“We're just been absolutely devastated,” she said, and many residents still need to be rescued.

Little outside aid has reached the parish, she added. “We are not seeing it.”

While most stranded residents were orderly, police warned reporters to be careful given the desperation.

“We were told don't drink or eat in public as it could lead to a mob situation,” NBC's Michelle Hofland said. “We were told that by sundown to get out of here.”

Federal rescue workers were pulled back from some areas of the city where gunfire was heard or reported, a Department of Homeland Security official told NBC News.

“Hospitals are trying to evacuate,” said Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan, spokesman at the city emergency operations center. “At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in people are shooting at them. There are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, “You better come get my family.”

Police Capt. Ernie Demmo said a National Guard military policeman was shot in the leg as the two scuffled for the MP’s rifle. The man was arrested.

“These are good people. These are just scared people,” Demmo said.

CrackerJack
09-01-2005, 02:34 PM
I'm growing increasingly displeased with the fact it's now mid-Thursday and thousands of people in the stadium are still living in pools of their own feces. No wonder they're shooting at helicopters and turning to desperate, criminal behavior. And let's not focus on the fact that's occuring - sure it's absolutely wrong, but it could've been avoided had this been planned for and handled properly.

It's disgusting that we treat our own citizenary this way.

I could go on a big rant but I'm sure people will poo-poo me for daring to criticize the idiot that is our president for almost single-handedly letting this happen by not supporting levee re-construction. And the spreading our troops so thin they can't even respond to this (for whatever reason) in a timely manner before people are living in the most dispicable conditions and literally dying because of it.

This is the kind of thing that makes me want to burn my flag in my front yard - I hate our government and I hate the way they treat Americans and how we always come 2nd to their own special interests abroad.

I am just glad that there's a growing sentiment amongst people in their 20's and 30's like me who are increasingly waking up and realizing what we've let our government do to us as Americans.

Enough politicizing and people can go back to complaining about the looters taking TV sets I guess.

But i hope they get these folks out of there by tonight.

Cedric
09-01-2005, 02:39 PM
I'm growing increasingly displeased with the fact it's now mid-Thursday and thousands of people in the stadium are still living in pools of their own feces. No wonder they're shooting at helicopters and turning to desperate, criminal behavior. And let's not focus on the fact that's occuring - sure it's absolutely wrong, but it could've been avoided had this been planned for and handled properly.

It's disgusting that we treat our own citizenary this way.

I could go on a big rant but I'm sure people will poo-poo me for daring to criticize the idiot that is our president for almost single-handedly letting this happen by not supporting levee re-construction. And the spreading our troops so thin they can't even respond to this (for whatever reason) in a timely manner before people are living in the most dispicable conditions and literally dying because of it.

This is the kind of thing that makes me want to burn my flag in my front yard - I hate our government and I hate the way they treat Americans and how we always come 2nd to their own special interests abroad.

I am just glad that there's a growing sentiment amongst people in their 20's and 30's like me who are increasingly waking up and realizing what we've let our government do to us as Americans.

Enough politicizing and people can go back to complaining about the looters taking TV sets I guess.

But i hope they get these folks out of there by tonight.

Huh? It's called a natural disaster and it's not something easily planned for. Of course people always want to blame someone for things that aren't easily handled.

traderumor
09-01-2005, 02:42 PM
While most stranded residents were orderly, police warned reporters to be careful given the desperation.

“We were told don't drink or eat in public as it could lead to a mob situation,” NBC's Michelle Hofland said. “We were told that by sundown to get out of here.”

How can we justify having anyone with motives other than helping save as many people as they can near this situation?

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 02:45 PM
Fox News is showing an enormous fire in New Orleans...don't what what is on fire but its huge.

RFS62
09-01-2005, 02:47 PM
New Orleans is spiraling out of control. There will be riots by tonight if something big isn't done. Relief workers are going to start being taken hostage or killed, news crews too.

You can't leave them without food and water. They don't know what's going on. They believe they've been abandoned.

The elderly, sick and infirm, and infants are suffering beyond belief. Most of the people have done everything they were told to do. They made their way through waist deep water to the dome, after days without food or water. They are waiting to be rescued in the midst of terrible suffering. They don't see the TV reports. They think they've been abandoned.

The gang element has been roaming the streets looting, not for food, but for valuables. They're breaking into houses, not just businesses. Dead bodies are floating all over the place.

Many bus drivers are afraid to go back in to pick up refugees. They're intimidated by the thugs and gangs, which are running rampant.

Chip R
09-01-2005, 02:50 PM
I'm growing increasingly displeased with the fact it's now mid-Thursday and thousands of people in the stadium are still living in pools of their own feces. No wonder they're shooting at helicopters and turning to desperate, criminal behavior.
Let's see here, there are people at the Superdome who are living in pools of their own feces, who don't have air conditioning in one of the most hot and humid sities in the country, and they don't have electricity there. Helicopters come there and try to evacuate them from this living hell and they shoot at them. Call me crazy but if someone is offering to evacuate me from there, I'm certainly not going to shoot at them. I'm going to do everything in my power to make it easier for them to rescue me.

Chip R
09-01-2005, 03:01 PM
Fats Domino is missing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_en_mu/katrina_fats_domino

15fan
09-01-2005, 03:10 PM
I could go on a big rant but I'm sure people will poo-poo me for daring to criticize the idiot that is our president for almost single-handedly letting this happen by not supporting levee re-construction.

That's right. Because, you know, the current president is the guy who decided to settle and develop New Orleans into a major urban area despite the obvious geographic shortcomings. He's the guy who designed, built & maintained the inadequate levee system. No one else ever had the ability to do something about it ahead of time, instead opting to pass the buck and make something else a more important priority. Clearly, it's 100% GWB's fault.

As far as the situation in New Orleans, I can only hope that the good folks down there get what they're due.

Same goes for the despicable thugs who are wreaking havoc.

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 03:15 PM
Fats Domino is missing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_en_mu/katrina_fats_domino

Dang! I just called my grandma and told her this. She used to love Fats Domino back in the day. She still walks around singing "Blueberry Hill." :)

traderumor
09-01-2005, 03:22 PM
New Orleans is spiraling out of control. There will be riots by tonight if something big isn't done. Relief workers are going to start being taken hostage or killed, news crews too.

You can't leave them without food and water. They don't know what's going on. They believe they've been abandoned.

The elderly, sick and infirm, and infants are suffering beyond belief. Most of the people have done everything they were told to do. They made their way through waist deep water to the dome, after days without food or water. They are waiting to be rescued in the midst of terrible suffering. They don't see the TV reports. They think they've been abandoned.

The gang element has been roaming the streets looting, not for food, but for valuables. They're breaking into houses, not just businesses. Dead bodies are floating all over the place.

Many bus drivers are afraid to go back in to pick up refugees. They're intimidated by the thugs and gangs, which are running rampant.And there is little to no threat against those who are killing, raping, and stealing. No one knows who survived and who didn't. Kill someone, just throw em in the water with all the other floating corpses. What an unimaginable mess. :cry:

traderumor
09-01-2005, 03:23 PM
And BTW, I don't care whose flipping fault anything is at this time, we just need to save all those people. We can point fingers on this matter later.

RBA
09-01-2005, 03:40 PM
New Orleans mayor sending out SOS on CNN. Apparently the Feds stories about everything is hunky dory is full of it. New Orleanians have taken to walking out on the expressway to search for relief.

Reds Fanatic
09-01-2005, 03:45 PM
According to CNN's website a New Orleans hospital has halted patient evacuations after coming under sniper fire.

RBA
09-01-2005, 03:49 PM
People adverstising free rooms for the victims...

http://neworleans.craigslist.org/hhh/

RedsBaron
09-01-2005, 03:53 PM
And BTW, I don't care whose flipping fault anything is at this time, we just need to save all those people. We can point fingers on this matter later.
Are you crazy? The most important thing anybody can do is blame George W. Bush for everything-that's vastly more important than saving people. :bang:

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 04:01 PM
Majors buildings in Mississippi are collapsing and just what we call 'pancaking,' " said Gary Hargrove, the coroner for Harrison County, home to Gulfport and Biloxi.

Blimpie
09-01-2005, 04:25 PM
I'm growing increasingly displeased with the fact it's now mid-Thursday and thousands of people in the stadium are still living in pools of their own feces. No wonder they're shooting at helicopters and turning to desperate, criminal behavior. And let's not focus on the fact that's occuring - sure it's absolutely wrong, but it could've been avoided had this been planned for and handled properly.Apparently, you have absolutely no comprehension of either the scope or the complexities involved in this disaster relief effort. If you thought that all of these poor survivors would be taking nice, relaxing baths within 72 hours--then you are incapable of understanding the logistical and engineering problems that the rescue workers are currently facing.


It's disgusting that we treat our own citizenary this way.If you mean firing shots at rescue workers and helicopter pilots, then yes, I agree with you.


I could go on a big rant but I'm sure people will poo-poo me for daring to criticize the idiot that is our president for almost single-handedly letting this happen by not supporting levee re-construction.I didn't realize that America was now a monarchy. Are you sure that you are not confusing Bush with Napoleon?


And the spreading our troops so thin they can't even respond to this (for whatever reason) in a timely manner before people are living in the most dispicable conditions and literally dying because of it.It's not the troops that are taking the time to respond, it's the massive armada of naval carriers, swift boats and rescue helicopters that are needing the extra time to mobilize. Again, they will be on site this weekend--which is pretty good considering that some of these assets are coming from as far away as California and Maryland.


This is the kind of thing that makes me want to burn my flag in my front yard - I hate our government and I hate the way they treat Americans and how we always come 2nd to their own special interests abroad.

I am just glad that there's a growing sentiment amongst people in their 20's and 30's like me who are increasingly waking up and realizing what we've let our government do to us as Americans.

Enough politicizing and people can go back to complaining about the looters taking TV sets I guess.

But i hope they get these folks out of there by tonight.If the manner if which our country--and its citizens--have responded to this crisis has become your "rallying cry" for bashing our entire government, then do me a favor and go back to sleep.

ochre
09-01-2005, 04:37 PM
Apparently, you have absolutely no comprehension of either the scope or the complexities involved in this disaster relief effort.


I do. It would be much easier if the forces needed to quell the situation didn't have to come from as far away as Ohio. It would have been nice to start preparing them before Wednesday. It is pretty well documented that the City of New Orleans would be devastated by a Hurricane of this magnitude. Those that coordinate efforts at the national level (government staff and military) didn't seem to think ahead. Notice I am not blaming the President, but like many of the other contemporary issues we face, he is not entirely blameless in this.

WVRed
09-01-2005, 05:02 PM
They need to replace the mayor with Rudy Giuliani. :beerme:

TeamCasey
09-01-2005, 05:03 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/

It's so desperate at the convention center. I can't watch it without being in tears. I can't turn it off.

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 05:06 PM
CNN showing a steady rain coming down at an airport in Kenner. As if they needed more water...

pedro
09-01-2005, 05:09 PM
They need to replace the mayor with Rudy Giuliani. :beerme:

Not to knock Rudy, but I get the impression that the officials in NO are doing everything they can. As far as a relief effort this absolutely dwarfs anything Rudy had to deal with regarding 9/11. I honestly don't know what Rudy would be doing that would make anythng any different down there.

WVRed
09-01-2005, 05:15 PM
CNN showing a steady rain coming down at an airport in Kenner. As if they needed more water...

This water is drinkable, right?

It might help cool things off too.

RBA
09-01-2005, 05:17 PM
They need to replace the mayor with Rudy Giuliani. :beerme:

I thought we weren't playing the blame game?

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 05:27 PM
This water is drinkable, right?

It might help cool things off too.

Yeah. If the rain doesn't amount to much then it could be a plus. But... they don't need a heavy rain storm. The city is under enough water as it is.

traderumor
09-01-2005, 05:28 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/

It's so desperate at the convention center. I can't watch it without being in tears. I can't turn it off.I am always quick to defend authorities when they are being criticized, but this is inexcusable. Just totally utterly inexcusable. Those babies, I just want to go home and hold mine right now :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

RBA
09-01-2005, 05:32 PM
House Speaker: Rebuilding N.O. doesn't make sense

Thursday, 2:55 p.m.

By Bill Walsh
Washington bureau

WASHINGTON - House Speaker Dennis Hastert dropped a bombshell on flood-ravaged New Orleans on Thursday by suggesting that it isn’t sensible to rebuild the city.

"It doesn't make sense to me," Hastert told the Daily Herald in suburban Chicago in editions published today. "And it's a question that certainly we should ask."

Hastert's comments came as Congress cut short its summer recess and raced back to Washington to take up an emergency aid package expected to be $10 billion or more. Details of the legislation are still emerging, but it is expected to target critical items such as buses to evacuate the city, reinforcing existing flood protection and providing food and shelter for a growing population of refugees.

The Illinois Republican’s comments drew an immediate rebuke from Louisiana officials.

“That’s like saying we should shut down Los Angeles because it’s built in an earthquake zone,” former Sen. John Breaux, D-La., said. “Or like saying that after the Great Chicago fire of 1871, the U.S. government should have just abandoned the city.”

Hastert said that he supports an emergency bailout, but raised questions about a long-term rebuilding effort. As the most powerful voice in the Republican-controlled House, Hastert is in a position to block any legislation that he opposes.

"We help replace, we help relieve disaster," Hastert said. "But I think federal insurance and everything that goes along with it... we ought to take a second look at that."

The speaker’s comments were in stark contrast to those delivered by President Bush during an appearance this morning on ABC’s “Good Morning America.”

“I want the people of New Orleans to know that after rescuing them and stabilizing the situation, there will be plans in place to help this great city get back on its feet,” Bush said. “There is no doubt in my mind that New Orleans is going to rise up again as a great city.”

Insurance industry executives estimated that claims from the storm could range up to $19 billion. Rebuilding the city, which is more than 80 percent submerged, could cost tens of billions of dollars more, experts projected.

Hastert questioned the wisdom of rebuilding a city below sea level that will continue to be in the path of powerful hurricanes.

"You know we build Los Angeles and San Francisco on top of earthquake issures and they rebuild, too. Stubbornness," he said.

Hastert wasn't the only one questioning the rebuilding of New Orleans. The Waterbury, Conn., Republican-American newspaper wrote an editorial Wednesday entitled, "Is New Orleans worth reclaiming?"

"Americans' hearts go out to the people in Katrina's path," it said. "But if the people of New Orleans and other low-lying areas insist on living in harm's way, they ought to accept responsibility for what happens to them and their property."

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Blimpie
09-01-2005, 05:34 PM
I do. It would be much easier if the forces needed to quell the situation didn't have to come from as far away as Ohio. It would have been nice to start preparing them before Wednesday. It is pretty well documented that the City of New Orleans would be devastated by a Hurricane of this magnitude. Those that coordinate efforts at the national level (government staff and military) didn't seem to think ahead. Notice I am not blaming the President, but like many of the other contemporary issues we face, he is not entirely blameless in this.Okay. The hurricane came ashore on Monday morning, right? Where was it mentioned that the government waited 48 hours to "start preparing" as you so phrase it?

It's really easy to play Monday morning quarterback with situations like these. I just think everybody needs to remember that it is extremely hard to prepare for something that has never happened before. In the history of recorded meterological events, there has never once been another storm leave such a deadly combination of devastation (with both category 5 winds and lethal storm surge) on any coastline before. Ever.

In 1992, my company did an emergency case study regarding the reliability of the remaining cell phone towers that were positioned in Homestead, FL after Hurricane Andrew. Roughly two weeks after the storm, I personally stood in Homestead and wept. While the cleanup efforts had gone on round the clock for ten days straight, the scope of the devastation was still horrific.

My only point is that the community of Miami and it's entrusted officials were then--and still are today--highly experienced in the art of the hurricane. Far more knowledgeable were they in 1992 than was the city of New Orleans even in 2005. The Miami-Dade community thought they had a plan, too. They were wrong and people died. Sometimes the best laid plans are, indeed, laid to rest.

I dunno. I guess I'm just a "glass-half-full" kinda cat. Everytime I hear a report about a "refugee" getting off a hip shot on an ambulance driver or a helicopter pilot, I just wonder if they would like to point out which floating roof they would like to be returned to....

Unassisted
09-01-2005, 05:36 PM
There are now 50,000 to 60,000 people waiting for evacuation at the Superdome. People have come out of office builidings and hotels to attempt to join the evacuation to the Astrodome. The problem is the Astrodome has offered to take 25,000 refugees. I had heard this morning that the Astrodome had 40,000 cots - so I'm surprised that they're limiting their intake to 25,000 people.

San Antonio is preparing a 325,000 sq. ft. warehouse to take in refugees at the former Kelly AFB. There's a lot of coordination to do, since it's not air-conditioned and will need portable toilets.

I think there are similar efforts underway in Austin and some other Texas cities.

traderumor
09-01-2005, 05:37 PM
Hey Hastert,

SHUT UP! JUST SHUT UP NOW!

ochre
09-01-2005, 05:46 PM
I work for the Ohio National Guard and Wednesday morning is when we first started working on sending folks down there.

The reactions created in the levee systems were not unexpected. The government breakdowns have been on multiple levels. It looks to me, from my seat as an IT planner for the Ohio National Guard, that immediately after September 11th the national (guard) focus was to develop Continuity of Operations (COOP) plans and infrastructure. As that date fades deeper into memory, I think people have rationalized that disasters of that scale are so rare that we can't afford to implement infrastructure solutions to account for the level of damage. Every conference I have been to I have repeatedly beaten the COOP drum ad nauseum. People do not care. Well, I should say they do not care until the September 12ths and August 30ths.

While I was not all that worried about looting, I would have very little problem with rolling AH-64s through there to unload on some of these gangs of armed renegades.

Unassisted
09-01-2005, 05:49 PM
House Speaker: Rebuilding N.O. doesn't make senseI have to admit that I expected some of this. I saw Louisiana's US Sen. Mary Landrieu tell reporters at a news conference yesterday that her office was putting together an aid package with a "really big number" of dollars in the request. She emphasized the "number" aspect of the pending legislation so intensely and zealously that it felt more like she was intending to take advantage of the opportunity to bring home some pork rather than to help the suffering and rebuild the state. Her Republican counterpart's remarks were noticeably less focused on the "number" aspect.

I feel sorry for Louisiana, but I don't want to hand the state a blank check.

CrackerJack
09-01-2005, 05:55 PM
Okay. The hurricane came ashore on Monday morning, right? Where was it mentioned that the government waited 48 hours to "start preparing" as you so phrase it?

It's really easy to play Monday morning quarterback with situations like these. I just think everybody needs to remember that it is extremely hard to prepare for something that has never happened before. In the history of recorded meterological events, there has never once been another storm leave such a deadly combination of devastation (with both category 5 winds and lethal storm surge) on any coastline before. Ever.

In 1992, my company did an emergency case study regarding the reliability of the remaining cell phone towers that were positioned in Homestead, FL after Hurricane Andrew. Roughly two weeks after the storm, I personally stood in Homestead and wept. While the cleanup efforts had gone on round the clock for ten days straight, the scope of the devastation was still horrific.

My only point is that the community of Miami and it's entrusted officials were then--and still are today--highly experienced in the art of the hurricane. Far more knowledgeable were they in 1992 than was the city of New Orleans even in 2005. The Miami-Dade community thought they had a plan, too. They were wrong and people died. Sometimes the best laid plans are, indeed, laid to rest.

I dunno. I guess I'm just a "glass-half-full" kinda cat. Everytime I hear a report about a "refugee" getting off a hip shot on an ambulance driver or a helicopter pilot, I just wonder if they would like to point out which floating roof they would like to be returned to....


It's sad you are taking the case of a few looters and applying it to tens of thousands of people. And they knew this was a Cat 4 hurricane TWO DAYS before it hit. They KNEW the potential it could have on a major city. Why is that so hard to acknowledge for you?

I just talked to someone who talked to a local Marine who is heading down there with his local division, TODAY, and they had to borrow a back-up generator because all of their's were in IRAQ! They got the order TODAY, not several days ago - there's an example for you.

There is no excuse for not having adequate ships, helicopters and adequate troops readied and waiting to move in the minute the hurricane passed through, none. It's pathetic.

They knew of it's strength and path two days before it happened. Our own president was chopping wood and taking another vacation during the whole thing - I find his indifference appalling and disgusting just like the rest of the sleazebags in DC...sorry that's how I feel. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of people I know dying in Iraq, sick of our ignorant administration that cuts federal funding to fix the levee in the first place, and sick of people making excuses for a government that puts it's material and foreign interests before our own country's.

Please just let it go I made my point and that'll be that - if you don't agree fine, please lay-off the personal pot shots too. (regarding the "you should go back to sleep" comment - whatever that meant)

Caveat Emperor
09-01-2005, 05:56 PM
House Speaker: Rebuilding N.O. doesn't make sense
WASHINGTON - House Speaker Dennis Hastert dropped a bombshell on flood-ravaged New Orleans on Thursday by suggesting that it isn’t sensible to rebuild the city.

"It doesn't make sense to me," Hastert told the Daily Herald in suburban Chicago in editions published today. "And it's a question that certainly we should ask."

To be saying this while there are people in the City suffering...I cannot wish enough pain and suffering on this man. I recognize that there is an ever-growing likelyhood that New Orleans may never be rebuilt as a major American city...but to come right out and say it while people are suffering is unacceptable.

Politicians too often forget that, in times like these, they are supposed to be the cheerleaders that make Americans feel better. They are leaders, and supposed to be the people we look to for guidance and strength following a natural disaster like this (or a terrorist attack in 2001). There shouldn't be finger pointing, there shouldn't be snide comments stating that teh city should just be razed to the ground...there should just be 4 words coming out of every one of their mealey mouthes: "How can I help?"

Saying that they aren't going to rebuild New Orleans undercuts the great work being done right now by police and firefighters who are RISKING THEIR LIVES to protect the people in New Orleans as well as the buildings on fire and the property being looted by the opportunistic scumbags. Dennis Hastert is telling every rescue worker that might be compelled to volunteer and go down to help in New Orleans that their contributions are worthless.

Coming out like this, there's just one word for it: Anti American. Maybe I'm blinded by my love for the city, but this is just beyond awful as far as I'm concerned.

Blimpie
09-01-2005, 05:57 PM
I work for the Ohio National Guard and Wednesday morning is when we first started working on sending folks down there.

The reactions created in the levee systems were not unexpected. The government breakdowns have been on multiple levels. It looks to me, from my seat as an IT planner for the Ohio National Guard, that immediately after September 11th the national (guard) focus was to develop Continuity of Operations (COOP) plans and infrastructure. As that date fades deeper into memory, I think people have rationalized that disasters of that scale are so rare that we can't afford to implement infrastructure solutions to account for the level of damage. Every conference I have been to I have repeatedly beaten the COOP drum ad nauseum. People do not care. Well, I should say they do not care until the September 12ths and August 30ths.

While I was not all that worried about looting, I would have very little problem with rolling AH-64s through there to unload on some of these gangs of armed renegades.Ochre, I sincerely appreciate the position from which your point of view is unique. I just personally feel that it is impossible to plan for every single contingency that could arise from any given catastrophe. There will always be circumstances that were unforseen even by those deemed to be the most qualified experts. That's just the nature of planning, in general.

It is how we deal with the curveballs that define us as a people. Our ingenuity has always been what separates us from others. Personally, I take pride in that. May God bless every last person that is trapped and in peril right now. Watching these videos makes some people think that the survivors are being given no chance at survival because our government simply doesn't care enough. That's hogwash.

RedsBaron
09-01-2005, 06:01 PM
Hey Hastert,

SHUT UP! JUST SHUT UP NOW!
I second the motion.

CrackerJack
09-01-2005, 06:03 PM
This just shouldn't be happening in a major US city in 2005 IMO:

From Yahoo News:


Keshia Gray, a 28-year-old resident, said buses passed by the center but didn't take anybody. A woman was about to give birth but could not get a lift from police.

Inside the hall, the situation became more horrific by the hour, Gray said.

"People were dying off. There were people shooting, fights broke out, the bathrooms were all clogged up and there was no water," she said. "Then the police started shooting. I couldn't stay in there."

Survivors said they saw the bodies of people shot dead lying in front of the convention center. An atmosphere of death and foreboding set in among the throng waiting to be evacuated while Mayor Ray Nagin issued a "desperate SOS" for help.

"We got dead bodies sitting next to us for days," said Thomas Jessie, a 31-year-old roofer. "I feel like I am going to die. People are going to kill you for water."

None of the victims could fathom what was taking so long to re-establish order and speed relief in one of the country's worst natural disasters which had been forecast in advance.

"This is America, I don't understand the lack of communications between the authorities and the people," Jessie said. "It's disgusting. We feel we have been forgotten."

Residents said hundreds of looters roamed the streets, including one group that used a forklift truck to break into a store. They reported a spate of carjackings and armed robberies.

But some of the National Guardsmen were unarmed. Murray, the Louisiana corrections officer had a gun tucked into her waist and a bulletproof vest but felt distinctly uneasy.

"They (the criminals) probably have more people in the street with guns than we do," said the pony-tailed Murray. "We are outgunned."

ochre
09-01-2005, 06:27 PM
(hopefully the armed mobs don't read this board, but here goes)
typically Guardsmen, while they may be carrying weapons, do not have any ammunition for said weapons in these natural disaster issues. I heard this afternoon that that will be changing for this one, but keep that in mind.

MPs are an exception to that, but they are largely unavailable due to prior commitments.

Caveat Emperor
09-01-2005, 06:37 PM
MPs are an exception to that, but they are largely unavailable due to prior commitments.

Gee...now, I wonder where all the MPs went... :rolleyes:

Reds Nd2
09-01-2005, 06:52 PM
typically Guardsmen, while they may be carrying weapons, do not have any ammunition for said weapons in these natural disaster issues.

I think that may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What would be the purpose of trained guardsmen carrying unloaded weapons? If the situation doesn't call for an armed response, then don't carry weapons. :confused:

EDIT: I didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling you dumb or anything.

ochre
09-01-2005, 07:01 PM
I think that may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What would be the purpose of trained guardsmen carrying unloaded weapons? If the situation doesn't call for an armed response, then don't carry weapons. :confused:

EDIT: I didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling you dumb or anything.
I am not personally aware of exactly when this became the MO. Its possible it could be just an Ohio thing. I would say it is most likely a result of the whole Kent State thing. There are exceptions to it. I think Lucasville, for example, but again, those might have just been MPs.

RBA
09-01-2005, 07:22 PM
I just tried to call a troop that was sent out yesterday to Houston for the relief effort via her cell phone. Apparently she must be near ground zero, because the recorded message said that "due to the Hurricane the call cannot go throught". She is Air Force ANG Security Forces (equilivant to MP in the Army). Her and her husband are there, their kids are back in El Paso.

Reds Nd2
09-01-2005, 07:29 PM
I am not personally aware of exactly when this became the MO. Its possible it could be just an Ohio thing. I would say it is most likely a result of the whole Kent State thing. There are exceptions to it. I think Lucasville, for example, but again, those might have just been MPs.

It just baffles me that they would carry unloaded weapons, especially when they have less than lethal options to choose from if the situation calls for it. Whatever the reasons are, I'm glad they decided to change protocol for this deployment. Hopefully though, they won't be forced to use lethal force in Louisiana.

Anyway, it's a bit of usefull information in case I should one day find myself as part of an armed mob. :)

ochre
09-01-2005, 08:42 PM
Interesting link those of you with Tulane ties might be interested in:
http://www.emergency.tulane.edu/

Caseyfan21
09-01-2005, 08:56 PM
It's sad you are taking the case of a few looters and applying it to tens of thousands of people. And they knew this was a Cat 4 hurricane TWO DAYS before it hit. They KNEW the potential it could have on a major city. Why is that so hard to acknowledge for you?

I just talked to someone who talked to a local Marine who is heading down there with his local division, TODAY, and they had to borrow a back-up generator because all of their's were in IRAQ! They got the order TODAY, not several days ago - there's an example for you.

There is no excuse for not having adequate ships, helicopters and adequate troops readied and waiting to move in the minute the hurricane passed through, none. It's pathetic.

I don't think there was a real need for Marines in NO until yesterday when a lot of the widespread looting really began to happen. Sure, it was a terrible situation with a lot of devastation, but there was no lawbreaking to the point of needing Marines and other military there. That would have not been smart to mobilize a bunch of military over the weekend just to come in for the relief efforts. Imagine if we chose to do that and then there was a massive terrorist attack on one of our military bases due to lots of personnel being down there. Imagine if widespread looting never began, then everyone would just be whining about how we are wasting troops down there when regular volunteers could aid in the relief efforts. Say what you want, but no one could have seen what happened coming, hindsight is always 20/20.



They knew of it's strength and path two days before it happened. Our own president was chopping wood and taking another vacation during the whole thing - I find his indifference appalling and disgusting just like the rest of the sleazebags in DC...sorry that's how I feel. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of people I know dying in Iraq, sick of our ignorant administration that cuts federal funding to fix the levee in the first place, and sick of people making excuses for a government that puts it's material and foreign interests before our own country's.

Please just let it go I made my point and that'll be that - if you don't agree fine, please lay-off the personal pot shots too. (regarding the "you should go back to sleep" comment - whatever that meant)


I think others will stop potshots if you stop making personal potshots on the President. I have been careful in my post to not take any personal potshots because I do think that is a little low. However, several of your last posts have been direct potshots at our President. Seems kind of contradictory.

I don't think our President has shown any indifference and I don't know how anything that has happened in NO can directly be his fault. I don't see what else he could have done to help NO anymore, he cut his vacation short when the enormity of this tragedy began to come through. It's not like he should rush back to Washington just because a hurricane might come through. He kept an eye on the situation and came right back immediately when it started to become known what had happened.

Also, please leave Iraq out of this. You have reason to blame the President in Iraq but no basis to blame him for this natural disaster. Iraq is a totally different monster and should not be brought up in a thread related to NO, it's not fair to all those that have lost everything.

I'm sorry for this strong response, but I just feel too strongly that no blame can be put on our President, especially when you have taken several shots at him in multiple posts in this thread. Please excuse me, I really didn't want to make a personal attack here, I just have been really irked reading the things blaming GWB for this natural disaster. Sorry to hijack the thread for this post but I felt like something had to be said in response.

CrackerJack
09-01-2005, 08:59 PM
Bottom of Yahoo headline story:


Donald Dudley, a 55-year-old New Orleans seafood merchant, complained that when he and other hungry refugees broke into the kitchen of the convention center and tried to prepare food, the National Guard chased them away.

"They pulled guns and told us we had to leave that kitchen or they would blow our damn brains out," he said. "We don't want their help. Give us some vehicles and we'll get ourselves out of here!"



Only in America do disaster victims demand their own vehicles to escape.

CrackerJack
09-01-2005, 09:08 PM
I'm sorry for this strong response, but I just feel too strongly that no blame can be put on our President, especially when you have taken several shots at him in multiple posts in this thread. Please excuse me, I really didn't want to make a personal attack here, I just have been really irked reading the things blaming GWB for this natural disaster. Sorry to hijack the thread for this post but I felt like something had to be said in response.

No problem.

Public figures are fair game though, always have been, ecspecially politicians whom we elect. I'm just not going to censor myself on this subject, don't take it personally.

ochre
09-01-2005, 09:12 PM
Of course people aren't blaming the president for this natural disaster. The fact that the national guard is so heavily deployed is part of the equation though. Having said that, there are many levels and offices of government (state and federal) that are culpable in this case. The true tragedy here has been the slow response time to getting large quantities of people the basic human sustenance they require. I can't see blaming the President for that, but it is definitely something that Government has to provide their citizens. As RFS has pointed out, these people trapped there now (at this stage, who cares why they didn't leave) are so desperate and so confused and have been so ill informed as to what was being done to help them that they essentially dropped down the the raw basic animal survival slice of Maslow's heirarchy of needs.

RFS62
09-01-2005, 09:22 PM
It's no surprise to me that FEMA is getting hammered.

People are expecting a government agency to act creatively and change course on the spot. It's a federal bureaucracy. It simply isn't set up that way. The fact that it's adapted to the degree that it already has is amazing, and a direct reflection of tremendous pressure from the top. The press has been brutal, and the video coming out of New Orleans is reminisent of the first time we saw footage of the Viet Nam war for its shock value and raw power.

We're watching women and children, the elderly and sick, the weak and helpless... all of them... being tortured and dying on our TV screens. People walking through chest deep polluted water for miles, stories of alligators and snakes, looting, gangs..... if you saw a movie like this you'd never believe it could be possible. But there it is, on the news all day long.

The fact that they've moved as many people as they have in three days is historic, actually. After Monday, most people, media included, thought the city had dodged a bullet.

The great lesson from this is that you have to mobilize the national guard immediately and air drop supplies in several areas, and get the people there. But this lesson that seems so obvious now, wasn't anticipated in advance. And three days, a lifetime of misery for the residents of New Orleans, is nothing in government time.

FEMA is full of dedicated public servants. It's also glutted with people who would be mearly mediocre in the private sector. I worked for FEMA for three years at the start of my career. The post office is like Delta Force compared to many FEMA staffers. They aren't engineered for fast movement, outside the box, outside the SOP thinking.

They always have been a bureaucracy, and they always will be. There wasn't a form to fill out to change the SOP and drop that water. It took an order from the top.

CrackerJack
09-01-2005, 10:48 PM
Found this comment interesting on the Interdictor blog:


The Iberville Housing Projects got pissed off because the police started to "shop" after they kicked out looters. Then they started shooting at cops. When the cops left, the looters looted everything. There's probably not a grocery left in this city.

CrackerJack
09-01-2005, 11:05 PM
This is just sad:


About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at the convention center to await buses grew increasingly hostile. Police Chief Eddie Compass said he sent in 88 officers to quell the situation at the building, but they were quickly beaten back by an angry mob.

"We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon."

OnBaseMachine
09-01-2005, 11:06 PM
Fats Domino has been found, he was rescued Monday after spending hours on his roof awaiting help. Ain't that a shame. Authorities first checked Blueberry Hill to avail in an attempt to rescue him.

:)


(CNN) -- Rock 'n' roll pioneer Fats Domino was among the thousands of New Orleans residents plucked from rising floodwaters, his daughter said Thursday.

Karen Domino White, who lives in New Jersey, identified her father in a picture taken Monday night by a New Orleans Times-Picayune photographer.

The photograph shows Domino -- the singer behind the 1950s hits "Ain't That a Shame" and "Blueberry Hill" -- being helped off a boat near his home in the city's Lower 9th Ward.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/09/01/katrina.fats.domino/

MWM
09-01-2005, 11:15 PM
Did I read that right? Did that say "tourists?"

jmcclain19
09-01-2005, 11:19 PM
Great column this afternoon by Ron Fournier of the AP
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050901/D8CBNMA88.html


By RON FOURNIER

WASHINGTON (AP) - At every turn, political leaders failed Katrina's victims. They didn't strengthen the levees. They ceded the streets to marauding looters. They left dead bodies to rot or bloat. Thousands suffered or died for lack of water, food and hope. Who's at fault?

There's plenty of blame to go around - the White House, Congress, federal agencies, local governments, police and even residents of the Gulf Coast who refused orders to evacuate. But all the finger-pointing misses the point: Politicians and the people they lead too often ignore danger signs until a crisis hits.

It wasn't a secret that levees built to keep New Orleans from flooding could not withstand a major hurricane, but government leaders never found the money to fully shore up the network of earthen, steel and concrete barriers.

Both the Bush and Clinton administrations proposed budgets that low-balled the needs. Local politicians grabbed whatever money they could and declared victory. And the public didn't exactly demand tax increases to pay for flood-control and hurricane-protection projects.

Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request.

Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.

How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere - and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics.

Alaska is represented by Republican Rep. Don Young, chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and Republican Sen. Ted Stevens, a senior member of the all-important Senate Appropriations Committee. Louisiana's delegation holds far less sway.

Once the hurricane hit, relief trickled into the Gulf Coast. Even Federal Emergency Management Agency director Michael Brown, whose agency is in charge of disaster response, pronounced the initial results unacceptable.

The hurricane was the first major test of FEMA since it became part of the Homeland Security Department, a massive new bureaucracy that many feared would make the well-respected FEMA another sluggish federal agency.

Looting soon broke out as local police stood by. Some police didn't want to stop people from getting badly needed food and water. Others seemed to be overwhelmed. Thousands of National Guard troops were ordered to the Gulf Coast, but their ranks have been drastically thinned by the war in Iraq.

On top of all this, Katrina is one of the worst natural disasters ever to hit the United States. The best leaders running the most efficient agencies would have been sharply challenged.

"Look at all they've had to deal with," former President Clinton told CNN shortly after joining former President Bush on a fundraising campaign for hurricane relief. "I'm telling you, nobody every thought it would happen like this."

That's not true. Experts had predicted for years that a major hurricane would eventually hit New Orleans, swamping the levees and filling the bowl-shaped city with polluted water. The politicians are doing what they do in time of crisis - shifting the blame.

"The truth will speak for itself," Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., said of potential lapses by government. Later, her office blamed the White House for budget cuts.

If it's not the Republicans' fault, perhaps some in Washington would like to blame New Orleans itself. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., questioned whether a city that lies below sea level should be rebuilt. "That doesn't make sense to me," he said.

But for anybody living - or dying - in the devastated region, there are far too many villains to name.

"We're out here like pure animals. We don't have help," the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center.

Robin Lovin, ethics professor at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, said it's too convenient to blame one branch of government when they are all, at some level, failing people. From Watergate to Clinton's impeachment, governmental institutions have disappointed the public.

"Bush, Congress, the mayor - each of them are symptoms of a bigger problem, that we don't have accountability for disasters or challenges of this scale," Lovin said. "That's all the public wants in trying times - accountability."

Thus, Americans are doing what people do when government lets them down - they're turning to each other. Donations are pouring into charities. Internet sites are being used to find relatives. Residents of far-off states are opening their homes to victims.

The community spirit is reminiscent of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. So is the second-guessing. It will happen again after the next crisis. You've heard the warnings: a cataclysmic California earthquake, another terrorist strike, a flu pandemic, a nuclear plant meltdown, a tsunami, the failure to address mounting U.S. debt - and on and on.

Will the public and its leaders be better prepared next time?

WVRed
09-01-2005, 11:40 PM
Wow.


Living like animals
Posted: 1:07 p.m. ET
CNN's Chris Lawrence in New Orleans, Louisiana

It's hard to believe this is New Orleans.

We spent the last few hours at the New Orleans Convention Center. There are thousands of people lying in the street. (See the video of people living among the dead -- 4:36 )

We saw mothers holding babies, some of them just three, four and five months old, living in horrible conditions. Diapers littered the ground. Feces were on the ground. Sewage was spilled all around.

These people are being forced to live like animals. When you look at the mothers, your heart just breaks.

Some of the images we have gathered are very, very graphic.

We saw dead bodies. People are dying at the center and there is no one to get them. We saw a grandmother in a wheelchair pushed up to the wall and covered with a sheet. Right next to her was another dead body wrapped in a white sheet.

Right in front of us a man went into a seizure on the ground. No one here has medical training. There is nowhere to evacuate these people to.

People have been sitting there without food and water and waiting. They are asking -- "When are the buses coming? When are they coming to help us?"

We just had to say we don't know.

The people tell us that National Guard units have come by as a show of force. They have tossed some military rations out. People are eating potato chips to survive and are looting some of the stores nearby for food and drink. It is not the kind of food these people need.

They are saying, "Don't leave us here to die. We are stuck here. Why can't they send the buses? Are they going to leave us here to die?"

RBA
09-02-2005, 12:40 AM
September 2, 2005
A Can't-Do Government

By PAUL KRUGMAN (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/paulkrugman/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New Orleans. "The New Orleans hurricane scenario," The Houston Chronicle wrote in December 2001, "may be the deadliest of all." It described a potential catastrophe very much like the one now happening.

So why were New Orleans and the nation so unprepared? After 9/11, hard questions were deferred in the name of national unity, then buried under a thick coat of whitewash. This time, we need accountability.

First question: Why have aid and security taken so long to arrive? Katrina hit five days ago - and it was already clear by last Friday that Katrina could do immense damage along the Gulf Coast. Yet the response you'd expect from an advanced country never happened. Thousands of Americans are dead or dying, not because they refused to evacuate, but because they were too poor or too sick to get out without help - and help wasn't provided. Many have yet to receive any help at all.

There will and should be many questions about the response of state and local governments; in particular, couldn't they have done more to help the poor and sick escape? But the evidence points, above all, to a stunning lack of both preparation and urgency in the federal government's response.

Even military resources in the right place weren't ordered into action. "On Wednesday," said an editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss. (http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/special_packages/hurricane_katrina/12526270.htm), "reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics. Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!"

Maybe administration officials believed that the local National Guard could keep order and deliver relief. But many members of the National Guard and much of its equipment - including high-water vehicles - are in Iraq. "The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission," a Louisiana Guard officer told reporters several weeks ago.

Second question: Why wasn't more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. "The corps," an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, "never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain."

In 2002 the corps' chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration's proposed cuts in the corps' budget, including flood-control spending.

Third question: Did the Bush administration destroy FEMA's effectiveness? The administration has, by all accounts, treated the emergency management agency like an unwanted stepchild, leading to a mass exodus of experienced professionals.

Last year James Lee Witt, who won bipartisan praise for his leadership of the agency during the Clinton years, said at a Congressional hearing: "I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared."

I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying.

E-mail: krugman@nytimes.com

Thomas L. Friedman is on vacation.

RBA
09-02-2005, 12:47 AM
Anderson Cooper calls out Sen. Mary Laundreau

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Anderson-Cooper-Landrieu-Katrina.mov

RFS62
09-02-2005, 01:09 AM
The American public will not tolerate another day of the kind of pictures that have been coming out of New Orleans today. And they shouldn't.

It's a national disgrace.

RFS62
09-02-2005, 01:31 AM
I am ashamed right now. I am ashamed at the abject failure at the top of the chain of command.

Do you know how hot it is on a composition roof in New Orleans in August? I've climbed thousands of them, and it's so hot that if you put your hand down on the shingles as you get back on the ladder you'll likely get a blister. The thought that women and children and the elderly are sitting on these roofs in the savage New Orleans heat for three days as their best option, their only way to stay out of the rancid, chemical and sewage infested water up to their gutter line.... this sickens me.

The idea that thousands upon thousands of the poorest and most vulnerable element of this destitute and whipped down city have to slog through waist deep water, for miles.... just to get where the government told them to go... and they get there and can't even get a freakin' drink of water..... for THREE DAYS!!!! ..... I'm mad and sickened beyond belief.

I voted for President Bush. The idea that he isn't ranting and raving and pounding his fist on his desk RIGHT NOW and demanding that everyone involved get out there and get these people some food and water SICKENS ME!!!!!

This is not what the disaster relief community is about. The people there are doing the best they can. They're working 18 hours a day, catching whatever sleep they can, and getting up and doing it again the next day. It's not their fault. This is a failure of upper management to immediately get the most precious commodity, water, to these people. Is it possible that the general public understands this from watching it on MSNBC better than the White House?

Don't tell me that we can't commandeer trucks and bottled water and convoy them into the heart of the city. Don't tell me this is what we are about in America.

Puffy
09-02-2005, 01:40 AM
I voted for President Bush.

Don't worry - none of us are perfect.

:mooner:

Redsfaithful
09-02-2005, 01:48 AM
I just can't understand why they'd suspend rescue operations because a military helicopter was taking fire.

It's a military helicopter. MILITARY. Performing a very military like operation (search and rescue). And they're going to be pulled out because they're taking fire? Something the military is trained to deal with?

Our military can take fire in Iraq to help "save" Iraqi citizens, but it can't take fire in the US to save US citizens? Excuse me, but WTF?

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 01:53 AM
11:29 P.M. - (AP): Col. Henry Whitehorn, chief of the Louisiana State Police, said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers - many of whom from flooded areas - turning in their badges.

"They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Whitehorn said.

11:08 P.M. - CNN reports that the Astrodome in Houston has shut its doors and will no longer accept refugees.

10:49 P.M. - (AP): Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declared war on looters as 300 National Guard troops landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will," she said.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html


TOKYO (Reuters) - A powerful typhoon churning toward Japan's Okinawa islands strengthened by Friday to a Class Five storm -- technically the same strength as Hurricane Katrina, which devastated New Orleans -- and experts said it could also threaten Japan's southernmost main island.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/wl_nm/weather_japan_typhoon_dc_1

WVRedsFan
09-02-2005, 02:05 AM
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050902/wl_nm/weather_japan_typhoon_dc_1

Holy crap...

Cedric
09-02-2005, 02:17 AM
Nobody is to blame for this. It's what they do now that matters. You can predict and train for something like this and you just have no chance. Natural disasters are terrible and everyone is doing their best to help those people, but expecting it to be good or even near perfect is just insane. People somehow think that just because it's 2005 that this country and the world is somehow not vulnerable to mother nature, this should teach people that we are always in danger. A friggin comet could come tommorow and wipe us and our small existence out, we aren't important.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 02:26 AM
Does anyone know if its raining in New Orleans? They were talking on MSNBC just now about how some are afraid the flooding will get worse because of the rain that is either currently falling or is about to fall. I was in another room and only heard half of it. :dunno:

MSNBC just showed new video from around the NO Convention Center. That place is in bad, bad shape. There are dead bodies everywhere, people are in dire need of water food and medicine, there have been reports of women being raped. Groups of people were chanting "We need HELP", we need HELP" into the camera.

savafan
09-02-2005, 02:34 AM
I'm growing increasingly displeased with the fact it's now mid-Thursday and thousands of people in the stadium are still living in pools of their own feces. No wonder they're shooting at helicopters and turning to desperate, criminal behavior. And let's not focus on the fact that's occuring - sure it's absolutely wrong, but it could've been avoided had this been planned for and handled properly.

It's disgusting that we treat our own citizenary this way.

I could go on a big rant but I'm sure people will poo-poo me for daring to criticize the idiot that is our president for almost single-handedly letting this happen by not supporting levee re-construction. And the spreading our troops so thin they can't even respond to this (for whatever reason) in a timely manner before people are living in the most dispicable conditions and literally dying because of it.

This is the kind of thing that makes me want to burn my flag in my front yard - I hate our government and I hate the way they treat Americans and how we always come 2nd to their own special interests abroad.

I am just glad that there's a growing sentiment amongst people in their 20's and 30's like me who are increasingly waking up and realizing what we've let our government do to us as Americans.

Enough politicizing and people can go back to complaining about the looters taking TV sets I guess.

But i hope they get these folks out of there by tonight.

I voted for Bush, and I applaud you. I'm speechless at how this has been handled, and the indifference that I'm seeing from the President toward the people who have suffered from this tragedy. If only we could convince that New Orleans had WMD's, he may send in troops to help.

I feel for the plight of Iraq, although I don't think we should be there, but in times of national crisis the focus should be on our own country and our own citizenry.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 02:42 AM
Fats Domino is still missing - his daughter says she saw him being rescued on TV - but no one has heard from him since.


Blues musician Fats Domino was rescued from New Orleans shortly after Hurricane Katrina hit, reports say.

His daughter Keren Domino White told CNN she had seen her father being helped off a rooftop in a newspaper photograph taken on Monday.

But Ms White said she had not been able to contact her father since then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4206622.stm

savafan
09-02-2005, 03:07 AM
Director of the Kuwaiti Ministry of Endowment's research center, Muhammad Yousef Al-Mlaifi says that Katrina was Allah's vengeance on the US. I'm not even going to post his words here, but if you want to read them, follow the link.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453615.183333333.html

jmcclain19
09-02-2005, 03:42 AM
For anyone who cares, here's an elevation map of NO

It's a massive map from NOLA.com's coverage of a Hurricane a few years ago

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/images/goingunder_jpg.jpg

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 03:53 AM
Joe Scarborough is blasting about every politician ranging from Bush to Governor Blanco.

Scarborough is the man, by the way. I have really enjoyed watching his shows over the last four days or so.

TeamCasey
09-02-2005, 07:36 AM
Did I read that right? Did that say "tourists?"

A lot of tourists got trapped there without being able to get flights out in time. The hotels sounded pretty full.

RedsBaron
09-02-2005, 07:51 AM
Director of the Kuwaiti Ministry of Endowment's research center, Muhammad Yousef Al-Mlaifi says that Katrina was Allah's vengeance on the US. I'm not even going to post his words here, but if you want to read them, follow the link.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453615.183333333.html
But for the United States, if this guy was a Director of a government research center, it would be under Saddam Hussein's Iraq, not Kuwait. Just sayin'

GAC
09-02-2005, 07:57 AM
Director of the Kuwaiti Ministry of Endowment's research center, Muhammad Yousef Al-Mlaifi says that Katrina was Allah's vengeance on the US.

So much for the liberation of Kuwait. :rolleyes:

creek14
09-02-2005, 08:43 AM
There are assets that you people don't even know exist looking for survivors.

RFS62
09-02-2005, 08:55 AM
There are assets that you people don't even know exist looking for survivors.


I'm sure. There are so many things that FEMA has done right on this disaster. So many things. They loaded the supply lines before it came ashore. They were there ahead of time, planning. They did not take it lightly.

And it doesn't take Delta Force to find the thousands of survivors who slogged out of that witches brew to the convention center and the superdome. CNN found them already.

So many things done right. So many people working as hard as they can.

And there are the things done wrong that are so wrong that they're off the charts. And it's not the fault of the people on the ground.

Government time is different than private sector time. It's more like dog years. It's like turning a huge ship vs. a speedboat.

With the basic necessities of life, food and water, we needed some people in speedboats with the authority to get it done immediately. Lives hang in the balance. It's more than property rights.

I guarantee it will be addressed before the next one.

GoReds
09-02-2005, 09:00 AM
Director of the Kuwaiti Ministry of Endowment's research center, Muhammad Yousef Al-Mlaifi says that Katrina was Allah's vengeance on the US. I'm not even going to post his words here, but if you want to read them, follow the link.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453615.183333333.html

So, if the hurricane was Allah's vengeance, then what does he make of the stampede in Iraq?

:rolleyes:

GoReds
09-02-2005, 09:04 AM
And there are the things done wrong that are so wrong that they're off the charts. And it's not the fault of the people on the ground.

Government time is different than private sector time. It's more like dog years. It's like turning a huge ship vs. a speedboat.

With the basic necessities of life, food and water, we needed some people in speedboats with the authority to get it done immediately. Lives hang in the balance. It's more than property rights.

I guarantee it will be addressed before the next one.

I wouldn't make such a bold statement in light of what we are witnessing today. I just wonder if our government agencies haven't become more concerned about how to get additional funds than they are concerned about how to respond to a disaster.

You simply cannot get past the fact that this has all been played out in countless scenarios. The warnings have been there. Several close calls in the last 10 years. And yet, the response by the government has the look and feel of having a 10th grader taking the reigns on his first day on the job.

Redsfaithful
09-02-2005, 09:27 AM
There are assets that you people don't even know exist looking for survivors.

Special ops can't find the convention center?

RFS62
09-02-2005, 09:31 AM
I guess I need to be more clear here. I'm telling you heads will roll over this disgrace. The fact that the hard work of so many people on the ground and all throughout the agency is tarnished by the incredible ineptitude of the directors in charge is disgraceful.

Bush will never, ever let this land on his doorstep. The search and rescue isn't the issue. Getting food and water to the people who already made it out will be the defining image, shown over and over and over again, that will be remembered by the entire world. Letting all those poor people sit there and suffer is what will be remembered, in spite of all the good work being done in every other area of the response.

Heads will roll. And they should.

RBA
09-02-2005, 09:50 AM
You're right RFS62, the Bush Crony, FEMA Director is a disgrace. I can't believe the total lack of knowledge he was spewing yesterday on CNN and at his press conference. His head should Roll.

RFS62
09-02-2005, 10:09 AM
"Unacceptable"

Bush just said the situation is "unacceptable". He's heading out to kick ass and damage control. As well he should.

RBA
09-02-2005, 10:12 AM
"Unacceptable"

Bush just said the situation is "unacceptable". He's heading out to kick ass and damage control. As well he should.

Just 5 days late. Maybe instead of playing the guitar as New Orleans drown, he should of been in the white house doing his job.

Roy Tucker
09-02-2005, 10:14 AM
"Unacceptable"

Bush just said the situation is "unacceptable". He's heading out to kick ass and damage control. As well he should.
Better late than never.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments about FEMA and being government bureaucrats.

A plan will only get you so far. At which time, you have to look around, assess the situation, and get creative. Either that or go thermonuclear.

My comment to Mr. Bush would be "George, we elected your to be our leader. So get your butt out there and lead".

RBA
09-02-2005, 10:16 AM
Yes, "damage control" is abosutely right. He;s trying to control the damage to his presidency and to his administation.

CrackerJack
09-02-2005, 10:29 AM
I always thought the reason FEMA couldn't get in there, is that they had no military support to allow them to.

I would think Bush Jr. should've headed back to DC two days before this was supposed to happen, get his people together, and come up with a plan and go over worst case scenarios, and mobilize ships, aid and enough DoD resources/personnel to secure the city and create aide routes the minute the flooding began and the hurricane passed...not 3 days later.

Instead he was carrying his dog around on his ranch like Dr. Evil and not really sseeming to care what happens to poor people or Americans as usual. To him we are expendible apparently, here at home or in Iraq.

And all of Bush's hollow words dont mean a thing to me. Anyone can get behind a microphone and talk tough and appease the sheeple...too late Mr. Bush, you failed again and so did your federal agencies in responding to one of the, if not the, worst natural disaster in our nation's history.

While it was going on, he was literally chopping wood on his ranch and taking it easy...and this was forecasted.

Unforgiveable.

Unassisted
09-02-2005, 11:09 AM
I caught some of Bush's speech on the radio. What I heard was a lot of future-tense promises. "X will happen." "We will get X to people there."

What I wanted to hear was: "We are doing X." and "I have already made arrangements for X, Y and Z and it's on the ground there."

Where has he been? :thumbdown

RBA
09-02-2005, 11:11 AM
Where has been all our POLITICIANS? DEMOCRATS INCLUDED. THEY WERE ALL AWOL THIS TIME.

savafan
09-02-2005, 11:16 AM
The president was on vacation and congress was in recess. The hurricane had poor timing.

WMR
09-02-2005, 11:16 AM
Nero anyone?

MWM
09-02-2005, 11:18 AM
Fixing problems like New Orleans preparedness doesn't help anyone get elected (until something like this happens which is rare). That's why politicians are AWOL on this.

BTW, how long has the state of Louisiana, the city of New Orleans, and the Federal Government known about this potential disaster and the city's lack of preparation? It seems like this is something that goes well beyond the last few years. This could have happened in 1995 just as easily as it happened in 2005.

RedsBaron
09-02-2005, 11:26 AM
I read in my local paper this morning that Louisiana had had its funding request in Congreess earlier this year cut from something like $100 million to less than $40 million for work on the levees around New Orleans (I'm doing this by memory so I may have the numbers wrong). Meanwhile, given his seniority, Alaska's Ted Stevens was able to get funding, $231 million, for a bridge in Alaska that leads to an uninhabited island.

RBA
09-02-2005, 11:27 AM
The president was on vacation and congress was in recess. The hurricane had poor timing.

Well, when it came to Terri Schiavo, they didn't waste anytime returning and calling a special session over a holiday weekend.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 11:28 AM
Explosions and fires rock New Orleans
September 2, 2005 - 9:39PM

Explosions have been heard and fires have erupted in south-west New Orleans, as authorities battle to restore order after Hurricane Katrina.

The massive explosions rocked the New Orleans riverfront a few kilometres south of the French Quarter, the Press Association (PA) reported.

The cause of the blasts at about 4.35am (1935 AEST) and the extent of any possible damage were not immediately known.

The blasts jolted residents awake, Associated Press (AP) said.

An initial explosion sent flames of red and orange shooting into the pre-dawn sky, it said.

A series of smaller blasts followed, and then acrid, black smoke could be seen even in the dark. The vibrations were felt all the way downtown.

The explosions appeared to originate close to the east bank of the Mississippi River, near a residential area and rail tracks.

At least two police boats were at the scene.

"We're trying to get a hazmat team out there right now," a New Orleans police official told CNN.

He said several railroad cars had blown up and "the main concern right now is what it is".

CNN reporters said they were awoken by a boom and that thick smoke was coming from the explosion.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Explosions-and-fires-rock-New-Orleans/2005/09/02/1125302743625.html


6:58 A.M. - Maestri: Explosions Friday morning were NOT a result of thuggery, but merely gas problems that exploded in Bywater.


8:02 A.M. - (AP) An explosion at a chemical depot jolted residents awake early Friday, illuminating the pre-dawn sky with red and orange flames over a city awash in corpses and under siege from looters. There were no immediate reports of injuries.

Vibrations from the blast along the Mississippi River and a few miles east of the French Quarter were felt all the way downtown. A series of smaller blasts followed and then a cyclone of acrid, black smoke.

To jittery residents of New Orleans, it was yet another fearful sight in a city that has deteriorated rapidly since Katrina slammed ashore Monday morning.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Dom Heffner
09-02-2005, 11:38 AM
"Unacceptable"

Bush just said the situation is "unacceptable". He's heading out to kick ass and damage control. As well he should.

Maybe he'll bring his bullhorn again.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 11:39 AM
Fox News was showing live video of a huge building on fire in downtown New Orleans. Beside that building is a telephone company. They said that building is in danger of catching fire, and part of America could be without phone service if it does.

Hollcat
09-02-2005, 11:55 AM
I just can't understand why they'd suspend rescue operations because a military helicopter was taking fire.

It's a military helicopter. MILITARY. Performing a very military like operation (search and rescue). And they're going to be pulled out because they're taking fire? Something the military is trained to deal with?

Our military can take fire in Iraq to help "save" Iraqi citizens, but it can't take fire in the US to save US citizens? Excuse me, but WTF?

This is as good a post as has ever been posted redsfaithful, I've been banging my head against a wall :bang: wondering the same thing.

The other thing that really bothers me is how the city or state couldn't have done something to get people out of New Orleans. Anyone, especially city officials know damn well that there are thousands of people in any major city that do not have the means to travel and evacuate a city. Why couldn't they have provided city vehicles (buses) to provide people transportation out of the city or activiate state controlled nationa guard troops and vehicles to evacuate people. When I heard they had opened the superdome as a shelter it baffled me how they could order an evacuation and then open a shelter in the area ordered evacuated.

creek14
09-02-2005, 12:12 PM
The military rescue missions did not stop after the shots were fired. They have not stopped since the wind died down enough to fly right after the storm. No matter what CNN and Fox say. What did stop was the personal boat rescues.

The Superdome was designated as a shelter of last resort for those who decided not to evacuate the city after the MANDITORY evacuation order was in place. No one knew how many people would come there since no one could estimate how many would choose to ignore a MANDITORY evacuation order while a Cat 5 storm was heading towards the city.

Have fun with your pissing match.

Blimpie
09-02-2005, 12:20 PM
It's no surprise to me that FEMA is getting hammered.

People are expecting a government agency to act creatively and change course on the spot. It's a federal bureaucracy. It simply isn't set up that way. The fact that it's adapted to the degree that it already has is amazing, and a direct reflection of tremendous pressure from the top. The press has been brutal, and the video coming out of New Orleans is reminisent of the first time we saw footage of the Viet Nam war for its shock value and raw power.

We're watching women and children, the elderly and sick, the weak and helpless... all of them... being tortured and dying on our TV screens. People walking through chest deep polluted water for miles, stories of alligators and snakes, looting, gangs..... if you saw a movie like this you'd never believe it could be possible. But there it is, on the news all day long.

The fact that they've moved as many people as they have in three days is historic, actually. After Monday, most people, media included, thought the city had dodged a bullet.

The great lesson from this is that you have to mobilize the national guard immediately and air drop supplies in several areas, and get the people there. But this lesson that seems so obvious now, wasn't anticipated in advance. And three days, a lifetime of misery for the residents of New Orleans, is nothing in government time.

FEMA is full of dedicated public servants. It's also glutted with people who would be mearly mediocre in the private sector. I worked for FEMA for three years at the start of my career. The post office is like Delta Force compared to many FEMA staffers. They aren't engineered for fast movement, outside the box, outside the SOP thinking.

They always have been a bureaucracy, and they always will be. There wasn't a form to fill out to change the SOP and drop that water. It took an order from the top.Excellent post RFS...thanks for providing us your unique perspective on the situation (FEMA)

RBA
09-02-2005, 12:21 PM
The military rescue missions did not stop after the shots were fired. They have not stopped since the wind died down enough to fly right after the storm. No matter what CNN and Fox say. What did stop was the personal boat rescues.

The Superdome was designated as a shelter of last resort for those who decided not to evacuate the city after the MANDITORY evacuation order was in place. No one knew how many people would come there since no one could estimate how many would choose to ignore a MANDITORY evacuation order while a Cat 5 storm was heading towards the city.

Have fun with your pissing match.

Yes, but did they have the means? Where was the mass mobilization of the CRAF and an order to take every school bus, greyhound, contract bus in New Orleans? Didn't New Orleans have rail? How many people could of got out if Amtrack or Southern Pacific sent some rail cars down there? You are right when the Superdome is a last resort, you would think the whole force of the Federal, State, and local government would be put to bear on the problem. It wasn't.

TeamBoone
09-02-2005, 12:26 PM
The president was on vacation and congress was in recess. The hurricane had poor timing.

Yeah, like they didn't know it was coming. Get your butts back to work with an impending disaster on the horizon.

savafan
09-02-2005, 12:27 PM
Yeah, like they didn't know it was coming. Get your butts back to work with an impending disaster on the horizon.

My statement that the hurricane had poor timing was tongue in cheek. I agree with you TB.

TeamBoone
09-02-2005, 12:29 PM
I know, Sava. I wasn't responding to you per se.

Blimpie
09-02-2005, 12:37 PM
I just can't understand why they'd suspend rescue operations because a military helicopter was taking fire.

It's a military helicopter. MILITARY. Performing a very military like operation (search and rescue). And they're going to be pulled out because they're taking fire? Something the military is trained to deal with?

Our military can take fire in Iraq to help "save" Iraqi citizens, but it can't take fire in the US to save US citizens? Excuse me, but WTF?Exactly what I thought last night. Any combat pilot worth his/her salt can maneuver through brutal assaults from enemies during their missions. These people that are firing at the copters are dead wrong to do so; but, it's not exactly like they are firing RPGs or Stinger missiles...

Blimpie
09-02-2005, 12:41 PM
10:49 P.M. - (AP): Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco declared war on looters as 300 National Guard troops landed in New Orleans fresh from duty in Iraq. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will," she said. That's good, incite the angry mob. That'll probably be effective... :rolleyes: While the military is in the neighborhood, maybe they could go forcibly remove her from office. This Governor is WAY, WAY, WAY out of her league with this crisis....

savafan
09-02-2005, 12:41 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/peter_king/09/01/dunn.donate/index.html?cnn=yes


Atlanta Falcons running back Warrick Dunn, emotionally distraught over the effect of Hurricane Katrina on his native Louisiana, issued an appeal late Thursday afternoon to all NFL players to contribute to hurricane relief efforts.

In an interview from the Falcons' team bus on their way to play the Dolphins tonight, Dunn told SI.com: "I'm challenging guys on every NFL team, except the Saints, to donate at least $5,000 to help people come back from this catastrophe. If we get players to do that, that would amount to $260,000 per team. I have heard from so many players both on my team and around the league who just want to do something. Well, this is the best thing that we can do and it's something we should do."

If Dunn is successful in getting 53 players on the 31 NFL teams to respond with the $5,000 donation, NFL players would be able to give $8.2 million to the relief effort.

Dunn is from Baton Rouge, La. He said he still does not know if his grandfather, who lived in New Orleans, "is dead, alive, at the Superdome, or on a bus somewhere." He also said his grandmother is housing 40 extended family members in one house in Baton Rouge.

The reigning NFL Man of the Year said he thinks players have a moral obligation to help the people of the Gulf Coast. "If guys don't donate," Dunn said, "they're being selfish.

"We're such a great country and it's at times like this a great country has to come together. We're looking at people on TV who have no money, no homes, no job and no idea what they're going to do with their lives. Now is when they need us most. We just have to respond and we have to respond."

Dunn will be working with the Arthur Blank family charitable foundation to organize his effort. He said whatever money is collected will be pooled and he hoped the NFL player representatives would vote on exactly what agencies would get the money. He said he already had commitments from Falcons teammates of at least the $260,000 team goal.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 12:45 PM
Warrick Dunn is a good guy.

I've also heard that Shaq plans to help the victims in Louisiana.


10:33 A.M. - (AP) A large fire erupted today in an old retail building in a dry section of Canal Street. There's no immediate reports of injuries.Earlier today, an explosion at a chemical depot rocked an area of New Orleans east of the French Quarter.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Dom Heffner
09-02-2005, 12:49 PM
The Superdome was designated as a shelter of last resort for those who decided not to evacuate the city after the MANDITORY evacuation order was in place. No one knew how many people would come there since no one could estimate how many would choose to ignore a MANDITORY evacuation order while a Cat 5 storm was heading towards the city.

creek- perhaps you can help with this, but I've heard several times that even if everyone wanted to have evacuated, they couldn't have done it. The roads were jammed, as well as many people did not have cars. New Orleans is a poor, poor, city and many just didn't have the means to leave. In all seriousness, help me out here. Are those true statements? Or was everyone just honestly trying to brave out the storm?

The people I'm seeing aren't looking like the Watch Hill types. One woman said she couldn't afford to evacuate, whatever that means. While I honestly can't relate to that statement, it doesn't mean it isn't true. I can afford to leave anything, but that doesn't mean everyone can.

You keep throwing the mandatory word around, but that type of evacuation assumes that everyone has the means to leave, as well as the city's infrastructure has to be sound enough to support it. It's easy for the governor to say, "Well, I told you to get out..." when maybe not everyone could. I don't know, but these people I'm seeing on TV don't look like they were educated at a private academy in Indian Hill.

You are implying that all of these people decided not to leave, and there may be a better explanation for it than that. I honestly don't know.

And as far as the military rescues go- I mean, there are 24 hour news crews reporting that the rescue operations stopped, so I'm finding it hard to believe that there were all these rescues happening while every single helicopter in the world is flying around just trying to footage of anything and they were missing it, or just not reporting it. Whether or not they were happening you may honestly know, but I certainly think the questions these guys raise are legitimate based on the reports.

RFS62
09-02-2005, 12:50 PM
The evacuation order was given too late to comply. Even when given, everyone involved knew it couldn't possibly be done. They do the best they can to warn people, in terribly difficult circumstances, extreme stress, and they know with absolute certainty that a very large number of people either can't or won't be able to get out.

The ones left were, for the most part, the poorest and most helpless, both financially and logistically. No car, no money for a hotel, no idea what to do. In a perfect world, they would have left. But it's the real world, and when you plan for a disaster, you take the world as it presents itself to you... and that's imperfect and flawed.

FEMA's role is ill-defined for this situation. They are long term bureaucrats. They'll be there for several years providing assistance after the fact in housing, clothing, loans, grants, numerous levels of assistance unrivaled anywhere else in the world.

But they're not efficient first responders. The part of this ordeal that will be cussed and discussed for years to come will be the three or four days in which reporters showed live news feed of people suffering and dying on the streets of New Orleans. They needed a disaster paramedic, not the long term care providers that FEMA is designed for.

Three days will define this relief effort for some time to come. Three years will only scratch the surface of what FEMA will have done before it's over.

This whole thing is a design flaw, exacerbated by lack of immediate recognition of the flaw, and decisive action to correct it.

Food and water. Now. There is no acceptable excuse. And it will never happen again.

Blimpie
09-02-2005, 12:56 PM
It is absolutely tragic the number of stories that I have heard about people who refused to evacuate because of their pets. For many people--once they learned that the shelters would not accept animals, their decisions to stay were made.

Don't get me wrong--I love my dog. But I ain't gonna let my family drown for her.

Puffy
09-02-2005, 01:09 PM
OK, lets talk about evacuations from a hurricane for a second. As a lot of you know I live on the Gulf of Mexico. I have also lived in New Orleans, but I'll get to that latter in this diatribe. Anyway, they give "mandatory" evacuations when it looks like you are going to get directly hit. But its not as simple as leaving. Hurricanes move. Last year I evacation on Charley because they told us to. Went to Orlando to stay at my parents. Guess where Charley hit?? Thats right, it came straight thru Orlando and left Panama City completely unharmed. I evacuated into the hurricane. I have only been down here for two years and now even I know that just because they say a hurricane is coming doesn't mean its gonna hit you. So do all people down here. Its not as easy as "evacuation" and leave. You have to have somewhere to go. You have to have the means to get there. You have to work until they let you off. You have to fight traffic in searing heat.

Now, I have left thus far on every "evacuation" they have given us - but don't think for a minute that I haven't agonized over each one. Can I wait it out? Is it worth it financially to leave? Do I have somewhere to go? These are not easy questions - especially when you don't know where this thing will hit. Its easy for people in Ohio to say "these people were stupid, they told them to leave, so why didn't they leave" - but its a harder question when you are down here.

Now lets talk about New Orleans. New Orleans is poor. You can live in the nicest neighborhood imaginable and two blocks away your neighbors live in single wide trailers with no front door. Does anyone really think these people could afford to evacuate? And if they could that they had somewhere to go? That single wide trailer I mentioned was home to a family of 6 without a car - what were they supposed to do? My secretary is from New Orleans - here family lives there and stayed because there were too many of them, and it would have been impossible to take everyone with them out of town and because the cost would have been too great to house them all. So they all stayed, thinking they could help each other. Was it a mistake? Sure. Can I blame them - hell no.

Its never as easy as people not there wanna make it.

RBA
09-02-2005, 01:14 PM
Great Post, Puffy.

TeamCasey
09-02-2005, 01:17 PM
While we're judging people, don't forget the many elderly and disabled folks who can't leave. I would never have been able to move my mother. I would have gotten her to the dome. Looking at those conditions - I don't think she would've survived it.

Similar to Puffy's story, much of my family's hunkered down through hurricanes in Florida. They try to best guess where it's going to hit and move up or down the state.

RBA
09-02-2005, 01:32 PM
Canadian Forces On Standby To Help Hurricane Katrina Effort
http://www.sitepunch.com/images/divider.gif

September 01, 2005
By Staff

The Canadian military is on standby to help the United States deal with the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, Chief of Defence Staff General Rick Hillier announced Thursday.

"Whenever there is a need ... they have but to ask and we in the Canadian Forces will have it rolling or sailing or flying southward as quickly as possible," he told reporters in Ottawa.

http://www.sitepunch.com/images/General_Hillier.jpgGeneral Hillier indicated he spoke with his counterparts in the U.S., Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers and commander of the U.S. Northern Command.

Hillier also indicated Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team or DART, would be ready to respond as soon as it was needed.

In a 15-minute phone call Thursday, Prime Minister Paul Martin told President Bush Canada will send the US any help needed





"If you need help, just ask and we'll be there," Martin told Bush.

Martin indicated the US President didn't request help, but predicted he will.

Martin, who was attending centennial celebrations in Edmonton, told the crowd of his talk with the US President.

Martin said he expressed Canada's condolences and sympathies and confirmed Canada stands with those who have suffered so much in Katrina's wake.

"I said on your behalf that, if you need help, just ask and we'll be there, now and in the weeks and months ahead. That we will do whatever we can for as long as it takes to help our neighbour and our friend deal with this terrible, terrible tragedy."

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 01:32 PM
A Fox News reporter just gave play-by-play during a live shootout between police and thugs while a huge fire burned in the background.

RBA
09-02-2005, 01:33 PM
A Fox News reporter just gave play-by-play during a live shootout between police and thugs while a huge fire burned in the background.

Sad to say, but these fires are probably being set intentionally.

RFS62
09-02-2005, 01:38 PM
Fires, robberies, and police shootouts happen every day of the year in New Orleans, disaster or no disaster.

The people shooting at the cops and stealing goods other than food and water are not new to that game.

Roy Tucker
09-02-2005, 01:40 PM
I keep waiting for this firestorm to peak and start to die down. But it hasn't seemed to yet.

There is going to be Hell to pay for all this. The fingerpointing and CYAs are going to be of Biblical proportions.

Has martial law been declared in NO? If not, I'd think it's about damn time.

ochre
09-02-2005, 01:42 PM
Has martial law been declared in NO? If not, I'd think it's about damn time.
I believe it was called Wednesday evening, maybe Thursday morning.

15fan
09-02-2005, 01:43 PM
Exactly what I thought last night. Any combat pilot worth his/her salt can maneuver through brutal assaults from enemies during their missions. These people that are firing at the copters are dead wrong to do so; but, it's not exactly like they are firing RPGs or Stinger missiles...

Perhaps the dynamic here isn't the military pilots/aircraft vs. the arms-toting insurgents.

Maybe it has to do with the kind of people who are being evacuated - women, children, elderly, disabled, etc.

If those folks are drawing gunfire as they are being lifted out, then maybe it makes sense to hold off on airlifting them out until the area is a little more secured. It's one thing for a military helicopter to take small arms fire. It's another for a woman and her 2 children to be sitting targets while they're hoisted up into the bird's belly.

On an unrelated note regarding the evacuations (or lack thereof) prior to the storm - over the weekend, we all watched the roadways around the gulf turn into parking lots. The thing I didn't understand is why the authorities didn't commandeer both sides of the divided highways to make all lanes a one way route out of dodge. If the 3 lanes headed out of town are at a standstill, but the 3 lanes headed in town are empty, seems like a pretty simple solution to make it a 6 lane road out of town.

Puffy
09-02-2005, 01:54 PM
On an unrelated note regarding the evacuations (or lack thereof) prior to the storm - over the weekend, we all watched the roadways around the gulf turn into parking lots. The thing I didn't understand is why the authorities didn't commandeer both sides of the divided highways to make all lanes a one way route out of dodge. If the 3 lanes headed out of town are at a standstill, but the 3 lanes headed in town are empty, seems like a pretty simple solution to make it a 6 lane road out of town.

I believe they did this - Sandy mentioned something about it.

Red Leader
09-02-2005, 01:56 PM
I believe they did this - Sandy mentioned something about it.

You are correct. They did do this. I heard them report it on CNN last night.

M2
09-02-2005, 02:01 PM
One thing to remember with the fires is that in some (though by no means all) cases, it's a case of a simple fire gone awry. These people have been wet for a few days and they're starving. A fire might be able to dry them off or cook something for them. I also figure that a fair number of people aren't being picky about what they light. Beggars can't be choosers. If it's dry and it burns, I doubt they care if it spreads to a soon-to-be-condemned building.

On a separate note, just who in the hell shoots at rescue helicopters?

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 02:31 PM
12:09 P.M. - (AP): The stench from backed-up toilets inside the Superdome is unbearable and people are afraid to go into the unlighted bathrooms.

Sandra Jones says she and her family use a box to relieve themselves instead of using restrooms because "The stink is so bad you can't go in there anyway."

Even though she's hungry, one hurricane refugee in the dome says she's not eating. Michele Boyle says eating would mean she'd have to use the dark, dangerous and filthy restrooms in the dome. So she's going without.

Boyle has been spending some of her time trying to keep a small area of the dome as clean as she can until help arrives. Boyle and other refugees found some brooms and swept up the mess.

She says they're simply "trying not to let it get any worse."

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html


11:44 A.M. - (AP) Fire destroyed one in a row of old four-story brick buildings in the central business district Friday. The building was residential, but firefighters said there were no reports of injuries. The structure, not far from the casino and convention center, had minimal damage in the storm but burned to rubble.

Since there is no water in the city system, firefighters were unable to fight the blaze and stood by watching.

"There was nothing they could do," said Chief Norman Woodridge.

The blaze appeared to be contained within the firewalls. It was across the street from two high-rise hotels, where employees were dumping buckets of water on their wind-shredded awnings to prevent embers from lighting them. A half block from the fire, authorities with rifles stood guard.

The building was residential, and earlier in the week people, who apparently rode out the storm there, were sitting on a rooftop patio. Authorities said they were not aware of anyone in the building when the alarm was sounded. Virtually all the city is being evacuated because there is no water or electricity, let alone food and sanitation.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 03:30 PM
Large oil spill reported downstream of New Orleans
Associated Press
September 2, 2005

NEW ORLEANS — A large oil spill was spotted near two storage tanks on the Mississippi River downstream from New Orleans, state officials said Friday.

The oil was seen in a flyover to the Venice area by the Department of Environmental Quality.

"Two tanks with the capacity of holding 2 million barrels appear to be leaking,'' the department said in a statement.

No further details were given.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/125/5593640.html

CNN says the oil is spilling into the Mississippi River.

RFS62
09-02-2005, 03:35 PM
Once the press is done chewing the bones of New Orleans, the attention is going to shift to Mississippi. Tremendous loss of life and misery there that's going largly unreported because New Orleans makes for such compelling video.

Lots of small villages and towns, isolated houses and communities were simply erased.

savafan
09-02-2005, 03:45 PM
http://www.wnbc.com/politics/4930151/detail.html


WASHINGTON -- Rep. John Sweeney, R-N.Y., urged President Bush to appoint former New York City mayor Rudolph Giuliani or two former military officials to run the ground response in the Gulf Coast, saying local authorities are not up to the task.

Sweeney suggested Giuliani or retired generals Colin Powell and Tommy Franks could take charge of the much-criticized hurricane relief efforts.

"We owe it to the American people to have America's best leaders with experience on the ground running this," said Sweeney. "It's been painfully obvious over the last four or five days that the circumstances and challenges coming at us are new, are nothing that had ever been anticipated."

Sweeney said Giuliani proved his ability to lead in a crisis during the Sept. 11 attacks, adding the president should also consider Franks or Powell, men with long military resumes.

One prominent Republican, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, criticized the Bush administration for being sluggish, and urged the president to name Giuliani as the White House point person for relief efforts.

"We need to get the job done now, and I don't think anybody is better prepared to do that psychologically and otherwise than Rudy Giuliani," Gingrich said.

Giuliani has been traveling in Australia this week and only recently returned to the United States. His spokeswoman, Sunny Mindel, declined to comment Friday on calls for his involvement in the Hurricane Katrina response.

Gingrich said the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina "puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?"

But Sweeney defended the Federal Emergency Management Agency in charge of the effort, blaming instead Louisiana and New Orleans officials.

"I think the federal response has been frustrated by the lack of experience on the ground from the local people to really coordinate this," said Sweeney.

When then-FEMA director Joseph Allbaugh responded to Sept. 11, Sweeney said, "There was real leadership on the ground. Joe Allbaugh did a pretty good job by taking direction from Mayor Giuliani."

westofyou
09-02-2005, 03:50 PM
New York City mayor Rudolph Giuliani or two former military officials
Rudy's now worth two Generals?

KronoRed
09-02-2005, 03:51 PM
Sorry Rudy but 9/11 and this are 2 completely different things.

pedro
09-02-2005, 03:51 PM
I think it's appalling that they are trying to blame the problems with the relief effort this on local officials in NOLA. Those people are in a war zone and have been screaming for help and resources. What kind of "leadership" are they really going to be able to provide without the necessary resources?

savafan
09-02-2005, 03:59 PM
Has martial law been declared in NO? If not, I'd think it's about damn time.

I believe only Congress can declare martial law.

Caveat Emperor
09-02-2005, 04:13 PM
Sorry Rudy but 9/11 and this are 2 completely different things.

The only difference having Rudy in charge would be that maybe he wouldn't be dicked around by the Feds as much as it seems like Ray Nagin is getting it right now. I had to stand up and cheer when I heard his quote that politicians need to "Stop having so many frigging press conferences" and start helping his people.

And, to speak on another isssue of "mandatory" evacuations...I do not believe any of us are in a position to judge the people who decided to remain behind. I remember when there was thought that Hurricane Lili could be "the one" that would seriously damage New Orleans, there were many of the same thought as to whether or not people should evacuate. Many people not only lack the financial means to evacuate, their livelihoods would be lost completely if they evacuated, no hurricane hit, and they failed to show up for work the next day. A lot of the people you see who remained, beyond the elderly and the sick, are people who live paycheck to paycheck and can't afford even the possibility of missing a day of work. Even if there were a fleet of buses ready to aid in the evacuation (and there weren't), many of these people would've chosen to take their chances, remain where they were, and be ready for work the next day when the storm veered left or veered right (like they've always seemed to do in the gulf).

My friends and I left, in an overabundance of caution, because we were college students and could...but I wouldn't pass judgment on anyone who had to wrestle with the decision and made a tough call, or were foced to stay because there was simply no decision to be made.

LvJ
09-02-2005, 04:14 PM
I may be getting a job as a Security Guard down there. :runaway:

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 04:15 PM
Congressman David Vidder just said he expects the death toll to start at 10,000...just in Louisiana. :(


2:15 P.M. - WWL-TV: New Orleans music legend Fats Domino is safe after spending the last two days here in the apartment of LSU quarterback JaMarcus Russell.

Domino was rescued for his home in the lower 9th Ward of New Orleans two days ago and brought to the triage unit at the Maravich Assembly Center on the LSU campus. Click here.

2:05 P.M. - (AP): A mix of cheering and swearing has greeted National Guardsman pouring into New Orleans.

As a convoy of relief trucks swarmed through downtown, some near the city's convention center threw up their hands and screamed "Thank You, Jesus!"

Others weren't as pleased. One man says "hell no," he's not happy to see the Guard, saying troops should have shown up days ago. Michael Levy says he'll be pleased when 100 buses arrive to evacuate people.

Levy says people at the center have been sleeping on the ground "like rats." And he says if he had his way, New Orleans would be burned down.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Atleast three or four more fires have broke out in New Orleans.

Blimpie
09-02-2005, 04:56 PM
On an unrelated note regarding the evacuations (or lack thereof) prior to the storm - over the weekend, we all watched the roadways around the gulf turn into parking lots. The thing I didn't understand is why the authorities didn't commandeer both sides of the divided highways to make all lanes a one way route out of dodge. If the 3 lanes headed out of town are at a standstill, but the 3 lanes headed in town are empty, seems like a pretty simple solution to make it a 6 lane road out of town.You hit the nail on the head with this one. Not to bore everyone here with shop talk, but bear with me for a second....I run a highway contracting company that works all over the Southeastern US installing mostly specialty items like guardrail, right-of-way fence or highway signs.

Back in 2002, my company was awarded a "pilot project" through the Georgia DOT that was for the installation of Drop-Gate Barricades along the entire I-16 corridor from Savannah to Macon. Essentially, these gates were designed to be used for the sole purpose of facilitating traffic away from the coastline during the times of any hurricane evacuation.

In a nutshell, which ever lanes on the interstate were designated for traveling towards the coastline (in the case of our project, the Eastbound lanes), would have these barrier gates installed across the on-ramps. This would accomplish two things: 1) prevent traffic from heading towards the storm and 2) allow Westbound (departing) traffic to leave the storm targeted area with double the normal amount of travel lanes at their disposal.

Over the course of roughly two months, we installed 184 Drop Gate Barricades on I-16 at a cost of around $ 645,000. The design called for a "powerless system" that would employ the use of a pulleys that would allow the gates to be lowered across the on-ramps (one gate on each side of the ramp in a "crossed-sword" effect) by local officials during an evacuation. Because each gate could be lowered by hand in about 2-3 minutes, there was a huge cost/benefit factor in using the gates rather than, say, positioning a state trooper on the ramp 24 hours per day.

In summary, the project design was deemed an overwhelming success both by the Georgia DOT engineers and by FEMA. We were told that many future DOT bidding opportunities for projects exactly like this one would be forthcoming in states such as Florida (I-10 and I-95), Virginia (I-64) and both of the Carolinas (I-95 and I-26). Apparently, each of these other states had already engineered their own version of these hurricane evacuation projects, but were simply waiting to hear back from the Georgia DOT about their maintenance costs and design feedback--prior to bidding out their own barricade jobs.

Long story short. It has been 3+ years since we completed the I-16 project in Georgia and the other states decided that these projects were no longer the "flavor of the month" anymore. I may be wrong, but to my knowledge, none of the projects in any of the other states I mentioned have ever been advertised for public bidding. Most of the DOT Traffic Division personnel that I have spoke to about this have claimed that these projects were pushed to the back-burner by FEMA. Maybe the bean counters simply rationalized that it was more cost-efficient to use the state troopers instead.

In any event, I recently watched TV footage of the Katrina evacuation that showed cars lined up on a certain highway (maybe not I-10, but it WAS a four-lane divided highway) for over 15 miles. The lanes travelling in the opposite direction were completed deserted other than a few emergency vehicles. Something tells me that these types of barricade projects will soon magically reappear on the "front burner" again for FEMA. Too little, too late if you ask me. That's the problem with what RFS has been saying all week about FEMA and other bloated Federal Agencies. Anyone can wet their finger and stick it in the air to see which way that the wind is blowing. If they are ever going to run efficiently, it's that focus group mentality that these agencies have to learn to avoid.

TeamCasey
09-02-2005, 04:58 PM
javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2005/09/02/wwl.nagin.intv.affl');

Interesting interview with the mayor.

If the link doesn't work, it's on http://www.cnn.com/ titled "Mayor to feds: get off your ..."

LvJ
09-02-2005, 04:59 PM
I'm pretty sure they did use both sides of the highways to evacuate, or atleast that's what I heard.

savafan
09-02-2005, 05:21 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randall-robinson/new-orleans_b_6643.html


It is reported that black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive.

I was wondering when it would come to this.

Dom Heffner
09-02-2005, 05:27 PM
The president's Gulf Coast road show

When even the extraordinarily conservative Washington Times is wondering what happened to "the president we saw standing atop the ruin of the World Trade Center, rallying a dazed country to action," you know that George W. Bush has got trouble on his hands.

The president has made his way back from vacation, and now he's traveling along the Gulf Coast, checking in on hurricane damage and relief efforts. We said this morning that he probably couldn't expect a hero's welcome. What we didn't anticipate was just how tone-deaf he'd be in making the rounds.

Before leaving Washington this morning, Bush said that the results of the federal government's relief efforts were "not acceptable." Bush promised to make things right when he landed in Mobile, Ala., a few hours later, but he also offered up a shout-out to FEMA Director Michael Brown. "Brownie," he said, "you're doing a heck of a job."

In the same speech, the president noted that Trent Lott's oceanfront home in Pascagoula, Miss., had been destroyed, and he promised that it -- like all of the Gulf Coast -- will be built again better than it was before. "There's going to be a fantastic house," Bush said, "and I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." There was laughter as the president spoke in Mobile, but probably not so much among the mostly African-American victims still waiting for help in New Orleans. It was Trent Lott, after all, who once observed that America would have been better off if it had elected segregationist Strom Thurmond to the White House in 1948.

Bush is arriving now in New Orleans, but he stopped along the way to survey the damage in Biloxi, Miss. While there, he made it clear that he wasn't admitting any kind of failure or mistake when he announced earlier that the "results" of the relief efforts were "not acceptable." Asked why help hadn't come more quickly, Bush talked of progress in New Orleans and said: "I am satisfied with the response. I'm not satisfied with all the results." Asked what "results" he had in mind, Bush said: "Well, I'm talking about the fact that we don't have enough security in New Orleans yet."

www.salon.com

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 05:37 PM
3:14 P.M. - St. Bernard Parish officials say that FEMA has not called them yet...five days after the storm.

3:07 P.M. - BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) -- U.S. Sen. David Vitter said FEMA's efforts to deal with the hurricane have been completely ineffective, and he called the federal government's response a failure.

"I think FEMA has been completely dysfunctional and is completely overwhelmed, and I don't know why. This situation was utterly predictable," said Vitter, R-Metairie. "It seems like there was no coherent plan, which I don't understand because this precise scenario has been predicted for 20 years," he said.

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

LvJ
09-02-2005, 05:38 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/randall-robinson/new-orleans_b_6643.html



I was wondering when it would come to this. Randall Robinson should retire and move away.

Please.

Thanks. :)

LvJ
09-02-2005, 05:40 PM
Again, I say, I am most likely going to Baton Rogue within 3 weeks for Security. Anyone interested, please contact Wackenhut Security in Lexington. They need help.

15fan
09-02-2005, 05:43 PM
Blimpie -

Thanks for the story. Several years ago when the eastern seaboard was seeing it's fair share of hurricanes, my in-laws trekked over from Charleston SC as part of a couple of hurricane evacuations. There were massive traffic jams all allong I-16 and I-26.

Glad to hear that someone somewhere got something done so that those jams will be less likely for future evacuations, at least in this neck of the woods. It's too bad that they weren't rolled out on a more widespread basis. I realize that there are a lot of reasons why people can't / won't evacuate before a hurricane, but traffic jams when there are empty stretches of road just a few feet away just doesn't make any sense.

flyer85
09-02-2005, 05:54 PM
The City of New Orleans(and the state Of Louisiana) obviously had no disaster contingency plan to deal with a worst case scenario and were left completely helpless to handle even the most minimal of relief efforts. The federal government is never going to be there immediately and so people have been suffering as a result. Trying to fiugure out who is to blame is a rather minor issue at this point.

thorn
09-02-2005, 06:00 PM
Asked what "results" he had in mind, Bush said: "Well, I'm talking about the fact that we don't have enough security in New Orleans yet."

This is exactly why you should never trust reports on the internet. There was no such qeustion asked of Bush, here is exactly what he said as reported by CNN. Maybe people should start considering the source of these so called news sources on the internet and stop spreading bull**** that does nothing to help the situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html

paintmered
09-02-2005, 06:09 PM
This is exactly why you should never trust reports on the internet. There was no such qeustion asked of Bush, here is exactly what he said as reported by CNN. Maybe people should start considering the source of these so called news sources on the internet and stop spreading bull**** that does nothing to help the situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html


Easy on the tone.

thorn
09-02-2005, 06:12 PM
Sorry, posted twice by mistake.

KronoRed
09-02-2005, 06:27 PM
I'm pretty sure they did use both sides of the highways to evacuate, or atleast that's what I heard.

Pretty sure they did as well, I recall Sandy mentioned it.

thorn
09-02-2005, 06:28 PM
My apologies on the Tone. It's just frustrating on how news sources are turning us against each other at every turn. Maybe it's me, but it seems there was never this amount of division amongst the people of America before the internet. Not that the internet is bad, it's how many "News Sources" there are on the internet and how many different versions of this same story is told. Politics should be the LAST thing on people's mind at this point, but just like vultures, the media will not let it go away. To me these people are just as detrimental to the relief efforts as the looters and people shooting at the helicopters. I was watching FOX the other night, and one reported (Shepard Smith I beleive) was walking behind a police officer harrsing him with questions like, What are you doing to help these people". He was all over him for ratings. What he should have asked back is, of all the media helicopters flying around, how many have you rescued? How many have you evacuated? Media, I hate them all. Enough with my rant.

WMR
09-02-2005, 06:47 PM
A busload of evacuees just overturned on the way to dallas

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2005, 06:48 PM
An evacuation bus has flipped over two miles north of Lafayette, LA. Good grief. These people have got to be asking themselves what they did to deserve this.

Dom Heffner
09-02-2005, 07:00 PM
This is exactly why you should never trust reports on the internet. There was no such qeustion asked of Bush, here is exactly what he said as reported by CNN. Maybe people should start considering the source of these so called news sources on the internet and stop spreading bull**** that does nothing to help the situation.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/ka...pact/index.html

In one of the biggest ironies of all time, the link you provided does not indicate anywhere that the question was not asked. In fact, it states the same reply as quoted by salon, but CNN is not providing a transcript of an interview but merely providing comments made by the president and has omitted the questions posed. If it didn't happen, it didn't happen, but at least show me proof positive. Hope I didn't miss anything, but I've read that article twice now and can't see quite where you are drawing your conclusions from.

Blimpie
09-02-2005, 09:41 PM
I'm pretty sure they did use both sides of the highways to evacuate, or atleast that's what I heard.I know that they did start using both sides of I-10 during the weekend, but I personally saw an AP photo in either the Lexington Herald Leader or in USA Today last Friday (IIRC) that showed the scenario I was talking about earlier. Two lanes were jammed in one direction--two lanes empty in the other. I will hunt for an online version of that photo and try to post it....