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View Full Version : Bush Administration Cut Funding to help New Orleans with hurricanes/flooding



Dom Heffner
08-29-2005, 10:12 PM
This was written in June- I like the line about how money wasn't a problem when good old Bob Livingston was in town.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367

CrackerJack
08-29-2005, 11:38 PM
Party favoring or desperate cuts due to recent overseas military spending and huge federal deficits?

Neither would suprise me and both reasons are just sad and depressing to think about as usual with this administration.

redsrule2500
08-30-2005, 01:27 AM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

Rojo
08-30-2005, 01:36 AM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

Your cruelty aside, the article wasn't about FEMA after-the-fact help but spending money to prevent or ameliorate the effects of a natural disaster.

RedFanAlways1966
08-30-2005, 07:38 AM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

Thank you for being honest and truthful. :thumbup:

RBA
08-30-2005, 09:34 AM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

Actually, New Orleans was and still is a strategic site for defense of the United States. Without New Orleans this country may of never been as successful as it is today. It's not only about the people who choose to live there, it's also about the ECONOMY of the United States. But I guess a tax cut in time of war was more necessary.

Johnny Footstool
08-30-2005, 09:36 AM
Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

We'll all be paying for it via higher insurance premiums. Since we all pay taxes anyway, it would be nice to use some of those dollars as a cushion to soften the extra blow to our pocketbooks.

westofyou
08-30-2005, 10:33 AM
Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level.

We'll all remember that when the Ohio River floods next time... it's happened before. You have been warned.

Having actually lived through a disaster of NATURAL causes and seeing the trouble it caused and the strife it brings to life post disaster all I can say is I hope you, and your "let them eat cake" attitude never has to face off with one.

They suck.

RBA
08-30-2005, 10:42 AM
We'll all remember that when the Ohio River floods next time... it's happened before. You have been warned.

Having actually lived through a disaster of NATURAL causes and seeing the trouble it caused and the strife it brings to life post disaster all I can say is I hope you, and your "let them eat cake" attitude never has to face off with one.

They suck.

Yeah, let see what happens if New Orleans was destroyed and the Mississippi River was blocked by debris with heavy rains from what's left of the Hurricane pouring down on the Midwest.

TeamCasey
08-30-2005, 10:45 AM
We'll all remember that when the Ohio River floods next time... it's happened before.

..... or the next blizzard, earthquake, flood or tornado.

RR2500 ..... good luck finding that happy place in the world where nothing bad can ever touch you or yours.

Unassisted
08-30-2005, 10:53 AM
Politics are a convenient excuse, except that New Orleans and Louisiana are not the only places receiving fewer Federal dollars in this region. As one of my state's US Senators is fond of pointing out, the Base Closure commission is recommending the closure of all US naval bases on the Gulf Coast. That one can't be blamed on politics, as there are more red states than blue along the gulf these days.

New Orleans has long been a disaster waiting to happen because of geography. That'll be tough and expensive to fix, but this disaster will make preventive measures an easier sell in Congress.

traderumor
08-30-2005, 10:57 AM
Can we at least acknowledge that there have been multi million dollar home construction going on in high risk areas using the Fed Funds safety net for de facto insurance, so the powers that be start to develop the attitude "when do we start cutting off our spoiled children?" For example, that has been an issue of concern in Florida with the expensive homes being built on the coast, getting washed away, then rebuilding with Fed $.

RBA
08-30-2005, 11:00 AM
Time for the City of New Orleans and State to use their Immenent Domain laws for the betterment of the public as a whole.

Puffy
08-30-2005, 11:55 AM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

As someone who lived in New Orleans for three years and now lives on the Gulf of Mexico in Panama City I am speechless. I don't even know how to respond to this.

I guess, according to you, people in NYC know the risks of potential terrorist attacks (they being the obvious past and future target), nay inevitable future terrorist attacks, and should get no funding from tax dollars for prevention cause hey, they know the risks.

pedro
08-30-2005, 11:58 AM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

That's incredibly myopic.

Chip R
08-30-2005, 12:10 PM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

Maybe you should look some of these people who have lost their homes and family members in the eye and tell them this. I'm sure they will be greatly comforted.

RFS62
08-30-2005, 12:13 PM
By far the biggest government expense in the New Orleans - gulf coast relief mission will be helping the weak, the poor, the elderly, the infirm. The people who don't have homeowners insurance. The people who barely make ends meet from week to week.

Yeah, we ought to turn our backs on them. That's the American way.

I'm not in the mood to listen to much of that crap right now.

But it never fails. It's not a new argument.

redsrule2500
08-30-2005, 12:17 PM
We'll all remember that when the Ohio River floods next time... it's happened before. You have been warned.

Having actually lived through a disaster of NATURAL causes and seeing the trouble it caused and the strife it brings to life post disaster all I can say is I hope you, and your "let them eat cake" attitude never has to face off with one.

They suck.

Actually my parents house flooded last September - they liive right on the Ohio River

redsrule2500
08-30-2005, 12:19 PM
As someone who lived in New Orleans for three years and now lives on the Gulf of Mexico in Panama City I am speechless. I don't even know how to respond to this.

I guess, according to you, people in NYC know the risks of potential terrorist attacks (they being the obvious past and future target), nay inevitable future terrorist attacks, and should get no funding from tax dollars for prevention cause hey, they know the risks.

You are taking two completely different things and trying to compare them.

traderumor
08-30-2005, 12:32 PM
By far the biggest government expense in the New Orleans - gulf coast relief mission will be helping the weak, the poor, the elderly, the infirm. The people who don't have homeowners insurance. The people who barely make ends meet from week to week.

Yeah, we ought to turn our backs on them. That's the American way.

I'm not in the mood to listen to much of that crap right now.

But it never fails. It's not a new argument.Yet, there is also the capitalist waiting to capitalize (bad pun) on this, as well. For example, The Today Show, while New Orleans and Mississippi were getting pounded yesterday, was doing a piece about a "Hurricane Financial Plan." That was real sensitive :angry:

Puffy
08-30-2005, 12:32 PM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.


You are taking two completely different things and trying to compare them.

Those are your words - "the people living there know the risks associated" - well, the people in NYC know the risks associated with the inevitable future terrorist attacks.

"Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when inevitable disasters do occur" - again, your words. Switching disaster to terrorist attack is all I did. How is that comparing two different things?

RFS62
08-30-2005, 12:51 PM
Yet, there is also the capitalist waiting to capitalize (bad pun) on this, as well. For example, The Today Show, while New Orleans and Mississippi were getting pounded yesterday, was doing a piece about a "Hurricane Financial Plan." That was real sensitive :angry:


Yep, that happens on every disaster and on every level.

There will soon be truckloads of generators brought in, and selling off the back of the truck at many times market value. Same with rubber boots, plywood and bottled water.

Tar and feathers would be too good for these scum.

Rojo
08-30-2005, 12:54 PM
You are taking two completely different things and trying to compare them.

Why are they different? Why is spending billions on a pre-emptive strike against terrorism different than spending a few million to prepare for a hurricane?

traderumor
08-30-2005, 01:09 PM
Why are they different? Why is spending billions on a pre-emptive strike against terrorism different than spending a few million to prepare for a hurricane?I just want to qualify before I say this that I do not agree with RR2500's logic in this instance.

But I do not think this is a good comparison. A terrorist attack has nothing to do with the location of the city being protected, and while it is reasonably foreseeable, NYC is a target for reasons other than its mere location and topography. Spending money for protection against terrorist attacks in any city is a matter of national defense, and therefore a clear responsibility of the Fed Gov't to take care of. In this case, it is much less clear that it is the responsibility of the Fed government to protect any city from a natural disaster. It seems to be primarily a private concern moreso than a public concern, much like building on a flood plane or on a fault line, or at the base of an active volcano.

919191
08-30-2005, 01:21 PM
You are taking two completely different things and trying to compare them.

So noone anywhere should have any assistance to help with damage caused by a natural disaster? Tornado victims living in states where tornados are common shoulder the blame because they choose to live there? Or the Missouri flood victims a few years back? The magnitude of this storm is no common yearly event. If nature strike a blow to you and yours are you solely responsible? Would you turn down aid because of a moral objection? After all, it would be your fault!

RedFanAlways1966
08-30-2005, 01:23 PM
Wonder how much money Germany, France or Russia will give to the relief effort in the Gulf parts of our country? Will it be enough? Will it be as much as the U.S. gives to disaster areas in other parts of the world?

I guess we will have to wait and see.

Rojo
08-30-2005, 01:38 PM
I just want to qualify before I say this that I do not agree with RR2500's logic in this instance.

But I do not think this is a good comparison. A terrorist attack has nothing to do with the location of the city being protected, and while it is reasonably foreseeable, NYC is a target for reasons other than its mere location and topography. Spending money for protection against terrorist attacks in any city is a matter of national defense, and therefore a clear responsibility of the Fed Gov't to take care of. In this case, it is much less clear that it is the responsibility of the Fed government to protect any city from a natural disaster. It seems to be primarily a private concern moreso than a public concern, much like building on a flood plane or on a fault line, or at the base of an active volcano.

With all due respect, its a distinction without a difference. The preamble to the Constitution, "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare". Do you think Jefferson and Madison meant "except hurricanes"?

traderumor
08-30-2005, 02:10 PM
With all due respect, its a distinction without a difference. The preamble to the Constitution, "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare". Do you think Jefferson and Madison meant "except hurricanes"?No, I think they meant armed forces. Now, if you bolded "promote the general Welfare," you may have won the round. ;)

Roy Tucker
08-30-2005, 02:14 PM
Hey, let them at least get the dead in the ground before starting a RZ urination contest.

westofyou
08-30-2005, 02:23 PM
Hey, let them at least get the dead in the ground before starting a RZ urination contest.

:clap: :clap:

redsrule2500
08-30-2005, 02:26 PM
Those are your words - "the people living there know the risks associated" - well, the people in NYC know the risks associated with the inevitable future terrorist attacks.

"Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when inevitable disasters do occur" - again, your words. Switching disaster to terrorist attack is all I did. How is that comparing two different things?


Oh please. A terrorist attack is a direct attack on our country by another organization or country. A hurricane is a natural disaster.

BIG difference, and don't try to pretend it's not.

registerthis
08-30-2005, 02:40 PM
BIG difference, and don't try to pretend it's not.What are the results of each?

registerthis
08-30-2005, 02:41 PM
No, I think they meant armed forces. Now, if you bolded "promote the general Welfare," you may have won the round. ;)

"In Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare".What do I win? ;)

Chip R
08-30-2005, 02:42 PM
Oh please. A terrorist attack is a direct attack on our country by another organization or country. A hurricane is a natural disaster.

BIG difference, and don't try to pretend it's not.
There is a difference but by your logic, people shouldn't live in NYC or Washington D.C. since they are liable to be attacked by terrorists.

Puffy
08-30-2005, 02:56 PM
What do I win? ;)

A date with this girl:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1070272/Image19.jpg

Puffy
08-30-2005, 02:57 PM
There is a difference but by your logic, people shouldn't live in NYC or Washington D.C. since they are liable to be attacked by terrorists.

Exactly. Thank you Chip.

919191
08-30-2005, 02:58 PM
So what parts of the nation should be eligible for aid? I mean, where is it that if nature strikes, the victims won't be at fault? Help me here,RR2500. I live in western Indiana not too far from a fault line. Hasn't erupted in any major way in years, but if it interrupts my dinner tonight and brings my neighborhood down am I the one to blame for making a bad choice?

traderumor
08-30-2005, 03:00 PM
There is a difference but by your logic, people shouldn't live in NYC or Washington D.C. since they are liable to be attacked by terrorists.Despite Roy's admonition :p: , the argument isn't that folks should not live in these places, its whether or not the Fed gov't is responsible for protecting them from outside forces, whether it be armed forces or forces of nature. I am all for Fed Funding of such projects, to a degree. For example, the Army Corps of Engineers was responsible for turning swampland in my hometown to usable land that eventually became a church that I heard the gospel in (not the government's intent, so no Church/State issues ;) ). Of course, some wonder if that was a good thing or not :) I am only against Fed funding when it is clear that folks are misusing Gov't funds to build projects that they would not accept the risk on if it was their own money at stake.

KronoRed
08-30-2005, 03:01 PM
A date with this girl:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1070272/Image19.jpg

Does she know about this? ;)

redsrule2500
08-30-2005, 03:02 PM
What are the results of each?

Both cause distruction, but one lowers our nations standing and strength in the world, far more than a tornado or hurricane would.

Rojo
08-30-2005, 03:04 PM
Oh please. A terrorist attack is a direct attack on our country by another organization or country. A hurricane is a natural disaster.

BIG difference, and don't try to pretend it's not.

But why is that difference meaningful?

RFS62
08-30-2005, 03:05 PM
Man, you guys are trying to get me to pop a vein in my head.

Anybody watching the helicopters plucking those people off their roofs?

Any of those guys look like fat cats?

Leave them there, huh? That'll show them.

Rojo
08-30-2005, 03:06 PM
Hey, let them at least get the dead in the ground before starting a RZ urination contest.

or before pontificating.

westofyou
08-30-2005, 03:07 PM
Both cause distruction, but one lowers our nations standing and strength in the world, far more than a tornado or hurricane would.

You don't think that New Orleans and the ensuing damage isn't going to economically effect the USA?

Toss out the mental anquish that we can't see flesh to flesh due to the distance and you'll still feel some effect from this storm, most likely in the pocketbook.

Puffy
08-30-2005, 03:10 PM
Man, you guys are trying to get me to pop a vein in my head.



For those of you trying to make RFS pop a vein in his head, be warned - he is no nonsense, as evidenced by his picture:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1070272/Image2.jpg

Chip R
08-30-2005, 03:12 PM
I'll tell you guys what. If you don't think your tax dollars should be used to help these people out, go with me down to New Orleans or Biloxi and ask for your share back. And I'll give them an extra share of my tax dollar. Would that make you happy?

WVRedsFan
08-30-2005, 03:17 PM
Man, you guys are trying to get me to pop a vein in my head.

Anybody watching the helicopters plucking those people off their roofs?

Any of those guys look like fat cats?

Leave them there, huh? That'll show them.

I've had the tV o n in the office on CNN for the past three hours and all I can feel is deep concern for the country. Those folks look a lot like us to me. To turn our backs on them would prove to me that this country is headed down the road to destruction.

I'm with RFS62. We all can't do enough to help--with our government and our pocketbooks.

dsmith421
08-30-2005, 03:23 PM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

I mean, wow.

Why is it that anytime someone starts a sentence with "no offense, but", or "I'm not a racist, but", or "Not to sound cruel/evil", you can be pretty sure that that person is about to say something offensive, bigoted, or incredibly cruel?

traderumor
08-30-2005, 03:27 PM
I'll tell you guys what. If you don't think your tax dollars should be used to help these people out, go with me down to New Orleans or Biloxi and ask for your share back. And I'll give them an extra share of my tax dollar. Would that make you happy?As Rojo pointed out in the initial backlash at RR2500, this isn't a FEMA issue, its a planning issue.

For the record, I agree with those who think that pulling that much funding was a poor choice by the Feds. I do not think that it is the same as a national defense issue, but I also do not think that it falls under the issues our government is running into with the Florida beach home issues. This is a city that was built where it was long before all the consequences of its location were likely known and is an important city for our national interests, as others have pointed out.

registerthis
08-30-2005, 03:35 PM
A date with this girl:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1070272/Image19.jpgI like chicks with guns.

GAC
08-30-2005, 03:56 PM
Would much rather see our tax dollars helping people, especially in times of a disaster, then the politicians who help themselves by adding their pork barrel projects to bills to appease their constituents and stay in office. ;)

We can fund the money to help tsunami victims or help AIDs victims in Africa, but we can't help our own?

Reminds me of that spoof scene from the movie Airplane where James Kirkpatrick is dishing it back to Shana Alexander.... "Dammit Shanna, they bought the ticket, they got on the plane, they knew the risks. I say - let'em crash!"

Tony Cloninger
08-30-2005, 04:02 PM
This reminds me of that commentator from the movie AIRPLANE!

"They knew what they were getting into when they bought the tickets....I SAY....LET 'EM CRASH!"

TeamCasey
08-30-2005, 04:20 PM
We have people right here in Redszone wondering if they have a home to go home to. Wondering if friends and family are O.K.. Not knowing what their future holds.

I beg all of you to show a little sensitivity.

It isn't the time for an RZ pissing match.

traderumor
08-30-2005, 04:57 PM
We have people right here in Redszone wondering if they have a home to go home to. Wondering if friends and family are O.K.. Not knowing what their future holds.

I beg all of you to show a little sensitivity.

It isn't the time for an RZ pissing match.Where were these warnings when Dom posted the article?

TeamCasey
08-30-2005, 05:13 PM
Good job taking the high road.

Falls City Beer
08-30-2005, 05:23 PM
Good job taking the high road.

Even I know better than to jump on this train to nowhere. And that's sayin' something.

traderumor
08-30-2005, 05:31 PM
I have no problems with the comments I've made in this thread. I really have no problems with the other comments made, from either side. Just a discussion about an issue that is somewhat tangent to this whole thing. People take things different ways.

And wait til you see what happens to the poor mayor of New Orleans and his admin, who will probably get blamed for anything that the hindsight "told ya sos" say could have been done to prevent certain things from happening.

BTW, TC, because you are someone on this board that I hold in highest esteem, I'll shut up now. :)

letsgojunior
08-30-2005, 05:49 PM
Puffy stop auctioning me off!

redsrule2500
08-30-2005, 10:56 PM
Hey now, I never said no funding should go to them. Wow, guys read my original post.

smith288
08-31-2005, 08:29 AM
I will just say that if the govt funded every single dangerous location/region against natural disaster, then forget having a well armed military... Sometimes $%it happens and this is one of those times.

20/20 hindsight, told ya so arguments wont help the victims.

Just have to ramp up financial charity as well as other provisions to the victims of the tragedy from Miss all the way up through the Ohio Valley where flooding is sure to strike.

A little prayer couldnt hurt either.

RBA
08-31-2005, 08:48 AM
I will just say that if the govt funded every single dangerous location/region against natural disaster, then forget having a well armed military... Sometimes $%it happens and this is one of those times.

20/20 hindsight, told ya so arguments wont help the victims.

Just have to ramp up financial charity as well as other provisions to the victims of the tragedy from Miss all the way up through the Ohio Valley where flooding is sure to strike.

A little prayer couldnt hurt either.


Well, some of those billions being wasted in the endless moneypit Iraq could at least be put to good use for a change. Wasn't there a movie called the Moneypit? A couple bought a house and had to keep putting money into to make it liveable. Sounds like Iraq to me.

Dom Heffner
08-31-2005, 10:04 AM
20/20 hindsight, told ya so arguments wont help the victims.

Yeah, but warnings could have. In early 2001, FEMA listed the top 3 most likely disasters to hit the U.S.

Bush is 0-2 so far in his response (FEMA is the problem, you know).

If I lived in Frisco, I'd be moving away.

http://www.hurricane.lsu.edu/_in_the_news/houston.htm


A little prayer couldnt hurt either.

It hasn't prevented anything, either.

smith288
08-31-2005, 10:33 AM
Yeah, but warnings could have. In early 2001, FEMA listed the top 3 most likely disasters to hit the U.S.

Sounds like a warning to me doesnt it? As Gulfport Fire Chief Pat Sullivan said after surveying the damage and acknowledging the hundreds, maybe thousands of deaths soon to be reported, "You cant regulate common sense". He is talking about how even after warning before the hurricane, there was way too many who thought they could stick it out and ignore the calls to evacuate. Sometimes, you can only do so much and tragedy still strikes.


It hasn't prevented anything, either.

Ah...you are one of those. No mind, Ill still pray for them.

smith288
08-31-2005, 10:34 AM
Well, some of those billions being wasted in the endless moneypit Iraq could at least be put to good use for a change. Wasn't there a movie called the Moneypit? A couple bought a house and had to keep putting money into to make it liveable. Sounds like Iraq to me.

So we can put all our resources in hurricane prevention? Good Lord...what a waste of money.

Redsfaithful
08-31-2005, 12:21 PM
So we can put all our resources in hurricane prevention? Good Lord...what a waste of money.

Who said anything about all? I'm sure all the people suffering right now would love to hear you say that money put towards hurricane planning and prevention is a "waste".

GAC
08-31-2005, 12:50 PM
Well, some of those billions being wasted in the endless moneypit Iraq could at least be put to good use for a change. Wasn't there a movie called the Moneypit? A couple bought a house and had to keep putting money into to make it liveable. Sounds like Iraq to me.

I guess you didn't stay and see the end of that movie - what a beautiful mansion it turned out to be after all that effort! ;)

Larkin Fan
08-31-2005, 08:46 PM
Hey, let them at least get the dead in the ground before starting a RZ urination contest.

Amen to that, Roy. Unbelieveable.

RedsBaron
08-31-2005, 08:53 PM
Hey, let them at least get the dead in the ground before starting a RZ urination contest.
Amen.

wolfboy
09-02-2005, 02:38 AM
That's actually supported by me.

Not to sound cruel/evil, but the people living there know the risks associated with living in a tropical area that's largely under sea level. Spending OUR tax dollars to help these people when the inevitable disasters do occur isn't exactly something I agree with.

I sincerely hope you never face circumstances like the people trapped in New Orleans are enduring. Additionally, I would hope that if you did, kinder words than these would be expressed concerning your misery. I would generally classify myself as an agnostic. That wavers at times. Certitude is something I'm rarely comfortable with. The people suffering in New Orleans right now are the neediest people in our country. They are, for the most part, the poorest segment of the poorest urban area in the country. Right now, they are suffering like you or I cannot imagine. Like I said, I'm rarely certain about many things, but this I am sure of: If there is a God above watching over us, then the people that suffer the most are his eyes and ears in this world. The next time you are tempted to non-chalantly brush off the extreme suffering others endure, I would hope you think of it that way.

WMR
09-02-2005, 09:42 AM
Bush Says Relief Results 'Not Acceptable'
By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

17 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - President Bush, facing blistering criticism for his administration's response to Hurricane Katrina, said Friday "the results are not acceptable" and pledged to bolster relief efforts with a personal trip to the Gulf Coast.

"We'll get on top of this situation," Bush said, "and we're going to help the people that need help."

He spoke on the White House grounds just boarding his presidential helicopter, Marine One, with Homeland Security Department secretary Michael Chertoff to tour the region. The department, which oversees the Federal Emergency Management Agency, has been accused of responding sluggishly to the deadly hurricane.

"There's a lot of aid surging toward those who've been affected. Millions of gallons of water. Millions of tons of food. We're making progress about pulling people out of the Superdome," the president said.

For the first time, however, he stopped defending his administration's response and criticized it. "A lot of people are working hard to help those who've been affected. The results are not acceptable," he said. "I'm heading down there right now."

Bush hoped that his tour of the hurricane-ravaged states would boost the spirits of increasingly desperate storm victims and their tired rescuers, and his visit was aimed at tamping down the ever-angrier criticism that he has engineered a too-little, too-late response.

Four days after Katrina made landfall in southeastern Louisiana, Bush was to get a second, closer look at the devastation wrought by the storm's 145 mph winds and 25-foot storm surge in an area stretching from just west of New Orleans to Pensacola, Fla. In all, there are 90,000 square miles under federal disaster declaration.

In Mobile, Ala., the president was to get a briefing on the damage, followed by a helicopter survey of areas along the Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana coasts. He was to walk through hard-hit neighborhoods in Biloxi, Miss.

But Bush was avoiding an in-person visit to the worst areas of New Orleans, mostly drowned in rank floodwaters and descending in many areas into lawlessness as desperate residents await rescue or even just food and water. Instead, the president was taking an aerial tour of the city and making an appearance at the airport several miles from the center of town.

Friday's trip follows a 35-minute flyover of the region he took Wednesday aboard Air Force One. as he headed back to Washington from his Texas ranch.

While the president was working his way along the coast, his wife, Laura, was scheduled to be nearby in Lafayette, La. Mrs. Bush was to visit the Cajundome arena to console people who took shelter there.

Amid the lowest approval ratings of his presidency, Bush has other problems besides the hurricane: Gasoline prices have soared past $3 a gallon in some places, and support is ebbing for the war in Iraq.

So Bush has tried to respond to Katrina in a way that evokes the national goodwill he cultivated after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks — and that does not recall the criticism his father, former President Bush, endured after Hurricane Andrew slammed Florida in 1992.

But he began facing questions about his leadership in the crisis almost immediately. New Orleans officials, in particular, were enraged about what they said was a slow federal response.

"They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night.

Seeking to deflect the criticism, Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, asserted earlier Friday: "In this catastrophic event, everything that we had pre-positioned and ready to go became overwhelmed immediately after the storm."

Though he cut his August stay at his Texas ranch short by two days to return to Washington, some said that Bush should not have waited until two days after the storm hit to do so.

The president and his aides have repeatedly rattled off specifics about the massive federal response effort under way, from Bush's personal donation to the number of tarps delivered to a $10.5 billion request in emergency aid from Congress to the 28,000 troops sent to the region to help with security and rescues. Some people say the federal government could do more, or do it more quickly, if so many National Guard troops hadn't been sent to Iraq.

Also, there already are questions about funding for the Army Corps of Engineers' part in managing the levees that protected New Orleans, especially given years of warnings that the network of barriers was inadequate for the largest storms.

The White House on Thursday made available top Corps officials to assure reporters that cuts to the agency's budget did not cause the Katrina disaster. Even though the administration has chronically cut back on the Corps' own requests for funding — including two key New Orleans-area projects — White House officials trumpeted the administration's support for the Corps.

"Flood control has been a priority of this administration from Day One," McClellan said.

registerthis
09-02-2005, 09:51 AM
The U.S. is operating like a third world country in New orleans. It's maddening to watch corpses getting stacked up in front of the convention center of a major American city while our government seems impotent to help.

I don't know where the ball got dropped and who is to blame, but this mess needs to get sorted out NOW.

RBA
09-02-2005, 09:54 AM
For those not in the know, Military and the feds responding have been ordered to put a positive spin on the response so far. I have a good source for this.

kbrake
09-02-2005, 10:10 AM
Sounds like a warning to me doesnt it? As Gulfport Fire Chief Pat Sullivan said after surveying the damage and acknowledging the hundreds, maybe thousands of deaths soon to be reported, "You cant regulate common sense". He is talking about how even after warning before the hurricane, there was way too many who thought they could stick it out and ignore the calls to evacuate. Sometimes, you can only do so much and tragedy still strikes.

Some people just dont have the means to evacuate. Most of the people we are seeing rescued are people who live below the poverty line. Just because you recieve a warning does not mean that you have a way of getting out. It is so unfair to point at these people who 1. Had no place to go. and 2. Had no way of getting to this place. Besides that most these people survived the hurricane and were doing ok, it wasnt until the levy's broke that all hell broke loose.

And another thing now will be a good time to see how well the war on terror is working. If the terrorist have it together at all, they will attack in the coming weeks. This is the perfect chance for them to wreak havoc on America and our economy. I shouldnt have to say this but you never know. I am by no means hoping for an attack or anything of that nature just saying it is something that should be watched for.

Jaycint
09-02-2005, 10:11 AM
I don't know where the ball got dropped and who is to blame, but this mess needs to get sorted out NOW.

I turned on the news this morning, can't remember if it was CNN or MSNBC, and they were interviewing the Mayor of New Orleans and he was absolutely livid about how things have been handled getting immediate aid into the area. Can't say I blame him at all. It got to the point where he broke down in tears at the end of the interview. My heart goes out to him and the rest of people suffering so badly down there.

WMR
09-02-2005, 10:15 AM
Explosions Jolt New Orleans Residents


By ALLEN G. BREED, AP

NEW ORLEANS (Sept. 2) - An explosion at a chemical depot jolted residents awake early Friday, illuminating the pre-dawn sky with red and orange flames over a city awash in corpses and under siege from looters. There were no immediate reports of injuries.

Vibrations from the blast along the Mississippi River and a few miles east of the French Quarter were felt all the way downtown. A series of smaller blasts followed and then a pillar of acrid, black smoke.

To jittery residents of flood-devastated New Orleans, it was yet another fearful sign of collapse in a city that has been plunged into lawlessness and despair since Hurricane Katrina slammed ashore Monday morning.

Congress was rushing through a $10.5 billion aid package, the Pentagon promised to send in 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to stop the looting and President Bush planned to visit the region Friday. But city officials were seething with anger over what they called a slow federal response to a disaster that may have killed thousands.

"They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn -- excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed."

In Washington, President Bush answered the criticism of the government response to the disaster by saying "the results are not acceptable" and pledged to bolster relief efforts with a personal trip to the Gulf Coast.

"We'll get on top of this situation," he said, "and we're going to help the people that need help."

Thursday saw thousands being evacuated by bus to Houston from the hot and stinking Superdome. Fistfights and fires erupted amid a seething sea of tense, suffering people who waited in a lines that stretched a half-mile to board yellow school buses. The looting continued.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco called the looters "hoodlums" and issued a warning to lawbreakers: Hundreds of National Guardsmen hardened on the battlefield in Iraq have landed in New Orleans.


Quotes on the Devastation



AP ''We are out here like pure animals. We don't have help.''

-- Rev. Issac Clark, who is among the thousands stranded at the New Orleans Convention Center with no food or water

1/8

Sources: AP, Reuters

"They have M-16s and they're locked and loaded," she said. "These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so, and I expect they will."

At the Superdome, group of refugees broke through a line of heavily armed National Guardsmen in a scramble to get on to the buses.

Nearby, about 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at New Orleans Convention Center grew ever more hostile after waiting for buses for days amid the filth and the dead.

Police Chief Eddie Compass said there was such a crush around a squad of 88 officers that they retreated when they went in to check out reports of assaults.

"We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon."

By Thursday evening, 11 hours after the military began evacuating the Superdome, the arena held 10,000 more people than it did at dawn. Evacuees from across the city swelled the crowd to about 30,000 because they believed the arena was the best place to get a ride out of town.

Some of those among the mostly poor crowd had been in the dome for four days without air conditioning, working toilets or a place to bathe. One military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle. The man was arrested.

By late Thursday, the flow of refugees to the Houston Astrodome was temporarily halted after about 11,000 people had arrived -- less than half the estimated 23,000 people expected.

"We've actually reached capacity for the safety and comfort of the people inside there," American Red Cross spokeswoman Dana Allen said. She said people were "packed pretty tight" on the floor.

Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced that Dallas would host 25,000 more refugees at Reunion Arena and 25,000 others would relocate to a San Antonio warehouse at KellyUSA, a city-owned complex that once was home to an Air Force base. Houston estimated as many as 55,000 people who fled the hurricane were staying in area hotels.

The blasts early Friday rocked a chemical storage facility along the river, said Lt. Michael Francis of the Harbor Police. At least two police boats could be seen at the scene and a hazardous material team was on route. Francis did not have any other information.

While floodwaters in New Orleans appeared to stabilize, efforts continued to plug three breaches in the levees that protect this bowl-shaped, below-sea-level city, which is wedged between Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.

Helicopters dropped sandbags into the breach and pilings were being pounded into the mouth of the canal Thursday to close its connection to the lake.

At least seven bodies were scattered outside the convention center, a staging area for those rescued from rooftops, attics and highways. The sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement.

A military helicopter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away.

"There's a lot of very sick people -- elderly ones, infirm ones -- who can't stand this heat, and there's a lot of children who don't have water and basic necessities to survive on," said Daniel Edwards, 47, outside the center. "We need to eat, or drink water at the very least."

An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.

"I don't treat my dog like that," Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. "You can do everything for other countries, but you can't do nothing for your own people."

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said FEMA just learned about the situation at the convention center Thursday and quickly scrambled to provide food, water and medical care and remove the corpses.

The mayor lashed out at the government, saying: "I have no idea what they're doing, but I will tell you this: God is looking down on all this and if they're not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds."

Across the city, law and order broke down, and the rescuers themselves were being shot at.

Tourist Debbie Durso of Washington, Mich., said she asked a police officer for assistance and his response was, "'Go to hell -- it's every man for himself.'"

FEMA officials said some operations had to be suspended in areas where gunfire had broken out.

Outside a looted Rite-Aid drugstore, some people were anxious to show they needed what they were taking. A gray-haired man who would not give his name pulled up his T-shirt to show a surgery scar and explained that he needs pads for incontinence.

"I'm a Christian," he said. "I feel bad going in there."

Hospitals struggled to evacuate critically ill patients who were dying for lack of oxygen, insulin or intravenous fluids. But when some hospitals try to airlift patients, Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan said, "there are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, `You better come get my family.'"

To make matters worse, the chief of the Louisiana State Police said he heard of numerous instances of New Orleans police officers -- many of whom from flooded areas -- turning in their badges.

"They indicated that they had lost everything and didn't feel that it was worth them going back to take fire from looters and losing their lives," Col. Henry Whitehorn said.

Associated Press reporters Adam Nossiter, Brett Martel, Emily Wagster Pettus, Robert Tanner and Mary Foster contributed to this report.

registerthis
09-02-2005, 10:20 AM
I turned on the news this morning, can't remember if it was CNN or MSNBC, and they were interviewing the Mayor of New Orleans and he was absolutely livid about how things have been handled getting immediate aid into the area. Can't say I blame him at all. It got to the point where he broke down in tears at the end of the interview. My heart goes out to him and the rest of people suffering so badly down there.yeah, I read some quotes attributed to him in the Post this morning, he was furious, and IMO has every right to be. The citizens of NO have been let down BIG TIME by the failure of FEMA and other gov't org's to respond properly to this situation.

it's infuriating and embarassing at the same time.

WMR
09-02-2005, 10:24 AM
From Margins of Society to Center of the Tragedy

By DAVID GONZALEZ, The New York Times

(Sept. 2) - The scenes of floating corpses, scavengers fighting for food and desperate throngs seeking any way out of New Orleans have been tragic enough. But for many African-American leaders, there is a growing outrage that many of those still stuck at the center of this tragedy were people who for generations had been pushed to the margins of society.

Residents appeal for help Thursday as they gather at an evacuation staging area along Interstate-10 in Metarie, La.

The victims, they note, were largely black and poor, those who toiled in the background of the tourist havens, living in tumbledown neighborhoods that were long known to be vulnerable to disaster if the levees failed. Without so much as a car or bus fare to escape ahead of time, they found themselves left behind by a failure to plan for their rescue should the dreaded day ever arrive.

"If you know that terror is approaching in terms of hurricanes, and you've already seen the damage they've done in Florida and elsewhere, what in God's name were you thinking?" said the Rev. Calvin O. Butts III, pastor of Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem. "I think a lot of it has to do with race and class. The people affected were largely poor people. Poor, black people."

In the days since neighborhoods and towns along the Gulf Coast were wiped out by the winds and water, there has been a growing sense that race and class are the unspoken markers of who got out and who got stuck. Just as in developing countries where the failures of rural development policies become glaringly clear at times of natural disasters like floods or drought, many national leaders said, some of the United States' poorest cities have been left vulnerable by federal policies.

"No one would have checked on a lot of the black people in these parishes while the sun shined," said Mayor Milton D. Tutwiler of Winstonville, Miss. "So am I surprised that no one has come to help us now? No."

The subject is roiling black-oriented Web sites and message boards, and many black officials say it is a prime subject of conversation around the country. Some African-Americans have described the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina as "our tsunami," while noting that there has yet to be a response equal to that which followed the Asian tragedy.

Roosevelt F. Dorn, the mayor of Inglewood, Calif., and the president of the National Association of Black Mayors, said relief and rescue officials needed to act faster.

"I have a list of black mayors in Mississippi and Alabama who are crying out for help," Mr. Dorn said. "Their cities are gone and they are in despair. And no one has answered their cries."

The Rev. Jesse Jackson said cities had been dismissed by the Bush administration because Mr. Bush received few urban votes.

"Many black people feel that their race, their property conditions and their voting patterns have been a factor in the response," Mr. Jackson said, after meeting with Louisiana officials yesterday. "I'm not saying that myself, but what's self-evident is that you have many poor people without a way out."

In New Orleans, the disaster's impact underscores the intersection of race and class in a city where fully two-thirds of its residents are black and more than a quarter of the city lives in poverty. In the Lower Ninth Ward neighborhood, which was inundated by the floodwaters, more than 98 percent of the residents are black and more than a third live in poverty.

Spencer R. Crew, president and chief executive officer of the national Underground Railroad Freedom Center in Cincinnati, said the aftermath of the hurricane would force people to confront inequality.

"Most cities have a hidden or not always talked about poor population, black and white, and most of the time we look past them," Dr. Crew said. "This is a moment in time when we can't look past them. Their plight is coming to the forefront now. They were the ones less able to hop in a car and less able to drive off."

That disparity has been criticized as a "disgrace" by Charles B. Rangel, the senior Democratic congressman from New York City, who said it was made all the worse by the failure of government officials to have planned.

"I assume the president's going to say he got bad intelligence, Mr. Rangel said, adding that the danger to the levees was clear.

"I think that wherever you see poverty, whether it's in the white rural community or the black urban community, you see that the resources have been sucked up into the war and tax cuts for the rich," he said.

Outside Brooklyn Law School yesterday, a man selling recordings of famous African-Americans was upset at the failure to have prepared for the worst. The man, who said his name was Muhammad Ali, drew a damning conclusion about the failure to protect New Orleans.

"Blacks ain't worth it," he said. "New Orleans is a hopeless case."

Among the messages and essays circulating in cyberspace that lament the lost lives and missed opportunities is one by Mark Naison, a white professor of African-American Studies at Fordham University in the Bronx.

"Is this what the pioneers of the civil rights movement fought to achieve, a society where many black people are as trapped and isolated by their poverty as they were by segregation laws?" Mr. Naison wrote. "If Sept. 11 showed the power of a nation united in response to a devastating attack, Hurricane Katrina reveals the fault lines of a region and a nation, rent by profound social divisions."

That sentiment was shared by members of other minority groups who understand the bizarre equality of poverty.

"We tend to think of natural disasters as somehow even-handed, as somehow random," said Martín Espada, an English professor at the University of Massachusetts and poet of a decidedly leftist political bent who is Puerto Rican. "Yet it has always been thus: poor people are in danger. That is what it means to be poor. It's dangerous to be poor. It's dangerous to be black. It's dangerous to be Latino."

This Sunday there will be prayers. In pews from the Gulf Coast to the Northeast, the faithful will come together and pray for those who lived and those who died. They will seek to understand something that has yet to be fully comprehended.

Some may talk of a divine hand behind all of this. But others have already noted the absence of a human one.

"Everything is God's will," said Charles Steele Jr., the president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in Atlanta. "But there's a certain amount of common sense that God gives to individuals to prepare for certain things."

That means, Mr. Steele said, not waiting until the eve of crisis.

"Most of the people that live in the neighborhoods that were most vulnerable are black and poor," he said. "So it comes down to a lack of sensitivity on the part of people in Washington that you need to help poor folks. It's as simple as that."

Contributing reporting from New York for this article were Andy Newman, William Yardley, Jonathan P. Hicks, Patrick D. Healy, Diane Cardwell, Anemona Hartocollis, Ronald Smothers, Jeff Leeds, Manny Fernandez and Colin Moynihan. Also contributing were Michael Cooper in Albany, Gretchen Ruethling in Chicago, Brenda Goodman in Atlanta and Carolyn Marshall in San Francisco.

09-02-05 07:59 EDT


Copyright © 2005 The New York Times Company.

registerthis
09-02-2005, 10:28 AM
This is a quote from Bush yesterday:

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm. But these levees got breached. And as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded. And now we are having to deal with it and will."

I'm sorry, but that man is a complete and total idiot. It was a category 5 storm, George. The levees were designed to handle a category 3. You do the math.

Blimey.

Dom Heffner
09-02-2005, 10:46 AM
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm. But these levees got breached. And as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded. And now we are having to deal with it and will."

Yeah, no one saw any of this coming in regards to the levees:

The Associated Press, Aug. 31, 2005: "Even as Katrina approached, experts like Louisiana State University's Ivor van Heerden warned of a pending 'incredible environmental disaster.' He predicted the levees would be overwhelmed and much of the city would be turned into a giant, stagnant pool contaminated with debris, sewage and other hazardous materials."

The Houston Chronicle, Aug, 31, 2005: "Local officials said that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection -- including fortifying homes, building up levees and repairing barrier islands -- the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be."

The Associated Press, Aug. 29, 2005: "Experts have warned for years that the levees and pumps that usually keep New Orleans dry have no chance against a direct hit by a Category 5 storm."

M2
09-02-2005, 10:48 AM
It seems to me that while the feds (and this goes well beyond the President) mouthed the words "biggest natural disaster in U.S. history," they failed to understand that it would require a response unlike anything they'd marshalled before.

A lot of what I've been hearing from federal administrators the past two days is that they've enacted their existing plans. Problem is that they're existing plans weren't made to to respond to a city that's been wiped off the face of the earth. What they needed to do (in hindsight) was mobilize EVERYTHING, in particular most of the U.S.-based military. They simply haven't put enough people on the scene or enough resources in those people's hands.

registerthis
09-02-2005, 10:58 AM
Yeah, no one saw any of this coming in regards to the levees:

The Associated Press, Aug. 31, 2005: "Even as Katrina approached, experts like Louisiana State University's Ivor van Heerden warned of a pending 'incredible environmental disaster.' He predicted the levees would be overwhelmed and much of the city would be turned into a giant, stagnant pool contaminated with debris, sewage and other hazardous materials."

The Houston Chronicle, Aug, 31, 2005: "Local officials said that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection -- including fortifying homes, building up levees and repairing barrier islands -- the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be."

The Associated Press, Aug. 29, 2005: "Experts have warned for years that the levees and pumps that usually keep New Orleans dry have no chance against a direct hit by a Category 5 storm."...and that doesn't even include the seemingly countless predictions for disaster that were given out during the last 20 years or so.

but, yeah, aside from that, no-one saw this coming. :rolleyes:

savafan
09-02-2005, 11:06 AM
Do you think that if this had happened in, say Los Angeles, and the refugees were mostly rich and caucasion that the response for aid would be this slow?

LoganBuck
09-02-2005, 11:06 AM
Who said anything about all? I'm sure all the people suffering right now would love to hear you say that money put towards hurricane planning and prevention is a "waste".

Those very people may have indeed said that before the storm. Too many people live for today. Those same people may have critized levee improvement, as money that should be spent on social programs.

RBA
09-02-2005, 11:10 AM
Do you think that if this had happened in, say Los Angeles, and the refugees were mostly rich and caucasion that the response for aid would be this slow?


That's a catch 22 there isn't it? After this poor response, if a natural disaster hits a mostly rich and causcasion area, and the response is top-notch, there will be the perception.

registerthis
09-02-2005, 11:51 AM
Do you think that if this had happened in, say Los Angeles, and the refugees were mostly rich and caucasion that the response for aid would be this slow?If the area hit contained mostly rich, affluent folks, they likely wouldn't have stayed for the storm, so the casualties and horrific situation New Orleans has right now probably wouldn't be occuring.

Remember, all the rich folks in NO got the h-e-dubs outta town.

Steve4192
09-02-2005, 12:15 PM
Do you think that if this had happened in, say Los Angeles, and the refugees were mostly rich and caucasion that the response for aid would be this slow?
The whole point is, people with the means to get outta Dodge grab the first stagecoach heading out of town. Natural disasters will ALWAYS have a disproportionate effect on the poor because they lack the means to just pick up and leave their homes. If you don't have a car, and don't have the money for a bus ticket, and don't have the money to stay in a motel, you are pretty much going to be stuck riding out the storm in the Superdome.

savafan
09-02-2005, 12:23 PM
Oh, I know and understand all of this. I was speaking on a hypothetical.

Roy Tucker
09-02-2005, 12:50 PM
Interesting article from May 23 of this year...

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=9754