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BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 03:30 PM
Here on an "I believe" Friday.................... :sleep:

I believe all those folks who said it was premature to hand third base over to EE were absolutely correct. Sure we all love EE. How can you have animosity for a young guy who looks to be quiet, mild mannered, hard working etc..etc....and just trying to make it? You can't. However, I BELIEVE there is a group of people who were absolutely correct.

The book on EE is clearly (as some saw early on) that he has bat speed and will make enough contact but he has a big striding big swing which is engineered for hammering balls off of or over left field fences.

The big leagues is not the place for on the job training if it doesn't have to be. As plenty in the know have stated previously it is far easier to coach a guy how to pull inside pitches and add power to game than it is to teach a hitter to use the whole field. Old habits die hard. EE should be in the minors now and stay there until he becomes a hitter who can and will use all fields. This team does not need another Brandon Larson.

Furthermore though he is not BJ Upton in the field, he's far from solid. And you don't get extra points for throwing guys out at first from your knees.

Have a nice day. I believe that is all I have to say for now.


______________________
Chris Denorfria Fan Club President and Founder
BadFundamentals

lollipopcurve
09-16-2005, 03:42 PM
He's had a handful of hits to right. Probably a higher percentage than Griffey has had to left.

He's a little raw at the plate, but I feel he'll improve steadily. Nothing more for him to prove at AAA. (Remember, Dunn hit .215 once.)

His defense at third has been occasionally outstanding. He's made some errors, but he's made up for those by making several tremendous plays (plays Randa could not have made). I see an above-average 3rd baseman already.

NJReds
09-16-2005, 03:48 PM
His home hitting chart doesn't really back up the contention that he's a dead pull hitter:

Chart (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=429665&statType=1)

But I know you don't trust these charts, particularly when they don't back up your statements.

KronoRed
09-16-2005, 03:49 PM
He'll be fine, he's a rookie for crying out loud, rookies coming up and killing the ball and actually keeping it up are rare.

Joseph
09-16-2005, 03:51 PM
I've been impressed by him personally. I believe he's the Reds best option for 3B next season.

traderumor
09-16-2005, 03:53 PM
______________________
Chris Denorfria Fan Club President and Founder
BadFundamentalsYou might want to spell his name right before ordering the letterhead :evil:

CTA513
09-16-2005, 03:53 PM
I believe that is all I have to say for now.



:pray:

pedro
09-16-2005, 03:56 PM
and yet, despite his obvious struggles so far, EE has out OPS'd Randa since the trade. (although with a pretty poor OPS)

fielding wise Randa has 5 errors and 5 DP's and EE has 9 errors and 9 DP's since the trade.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 03:59 PM
His home hitting chart doesn't really back up the contention that he's a dead pull hitter:

Chart (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=429665&statType=1)

But I know you don't trust these charts, particularly when they don't back up your statements.
grrrrrr....I wish web filters allowed my access to hitting charts right now :bang:

NJ you really need to spring for the EI package before commenting on these types of discussions. He has a yank/pull swing. This is why he gets steady diet of off speed and breaking pitches on outside corner accompanied by fastballs busting in and fastballs away. Those translate to left side of infield groundouts and some flyouts. You'll see some flyouts/popouts to right side as well. These are a function of a guy who DOESN'T effectively go the other way.

Yes, I recall a hit or two to center and right center and a hit or two to right but these are DEFINITELY the exceptions....

have a nice weekend nj :beerme: I repeat my offer of this year for next year. I'll go halves with you on Extra Innings package. And as for your excuse that you don't have "time". If you have time to listen than you have time to watch.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 04:00 PM
You might want to spell his name right before ordering the letterhead :evil:
that's my George Grande spelling thank you. :thumbup:

although, I think someone finally got on george about it.................

OldRightHander
09-16-2005, 04:01 PM
:pray:

That's getting dangerously close to violating the religion or politics rule. :nono:

Chip R
09-16-2005, 04:03 PM
Hi, Marty! :wave:

lollipopcurve
09-16-2005, 04:05 PM
NJ you really need to spring for the EI package before commenting on these types of discussions.

I have the EI package too, but a hitting chart can show me just as much about a guys' ability to use all fields as my own observations can. EdE tries to pull too much at times, yes, but he does put the ball in play to right, too. He'll be fine in that regard, I think.

NJReds
09-16-2005, 04:07 PM
grrrrrr....I wish web filters allowed my access to hitting charts right now :bang:

NJ you really need to spring for the EI package before commenting on these types of discussions. He has a yank/pull swing. This is why he gets steady diet of off speed and breaking pitches on outside corner accompanied by fastballs busting in and fastballs away. Those translate to left side of infield groundouts and some flyouts. You'll see some flyouts/popouts to right side as well. These are a function of a guy who DOESN'T effectively go the other way.

Yes, I recall a hit or two to center and right center and a hit or two to right but these are DEFINITELY the exceptions....

have a nice weekend nj :beerme: I repeat my offer of this year for next year. I'll go halves with you on Extra Innings package. And as for your excuse that you don't have "time". If you have time to listen than you have time to watch.

You used the chart in an Dunn arguement the other day, so I though you now approved of chart use. There are some guys who use charts and watch a lot of games that think EE is ready...I'll trust their judgement.

Sorry my friend, but I have a family and can't watch 162 games, take notes and annoy others by belaboring a losing arguement. I appreciate your offer of a donation, but I don't need the money. I suggest Katrina Relief if you're looking for a charity.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 04:07 PM
and yet, despite his obvious struggles so far, EE has out OPS'd Randa since the trade.

fielding wise Randa has 5 errors and 5 DP's and EE has 9 errors and 9 DP's since the trade.
Please.................EE had 9 errors in 43 games. You think 30+ errors from a third baseman is acceptable?

Plenty of guys have learned to reel in an erratic arm. I wouldn't be surprised if he can do that. And he appears to be pretty good with the glove. So it's not the defense that is the longer run concern necessarily.

A right handed hitter of his type will have to use the whole field however. And he could be doing that in the minors while Reds benefit from a solid veteran third base presence. Otherwise, we'll have another Jason LaRue bat. You can't have Jason LaRue offensive numbers playing third base.

(not to mention, with Randa at third in his second year you really might have been in a position to move Casey if a taker could be found. Without Randa though you can't have an infield full of unproven players......keeps you married to Casey)

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 04:12 PM
You used the chart in an Dunn arguement the other day, so I though you now approved of chart use. There are some guys who use charts and watch a lot of games that think EE is ready...I'll trust their judgement.

Sorry my friend, but I have a family and can't watch 162 games, take notes and annoy others by belaboring a losing arguement. I appreciate your offer of a donation, but I don't need the money. I suggest Katrina Relief if you're looking for a charity.
check back tonite Frank Sinatra. I'll check hitting chart tonite and have a response for you. Until then enjoy your .230 hitting can't miss prospect who reds got in a TRADE. No reason he couldn't have been traded along to another team or allowed to remain in minors until he mastered OPPOSITE FIELD hitting.

25 doubles and 25 HRs in the minors yanked to left off minor league breaking pitches and minor league fastballs is one thing. Putting up those same numbers but using the whole field in process is a whole different thing and translates much better to likelihood for major league success. He still had more he could have accomplished at AAA.

cincyinco
09-16-2005, 04:14 PM
Good lord, knocking on EE when he's got not even quite a 1/2 year under his belt yet. He's young. He knocked the ball around in AAA. He will continue to make the adjustments. He's looked brilliant at times, bad at others. Just like any young player will(Hello Dunn, Kearns, WMP, Claussen, etc..).

The key will be his ability to learn and adjust, just as it is with any ball player.

He has shown the ability to adjust in the minors. He struggled in AA his first go around, but his second? He succeeded. Just because he might be struggling now, does not mean he will in the future. I fail to see the harm in giving him the experience now, and trading Randa for 2 decent arms that we desperately need, when we already knew we were out of the race. This experience can be invaluable for young EE, and next year, he may put up some very nice numbers for a "rookie".

M2
09-16-2005, 04:15 PM
Note the Reds' ERA since Encarnacion arrived. He makes a sick number of plays at the hot corner and allows FeLo to play take two steps to his left in the team's standard defensive positioning (which cuts down on hits up the middle and increases DP opportunities).

He's struggled on the OB side of things, but he's on a 40 double, 20 homer pace in the power department. His .247 secondary average ain't too bad. All he's got to do is hit about .250 to get his OPS up to .750. He's exactly one good week away from that with 16 games to play.

He needs to make a few adjustments. Big deal. This has been a promising start from the kid and you can be sure he'll come back next year ready to shift it up a gear.

NJReds
09-16-2005, 04:16 PM
check back tonite Frank Sinatra. I'll check hitting chart tonite and have a response for you. Until then enjoy your .230 hitting can't miss prospect who reds got in a TRADE. No reason he couldn't have been traded along to another team or allowed to remain in minors until he mastered OPPOSITE FIELD hitting.

25 doubles and 25 HRs in the minors yanked to left off minor league breaking pitches and minor league fastballs is one thing. Putting up those same numbers but using the whole field in process is a whole different thing and translates much better to likelihood for major league success. He still had more he could have accomplished at AAA.

This just confirms to me that if the Reds had your messiah, Jose Guillen, as a rookie, you'd be all over the boards killing him for his dead-pull swing, his bad defense, K's and lack of clutch hitting.

Well...at least you have someone to keep your mind off Dunn.

westofyou
09-16-2005, 04:17 PM
http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/chart1.gif

OldRightHander
09-16-2005, 04:19 PM
There are way too many people injecting facts into this thread. What we need are more subjective opinions.

pedro
09-16-2005, 04:20 PM
Please.................EE had 9 errors in 43 games. You think 30+ errors from a third baseman is acceptable?

Plenty of guys have learned to reel in an erratic arm. I wouldn't be surprised if he can do that. And he appears to be pretty good with the glove. So it's not the defense that is the longer run concern necessarily.

A right handed hitter of his type will have to use the whole field however. And he could be doing that in the minors while Reds benefit from a solid veteran third base presence. Otherwise, we'll have another Jason LaRue bat. You can't have Jason LaRue offensive numbers playing third base.

(not to mention, with Randa at third in his second year you really might have been in a position to move Casey if a taker could be found. Without Randa though you can't have an infield full of unproven players......keeps you married to Casey)

I agree EE's made too many errors, but he'll work that out over time IMO.

As for your comment about how a player can't have Jason Larue offensive numbers and play 3b. Sure you can, how else would Joe Randa have managed to stay in the league for the last 14 years?

Red Leader
09-16-2005, 04:23 PM
The more I think back, the more I see EE's future to be similar to Aramis Ramirez. Ramirez struggled with the bat in the early years, and with the glove. They stuck with him for the most part. Granted, he was traded away a couple years ago when he got expensive, or was about to become expensive, but he's turned into quite the offensive force when playing healthy. I see EE as having a future similar to that. Maybe not as much power as Ramirez, but a similar type player.

westofyou
09-16-2005, 04:24 PM
Sure you can, how else would Joe Randa have managed to stay in the leagure for the last 14 years?

.685
.713
.727

Joe's last 3 months, over 250 PA's

Penny stock player at this point, the one thing that O'Brien did was inking and selling him.

lollipopcurve
09-16-2005, 04:27 PM
EdE is a human highlight film at 3B. I honestly cannot remember ever seeing a thirdbaseman as acrobatic and quick as he is. There aren't many players I take a special pleasure in watching on defense, but he is one -- and he's just starting out.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 04:32 PM
see westofyou post nj (frank) regarding hitting chart.

EE has 14 hits in GABP. Three (3) are to right field. As I noted, you see those right field flyouts because that is a player not effectively using right field. All those left side infield groundouts is what you get when you have a dead pull hitter.

And of course you'll see his power pretty much exclusively to left field.......

cincyinco
09-16-2005, 04:38 PM
see westofyou post nj (frank) regarding hitting chart.

EE has 14 hits in GABP. Three (3) are to right field. As I noted, you see those right field flyouts because that is a player not effectively using right field. All those left side infield groundouts is what you get when you have a dead pull hitter.

And of course you'll see his power pretty much exclusively to left field.......

What, do the other 2 to center not count as using the whole field? so thats 5 of 14 hits or more than 1/3 of his hits going the other way. I fail to see your point.

OldRightHander
09-16-2005, 04:43 PM
What I also see is a rookie with a few holes in his game, but with a whole lot of upside. Is he a perfect player? By no means, but he's young and he's still improving. How often does someone come up from the minors already completely polished with no room to improve. If we think we're going to leave him at AAA until he's developed into the perfect third baseman, we'd never call him up. The competition at AAA is only so good and sooner or later any player is not going to take his game to the next level until he starts playing against the next level of competition. How much better was he going to get against AAA pitching? We should lay off criticizing him now. If five years from now he hasn't improved any, then maybe there's room to criticize, but for now we should get off his back and just enjoy watching him progress as a player.

cincyinco
09-16-2005, 04:44 PM
What I also see is a rookie with a few holes in his game, but with a whole lot of upside. Is he a perfect player? By no means, but he's young and he's still improving. How often does someone come up from the minors already completely polished with no room to improve. If we think we're going to leave him at AAA until he's developed into the perfect third baseman, we'd never call him up. The competition at AAA is only so good and sooner or later any player is not going to take his game to the next level until he starts playing against the next level of competition. How much better was he going to get against AAA pitching? We should lay off criticizing him now. If five years from now he hasn't improved any, then maybe there's room to criticize, but for now we should get off his back and just enjoy watching him progress as a player.

:beerme: :thumbup:

Well said ORH. He's not going to be infallable. But was calling him up and pawning of ol' Joe Randa when we did for 2 decent arms the right call? I say yes. Especially given this years trade market. Joe Randa is not the long term answer. EE is. Bottom line.

westofyou
09-16-2005, 04:49 PM
In 1948 Hank Sauer set the Reds HR record with 35. A RH dead pull hitter Hank came to Spring Training in 1949 and was told by new manager Bucky Walters that he wanted him to learn to hit to RF, it didn't work... eventually Sauer was allowed to take his old approach. A month later Giles traded him and Baumholtz to the Cubs, the reason according to Walters, "I couldn't make an all around hitter out of you."


1950-1954
RIGHT HANDED HITTERS

EXTRA BASE HITS YEAR EBH
1 Hank Sauer 1952 71
3 Hank Sauer 1950 66
5 Hank Sauer 1954 60
6 Hank Sauer 1951 53
16 Hank Sauer 1953 40

HOMERUNS YEAR HR
1 Hank Sauer 1954 41
2 Hank Sauer 1952 37
4 Hank Sauer 1950 32
5 Hank Sauer 1951 30
T9 Hank Sauer 1953 19

Hence the Reds got this from RH hitters after Sauer left, then like the cursed franchise they often are they traded Adcock for Rocky Bridges, a man know more for quotes than his game.

RIGHT HANDED HITTERS
EXTRA BASE HITS YEAR EBH
1 Jim Greengrass 1954 58
2 Jim Greengrass 1953 49
3 Wally Post 1954 42
4 Joe Adcock 1952 39
5 Joe Adcock 1951 30
HOMERUNS YEAR HR
1 Jim Greengrass 1954 27
2 Jim Greengrass 1953 20
3 Wally Post 1954 18
4 Joe Adcock 1952 13
5 Joe Adcock 1951 10
Moral of the story, not everyone is a mallable player.

paintmered
09-16-2005, 04:51 PM
The big leagues is not the place for on the job training if it doesn't have to be.

It's September and the Reds are out of it. That sounds like the perfect time for job training at the big league level to me.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 04:52 PM
We've seen it to the extreme with Pena and Larson. We've seen it to lesser extent with LaRue and others and now EE. This organization is again evidently dismissing this fundamental aspect of hitting (using whole field - particularly for RH hitters ! ! ) at minor league level as either unimportant or just not even a consideration.

No reason EE couldn't have been given marching orders to improve in this area at AAA. He is certainly young enough that there was time to wait. Instead, he is handed job at major league level with this obvious, glaring shortcoming in game.

Thank god for Chris Denorfia. It makes me think that either somehow some way something may be changing OR it's just dumb luck randomness.....either way, it proves it is possible...................

M2
09-16-2005, 04:52 PM
At Encarnacion's current rate, he'd commit 34 errors in 1,400 innings at 3B. That's 20 more errors than Randa would commit at his current rate. Then again, compare their Cincinnati range factors and Encarnacion would also make 93 more plays. Let me see, 93 more outs vs. 20 less errors. Golly, I'm having a hard time figuring out which one I'd rather have.

I'm with lollipop, the kid makes my eyes bug out with some of the plays he makes. The Reds haven't a guy with those kinds of skills at 3B since 1921.

cincyinco
09-16-2005, 04:56 PM
Thank god for Chris Denorfia. It makes me think that either somehow some way something may be changing OR it's just dumb luck randomness.....either way, it proves it is possible...................

LOL, you're going to compare EE to Denorfia? Wow.

I think you just lost what little credibility you may have had. Denorfia has a lot more odds to defy than EE does IMO.

Denorfia ceiling = 4th outfielder on a quality team...
EE celing = starting 3b on a championship team with all star potential.

OldRightHander
09-16-2005, 05:00 PM
At Encarnacion's current rate, he'd commit 34 errors in 1,400 innings at 3B. That's 20 more errors than Randa would commit at his current rate. Then again, compare their Cincinnati range factors and Encarnacion would also make 93 more plays. Let me see, 93 more outs vs. 20 less errors. Golly, I'm having a hard time figuring out which one I'd rather have.

Come on. We all know that ground ball base hits are better to give up than errors, even though they both result in a runner on base. The hits don't count against your fielding percentage, and everyone knows that fielding percentage is the best indicator of defensive skill. ;)

traderumor
09-16-2005, 05:01 PM
Ted Williams was such a dead pull hitter some team played the Williams shift. And we know he wasn't any good. I betcha someone somewhere told him he needed to spray the ball more. I can't type what I bet he said to that.

EE seems like a player to count on in the middle of the lineup for years to come and also shows great promise in the field. Considering his age, I really thought the Brandon Larson talk would end after the first few weeks since the Randa trade. The only similarity I see between the two are that they both played third base at Louisville.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 05:04 PM
LOL, you're going to compare EE to Denorfia? Wow.

I think you just lost what little credibility you may have had. Denorfia has a lot more odds to defy than EE does IMO.

Denorfia ceiling = 4th outfielder on a quality team...
EE celing = starting 3b on a championship team with all star potential.
it's ok......I'll explain since you obviously missed the point and instead just made a senseless attack.

POINT is, Denorfia is a right handed hitter who clearly comes to plate ready and able to USE WHOLE FIELD. Yes, his lack of tools make him appear to ultimately have a not too high ceiling but that same thing could have been said of Pete Rose. We'll see in time.............

paintmered
09-16-2005, 05:11 PM
it's ok......I'll explain since you obviously missed the point and instead just made a senseless attack.

POINT is, Denorfia is a right handed hitter who clearly comes to plate ready and able to USE WHOLE FIELD. Yes, his lack of tools make him appear to ultimately have a not too high ceiling but that same thing could have been said of Pete Rose. We'll see in time.............


Denorfia has 8 ABs in his ML career. You can't possibly tell me that you know he's going to be some uber-disciplined hitter after only 8 ABs.

Cyclone792
09-16-2005, 05:23 PM
Guhhhhhhhhhh ...

westofyou
09-16-2005, 05:30 PM
25 year old with 228 AA ab's... I'm supposed to get excited about that?



Year Team Lea G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG E


2004 Chattanooga AA 61 221 30 55 10 2 6 27 30 42 5 2 .340 .394 .249 2
Potomac A 75 269 52 84 18 4 11 51 48 66 10 6 .416 .532 .312 4

2003 Potomac A 128 470 60 111 10 5 4 39 54 106 20 7 .317 .304 .236 5

2002 Chattanooga AA 3 7 0 3 2 1 0 0 2 1 0 0 .556 1.100 .429 0
Dayton A 3 10 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 .000 .000 .000 0
GCL Reds R 57 200 38 68 9 2 0 19 31 23 18 8 .425 .405 .340 4

TOTAL
AA 64 228 30 58 12 3 6 27 32 43 5 2 .347 .412 .254 2
A 206 749 114 195 28 9 15 90 102 175 30 13 .350 .382 .260 9
R 57 200 38 68 9 2 0 19 31 23 18 8 .425 .405 .340 4

TeamBoone
09-16-2005, 05:37 PM
Could someone please explain this thread's title to me?

Also, is BF's post a parady of Lance, or a wanna be of Lance, or just annoying?

Matt700wlw
09-16-2005, 05:40 PM
Could someone please explain this thread's title to me?

Also, is BF's post a parady of Lance, or a wanna be of Lance, or just annoying?

On Wednesday's, Lance does "I Believe" Wednesdays, where he and callers come strong on what they believe in the world of sports

Red Leader
09-16-2005, 05:42 PM
On Wednesday's, Lance does "I Believe" Wednesdays, where he and callers come strong on what they believe in the world of sports

It's Friday, so I'm guessing that out of all of the options TB gave, it fits the annoying on the best.

cincyinco
09-16-2005, 05:58 PM
Denorfia has 8 ABs in his ML career. You can't possibly tell me that you know he's going to be some uber-disciplined hitter after only 8 ABs.

8 at bats, and 3 hits.

Yes, great way to back up your stance there BF.




Somehow, I dont think its ME thats missing the point..

KronoRed
09-16-2005, 06:12 PM
It's Friday, so I'm guessing that out of all of the options TB gave, it fits the annoying on the best.

Unless Lance IS BF :eek:

wheels
09-16-2005, 06:24 PM
I think BF has a bias against young talented players.

His theories on Dunn have been totally debunked.

He's not able to call Lopez FLop anymore.

Edwin's an amazing talent, so that makes him the new target.

He seems to like Denorfia alot, which makes me wonder if he wasn't a big Mike Frank fan back in '97.

Btw....BF: What difference does it make if a guy's a pull hitter? Extra bases hold no biases, so why should you?

Caveat Emperor
09-16-2005, 06:27 PM
Anyone who wants to dog on Edwin Encarnacion after 166 Major League ABs just needs to look at another Reds player's stats at age 21 after 177 ABs:



Felipe Lopez at age 21 in 2001 (TOR):
49(G) 177(AB) 21(R) 46(H) 5(2B) 4(3B) 5(HR) 23(RBI) 12(BB) 39(K) 4(SB) 3(CS) .260(AVG) .304(OBP) .418(SLG) .722(OPS)

Edwin Encarnacion at age 22 in 2005:
54(G) 166(AB) 18(R) 37(H) 13(2B) 0(3B) 6(HR) 19(RBI) 13(BB) 46(K) 2(SB) 0(CS) .223(AVG) .283(OBP) .410(SLG) .693(OPS)

Maybe it's a TAD bit early to be giving up on Encarnacion or passing judgments?

wheels
09-16-2005, 06:35 PM
Anyone who wants to dog on Edwin Encarnacion after 166 Major League ABs just needs to look at another Reds player's stats at age 21 after 177 ABs:



Felipe Lopez at age 21 in 2001 (TOR):
49(G) 177(AB) 21(R) 46(H) 5(2B) 4(3B) 5(HR) 23(RBI) 12(BB) 39(K) 4(SB) 3(CS) .260(AVG) .304(OBP) .418(SLG) .722(OPS)

Edwin Encarnacion at age 22 in 2005:
54(G) 166(AB) 18(R) 37(H) 13(2B) 0(3B) 6(HR) 19(RBI) 13(BB) 46(K) 2(SB) 0(CS) .223(AVG) .283(OBP) .410(SLG) .693(OPS)

Maybe it's a TAD bit early to be giving up on Encarnacion or passing judgments?


You're right, but it doesn't preclude people from doing it.

I submit one DunnHater as evidence.

paulrichjr
09-16-2005, 06:39 PM
Did I miss something and the Reds are hot in a pennant race so much so that only a foolish team would put a rookie at 3B to learn the position while in the bigs? They are out of it!!

What EdE needs is time playing regularly in the bigs. DanO did very well by signing Randa to start the season and giving EdE a chance to get a little more time in AAA.

Chip R
09-16-2005, 06:53 PM
No name calling, WilyMo.

Raisor
09-16-2005, 07:14 PM
My cat's breath smells like catfood.

flyer85
09-16-2005, 07:33 PM
I thought somebody drove a stake through his heart?

WMR
09-16-2005, 07:34 PM
No name calling, WilyMo.

My apologies, Chip.

BF:

http://home.actlab.utexas.edu/~lveale/ctest%20dummy.jpg

Raisor
09-16-2005, 07:41 PM
I thought somebody drove a stake through his heart?

Buffy?

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 08:54 PM
hmmmmm.......The LITTLE THINGS that don't show up in a player's OPS or RC..........

In the span of TWO INNINGS, an errant throw from Reds third baseman pulls starting first baseman off bag and into a collision and subsequent injury. Bottom of same inning, Chris Denorfia comes in and singles on first pitch to RIGHT CENTER then in bottom of inning makes diving catch in left field.

hmmmm.......Denorfia, a player who in just a handful of games has shown solid eye at plate and ability to use opposite field, why is it not surprising to see him also be fundamentally sound in the outfield? Similarly, Reds third baseman who has shown inablity to use the opposite field at the plate (basic fundamentals) has also shown lackings in fundamentals of fielding............

When the Reds stop trying to shortcut/big swing their way to wins and get back to the FUNDAMENTALS and yes, little things....they will again have a chance to contend for a pennant.

Boss-Hog
09-16-2005, 08:57 PM
hmmmmm.......The LITTLE THINGS that don't show up in a player's OPS or RC..........

In the span of TWO INNINGS, an errant throw from Reds third baseman pulls starting first baseman off bag and into a collision and subsequent injury. Bottom of same inning, Chris Denorfia comes in and singles on first pitch to RIGHT CENTER then in bottom of inning makes diving catch in left field.

hmmmm.......Denorfia, a player who in just a handful of games has shown solid eye at plate and ability to use opposite field, why is it not surprising to see him also be fundamentally sound in the outfield? Similarly, Reds third baseman who has shown inablity to use the opposite field at the plate (basic fundamentals) has also shown lackings in fundamentals of fielding............

When the Reds stop trying to shortcut/big swing their way to wins and get back to the FUNDAMENTALS and yes, little things....they will again have a chance to contend for a pennant. Do the "little things" include fixing arguably the worst pitching staff in baseball?

Aronchis
09-16-2005, 09:01 PM
EE struggles when he moves up a level. But he always makes solid yearly gains, in otherwords, look for a improved player by next spring.

pedro
09-16-2005, 09:06 PM
The "little things" include having little to no statistical evidence to back up your anecdotal arguements and making fundamentally bad posts based on conjecture and opinion.

Honestly I hope Denofria turns out to be great. I do. I'd love it if the Reds had a real CF and could move KG to a corner OF position, but I think it's comical to proclaim him the savior after 3 games.

westofyou
09-16-2005, 09:07 PM
Chris Stynes and Jon Nunnely did the "little things" back in 1997.

That worked out well.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 09:08 PM
Do the "little things" include fixing arguably the worst pitching staff in baseball?
They made the effort last year - brought in the new faces and spent the money. They just seem to have brought the wrong faces in several cases.

When Reds stop setting new marks in baseball history for strikeouts every year and become better with hitting/fielding fundamentals then yes, pitching will no doubt improve just by association.....................................

We'll start seeing pitchers from other teams come to Cincy and instead of going up in flames, we'll see them pitching closer to what they are capable of doing. Funny how these things are connected in team sports - not as independent of one another as one might think.

westofyou
09-16-2005, 09:09 PM
When Reds stop setting new marks in baseball history for strikeouts every year and become better with hitting/fielding fundamentals then yes, pitching will no doubt improve just by association.....................................

The flying spaghetti monster of baseball.

wheels
09-16-2005, 09:12 PM
They made the effort last year - brought in the new faces and spent the money. They just seem to have brought the wrong faces in several cases.

When Reds stop setting new marks in baseball history for strikeouts every year and become better with hitting/fielding fundamentals then yes, pitching will no doubt improve just by association.....................................

We'll start seeing pitchers from other teams come to Cincy and instead of going up in flames, we'll see them pitching closer to what they are capable of doing. Funny how these things are connected in team sports - not as independent of one another as one might think.

What pitcher wouldn't want to pitch with one of the league's top offenses to back him up?

Btw....You still haven't answered the question of the relevance of "using all fields".

Do extra bases discriminate?

pedro
09-16-2005, 09:12 PM
When the Reds strike out less, their pitching will get better.

That's BRILLIANT!

No doubt the Reds need better D to help the pitching, but offense has nothing to do with the success of pitching (other than W/L).

pedro
09-16-2005, 09:13 PM
http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg

M2
09-16-2005, 09:19 PM
The Reds will win games when they put a more talented team on the field. Encarnacion's going to be a big part of that. Denorfia might be too. Both are slashing, multiple skills players.

M2
09-16-2005, 09:23 PM
http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg

Arrrrrrh, they've purloined our booty and keelhauled the planet.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 09:23 PM
The Reds will win games when they put a more talented team on the field. Encarnacion's going to be a big part of that. Denorfia might be too. Both are slashing, multiple skills players.
Oh really? if you say so..........

Also, thanks for this private message to me...... "You are, quite simply, the most baseball-inept poster who's ever come to this board. I made the mistake of clicking open your post and the level of idiocy in every sentence you type is astounding."

Not only was your message clearly factually incorrect it was also rude and mean spirited. Seeing those types of communication help to remind me what I'm dealing with when discussing things with people like you.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 09:26 PM
Btw....You still haven't answered the question of the relevance of "using all fields".

You probably wouldn't get it. Yes, there are exceptions (Ted Williams etc...) but "using all fields", "going with the pitch", "hitting ball where it is pitched" is one of the fundamentals of hitting. It is along the same lines as the cliche "take what they're giving you" etc.. etc.........it is more about "process" then results so really no direct relationship with OPS or RC either so I suspect you would probably dismiss it as irrelevant.

OnBaseMachine
09-16-2005, 09:28 PM
When Reds stop setting new marks in baseball history for strikeouts every year and become better with hitting/fielding fundamentals then yes, pitching will no doubt improve just by association.....................................


I'm sorry but :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:.

Hilarious. Too funny.

WMR
09-16-2005, 09:29 PM
Also, thanks for this private message to me...... "You are, quite simply, the most baseball-inept poster who's ever come to this board. I made the mistake of clicking open your post and the level of idiocy in every sentence you type is astounding."




M2 = http://www.scripting.com/images/timePersonOfTheCentury.gif

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 09:32 PM
OH, thank you KronoRed.....just FYI to everyone, evidently KronoRed just created a new rule. KronoRed said to me in a private message,

KronoRed "Don't post Privates Messages "

I have my own idea for a rule KronoRed...before littering up my inbox with rude comments, know that anything you post to me may end up on public forum if I decide to post it. In other words, assume no confidentiality when private messaging rude comments to me.

KronoRed
09-16-2005, 09:34 PM
:lol:

You're funny :D

KronoRed
09-16-2005, 09:35 PM
Also, get your facts straight

That wasn't a PM.

Smarty ;)

OnBaseMachine
09-16-2005, 09:37 PM
Anybody that negs BF is my hero. You da man, KR! :)

M2
09-16-2005, 09:37 PM
Also, thanks for this private message to me...... "You are, quite simply, the most baseball-inept poster who's ever come to this board. I made the mistake of clicking open your post and the level of idiocy in every sentence you type is astounding."

Actually that was part of the mandatory comments field in the neg I handed you, not a private message.

Though since you want to make that part of a public discussion. You're like the Redszone equivalent of the "We don't get French benefits?" Fedex commercial guy. You are not just constantly wrong. You are wrong in ocean-sized amounts.

We are all worse off for your having posted here.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 09:41 PM
Actually that was part of the mandatory comments field in the neg I handed you, not a private message.

Though since you want to make that part of a public discussion. You're like the Redszone equivalent of the "We don't get French benefits?" Fedex commercial guy. You are not just constantly wrong. You are wrong in ocean-sized amounts.

We are all worse off for your having posted here.
Oh really? well coming from you M2 that means alot.......or not.

But please if it makes you feel better to attack me feel free. Just do it publicly here please rather than in your secret handshake star trek private message. Have the guts to stand behind publicly what it is you want to communicate. ok? great........fun talking with you again. Have a great weekend.

M2
09-16-2005, 09:45 PM
Oh really? well coming from you M2 that means alot.......or not.

But please if it makes you feel better to attack me feel free. Just do it publicly here please rather than in your secret handshake star trek private message. Have the guts to stand behind publicly what it is you want to communicate. ok? great........fun talking with you again. Have a great weekend.

Attack? It was a neg for an incredibly awful post. That's what negs are for. If I could I'd neg you again for having the incomprehensibly bad taste to bring it up in the baseball forum.

And I think I've been pretty direct in this thread about communicating just how clueless you are when it comes to the game of baseball.

Reds Nd2
09-16-2005, 09:45 PM
OH, thank you KronoRed.....just FYI to everyone, evidently KronoRed just created a new rule. KronoRed said to me in a private message,

KronoRed "Don't post Privates Messages "

I have my own idea for a rule KronoRed...before littering up my inbox with rude comments, know that anything you post to me may end up on public forum if I decide to post it. In other words, assume no confidentiality when private messaging rude comments to me.

I guess the idea of private messages is lost on you as well?

Reds Nd2
09-16-2005, 09:48 PM
Anybody that negs BF is my hero. You da man, KR! :)

I can't. I've negged him too recently and have to spread around the rep first.

OnBaseMachine
09-16-2005, 09:51 PM
I can't. I've negged him too recently and have to spread around the rep first.

Same here.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 09:58 PM
Attack? It was a neg for an incredibly awful post. That's what negs are for. If I could I'd neg you again for having the incomprehensibly bad taste to bring it up in the baseball forum.

And I think I've been pretty direct in this thread about communicating just how clueless you are when it comes to the game of baseball.
Again, thank you. You are clearly a brilliant baseball mind. I am better for just being in the same thread as you.

Anything else now M2? Are we done?

Ok....well I'm going to go read up on baseball as much as I can. I heard there's a guy out there Bob James I think? I might even pick up one of his books (well if they have it in paperback I can't afford hardback). I'll read up as much as I can though. Maybe I could ask you if I have any questions? You seem to know more about baseball than anyone I've ever seen.

Again, thanks......nice talking with you again.

RFS62
09-16-2005, 09:58 PM
Oh really? if you say so..........

Also, thanks for this private message to me...... "You are, quite simply, the most baseball-inept poster who's ever come to this board. I made the mistake of clicking open your post and the level of idiocy in every sentence you type is astounding."

Not only was your message clearly factually incorrect it was also rude and mean spirited. Seeing those types of communication help to remind me what I'm dealing with when discussing things with people like you.


Here's why this is so funny. M2 would have been in violation of the rules if he posted that on the open forum. But you posted it for him, therefore it's no violation of any rule. I may need a ruling from a mod on this, but I don't think you're in any violation for basically attacking yourself by posting that.

M2, in effect, got to say exactly what so, so many of us here think, with no penalty. You shot yourself in the foot, stopped and reloaded, then shot yourself again.

World class effort, BF. You've attained new heights.

BadFundamentals
09-16-2005, 10:00 PM
Well thanks to you too RFS62. You guys shure are smart around hear.

paintmered
09-16-2005, 10:31 PM
We've strayed sufficiently off the beaten path.

So it's time to create a new path for you to all travel.

Thread over.