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View Full Version : Reds vs. Phillies - 9/24/05 - How Long Will Milton Last?



WVRedsFan
09-24-2005, 08:21 PM
NO. PHILADELPHIA CINCINNATI
1. J. Rollins, SS R. Freel, LF
2. J. Michaels, CF F. Lopez, SS
3. B. Abreu, RF A. Dunn, 1B
4. P. Burrell, LF R. Aurilia, 2B
5. C. Utley, 2B A. Kearns, RF
6. D. Bell, 3B J. LaRue, C
7. R. Howard, 1B W. Pena, CF
8. T. Pratt, C E. Encarnacion, 3B
9. E. Brito, P E. Milton, P

Someone can do this better, but I hate to see a game go by without a game thread. We'll see if anyone shows up.

WVRedsFan
09-24-2005, 08:23 PM
Milton gets through the first allowing one hit with otherwise no damage. Abreau is in a big slump--Uncle Miltie struck him out--for the 5th straight time.

Freel flies out. Lopez grounds out. Dunn up.

Ravenlord
09-24-2005, 08:26 PM
i like this lineup:rolleyes:

got a guy hitting cleanup who's SLG is lower (439) than the team's average SLG (446).

KronoRed
09-24-2005, 08:32 PM
Yeah but he's got contact ;)

TeamBoone
09-24-2005, 08:34 PM
And I sit here listening to Marty scratching his head about Narron not yet being signed because it deters him from making any promises to his players for next year (i.e., Aurilia) and preaching the greatness of Rich Aurilia and how he can not for the life of himself figure out how the Reds can not possibly sign him for next year, if he wants to come back, because they should have figured out by now that Encarnacion is not ready for the bigs.

Quite a sentence, huh?

TeamBoone
09-24-2005, 08:35 PM
i like this lineup:rolleyes:

got a guy hitting cleanup who's SLG is lower (439) than the team's average SLG (446).

But he does everything he's asked to do, hits well in the clutch, and doesn't change his approach no matter what position he's asked to hit in. A younger player wouldn't know how to do that. :rolleyes:

KronoRed
09-24-2005, 08:36 PM
Same ole same ole.

WVRedsFan
09-24-2005, 08:37 PM
Dunn walks. Aurilia up with Dunn on first and 2 out.

Aurilia walks. 1st and 3rd with 2 outs and Kearns up.

Brito balks. Runners move along to 2nd and 3rd.

Ball gets away from the catcher and the run scores. Dunn scores and the Reds lead 1-0. Aurilia goes to 3rd. The count is 3-2 on Kearns.

No run. It was determined that Kearns was hit by the pitch after a discussion by the umpires, so the bases are loaded with Larue up.

Brito has already thrown 26 pitches.

Larue singles and one run scores.

Aurilia out at plate. 1-0 Reds after 1.

ghettochild
09-24-2005, 08:37 PM
rich is so great :rollseyes:

WVRedsFan
09-24-2005, 08:42 PM
You guys snuk in while I thought I was all alone. Yay!

Ravenlord
09-24-2005, 08:46 PM
Marty and whichever writer clone he's chatting with complaining about Kearns 244 average...nevermind he's 262/353/503 since being recalled.

TeamBoone
09-24-2005, 08:58 PM
Actually, I think the writer (someone I've never heard of from the Enquirer) was sort of defending Austin. He thinks Kearns is the one who should be traded in the off season because he feels he's the best outfield defender and has lots of promise, thus they should be able to get a #3 or #2 pitcher for him. Marty would like to get rid of Pena because he said he'll never be a good defensive outfielder, even though people say he works hard, he's never seen it (or any evidence that he's getting better). The writer thinks the fans would revolt if Dunn was traded but Marty says "why wait" because he thinks Adam will walk when he's able to because "everyone knows he'd rather be in Houston".

CTA513
09-24-2005, 09:00 PM
The Reds should have walked Rollins for the rest of the night, it would have ended his hitting streak after he went 0 for 1 in the first inning.

:)

Chip R
09-24-2005, 09:07 PM
John Erardi was the writer Marty was talking to. He's got a point. Kearns is the best OFer and has the most value of the guys that aren't named Griffey or Dunn. But, that said, I'd try to move Pena. Perhaps a certain GM in our nation's capital values him enough to give up an arm for him. Pena's a 1 trick pony. He has lots of power and that's it. He has speed but if he keeps getting picked off base, what good is that speed? If he got on base like Dunn or Manny that'd be a different story. Like Erardi said, he's never seen a bad OFer turn into a good OFer. They compared him to Kevin Mitchell defensively but Mitch hit for average and power so you could hide his defense in LF. Pena probably won't bring a lot but let him be some one else's project.

WVRedsFan
09-24-2005, 09:12 PM
Dunn finally breaks the homer drought. 3-0 Reds. :beerme:

WVRedsFan
09-24-2005, 09:13 PM
John Erardi was the writer Marty was talking to. He's got a point. Kearns is the best OFer and has the most value of the guys that aren't named Griffey or Dunn. But, that said, I'd try to move Pena. Perhaps a certain GM in our nation's capital values him enough to give up an arm for him. Pena's a 1 trick pony. He has lots of power and that's it. He has speed but if he keeps getting picked off base, what good is that speed? If he got on base like Dunn or Manny that'd be a different story. Like Erardi said, he's never seen a bad OFer turn into a good OFer. They compared him to Kevin Mitchell defensively but Mitch hit for average and power so you could hide his defense in LF. Pena probably won't bring a lot but let him be some one else's project.

Trade anyone for arms. Pena is the likely candidate.

KronoRed
09-24-2005, 09:13 PM
Dunn wants 40

ghettochild
09-24-2005, 09:13 PM
dunn is 3 ribeyes short of back-to-back 100/100/100 seasons

flyer85
09-24-2005, 09:15 PM
It doesn't matter who they trade they won't get a quality proven starting pitcher. It ain't gonna happen.

WVRedsFan
09-24-2005, 09:20 PM
It doesn't matter who they trade they won't get a quality proven starting pitcher. It ain't gonna happen.

Agreed--Gotta buy those guys.

flyer85
09-24-2005, 09:21 PM
Agreed--Gotta buy those guys.... gotta grw those guys or trade for them before they blossom. We saw what happens when they tried to "buy" those guys.

TeamBoone
09-24-2005, 09:30 PM
I can't remember how this came up, but last night during the game, Hal McCoy said that in August, Aaron Boone returned $750,000 of his salary to the Indians because he said he didn't deserve it.

Wow.

Ravenlord
09-24-2005, 09:37 PM
actually, Boonie hasn't done bad since the All-Star Break:

294/350/427

ghettochild
09-24-2005, 09:37 PM
cause he's still living off his yankee salary

Falls City Beer
09-24-2005, 09:39 PM
actually, Boonie hasn't done bad since the All-Star Break:

294/350/427

And for all that sound and fury, a .695 OPS for the year.

Boy, did we ever job the Yankees on that deal.

Reds Nd2
09-24-2005, 09:42 PM
And I sit here listening to Marty scratching his head about Narron not yet being signed because it deters him from making any promises to his players for next year (i.e., Aurilia)

Weavers Second Law

If you don't make promises to your players, you won't have to break them.

TeamBoone
09-24-2005, 09:43 PM
cause he's still living off his yankee salary

I think it was a pretty awesome thing to do. I don't remember hearing of anyone ever doing such a thing before... I wish Milton would.

New Fever
09-24-2005, 09:43 PM
Pena is only 23 AND people just want to give him up for an arm. Do people realize without the horrible contract, he would be a Top 10 prospect in all of baseball. Compare him to players his age. Teams just don't give players away like that.

TeamBoone
09-24-2005, 09:45 PM
Who do you give away?

New Fever
09-24-2005, 09:56 PM
I didn't say Pena shouldn't be traded, but he shouldn't be given away. I think you should trade whoever you get the most from between (Kearns, Pena, Dunn, or Casey). Just trading Pena for some guy, is a bad idea, you might as well just keep him if you are going to do that. In baseball you have some teams that just have to wait until you get pitching and hitting at the same time. Mostly done thru the draft. Right now the Reds have the hitting part as we all know and the pitching isn't there yet. Like someone said earlier the only way you get a good to great young pitcher, is getting someone who hasn't made that jump yet or drafting them.

KronoRed
09-24-2005, 09:59 PM
Nice thing for Aaron to do.

Chip R
09-24-2005, 09:59 PM
Pena is only 23 AND people just want to give him up for an arm. Do people realize without the horrible contract, he would be a Top 10 prospect in all of baseball. Compare him to players his age. Teams just don't give players away like that.But he did sign the major league deal so he's not a prospect any more. He'll be arbitration eligible after this year and while he probably won't make over $1M he's always going to have people saying, "Oh, give him time and he'll be a good defensive player" all his career. If you can trade Pena in a deal like they did for Guillen or Boone then you have to do it. I like WMP but he's just not going to get much better defensively and he's a liability on the base paths to put it kindly.

You guys are going to love this: Marty said that he was talking to people yesterday and they told him that if Billy Beane were GM, he'd trade Dunn for 3 good arms.

KronoRed
09-24-2005, 10:01 PM
Yeah and I'm Batman

Reds Nd2
09-24-2005, 10:13 PM
That ball by Howard took a wicked,mean, nasty bounce off the scoreboard. It kicked hard away from "Thrill". I could have went to third on that one. :)

TeamBoone
09-24-2005, 10:22 PM
I just noticed for the first time that Gameday says Felipe Lopez, Jr. Sounds weird.

harangatang
09-24-2005, 10:42 PM
Dunn finally breaks the homer drought.

Yeah, and it was agaiinst a lefty too.. ;)

CTA513
09-24-2005, 10:43 PM
Its time for the meltdown... as Rollins steals 3rd base crawling.

M2
09-24-2005, 10:45 PM
And for all that sound and fury, a .695 OPS for the year.

Boy, did we ever job the Yankees on that deal.

The Yankees went to the World Series that year on the back of an Aaron Boone homer. When Boone blew out his ACL they went out and got themselves a heaping helping of A-Rod. I'll guarantee you that if you went to the Yankees and asked them if they'd do the Boone deal again, they'd give you a rousing, "You bet your (insert favorite body here)."

The Yankees trade for today with the absolute confidence they have the resources to tackle tomorrow when that moves to the front of the line. With one swing of the bat against Tim Wakefield, Aaron Boone justified that trade for the Yankees.

M2
09-24-2005, 10:48 PM
You guys are going to love this: Marty said that he was talking to people yesterday and they told him that if Billy Beane were GM, he'd trade Dunn for 3 good arms.

Unlike the current Reds GM, Beane would be able to identify three good arms and negotiate the deal.

Matt700wlw
09-24-2005, 10:51 PM
Unlike the current Reds GM, Beane would be able to identify three good arms and negotiate the deal.

Exactly.

Matt700wlw
09-24-2005, 10:51 PM
Oh...the Reds are going to blow this


Ye, of little faith

M2
09-24-2005, 10:54 PM
Oh...the Reds are going to blow this

This club tends to defeat expectations. When you think they can't possibly blow it, they do. When you think it's a given that they'll yak it up, they hold on.

Falls City Beer
09-24-2005, 10:54 PM
The Yankees went to the World Series that year on the back of an Aaron Boone homer. When Boone blew out his ACL they went out and got themselves a heaping helping of A-Rod. I'll guarantee you that if you went to the Yankees and asked them if they'd do the Boone deal again, they'd give you a rousing, "You bet your (insert favorite body here)."

The Yankees trade for today with the absolute confidence they have the resources to tackle tomorrow when that moves to the front of the line. With one swing of the bat against Tim Wakefield, Aaron Boone justified that trade for the Yankees.

And then Boone proceeded to go on another one of his famous dirt naps as the Marlins shredded the Yanks in the Series. One homer. Sure it was dramatic. But it was one homer.

The Yankees certainly could have used Claussen this season. Now they're barely clinging to their lead and may not even make the postseason.

And a sensible Yankee fan would see the Boone/Claussen deal for what it was--just another step in depleting the Yankee's ability to bargain for trade deadline talent.

Matt700wlw
09-24-2005, 10:57 PM
This club tends to defeat expectations. When you think they can't possibly blow it, they do. When you think it's a given that they'll yak it up, they hold on.

Then I stand by my prediction :)

M2
09-24-2005, 10:59 PM
Watching the Reds use four relievers this inning makes me once again wonder if there's anyone who thinks this makes for enjoyable baseball?

You get late into a game and then the managers suck the life out of the park. It's even hard for the home crowd to care after this many bullpen calls. MLB can't ban this sort of thing soon enough.

M2
09-24-2005, 11:05 PM
And then Boone proceeded to go on another one of his famous dirt naps as the Marlins shredded the Yanks in the Series. One homer. Sure it was dramatic. But it was one homer.

The Yankees certainly could have used Claussen this season. Now they're barely clinging to their lead and may not even make the postseason.

And a sensible Yankee fan would see the Boone/Claussen deal for what it was--just another step in depleting the Yankee's ability to bargain for trade deadline talent.

Sensible Yankees fans don't care about Brandon Claussen. He was never part of the long range plan for the Bombers. If he hadn't gone to the Reds, he'd have gone somewhere else that winter.

He went away for a guy who delivered the Yankees a moment that's seared permanently into Yankee lore. That's what Yankees fans care about. If we're also happy with the trade, good for us. They win and move on.

Matt700wlw
09-24-2005, 11:08 PM
Weathers in to save it.

That's not a relaxing situation

flyer85
09-24-2005, 11:10 PM
Unlike the current Reds GM, Beane would be able to identify three good arms and negotiate the deal.I don't see the deal on the Beane resume where he has traded a good offensive player for 3 good arms. He has had a bunch of top offensive players(Giambi, Chavez, Tejada, etc). I am missing the trades where he dealt those guards for a group of good arms.

The Beane methodology has been han on to star offensive players or let then walk and get the draft picks.

Falls City Beer
09-24-2005, 11:10 PM
Sensible Yankees fans don't care about Brandon Claussen. He was never part of the long range plan for the Bombers. If he hadn't gone to the Reds, he'd have gone somewhere else that winter.

He went away for a guy who delivered the Yankees a moment that's seared permanently into Yankee lore. That's what Yankees fans care about. If we're also happy with the trade, good for us. They win and move on.

Yeah, and the Yanks got demolished in the Series. Ashes in any Yankee fans mouth. Kissing yer sister. Smoking the seeds. Deliver a championship or bugger off is what any Yankee fan I've ever met believes.

Yanks fans and players will probably be watching from their Barcaloungers this postseason. Money's never an object for the Yankees, but talent is never not an object for any team.

Chip R
09-24-2005, 11:10 PM
Watching the Reds use four relievers this inning makes me once again wonder if there's anyone who thinks this makes for enjoyable baseball?

You get late into a game and then the managers suck the life out of the park. It's even hard for the home crowd to care after this many bullpen calls. MLB can't ban this sort of thing soon enough.Yeah. I was telling MWM that Narron was channelling Lloyd McClendon that inning.

I agree with you about Beane being able to get 3 good arms for Dunn. Of course he wouldn't have to cause he'd never sign guys like Ortiz and Milton. Plus I would think Bean would just love a guy like Dunn who brings that high OBP and SLG to the table. He'd probably build a shrine to him and sign him to a long term deal.

Weathers is in. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

flyer85
09-24-2005, 11:14 PM
wow ... a Tucker sighting

harangatang
09-24-2005, 11:14 PM
Michael Tucker is in, beware of the curse of former Reds

CTA513
09-24-2005, 11:15 PM
Booo! we wanted a Graves type outing from Weathers!

;)

Reds Nd2
09-24-2005, 11:15 PM
Watching the Reds use four relievers this inning makes me once again wonder if there's anyone who thinks this makes for enjoyable baseball?

You get late into a game and then the managers suck the life out of the park. It's even hard for the home crowd to care after this many bullpen calls. MLB can't ban this sort of thing soon enough.

Sure the fans may hate the down time of so many pitching changes, but I hope your kidding about MLB banning the managers choice of bringing in a relief pitcher.

M2
09-24-2005, 11:19 PM
I don't see the deal on the Beane resume where he has traded a good offensive player for 3 good arms. He has had a bunch of top offensive players(Giambi, Chavez, Tejada, etc). I am missing the trades where he dealt those guards for a group of good arms.

I don't see why you'd limit yourself to bats. Beane dealt two big arms this offseason. The Tim Hudson deal fizzled, but the Mark Mulder has been gangbusters.

More importantly, reviewing Beane's track record as a GM do you have any doubt the man has the ability to identify good young pitchers?

harangatang
09-24-2005, 11:20 PM
You get late into a game and then the managers suck the life out of the park. It's even hard for the home crowd to care after this many bullpen calls. MLB can't ban this sort of thing soon enough.

I understand the concern of the entertainment of the fan but a manager needs to be able to give his team the best chance to win. Isn't winning what the fans want most?

flyer85
09-24-2005, 11:24 PM
I don't see why you'd limit yourself to bats. Beane dealt two big arms this offseason. The Tim Hudson deal fizzled, but the Mark Mulder has been gangbusters.
That right ... and he got 1 quality arm for Mulder in Haren(and he was a guy that had done nothing but struggle at the ML level). Calero is a middle releiver slider specialist and Barton may turn out to be special. Having said that, front line starters have a higher trade value than OFs do.

Beane has built his success on drafting anf developing a bunch of players and filling in around those with guys acquired undervalue(either through minor trades or FA sigining.)

The Reds don't have the Hudsons, Mulders, Zitos, Crosby, Blantons, Johnsons, Streets, Swishers, etc to show for there drafting efforts.

M2
09-24-2005, 11:26 PM
Yeah, and the Yanks got demolished in the Series. Ashes in any Yankee fans mouth. Kissing yer sister. Smoking the seeds. Deliver a championship or bugger off is what any Yankee fan I've ever met believes.

Yanks fans and players will probably be watching from their Barcaloungers this postseason. Money's never an object for the Yankees, but talent is never not an object for any team.

The Yankees have the luxury of nearly limitless cash. They don't keep projects like Claussen.

I know plenty of Yankees fans and to a person, they'd make the Boone trade again and get a better ump crew for that World Series.

Falls City Beer
09-24-2005, 11:32 PM
The Yankees have the luxury of nearly limitless cash. They don't keep projects like Claussen.


I submit that maybe they'd be wise to keep some projects. Not to save money, but to have talent on hand.

The Yanks have become really bad at throwing around their money (does anyone on Earth think the Yankees wouldn't be better off with Claussen pitching in Jaret Wright's spot in the rotation?)

Chip R
09-24-2005, 11:37 PM
I understand the concern of the entertainment of the fan but a manager needs to be able to give his team the best chance to win. Isn't winning what the fans want most?
It's one thing to give your team the best chance to win but is he really doing that or just trying not to get second guessed? It's like platooning. How are you ever going to be able to get a left handed hitter out - if you're a right handed pitcher (and vice versa) - if you never get toface him with the game on the line? Narron brings Coffey in. 1st batter hits a double and Narron yanks him. He can't give him the opportunity to get out of a jam? He brings in Shackelford and only lets him pitch to lefties. Then Belisle can only pitch to righties. It's a classic case of overmanaging.

Big Klu
09-24-2005, 11:39 PM
Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Ted Kluszewski - 251
5. George Foster - 244
6. Eric Davis - 203
7. Barry Larkin - 198
8. Vada Pinson - 186
9. Wally Post - 172
10. Gus Bell - 160
11. Adam Dunn - 156
12. Joe Morgan - 152
12. Pete Rose - 152
14. Lee May - 147
15. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 138
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

M2
09-24-2005, 11:41 PM
Sure the fans may hate the down time of so many pitching changes, but I hope your kidding about MLB banning the managers choice of bringing in a relief pitcher.

No, I'm completely serious. Managers sometimes make the product unwatchable in the late innings.

Cito Gaston literally managed the life out of the best live game I've ever seen (Roger Clemens' return to Boston) by bringing in four relievers to close out the game.

There's all sorts of limits and regulations in the game of baseball and there ought to be some meatier ones concerning reliever usage. I'm a hardliner, I think you shouldn't be able to make more than one mid-inning reliever switch per game. For sure you shouldn't be able to do it more than once per inning.

The league pays a lot of lip service to cutting down game times and making a more entertaining product. Here's an opportunity to do it. Managers would carp about it, but I think it would actually bring about some positive changes. Pitchers would know they can't be looking over their shoulders and teams would have to find relievers capable of getting three outs without taking a bloodletting. It would put a higher premium on innings from the starting staff and you'd probably see teams carry fewer relievers as a result.

Why continue a practice that drives fans away at the very moment when the game's reaching its most critical juncture?

M2
09-25-2005, 12:07 AM
flyer, I remember lots of people speculating that Mark Mulder was washed up before Beane traded him (I was not one of those people). He was shopping for the best he could get from the Cardinals. A young starter to replace Mulder, a quality middle reliever and a dynamite prospect bat was what the Cardinals had to offer and he got it. It gets back to my original point. Beane knows talent. He proves it every season. I don't care if it's trades, draft or free agency, they aren't unrelated silos.

Beane he knows how to identify a problem and address it. He doesn't wait around . He can spot talent. I can't say any of that for the guy running the Reds these days.

FCB, the Yanks can replace Jaret Wright with Aaron Small right now if they so choose. They've got Johnson and Mussina. They had Chien-Ming Wang on hand when they needed a young pitcher. They dredged for Small and Shawn Chacon. No one's shedding a tear for Brandon Claussen.

Falls City Beer
09-25-2005, 12:14 AM
flyer, I remember lots of people speculating that Mark Mulder was washed up before Beane traded him (I was not one of those people). He was shopping for the best he could get from the Cardinals. A young starter to replace Mulder, a quality middle reliever and a dynamite prospect bat was what the Cardinals had to offer and he got it. It gets back to my original point. Beane knows talent. He proves it every season. I don't care if it's trades, draft or free agency, they aren't unrelated silos.

Beane he knows how to identify a problem and address it. He doesn't wait around . He can spot talent. I can't say any of that for the guy running the Reds these days.

FCB, the Yanks can replace Jaret Wright with Aaron Small right now if they so choose. They've got Johnson and Mussina. They had Chien-Ming Wang on hand when they needed a young pitcher. They dredged for Small and Shawn Chacon. No one's shedding a tear for Brandon Claussen.

Well, pointing to Claussen alone misses the larger point that if you make your living trading away greater talent for lesser talent you're going to be hard-pressed, over the long haul, to sustain success, no matter how rich.

If the Yanks even make it to the playoffs this year, they're a first-round exit.

MWM
09-25-2005, 12:19 AM
If the Yanks even make it to the playoffs this year, they're a first-round exit.

I think the Yanks will be the AL rep in the WS. With the way Randy Johnson is throwing right now and with the offense clicking like it is, I don't see a team in AL going to the playoffs, except MAYBE Cleveland, that is in better shape right now than the Yanks. It's not that I think they're a juggernaut, but I don't see ANY team in the AL really positioned well for the post-season.

The Cards are going to win it all this year and I think they're going to do it in dominating fashion.

westofyou
09-25-2005, 12:20 AM
The Cards are going to win it all this year and I think they're going to do it in dominating fashion.

Nah... Tribe/Angels and Cards/Braves with The Tribe winning the Series... you heard it here first.

Falls City Beer
09-25-2005, 12:29 AM
Gotta go with Halos trouncing the Cards judy-rotation.

(And don't mess with my predicto-tron 5000--I called Boston over Cards in a sweep around this time last year, so.....).

The Cards are that perfect vase, cold, symmetrical, and bloodless.

M2
09-25-2005, 12:34 AM
Well, pointing to Claussen alone misses the larger point that if you make your living trading away greater talent for lesser talent you're going to be hard-pressed, over the long haul, to sustain success, no matter how rich.

If the Yanks even make it to the playoffs this year, they're a first-round exit.

They can maul the White Sox or Angels.

The Yankees don't have to worry about the margins on prospect-for-veteran trades. They have money. The only prospects they keep are the ones who can star. Otherwise it's a cash business. They've sustained success without much of a farm system for this entire decade. Mind you, they'd be way more dangerous if they were to come up with another group like Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera, but that's a matter wholly unrelated to Claussen.

Reds Nd2
09-25-2005, 12:37 AM
No, I'm completely serious. Managers sometimes make the product unwatchable in the late innings.

Cito Gaston literally managed the life out of the best live game I've ever seen (Roger Clemens' return to Boston) by bringing in four relievers to close out the game.

There's all sorts of limits and regulations in the game of baseball and there ought to be some meatier ones concerning reliever usage. I'm a hardliner, I think you shouldn't be able to make more than one mid-inning reliever switch per game. For sure you shouldn't be able to do it more than once per inning.

The league pays a lot of lip service to cutting down game times and making a more entertaining product. Here's an opportunity to do it. Managers would carp about it, but I think it would actually bring about some positive changes. Pitchers would know they can't be looking over their shoulders and teams would have to find relievers capable of getting three outs without taking a bloodletting. It would put a higher premium on innings from the starting staff and you'd probably see teams carry fewer relievers as a result.

Why continue a practice that drives fans away at the very moment when the game's reaching its most critical juncture?

M2, that's a very interesting response but I don't agree. I'm more about seeing a winning product on the field, than I am seeing a watchable product or the league cutting down on the time it takes for a game to be played. After all, the only clock in baseball is 27 outs. Just because the casual fan thinks the game is taking too long to reach it's ending doesn't really concern me in the slightest. The manager has to be able to make the moves he feels will be best for the team winning a particular game. Any attempts by MLB to limit that, in an attempt to speed the game up or make it more interesting is wrong, IMO.

Was Narron a complete tool tonight, bringing in four relievers to complete an inning? Maybe, but the Reds did win because/despite it. That is another topic altogether though.

The fans are already being driven away from the game and it's not because a manager uses too many relievers in an inning. Well, it may be one reason, but it's on the low end of the totem pole. I still hear people complaining because the W.S was cancelled. The freaking All-Star game ended in a tie. Bonds is about to break the HR record while using steroids. MLB isn't marketing to younger fans like other sports. The Yankees spend too much money and my team will never win because of it. I'm sure you know better than me, theres a very diverse set of reasons that fans are turning away from baseball. Long down times because of pitching changes should be the least of MLB's concerns.

KittyDuran
09-25-2005, 12:40 AM
Good thing I went to the game - otherwise, judging from this thread I'd never known who won... :p:


wow ... a Tucker sightingYeah, he was really great in the Phillies BP. Him and a few other Phillies shagging balls in the OF were clowning around w/the fans, trying to kick "field goals" with a makeshift football [ball in glove] into the stands, doing trick catches, etc.

Falls City Beer
09-25-2005, 12:43 AM
They've sustained success without much of a farm system for this entire decade.

And frankly, their product gets thinner and thinner. They've looked like kittens or complete dogs at some juncture in the postseason for the last 5 seasons and they're on the brink of not even making it this time around. We're seeing what's wrong with limiting talent influx to FA acquisitions.

WVRedsFan
09-25-2005, 01:02 AM
Regardless of how the Yankkes fare this year and whether or not you change pitchers too often (he does), I'm 1-1 in starting game threads and I now retire. I can't stand going below .500 (unlike the ownership of the Reds who are content to do that year after year).

Somebody please start it tomorrow. I'm going to the race!

M2
09-25-2005, 01:08 AM
M2, that's a very interesting response but I don't agree. I'm more about seeing a winning product on the field, than I am seeing a watchable product or the league cutting down on the time it takes for a game to be played.

That's nice to say, but I submit that unless the product is watchable you're probably not paying attention to the winning or losing. After all, the league needs people to follow the losing teams as well as the winning ones. You can't have the one without the other.

Plus, what does being able to drain the life out of the game contribute to your team's individual ability to win? The other team's playing by the same rules. Ultimately what wins over a season is whether you've got the talent beat the other team more often than not. Either you've got the pitchers to get the outs or you don't. Managerial hijinks, from every study I've ever seen, amount to just about nothing over the course of the season. Beyond that, new limitations just place more importance on making the right call at the start of the inning or in using that mid-inning switch at the exact right time. The current system lets managers rummage through a few mistakes and not pay for it.

What we've got right now, and we know this, is pattern of using relievers that makes people leave the ballpark early or change the channel. Even gonzo baseball fans don't like watching multiple calls to the pen. So why keep it? Tony LaRussa's ego will survive.

M2
09-25-2005, 01:20 AM
And frankly, their product gets thinner and thinner. They've looked like kittens or complete dogs at some juncture in the postseason for the last 5 seasons and they're on the brink of not even making it this time around. We're seeing what's wrong with limiting talent influx to FA acquisitions.

I agree they're not the beast they were and that relying on free agency as your primary team-building method leaves you long-in-the-tooth at all the wrong times.

Yet what the Yankees need isn't marginal young players. They need to more stars coming up through the system. They've got all the resources to do it. For whatever reason they just haven't been able to get that together for that past decade. The B prospects, the maybes, the projects, those kids would still be getting farmed out to fill immediate needs.

919191
09-25-2005, 01:54 AM
I was in right field during batting practice whe Tucker was with a couple others doing the football thing like Kitty said. He got in in the stands once and yelled up to the guy that caught it to throw it back to him, which he did. They were all laughing so hard they could hardly stand straight. It was fun to watch.

KittyDuran
09-25-2005, 08:47 AM
I was in right field during batting practice whe Tucker was with a couple others doing the football thing like Kitty said. He got in in the stands once and yelled up to the guy that caught it to throw it back to him, which he did. They were all laughing so hard they could hardly stand straight. It was fun to watch.Hey! Are you going today? I still have those $5 bear bucks I have to use...

KittyDuran
09-25-2005, 08:50 AM
At first I didn't recognize Tucker [he was wearing a long sleeved workout shirt w/o name/number]. Then when he was interacting w/the crowd... hmm...I said, this guy acts just like....? :)

Reds Nd2
09-25-2005, 11:33 AM
Even gonzo baseball fans don't like watching multiple calls to the pen. So why keep it? Tony LaRussa's ego will survive.

:laugh: Yep, but Dusty Bakers ego might not.

I see what your saying and I agree with you, up to the point of placing limitations on the number of pitching changes a manager can make during an inning. That's where I have to draw the line. There are just too many what if's that would dictate multiple pitcher changes. I believe fans would rather sit through another pitching change than watch the reliever give up five runs and blow the lead late in the game. Forcing the manager to stick with an ineffective reliever isn't fair to him, the team, or the fans.

Roy Tucker
09-25-2005, 01:07 PM
Good night at the ballyard last night. A real MLB game was played. The Reds actually played like they cared and the Phils were playing for their playoff life.

Roy took his almost 15 yr. old daughter and two of her friends to the game last night. We had our good season ticket seats. We got to the ballpark a little late so we hustled around to the Fan Zone to get some Skyline only to find the whole place shut down. So this is a Sat. night game, warm weather, 30+K fans, and they close half the concessions? What’s with that? It was mascot night at the ballyard so there were some interesting characters about. Gapper and the Dayton Dragon were there. There was some guy with fruit and vegetables hanging off him that I called Produce Guy. And some that looked like escapees from Sesame Street. They wandered the stands scaring the bejesus out of kids all night.

The scoreboard stumper was a good one. The Reds have never had a Cy Young winner. However, 5 pitchers that have been on the Reds have won the Cy Young. Who are they?

So we went around, hit the Skyline on the other side of the ballpark, waiting in a long line, blah blah blah.

Got to our seats and the 3 girls started talking which would turn into a game-long conversation. I’m not sure if they actually watched the game, but at least I had some company. I also kept score so that kept me entertained. Some guy butchered up the National Anthem and then I see Milton warming up. A real uh-oh kind of feeling. About every home game I’ve been to this year has been either Milton or Ortiz doing an imitation of a gas can.

But, surprise, surprise, Milton actually pitches well. He gave up some truly sky-scraping fly balls to the warning track (3 fly-outs to left had an exclamation point on my scorecard), but he kept a power-ridden Phils ballclub in the park all night.

Screwy first inning. Brito pitching for Philly and is a little DR guy with heat, Ortiz-like. Dunn walks with 2 outs and Aurilia walks. A balk moves them to 2nd and 3rd. An apparent wild pitch scores a run without a hit. But then the umps huddle and then I hear home plate ump Tim Timmons holler “Austin” and point to first. He then points to Dunn in the dugout and points to 3rd and hollers “back”. As an aside, Timmons called a good strike zone game. Any time I see a Tim McClelland led ump crew I feel like we’ll get a well-called game.

So anyhow, LaRue immediately lines a pitch to LF and Dunn easily scores. I look up and Aurilia is just rounding 3rd looking like he’s running in mud. No wheels on that guy. Kinda like watching Casey run, lots of grimacing and effort, but s l o w. He out by 3 miles at home on a nice throw by Burrell, 7-2 assist LF. 1-zip Reds.

The second inning, Wily Mo pulls a WilyMo. He singles to lead off the inning. After a EE flyout, Milton is up to bunt. Actually, he’s up to bunt after faking a bunt on the first pitch and then swinging away. Misses bunt attempt #2 and #3 and Ks’. After the 3rd strike, Wily Mo is wandering off first looking at butterflies or something. The Phils catcher Pratt looks up, sees Wily Mo in the ozones, and throws to first. To call Pena’s attempt to get back to first half-hearted would be an injustice to half-hearted. He does a stupid little tap dance and gets himself picked off. Roy hollers "at least try, would ya".

In the 3rd, Lopez walks. Dunn then hits a truly majestic shot halfway up the stands out in RF. The funny thing was, he didn’t even swing hard. The guy just has enormous power. Reds lead 3-0.

And then the game settles into a groove from the 3rd to the 7th. Milton actually pitches well. 90-91 mph heat, spots his off-speed stuff well, and keeps the Phils juuuuuust off-center of the ball and in the yard. Like I mentioned before, some big-time fly balls that I tilted my head back about 70 degrees to watch, but in the park the ball stayed. Milton would be good in Petco or Comerica.

In the 7th, it gets interesting again. After 2 were out, Howard (who is a *big* guy) hits one a ton to left center that Freel chases. Evidently the ball hits something and takes a wicked carom towards CF. Wily Mo is doing I-don’t-know-what and by the time the ball is retrieved, Howard is into 3rd easily. It was a good thing Rollins wasn’t the base-runner because it would have been an inside-the-parker for him. Pratt lines a single to right and it’s a 3-1 game. I’m getting a bad feeling about Milton. Ruhle comes out to talk to him and I fully expect Milton to get lifted. No, he’s not. Gulp. A game-tying 2 run HR is on Roy’s mind. Perez pinch hits for Fultz but flied out to Kearns. I felt the Reds dodged a real bullet there.

In the bottom on the 7th, Freel and Lopez walk off Geary after 2 are out. Dunn comes up and the crowd is into it. But Geary wild pitches Freel and Lopez up to 2nd and 3rd. Geary then IBB’s Dunn and the crowd boos. On a full-count, Aurilia lauches one to CF that I thought might carry out. But no, Michaels catches it close to the wall 400+ to CF for the 3rd out. Damn, I had really hoped for a bigger lead, the Phils offense is potent.

In the 8th, I can’t figure if Narron won the game or not. He sure did a Tony LaRussa act. Coffey is in to pitch and give up a lead-off double to Rollins. Narron immediately lifts Coffey and brings in Shackleford. Manuel PH’s for Michael with Victorino. Shack goes to sleep and Rollins steals 3rd standing up. Victorino sac-flies Rollins home and its 3-2 now. Narron then lifts Shack for Belisle. Belisle immediately gives up a single to Burrell on his second pitch. Narron *then* lifts Belisle for Mercker. Utley is up and Roy is nervous. Looking at Utley’s OBP and SLG, Roy thinks “man, this guy is having a great year”. But Utley fouls out to EE to end the inning. I don’t know if Narron put on the stall to slow down a power Phils lineup or what. It took about a ½ hour to get through the half-inning. But it did work. My thought at the time was that Miley would have botched it.

One funny moment that made the inning even longer. The steamboat stacks belched a huge cloud of steam that just hung in CF. The ump held up the game while it sloowwlly moved out back over home plate. They played “Smoke on the Water” on the PA. Ho-ho.

Weathers comes on to pitch the 9th. He gets Bell on a called 3rd strike that Bell *really* didn’t like the call on. He was in Timmon’s face and I thought he bumped him. But Timmons let it go. Howard grounded out and Michael Tucker PH for Pratt. My comment was “Tucker is still playing?”. He grounds out Olmedo to Dunn 4-3 and that’s the ballgame.

In the post-game handshake, Narron has a little chat with Weathers that they both laughed on. Everyone does a white-man’s straight handshake with Narron except for Dunn who gives a wiggly finger whoop-dee-doo with him that Narron just waves at. Weathers has his little boy on the field in a little Reds uniform which was a nice moment.

A good time was had by all. The scoreboard stumper was Don Newcome, Mike Cuellar, Tom Seaver, John Denny, and Frank Viola. I only got Seaver and Newcombe.

M2
09-25-2005, 02:29 PM
Forcing the manager to stick with an ineffective reliever isn't fair to him, the team, or the fans.

There would be the occasional bloodletting. That said, managers already pick plenty of ineffective relievers as it is. We've all seen the comedy stylings of Chris Booker and Juan Cerros. Sometimes David Weathers will cough up five runs. Those things happen with the current rule set. So you're probably only talking about a handful of instances outside the normal fare over the course of the season.

Also, as much as it can work against you, it can work for you. It's going to seem real fair and more than a little bit interesting when the home team starts to tee off on a reliever and everyone realizes "Hey, we've got this guy's number." The rule giveths as much as it takeths away.

At the very least, and it really is a bare minimum, team's shouldn't be able to make more than one pitching switch per inning (with a caveat in there for replacing a guy who's gotten injured). I still think one per game is the way to go. Technically it would be more fair to let you move your chess pieces wherever you want, whenever you want, but strategy arises out of limitations. In essense you'd be telling the manager, here's your "get out of jail free" card. Play it wisely. IMO, you create dramatic tension when a team's used up its one bail out. Now whoever's on the mound is in a situation where he has to perform. Nice existential challenge in that.

Plus, as Bill James notes, rule changes don't always affect the game the way you think they will. Aluminum bats created more dangerous hitters, not less effective ones. Getting rid of the mid-inning bail out very well could clear out garbage relievers and force teams into a more rational, effective pitching model. Even if that doesn't happen, the beating would be over in just about the time it took for a new reliever to come in, warm up and get out of the inning, except that you'd have had non-stop action instead of gobs of dead space.