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Matt700wlw
10-20-2005, 06:23 PM
Dan O'Brien, on with Lance, just said in order to get pitching, and seeing as the outfield is a surplus for this team, trading one of them is the avenue they will likely go.

Now the debate....who goes and for what?

westofyou
10-20-2005, 06:25 PM
Dan O'Brien, on with Lance, just said in order to get pitching, and seeing as the outfield is a surplus for this team, trading one of them is the avenue they will likely go.

Now the debate....who goes and for what?

Can't sneak anything by Dan, he's a quick as a they come.

Matt700wlw
10-20-2005, 06:27 PM
It took this long to get it out of him....

pedro
10-20-2005, 06:27 PM
Here's where DanO trades Dunn for Zack Greinke.

Joseph
10-20-2005, 06:33 PM
I don't know if knee jerk reactions like this are good for the team. :)

puca
10-20-2005, 06:37 PM
He's going to trade Dunn and get 10 cents on the dollar. I just know it.

Dunn is the only one that will bring back pitching, and unfortunately DanO's idea of pitching is Milton and Ortiz. I could see him trading Dunn for Bronson Arroyo or Mike Maroth. Really, I could.

I'm going to hate this offseason.

Matt700wlw
10-20-2005, 06:38 PM
I don't think I trust this front office trading a superstar.... :yikes:

MartyFan
10-20-2005, 06:40 PM
Lets ask a question...

If the Reds would have traded WMP or Kearns in the offseason do you think that would have been wise?

In hinsight, yes...but in the real world...NO! It would have been STUPID!!! As STUPID as signing Wilson, Ortiz and Milton...though I still have hope for the Milton deal to work out (when we trade him to get a couple MLB ready prospects) here's why.

Junior had a comeback year but we didn't and HE didn't even know if he was going to be able to play at all on his reconstructed body. Now we are a year down the road and can see that Junior can still perform and we can safely trade one of the outfielders without losing production and performance.

Just MHO

KronoRed
10-20-2005, 06:42 PM
It'll be Dunn or JR

This team as always thinks $ first.

Team Clark
10-20-2005, 06:53 PM
Has he ever publicly acknowledged that he is the GM of this team? LOL!

RDriesen16
10-20-2005, 06:57 PM
Dan O'Brien, on with Lance, just said in order to get pitching, and seeing as the outfield is a surplus for this team, trading one of them is the avenue they will likely go.

Now the debate....who goes and for what?
i thought, according to dan, there was no surplus. everyone is needed, we dont have a log jam

RDriesen16
10-20-2005, 06:57 PM
It'll be Dunn or JR

This team as always thinks $ first.
that may be there reasoning. but they would be the ones to go if i was gm to and its the only way i can get pitching. they bring you the most back.

Topcat
10-20-2005, 07:28 PM
No matter what they get for Dnn most wil not be happy that is a known fact. Adam is my favourite Red, but I am realistic in that I realize, we either get avg yuck pitching in return or have to gamble on some high upside prospects. Thats the part that leaves me terrified about which way DanO will go if this situation comes up.

M2
10-20-2005, 07:31 PM
MartyFan, in the real world plenty of us have been banging the trade an OF... or two ... or three ... drum for the past few years. The Reds walked into the 2005 season five deep in the OF (counting Ryan Freel). Apparently it's taken DanO two years to grasp the obvious.

As for what you can get, I'd be talking hot and heavy with the Rockies about Jeff Francis and Jason Jennings. Though the pitching you trade for might be something more along the lines of the Jose Guillen for Aaron Harang deal. In that case it's up to the skill of talent evaluators, not exactly a comforting thought when you consider the track record of this front office.

creek14
10-20-2005, 07:39 PM
It'll be Dunn

http://www.politicalcritic.com/images/A8066C-md.jpg

larryboy
10-20-2005, 07:45 PM
Both Griffey and Kearns will go (seperate trades)

Aronchis
10-20-2005, 07:46 PM
Enough of the money whining. Dunn and Griffey(even though he should be) aren't dealable. Lindner has the nix on that.

It will be Pena, you can almost be sure of that. O'brien never has been high on him and with Denorfia ready to ascend, Pena's been replaced.

BoydsOfSummer
10-20-2005, 07:48 PM
Dan O'Brien, on with Lance, just said in order to get pitching, and seeing as the outfield is a surplus for this team, trading one of them is the avenue they will likely go.

Now the debate....who goes and for what?


The avenue of broken dreams...

IslandRed
10-20-2005, 08:39 PM
Count me in the "trade two or more" camp. I want to bring in pitching, and in the shuffle, I'd like to bring in an outfielder, specifically a CF that can run down the rockets our pitchers give up. Run prevention comes in more than one flavor.

Falls City Beer
10-20-2005, 08:48 PM
Vanguard Dan

KronoRed
10-20-2005, 08:59 PM
Both Griffey and Kearns will go (seperate trades)
So the 2 best defenders?

WOOO :explode:

Unassisted
10-20-2005, 09:26 PM
Don't forget, there are outfielders besides the Big 4. DanO could keep his word by trading Denorfia, for instance. :evil:

kbrake
10-20-2005, 09:34 PM
I'm also in favor of trading two of the OF's. I really dont care which two, I just dont want to watch another season of the same pitching. Just remember you dont neccessarily need Dunn or Pena power to hit 30/40 homeruns when you play half your games at GABP. I think you try to trade a couple of OF's to upgrade both the rotation and the bullpen and then you bring in a guy with decent power and let him swing away in that ballpark.

TeamBoone
10-20-2005, 09:38 PM
I don't even want to think about who they'll end up trading... it hurts my heart.

schroomytunes
10-20-2005, 09:39 PM
I FOR one like the idea of trading Wily Mo Pena to the Rockies for Jason Jennings. We are not going to get top notch talent for Pena or Kearns because we simply aren't giving them the at bats to showcase it for a full season. I would really like to land Jeff Francis, but I dont think Wily would get him. So because of us picking up a larger salary in JJ, we may also ask for Larry Bigbie too.

Scenerio: Reds trade Wily Mo Pena

Rockies trade Jason Jennings and Larry Bigbie, who then is our 4th Of with Denorfia being the 5th, putting Freel as the extra Inf.

4256 Hits
10-20-2005, 10:51 PM
pssst... DanO trade Casey and you solve the four outfielder problem.



Although I will admite that the Reds would have to put some money in w/ Sean to get rid of him but that is the smart solution. So that mean DanO will never think of it.

Kc61
10-20-2005, 10:57 PM
I think WMP is a goner. I would guess the AL, an offense starved team, like maybe Toronto.

flyer85
10-20-2005, 11:03 PM
The only thing that seems certain is DanO will screw it up.

M2
10-20-2005, 11:11 PM
So the 2 best defenders?

WOOO :explode:

Jr.'s patently awful in the field. He makes atrocious range look pretty, but it's still atrocious range. If the Reds want to fix the OF defense then Jr. MUST be replaced in CF with a quality flychaser. If that doesn't happen then changes on the corners would just be putting ranch dressing on a turd salad.

Kearns put on a fairly good-sized fielding dog in 2005. That could change because we know he has skills, but no team would suffer much losing the defensive performance he supplied last season.

pedro
10-20-2005, 11:12 PM
I never worry about having a shotage of OF's b/c there are always guys available, especially for LF. That might be the easiest position to fill in the majors.

M2
10-20-2005, 11:13 PM
Count me in the "trade two or more" camp. I want to bring in pitching, and in the shuffle, I'd like to bring in an outfielder, specifically a CF that can run down the rockets our pitchers give up. Run prevention comes in more than one flavor.

Joey Gathright intrigues me.

RDriesen16
10-20-2005, 11:29 PM
Count me in the "trade two or more" camp. I want to bring in pitching, and in the shuffle, I'd like to bring in an outfielder, specifically a CF that can run down the rockets our pitchers give up. Run prevention comes in more than one flavor.
i know a lot of reds fans these days just love to see a home run every now and then and lose(or so it seems). but i want PITCHING, SPEED, DEFENSE. i enjoy watching a team that can pitch and run so much more than waiting for a home run to happy. so boring

BadFundamentals
10-20-2005, 11:48 PM
i know a lot of reds fans these days just love to see a home run every now and then and lose(or so it seems). but i want PITCHING, SPEED, DEFENSE. i enjoy watching a team that can pitch and run so much more than waiting for a home run to happy. so boring
Mr. Driesen glad to make your acquaintance.

I couldn't agree more. For what 5 years? pretty much the same off season plan has been in effect..... fill a hole or two with every day players and then try and overhaul pitching. For what 5 years? we've had same results - it hasn't worked.

IF the fate of current regime is losing baseball :bang: :bang: :bang: at least can we watch a different style for a while? And who knows by playing a different and some might say "better" style, maybe a little more winning just might be a by-product?? stranger things have happened.........

Denorfia clearly has limited tools but his game is a nice change around here. Time to bust this team up a little.......

BadFundamentals
10-20-2005, 11:53 PM
by the way, how hard it would it be to pay some Manpower or CBS or Workforce America employees to raise the fences 6 feet and back them up 15 feet in every field?

paintmered
10-20-2005, 11:57 PM
by the way, how hard it would it be to pay some Manpower or CBS or Workforce America employees to raise the fences 6 feet and back them up 15 feet in every field?


Considering they'd have to remove seating everywhere but centerfield, it's much more difficult than it sounds.

KronoRed
10-20-2005, 11:59 PM
Build bigger parks and pitchers will just get worse

Cedric
10-21-2005, 12:22 AM
I'm more convinced than ever that trading an outfielder shouldn't be a priority, and frankly shouldn't be done.

M2
10-21-2005, 12:26 AM
I'm more convinced than ever that trading an outfielder shouldn't be a priority, and frankly shouldn't be done.

Why?

savafan
10-21-2005, 12:31 AM
I thought we had an extra first baseman, and the Mets and Red Sox could each use a first baseman.

Cedric
10-21-2005, 12:36 AM
One- You can't trade Dunn. Two Griffey is shot. Three- They have no value with Dan O'brien at the helm. Plug Wily Mo in CF, move Griffey to first and play Kearns in right. Right away you have an above average outfield and you've managed to get your best 8 hitters on the lineup card. I believe that Dan O'brien could get the same middling pitcher for Casey that he would manage to get for Pena/Kearns. I'm not saying because Dan O'brien is so incompetent that you just refuse to make moves, but I don't trust him to get anything remotely valuable in return for Kearns or Pena right now. Dunn he could get value for, but what's the point if you are giving away all that production? If you want to trade Dunn you might as well give up and trade even Harang or Felo.

M2
10-21-2005, 12:40 AM
I don't trust DanO either. In fact, I don't think DanO even trusts DanO. IMO, it's why he goes the "proven veteran" route.

Cedric
10-21-2005, 12:42 AM
He shouldn't trust himself.

TeamBoone
10-21-2005, 01:04 AM
I never worry about having a shotage of OF's b/c there are always guys available, especially for LF. That might be the easiest position to fill in the majors.

IMHO, that statement is way too general. Instead, you need to look at both sides of that LF position... offense and defense. The Reds would be hard pressed to replace their current LFer with someone who could come even close to matching the offensive production they are currently getting.

KronoRed
10-21-2005, 04:53 AM
Dunn can play RF as well.

kbrake
10-21-2005, 09:24 AM
You have to give up something in order to get something. I just dont think Casey would bring us anything of value, and as someone has already said we would have to pay at least a portion of his salary. I am convinced that the only way to bring some good pitching to this team is to part with some of the stud offensive players. You simply dont need Lopez, Griffey, Casey, Dunn, Pena, and Kearns to score runs in this ballpark. On the other hand you cant win in any park with Wilson, Milton, Harang, Claussen, and ? as your starting rotation.

Krusty
10-21-2005, 10:43 AM
Pena to the Pirates for LHP Oliver Perez works for me.

RFS62
10-21-2005, 10:49 AM
In fact, I don't think DanO even trusts DanO.



If so, that's the best judgment he's made since he was hired.

Blimpie
10-21-2005, 11:21 AM
Pena to the Pirates for LHP Oliver Perez works for me.Somebody check Jim Tracy's pulse...I think that Krusty just gave him cardiac arrest.

westofyou
10-21-2005, 11:23 AM
Somebody check Jim Tracy's pulse...I think that Krusty just gave him cardiac arrest.

Or the giggles.

larryboy
10-21-2005, 12:37 PM
Cedric regardless if your opinion that Griffey is done is right or wrong, there is some demand for him.

Milezinni
10-21-2005, 12:39 PM
Mr. Driesen glad to make your acquaintance.

I couldn't agree more. For what 5 years? pretty much the same off season plan has been in effect..... fill a hole or two with every day players and then try and overhaul pitching. For what 5 years? we've had same results - it hasn't worked.

IF the fate of current regime is losing baseball :bang: :bang: :bang: at least can we watch a different style for a while? And who knows by playing a different and some might say "better" style, maybe a little more winning just might be a by-product?? stranger things have happened.........

Denorfia clearly has limited tools but his game is a nice change around here. Time to bust this team up a little.......

We can dream can't we?

M2
10-21-2005, 12:49 PM
If so, that's the best judgment he's made since he was hired.

Yeah, but it has bad consequences. I've been using the word diffident a lot of late in regards to DanO because it really sums up his modus operandi. The diffident aren't inactive so much as they're ineffectual when they take action. So he's always trying to figure out what the common wisdom is in order to make "safe" moves as a substitute for his lack of judgment - pick a pitcher with decent win totals, pick a veteran whose name everyone knows, trade for a kid or two you've seen on BA's top 10 team prospects list.

Cedric
10-21-2005, 01:19 PM
Cedric regardless if your opinion that Griffey is done is right or wrong, there is some demand for him.
He's far from done. I just meant he's done as an everyday CF and should be at 1b.

larryboy
10-21-2005, 01:22 PM
Fair enough.

flyer85
10-21-2005, 01:47 PM
He's far from done.Only if he can stay healthy. He has never played a full season with the Reds and playing 120+ games after 4 injury plagued season looks like a huge red flag. I'm highly skeptical that he will ever play 120 games again unless he were to spend considerable time as a DH.

larryboy
10-21-2005, 01:59 PM
I think the competitor he is means he'll still need to play in the field but perhaps LF, with some DH (cold nights, wet field, day after night) and an offseason to baseball train not rehab can help play 120+ without becoming 100% DH. I believe he can make more than a year comeback and string together maybe three more before father time catches him totally. His father aged well and HOFers have an arc that the peak starts very high. I can see year being surpassed in performance by him.

RFS62
10-21-2005, 02:03 PM
Pena to the Pirates for LHP Oliver Perez works for me.



Little too early in the day to be hitting the sauce, Krusty.

:all_cohol

deltachi8
10-21-2005, 04:45 PM
Mr. Driesen glad to make your acquaintance.

I couldn't agree more. For what 5 years? pretty much the same off season plan has been in effect..... fill a hole or two with every day players and then try and overhaul pitching. For what 5 years? we've had same results - it hasn't worked.

IF the fate of current regime is losing baseball :bang: :bang: :bang: at least can we watch a different style for a while? And who knows by playing a different and some might say "better" style, maybe a little more winning just might be a by-product?? stranger things have happened.........

Denorfia clearly has limited tools but his game is a nice change around here. Time to bust this team up a little.......

Im not interested in stranger things, just better. The way to get better is with better players, not ones that play a different style.

The reds style of offense is not, not, not, the reason they lose.

It's the pitching.

If trading some of that offense can bring the needed pitching, fine.

However, i have little confidence in th eability of this GM to make a wise trade for good pitching. My biggest fear is trading the best offensive playor on the team (Dunn) for another Eric Milton.

savafan
10-21-2005, 05:11 PM
If I'm trading Dunn to Houston, it'd be for Roy Oswalt straight up.

That's the only type of deal I make for Dunn, a proven major league pitcher.

Krusty
10-21-2005, 08:27 PM
I still like Dunn to LA for RHP Chad Billingsly and either RHP John Broxton or the infielder Guzman.

Scrap Irony
10-21-2005, 11:00 PM
It'd take Broxton, Billingsley, AND either Guzman, LaRoche, or Martin for me to pony up Dunn.

Nothing less.

M2
10-21-2005, 11:12 PM
It'd take Broxton, Billingsley, AND either Guzman, LaRoche, or Martin for me to pony up Dunn.

Nothing less.

Same here. My going price would be three picks from your litter. No reason to move Dunn for less.

lollipopcurve
10-22-2005, 10:12 AM
No reason to move Dunn for less.

If Dunn had to be dealt, I'd take quality over quantity (for example Billingsley and Broxton from LA rather than Josh Banks, Zach Jackson and David Purcey from Toronto or a bunch of Houston's prospects). Devil's in the details.

REDREAD
10-22-2005, 12:03 PM
If the Reds would have traded WMP or Kearns in the offseason do you think that would have been wise?


Of course it would've been wise. The Indians offered Cliff Lee for Kearns. Had we done that, we'd been a lot better off, even if Jr was injured all year.

It made no sense to hold onto an OF surplus when we need pitching as badly as we did. Why worry about the depth chart in the OF (possiblity of injuries) when you don't even have 5 legitimate guys for the rotation.

Had we gotten Cliff Lee, we could've used Ortiz's money to sign a backup OF and had a lot of change left over.

M2
10-22-2005, 12:44 PM
If Dunn had to be dealt, I'd take quality over quantity (for example Billingsley and Broxton from LA rather than Josh Banks, Zach Jackson and David Purcey from Toronto or a bunch of Houston's prospects). Devil's in the details.

I'd have to sit down for a long time and ponder that one. I'm not sure that is quality over quantity. In fact it might be three solid future major league pitchers vs. two well-pimped busts. This is where shrewd scouting comes in. In a deal like this a team like the Reds needs to slice through the interferece and make sure it gets real value.

dman
10-22-2005, 01:49 PM
I don't want to get these posts started (Trade Jr. For ......), but if one of our OF is going to be traded and it could be done, would Jr. to Toronto for Roy Halliday be an option? Toronto's spring training camp is near Tampa, and Jr. likely could become a DH and save some of the wear and tear on his body that playing CF puts on him.

Joseph
10-22-2005, 02:10 PM
I can't see Jr approving a deal to anywhere thats not already a contender dman. With Boston and NY in that division I wouldn't believe he'd want to go to a 'second division' club like that.

RedsManRick
10-22-2005, 02:28 PM
Why would Toronto trade one of the best pitchers in the AL for Junior? Halladay had the inside track on the Cy Young before getting injured. It's a shame we couldn't pull the trigger on the deal for Garland and that CF prospect from the White Sox. That would've been a steal.

M2
10-22-2005, 02:43 PM
Why would Toronto trade one of the best pitchers in the AL for Junior? Halladay had the inside track on the Cy Young before getting injured. It's a shame we couldn't pull the trigger on the deal for Garland and that CF prospect from the White Sox. That would've been a steal.

I doubt they'd deal Halladay myself, but perhaps Halladay's health, a middling offense and the need for some box office pull would make them open to the idea. That said, I imagine it would be near impossible to sell Jr. on the move.

IIRC, Garland was not part of that Jr. to the ChiSox deal. Young, Rogosin and an anonymous prospect arm was the deal as a I remember it.

RedsManRick
10-22-2005, 03:03 PM
Oops -- didn't mean garland. I meant to say Brandon McCarthy. I'm pretty sure I remember the offer being McCarthy and Young. At least that's what they were saying here in Chicago.

Don't the jays still have Hillenbrand, Koskie, and Hinske? Obviously they'd bench one for Junior, but they also have Catalanatto, Wells, Rios, Reed Johnson, and John Ford-Griffin in the OF. Just doesn't seem like a great fit. Not to mention, you think Junior would waive his 10-5 to play in Canada?

Anyways, I'm on the trade Pena train myself. Brutal defense and we need some guys on base more than we need more power. I think a Pena deal with the Twins for Crain (who is a personality conflict) and one of the young starters is the best fit for everybody.

lollipopcurve
10-22-2005, 09:02 PM
I'd have to sit down for a long time and ponder that one. I'm not sure that is quality over quantity. In fact it might be three solid future major league pitchers vs. two well-pimped busts. This is where shrewd scouting comes in. In a deal like this a team like the Reds needs to slice through the interferece and make sure it gets real value.

This is no doubt true. When the traffic is in minor league arms, albeit very highly regarded ones, one is taking calculated risks. I am concerned that O'Brien will shy away from the risk and instead bring back low to mid ceiling major league pitching for one of the outfielders. I'd rather see Billingsley than a Brandon Backe.

Raisor
10-23-2005, 05:53 PM
Just finished reading through this thread.

Dan O'Brien is an idiot.



If Adam Dunn is traded for a can of Raid and a bathtub brush, I'm going to be VERY put out.

foxfire123
10-23-2005, 06:26 PM
Pena would be better in the AL as a designated hitter. His D leaves much to be desired IMO. Keep Dunny and Kearns, and if anyone is dumb enough to pick up the contract AND give something good, maybe deal Griffey _for the right player<s> ONLY_. They'd have to be class-A right for the ball park starting type players. <can we get Oswalt?>

Foxfire123

foxfire123
10-23-2005, 06:31 PM
Does anyone else think that maybe they should tie O'B in his chair, duct tape his mouth and not let him near a phone until the new owners take over? It's been said that Lindner will step down if the new majority owners want him to, so maybe a wait and see attitude wouldn't be a bad thing.

Foxfire123