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SanDiegoRed
11-15-2005, 10:11 AM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SPT04

Joseph
11-15-2005, 10:51 AM
There hasn't been much Hot Stove news for the Reds, but here's an ember for fans: Former Reds manager Lou Piniella was in Cincinnati on Monday and was spotted in the downtown building where potential new owner Robert Castellini's offices are located.

Castellini is in the process of buying the Reds. Alan Nero, Piniella's agent, confirmed that Piniella was in Cincinnati.

"He was visiting friends," Nero told a St. Petersburg Times reporter. "Nothing is imminent, believe me."

Piniella managed the Tampa Bay Devils Rays last season. He was let out of his contract to pursue other opportunities.

Reds manager Jerry Narron is under a 1-year contract, as is general manager Dan O'Brien.

Puffy
11-15-2005, 10:59 AM
Wouldn't matter - a good chef can only be great with the best ingredients. As long as DanO is buying the groceries it doesn't matter who is cooking them.

Joseph
11-15-2005, 11:02 AM
Puffy = Bill Parcells

Just sayin...

westofyou
11-15-2005, 11:03 AM
Yep, the Reds need Lou like a hole in the head, forget the past and move forward Cincinnati or forever live in the mud.

redsfan30
11-15-2005, 11:03 AM
Very interesting development.

Sure, this is not a World Series team next season....but I think people would feel alittle better with Sweet Lou at the helm rather than Jerry Narron.

Chip R
11-15-2005, 11:24 AM
Red herring. IIRC, Castellini's office is in the Enquirer building which has many companies there.

savafan
11-15-2005, 11:25 AM
It would spark fan interest, which I think the Reds desperately need.

Reds4Life
11-15-2005, 11:26 AM
Hiring Lou, even though it might not make a difference for 2006, would send a message to the fans this ownership group is interested in moving this team in the right direction. Read the agent's comments, he didn't say they didn't have a meeting, he said "Nothing is imminent, believe me.", which in agent speak means they did indeed meet, but they are waiting for the sale to be finalized before things get official.

If they hire Lou I'll be one happy guy, and it will rekindle interest in the Reds among the casual fans.

westofyou
11-15-2005, 11:27 AM
It would spark fan interest, which I think the Reds desperately need.But it won't sell tickets, real interest is involved in winning, not multi year million dollar contracts for a manager who at last view was bored to death with his team in the AL.

macro
11-15-2005, 11:33 AM
Yep, the Reds need Lou like a hole in the head, forget the past and move forward Cincinnati or forever live in the mud.

I agree. The 1990 season has come and gone...a long time ago. Lou's time here provided us with some great memories, but it should be left at that. Besides, isn't Jerry Narron under contract for 2006?

Joseph
11-15-2005, 11:53 AM
This team could do worse than look to the D-Rays recent actions. New owner, new GM, new President, new on field manager, new developmental guys....etc. Clean sweep. And while we are sweeping out things we don't need anymore we can also sweep out this obsession with the old. I love antiques and relics and classic houses as much as anyone, I'm a historian in that regard, but the past belongs in the past and it's time to make a move to the future.

Milezinni
11-15-2005, 11:55 AM
The past is gone. Get over it.

If the projected new owners pulled a brainless move like that, it would only prove that they don't have a clue either.

Unless of course, they are looking at it as a quick promotional/marketing campaign to generate interest/season tickets for 06, in which case, I would understand, but would lose all respect for Lou for agreeing to it.

Narron did a pretty good job considering the circumstances and the roster. And with Bucky Dent coming in you would have to expect the IF defense to improve, if at least a little bit.

Now all the Reds need is someone, preferably this off season, to come in and show the starting rotation how to throw heavy sinkers.

O'Brian has Coffey working on his, and supposedly had Wagner perfecting the one he already threw.
Maybe they've got the starting rotation on a similar program.....

Either way that would be the quick fix that would allow the pitchers we already have to have a chance at success at the GABP.

Estaban Loaiza picked up a sinker in one offseason, came into the White Sox as a minor league FA, and ended up winning 20 games.

Donder
11-15-2005, 12:04 PM
I can't speak for other Reds fans, but I've always been a Lou fan and I would probably attend more games next year if he were the manager. He would certainly get me more excited about next season than Jerry Narron.

lollipopcurve
11-15-2005, 12:08 PM
I wouldn't criticize Piniella for getting frustrated in TB. He had Lamar and Naimoli over him -- had to be extrememly frustrating. Better that he voiced it and worked his way out than sat there collecting splinters.

westofyou
11-15-2005, 12:10 PM
Unless of course, they are looking at it as a quick promotional/marketing campaign to generate interest/season tickets for 06,

Otherwise known as the Milton Maneuver... that worked out well.

Shaknb8k
11-15-2005, 12:14 PM
I think the way the new owners are looking at it might be that they see a real good team a few years away. Which is probably right on the money. '07 might be a good year but we need a lot of luck in '06 for that to happen. '08 seems more reasonable but one could argue the playoffs will still be out of reach in that year also. So they are saying that this team is 2-3 years from being good no matter who the manager is. So we need a "stop-gap" for those years that could create some fan interest since there isnt going to be much on the field. And they see it that Lou is going to win more games than Narron no matter how you put it. And will also create a small amount of fan interst in '06 that will not be there with Narron.

That is just my take....i also think it could be very true he was just visiting friends. But the agents words are very interesting to me. Two weeks ago people were calling for major changes no matter what. Now there are rumors (and thats all they are) of changes and they arent good enough. I dont know about you but im all for this just cause it shows change from the past losing seasons. If teams would take notes from the world champions manager and let the guys on the field play. They know what they are doing just let them play and quit tinkering with the line-ups every game cause one of your hitters doesnt hit good on tuesday nights when theres a quarter of the moon in May when theres fireworks after the game. They are Major Leaguers they know whats going on. Maybe Lou isnt the answer but it is change so ill take it. But overall what I want from a manager is a little less managing and a little more babysitting. Keep the guys happy and let them do what they know how to do. Like i said, lou might not be the answer but if thats what we have to get if we want change then ill take and be very happy.

westofyou
11-15-2005, 12:22 PM
If teams would take notes from the world champions manager and let the guys on the field play. They know what they are doing just let them play and quit tinkering with the line-ups every game cause one of your hitters doesnt hit good on tuesday nights when theres a quarter of the moon in May when theres fireworks after the game.
Lou Pinella averages 119 different lineups per year, and has topped 120 5 out of the last 6 seasons (before 2005) That's about the norm in MLB.

Shaknb8k
11-15-2005, 12:23 PM
Exactly my point...like i just said Lou might not be the answer to my "perfect" manager. But ill take change before ill take my "perfect" manager. I would like to see what Guillen averaged. Kinda funny how the man going against the norm is the only one with a ring.

MartyFan
11-15-2005, 12:56 PM
The Reds are not as bad off as everyone thinks...a couple of starters?

If we get a couple of quality starters this team can make a push for the wildcard, maybe even the division...I know I am over enthusiastic but that is just me.

By the way, I like Lou but I would not be real excited to see him come in as manager. I believe Narron deserves a chance to work with the team for his contract...at that point make any changes.

I hear George Anderson and a young guy named Lasorda may be available..a young broadcasting superstar is working nicely out in LA, we should see if we can entice him to come this way!

Kc61
11-15-2005, 01:36 PM
Lou would be great. Not because of his strategic ability, or his clubhouse manner, or his lineups.

Lou will insist on changing the team so it has a chance to win. He left TB because he couldn't stand a team that wouldn't invest in winning. If Lou comes here, he's not about to accept another losing roster.

Someone like Lou is exactly what this team needs. A baseball manager/executive who has the guts to tell the top brass what it has to do to win. Not someone who is just thrilled to have the job. Someone who will insist on changes.

It doesn't have to be Lou. There are obviously others who can bring the same virtue to the table. But right now, you have a front office deciding which minor leaguers to acquire for WMP and which fill-in infielder and old reliever to acquire in free agency. Time for a strong hand.

Heath
11-15-2005, 01:40 PM
Why am i picturing George Grande & Lou Pinella on FSN Ohio this year?

redsfan30
11-15-2005, 01:56 PM
Lou would be great. Not because of his strategic ability, or his clubhouse manner, or his lineups.

Lou will insist on changing the team so it has a chance to win. He left TB because he couldn't stand a team that wouldn't invest in winning. If Lou comes here, he's not about to accept another losing roster.

Someone like Lou is exactly what this team needs. A baseball manager/executive who has the guts to tell the top brass what it has to do to win. Not someone who is just thrilled to have the job. Someone who will insist on changes.

It doesn't have to be Lou. There are obviously others who can bring the same virtue to the table. But right now, you have a front office deciding which minor leaguers to acquire for WMP and which fill-in infielder and old reliever to acquire in free agency. Time for a strong hand.
Great post.

westofyou
11-15-2005, 02:07 PM
Kinda funny how the man going against the norm is the only one with a ring.Casey Stengel platooned more than any manager in the 50's, The Great Eight started a total of 78 games in 75-76. The Red Sox used 141 different lineups in 2004, the second most in baseball and of course went on to win the WS.

BTW Lee Mazzilli of the Orioles used the fewest (104) in 2005, meaning that Ozzie is more normal than you'd think.

But then what is "normal" and what isn't?

Shaknb8k
11-15-2005, 02:26 PM
I didnt think Guillen used the fewest but im sure he was close to the bottom. I clearly remember an interview after game 4 this year on one of the main news channels when Guillen talked about just letting them play. Guillen said managers today over manage in almost every game. If a pitcher is doing good...then keep him in there. If a batter is hitting well...dont take him out because of a left handed pitcher is pitching. He said he did this because he knew if/when they made the playoffs then they needed to be able to pitch alot of innings to take pressure off the closer and pen and they need to be able to hit all types of pitchers. I dont think anyone can argue that he wasnt right. He also said many managers try and get on sportscenter every night by making there changes and by being front and center. He said he might make a few comments to spark interest in his team but once the playoffs got started he would take a back seat in the media and on the bench and let the players do their thing because they were the reason he got to the playoffs and he wasnt the reason they got there. I agree with him 100% and i really think thats a main reason why hes going into 2006 and trying to defend thier world championship.

Unassisted
11-15-2005, 03:37 PM
I posted this in the other thread, too. Maybe we're barking up the wrong tree here? Piniella was the GM of the Yanks for a time. Perhaps he was making his availability known for a future Reds GM opening?

shredda2000
11-15-2005, 03:42 PM
I posted this in the other thread, too. Maybe we're barking up the wrong tree here? Piniella was the GM of the Yanks for a time. Perhaps he was making his availability known for a future Reds GM opening?

Lou > DanO...works for me:thumbup:

tsj017
11-15-2005, 03:52 PM
It would be amusing to see this current bunch of Reds confronted with Sweet Lou. Sure, he's probably mellowed some with age, but I bet he hasn't mellowed that much.

Heath
11-15-2005, 03:57 PM
I don't think Lou had a good time being GM - IIRC.....

Matt700wlw
11-15-2005, 03:59 PM
I'd make the move yesterday.

Pay Jerry since he's under contract for this year, and let him go.

Shaknb8k
11-15-2005, 04:05 PM
I would like this even better than him being manager. Anything that gets dan O'brien out is fine with me.

larryboy
11-15-2005, 04:18 PM
Lou makes teams better and that would be great. Lou can not overcome bad managment as was shown in Tampa. He'll get the most out of what you give him but the Reds biggest problems are higher up in the organization.

Chip R
11-15-2005, 04:20 PM
Lou makes teams better and that would be great. Lou can not overcome bad managment as was shown in Tampa. He'll get the most out of what you give him but the Reds biggest problems are higher up in the organization.

Can he overcome bad pitching?

larryboy
11-15-2005, 04:25 PM
Can he overcome bad pitching?


If he has a front office that will get him better, yes. He gets the most out of what he has, but as I said the problems in the Reds org is top down.

Milezinni
11-15-2005, 06:30 PM
I hate to start an argument, but I have to disagree with you there.

I believe that this Reds team is alot WORSE than people realize. And this whole "the Reds are the #1 NL offense, just look at the numbers" just makes me laugh.

You could put Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, and Johan Santanna out there in a Reds uni, I still don't believe they could take the wild card.

buckeyenut
11-15-2005, 09:58 PM
I hate to start an argument, but I have to disagree with you there.

I believe that this Reds team is alot WORSE than people realize. And this whole "the Reds are the #1 NL offense, just look at the numbers" just makes me laugh.

You could put Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, and Johan Santanna out there in a Reds uni, I still don't believe they could take the wild card.

You put Pedro, Rocket, Santana in a reds uniform and one of them wins 25 games, all three top 20 and the Reds approach 100.

I would venture to guess that if you replace Wilson, Ortiz and Hudson, leaving Harang and Claussen to join the three above, you would improve the pitching from historically bad to top five in the major leagues.

Wesgate24
11-15-2005, 11:47 PM
Don't forget Lou's team was actually built by Pete. Lou just takes the credit for it!!!

Wesgate24
11-15-2005, 11:49 PM
This is 100% true. With three dominating number 1 pitchers the Royals could make the playoffs.

fs43340
11-16-2005, 12:21 AM
Don't forget Lou's team was actually built by Pete. Lou just takes the credit for it!!!
Did Pete have Billy Hatcher? I think not!

Ron Madden
11-16-2005, 05:49 AM
It would spark fan interest, which I think the Reds desperately need.

The Reds desperately need PITCHING which will lead to winning. That'll spark fan interest.;)

Ron Madden
11-16-2005, 06:11 AM
I hate to start an argument, but I have to disagree with you there.

I believe that this Reds team is alot WORSE than people realize. And this whole "the Reds are the #1 NL offense, just look at the numbers" just makes me laugh.

You could put Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, and Johan Santanna out there in a Reds uni, I still don't believe they could take the wild card.

How we lookin' Marty?:wave:

tsj017
11-16-2005, 02:24 PM
Did Pete have Billy Hatcher? I think not!

Good point. Pete didn't have Randy Myers, either.

redsfan30
11-16-2005, 03:11 PM
You could put Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, and Johan Santanna out there in a Reds uni, I still don't believe they could take the wild card.
:confused:

Chip R
11-16-2005, 05:21 PM
Good point. Pete didn't have Randy Myers, either.

But he did have John Franco.

westofyou
11-16-2005, 05:27 PM
But he did have John Franco.And a worse defense.

Chip R
11-16-2005, 05:31 PM
And a worse defense.

Ah yes. The magic that was Kal Daniels. The 80's answer to Wily Mo Pena but with less speed and power.

Milezinni
11-16-2005, 05:45 PM
Do you guys really believe that just going out and throwing top money at a top tier free agent pitcher or two is going to fix this team?!?

Your kidding right?

Do you really mean to tell me that you honestly believe that bringing in a Cy Young winner is going to have a CY Young season for the Reds?!?

So, what you are saying is, that these "magical" mystical pitchers on other teams NEVER have to rely on their defense to make some plays behind them?

They just strike out everybody?!? All 27 batters?

Never have to have a SS, or CF make some pretty spectacular plays at critical, clutch, pivotal points of a game to help them win?

Okay lets say you bring in, I don't know, Roger Clemens.

Let's say he averages out to 11 strikeouts a game (just for fun) that still leaves 16 outs your going to have to get some how, some way......

And with Dunn, Jr (who has slowed down quite a bit, let's admit it), Lopez, Encarnacion, Kearns, Pena, LaRue, and whoever they plug in at second base, and the bench, you really, REALLY believe that these guys can defend a pitcher, ANY pitcher to a 20 win season?!?

These are some of the worst defenders in all of baseball.

The only player we have that is at least half way decent with the glove is Freel, followed by Casey.

Let me tell you something, I have watched 9 different pitchers in my lifetime have 20+ win seasons, and they get their pitches put in play just as often as Ortiz, or Hudson, or Claussen or Milton the difference being the defense on those teams that help them win 20 games.

Ever notice a guy can win 15-16-17 games one season, and turn around and win 7-8 the next?

"Oh, there must be something wrong with the pitcher this season". Yeah, maybe, but more likely they lost some defensive ability somewhere (moved on to another team?) or somehow (great defenders do get hampered by injuries from time to time) that cost that pitcher those impressive numbers that would allow some GM to throw Millions of dollars at them.

Okay, I am not naive by any stretch of the imagination, and I do realize that one of the primary factors that led to a complete meltdown of our pitching staff this season was the pitchers control problems.

I mean, if the defense is set up for an 1-2 changeup inside to a right handed power hitter, and the pitcher misses completely and throws a 1-2 changeup, too hard, and down and over the outside corner SURE, that is going to affect the defensive alignments, but in NO WAY is this Reds team about to back up a quality pitcher and provide the kind of defense, and offense for that matter, that you guys seem to think they will.

No way....

I am not excusing the pitching staff for everything, but, no way do you put this season entirely on the shoulders of the pitchers.

Look at the Astros of 05. Sure they had Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, and Roy Oswalt.
But the one thing that they had that nobody these days seems to put much of a premium on is they also had some really spectacular defense.

And the White Sox too, especially the White Sox. I watched their entire season, well 110 games or so, and you can go on and on about the pitching, but, they got some absolutely spectacular defense from all 9 guys on the field, and I mean constantly.
And at the most critical times too. Absolute highlight reels......

And that's a fact.

And I will tell you something else, you put Claussen or Ortiz on the Astros, or White Sox this past season, and they could easily have picked up another 7-8 wins!

Maybe even have gotten Milton over .500.....

Boss-Hog
11-16-2005, 05:53 PM
Good luck finding a way to defense the three run gopher ball.

Chip R
11-16-2005, 06:03 PM
Maybe even have gotten Milton over .500.....
Magic 8 Ball says...

fs43340
11-16-2005, 06:04 PM
But he did have John Franco. Did John Franco help the Reds win a World Championship? I think not!

Milezinni
11-16-2005, 06:18 PM
Okay?!?

Are you guys really trying to tell me that, not in any instance, did you see the defense (SS, or 3b, or Dunn maybe?) that gave a team a 4th out to an inning, just BEFORE Milton, or Ortiz or Hudson gave up a homerun in that inning?!?

Not once?

Never did this defense allow a baserunner, forcing the pitcher into the stretch (maybe for the first time in the game) or distracting him, because of their limited range, limited arms, limited baseball sense, and limited playmaking ability?

Thats total BS, because I saw quite a few of them myself. Sure, the numbers stack up as high ERA's and wins and losses against the pitcher but I know for a fact that some of the losses I saw I would put squarely on the shoulders of this horrible defense.

And I am not just talking about obvious errors either.

Despite what you guys might think is going on in the FO, they are not complete idiots.
They see whats going on, they are just handcuffed into what they can realistically do to fix it.
Especially with the pending sale of the team.

And I know alot of you here don't want to hear that, but......

Chip R
11-16-2005, 06:28 PM
think is going on in the FO, they are not complete idiots.


Just partial idiots, right?

wheels
11-16-2005, 09:14 PM
Okay?!?

Are you guys really trying to tell me that, not in any instance, did you see the defense (SS, or 3b, or Dunn maybe?) that gave a team a 4th out to an inning, just BEFORE Milton, or Ortiz or Hudson gave up a homerun in that inning?!?

Not once?

Never did this defense allow a baserunner, forcing the pitcher into the stretch (maybe for the first time in the game) or distracting him, because of their limited range, limited arms, limited baseball sense, and limited playmaking ability?

Thats total BS, because I saw quite a few of them myself. Sure, the numbers stack up as high ERA's and wins and losses against the pitcher but I know for a fact that some of the losses I saw I would put squarely on the shoulders of this horrible defense.

And I am not just talking about obvious errors either.

Despite what you guys might think is going on in the FO, they are not complete idiots.
They see whats going on, they are just handcuffed into what they can realistically do to fix it.
Especially with the pending sale of the team.

And I know alot of you here don't want to hear that, but......

How many Reds games did you see this past season?

TheGARB
11-16-2005, 09:59 PM
Are you guys really trying to tell me that, not in any instance, did you see the defense (SS, or 3b, or Dunn maybe?) that gave a team a 4th out to an inning, just BEFORE Milton, or Ortiz or Hudson gave up a homerun in that inning?!?

Not once?


First of all, I don't think anyone ever said that it NEVER happened, just that it's not the primary source of trouble for the Reds pitching staff. But just for the heck of it, I looked into it a little further.

Here is the breakdown for 2005 of home runs by the 3 pitchers you mentioned:


w/ 2 out and
Total w/ Runners on w/ 2 outs runners on
----- ------------- --------- -------------
Milton 40 17 17 7
Ortiz 34 16 5 3
Hudson 14 7 6 5


So, there are 15 instances of home runs (out of 88 total) surrendered by these 3 guys where you statement could hold true. How many really apply to it? Here are the game logs for each of the home runs:

Eric Milton:

Batter Event
Before Before
Date Opp Homer Homer How scoring runner reached
------- --------- --------- ----------- --------------------------
4/26/05 Cubs Burnitz Single 2-out single
5/23/05 Nationals Schneider Ground Out 1-out error by Lopez
5/28/05 Pirates Bay Fly out No out single
6/18/05 Braves Giles Single 2-out single
7/21/05 Cubs Hairston Pop out 1-out single scores a runner
8/05/05 Marlins Conine Force out 1-out single
5/18/05 Mets Wright Fly out No out walk


Ramon Ortiz:

Batter Event
Before Before
Date Opp Homer Homer How scoring runner reached
------- --------- --------- ----------- --------------------------
9/21/05 Cardinals Marquis Ground out No out single
7/27/05 Dodgers Kent Double 1-out error by Lopez
5/17/05 Mets Wright Fly out 1-out single


Luke Hudson:

Batter Event
Before Before
Date Opp Homer Homer How scoring runner reached
------- --------- --------- ----------- --------------------------
9/03/05 Braves Laroach Walk No out single, big inning
6/09/05 Devil Rays Perez Ground out 1-out walk
7/01/05 Astros Berkman Single No out single, 1-out HBP, 2-out walk
7/19/05 Cubs Burnitz Walk 2-out double & walk
9/09/05 Pirates J. Wilson Double 2-out single & double

I've looked into the game logs in a little more detail than what I put here, but I would say the defense contributed to maybe 4 instances of giving extra outs to these three pitchers just before they gave up home runs. It's hard to tell at this point without re-watching the games, but I don't have that ability.

Anyway, the ultimate point is not to list out all of these instances. That was just silly research that I did. The real point is that your contention that the defense was a major factor in the poor performance by the pitching staff doesn't hold that much water.
That's not to say the defense shouldn't be improved, but only seven times this year did the Milton give up home runs with runners on and 2 outs. That's not even 20% of the home runs he surrendered. And even if every one of them was a result of a failure by the defense leading to extra outs, the guy makes $8 million a year. Isn't it reasonable to expect that he can get out of those types of situations every once in a while?

Patrick Bateman
11-16-2005, 10:02 PM
I hate to start an argument, but I have to disagree with you there.

I believe that this Reds team is alot WORSE than people realize. And this whole "the Reds are the #1 NL offense, just look at the numbers" just makes me laugh.

You could put Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, and Johan Santanna out there in a Reds uni, I still don't believe they could take the wild card.

If that somehow happened, the Reds would be by far the best team in baseball.

marcshoe
11-17-2005, 12:20 AM
Unless, of course, you played the three in the outfield. Maybe that's what he meant.

Anyway, seems from the Hot Stove League thread that the rumors (or at least the speculation) have definitely begun.

wheels
11-17-2005, 02:15 AM
First of all, I don't think anyone ever said that it NEVER happened, just that it's not the primary source of trouble for the Reds pitching staff. But just for the heck of it, I looked into it a little further.

Here is the breakdown for 2005 of home runs by the 3 pitchers you mentioned:


w/ 2 out and
Total w/ Runners on w/ 2 outs runners on
----- ------------- --------- -------------
Milton 40 17 17 7
Ortiz 34 16 5 3
Hudson 14 7 6 5


So, there are 15 instances of home runs (out of 88 total) surrendered by these 3 guys where you statement could hold true. How many really apply to it? Here are the game logs for each of the home runs:

Eric Milton:

Batter Event
Before Before
Date Opp Homer Homer How scoring runner reached
------- --------- --------- ----------- --------------------------
4/26/05 Cubs Burnitz Single 2-out single
5/23/05 Nationals Schneider Ground Out 1-out error by Lopez
5/28/05 Pirates Bay Fly out No out single
6/18/05 Braves Giles Single 2-out single
7/21/05 Cubs Hairston Pop out 1-out single scores a runner
8/05/05 Marlins Conine Force out 1-out single
5/18/05 Mets Wright Fly out No out walk


Ramon Ortiz:

Batter Event
Before Before
Date Opp Homer Homer How scoring runner reached
------- --------- --------- ----------- --------------------------
9/21/05 Cardinals Marquis Ground out No out single
7/27/05 Dodgers Kent Double 1-out error by Lopez
5/17/05 Mets Wright Fly out 1-out single


Luke Hudson:

Batter Event
Before Before
Date Opp Homer Homer How scoring runner reached
------- --------- --------- ----------- --------------------------
9/03/05 Braves Laroach Walk No out single, big inning
6/09/05 Devil Rays Perez Ground out 1-out walk
7/01/05 Astros Berkman Single No out single, 1-out HBP, 2-out walk
7/19/05 Cubs Burnitz Walk 2-out double & walk
9/09/05 Pirates J. Wilson Double 2-out single & double

I've looked into the game logs in a little more detail than what I put here, but I would say the defense contributed to maybe 4 instances of giving extra outs to these three pitchers just before they gave up home runs. It's hard to tell at this point without re-watching the games, but I don't have that ability.

Anyway, the ultimate point is not to list out all of these instances. That was just silly research that I did. The real point is that your contention that the defense was a major factor in the poor performance by the pitching staff doesn't hold that much water.
That's not to say the defense shouldn't be improved, but only seven times this year did the Milton give up home runs with runners on and 2 outs. That's not even 20% of the home runs he surrendered. And even if every one of them was a result of a failure by the defense leading to extra outs, the guy makes $8 million a year. Isn't it reasonable to expect that he can get out of those types of situations every once in a while?

Thank you.

The guy's already admitted that he's only seen a scant few games over the past year, but still he feels that he's some kind of authority.

Milezinni
11-17-2005, 01:49 PM
Thank you.

The guy's already admitted that he's only seen a scant few games over the past year, but still he feels that he's some kind of authority.


There you guys go again. Pure brilliance.

Okay, for the 127th time. I catch 16-19 Reds games a season on television.
I catch maybe another 10-12 afternoon games if I am at work.

And I watch every single highlight of every single game on MLB.com, as well as reconstruct what happened, typically play by play, and I read alot of scouting reports.

But that's just the Reds, I actually watch alot more baseball than that.

Now, going back to the spindoctor.

I threw out as an example the 4th out to an inning. But, my point is just as valid to ANY HITTER ON BASE?!? Which was the point I was referring too, nice move on spinning the stats to fit your argument though. You should be a senator, or lawyer.

In your own example that would mean of the 88 homeruns that Milton, Ortiz, and Hudon gave up this past season, 40 of them had a play right before it that allowed a baserunner.

So how many of those baserunners got on where, and of course it's very speculative, a gold glove calibre solid glove man might have seriously prevented the runner in the first place?

What was your conclusion......4?!?

How did you come up with that one?

tsj017
11-17-2005, 02:30 PM
Did John Franco help the Reds win a World Championship? I think not!

But he did, at least partially, cost the Reds a pennant in '87.

Not that I've held that against him ever since or anything.

OldRightHander
11-17-2005, 02:33 PM
Ok, while it may be true that poor defense can at times hinder good pitching, how often does that happen. Really good pitching can at times make a so so defense better because when a pitcher is going well, the hitters aren't making quality contact when they're putting the ball in play. Even a mediocre fielder can make the routine plays on a regular basis, but when hitters are hitting frozen ropes off a pitcher, it doesn't matter if there are 8 gold glovers out there. A couple good starters might not be the last piece to a championship, but you can't say the team would not be improved immensely. It takes pitching, defense, and hitting to win, but really good pitching can make up for deficiencies in the other areas. Sure the Reds need to improve defensively, but better pitching would no doubt help the defense.

TheGARB
11-17-2005, 02:53 PM
Now, going back to the spindoctor.

I'm a spin doctor? Does that make you "Little Mis[ter] Can't Be Wrong (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/spin-doctors/128850.html)"? :D



I threw out as an example the 4th out to an inning. But, my point is just as valid to ANY HITTER ON BASE?!? Which was the point I was referring too, nice move on spinning the stats to fit your argument though. You should be a senator, or lawyer.


I apologize for addressing a direct question in your post. Would you rather I make my own assumptions about what you are trying to say and argue those points? I wasn't trying to spin anything. In fact, I only posted the stats as a point of reference. I suppose I could've left them out completely, but then it would look like I am making blind, blanket statements about the way I believed things to be without any evidence.

And I'd be a terrible senator or lawyer - I'm much too honest. No offense to any senators or lawyers who frequent this board.



In your own example that would mean of the 88 homeruns that Milton, Ortiz, and Hudon gave up this past season, 40 of them had a play right before it that allowed a baserunner.

So how many of those baserunners got on where, and of course it's very speculative, a gold glove calibre solid glove man might have seriously prevented the runner in the first place?


First of all, would you define what you mean by "right before" because I keep reading it as meaning the play immediately preceeding the home run. Do you mean it that way, or is it any play preceeding a home run?

Secondly, I would be glad to help out with the research on that, but it's quite time consuming, so I'd like it if we can define the parameters of the argument first. Are we trying to find just one instance where this is the case? 10? Can you give me an approximate number where we can reasonably say that a pitcher would have much better results had it not been for the defense?

I'm fine with saying that the defense is lacking, though I think your categorization of EdE is wrong. I'm an advocate of the Reds trying to find cheap defensive help this off season, but not before they try to find pitching help. But my point is that even with better fielding, the pitching is still bad. Milton, Wilson, and Ortiz have been bad with other defenses behind them. And they'll continue to be bad even if the Reds had 8 gold glovers out there.



What was your conclusion......4?!?

How did you come up with that one?

I don' t have the raw data with me right now, but as I recall, there were 2 errors by Lopez and then maybe 2 or 3 other plays that were not described in the game cast as a line drive or an extra base hit. I thought it was reasonable to assume that if the pitcher had already gotten himself into trouble (a common theme for Hudson), that the fielders couldn't take all of the blame unless they flat out errored. And remember, I was only looking at 2-out homers. Four may not be totally accurate, but I'd feel comfortable saying that it's close to that. As I said, without actually re-watching the games, I don't think we could tell precisely.

westofyou
11-17-2005, 02:55 PM
but then it would look like I am making blind, blanket statements about the way I believed things to be without any evidence.Lord knows that never happens around here.

Blimpie
11-17-2005, 02:58 PM
Don't forget Lou's team was actually built by Pete. Lou just takes the credit for it!!!Spoken like a Rick Pitino fan...;)

wheels
11-17-2005, 10:21 PM
There you guys go again. Pure brilliance.

Okay, for the 127th time. I catch 16-19 Reds games a season on television.
I catch maybe another 10-12 afternoon games if I am at work.

And I watch every single highlight of every single game on MLB.com, as well as reconstruct what happened, typically play by play, and I read alot of scouting reports.

But that's just the Reds, I actually watch alot more baseball than that.


:laugh: :laugh:

Heath
11-17-2005, 10:57 PM
Did someone say "The Spin Doctors" ????

I've always enjoyed "Jimmy Olsen Blues"

Matt700wlw
11-19-2005, 01:15 PM
Did John Franco help the Reds win a World Championship? I think not!

Sort of....the Reds traded him for Randy Myers :D

RFS62
11-19-2005, 01:39 PM
So.... it was the defense and not the pitching. And the offense wasn't really that good.

Wow.

If you got that from watching 16 to 19 games, I suggest you try watching 125 or more Reds games every year, like many of us here do.

'Cause that just ain't gettin' it done, partner.

BoydsOfSummer
11-19-2005, 03:35 PM
If you got that from watching 16 to 19 games, I suggest you try watching 125 or more Reds games every year, like many of us here do.



And anybody who'll put themselves through the torture that is George Grande and Chris Wesh can never be catergorized as anything but a serious and dedicated fan.

Redsland
11-20-2005, 12:38 PM
suggest you try watching 125 or more Reds games every year, like many of us here do.
Oh, come on. You know most of us never watch any games.

:bang:
:beerme:

MWM
11-20-2005, 12:59 PM
Pete Rose NEVER built a baseball team. NEVER!!!!!!!

westofyou
11-20-2005, 01:00 PM
Pete Rose NEVER built a baseball team. NEVER!!!!!!!Guys that build teams usually don't give 237 ab's to 45 year old guys with this line .219/.316/.270.

Unassisted
11-20-2005, 01:40 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051120/COL09/511200420/1004

Reds insider: Sweet Lou would be a nice addition
Much hinges on new ownership

By John Fay
Enquirer staff writer

Now that we know Lou Piniella met with the Reds CEO-to-be, we can only guess what they talked about. It's safe to say Lou didn't come to Cincinnati to get Robert Castellini's tips on finding fresh cantaloupe in Tampa.

Piniella is basically a free agent and the biggest name available.

That doesn't mean Castellini wants him to manage. He could bring Piniella in as a consultant or special scout.

Piniella has been mentioned for the Los Angeles Dodgers manager job. But he doesn't seem in a rush to get a job. He just recently negotiated a buyout of his contract with the Tampa Bay Devils Rays.

"I haven't pressed anything. I'll be quite honest with you. I've talked to a couple teams, but I basically haven't pressed anything," he told the Los Angeles Times. "I was going to take it easy for a while. I wouldn't be in a hurry to do anything."

So perhaps a scouting/adviser gig would be appealing. He could work out of Tampa - and remain available if the New York Yankees job opens after next season.

The Piniella situation is like all things Reds these days: We'll know a lot more when Castellini and his partners officially take over.

BrooklynRedz
11-20-2005, 01:51 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051120/COL09/511200420/1004

This might be a small detail, but where and when did we get confirmation that Lou did in fact meet with Castellini? Last I read, his agent said he had met with friends in the same building. I didn't believe that for a minute but was just curious how we skipped a step in this "drama" unfolding...

Reds4Life
11-20-2005, 02:04 PM
This might be a small detail, but where and when did we get confirmation that Lou did in fact meet with Castellini? Last I read, his agent said he had met with friends in the same building. I didn't believe that for a minute but was just curious how we skipped a step in this "drama" unfolding...

Lou confirmed he had a meeting with Castellini when he was interviewed by a reporter writing about the LA job.

I don't see Lou taking a consulting or scouting job here, if he returns it will be as manager. It's the quickest way the Castellini can make a good impression with the fans.

redsfan4445
11-20-2005, 10:10 PM
There was no link, but a small blurb on left side of front page of the sports section on Nov 18th. Said it was confirmed (written by John Fay), that Lou was in town and DID meet with Castellini..

Reds4Life
11-20-2005, 10:28 PM
There was no link, but a small blurb on left side of front page of the sports section on Nov 18th. Said it was confirmed (written by John Fay), that Lou was in town and DID meet with Castellini..

There is a link and article, it was posted here.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41150


Piniella said Thursday he had not yet spoken to Colletti, and Piniella expressed minimal interest in becoming the next Dodger manager.

"It would be a longshot," he said.

Piniella is the rare baseball manager who, rather than have unemployment thrust upon him, has chosen it.

He has managed four teams since 1986, when he won 90 games with the New York Yankees, and has sat out one season, between the Yankees' fifth-place finish in 1988 and the Cincinnati Reds' World Series championship in 1990.

At 62, having buried his father, Louis Sr., in February, and having directed the buyout of his contract with the Tampa Bay Devil Rays last month, Piniella is home in Tampa, unaffiliated with a major league organization, and uncertain what the next baseball season will hold.

Though Piniella fits Colletti's vision of a proven winner, Piniella is reasonably sure he will not be in Los Angeles come April.

He only recently negotiated his way out of an organization that did not spend to his expectations. There are signs, however, that Piniella already is feeling the pull of the game. He said he met and had "a nice talk" this week with the next owner of the Reds, Robert Castellini, and acknowledged having received at least one other phone call from a major league team.

wheels
11-20-2005, 11:00 PM
Can Lou pitch?

OldRightHander
11-21-2005, 10:03 AM
Can Lou pitch?

Couldn't be any worse than Milton.

BrooklynRedz
11-21-2005, 11:47 AM
Cool. Thanks for the link.