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View Full Version : Paul Wilson...The Truth Can Now Be Told



dougflynn23
11-20-2005, 02:33 AM
:) As some of you are aware, I have a close friend who was a front office employee of the Texas Rangers from 1998 until about two weeks ago when he left to join another MLB team. He had told me this a year and a half ago, but it is only now that I can make it public. I have known this person since I was 4 years old (38 years) and his reliability is impeccible.

During the entire month of July, 2004, Dan O'Brien and John Hart spoke almost daily about a trade that would send Paul Wilson to Texas. On July 26th, a tentative trade was made that would send Paul Wilson and P Todd Jones to Texas in exchange for SS Ian Kinsler and P Erik Thompson. The only hold-up was that the Rangers had an existing offer out to the Colorado Rockies that involved Kinsler; a trade that would bring Larry Walker to Texas. The Rangers thought the deal was dead, and told Dan O'Brien they needed to call to make sure (they did not tell O'Brien the other team involved). Upon making the call, the Rockies accepted the trade that had been offered a few days before, contingent on Walker's approval as a 10/5 player with a no trade contract. According to my friend, Walker told Texas he was leaning towards accepting the trade, so Hart told O'Brien the deal was off. 2 days later, Todd Jones was traded to the Phillies. A day or 2 after that, Walker refused the trade to the Rangers...only to accept a deal to St. Louis a week later after clearing waivers. Wilson cleared waivers, but if you recall in early August Wilson started getting pounded and went on the DL with a bad back.

Dan O'Brien tried to trade Paul Wilson, had a great deal set up for him, and it unfortunately fell apart due to no fault of his. The Rangers pulled the offer based on early reports that Larry Walker would accept the trade. Had he said no, Ian Kinsler would now be a Red. Blame O'Brien for perhaps not having a Plan B or C in place, but stop saying he wasn't allowed to trade or refused to trade Wilson. He came very close to doing it.

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 03:18 AM
Good to hear...I get tired of all the bashing that goes on in here.

DoogMinAmo
11-20-2005, 03:43 AM
So the deal went from top tier shortstop and throwin pitcher for TJ and PW, to scrappy SS and throw away pitcher for just TJ.

Seems like DanO had his mind made up on the return, just the names were a little fuzzy. While this proposed trade probably would have been lauded by the RZ faithful, the resultant actual trade was far from it in quality, and reaks of desperation.

I am not scared of DanO being able to spot a good deal, or even form one for that matter. It is the creativity, I fear, that he lacks, to make something from nothing... to turn a busted great trade into another great one, or atleast a good one. Machado and Hancock was not good enough. Bowden, for all his shortcomings, was a master of this. (Most of the time, atleast... Brian Moehler, eek.)

Is it really so frightful to think that maybe the ideal GM is a hybrid of our previous two?

M2
11-20-2005, 03:47 AM
Blame O'Brien for perhaps not having a Plan B or C in place, but stop saying he wasn't allowed to trade or refused to trade Wilson. He came very close to doing it.

What I blame him for is not being able to move pitching to a team that needed pitching. You've got to be able to close the deal. I get the sense DanO talks a lot on his way to accomplishing nothing.

Paul Wilson's a WAY better pitcher than Larry Walker and DanO had connections in Texas. If he can't make that trade then it leaves me with little hope he's ever going to succeed in that arena.

Meanwhile Jon Daniels looks like he's about to land Josh Beckett in his first month running the Rangers.

SteelSD
11-20-2005, 04:56 AM
What I blame him for is not being able to move pitching to a team that needed pitching. You've got to be able to close the deal. I get the sense DanO talks a lot on his way to accomplishing nothing.

Yepper. If I have something you want and you've named your price, I have no one to blame but myself if you do not end up owning it. That's the difference between playing the market and letting the market play you.

There's also a problem (or three) with the timeline and the circumstances surrounding the Wilson non-trade:


Wilson cleared waivers, but if you recall in early August Wilson started getting pounded and went on the DL with a bad back.

Paul Wilson's last start before the trade deadline netted him five earnies in 7.2 IP. That followed a 6 IP/4 ER performance the start prior. However, Wilson's first start after the trade deadline produced a 7 IP/3 ER performance. His next start came after Walker was already dealt and Wilson had already cleared waivers. At this point, anyone already interested in Wilson should have jumped at the chance to acquire him if they still had what it would have taken to get him two weeks ago.

Wilson's first start of August should have been seen by anyone wanting to acquire him as further justification that he could help down the stretch run- not evidence of his suckitude.

Todd Jones' availability was irrelevant. The Rangers didn't scurry at the trade deadline to grab a reliever. They did nothing to grab a MLB reliever at the trade deadline and, in fact, the only move the Rangers did make on the pitching side was to take a PTBNL flier on Scott Erickson. And if a single bad start were enough to move Hart off pitcher, Erickson's 2.0 IP/6 ER performance against Montreal (of all teams) on 7/26 should have been enough to convince him to stay away.

As of August 12th, there should have been nothing preventing John Hart from STILL moving on a Kinsler-for-Wilson trade, particularly after Wilson's strong start on August first (if we're to believe that Hart was going start-by-start with pitchers he was looking to acquire). Even Wilson's 2nd start on August 7th (5.1 IP- 7 ER) shouldn't have been enough to dissuade Hart from trading for him considering that blowup happened in Coors Field. Wilson's next start (the SD implosion that ended up getting him DL'd) was irrelevant because if Wilson was going to move he would have moved by then.

In an environment where Ismael Valdez could be moved (ironically, for Travis Chick) at the deadline, there was simply no reason that Paul Wilson couldn't have been moved for real value- either at the deadline or within a week thereafter. The idea that O'Brien couldn't move Wilson to a team that (allegedly) wanted him and still had the purchase price while Wilson was still healthy and available is nothing but an indictment of O'Brien's ability. The fact that O'Brien didn't have a plan B or plan C in place is nothing but inexcusable considering the crap that exchanged hands at last year's deadline.

wheels
11-20-2005, 10:12 AM
And none of that excuses O'Brien for that fat contract he gave him in the offseason.

Even though he knew he was a shoulder blowup waiting to happen.

Even though he wanted to trade him at the deadline.

Ineptitude, followed by lunacy.

Falls City Beer
11-20-2005, 10:52 AM
Ice-cold comfort.

Chip R
11-20-2005, 10:54 AM
And none of that excuses O'Brien for that fat contract he gave him in the offseason.

Even though he knew he was a shoulder blowup waiting to happen.

Even though he wanted to trade him at the deadline.

Ineptitude, followed by lunacy.

Excellent point, wheels. I know he's a hard worker and the other players loved having him around but if the players need a buddy or a mentor, hire him as a coach.

westofyou
11-20-2005, 11:11 AM
And none of that excuses O'Brien for that fat contract he gave him in the offseason.

Even though he knew he was a shoulder blowup waiting to happen.

Even though he wanted to trade him at the deadline.

Ineptitude, followed by lunacy.

And none of that excuses O'Brien for that fat contract he gave him in the offseason.Bingo!!

Good to hear...I get tired of all the bashing that goes on in here.Really? I get tired of all the excuses myself.

RFS62
11-20-2005, 11:37 AM
And none of that excuses O'Brien for that fat contract he gave him in the offseason.

Even though he knew he was a shoulder blowup waiting to happen.

Even though he wanted to trade him at the deadline.




Yep.

I always appreciate it when we get inside info from behind the scenes. So much goes into every decision that we aren't privy too. Sometimes, our best guess at what's going on doesn't paint a complete picture.

Then again, sometimes it does.

It almost makes the resigning more of a mistake when you consider that the reasons DanO often cited to keep Wilson weren't enough to keep him when he had this trade on the table (i.e. work ethic, clubhouse chemistry, etc.).

Damaged wing + fading down the stretch = fat contract. Very bad math.

Redsland
11-20-2005, 12:35 PM
Dan O'Brien tried to trade Paul Wilson, had a great deal set up for him, and it unfortunately fell apart due to no fault of his.
It's nice to hear that our GM actually had an iron in the fire that cold July day. But I expect him to have a lot more than that going on at that time of year. Bob and weave. "No Kinsler? Okay, what about this other move? Are you sure you want to wait? Because I've got another GM on the line right now and he wants Wilson BAD."

Sounds like DanO was content to be Plan B instead of trying to force the issue. And honestly, if you can't move an All-Star caliber veteran starting pitcher at the deadline in the walk year of his contract, then you couldn't move ice cubes in Hell.

wheels
11-20-2005, 01:03 PM
I'm still waiting for excuses for why he didn't trade Graves at the time, especially when he had gawdy save totals.

Hubba
11-20-2005, 02:23 PM
I'm still waiting for excuses for why he didn't trade Graves at the time, especially when he had gawdy save totals.Since you seem to know all I will ask you the same question that I ask before, TO whom for whom? Who would have wanted Graves. I need to know.

gonelong
11-20-2005, 02:30 PM
Good to hear...I get tired of all the bashing that goes on in here.

Trying is great for high school kids, etc.

When you are involved in Sports at these levels there is no try. You either do or you don't.

Dano don't.

GL

westofyou
11-20-2005, 02:49 PM
Hey Wheels, since you seem to know *everything* can you tell me where my GBV Bee Thousand CD is?

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 02:51 PM
I am curious to know what level of expertise you people have accomplished in your own career...I mean you all look at the sports page, the roster and the systems of other teams and then you say "This is what we should do to make this team great"...which is fine in the fantasy league you guys play in...but the dyynamics of actually doing something are a lot different than fantasy leagues because there is another skilled group or individual who doesn't want Danny Graves or Paul Wislon.

Signing Wilson to a longterm deal was a bad move...no doubt. I'll say it again he signed Wilson to pacify the fans the same way the Pants did Haynes after his one good year here....BAD MOVE...but again, the fans and media were so far on his side on some levels it is beter to do that than to rock the boat...when you are a leader you have to pick your battles.

I am disapointed that DanO has not moved Milton yet...moving Casey is a pipe dream...we'll have him through his contract or we'll deal him at the deadline.

As for why he did not deal Graves? It's pretty obvious that until he fell off the wagon he was lights out...then his decline was RAPID...who would take him? What would we have gotten for him? Would any of you have been happy with that return? (Oh yeah, because we would have got something!)

This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn...he is the "all in chip" we have to play to get the arms help we need on the MLB ready level.

gonelong
11-20-2005, 03:50 PM
I am curious to know what level of expertise you people have accomplished in your own career.

I think you'll find quite a few highly education people, and more that are well respected in their chosen professions. I'd image you find at least a handful that have published work. (A couple of the fellas had one of their baseball articles published a few seasons ago, imagine that.) I also venture to guess that you'd find quite a few people here that run their own business, or side-business.

I also think you'd find quite a few people that hire, fire, and "trade" employees as a part of their profession.


...but the dyynamics of actually doing something are a lot different than fantasy leagues because there is another skilled group or individual who doesn't want Danny Graves or Paul Wislon.

Which is why we are continually griping about the Front office both past and present. Those among the skilled don't want a Graves or Wilson, yet somehow, we overpay for both of them?


Signing Wilson to a longterm deal was a bad move...no doubt. I'll say it again he signed Wilson to pacify the fans the same way the Pants did Haynes after his one good year here....BAD MOVE...but again, the fans and media were so far on his side on some levels it is beter to do that than to rock the boat... when you are a leader you have to pick your battles.

If you are a leader, you lead. If you are making moves to placate the masses you are not leading, you are following.


I am disapointed that DanO has not moved Milton yet...moving Casey is a pipe dream...we'll have him through his contract or we'll deal him at the deadline.

Two more overpaid players ... see a pattern yet?


As for why he did not deal Graves? It's pretty obvious that until he fell off the wagon he was lights out...then his decline was RAPID...who would take him? What would we have gotten for him? Would any of you have been happy with that return? (Oh yeah, because we would have got something!)

Many of us would have traded him at the All-Star break the year before, check the search function. A leader would have traded him while he was overperforming and took the heat, knowing he would be better off in the future.


This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn...he is the "all in chip" we have to play to get the arms help we need on the MLB ready level.

This team is definetely in that bad of shape. We need to replace most of our pitching staff to have a realistic opportunity for playoff contention.

We have a very nice offense. That side of the house is in order. The issues we have is that we have absolutely putrid pitching and are pretty ugly defensively as well.

I have no issues trading Dunn, provided the return is pitching, and its spectacular. Given that DanO didn't unload Graves, signed Milton, Ortiz, and Wilson ... do you expect him to get a spectacular haul by trading Dunn?

I know sure don't.

GL

Raisor
11-20-2005, 04:03 PM
I have no issues trading Dunn, provided the return is pitching, and its spectacular. Given that DanO didn't unload Graves, signed Milton, Ortiz, and Wilson ... do you expect him to get a spectacular haul by trading Dunn?

I know sure don't.

GL


You can say that again.

There's no way I trust O'Brien to make a deal involvoing Dunn.

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 05:50 PM
GL:

Congrats to the couple who had articles published...run a business...hire and fire people...it's one thing to be in that position and still another to be effective at it.

I'm wondering if these professionals make it too their equal of the playoffs each year? Are they growing their business? Are they closing 60% or more of their opportunities? How bout articles? How many have been published? Enough to make a decent living?

My point being I doubt many if any would be able to stand up to the same critique of their career that DanO endures from this group.

Something to think on..

Your perception of leadership is WAY OFF...leaders do not lead by simply ignoring the voices of those around them...Read some of the books put out by Maxwell, Covey or many others...there is a bigger picture to leadership...sometimes you "go your way"...sometimes you "go the way of the masses" so you can continue to strengthen your position so they will follow you when they are needed.

I still think we are on the road to improvement with DanO...especially over what we have had to work with in the organization...this was not an overnight task he took on and for anyone to think this team was going to make a run at the playoffs last year and maybe next year is just out of their mind...the way this organization will thrive is to go OLD SCHOOL...develop their own talent and not be infatuated by FA's.

Cooper
11-20-2005, 06:21 PM
Are we gonna have a thread about "leadership". I hear this crap every day at work and all cliches and "action plans" and acronyms that stand for cute things you want to get done.

The only thing that matters is positive results. DanO has had hardly any.

dougflynn23
11-20-2005, 06:30 PM
:) From what I'm told, Dan O'Brien did everything he could after the deadline to revive the trade, but Texas cooled on trading Kinsler. They offered other combinations of prospects (including Drew Meyer) but Dan O'Brien didn't like the offers I guess. According to my buddy, who worked for DanO briefly, DanO would have never signed Paul Wilson long term had he known that ownership was going to give him extra dough in December to add pitching. He thought that resigning Wilson was the only move he had budget for.

SteelSD
11-20-2005, 06:39 PM
My point being I doubt many if any would be able to stand up to the same critique of their career that DanO endures from this group.

That's not a "point", it's a red herring. And a really nasty one at that.

What anyone else on this board does for a living or how good they are at doing it has NOTHING to do with Dan O'Brien. You've been a constant apologist for his buffoonery and now you're trying to insinuate that folks here aren't qualified to discuss the job Dan O'Brien has done.

Well, no one but YOU is "qualified" to discuss Dan O'Brien it seems. Yet you can't point to anything positive the guy has actually done. Instead, you're entire line of support amounts to nothing but a truckload of excuses for what he's done wrong.

Excuses are not evidence of success.


Your perception of leadership is WAY OFF...leaders do not lead by simply ignoring the voices of those around them...Read some of the books put out by Maxwell, Covey or many others...there is a bigger picture to leadership...sometimes you "go your way"...sometimes you "go the way of the masses" so you can continue to strengthen your position so they will follow you when they are needed.

Actually, I'll trust gonelong's take on leadership well before I trust yours as he's the guy who actually understands the dynamics involved with doing dumb things just because they're allegedly popular.

Your perception of a leader is that he can be excused for doing dumb things that hurt his organization so long as those dumb things placate the masses. But that's a ludicrous path to follow because if you do enough dumb things, pretty soon the masses are going to be furious because you'll have run your organization into the ground in your effort to make folks happy.

That's not "leadership". It's organizational suicide.

Baseball fans want a winning organization. That's the brass ring- not Paul-freakin'-Wilson. A leader is able to determine what the real goal is and understands that superficial mob pacification is not a means to achieve that goal.


Are they closing 60% or more of their opportunities?

If you have a product that someone has told you they want and they have exactly what they need to pay for it, you'd better be closing 100% of those deals. If you can't, you're nothing but a low-level order taker.


I still think we are on the road to improvement with DanO...

If there were actually a "road to improvement" I wouldn't expect O'Brien to be driving on it because he's just spent two seasons repeatedly slamming his car into the rear interior of his garage.

Pretty tough to get yourself on a road if you don't know the difference between "drive" and "reverse".

M2
11-20-2005, 07:04 PM
I am curious to know what level of expertise you people have accomplished in your own career

I've achieved level of expertise enough that if I performed the way DanO has the past two years, I'd expect to be fired.

I certainly wouldn't accept his level of performance from an employee for very long ... and, yes, I'm management.


I'll say it again he signed Wilson to pacify the fans the same way the Pants did Haynes after his one good year here....BAD MOVE...but again, the fans and media were so far on his side on some levels it is beter to do that than to rock the boat...when you are a leader you have to pick your battles.

And I'll say it again, kowtowing to what you think public perception might be is the opposite of leadership. Repeating the glaring mistakes of your predecessor, and I may have worn out my keyboard typing the name "Jimmy Haynes" leading up to the Wilson signing, is plain amateurish. If DanO didn't have the fortitude to cause a minor ripple by allowing a not-so-good, on-the-brink-of-a-career-ending-injury pitcher walk, then he's not the person I'd want running my club.


This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn

Now wait a second. The team is all right, but Dunn's the only guy of value? Either the team is a disaster and Dunn's the only horse in town or the Reds have some talent on hand, making it possible to move players other than Dunn if the team so chooses.


which is fine in the fantasy league you guys play in

I'm flippin' tired of luddite "fantasy baseball" cracks. For the record, I've never played fantasy baseball in my entire life. Yet even if I had, so bloody what? What especially frosts my windows with that crack is it almost always comes from people who've spent their time on this board either suffering from foot-in-mouth syndrome or offering up very little in the way of quality and it's directed at the folks who have consistently made astute and accurate observations regarding the Reds and baseball in general.

How about this MartyFan? These "fantasy baseball" folks have consistently skewered where the team is headed and how the team's moves will pan out. You think you can do better? I sincerely doubt it. Prove me wrong.

M2
11-20-2005, 07:06 PM
:) From what I'm told, Dan O'Brien did everything he could after the deadline to revive the trade, but Texas cooled on trading Kinsler.

Then the Reds need to find a GM who can do more.

dougflynn23
11-20-2005, 07:23 PM
Then the Reds need to find a GM who can do more.

That is certainly a fair assessment.

Raisor
11-20-2005, 07:46 PM
I'm flippin' tired of luddite "fantasy baseball" cracks. For the record, I've never played fantasy baseball in my entire life. Yet even if I had, so bloody what? What especially frosts my windows with that crack is it almost always comes from people who've spent their time on this board either suffering from foot-in-mouth syndrome or offering up very little in the way of quality and it's directed at the folks who have consistently made astute and accurate observations regarding the Reds and baseball in general.

How about this MartyFan? These "fantasy baseball" folks have consistently skewered where the team is headed and how the team's moves will pan out. You think you can do better? I sincerely doubt it. Prove me wrong.


Can I get an "Amen" from the choir?

westofyou
11-20-2005, 09:43 PM
run a business...hire and fire people.Done it, sold it made a profit.

In your eyes that good enough to judge a baseball teams managment on an online site?

BTW prior to "Fantasy Ball" such judgement on players and management knew no bounds, go check out some of the yellow press on Candy Cummings when he played for the Reds 130 years ago... brutal just brutal.

Hardly a shock that people talk about ideas versus the ones made, and hardly a shock that they get attacked for it.

Ironic as hell though.

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 10:37 PM
M2 and Steel...Booo...Flippin Whoo!


If you have a product that someone has told you they want and they have exactly what they need to pay for it, you'd better be closing 100% of those deals. If you can't, you're nothing but a low-level order taker.

A home run every time, huh? Wow almost like Barry Bonds...doesn't he dope up? (allegedly)

Actually in sales, those would be called "Laydowns" and they only happen when someone is emotionally charged, not thinking for their best interests.


I'm flippin' tired of luddite "fantasy baseball" cracks. For the record, I've never played fantasy baseball in my entire life. Yet even if I had, so bloody what?

Umm...wow...I never thought of it that way...I guess you're right.....NOPE! By the way, extra points for using the word "luddite" in a sentence...well done! So what do I stand against, technological improvement or systems that I believe will undercut the value of a person? I actually don't think fantasy baseball does either.


How about this MartyFan? These "fantasy baseball" folks have consistently skewered where the team is headed and how the team's moves will pan out. You think you can do better? I sincerely doubt it. Prove me wrong.

Nope, I don't...I have a fulltime career where I don't have the time or energy to become an expert to debate every move made by an organization in a profession that I have limited information.

I just don't feel qualified to second guess what the actual players are doing.


Quote:
run a business...hire and fire people.

Done it, sold it made a profit.

Me too...a couple of times and if the i's and t's get put in their proper place I'll do it again within the next few months.

:beerme:

wheels
11-20-2005, 10:53 PM
Hey Wheels, since you seem to know *everything* can you tell me where my GBV Bee Thousand CD is?

Wellll...

Maybe if you woulda bought it on vinyl, you wouldn'ta lost it.:p:

wheels
11-20-2005, 10:54 PM
:) From what I'm told, Dan O'Brien did everything he could after the deadline to revive the trade, but Texas cooled on trading Kinsler. They offered other combinations of prospects (including Drew Meyer) but Dan O'Brien didn't like the offers I guess. According to my buddy, who worked for DanO briefly, DanO would have never signed Paul Wilson long term had he known that ownership was going to give him extra dough in December to add pitching. He thought that resigning Wilson was the only move he had budget for.

I just want to make it clear that I totally appreciate you having posted your inside dope.

I hope you don't think I was "killing the messenger" or anything.

LoganBuck
11-20-2005, 10:59 PM
I still want to know who you all think Graves should have been traded to, and for who?

The SABRE guys on this site wanted Jimenez back, while many of the non SABRE guys wanted him kicked to the curb. That turned out really well. Now I see a few of those same people talking about how dumb DanO is. Yet Jimenez was easily money spent more foolishly than any other move, last year.

M2
11-20-2005, 11:10 PM
I have a fulltime career where I don't have the time or energy to become an expert to debate every move made by an organization in a profession that I have limited information.

I just don't feel qualified to second guess what the actual players are doing.

Then how about zipping your yap? Because if you're not qualified to judge the actual moves and direction of the Reds, which you can see played out in front of you, then you sure as hell aren't qualified to comment on the ability or insight of the people on this board.

paintmered
11-20-2005, 11:14 PM
Then how about zipping your yap? Because if you're not qualified to judge the actual moves and direction of the Reds, which you can see played out in front of you, then you sure as hell aren't qualified to comment on the ability or insight of the people on this board.


Easy, killer.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion around here.

M2
11-20-2005, 11:26 PM
Easy, killer.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion around here.

I agree. What I'm a little beyond peeved about is the insistence that people aren't entitled to their opinion. You know, that all these fantasy leaguers who've never watched a baseball game or held down a position of responsibility ought to grin and bear DanO because they can't know any better.

I'm all for hearing a spirited defense of DanO that involves a presentation of what he's done right, but when someone launches the DanO's-good-because-you-people-suck defense, I take some exception. If there's one thing Redszone has taught me it's that there's a lot of bright people out there who know better than the Reds have for what's become years on end at this point.

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 11:27 PM
Then how about zipping your yap? Because if you're not qualified to judge the actual moves and direction of the Reds, which you can see played out in front of you, then you sure as hell aren't qualified to comment on the ability or insight of the people on this board.

The actual moves I am capable of judgeing...it's the moves that were not made, might have been made, should have been made, could have been made that are complete fiction and the ones that are most of the time pointed too as the path to freedom for this team.

SteelSD
11-20-2005, 11:31 PM
Actually in sales, those would be called "Laydowns" and they only happen when someone is emotionally charged, not thinking for their best interests.

Well, no. You're mistaking "laydowns" with "impulse purchases". They are not synonymous. Laydowns may be "impulse purchases", but they may also be purchases driven by the consumer's predetermined rational need to the product being offered. Your confusion stems from an underlying erroneous supposition that "want" equals "need".

You've already made a number of missteps in this thread. Don't make another one by thinking of me as anything other than expert level in the practical application of sales theory, sales management, contract negotiation, and advanced sales training at an organizational level. Even if that topic belonged on a baseball board (it doesn't), you'd do well to avoid it altogether because the results would not be to your liking.

That's the main problem with your entire premise- which virtually requires others to submit a pseudo-resume to you in order to discuss a General Manager's performance.

The irony is that people you assume are unqualified to do discuss our GM are the same people that have, as M2 noted, skewered every move he's made while you've been doing nothing but trying to excuse away the reasons for his failures. In short, the very people you're attempting to indicate as unqualified are the same people who've been consistently right while you've been consistently wrong.

Knowing that, why would anyone else have to possibly "prove themselves" to YOU???

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 11:35 PM
One other thing....M2


Quote:
Originally Posted by MartyFan
This team is not in that bad of shape...we need to part with something to get something...the only "something" we have is Dunn

Now wait a second. The team is all right, but Dunn's the only guy of value? Either the team is a disaster and Dunn's the only horse in town or the Reds have some talent on hand, making it possible to move players other than Dunn if the team so chooses.

Nope...because the team as a group could still produce enough runs to win if Dunn was moved...again, I'll say this is just from casual observation...Does anybody think there is another player who could be moved by themseleves to bring back a quality starter?

wheels
11-20-2005, 11:38 PM
One other thing....M2



Nope...because the team as a group could still produce enough runs to win if Dunn was moved...again, I'll say this is just from casual observation...Does anybody think there is another player who could be moved by themseleves to bring back a quality starter?

Why do you care?

It's all just fiction for our fantasy teams, right?

SteelSD
11-20-2005, 11:39 PM
I still want to know who you all think Graves should have been traded to, and for who?

To anyone for anything of value. Comparable pitchers have changed hands before


The SABRE guys on this site wanted Jimenez back, while many of the non SABRE guys wanted him kicked to the curb. That turned out really well. Now I see a few of those same people talking about how dumb DanO is. Yet Jimenez was easily money spent more foolishly than any other move, last year.

I wanted Jimenez back. I hold, to this day, that the money was well-spent. Jimenez had just come off his best full season and was entering his age-prime years meaning that the Reds had a good chance of seeing the guy's peak seasons shortly.

That didn't work out because of clubhouse issues. But then, Miley apparently couldn't manage a clubhouse and allowed his sheep to herd him into telling O'Brien to DFA Jimenez.

Your dog won't hunt.

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 11:44 PM
Well, no. You're mistaking "laydowns" with "impulse purchases". They are not synonymous. Laydowns may be "impulse purchases", but they may also be purchases driven by the consumer's predetermined rational need to the product being offered. Your confusion stems from an underlying erroneous supposition that "want" equals "need".

You've already made a number of missteps in this thread. Don't make another one by thinking of me as anything other than expert level in the practical application of sales theory, sales management, contract negotiation, and advanced sales training at an organizational level. Even if that topic belonged on a baseball board (it doesn't), you'd do well to avoid it altogether because the results would not be to your liking.

That's the main problem with your entire premise- which virtually requires others to submit a pseudo-resume to you in order to discuss a General Manager's performance.

The irony is that people you assume are unqualified to do discuss our GM are the same people that have, as M2 noted, skewered every move he's made while you've been doing nothing but trying to excuse away the reasons for his failures. In short, the very people you're attempting to indicate as unqualified are the same people who've been consistently right while you've been consistently wrong.

Knowing that, why would anyone else have to possibly "prove themselves" to YOU???

Actually...no, I fully understand what a "laydown" is and what "impulse" is...

IMPULSE...see it. want it. buy it.

LAYDOWN...uninformed. persuaded by controled information. buys it.

Sure, that is a simple way to say it but...obviously I am a simple guy.

M2
11-20-2005, 11:47 PM
Nope...because the team as a group could still produce enough runs to win if Dunn was moved...again, I'll say this is just from casual observation...Does anybody think there is another player who could be moved by themseleves to bring back a quality starter?

Jose Guillen got the team Aaron Harang, so yes, I absolutely think that if a GM with an eye for talent were at the helm, the Reds could pluck numerous quality arms for players other than Dunn.

MartyFan
11-20-2005, 11:47 PM
Why do you care?

It's all just fiction for our fantasy teams, right?

You're right...no, no, you're not...It's not that I don't care...it's that I can't care...thanks

M2
11-20-2005, 11:50 PM
The actual moves I am capable of judgeing...it's the moves that were not made, might have been made, should have been made, could have been made that are complete fiction and the ones that are most of the time pointed too as the path to freedom for this team.

Well, seeing that the moves that have been made clearly have NOT pointed the team on the road to deliverance then by definition a different set of moves would have been required to do the job.

M2
11-20-2005, 11:56 PM
You're right...no, no, you're not...It's not that I don't care...it's that I can't care...thanks

And yet here you are posting about it again and again.

SteelSD
11-21-2005, 12:18 AM
IMPULSE...see it. want it. buy it.

Yes.


LAYDOWN...uninformed. persuaded by controled information. buys it.

No. My wife and I did a great deal of independent research before purchasing our last car, walked into the showroom, let the salesperson tell us nothing we didn't already know about a new automobile we already knew we were going to purchase, and we drove away with it.

The salesperson might as well have been a checkout clerk. And we were very informed, required no education, value build, or need creation, and we were the technical definition of a "laydown" sale. But I didn't tell the salesperson that. He was a nice guy so I left him with the illusion that his presence actually added value to the transaction.

A "laydown" does not require either the creation of need or consumer education. In fact, a sale created by the use of persuasive technique is not, by definition, a "laydown".

How does all this apply to baseball? Well, it appears that O'Brien has the skill set of a checkout clerk but needs the skill set possessed by successful professional salespeople instead. O'Brien needs to make things happen instead of expecting us to excuse away that which he allows to happen to him. It almost makes me physically ill that Dan O'Brien could not move a commodity another team wanted after said team agreed on the price they would pay. It's inexcusable that a deal could not get done in that scenario and really should be the final indictment of the man's skill level. Considering his position requires high level negotiation and persuasion skill sets, there isn't an excuse in the world that will insulate him.

So far, all we've been able to figure out is that Dan O'Brien lacks the ability to negotiate a deal, can't persuade a team that wants something he has to take it, in addition to lacking the ability to identify projectible impact talent and properly identify and evaluate risk.

And that's a guy you're defending why?

MWM
11-21-2005, 12:41 AM
We're talking about Danny Graves in 2004, for those who keep saying no one wanted him. He was in the All-Star game and led the world in saves. If you aren't capable of trading an All-Star closer leading the league in saves (yes, I'm aware of the blown saves), then you have no business in the baseball business to begin with, let alone as a General Manager.

gonelong
11-21-2005, 02:25 AM
GL:
My point being I doubt many if any would be able to stand up to the same critique of their career that DanO endures from this group.

If my performance was at O'Brien's level I'd resign out of sheer embarassment.



Your perception of leadership is WAY OFF...leaders do not lead by simply ignoring the voices of those around them...Read some of the books put out by Maxwell, Covey or many others...there is a bigger picture to leadership...sometimes you "go your way"...sometimes you "go the way of the masses" so you can continue to strengthen your position so they will follow you when they are needed.

Well, your certainly entitled to your opinion, but given your track record I'll take it for what its worth.

While I could agree, in theory, that placating the masses will allow a person time to work a plan to gain additional footing, putting the Dano/Wilson play into that light is ridiculous IMO. Dano had no need to make that move for any reason.


I still think we are on the road to improvement with DanO...especially over what we have had to work with in the organization...this was not an overnight task he took on and for anyone to think this team was going to make a run at the playoffs last year and maybe next year is just out of their mind...the way this organization will thrive is to go OLD SCHOOL...develop their own talent and not be infatuated by FA's.

We are not on the road to improvement at this point. That will prove itself out quite plainly over time.

The Reds are as OLD SCHOOL as the come, and if starting pitching was film, they still couldn't it developed at a Moto Photo.

GL

REDREAD
11-21-2005, 10:51 AM
During the entire month of July, 2004, Dan O'Brien and John Hart spoke almost daily about a trade that would send Paul Wilson to Texas. On July 26th, a tentative trade was made that would send Paul Wilson and P Todd Jones to Texas in exchange for SS Ian Kinsler and P Erik Thompson. .

I guess my question is: Why didn't DanO try to find some kind of substitute for Todd Jones after Larry Walker refused the trade?
That's one of my biggest criticisms with DanO, he can not think on his feet.
It probably took him a month to set up that trade you mentioned, and then DanO was totally unable to react to a change of events.

But thanks for posting the insider info, that was an interesting read.

REDREAD
11-21-2005, 11:08 AM
He thought that resigning Wilson was the only move he had budget for.

Here's something I always wondered about. Is it easier to find "budget" to sign popular veterans like Wilson (and even Haynes, Casey, and Graves) than it is to sign a new incoming player.

It appears (obviously no proof) that Allen approves those moves a lot easier as opposed to letting the vet walk and giving the GM the equivalent money to bring in a new guy from another team.

wheels
11-21-2005, 11:17 AM
Here's something I always wondered about. Is it easier to find "budget" to sign popular veterans like Wilson (and even Haynes, Casey, and Graves) than it is to sign a new incoming player.

It appears (obviously no proof) that Allen approves those moves a lot easier as opposed to letting the vet walk and giving the GM the equivalent money to bring in a new guy from another team.

I'd bet you anything that a simple onceover and an MRI from another club would have made it not only the easiest of signingsfor the Reds, but it would have been impossible for Paul to play somewhere else. All they'd have to do is take one look at that shoulder.

And DanO paid too much for it.

And Allen approved it.

The drug bus is being piloted by stoned, retarded monkees.

MartyFan
11-21-2005, 02:18 PM
Okay..her it is.

A couple of people have let me know that while I am entitled to my opinion I could have presented my thoughts in a more friendly way.

For that I am sorry...the rest of it still stands.

Here is what I was trying to accomplish with my posts.

I really doubt that many if any of you, or us would be able to live up to the scrutiny that DanO is under on this board in our chosen career...it is MHO that DanO is damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

Also, I have supported DanO from day 1...eventhough I wanted Krivsky...I'd still lve to have Krivsky....I was shocked and disapointed when Milton and Ortiz were not moved at the deadline...both could go to teams with larger parks and trhive...Ortiz was a huge gamble becuse he has always been lights out or lit up...this year...he was lit up.

I never liked the signing of Paul Wilson then again I didn't like the contract with Casey, Graves or Larkin either.

All of that aside, I am sorry for "being mean"...but I also think some of you are pretty ruthless too.

M2
11-21-2005, 02:40 PM
Okay..her it is.

A couple of people have let me know that while I am entitled to my opinion I could have presented my thoughts in a more friendly way.

For that I am sorry...the rest of it still stands.

Here is what I was trying to accomplish with my posts.

I really doubt that many if any of you, or us would be able to live up to the scrutiny that DanO is under on this board in our chosen career...it is MHO that DanO is damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

Also, I have supported DanO from day 1...eventhough I wanted Krivsky...I'd still lve to have Krivsky....I was shocked and disapointed when Milton and Ortiz were not moved at the deadline...both could go to teams with larger parks and trhive...Ortiz was a huge gamble becuse he has always been lights out or lit up...this year...he was lit up.

I never liked the signing of Paul Wilson then again I didn't like the contract with Casey, Graves or Larkin either.

All of that aside, I am sorry for "being mean"...but I also think some of you are pretty ruthless too.

If you put it that way without the "fantasy baseball" snark and the intimation that the people on this board must not have accomplished much in the professional world (something that, in my years of experience here, couldn't be more wrong), then you'd have gotten a far less ruthless response from me.

I still don't agree with your premise. My profession gets constant scrutiny, both internal and external. I'm aware of that and have no beef with it, but you can be certain that I know that means I don't get to suffer any grandiose failures as a result. One Eric Milton and I'm gone. I'm not holding DanO to any standard that I wouldn't apply to myself.

He's got a job with high public visibility. Scrutiny comes with that. If he didn't want the spotlight then he should have stayed in middle management. We get to see what he does and, even more to the point, the results of what he does. His results stink and far too many people could have told you that would be the case before the games played themselves out. I have little sympathy for a guy making such obvious mistakes.

westofyou
11-21-2005, 02:47 PM
I have little sympathy for a guy making such obvious mistakesEspecially since Dan O is a legacy player in the game, it doesn't diminish his work career, but it helps to have a father who was once one of twenty four. IMO that sets the bar a bit higher.

Thing is both father and son cut their throats several times on pitching and worked with odd ownership.

However Daddy scored Feguson Jenkins for Bill Madlock, Dan O has to pull something like that just to get up to Daddy's level.

wheels
11-21-2005, 02:50 PM
It's entertainment.

People have every right to critique it.

Don't get on stage if you don't expect someone to comment on it.

Roy Tucker
11-21-2005, 02:54 PM
It's entertainment.

People have every right to critique it.

Don't get on stage if you don't expect someone to comment on it.
My sentiments exactly.

Baseball is an entertainment business. Some people are entertained by the product on the field, others are entertained by what goes on behind the scenes. Being a MLB GM is a highly visible position and the number second-guessers is enormous.

Having said that, I haven't heard DanO complain at all about the press or the public criticisms.

wheels
11-21-2005, 02:58 PM
My sentiments exactly.

Baseball is an entertainment business. Some people are entertained by the product on the field, others are entertained by what goes on behind the scenes. Being a MLB GM is a highly visible position and the number second-guessers is enormous.

Having said that, I haven't heard DanO complain at all about the press or the public criticisms.

To his credit, he hasn't.

Then again, I'm not sure how many media members in Cincinnati actually openly question his moves.

Heck, they're too busy wondering wether or not EE is the answer at third, with one ear attached to a radio speaker every wednesday wondering what Marty thinks about it.

As far as national media is concerned, I wonder if DanO pays any attention to that at all.

Ravenlord
11-21-2005, 03:49 PM
I wanted Jimenez back. I hold, to this day, that the money was well-spent. Jimenez had just come off his best full season and was entering his age-prime years meaning that the Reds had a good chance of seeing the guy's peak seasons shortly.

That didn't work out because of clubhouse issues. But then, Miley apparently couldn't manage a clubhouse and allowed his sheep to herd him into telling O'Brien to DFA Jimenez.

Your dog won't hunt.
FWIW, Jimenez had just hit 270/357/405 in May when he got DFA'd.

SteelSD
11-21-2005, 04:00 PM
I really doubt that many if any of you, or us would be able to live up to the scrutiny that DanO is under on this board in our chosen career...it is MHO that DanO is damned if he does damned if he doesn't.

For that last opinion to be accurate, Dan O'Brien would need to be bashed mercilessly for bringing in a real positive impact player to the Reds.

The problem with Dan O'Brien is that he DOESN'T "do". Anything remotely resembling a success at the MLB level has been at the fringe level. When he's attempted to bring in a true positive impact guy, he's just plain stunk at it. You're simply not going to win anything by wasting money on the likes of Ortiz, Milton, Lidle, Randa, etc. etc. in the hopes that you'll significantly impact your club by swapping them at the trade deadline.


Also, I have supported DanO from day 1...eventhough I wanted Krivsky...I'd still lve to have Krivsky....I was shocked and disapointed when Milton and Ortiz were not moved at the deadline...both could go to teams with larger parks and trhive...Ortiz was a huge gamble becuse he has always been lights out or lit up...this year...he was lit up.

Ok, first, Ortiz has stunk as a starter for quite a while. He's never been "lights out". Ever. Secondly, Eric Milton put up a .920 OPS Against at the GAB in 2005. On the road, he managed a .864 OPSA. He was awful anywhere. It's not surprising that teams wouldn't want an awful pitcher still owed over 18M bucks at the trade deadline.

You're acting as if the only thing wrong with those guys is Great American Ballpark. But, in fact, what's wrong with those guys is that they're bad pitchers. Dan O'Brien signed bad pitchers. You need to stop thinking of them as good pitchers gone wrong because they're not. Spending millions of dollars to acquire bad pitchers isn't a sign of leadership or good business sense.

One of your primary excuses for the Milton signing has been that it would be a demonstration to other free agents that the Reds would spend money, and thus, Cincinnati would be a more attractive destination. The problem is such a demonstration only helps if you're willing to spend a lot more money. That additional money wasn't flying out of the Reds coffers nor could it be reasonably projected to be available after 2006.

Secondly, dealing every MLB Free Agent you've acquired doesn't do much to inspire top-caliber MLB talent to jump on board, does it? Oh sure, it would have been great to see Milton moved out at the trade deadline in 2005, but that would have worked against the very reason you were using as an excuse for O'Brien bringing him in (i.e. to make Cinci a more attractive destination).

wheels
11-21-2005, 04:48 PM
FWIW, Jimenez had just hit 270/357/405 in May when he got DFA'd.

Yep, it wasn't based solely on his offensive production, but attitude.

And that was something hadn't surfaced before 2005 in Cincinnati, and I was all for keeping him around.

He was a decent second baseman with great plate discipline and good on base skills.

Of course I was all for it.

RFS62
11-21-2005, 04:53 PM
It's entertainment.

People have every right to critique it.

Don't get on stage if you don't expect someone to comment on it.


Yeah, I agree with you and Roy.

It's the entertainment industry, and RedsZone is Variety.

M2
11-21-2005, 04:59 PM
Yeah, I agree with you and Roy.

It's the entertainment industry, and RedsZone is Variety.

That sums it up as well as I've ever heard it said.

Ravenlord
11-21-2005, 05:08 PM
Ortiz
Year ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP P/IP BABIP
1999 6.52 48.1 1.76 4.66 8.19 9.31 1.30 1.55 17.11 307
2000 5.09 111.1 1.33 4.45 5.90 7.76 1.46 1.36 15.55 241
2001 4.36 208.2 1.65 3.28 5.82 9.62 1.08 1.43 15.23 297
2002 3.77 217.1 2.38 2.82 6.71 7.79 1.66 1.18 15.06 238
2003 5.20 180 1.49 3.15 4.70 10.45 1.40 1.51 16.81 293
2004 4.43 128 1.95 2.67 5.77 9.77 1.27 1.38 15.30 302
2005 5.36 171.1 1.85 2.68 5.04 10.82 1.79 1.50 15.39 303
Total 4.72 1065 1.77 3.18 5.80 9.39 1.44 1.40 15.61 280


Milton
Year ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP P/IP BABIP
1998 5.64 172.1 1.53 3.66 5.59 10.18 1.31 1.54 --- 299
1999 4.49 206.1 2.51 2.75 7.11 8.29 1.22 1.23 16.29 270
2000 4.86 200 3.64 1.98 7.20 9.23 1.58 1.25 16.18 282
2001 4.32 220.2 2.57 2.49 6.40 9.05 1.43 1.28 16.03 273
2002 4.84 171 4.03 1.58 6.37 9.11 1.26 1.19 15.86 282
2003 2.65 17 7.00 0.53 3.71 7.94 1.06 0.94 13.94 232
2004 4.75 201 1.99 3.36 7.21 8.78 1.93 1.35 17.10 263
2005 6.47 186.1 2.28 2.51 5.94 11.45 1.93 1.55 16.98 311
Total 4.99 1374.2 2.46 2.59 6.54 9.38 1.52 1.33 --- 282
so when was Ortiz good? he's been a lucky a couple times, but as far as being good, he's only done that in the pen.

as for Milton, bad knees+already being up in the zone=a lot of balls in play.

did anyone note at the begining of the year that Ortiz and Milton came from teams that are extremely defensivly minded (or for the case in 04 for Milton; Burrell, Byrd/Michaels, Abreu, a very good defensive OF).

wheels
11-21-2005, 05:26 PM
Look at that BABIP in '02.

He was the poster boy for luck.