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NewEraReds
12-08-2005, 12:28 PM
on other board. we will be challenging for all time futility in strikeouts and fielding % this year:angry:

vaticanplum
12-08-2005, 12:34 PM
Um, he steals a lot of bases?

(I'm testing a new "find the bright side" approach. so may have to find a new team to support.)

Benihana
12-08-2005, 12:36 PM
maybe if we're lucky the ptbnl will be homer bailey??:rolleyes:

swityak11
12-08-2005, 12:37 PM
Oh gross. Womack was one of the worst position players in baseball last year.

Even if we gave up nothing, we were just robbed.

Reds4Life
12-08-2005, 12:39 PM
It's official, oh goodie. :barf:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2252378


Associated Press


DALLAS -- The New York Yankees traded Tony Womack to the Cincinnati Reds on Thursday, getting rid of the second baseman-turned-outfielder just one season after signing him.

The trade was to be announced later Thursday, a high-ranking baseball official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the teams had not publicly confirmed the swap. It was not immediately known what the Yankees were getting in return.

Womack hit .307 to help St. Louis win the NL pennant in 2004, then became a free agent and signed a $4 million, two-year contract with the Yankees.

He was their starting second baseman for the first month of the season, but lost his job when the Yankees brought up rookie Robinson Cano. Womack wound up playing just 24 games in second and was shifted to the outfield, where he appeared 40 times in left, 22 in center and four in right.

Womack wound up batting just .249 with 15 RBI and 27 steals. He didn't get an at-bat during New York's five-game loss to the Los Angeles Angels in the first round of the playoffs.

NewEraReds
12-08-2005, 12:45 PM
Oh gross. Womack was one of the worst position players in baseball last year.

Even if we gave up nothing, we were just robbed.
exactly. some will say how can you complain, we gave up nothing. but nothing is more than you should pay for this guy. we will lose more games for having him here than if he wasnt. and they talk NON STOP about getting pitching. yet they go and spend money that could be spent on pitching, on tony womak.

Chip R
12-08-2005, 12:46 PM
The only way this is a good deal is if it's a bluff to get Aurilia to reject arbitration since Womack would be his replacement. Then, after Aurilia rejects it, the Reds release Womack. But the Reds are too dumb to do that.

Reds Nd2
12-08-2005, 12:46 PM
The trade as just mentioned on MLB Radio says it's for TWO players to be announced.

shredda2000
12-08-2005, 12:46 PM
Just announced on MLB.com...Womack for 2 minor leaguers (not named)

Patrick Bateman
12-08-2005, 12:51 PM
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?Why? Why? Why?Why? Why? Why?Why? Why? Why?Why? Why? Why?

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 12:53 PM
Just announced on MLB.com...Womack for 2 minor leaguers (not named)

Did they say 2 MINOR LEAGUERS? or 2 Players to be named later? Big difference. I'm praying my guts out that one of the players going to the Yanks is Eric Milton. That's the only thing Dan O could do to keep me from urinating on the field on Opening Day.

IowaRed
12-08-2005, 12:53 PM
:laugh: Womack, that's a good one...you got me, very funny

Joseph
12-08-2005, 12:56 PM
Unless its Andersen Machado and Jason Romano this is stupid.

shredda2000
12-08-2005, 12:56 PM
Did they say 2 MINOR LEAGUERS? or 2 Players to be named later? Big difference. I'm praying my guts out that one of the players going to the Yanks is Eric Milton. That's the only thing Dan O could do to keep me from urinating on the field on Opening Day.

I heard two minor leaguers...anyone else hear anything different?

Patrick Bateman
12-08-2005, 12:57 PM
I try my hardest to defend DOB. But c'mon give me something to work with here. If we are paying the full amount we are wasting the Casey trade.

Casey and 2 minor leaguers for Dave Williams, Tony Womack and 3M (Maybe Aurilia or someone not that good). Horrible.

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 12:58 PM
I heard two minor leaguers...anyone else hear anything different?

God this is incredible. DanO, you are so fired it's pathetic. You're also creating a situation that will make a new GM work their butt off just to get back to ground zero.

jesusfan
12-08-2005, 12:59 PM
He isnt that bad guys... he was a catalyst for St. Louis during the pennant run in 04... Hopefully he'll return to that form... Plus it gives us insurance since he can play both infield/outfield, like Freel.

Reds4Life
12-08-2005, 01:01 PM
CBS Sportsline is reporting that Kevin Howard is being send to the Yanks in the deal.

Patrick Bateman
12-08-2005, 01:02 PM
He isnt that bad guys... he was a catalyst for St. Louis during the pennant run in 04... Hopefully he'll return to that form... Plus it gives us insurance since he can play both infield/outfield, like Freel.

He was still below average offensively that year. Womack is pathetic. He can't hit and isn't a particularly great fielder. He wouldn't be a bad pinch run guy.

I prey thta the Yanks are covering his salary and are getting 2 fringe prospects that have no chance of making it.

Patrick Bateman
12-08-2005, 01:02 PM
CBS Sportsline is reporting that Kevin Howard is being send to the Yanks in the deal.

Dumb. I bet Howard would be a better bet in the majors RIGHT NOW over Womack.

Puffy
12-08-2005, 01:03 PM
I try my hardest to defend DOB. But c'mon give me something to work with here. If we are paying the full amount we are wasting the Casey trade.

Casey and 2 minor leaguers for Dave Williams, Tony Womack and 3M (Maybe Aurilia or someone not that good). Horrible.

Welcome to the dark side. We have no doughnuts though. BadFundamentals keeps them all over on the "Adma Dunn Strikes Out Too Much" side.

Patrick Bateman
12-08-2005, 01:04 PM
Welcome to the dark side. We have no doughnuts though. BadFundamentals hoards them.

Well, DOB ate all the doughnuts on my side anyways. No big loss there.

NewEraReds
12-08-2005, 01:06 PM
Did they say 2 MINOR LEAGUERS? or 2 Players to be named later? Big difference. I'm praying my guts out that one of the players going to the Yanks is Eric Milton. That's the only thing Dan O could do to keep me from urinating on the field on Opening Day.
if it was milton or any other 40 manner, why wouldnt it not just be announced

TeamSelig
12-08-2005, 01:08 PM
I
hate
Dan
O'Brien

The Casey deal is one thing. I can deal with that. It wasn't a HORRIBLE trade. We saved alot of money, and got a pitcher better than some of the pitchers we pitched last year. More importantly, we fixed the OF problem.

But then, he offers arbitration to Rich Aurilia. Ugh.

Now, he's trading for Tony freaking Womack. TONY WOMACK. Someone kill me.

NewEraReds
12-08-2005, 01:08 PM
Dumb. I bet Howard would be a better bet in the majors RIGHT NOW over Womack.
dan o is the dumbest man alive. and if the new owners(who i have backed) have anything to do with this, MLB DO NOT APPROVE SALE

swityak11
12-08-2005, 01:10 PM
Womack's only possible use is as a pinch runner and pinch runners shouldn't be paid $2 million per. If we give him and his monster .556 OPS / 47 OPS+ any at bats it would be too many.

The Yanks must have dirt on OBrien.

jesusfan
12-08-2005, 01:10 PM
For Kevin Howard.. OMG... I hope he goes off and becomes a hall of famer...~!

Mario-Rijo
12-08-2005, 01:12 PM
Dumb. I bet Howard would be a better bet in the majors RIGHT NOW over Womack.

Yeah I would have at least given it a chance, however we all thought Chris Booker was better than he was also. Or Brandon Larson AKA Mr. 4A. I see a platoon situation w/ Freel & Womack at 2B it could be worse. They are both simply a stop gap measure at this point until Bergolla can figure how to use a wooden stick. However I would (A) hope that Aurilia doesn't accept arbitration so we can get a draft pick, and (B) hope that the NYY's at least are going to pay some or all of Womacks contract! Another possible note is if we can find a legit 2B between now & the beginning of the season we could deal him or let him go.

NewEraReds
12-08-2005, 01:15 PM
Yeah I would have at least given it a chance, however we all thought Chris Booker was better than he was also. Or Brandon Larson AKA Mr. 4A. I see a platoon situation w/ Freel & Womack at 2B it could be worse. They are both simply a stop gap measure at this point until Bergolla can figure how to use a wooden stick. However I would (A) hope that Aurilia doesn't accept arbitration so we can get a draft pick, and (B) hope that the NYY's at least are going to pay some or all of Womacks contract! Another possible note is if we can find a legit 2B between now & the beginning of the season we could deal him or let him go.
HOW COULD IT BE WORSE? bergolla is better than womak. howard may never turn into anything, but you have to look at it first. he was a good hitter, a switch hitter. and we gave him up for junk. we could have let him play, hit 000 and still trade him for womak. womak is that bad and the yankees wanted to get rid of him that bad

harangatang
12-08-2005, 01:17 PM
Well it seems to me the Castinelli is starting to bring in his own players with Womack coming to Cincinnati. That's the only that can even make a bit of sense unless we all can't think of a better excuse and blame O'Brien.

NC Reds
12-08-2005, 01:18 PM
DanO confirmed today that he is an incompetent boob. Why spend money on Tony Womack?

swityak11
12-08-2005, 01:20 PM
Quote from a Yankee board... ha.

These minor leaguers the Yanks are getting for Womack, are they still, you know, alive? Just asking. I mean, it's not a deal breaker if they aren't...

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 01:21 PM
Well it seems to me the Castinelli is starting to bring in his own players with Womack coming to Cincinnati. That's the only that can even make a bit of sense unless we all can't think of a better excuse and blame O'Brien.

This is a Dan O'Brien trade.

The new owner told him that he wanted to win....NOW, so no prospects. Trade for veteran or experienced major league players. This is what Dan O'Brien has given us under those demands. He needs months to work out deals like these, not hours. He's a clueless moron who has no business carrying around a business card that says GM.

harangatang
12-08-2005, 01:30 PM
This is a Dan O'Brien trade.

The new owner told him that he wanted to win....NOW, so no prospects. Trade for veteran or experienced major league players. This is what Dan O'Brien has given us under those demands. He needs months to work out deals like these, not hours. He's a clueless moron who has no business carrying around a business card that says GM.

I not going to create a huge argument but doesn't it make sense that first O'Brien confirmed talks with Matt Morris's agent about Matt Morris and now trading for Womack that were seeing part of the Cardinals' organization coming to Cincinnati. I don't care if you think O'Brien is incompetent for the job because it seems to me that he's not making this deal. So argue around the facts to show superiority over me but I guess your hatred makes you unable to see what is really happening.

pedro
12-08-2005, 01:30 PM
Quote from a Yankee board... ha.

thank you for making me laugh. I needed that.

OSURedLeg
12-08-2005, 01:33 PM
I just read a post on John Sickels' website that says the 2nd ptba is Rafael Gonzalez. I will be so p*ssed if that is true.

registerthis
12-08-2005, 01:37 PM
thank you for making me laugh. I needed that.

Apparently, getting a ballplayer that showed any signs of life wasn't a dealbreaker for DanO either.

registerthis
12-08-2005, 01:38 PM
I just read a post on John Sickels' website that says the 2nd ptba is Rafael Gonzalez. I will be so p*ssed if that is true.

it's Ben Himes.

timmario66
12-08-2005, 01:39 PM
it's Ben Himes. and $900,000 coming to the Reds per the Segman on 700.

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 01:40 PM
I not going to create a huge argument but doesn't it make sense that first O'Brien confirmed talks with Matt Morris's agent about Matt Morris and now trading for Womack that were seeing part of the Cardinals' organization coming to Cincinnati. I don't care if you think O'Brien is incompetent for the job because it seems to me that he's not making this deal. So argue around the facts to show superiority over me but I guess your hatred makes you unable to see what is really happening.

What?

All I'm saying is that the new owner, Castellini, told O'Brien to make some trades to improve the Reds NOW. He didn't want prospects that will develop in 5-7 years, he wanted players that will make an immediate impact. Since Dan O'Brien is fully incapable of this in general, and even worse under time constraints, you get a trade like this.

I can't see Castellini directly telling O'Brien to trade Kevin Howard and Ben Himes for Tony Womack, or even telling O'Brien to get Tony Womack for whoever for that matter.

harangatang
12-08-2005, 01:45 PM
I can't see Castellini directly telling O'Brien to trade Kevin Howard and Ben Himes for Tony Womack, or even telling O'Brien to get Tony Womack for whoever for that matter.

I can see Castellini saying to go get Tony Womack but that's just me. I respect your opinion and our differences.

pedro
12-08-2005, 01:47 PM
I can see Castellini saying to go get Tony Womack but that's just me. I respect your opinion and our differences.

Lets hope that's not true.

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 01:50 PM
Lets hope that's not true.

harangatang: Obviously, I can't say 100% who is behind this move.

I'm trying to pin this all on O'Brien so that when he is fired in the near future I can say "Wheeew. That's over. Time to move on. Only way to go is up..." and have some hope. Plus, its something I can see O'Brien doing, under a time constraint, and orders to improve the team with major league players and not prospects.

If Castellini is behind all of this, we're screwed, for a very, very long time.

marcshoe
12-08-2005, 01:51 PM
And if it is true, let's hope that after the change-of-hands the new ownership will hire someone who knows what he's doing to make such decisions.

Reds Nd2
12-08-2005, 01:56 PM
"Wheeew. That's over. Time to move on. Only way to go is up..." and have some hope.

Unfortunantly, it's beginning to look like the Reds are further from up than they were, oh like 4 hours ago.

Walkerforpres
12-08-2005, 02:02 PM
Coming up : St. Louis trades Albert Pujols and $50 million to the Reds for Eric Milton, and a gift-wrapped mystery surprise from DanO's toilet this morning.

It *has* to happen. The laws of logic decree it, as a reversal of the absolute idiocy of this move. I might be possibly able to comprehend this deal if it had any sort of sense whatsoever pertaining to this baseball team. We already have Freel, Bergolla, Olmedo, and possibly Aurilia to do the 'job' that Womack does as a utilty player.

To even fathom that DanO thinks of Womack as a starter makes my head hurt. Really badly. Help me.

vaticanplum
12-08-2005, 02:19 PM
I am a huge Yankees fan (I needed some way to stop from committing suicide-by-baseball), and belong to a Yankees fan community, where the people there are mostly idiots, grossly overattached to anyone who dons "the pinstripes", no matter how poorly or how briefly they wear them (note: this is not true of most Yankees fans, who are secretly harder on their team than non-Yankees fans realize). I seriously expected them to be crying over the loss of their beloved Tony Mustache.

It is joyous mayhem over there. They can't even believe someone was willing to pick him up. "Someone was willing to give more than a sack of used baseballs for him?!" "$900,000, I don't care, at least we're rid of him."

Kevin Howard.

Mind-boggling.

Milezinni
12-08-2005, 02:21 PM
I don't think it's a bad deal....

Womacks last season in the NL, and NL Central for that matter, he batted over .300, played excellent situational ball, and swiped enough bags to but the running game into effect.

In fact, he stole 20+ bases last season, in the AL, and in New York (and admittedly difficult market to struggle in anyway) and that would put him second on the Reds roster.

Howard will probably never see playing time anyway, and I am not familiar with Himes.

If anything, the optimist in me says that this is a sign that they are going in a NL running style of offense over the pitiful AL 3-run homer style they have been spinning their wheels with the last 8-9 seasons.....

Although not a great move, or the one I wanted to see, with the Yankees picking up alot of his salary this strengthens the bench and the Reds don't lose much....

Strikes Out Looking
12-08-2005, 02:23 PM
Ok, so the Reds are paying Womack 1.1 million and giving up two 24 year olds who haven't made it to AAA. I don't think its a terrible deal on its face.

What is bad is that the Reds already have a number of bodies that can play second adequately and if Aurillia takes the arbitration offer, it'll increase the log jam.

So far I give DanO a D+/C- for the offseason.

ED44
12-08-2005, 02:26 PM
I don't think it's a bad deal....

Womacks last season in the NL, and NL Central for that matter, he batted over .300, played excellent situational ball, and swiped enough bags to but the running game into effect.

In fact, he stole 20+ bases last season, in the AL, and in New York (and admittedly difficult market to struggle in anyway) and that would put him second on the Reds roster.

Howard will probably never see playing time anyway, and I am not familiar with Himes.

If anything, the optimist in me says that this is a sign that they are going in a NL running style of offense over the pitiful AL 3-run homer style they have been spinning their wheels with the last 8-9 seasons.....

Although not a great move, or the one I wanted to see, with the Yankees picking up alot of his salary this strengthens the bench and the Reds don't lose much....

The optimist in me says the same thing. Granted, I wish the speed in return was Gathwright (which I have pleaded for on many instances), but Womack and Freel, at least, give us some speed. Maybe they are considering Freel in CF with Womack at 2B to put speed at #'s 1 & 2 in the order?

If we have to pay his entire salary, then I will be highly frustrated, but if (and I suspect they will) the Yanks take the majority of his salary, then we have a decent IF with some wheels, at the least, on our bench.

remdog
12-08-2005, 02:27 PM
I not going to create a huge argument but doesn't it make sense that first O'Brien confirmed talks with Matt Morris's agent about Matt Morris and now trading for Womack that were seeing part of the Cardinals' organization coming to Cincinnati. I don't care if you think O'Brien is incompetent for the job because it seems to me that he's not making this deal. So argue around the facts to show superiority over me but I guess your hatred makes you unable to see what is really happening.

At least someone is trying to think about the rational behind the deal instead of trying to come up with the funniest quote. :clap:

Rem

BRM
12-08-2005, 02:30 PM
As Steel pointed out on the other board, Woe-mack's speed is pretty meaningless since he can't find 1st base. Speed is useless when it belongs to a guy with a .276 OBP.

harangatang
12-08-2005, 02:37 PM
As Steel pointed out on the other board, Woe-mack's speed is pretty meaningless since he can't find 1st base. Speed is useless when it belongs to a guy with a .276 OBP.

Womack will be our primary pinch-runner:D

CTA513
12-08-2005, 02:44 PM
Reds should have traded Griffey & Dunn for Womack.

:)

;)

vaticanplum
12-08-2005, 02:45 PM
I don't think it's a bad deal....

Womacks last season in the NL, and NL Central for that matter, he batted over .300, played excellent situational ball, and swiped enough bags to but the running game into effect.

In fact, he stole 20+ bases last season, in the AL, and in New York (and admittedly difficult market to struggle in anyway) and that would put him second on the Reds roster.

Howard will probably never see playing time anyway, and I am not familiar with Himes.

If anything, the optimist in me says that this is a sign that they are going in a NL running style of offense over the pitiful AL 3-run homer style they have been spinning their wheels with the last 8-9 seasons.....

Womack alone is not enough for that. If they really wanted to go for that, they'd have to revamp the entire team, and they shouldn't be doing that right now as offense is hardly the Reds' greatest problem. They should be focusing on the pitching.

I don't think the NL stats are incredibly relevant. Tony Womack is no spring chicken and he is going to start to lose whatever he has now. He did not get a lot of playing time last year and he wasn't very good when he did. (And, I might add, he was vocal in his distaste for his bench and outfield time.)

I try to give DOB the benefit of the doubt sometimes. I thought the Casey trade was alright, and sometimes I think he may have a better long-term plan up his sleeve. But I think this is a bad trade, flat-out.

Wheelhouse
12-08-2005, 02:50 PM
Womack's a winner--he was a key to the Dbacks winning and was a key to St. Lou's run in 2004...not a bad move. He'll do well with the Reds.

CTA513
12-08-2005, 02:51 PM
Womack's a winner--he was a key to the Dbacks winning and was a key to St. Lou's run in 2004...not a bad move. He'll do well with the Reds.

I hope he can pitch.

TeamSelig
12-08-2005, 02:52 PM
I hate this trade because I have a feeling Womack will start at 2B and lead off. Blah.

Matt700wlw
12-08-2005, 03:20 PM
I hate this trade because I have a feeling Womack will start at 2B and lead off. Blah.

Platoon with Freel is what I'm thinking.

Of course, Aurilia may be back...

Puffy
12-08-2005, 03:27 PM
Platoon with Freel is what I'm thinking.

Of course, Aurilia may be back...

I'm tellin ya - Aurilia is going to be the new first basemen. One of the outfielders will be traded and Dunn will be back out there and Aurilia will be the Reds opening day starter at first.

SunDeck
12-08-2005, 03:30 PM
I'm tellin ya - Aurilia is going to be the new first basemen. One of the outfielders will be traded and Dunn will be back out there and Aurilia will be the Reds opening day starter at first.

Casey had more range.
A bar stool has more range.
Anyways, he'll only be there until FeLo beats him out of the job.

Milezinni
12-08-2005, 03:35 PM
Rumor----Yankees are throwing in $900,00 towards Womack's salary.

Other rumor---Reds trying to get Gathright or Huff from Tampa.....

But, rumors are just that.....

Matt700wlw
12-08-2005, 03:36 PM
I think the $900,000 is fact

cjs070484
12-08-2005, 03:38 PM
Not a terrible move, because Howard was not going anywhere with us, and the Yanks sent money along as well. I think this is an insurance policy in case Aurila decides to sign elsewhere. He seems to be getting a lot of interest from Anaheim. How do you think Womack feels? Losing job in NY, then playing OF, and now traded to the Reds... nice way to end a career :eek:

OldRightHander
12-08-2005, 03:38 PM
DanO is on with Lance right now. Should be interesting.

BRM
12-08-2005, 03:39 PM
DanO is on with Lance right now. Should be interesting.

Keep us posted please.

ED44
12-08-2005, 03:41 PM
Rumor----Yankees are throwing in $900,00 towards Womack's salary.

Other rumor---Reds trying to get Gathright or Huff from Tampa.....

But, rumors are just that.....

When/where did you hear the Gathwright rumor? You made my day if true! I think Huff is out of our price range though...unless we can swing him to Boston and SOMEHOW pry Papelbon from them.

Reds4Life
12-08-2005, 03:45 PM
O'Brien on Lance saying they are trying to improve the club, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. Still talking with teams about other deals. Womack won't play the outfield.

He said it's "status quo going forward". Boy, he ain't kiddin'.

TeamWomack
12-08-2005, 03:45 PM
How do you think Womack feels? Losing job in NY, then playing OF, and now traded to the Reds... nice way to end a career :eek:

I'm glad someone here has given some thought as to how Tony feels about this transaction.

He's a person too.

BRM
12-08-2005, 03:46 PM
O'Brien on Lance saying they are trying to improve the club, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. Still talking with teams about other deals. Womack won't play the outfield.

He said it's "status quo going forward". Boy, he ain't kiddin'.

Womack won't play OF because he's the Reds starting 2B. "Status quo going forward" = :lastyear:

timmario66
12-08-2005, 03:48 PM
Keep us posted please.

A couple of interesting things, including not a guarantee RA is back. Says it was just to keep negotiating longer but Rich's pursuing other options right now.

It sounded like the Outfield will be Pena/Griffey/Kearns and he's not looking to trade any of them but he said they are looking to trade offense for pitching. Who's left? Larue???

He's still interested in Morris.

Puffy
12-08-2005, 03:49 PM
He said it's "status quo going forward". Boy, he ain't kiddin'.


OK, what the heck does status quo going forward mean? So we are going to keep the status quo by going forward and making deals? If your making deals isn't that the exact opposite of status quo?

Who has their Dan O'Brien decoder ring - we need to figure this out.

Puffy
12-08-2005, 03:50 PM
He's still interested in Morris.

That does make sense - Hal Morris was our first baseman the last time we won a World Series :thumbup:

:evil:

BRM
12-08-2005, 03:51 PM
It sounded like the Outfield will be Pena/Griffey/Kearns and he's not looking to trade any of them but he said they are looking to trade offense for pitching. Who's left? Larue???


Adam Dunn? Felipe Lopez?

Reds4Life
12-08-2005, 03:52 PM
Lance is saying Womack at $1.1 million is a steal!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

max venable
12-08-2005, 03:53 PM
Womak is so bad that honestly...I'd rather have Aurilia back than have Womak on our roster.

rdiersin
12-08-2005, 03:55 PM
Lance is saying Womack at $1.1 million is a steal!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I was just going to comment on that. Jeesh. Steal, yea, that's the word I would use.:rolleyes:

BRM
12-08-2005, 03:55 PM
Womak is so bad that honestly...I'd rather have Aurilia back than have Womak on our roster.

I'd rather give the 2B job to Freel, Olmedo or Bergolla than have either of them on the roster.

vaticanplum
12-08-2005, 04:06 PM
Ok, I feel the strange need to play devil's advocate for a moment for Womack. I don't dislike Tony Womack and I don't think he's a bad player. If, say, the Astros could fritter him away in a similar trade, it might not be a bad deal. But he is in no way a fit for this team. There's no reason to get him for offense, because the Reds don't need it that badly, and anyway he can't hit so well anymore. There's no reason to get him for speed, because this isn't currently a team built on speed (and if they start revamping the team based on Tony Womack, well, color me confused; if they want to do that, they should do it with young players like Freel). There's no reason to get him for defense; he's kind of lost his touch here, and there are a couple of viable young Reds here who need to be developing it at this time (I actually like Bergolla). He doesn't inherently suck like Cristian Guzman or David Bell. He just doesn't make any sense for the current Reds, not even in a potential-money-saving way or anything like that. THIS is what drives me crazy about the current management. It's not just that so many of their moves are bad. It's that so many of their moves are so damaging to this particular team. Which is kind of detrimental to management.

NC Reds
12-08-2005, 04:09 PM
I feel badly for Freel, Olmedo and Bergolla. As I said in a different thread, they can play incredibly well next spring training and it won't matter. Womack has been penciled in as a starter. Like Danny Graves before him as closer, Womack will have to fail spectacularly before getting replaced.

I would rather watch Bergolla learn on the job than see a washed-up veteran on the downside of his career. Steal indeed.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 04:10 PM
Excellent pick up. I would like to have seen the Reds retain Howard. Womack will be a very good addition. Combined with Freel this gives the Reds some well needed depth. This more than likely means Aurillia is out or may sign and be traded. Which, despite having decent numbers is a good thing because of his negative influence. Glad to see Cruz will be in camp as well.

Topcat
12-08-2005, 04:15 PM
Has Tony Womack been a horrible player his whole career ? Far as I can tell 1.1 million buys you not much these days. He fits that vet bat experience thingy you can swap to a contender later in season so call me crazy, but this isn't a bad deal.

Topcat
12-08-2005, 04:16 PM
Excellent pick up. I would like to have seen the Reds retain Howard. Womack will be a very good addition. Combined with Freel this gives the Reds some well needed depth. This more than likely means Aurillia is out or may sign and be traded. Which, despite having decent numbers is a good thing because of his negative influence. Glad to see Cruz will be in camp as well.


TC thanks for adding a Proffesionals opinion. Now I dont feel so silly thinkin this was ok.

tbball10
12-08-2005, 04:17 PM
some of u guys act like howard was aguarenteed mvp in the next 5 yrs on this thread, when all ive read on others was that we hoped he could contribute off the bench in a few years. settle down, howard was nothing special and himes, eventhough had a great year last year, he was old for his league and we are already stocked in the outfield. i think if womack plays full time he will be productive, and will provide the speed we need at the top of the lineup. it will also allow felo to bat 2nd where he is more suited.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 04:20 PM
some of u guys act like howard was aguarenteed mvp in the next 5 yrs on this thread, when all ive read on others was that we hoped he could contribute off the bench in a few years. settle down, howard was nothing special and himes, eventhough had a great year last year, he was old for his league and we are already stocked in the outfield. i think if womack plays full time he will be productive, and will provide the speed we need at the top of the lineup. it will also allow felo to bat 2nd where he is more suited.

Agreed. Howard was certainly not a "can't miss". However, he was good enough to ge this deal done. Hey at least Dan O didn't give away Claussen. Now would be a good time to shop Paul Wilson for a AA prospect. Paul wilson will be Jimmy Haynes II in April.

KoryMac5
12-08-2005, 04:21 PM
Womack for St louis in 2004 batted .307 and stole 27 bases and only committed 15 errors all year at second base. Not a bad pick up at all and honestly we are pretty slow overall in the team speed dept.

MWM
12-08-2005, 04:24 PM
Womack will be a very good addition.

What part of Tony Womack's game is good? I can understand not minding the pickup, but I can't in any way fathom how someone would think he's a good addition, especially someone claiming to have a future in baseball. Help us lay people understand. i'm being serious here. But you have to do better than "he gives us depth."

BRM
12-08-2005, 04:24 PM
What depth does Woe-mack bring? He can't hit, can't take a walk, and plays mediocre defense. He is an extremely unnecessary pickup. It doesn't matter what we traded for him. He is an unneeded player at this point.

MWM
12-08-2005, 04:25 PM
Womack for St louis in 2004 batted .307 and stole 27 bases and only committed 15 errors all year at second base. Not a bad pick up at all and honestly we are pretty slow overall in the team speed dept.

What did he do last year? He's 36 years old.

acredsfan
12-08-2005, 04:26 PM
Here we go with another one year veteran "Rent-a-player' to temporarily fill a gap. When are we going to give a young guy a chance to show what they have. To me Bergolla, and Olmedo have proven all they can in the minors, it's time to let them lose every day at the major league level and see if they have what it takes. At worst, you have very little production from your 2nd baseman, and have to find another answer, but at least you know that Olmedo or Bergolla either do or don't have what it takes and you can move on.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 04:28 PM
Womack brings a lot to the table in the "professionalism" side. Fans forget how many times he has been written off and continues to prove people wrong.

With Casey shipped off and a lot of young talent in the clubhouse this trade is the equivalent to the Reds bringing in Billy Hatcher. Eric Davis gives a tremendous amount of credit to Billy for making him play hard EVERY DAY and bringing the level of "professionalism" up in the clubhouse. We all know the results. Not that the Reds will win the WS this year but it will only improve the "team". Just what the Reds need.

tbball10
12-08-2005, 04:30 PM
What depth does Woe-mack bring? He can't hit, can't take a walk, and plays mediocre defense. He is an extremely unnecessary pickup. It doesn't matter what we traded for him. He is an unneeded player at this point.

i think he is needed at the top of the lineup, and i think the people who dont like this trade are basing their opinions on his season last year, where he was in and out of the lineup. i think he can be close to his '04 form in st. louis w/ an opportunity to play everyday again.

MWM
12-08-2005, 04:33 PM
Womack brings a lot to the table in the "professionalism" side. Fans forget how many times he has been written off and continues to prove people wrong.

I really, really don't want to be disrespectful, but you can't possibly be serious that this is the reason why the Reds should acquire guys like Womack.

The whole "with Casey shipped off" argument implies that this "professionalism" somehow helps them win. They had the best guy on the planet for this stuff and they still lost 89 games.

And how did he prove anyone wrong last year?

BRM
12-08-2005, 04:33 PM
'04 was the best year he ever had, at the age of 34. Why on earth would we believe he can repeat that two years later, coming off a terrible season? The man has a career .316 OBP. I doubt he'll outperform that next year.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 04:33 PM
What did he do last year? He's 36 years old.

True he is getting older. Has his game slipped. What 36 year old is the same as he was at 26? For the Reds this is an excellent pick up! With runners on 1st and 2nd one out and the Reds hitting in the 7th do you want Bergolla at the plate or Womack? I've seen Tony play for a long time. I'll pick Womack. Those runners WILL advance. Bergolla would strike out. When Freel goes down again, and he will, how screwed are the Reds? Pretty screwed. Now womack can fill in. Can't hit huh? Considering he played 6 weeks with a Broken wrist I'd say he did pretty well. Why don't you check his number before the injury? He was hitting VERY well. Do you want Aurillia disrupting the clubhouse every day or do you want Womack showing the young guys how to be winners? This an excellent pick up.

pedro
12-08-2005, 04:33 PM
I think people are basing their dislike of this trade on the fact that Womack has a career OBP of .316, no pop, and isn't a very good fielder.

If the Reds make him their leadoff hitter and give him 600 AB's they will be a worse team next year. The only valid justification I can make for this trade is that it is an attempt to get Aurilia to not accept arbitration.

If Womack is used as a BU 2B and the Reds don't keep RA, then it isn't as foolish, but if they plan to start him......

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 04:34 PM
i think he is needed at the top of the lineup, and i think the people who dont like this trade are basing their opinions on his season last year, where he was in and out of the lineup. i think he can be close to his '04 form in st. louis w/ an opportunity to play everyday again.

In his best season, he produced a .349 OBP. That is NOT a top of the order hitter. The year before and the year after that "career year" he had OBP's of .251 and .276, respectively. That's HORRID. He's also not at an age where you could expect ANY improvement.

MWM
12-08-2005, 04:36 PM
With runners on 1st and 2nd one out and the Reds hitting in the 7th do you want Bergolla at the plate or Womack? I've

Neither! And I'm sorry to sound rude, but if briging up a certain game situation and then saying Womack will advance runners to go along with "professionalism" is the best you can do as far as convincing someone that he's a "great" pickup, then maybe it's not such a good addition. Tony has NEVER been a good hitter, injury or not.

ochre
12-08-2005, 04:37 PM
his CAREER on base percentage is .316.

its not that low due to drastic performance swings. He has exactly 2 years of above .330 OBPs -- .332 in '99, and .349 in '04. I know we all think the Reds need to cut down on the runs next year, but when I say that I mean Runs allowed, not runs scored.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 04:37 PM
I really, really don't want to be disrespectful, but you can't possibly be serious that this is the reason why the Reds should acquire guys like Womack.

The whole "with Casey shipped off" argument implies that this "professionalism" somehow helps them win. They had the best guy on the planet for this stuff and they still lost 89 games.

And how did he prove anyone wrong last year?

I had not seen your reply yet. Please read my other response. Debate is what makes Baseball so great.

Casey was a great guy in the clubhouse and a good leader. "Professionalism" is a huge ingredient. Look at the difference Narron made.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 04:41 PM
Neither! And I'm sorry to sound rude, but if briging up a certain game situation and then saying Womack will advance runners to go along with "professionalism" is the best you can do as far as convincing someone that he's a "great" pickup, then maybe it's not such a good addition. Tony has NEVER been a good hitter, injury or not.

Just so we're clear. I don't think Tony Womack walks on water. And I respect the "NEITHER" comment because I hear what you are saying. BUT!!!!!! this is what the Reds HAVE!!!! This is the best they are going to be able to do. I would love for the Reds to have picked up a Mark Loretta or even Rob Mackowiak but their farm system is not deep enough and their payroll is limited. So, this is what we have. Tony Womack fits the bill.

KronoRed
12-08-2005, 04:41 PM
I'm tellin ya - Aurilia is going to be the new first basemen.
I had the same thought last night, why bring Rich back? to play 1st of course.

Good grief.

ochre
12-08-2005, 04:42 PM
Just so we're clear. I don't think Tony Womack walks on water. And I respect the "NEITHER" comment because I hear what you are saying. BUT!!!!!! this is what the Reds HAVE!!!! This is the best they are going to be able to do. I would love for the Reds to have picked up a Mark Loretta or even Rob Mackowiak but their farm system is not deep enough and their payroll is limited. So, this is what we have. Tony Womack fits the bill.
Howard would likely have been able to do as well, or better than Womack at league minimum.

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 04:51 PM
Just so we're clear. I don't think Tony Womack walks on water. And I respect the "NEITHER" comment because I hear what you are saying. BUT!!!!!! this is what the Reds HAVE!!!! This is the best they are going to be able to do. I would love for the Reds to have picked up a Mark Loretta or even Rob Mackowiak but their farm system is not deep enough and their payroll is limited. So, this is what we have. Tony Womack fits the bill.

That's not a defense of Tony Womack. It's an indictment of an incredibly inept front office; one that continues to value "professionalism" and "depth" over tangible benefits like "performance".

You may as well have said, "Tony Womack sucks, but he's a gamer and the Reds can't do any better than to find players who suck so he's a GREAT signing." That makes no sense whatsoever.

Tony Womack is a poor performer. Has been for the vast majority of his career. Poor performers are not helpful pieces to a franchise. They're destructive.

reds44
12-08-2005, 04:51 PM
I kind of like the move. Womack is one year removed from an all-star season and one of the best seasons in his career. Then, he went to New York last year, which isn't the easiest place ot play to begin with, and he was moved around between 2B and OF all year long. Not really a good chance to do well in that situation. He is in a contract year, and if he doesn't preform well his career could be over. He is going to work his butt of this year. Now, if we bring RA back, my thoughts will do a complete 180 on this trade. If we sepnd Casey's freed up money on Womack and RA I will be pissed!

We could have done much worse then Womack. Playing in Cincy will do his stats wonders.

CincyRedsFan30
12-08-2005, 04:54 PM
I really feel for Freel. He keeps getting shafted, despite his strong performances over the last few years.

This move wouldn't have been AS bad if Womack was there to be a backup for Freel at 2B, with Freel hitting leadoff.

acredsfan
12-08-2005, 04:55 PM
Womack brings a lot to the table in the "professionalism" side. Fans forget how many times he has been written off and continues to prove people wrong.

With Casey shipped off and a lot of young talent in the clubhouse this trade is the equivalent to the Reds bringing in Billy Hatcher. Eric Davis gives a tremendous amount of credit to Billy for making him play hard EVERY DAY and bringing the level of "professionalism" up in the clubhouse. We all know the results. Not that the Reds will win the WS this year but it will only improve the "team". Just what the Reds need.I'm not so much frustrated at the fact that Womack is here, I'm sure he is a great professional and he has overcome a lot of adversity, but I'm really frustrated that the growth of our younger 2nd basemen has been slowed by first the signing of Aurillia, and now the trade for Womack. Its obvious that as high as the Reds are on Freel as a utility player, he will never be given an every day job at one position, so why not let someone from within the system try and make the position theirs?

ochre
12-08-2005, 04:56 PM
I kind of like the move. Womack is one year removed from an all-star season and one of the best seasons in his career. Then, he went to New York last year, which isn't the easiest place ot play to begin with, and he was moved around between 2B and OF all year long. Not really a good chance to do well in that situation. He is in a contract year, and if he doesn't preform well his career could be over. He is going to work his butt of this year. Now, if we bring RA back, my thoughts will do a complete 180 on this trade. If we sepnd Casey's freed up money on Womack and RA I will be pissed!

We could have done much worse then Womack. Playing in Cincy will do his stats wonders.
Playing in Cincy won't do squat for a player that profiles like him. No pop, no OBP players are fairly park independent.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2005, 04:58 PM
I also happen to think Eddie Encarnacion loses an at-bat or two as a result of this trade.

ochre
12-08-2005, 05:01 PM
I also happen to think Eddie Encarnacion loses an at-bat or two as a result of this trade.
Nah, pin that one on the impending RA arbitration. He'll not find a better market than what he'll get there. It will be further proof of the old adage: "The only idiocy you can rely on is your own".

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 05:03 PM
Playing in Cincy won't do squat for a player that profiles like him. No pop, no OBP players are fairly park independent.

Last season 1,329 MLB players put on a glove, threw a pitch, or grabbed a bat.

Tony Womack ranked 1,318th among those players with a negative 4 Win Shares above Bench level.

The Reds just picked up a guy who may be the worst regular player in baseball while wasting two prospect resources and about 20% of the cost savings associated with the Sean Casey trade.

And some folks seem to be happy about that.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2005, 05:05 PM
The Reds are so far below an afterthought in the grand scheme of baseball that it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see them purchased one of these days when no one is looking (and frankly no one will be looking soon enough) by an out of town outfit, when the value of the club is sub-Royals, and moved somewhere else. These hometown owners are literally crushing this franchise to death. In the great effort to "keep 'em local" these owners may be, ironically, driving this club to greener pastures elsewhere.

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 05:06 PM
Last season 1,329 MLB players put on a glove, threw a pitch, or grabbed a bat.

Tony Womack ranked 1,318th among those players with a negative 4 Win Shares above Bench level.

The Reds just picked up a guy who may be the worst regular player in baseball while wasting two prospect resources and about 20% of the cost savings associated with the Sean Casey trade.

And some folks seem to be happy about that.


Well, gosh. I never thought about it that way. :rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

KronoRed
12-08-2005, 05:07 PM
Who was 1,329th?

Because that will be our next target.

westofyou
12-08-2005, 05:08 PM
The Reds are so far below an afterthought in the grand scheme of baseball that it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see them purchased one of these days when no one is looking (and frankly no one will be looking soon enough) by an out of town outfit, when the value of the club is sub-Royals, and moved somewhere else. These hometown owners are literally crushing this franchise to death. In the great effort to "keep 'em local" these owners may be, ironically, driving this club to greener pastures elsewhere.40 year lease, and a suitcase of past decisions just as bad if not worse than this one says you'll get an Oscar for that speech.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2005, 05:16 PM
40 year lease, and a suitcase of past decisions just as bad if not worse than this one says you'll get an Oscar for that speech.

Well, I didn't say it would happen tomorrow. Deals like this just hasten obsolescence. Nothing lasts forever. I'm not sure I see a great economic resurgence occurring in the Rust Belt anytime soon either--as Americans move south and west--or back east. I think it would be crazy to think that an unbroken string of 15-17 years of this kind of putrescence wouldn't leave an indelible scar.

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 05:18 PM
Who was 1,329th?

Because that will be our next target.

Been there, done that (sadly).

1,329th is Jose Lima (-8).

1,328th is Eric Milton (-7).

Ramon Ortiz tied with a bunch of other guys (including Danny Graves) for positions #1,262-#1,308.

Paul Wilson's quick implosion was worth as much (or as little) as Tony Womack's season-long slow bleed.

The Reds need to change thier name to "BadPlayersRUs".

westofyou
12-08-2005, 05:19 PM
Nothing lasts forever. I'm not sure I see a great economic resurgence occurring in the Rust Belt anytime soon eitherTrue, I think Milwaukee will be the first city that experiences that. As it stands now the Cincinnati area is gaining people if I remember right. Population growth means dollars to be chased.

TeamBoone
12-08-2005, 05:19 PM
All I'm saying is that the new owner, Castellini, told O'Brien to make some trades to improve the Reds NOW. He didn't want prospects that will develop in 5-7 years, he wanted players that will make an immediate impact. Since Dan O'Brien is fully incapable of this in general, and even worse under time constraints, you get a trade like this.

I can't see Castellini directly telling O'Brien to trade Kevin Howard and Ben Himes for Tony Womack, or even telling O'Brien to get Tony Womack for whoever for that matter.

From an article on the cincinnati.com website (also posted in another thread):


Reds general manager Dan O'Brien says he's answering only to chief operating officer John Allen.

"The only individual I deal with is John," O'Brien said. "Where it goes after John, I don't know."

It's known that Allen has had meetings with Castellini, so it's reasonable to think Allen would not have approved a trade of Casey without first clearing it with Castellini.


http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051208/SPT04/512080340/-1/CINCI

Falls City Beer
12-08-2005, 05:21 PM
True, I think Milwaukee will be the first city that experiences that. As it stands now the Cincinnati area is gaining people if I remember right. Population growth means dollars to be chased.

Cincy growth is negligible at best--check the census figures. Pitt and Milwaukee are worse, but Cincy's growth is incredibly minute. And the job market is atrocious.

TeamBoone
12-08-2005, 05:21 PM
What happened with acquiring pitching? I read somewhere that even DOB said that was the first priority.... so far, it doesn't look like it.

Puffy
12-08-2005, 05:23 PM
Been there, done that (sadly).

1,329th is Jose Lima (-8).

1,328th is Eric Milton (-7).

Ramon Ortiz tied with a bunch of other guys (including Danny Graves) for positions #1,262-#1,308.

Paul Wilson's quick implosion was worth as much (or as little) as Tony Womack's season-long slow bleed.

The Reds need to change thier name to "BadPlayersRUs".


So, you're saying we have two of the worst 12 players in the league right now. And that the two are, combined, taking approximately 10 million in payroll?

Wooohooooooooooooooooo!!

Eric_Davis
12-08-2005, 05:26 PM
The only way this is a good deal is if it's a bluff to get Aurilia to reject arbitration since Womack would be his replacement. Then, after Aurilia rejects it, the Reds release Womack. But the Reds are too dumb to do that.

I can only hope this is the scenario....kill two (old) birds with one stone.

steig
12-08-2005, 05:27 PM
Let's look at the positive side of this trade...DanO is making a strong case for being fired. :jump:

Falls City Beer
12-08-2005, 05:28 PM
Well, on this note, time to get drunk and grade some student papers. *fart*

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 05:30 PM
So, you're saying we have two of the worst 12 players in the league right now. And that the two are, combined, taking approximately 10 million in payroll?

Wooohooooooooooooooooo!!

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. Dan O'Brien collects awful MLB players. That's his schtick.

You'd think that, sooner or later, even the most staunch supporters of the guy would figure out that actually targetting bad players is what we call a "problem".

The guy simply can't tell good players from bad players. Probably won't ever be able to.

Red Leader
12-08-2005, 05:33 PM
TeamBoone. Thanks for that.

Here's where I'm at with this, and God do I hope I right.

Castellini tells O'Brien to acquire major league players in trade during the winter meetings. Maybe he gives names of players he wants traded, or a list of players, ie. Sean Casey and his salary, but then he lets O'Brien go out and seek deals to make. O'Brien does the negotiating and comes up with these trades (Casey-Williams; Howard/Himes-Womack). O'Brien then goes back to Allen and says "here are the trades I've worked out." Allen then goes to Castellini and says "here are the trades Dan has put together." Castellini approves 1) because the Casey trade cuts payroll and solves OF problem and 2) because losing Howard/Himes isn't that big of a deal. After all is said and done Castellini calls O'Brien into the office and says "yeah, good work on the deals, you cut payroll with the Casey trade, and get a decent utility infielder for 2 prospects that weren't going to stick anyway...BUT, you didn't improve the team like I wanted you too. You didn't get significant value for the players you traded, you didn't upgrade the pitching staff to make us more competitive in the short term, and you acquired a player (Womack) who adds no real value to this team. DanO. You're FIRED.

So basically, I'm hoping that DanO is kind of in a test phase. If he goes to move a player that Castellini thinks is important, he vetoes the trade. If the trade doesn't have any impact on players he views as important, even though he may not approve or like them, he lets them go through, just to see what DanO can do.

and like I said, God do I hope I'm right because if Castellini is the one negotiating these trades, we're going to be suffering for a long, long time.

KronoRed
12-08-2005, 06:15 PM
Well, on this note, time to get drunk and grade some student papers. *fart*
Lucky students? ;)

Nugget
12-08-2005, 06:49 PM
The REDS have done well with this trade. I think Bergolla is where EE was a year ago. That is he probably needs a year at AAA to develop his hitting a bit more.

From what I gather with Olmedo it would appear that he lacks that next step up to become an everyday player.

Womack has been on a number of pennant winning teams. Also some players just don't fit into a team or league. Womack has always been a decent 2B in the National League.

The REDS have also solved their problem at 2B. RA wasn't gonig to stay for less that 2 million and Freel could not be an everyday play and is of better use in the utility role. Better option than bring in Nomar.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 07:04 PM
Whether we agree or disagree on the Womack trade. Hopefully we all agree that Dan O has to go and someone who has the ability to make sound descisions in a timely manner can be brought on board.

Since I just got back home after driving in the snow for 90 minutes, has any Reds official said Womack was going to start? I'm all for Tony coming as a bench player but if he starts this is certainly a step in the WRONG direction. Tony, could be very effective the way LaRussa had to use him.

RFS62
12-08-2005, 07:11 PM
Since I just got back home after driving in the snow for 90 minutes, has any Reds official said Womack was going to start? I'm all for Tony coming as a bench player but if he starts this is certainly a step in the WRONG direction. Tony, could be very effective the way LaRussa had to use him.



This is my fear. Same as Aurillia last year. I think we picked him up to start.

RedsIn07
12-08-2005, 07:12 PM
The REDS have done well with this trade. I think Bergolla is where EE was a year ago. That is he probably needs a year at AAA to develop his hitting a bit more.
Bergolla REALLY needs to work on his OBP skills, especially for the type of player he projects to be, and probably will end up being just a utility guy anyway.

reds44
12-08-2005, 07:13 PM
No, Womack will have to compete with Freel and Bergolla to start. If he beats them out, then he should start. We traded away a guy that would have been drafted in the Rule 5 draft, and I am not sure who the other player was. We basically gave up nothing, and who knows he could surprise some people.

Simple as that

Willy
12-08-2005, 07:14 PM
Womack has 300 walks in 12 seasons:eek:

That is an average of 38 a season(162 games), what in the heck are they hoping this guy could offer the Reds for 1.1 Million?

I have no idea where this team is headed, but this kind of stuff makes me feel like I ate too many bean buritos.

RFS62
12-08-2005, 07:14 PM
No, Womack will have to compete with Freel and Bergolla to start. If he beats them out, then he should start.

Simple as that


Like Aurillia beat FeLo out last spring?

Bah.

reds44
12-08-2005, 07:15 PM
This isn't Miley it is Narron. New manager, hopefully better decisions.

Reds Nd2
12-08-2005, 07:17 PM
The only valid justification I can make for this trade is that it is an attempt to get Aurilia to not accept arbitration.

I may not understand this, so bear with me. If the Reds offer Aurillia arbitration and he declines, the Reds will receive a Type B draft pick from the team that eventually signs him. Correct? If so, that would seem to be an awfully risky game of chicken for O'Brien to be playing. Not to mention expensive, not only in the cost of paying both Woe-mack and Aurillia,, the lost of two trading chips, but also the lost developemental time for the younger players.

I'm beginning to think that O'Brien wanted at least one of these players and maybe both. I don't think Dano just pulled this out of his binder as he was stepping off the plane in Dallas. It's my opinion that Dano did the Womack trade, not to pressure Aurillia not to accept arbitration, but as insurance in case he didn't accept.

WVRedsFan
12-08-2005, 07:17 PM
TeamBoone. Thanks for that.

Here's where I'm at with this, and God do I hope I right.

Castellini tells O'Brien to acquire major league players in trade during the winter meetings. Maybe he gives names of players he wants traded, or a list of players, ie. Sean Casey and his salary, but then he lets O'Brien go out and seek deals to make. O'Brien does the negotiating and comes up with these trades (Casey-Williams; Howard/Himes-Womack). O'Brien then goes back to Allen and says "here are the trades I've worked out." Allen then goes to Castellini and says "here are the trades Dan has put together." Castellini approves 1) because the Casey trade cuts payroll and solves OF problem and 2) because losing Howard/Himes isn't that big of a deal. After all is said and done Castellini calls O'Brien into the office and says "yeah, good work on the deals, you cut payroll with the Casey trade, and get a decent utility infielder for 2 prospects that weren't going to stick anyway...BUT, you didn't improve the team like I wanted you too. You didn't get significant value for the players you traded, you didn't upgrade the pitching staff to make us more competitive in the short term, and you acquired a player (Womack) who adds no real value to this team. DanO. You're FIRED.

So basically, I'm hoping that DanO is kind of in a test phase. If he goes to move a player that Castellini thinks is important, he vetoes the trade.

That's what I said back over on the other side. This was a test and DanO failed, but not enough to permanently damage the club. If the goal was to improve the club to win now with better pitching and relieve the outfield jam, he did it, but he didn't do it as well as expected of a ML GM.

I imagine Mr. Produce will continue to take applications.

BoydsOfSummer
12-08-2005, 07:23 PM
Of course they got him with the purpose to start him. That's how this franchise operates. It's stomach turning.

I inherited Womack on a DMB team I took over; I traded him for Matt Wise and Jerry Hairston. Not that I'm capable of running a ML club or am some kind of guru, but that's the kind of deal you make,not the one Dan-D'oh just made.

BRM
12-08-2005, 07:24 PM
This is almost funny. Steel has already shown that Woe-mack was one of the worst regular postition players in all of MLB last year yet some folks are still happy he's now a Red. I just don't understand.

RFS62
12-08-2005, 07:24 PM
This isn't Miley it is Narron. New manager, hopefully better decisions.



I never thought that starting Aurillia was all Miley. I always believed that decision had DanO's fingerprints all over it, no matter what he said.

reds44
12-08-2005, 07:25 PM
I never thought that starting Aurillia was all Miley. I always believed that decision had DanO's fingerprints all over it, no matter what he said.

Well then we are screwed
:bang:

Please God, I just want to contend!!!

BRM
12-08-2005, 07:29 PM
Well then we are screwed
:bang:

Please God, I just want to contend!!!

Well, it ain't happening in '06. :(

Reds Nd2
12-08-2005, 07:30 PM
Since I just got back home after driving in the snow for 90 minutes, has any Reds official said Womack was going to start?

TC, I heard O'Brien earlier today and he didn't mention the Woe-mack trade. Narron had the usual plays the game right, has been a winner before comments. No one mentioned him starting. O'Brien did say that Freel would be playing multiple positions next season and that Dunn going to 1B would be Narron's decision.

What have you heard, if anything, about Dunn going to 1B? From a fan's viewpoint, I'm still thinking that Kearns, Peņa, or maybe both get traded. Heard anything along those lines?

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 07:31 PM
Well then we are screwed
:bang:

Please God, I just want to contend!!!

Agreed and Agreed. Just like the order to take the Chairs away didn't come from O"Brien when in fact it did. LOL! OB probably always wanted to manage and he had his chance with Miley at the helm. LOL!

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 07:33 PM
TC, I heard O'Brien earlier today and he didn't mention the Woe-mack trade. Narron had the usual plays the game right, has been a winner before comments. No one mentioned him starting. O'Brien did say that Freel would be playing multiple positions next season and that Dunn going to 1B would be Narron's decision.

What have you heard, if anything, about Dunn going to 1B? From a fan's viewpoint, I'm still thinking that Kearns, Peņa, or maybe both get traded. Heard anything along those lines?

I tried to call Dunner but my calls are not going out. With the highways being packed I'm sure the cell towers are jammed. I did get an e-mail out and a response back from Tino Martinez. He had a great take on this. I had e-mailed him originally about something else and remembered that he played with Womack. I wanted his thoughts. I'll see if he'll let me post his reply.

buckshotrod
12-08-2005, 07:34 PM
You got to be kidding me..I just got home from work and while eating supper learn Dan O gets womack..I about barfed what little food I had in my gut! :help:
Mr Unabrow, as my wife calls Womack, flatout stinks. If we are also trying to get Aurilla and have Womack, where does that leave Freel??? :bang:

FYI..off topic but I heard marty interviewed yesterday and he likes the Casey-Williams deal. time will tell I guess?? :help:

Reds Nd2
12-08-2005, 07:35 PM
I'll see if he'll let me post his reply.

That'd be great.

Falls City Beer
12-08-2005, 07:37 PM
You got to be kidding me..I just got home from work and while eating supper learn Dan O gets womack..I about barfed what little food I had in my gut!
Mr Unabrow, as my wife calls Womack, flatout stinks.


Post more often, funny stuff. :beerme:

DoogMinAmo
12-08-2005, 07:53 PM
Last season 1,329 MLB players put on a glove, threw a pitch, or grabbed a bat.

Tony Womack ranked 1,318th among those players with a negative 4 Win Shares above Bench level.

The Reds just picked up a guy who may be the worst regular player in baseball while wasting two prospect resources and about 20% of the cost savings associated with the Sean Casey trade.

And some folks seem to be happy about that.

At least they are buying low.

Phhhl
12-08-2005, 08:02 PM
Whether we agree or disagree on the Womack trade. Hopefully we all agree that Dan O has to go and someone who has the ability to make sound descisions in a timely manner can be brought on board.

Since I just got back home after driving in the snow for 90 minutes, has any Reds official said Womack was going to start? I'm all for Tony coming as a bench player but if he starts this is certainly a step in the WRONG direction. Tony, could be very effective the way LaRussa had to use him.

LaRussa started him and led him off.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 08:16 PM
LaRussa started him and led him off.

If I recall, Vina was injured and Womack was tearing it up in ST for Boston. A trade was made and Womack played about 135+ games or so. LaRussa had him in there when he was best suited. He had his best year. Womack is two years older and could be used in a Freel like role if he produces. Freel is good for about 120 games. He wears down, gets hurt and becomes Chris Stynes. Womack could be successful if used in specific roles in about 90-100 games. IMO. I certainly do not see him becoming our everyday 2B and getting 575+ AB's. That would mean the Reds are at pure desperation.

Who knows? Maybe Womack goes to ST and finds he can't compete and packs it in. Olmedo has another year under his belt, is faster than Womack and has a much better glove. Stranger things have happened.

vaticanplum
12-08-2005, 08:28 PM
Mr Unabrow, as my wife calls Womack, flatout stinks.

I was at Yankee Stadium for many games of Womack's illustrious tenure in New York, and I can tell you that the correct fan diminutive for him is "Blow-mack".

TeamBoone
12-08-2005, 08:38 PM
They've offered Aurilia arbitration... why do they need Womack? He's 36 years old and didn't have a very good season last year... though granted, he was coming off a surgery.

So now the Reds have Womack AND Aurilia (probably). And still no decent pitching... in fact, they gave up some. Granted, they were prospects but who knows what they might have been, which is why they call them prospects.

Regarding Dunn a 1B... this, from an article I posted in a separate thread:


Casey's replacement would be slugger Adam Dunn, who would be shifted from the outfield. Dunn filled in there when Casey was out with a concussion near the end of the 2005 season, and Narron believed he had enough range to field the position well.

"There's no doubt in my mind that he can do the job, if that's what he really wants to do and he really works at it, no question," Narron said. "I haven't talked to him, but I know last year at the end of the season, he did a decent job over there and he had no problem with moving over to first base, even if it was once a month."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051207&content_id=1278680&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Topcat
12-08-2005, 08:48 PM
This is almost funny. Steel has already shown that Woe-mack was one of the worst regular postition players in all of MLB last year yet some folks are still happy he's now a Red. I just don't understand.


Whats funny is the fact they gave up crap just like with Casey and in return got a guy who makes 1 million and a 26 yr old lefty who defintly looks like a 4th on many staffs in the Majors. Should trading Casey and Howard and Ben Himes have netted us Paplebon or A Ervin Santana ? Sorry I just don"t get it ? I truly think Tony's speed and vetran presence can be flipped at the deadline for someting useful from a playoff team. Sine him up and ship him out, freel will get his at bats for sure and he will get injured again. So exactly what superstar 2b is going to be held back by this ?
In the end 2006 wasn't going to be great so any thing is open to be tried. Sorry but this doesn't go on OB and I am not an OB fan but COME ON ! We did not set the franchiose back by these moves.

reds44
12-08-2005, 08:50 PM
We got a 26 year old, improving starter for a 31 year old, slow, bad fielding, no power, #1 hitter trapped in a #3 hitters body 1st baseman making 8.5 millon dollars.

Step being down on Williams, he will be the 2nd best pitcher on our staff next year, watch.

Womack is a totally different stroy.

Raisor
12-08-2005, 08:58 PM
I come home from a long day at work, a day when one of our customers tried to get me fired (didn't work out that way, yippie)...and I find out that Tony Freaking Womack is now a Red.

Please tell me that this is just some elaborate practical joke on me.

Please.

Nevermind, I just checked the Reds board on MLB, and most of them think this is just fine and dandy ("We finally have a guy that can leadoff and steal 60-70 bases!!!")

I'm going back to being a Mariners fan. Wait, the M's have an idiot GM too.

Ummmmm...J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS! When does football season start?

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 09:00 PM
We got a 26 year old, improving starter for a 31 year old, slow, bad fielding, no power, #1 hitter trapped in a #3 hitters body 1st baseman making 8.5 millon dollars.

Step being down on Williams, he will be the 2nd best pitcher on our staff next year, watch.

Hmn...where have I heard something like that before...??

Oh yeah...


Posted by reds44 on 12/27/05:

Dude went 14-5! yes 14-5! Dan'O is proving he will spend money and he is added pitching. Milton will be our best pitcher! Come on guys why do you got to complain about everything!

Might as well be using a template.

buckshotrod
12-08-2005, 09:00 PM
in return got a guy who makes 1 million

Actually he makes 2 mill per year and Dan O pays him 1.1 mill. 1.1 mill for a bench rider.utility player blows in my opinion. :bang: Again, what the heck do we need with this guy if we are trying to sign Aurilla and have Freel?? I gotta believe we could come up with a darn better utility player for less money or even the same. O Brien blows my mind. I think he does things to make himself look like he is participating. Well he is participating alright, participating in making this team worse not better. I hope Castellini throws this schmuck out the door. :thumbup:

corkedbat
12-08-2005, 09:05 PM
I long for Dan0: The Early Years, when he didn't do a dang thing. :bang:

Topcat
12-08-2005, 09:10 PM
Actually he makes 2 mill per year and Dan O pays him 1.1 mill. 1.1 mill for a bench rider.utility player blows in my opinion. :bang: Again, what the heck do we need with this guy if we are trying to sign Aurilla and have Freel?? I gotta believe we could come up with a darn better utility player for less money or even the same. O Brien blows my mind. I think he does things to make himself look like he is participating. Well he is participating alright, participating in making this team worse not better. I hope Castellini throws this schmuck out the door. :thumbup:


Oh I think DanO's done for sure but not for even 1 second do I believe any trades are not going thru the owners approval. Would You Buy a 200 million project and then just say go ahead buddy use you own personal vision. Hell No, so do not just think this is all on Dano.

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:12 PM
I think I'm going to call a "shenanigans" on this trade.

That means the deal is null and void, right?

I do have that power, right?

RIGHT???!!??

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 09:14 PM
Actually he makes 2 mill per year and Dan O pays him 1.1 mill. 1.1 mill for a bench rider.utility player blows in my opinion. :bang: Again, what the heck do we need with this guy if we are trying to sign Aurilla and have Freel?? I gotta believe we could come up with a darn better utility player for less money or even the same. O Brien blows my mind. I think he does things to make himself look like he is participating. Well he is participating alright, participating in making this team worse not better. I hope Castellini throws this schmuck out the door. :thumbup:

Yep. The Reds just threw away two prospect resources in order to pay a guy 1.1M the year after he was one of the worst players in baseball and who projects a ceiling of replacement level at best.

I'm getting awfully tired of watching the Reds pay players to hurt the team.

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:16 PM
I'm getting awfully tired of watching the Reds pay players to hurt the team.


If he's interested, DanO can pay me five bucks and I'll come kick him his (knee).

Be about the same.

Willy
12-08-2005, 09:17 PM
I long for Dan0: The Early Years, when he didn't do a dang thing. :bang:

LOL

I was thinking the same thing.

reds44
12-08-2005, 09:20 PM
Hmn...where have I heard something like that before...??

Oh yeah...



Might as well be using a template.

Wow. You pulled that one out of youtr butt. Im impressed. Excuse me for being wrong once. Plus we actually lost money getting Milton, we made 7 mil. getting Williams.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 09:30 PM
I thought I would bring out some of my scouting notes on Womack. Granted these are from 2004, Womack's career year. I just thought I would share for some fun.

In 2004 I scouted the NL central exclusively for the end of May and all of June. (Living in Cincinnati keeps the expense report down although I do travel quite a bit. )

I saw Tony Womack play in 26 games between May 21 and June 30th. Tony played in 36 games total in that span. Inter- League series were also played in that time frame. I was able to see the Cardinals play the Rangers that year as well. Drese threw a great game 2 in that series. 7IP 4H 2R 1ER 1BB 3SO 1HR (Anderson)

In those 26 games I worked, Womack hit .333 (37-111) and walked 8 times. So I looked into the games that I did not see and found that he was on par with what I saw. He hit .343 against the NL Central from May 21 to June 30th. Marlon Andersen filled in for Womack at 2B on days he did not play.

The Cardinals only played the Reds once during that span. Womack was 5 for 13 in that series. From my notes I see that he was still "turning" on 93-95 MPH. Aggressive on fastballs and did "fish for down and in breaking balls". Hard sliders down and in 0-1, 1-1 would result in a fould ball or a swing and miss if preceded by a first pitch fastball. EVERY time.

Most teams attacked Womack high in the zone. His weakest zone by far. Tony was 3-11 when swinging at a first pitch fastball. 0 for 6 lettes and above. Low and away was not a weakness as several teams tried to go "soft away" where Tony hit them hard. On two occasions he was thrown changeups away with a 2-2 count in successive AB's and promptly slapped those pitches in the 5.5 hole for a base hit. In the next 10 games I saw him this was not attempted again.

Renteria often hit behind Womack but the Cardinals were more dangerous when Lankford hit second. Womack's time to first varied from 3.77 to 3.89. Every steal attempt was within the first 3 pitches. Womack was picked off by LaRue in the second game of their series with a phenomal throw to end the 1st inning. In that same game Phil Norton gave up a two run single to Jason Isringhausen after the Reds Intentionally Walked Womack. Rolen eventually tripled and ended Norton's disatrous evening. 0.2IP 3H 5R 5ER 3BB

Womack's arm was below average and range was still rated as good. Bag footwork was "behind a step" on occasion but I felt he was trying to get to the back of the bag to make the sure out due to his absence of arm strength. Recovering from Tommy John. He had a full step more range to his left than his right. Typical glove hand confidence. Anyhting hit up the middle was subject. If he did glove it a hard throw was nearly impossible. Runners should check his positioning to determine if he could make a timely throw to the bag once going to his left. His weak arm could leave Renteria hang out to dry enabling the runner to break up a potential DP. Tony had excellent range on all pop flies. Once again, with a weak arm runners should check their distance.

Just some notes. I have a binder full of detailed info and it would take HOURS to put even a third of that on here but I just wanted to share a little bit.

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:33 PM
I have a binder full of detailed info and it would take HOURS to put even a third of that on here but I just wanted to share a little bit.



If you've got binders, you're at LEAST as qualified as DanO to run a major league team.

CincyRedsFan30
12-08-2005, 09:36 PM
Just some notes. I have a binder full of detailed info and it would take HOURS to put even a third of that on here but I just wanted to share a little bit.

I guess Dan O'Brien does read this board. ;)

Seriously, good work, but we really can't count on anything out of Womack. Even if he is getting further removed from surgery. He simply wasn't good even before the surgery.

How scary is it that Christian Guzman's OPS was slightly better than Womack's? And that was with Guzman playing half his games in Washington. Womack was truly awful and in a league made for hitting no less.

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:37 PM
Seriously, interesting information, but I don't think


Neither does DanO.

:evil:

RedsIn07
12-08-2005, 09:38 PM
DanO and Cashman quotes highlighted concerning the trade:
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/baseball/13362601.htm

Yankees ship Tony Womack to CincinnatiMIKE FITZPATRICK

Associated Press


DALLAS - The best Brian Cashman and the New York Yankees could do at the winter meetings was to unload Tony Womack and add lefty specialist Mike Myers to the bullpen. That wasn't bad as far as their general manager was concerned.

"I wasn't optimistic coming into it," Cashman said Thursday before heading back to New York. "It's a weak free-agent market."

After trading Womack to Cincinnati for a pair of 24-year-old prospects, the Yankees were still looking for a starting center fielder. Johnny Damon is available and New York talked to his agent, Scott Boras. But Boras is seeking a seven-year contract in the neighborhood of $84 million.

The Yankees also would like to bring back longtime star Bernie Williams for one more year in a reserve role. The team offered him salary arbitration Wednesday, giving the sides another month to work out a possible deal. Williams has until Dec. 19 to accept arbitration, but he and the Yankees likely have an understanding that he will decline.

Myers agreed to a two-year contract worth $2.4 million, he said in a phone interview Thursday. The deal is pending a physical, which he expects to take in the next five or six days.

"The Yankees were one of my targeted teams this winter," Myers said. "Just knowing a couple of the other guys, I don't think it will be hard to fit in there. ... I'm excited."

The 36-year-old lefty went 3-1 with a 3.13 ERA in 65 games for Boston last season. Used mainly against left-handed hitters, he pitched only 37 1-3 innings.

"You don't win unless you have the seventh and eighth inning covered with someone outside of your closer," Myers said. "It's nice to see middle relievers get their due."

The Yankees shipped Womack to the Reds for infielder Kevin Howard and outfielder Ben Himes, getting rid of the second baseman-turned-outfielder just one season after signing him. New York also will send $900,000 to the Reds to offset part of Womack's $2 million salary next season.

"We'll try to take that extra million-one and spend it wisely in the free-agent market," Cashman said. "I'm satisfied that the move we made today is the right move for us."

Womack hit .307 to help St. Louis win the NL pennant in 2004, then became a free agent and agreed to a $4 million, two-year contract with the Yankees last December.

He was their starting second baseman for the first month of the season, but slumped badly and lost his job when they brought up rookie Robinson Cano. Womack was shifted to left field on May 3, then wound up sitting on the bench for long stretches.

"We are delighted to have him," Reds general manager Dan O'Brien said. "I think he feels, too, it'll be a much better fit."

Womack played 24 games at second, 40 in left, 22 in center and four in right for New York. O'Brien said the Reds plan to use him all over the field, too, and in a variety of roles.

"We just felt he was more of a prototypical National League type of player. Our lineup needed an additional speed component," O'Brien said. "I know he's in outstanding shape. I wouldn't sell him short on what he's capable of accomplishing this year."

Womack batted just .249 with 15 RBIs, 27 steals and only nine extra-base hits last season. He didn't get an at-bat during New York's five-game loss to the Los Angeles Angels in the first round of the playoffs.

Howard hit .296 with 70 RBIs for Double-A Chattanooga last season and led the Arizona Fall League with a .409 batting average.

"Some upside there," Cashman said.

Himes had a combined .300 batting average for Class-A Sarasota and Dayton

Caseyfan21
12-08-2005, 09:40 PM
If you've got binders, you're at LEAST as qualified as DanO to run a major league team.

More than qualified. I'd say this board could get two or three of the most experienced/qualified people who have no binders and do better than DanO.

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:42 PM
I can't believe I'm going to type this.

For the same money, I'd rather have Juan Castro.

Where's Gookie Dawkins when you need him? I say we go with the ALL SCRAPPY TEAM~!

CincyRedsFan30
12-08-2005, 09:44 PM
Neither does DanO.

:evil:

That was funny. :laugh:

You got me before I could edit. Darn it.

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 09:45 PM
Wow. You pulled that one out of youtr butt. Im impressed. Excuse me for being wrong once. Plus we actually lost money getting Milton, we made 7 mil. getting Williams.

Actually, I pulled that out of the advanced search function. You've consistently (and inappropriately) chastized folks for having takes on things that make sense, but that don't quite mesh with the world in which you live. Butts have nothing to do with it.

The Reds lost a player (Casey) and the associated performance resource (OBP) to acquire Williams. The Reds also paid 1M of Casey's contract, meaning that the cost savings was 6M rather than 7M.

But money is only good if you spend it and spend it well. The first thing the Reds did was take 1.1M of that money AND two prospect resources and dumped them on Tony Womack.

That leaves about 5M bucks lying around and, at best, the team is in the same shape as before the trades. At minimum, if Womack plays AND Dave Williams produces similar results as last season, they're going to cancel each other out. At worst, Williams gets his comeuppance and regresses to the point at which he should have finished 2005 (5.00+ ERA). If that happens (and there's an exceptionally high probability, BTW), you're looking at a Run Differential loss for the Reds in 2006- all for the sake of saving five million bucks. All that's happening right now is a Run Differential/Cash shellgame where one resource is being traded for another with the best possible result being that the team gets no better on the field and has a great chance of actually getting worse.

Now, here's what you need to do...

Go out and ask 10 Reds fans the following question:


"Would you prefer that the Reds be better and five million dollars more expensive or worse and five million dollars less expensive?"

I think you'll get a good take on how many fans actually give a crap about five million dollars.

KronoRed
12-08-2005, 09:45 PM
Howard will out play Womack in 06

CincyRedsFan30
12-08-2005, 09:45 PM
"I wouldn't sell him short on what he's capable of accomplishing this year."

So you're going to admit soon that he isn't a good player?

Disturbing:

Womack had 26.5 Runs Created last year covering 329 AB.

The "disappointing" (to some, particularly HOF announcers) EdE had 27.1 Runs Created in 211 AB.

If Marty thought EdE was bad then what will he say about Womack? Oh, right, he brings a lot of intangibles to the table.

CincyRedsFan30
12-08-2005, 09:47 PM
Howard will out play Womack in 06

But will Howard play the game the right way both on and off the field?

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:48 PM
Howard will out play Womack in 06


Heck Krono, you'll probably out play Womack in 06.

You're scrappier then he is (but not as scrappy as I am. One of my 6 Nobel Prizes is for "Scrappiness")

swityak11
12-08-2005, 09:48 PM
i think if womack plays full time he will be productive, and will provide the speed we need at the top of the lineup. it will also allow felo to bat 2nd where he is more suited.Wait. You want someone with a .287 OBP not only playing fulltime but batting leadoff? I can't possibly think of a worse idea.

He was the worst hitting position player in the majors last year. Cristian Guzman OPS'd .020 pooints higher than him. I hate this trade. A lot. I just can't comprehend not giving the fulltime starting 2B job to Freel. He has a .375 OBP for a reason.

Topcat
12-08-2005, 09:50 PM
I thought I would bring out some of my scouting notes on Womack. Granted these are from 2004, Womack's career year. I just thought I would share for some fun.

In 2004 I scouted the NL central exclusively for the end of May and all of June. (Living in Cincinnati keeps the expense report down although I do travel quite a bit. )

I saw Tony Womack play in 26 games between May 21 and June 30th. Tony played in 36 games total in that span. Inter- League series were also played in that time frame. I was able to see the Cardinals play the Rangers that year as well. Drese threw a great game 2 in that series. 7IP 4H 2R 1ER 1BB 3SO 1HR (Anderson)

In those 26 games I worked, Womack hit .333 (37-111) and walked 8 times. So I looked into the games that I did not see and found that he was on par with what I saw. He hit .343 against the NL Central from May 21 to June 30th. Marlon Andersen filled in for Womack at 2B on days he did not play.

The Cardinals only played the Reds once during that span. Womack was 5 for 13 in that series. From my notes I see that he was still "turning" on 93-95 MPH. Aggressive on fastballs and did "fish for down and in breaking balls". Hard sliders down and in 0-1, 1-1 would result in a fould ball or a swing and miss if preceded by a first pitch fastball. EVERY time.

Most teams attacked Womack high in the zone. His weakest zone by far. Tony was 3-11 when swinging at a first pitch fastball. 0 for 6 lettes and above. Low and away was not a weakness as several teams tried to go "soft away" where Tony hit them hard. On two occasions he was thrown changeups away with a 2-2 count in successive AB's and promptly slapped those pitches in the 5.5 hole for a base hit. In the next 10 games I saw him this was not attempted again.

Renteria often hit behind Womack but the Cardinals were more dangerous when Lankford hit second. Womack's time to first varied from 3.77 to 3.89. Every steal attempt was within the first 3 pitches. Womack was picked off by LaRue in the second game of their series with a phenomal throw to end the 1st inning. In that same game Phil Norton gave up a two run single to Jason Isringhausen after the Reds Intentionally Walked Womack. Rolen eventually tripled and ended Norton's disatrous evening. 0.2IP 3H 5R 5ER 3BB

Womack's arm was below average and range was still rated as good. Bag footwork was "behind a step" on occasion but I felt he was trying to get to the back of the bag to make the sure out due to his absence of arm strength. Recovering from Tommy John. He had a full step more range to his left than his right. Typical glove hand confidence. Anyhting hit up the middle was subject. If he did glove it a hard throw was nearly impossible. Runners should check his positioning to determine if he could make a timely throw to the bag once going to his left. His weak arm could leave Renteria hang out to dry enabling the runner to break up a potential DP. Tony had excellent range on all pop flies. Once again, with a weak arm runners should check their distance.

Just some notes. I have a binder full of detailed info and it would take HOURS to put even a third of that on here but I just wanted to share a little bit.


Yet again TC thankyou for your perspective. I truly feel that this deal was not that bad. Then again I am viewing it as a 1 year commitment or less.

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:50 PM
But will Howard play the game the right way both on and off the field?


Maybe Womack is being brought in to be the team's new DH.

Designated Hugger.

*rim shot*

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 09:53 PM
"We just felt he was more of a prototypical National League type of player. Our lineup needed an additional speed component," O'Brien said.

Another in a long line of truly stupid comments passing through the lips of Dan O'Brien. Baseball is freakin' BASEBALL. Good God, does Dan O'Brien actually think that Tony Womack stunk last year because he couldn't play baseball the "American League" way???

Anyone else read that any other way that "Tony Womack will be our starting Second Baseman and will occupy one of the top two slots in the lineup on a daily basis"? O'Brien isn't talking about the bench. He's talking about the lineup.

westofyou
12-08-2005, 09:53 PM
Womack makes an out 71% of the time he comes to bat, he's Glenn Beckert in a hitters era.

traderumor
12-08-2005, 09:54 PM
"We just felt he was more of a prototypical National League type of player. Our lineup needed an additional speed component," O'Brien said. "I know he's in outstanding shape. I wouldn't sell him short on what he's capable of accomplishing this year."There it is, suddenly it all comes together. Casey = slow = gone
Womack = speed component=making plays closer at first as he makes an out 3 out of 4 times=stolen base the one time a game he gets on base

Go Go Mojo DanO
Go Go Mojo DanO

Raisor
12-08-2005, 09:55 PM
. He's talking about the lineup.


Tony Womack will get 600 PA's in 2006.

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 09:56 PM
Tony Womack will get 600 PA's in 2006.

Well, looks like I finally try out a Hacking Mass team for 2006.

CincyRedsFan30
12-08-2005, 09:57 PM
Womack will get thrown out about 75 percent of the time, but he'll sure run hard in the process.

He's a "pro's pro." Running hard and getting out is part of the process of playing the game the right way. Everyone knows you get an 'A' for effort!

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 09:57 PM
I guess Dan O'Brien does read this board. ;)

Seriously, good work, but we really can't count on anything out of Womack. Even if he is getting further removed from surgery. He simply wasn't good even before the surgery.

How scary is it that Christian Guzman's OPS was slightly better than Womack's? And that was with Guzman playing half his games in Washington. Womack was truly awful and in a league made for hitting no less.

Excellent point. Can't argue against those numbers. I wish Dan did read this board. Then maybe he could actually have some conversation topics while being made fun of at the GM and Winter meetings.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 10:00 PM
Womack will get thrown out about 75 percent of the time, but he'll sure run hard in the process.

He's a "pro's pro." Running hard and getting out is part of the process of playing the game the right way. Everyone knows you get an 'A' for effort!


Sabo used to run until he was out. I always liked that!! LOL!:laugh:

CincyRedsFan30
12-08-2005, 10:01 PM
I wish O'Brien read this board too.

If he did, we might actually have a decent team right now.

I wish one of the Reds' beat guys would be bold enough to ask O'Brien if he understands that Womack had a terrible OBP/OPS, etc. last year and that those things correlate to Runs Scored. I would be interested in his response.

SteelSD
12-08-2005, 10:03 PM
Excellent point. Can't argue against those numbers. I wish Dan did read this board. Then maybe he could actually have some conversation topics while being made fun of at the GM and Winter meetings.

It's easy for a GM to be made fun of when he's running around the Winter meetings with the words "Bigger Fool" written on his forehead in red sharpie marker.;)

Raisor
12-08-2005, 10:05 PM
Any minute now we'll hear that DanO is bringing Tony Batista back home from Japan.

I can just feel it. The Batista/Womack attack!!!

Aronchis
12-08-2005, 10:14 PM
DanO's a tools guy, people can babble over OBP this OBP that, for example, it won't phase men like Bowden or O'brien.

To him, Womack is a decent player because he is fast and a good team guy which the Reds need with all the thump in the lineup, keeping things "real".

Look at DanO's high draft picks? Wood, Bailey, BJ and Bruce. Players selected because of tools over production.

That is why I can see him overpaying a pitcher like Weaver if allowed, tools baby.

Last year, DanO got caught looking for the tools in the FA market but lost Clement and went for a minus stuff lefty that "used" to have a good heater(tools). He traded for a aging, past his prime pitcher in Ortiz who once had good "tools" during the early 2000's. DanO is always looking for that little move, of "undervalued" players, but he is always looking at the tools, which got him last year because they were declining, which his braintrust of advisors and scouts seemed to miss.

This year, he is at it again with the Womack deal. I don't know what type of GM Cast will bring in, but hopefully one that is more "modern" than O'brien or Bowden, who represent the "ancient" thoughts besides being poor GM's.

MWM
12-08-2005, 10:15 PM
What's Neifi Perez's availability? Id Rey Ordonex busy next season?

reds44
12-08-2005, 10:24 PM
Oh my God, Dan'O makes it sound like WOmack is going to be in the everyday lineup.

My thoughts on this trade have changed alot now.

Reds Nd2
12-08-2005, 10:27 PM
"We are delighted to have him," Reds general manager Dan O'Brien said. "I think he feels, too, it'll be a much better fit."

Speaking of better fits and feeling it too, any one of my girlfriends could do a better job picking major league talent using the "he's got a nice ass" metric than Dano could ever hope to do with his binder.

Team Clark
12-08-2005, 10:29 PM
Speaking of better fits and feeling it too, any one of my girlfriends could do a better job picking major league talent using the "he's got a nice ass" metric than Dano could ever hope to do with his binder.

I need to start including that in my reports!!!!!!!!!!

I hope you don't mind... I want to use that quote in my signature!!

RFS62
12-08-2005, 10:31 PM
Oh my God, Dan'O makes it sound like WOmack is going to be in the everyday lineup.




How is anyone surprised at this?

RANDY IN INDY
12-08-2005, 10:36 PM
Here's an interesting bit of trivia. Womack's son plays in my son's coach pitch league here in the Charlotte area. Saw him once this fall watching one of the games.

Reds Nd2
12-08-2005, 10:54 PM
I need to start including that in my reports!!!!!!!!!!

I hope you don't mind... I want to use that quote in my signature!!

No problem. It's the first comment I've made thats ended up as a sig. I won't even charge you rep points for it. Of course, if you end up making money as a professional scout, that comment is copyrighted and it will cost ya'. LOL

KronoRed
12-08-2005, 10:58 PM
Heck Krono, you'll probably out play Womack in 06.

You're scrappier then he is (but not as scrappy as I am. One of my 6 Nobel Prizes is for "Scrappiness")
Thanks Coach..I appreciate the comment :D

traderumor
12-08-2005, 11:00 PM
Speaking of better fits and feeling it too, any one of my girlfriends could do a better job picking major league talent using the "he's got a nice ass" metric than Dano could ever hope to do with his binder.Dude, with that wit, no wonder you have multiple girlfriends

http://www.tuli.co.za/images/Imported%20Stud%20bull%20Yampa%20P6.jpg

Topcat
12-08-2005, 11:06 PM
Womack makes an out 71% of the time he comes to bat, he's Glenn Beckert in a hitters era.

Woy if he is the backup of and pt 2nd baseman then im happy but Womacks not a bad investment for 1.1 million for 1 year and as specualted by others if it leads to compensation for Aurillia would you feel as though this was a good move ?

Reds4Life
12-08-2005, 11:44 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=859415&postcount=414

Narron "sees him playing a great deal". More evidence that "baseball guy" Jerry Narron needs to be included in the soon to be fired group.

ochre
12-08-2005, 11:51 PM
Woy if he is the backup of and pt 2nd baseman then im happy but Womacks not a bad investment for 1.1 million for 1 year and as specualted by others if it leads to compensation for Aurillia would you feel as though this was a good move ?
Why? He doesn't project to be any more valuable than the player that was traded for him. He costs the Reds 3 times as much. The Yankees were happy to be saving the 1.1 million. The Yankees. 1.1 million. read that again. The yankees are happy to be saving .5% of their salary if it means being rid of Womack.

Superdude
12-09-2005, 12:56 AM
If Womack starts over Freel I'm going to cry. Just trading for this guy is horrible enough!

Himes was one of my sleepers for next year too. He's 6'5" 210lbs and put up very good numbers in a league that killed every good hitting prospect we had.

SteelSD
12-09-2005, 02:05 AM
Woy if he is the backup of and pt 2nd baseman then im happy but Womacks not a bad investment for 1.1 million for 1 year and as specualted by others if it leads to compensation for Aurillia would you feel as though this was a good move ?

Of the 51 players who donned a New York Yankees uniform in 2005, Tony Womack was worth the worst. He'd have been the worst player on just about every team in the Show in 2005. In fact, fewer than 1% of the 1,329 players who put on MLB uniforms in 2005 were worse than Tony Womack.

Give Tony Womack 600 PA in 2005, and there's very little doubt in my mind that he, Eric Milton, and Jose Lima would have been fighting tooth-and-nail for the title of "Worst Player in Major League Baseball".

Now, tell me...why do you feel that paying 1.1 Million for that is acceptable?

In 2005, Womack posted 351 Plate Appearances. That's platoon or "backup" level PA for a guy. And he still stunk up the joint so badly that he was one of the 1% most-lethal-to-his-team players in all of Major League Baseball. The very idea that they'd sign Womack and then not play him is ludicrous considering what we've seen from O'Brien.

The guy makes Rich Aurilia look like a FANTASTICAL option. But I'll tell you- when your front office makes Rich Aurilia look like a real gem, your front office has a real issue. Hmn...2M for Rich Aurilia? Stupid. 1.1M for Tony Womack? Mental retardation.

Right now we're seeing a GM doing stupid enough things that his other dumb things seem less dumb by comparison. Any way you slice it, that's a plan of idiocy.

michst
12-09-2005, 08:35 AM
Isn't this really a who cares trade? 1.1 M and the prospects really isn't that much to lose in the grand scheme of things. At worst he sucks and Bergolla or Freel get to start. At best he plays decent and we turn him around for better prospects than we gave up.

I know 1.1M is a lot, but thats pretty much the going rate for a veteran utility infielder. He's not breaking the bank and the players he may be taking time away also have issues. I doubt this 1.1M will stop us from getting Roger Clemens (joke). He had a good season 1 year ago, had a bad wrist and now lets hope hes healthy and has a decent year.

Its sort of like the Aurilla thing. People complain so much about him, but fact was he was an asset to the Reds. He would have been on almost every teams 25 man roster. He didn't make that much money. Sure I wish he was better, but he was better than what we got. Womach/Aurillia are the least of our worries.

RFS62
12-09-2005, 08:56 AM
Isn't this really a who cares trade? 1.1 M and the prospects really isn't that much to lose in the grand scheme of things. At worst he sucks and Bergolla or Freel get to start. At best he plays decent and we turn him around for better prospects than we gave up.

I know 1.1M is a lot, but thats pretty much the going rate for a veteran utility infielder. He's not breaking the bank and the players he may be taking time away also have issues. I doubt this 1.1M will stop us from getting Roger Clemens (joke). He had a good season 1 year ago, had a bad wrist and now lets hope hes healthy and has a decent year.

Its sort of like the Aurilla thing. People complain so much about him, but fact was he was an asset to the Reds. He would have been on almost every teams 25 man roster. He didn't make that much money. Sure I wish he was better, but he was better than what we got. Womach/Aurillia are the least of our worries.



It's not Womack that bothers me about this. It's how I am afraid he'll be used. We're already hearing all the spin from Narron and DanO about his "veteran presence" and "knows how to play the game".

I believe he's pencilled in as the starting secondbaseman. And that makes my head hurt.

It took an injury to get Aurillia out of the lineup last year and Lopez in. Even though Rich was stinking up the joint, it took an injury to get him out and if Lopez hadn't played himself onto the all star team, I don't doubt that Aurillia would have been handed the job right back when he got off the DL.

I have the same sinking feeling about how the Reds see Womack as I did last year with Aurillia. When he was signed, I thought it was fine, a veteran backup. I never dreamed we'd plug him in there everyday at Lopez expense. This sounds like more of the same to me.

flyer85
12-09-2005, 09:11 AM
At worst he sucks and Bergolla or Freel get to start.Nope ... at worst he sucks and still gets 100+ starts on the season.

remdog
12-09-2005, 09:20 AM
By RFS62: "I have the same sinking feeling about how the Reds see Womack as I did last year with Aurillia. When he was signed, I thought it was fine, a veteran backup. I never dreamed we'd plug him in there everyday at Lopez expense. This sounds like more of the same to me."

True. And I had the same feelings about Aurillia. The major difference is that we don't currently have a possible breakout player in the organization at 2nd base.

It's clear that the Reds are looking at Womack as the starter at 2nd. That's a move that I truly dislike----Tony was a 'bad' player even when he was 'good' and he's no longer 'good'. But the '06 version of the Reds is not going to win the division nor is it likely to even contend for the WC. Womack will serve out his year and then be paroled into retirement. Hopefully by then, Bergolla will have gotten more seasoning and grown into a MLB level player.

I liked the Casey trade, I dislike the Womack trade. Just my opinion.

Rem

wheels
12-09-2005, 09:21 AM
I'll betcha Cashman is laughing his arse off right now.

I guess having three guys in the lineup with plus speed (Freel, Lopez, Encarnacion) wasn't enough.

That, or DanO thinks they get on base too much.

Gotta even that stuff out.

traderumor
12-09-2005, 09:57 AM
Isn't this really a who cares trade? 1.1 M and the prospects really isn't that much to lose in the grand scheme of things. At worst he sucks and Bergolla or Freel get to start. At best he plays decent and we turn him around for better prospects than we gave up.

I know 1.1M is a lot, but thats pretty much the going rate for a veteran utility infielder. He's not breaking the bank and the players he may be taking time away also have issues. I doubt this 1.1M will stop us from getting Roger Clemens (joke). He had a good season 1 year ago, had a bad wrist and now lets hope hes healthy and has a decent year.

Its sort of like the Aurilla thing. People complain so much about him, but fact was he was an asset to the Reds. He would have been on almost every teams 25 man roster. He didn't make that much money. Sure I wish he was better, but he was better than what we got. Womach/Aurillia are the least of our worries.


Regardless of the money, pursuing a player like Womack and giving up anything for him just shows how flawed DanO's evaluation process is. Womack is the kind of guy you sign to a minimum deal after the Yankees cut him, not give up two prospects for, even if they're suspects. Why give up anything for a player that is likely to be available this spring with no line of other teams for his services? And if for some unknown reason the Yankees kept him, so what? This is like trying to figure out why a 7 footer can't even make a layup. The stupidity that O'Brien is exhibiting is beyond comprehension.

puca
12-09-2005, 09:59 AM
Problem is he will keep his job if he hits .270 with an OBP of .290. In fact O'Brien and (apparently) Narron will problaby believe he is an asset as a lead off hitter.

BRM
12-09-2005, 10:00 AM
Steel, you are wasting your time educating everyone about how bad Woe-mack's 2005 season was. It appears the supporters of the trade are banking on a return to his 2004 form, his career year.

I guess we can reasonably expect Dunn and Griffey's RBI numbers to drop with Woe-mack hitting in front of them all year.

traderumor
12-09-2005, 10:03 AM
And the scariest part is that DanO thinks he has helped the Reds get better in the winter meetings. Even John Fay doesn't think that after this week of "wheeling and dealing."

This is as frustrating as every Bengals' offseason B.M., when all you could do was sit back and watch the train wreck of decision making year after year, wondering why the folks making the decisions ever got into position to make the decisions.

Funny how in both examples the answer is nepotism, the worst business succession plan known to man.

Reverend Doo-Rag
12-09-2005, 02:05 PM
Me, I like Dooley Womack. If it doesn't work out we can trade him to the Pilots for Jim Bouton.

flyer85
12-09-2005, 02:22 PM
And the scariest part is that DanO thinks he has helped the Reds get better in the winter meetings. Even John Fay doesn't think that after this week of "wheeling and dealing."

This is as frustrating as every Bengals' offseason B.M., when all you could do was sit back and watch the train wreck of decision making year after year, wondering why the folks making the decisions ever got into position to make the decisions.... and the patience is amazing. People who have no clue how to do there job are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to run an organization into the ground and then they get paid even more to just go away.

flyer85
12-09-2005, 02:24 PM
I'll betcha Cashman is laughing his arse off right now.... first time he's actually dumped salary on somebody else. Probably never realized how good it feels to stick another team with a bad baseball player while getting them to pick up the majority of the tab.

registerthis
12-09-2005, 02:55 PM
There's simply no excuse or satisfactory explanation which can be offered for the Reds acquiring Womack.

None.

And, you know, if O'brien and the Reds had a history of drafting wisely and making solid free agent pickups during the offseason, I don't think much would have been said about this deal--a collective yaawwnnnn is what I would guess. But, beyond the fact that Womack is among THE worst players in the league, and was in fact so bad the Yankees, of all teams, wanted to purge themselves of his salary, lies the idea that this move is simply another indication that the Reds FO doesn't have a clue what they're doing. It's the sympton of a much larger issue. And that, I believe, is what is largely responsible for drawing the vitriolic reactions we have seen on this board.

It's the thought that "DanO thinks this is a good move that will help the team" that has everyone filling their posts with :bang: symbols.

buckshotrod
12-09-2005, 09:51 PM
Well being the diehard Reds fan I am and beings that this idiot GM we have has already made the deal, I hope like hell TeamClarks scouting perspective is correct and DanO has a vision none of the rest of us do..:confused:

However, I would love to see OB's crystal ball. My guess it is foggy as hell in there. :help:

Cmon Tony!!!!!!! We are pullin for ya!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:

flyer85
12-09-2005, 10:22 PM
DanO has a vision none of the rest of us do.there is ample evidence DanO has lot of visions that no one else has.

shredda2000
12-10-2005, 12:19 AM
There's simply no excuse or satisfactory explanation which can be offered for the Reds acquiring Womack.

None.



Let me try to pick DanO's twisted mind...so please stay with me here. I believe DanO trading for Womack was history repeating itself. Last year, Aurilia was acquired and slated as the Reds starting shortstop. This lit a fire under Lopez and the result, Lopez had an all-star year.

I believe DanO wants the same to happen with the Womack trade. Although, this trade can serve two purposes. First, it should light a fire under Bergolla and give him the drive to show he is much better than Womack ever was. As mentioned by another poster, I believe Bergolla will be the starting 2nd baseman by the All-Star break.

Secondly, the signing of Womack will really upset Aurilia...he will not accept arbitration and the Reds will receive a draft pick. If he does sign with the Reds, they will have a serviceable bat on the bench.

Of course, all of this will blow up in DanO's face and he will look like the usual Putz he is...:laugh:

djsauter
12-10-2005, 01:27 AM
Again, this doesn't make any sense at all.

We've just traded our future 2nd baseman (Howard) for an old guy who is going to be our leadoff hitter with a .280 OBP. Awesome!!

Why can this team not accept Freel as our 2nd baseman and leadoff hitter? Why not? What has he done wrong?

Why oh Why?

Raisor
12-10-2005, 01:23 PM
If this really does become Womack vs Freel....

In 2005, Freel was worth about 30 more runs then Womack, while collecting just 80 more Plate Appearances.