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Royals Fan
12-11-2005, 07:06 AM
Rotoworld has an article for the Houston paper about Brad Lidge being on the trade market with Adam Dunn mentioned as one of the canadiate that Lidge could be dealt for


Lidge deal likeliest if GM to leave mark


By JOHN P. LOPEZ
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

Finally free to stretch his offseason imagination, Astros general manager Tim Purpura is finding the winter stove so hot he should be wearing oven mitts.

After deciding against offering Roger Clemens arbitration, the Astros must do something big — for the sake of the team and as a signal to fans that they'll be doing more chasing of championships than resting on laurels in 2006.

It would seem they have done exactly that, entering into discussions with more than one club in hopes of bolstering the outfield with a significant offensive presence.

Just how significant is the question.

The Astros won't confirm such talks, but baseball scouts and executives love to toss out rumors and reports of these things as much as anyone. The trade possibility being mentioned that makes sense, would add punch to the lineup and could keep the Astros churning forward without crippling one part of the team to bolster another involves closer Brad Lidge.

Lidge clearly is the asset that would return the most on the market. The club has had discussions about acquiring Kevin Mench of the Texas Rangers, Juan Encarnacion of the Florida Marlins and Rondell White of the Detroit Tigers, but any offer involving Lidge might command a more significant return.

On the outside looking in for the majority of his first year on the job, Purpura suddenly finds himself with a great bargaining chip — and the toughest decision of his tenure as general manager.

He has the means and motivation to make something happen. How big a gamble is he willing to take?


Pondering the possibilities
Some potential acquisitions would make more sense than others.

Baltimore Orioles slugging shortstop Miguel Tejada, for example, has made it clear that he would like to be traded because he believes the Orioles are not committed to winning. You're thinking that a Lidge-Adam Everett package for Tejada would answer all your dreams.

But hold on. Just because a player says he wants to be traded doesn't mean the club will stumble all over itself trying to fulfill his wish. The Orioles have gone to great lengths to build the team around Tejada. They're not going to start over now.

And as nice a homecoming as it would be to deal for Cincinnati Reds slugger Adam Dunn, who lives in nearby Porter, the Reds for now have no intention of making that deal. Why would they, particularly after trading Sean Casey?

Manny Ramirez? Lots of talent, but an outrageous salary is only one headache Ramirez would bring with him from Boston, even to the Astros' congenial and low-maintenance clubhouse. Don't expect Ken Griffey Jr., either.

That sort of narrows the list of possibilities, doesn't it?

The Philadelphia Phillies just lost closer Billy Wagner to the New York Mets and have a superstar in Bobby Abreu (24 home runs, 102 RBIs last year) who would fit perfectly in the Astros' lineup.

It would be a tough call for Purpura to deal Lidge, who grew up with Purpura in a sense, rising from the minor leagues to a position smack in the middle of a National League pennant run. But as Astros manager Phil Garner has said, "If it doesn't hurt, then it's probably not a good deal."

The Astros strongly believe Chad Qualls and/or Dan Wheeler could fill the closer's role. If the Abreu deal does not materialize and the deal is for an outfielder a notch below Abreu — such as White — Qualls or Wheeler likely would be involved.

Either way, the club is going to lose some premium relief pitching. But that it can withstand. Starting pitching? Brandon Backe and Roy Oswalt are close to untouchable, given the Clemens decision.


The time is now
The 1-2-3 punch of Oswalt, Andy Pettitte and Backe isn't the Big Three of a year ago, of course, but the Astros like the chances of prospects Fernando Nieve and Jason Hirsh stepping into major-league roles.

Teams involved in talks with the Astros also have inquired about Chris Burke, Willy Taveras, Jason Lane, Everett and Backe. While none of those players is untouchable, Garner has made it clear each has a significant upside.

This is the winter of Purpura's professional life. He threw himself into the fire of the hot stove thanks to the decision on Clemens. How he emerges will set the course for 2006 and establish Purpura's most significant mark on the makeup of this team.

Purpura has watched, learned and been a part of the biggest two-year run in Astros history. The only way he appeases fans' hunger and helps the run continue is if he gets in the game.

Let's make a deal.

VI_RedsFan
12-11-2005, 07:55 AM
Sorry, but I don't like the idea of trading Dunn for a closer, even if its Lidge. If I trade Dunn, I trade him for a bonafide #1 or #2 SP, or maybe some prospects if the package is right.

Jpup
12-11-2005, 08:02 AM
Sorry, Lidge didn't make my list. ;)

Mark Prior
Johan Santana
Alex Rodriguez
Albert Pujols
Roy Oswalt
Dontrelle Willis
Jake Peavy(maybe)

That's it. That's the list.

Mario-Rijo
12-11-2005, 11:32 AM
Hey Jpup, you forgot Rich Harden!

pedro
12-11-2005, 04:12 PM
Trading Dunn for any reliever would be a bad idea.

WMR
12-11-2005, 04:14 PM
Just curious: What are their respective win-shares?

tts1stros
12-11-2005, 04:24 PM
Um....did you even read that article? Lopez said:


And as nice a homecoming as it would be to deal for Cincinnati Reds slugger Adam Dunn, who lives in nearby Porter, the Reds for now have no intention of making that deal. Why would they, particularly after trading Sean Casey?

That doesn't sound to me like he's saying Dunn was "mentioned as one of the canadiate that Lidge could be dealt for". Not in the least.

flyer85
12-11-2005, 05:27 PM
Trading Dunn for any reliever would be a bad idea.the definition of stupidity

RedsBaron
12-11-2005, 05:41 PM
the definition of stupidity
What scares me is that is DanO's M.O.

NewEraReds
12-11-2005, 05:44 PM
Sorry, but I don't like the idea of trading Dunn for a closer, even if its Lidge. If I trade Dunn, I trade him for a bonafide #1 or #2 SP, or maybe some prospects if the package is right.
agree 100%. closer would be the LAST!!!!!!!!! guy i would trade a dunn type player for. and why would houston do it. who do they have to take his place

tts1stros
12-11-2005, 06:13 PM
Wait a minute guys....no one said the Reds are even considering trading Dunn for a closer. Not in that article, not anywhere.

It's all in your imagination. Not happening. There's no reason to bash it because it was never suggested. (Why not bash "Dunn for Jose Canseco talk" while you're at it?)

NewEraReds
12-11-2005, 07:16 PM
Wait a minute guys....no one said the Reds are even considering trading Dunn for a closer. Not in that article, not anywhere.

It's all in your imagination. Not happening. There's no reason to bash it because it was never suggested. (Why not bash "Dunn for Jose Canseco talk" while you're at it?)
we arent bashing it. we are just saying you do not trade a guy like dunn for a closer. go back to your cow

Unassisted
12-11-2005, 07:32 PM
Wait a minute guys....no one said the Reds are even considering trading Dunn for a closer. Not in that article, not anywhere.

It's all in your imagination. Not happening. There's no reason to bash it because it was never suggested. (Why not bash "Dunn for Jose Canseco talk" while you're at it?)The reasons for the lack of reason are complicated.

I saw this article this morning and declined to post it since I knew it would get blown out of proportion here. The writer set up that trade as a straw man and proceeded to blow it over with his own argument.

First off, there are posters on this board who believe that the screwier a sportswriter believes a trade idea is, the more likely Reds GM Dan O'Brien is to like it. Trading Dunn for Lidge straight up would be pretty screwy, which makes it scary, too.

There's also an underlying fear that Dunn will eventually end up "going home" to Houston. Now that Casey "went home" to Pittsburgh last week, the notion of Dunn "going home" to Houston took on new life. Whether he's taken in the night by a Purpura ninja squad or handed a fat FA contract in a few years, it's a seemingly pathological fear that many posters here have. It surfaces almost reflexively in posts, as if there is no denying the inevitability of it.

Sometimes, I figure folks have their "So Long, Adam" posts sitting in Word documents on their computers ready to post.

Maybe the former UT quarterback who grew up outside Houston will triumphantly return there someday and those well-crafted tributes will see the light of day. It's hardly inevitable, and as for a December 2005 1-for-1 trade for Brad Lidge, as the sportswriter said... " it ain't happening."

tts1stros
12-11-2005, 08:01 PM
we arent bashing it. we are just saying you do not trade a guy like dunn for a closer. go back to your cow
I know...and I'm just saying no one SAID you trade a guy like Dunn for a closer.

tts1stros
12-11-2005, 08:11 PM
The reasons for the lack of reason are complicated.

First off, there are posters on this board who believe that the screwier a sportswriter believes a trade idea is, the more likely Reds GM Dan O'Brien is to like it. Trading Dunn for Lidge straight up would be pretty screwy, which makes it scary, too.
Yeah; in my brief time here, I see one theme that keeps coming up: when the Reds trade one of their 4 prized outfielders, their beloved GM is going to get something below market value.



There's also an underlying fear that Dunn will eventually end up "going home" to Houston. Now that Casey "went home" to Pittsburgh last week, the notion of Dunn "going home" to Houston took on new life. Whether he's taken in the night by a Purpura ninja squad or handed a fat FA contract in a few years, it's a seemingly pathological fear that many posters here have. It surfaces almost reflexively in posts, as if there is no denying the inevitability of it.
Hmm, ok, I suppose that has some validity. I suppose one player being traded to his hometown can spook people when their most valuable commodity has stated he'd like to play for his, too.

I still don't see how you can read that article and get from it that the Reds are considering trading Dunn for Lidge, but maybe it's just emotions running high on the topic of trading Dunn (doubly so when it's to Houston).

VI_RedsFan
12-11-2005, 08:27 PM
Anyone think the O's would do Dunn for Bedard, Penn, and maybe Markakis?

Strikes Out Looking
12-11-2005, 08:49 PM
As I have said before, once the Reds have five solid openers, they can then worry about a closer. Trading Dunn for Lidge is just a bad idea. Very few closers last more than 4-5 years while a solid hitter can last up to 10.

traderumor
12-11-2005, 10:24 PM
Um....did you even read that article? Lopez said:



That doesn't sound to me like he's saying Dunn was "mentioned as one of the canadiate that Lidge could be dealt for". Not in the least.Nor did I see any poster say he claimed that. They simply considered if they liked the idea of trading a young stud hitter for a young stud closer. The consensus seems to be no.

Jpup
12-11-2005, 10:43 PM
Anyone think the O's would do Dunn for Bedard, Penn, and maybe Markakis?

Baltimore wouldn't even do Bedard for Dunn, if you believe the rumors.

dougflynn23
12-11-2005, 11:03 PM
:) Here's my list of realistic players/packages I'd make for Adam Dunn

Anaheim : Ervin Santana and Brandon Wood
Atlanta : Kyle Davies and Brian McCann
Arizona : Conor Jackson or Carlos Quentin and Stephen Drew
Baltimore : Erik Bedard and Nick Markasis
Boston : Jon Papelbon and Jon Lester
Cleveland : Jeremy Sowers or Adam Miller and Ryan Garko
Chicago (AL) : Brandon McCarthy and Brian Anderson
Los Angeles : Chad Billingsley and Andy LaRoche or Russ Martin
New York (NL) : Lastings Milledge and Aaron Heilman
New York (AL) : Eric Duncan, Phillip Hughes, and Sean Henn (they're rich!)
Oakland : Daric Barton and Rich Harden
Pittsburgh : Zach Duke....straight up
Texas : Thomas Diamond and Ian Kinsler
Toronto : Roy Halladay and Orlando Hudson

That's about it.

corkedbat
12-12-2005, 09:36 AM
I've said before that any deal with the Astros would have to start with either Oswalt or Lidge. Even at that, while I might do Oswalt close to straight up, it would take more than just Lidge. Say, Burke, Nieves and another very good minor league starter - or maybe Backe and Lane - (with maybe one other player coming from us).

Don't think the Astros would buy that and I'm still not sure it would be worth it to deal Dunn either.

Red Leader
12-12-2005, 09:50 AM
dougflynn, you're pretty high on Zach Duke aren't you?

In a trade with Toronto it takes Hudson in addition to Halladay to get you to move Dunn, but you'll do Dunn for Duke straight up?

StillFunkyB
12-12-2005, 06:46 PM
What about that Hernandez kid from Seattle?

15fan
12-12-2005, 07:30 PM
Dunn for Lidge makes sense, if...

You're going to turn around and deal Lidge for a better haul than you'd get by dealing Dunn.

(Personally, I have little reason to believe that DanO's the guy to hatch such a scheme, let alone carry it out.)

I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again. Two years ago, my uncle did some freelance work for the Cards & MLB.com. He hung around the St. Loo clubhouse during the season, as well as the post-season. The general consensus among the Cards during the '04 playoffs was that Lidge had the sickest stuff of anyone in the NL. Anyone.

Now it's time to turn in a paper & take a final.

Ciao.

Jpup
12-13-2005, 02:30 AM
Dunn for Lidge makes sense, if...

You're going to turn around and deal Lidge for a better haul than you'd get by dealing Dunn.

(Personally, I have little reason to believe that DanO's the guy to hatch such a scheme, let alone carry it out.)

I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again. Two years ago, my uncle did some freelance work for the Cards & MLB.com. He hung around the St. Loo clubhouse during the season, as well as the post-season. The general consensus among the Cards during the '04 playoffs was that Lidge had the sickest stuff of anyone in the NL. Anyone.

Now it's time to turn in a paper & take a final.

Ciao.

I bet St. Louis wouldn't trade Pujols for him, not matter how "sick" his stuff is.

Speaking of "sick", I've had the head cold for days now, maybe I'll get over it by spring.

Topcat
12-13-2005, 03:42 AM
considering that marte and lester maybe enough to get lidge to bostoni I'd pass plus a closer isnt what you trade your 1 proven star for.

smashmode
12-13-2005, 09:46 PM
What about that Hernandez kid from Seattle?

Seattle honestly will give you a hell no.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 10:25 AM
Jpup... you arent seriously comparing Adam Dunn to Albert Pujols are you?

Jpup
12-14-2005, 10:54 AM
Jpup... you arent seriously comparing Adam Dunn to Albert Pujols are you?

What are you talking about? :bang:

Red Leader
12-14-2005, 11:20 AM
Jpup... you arent seriously comparing Adam Dunn to Albert Pujols are you?


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I don't know where this came from?

WVRed
12-14-2005, 11:38 AM
Jpup... you arent seriously comparing Adam Dunn to Albert Pujols are you?

Read it in context. The article he quoted said that the Cardinals said Lidge had the sickest stuff of anyone in the NL. Jpup said he bet the Cardinals wouldn't trade Albert Pujols for him. It was meant as sarcasm.

reds_bengals1
12-14-2005, 01:25 PM
Dunn is one of the key components to keep and build a team around. Trading him would be a huge mistake.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 05:56 PM
Trade him or lose him as a free agent. Thats Cinci's choice.

Dunn will not be a Red after he becomes a Free Agent.

westofyou
12-14-2005, 05:59 PM
Trade him or lose him as a free agent. Thats Cinci's choice.

Dunn will not be a Red after he becomes a Free Agent.Thanks Rasputian, but regardless he's theirs for 2 more years.

corkedbat
12-14-2005, 05:59 PM
Trade him or lose him as a free agent. Thats Cinci's choice.

Dunn will not be a Red after he becomes a Free Agent.

IF he becomes a Free Agent

KronoRed
12-14-2005, 06:00 PM
Somehow I don't think an ASTRO fan is a reliable source ;)

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 06:03 PM
Nor is a Red's fan a credible source using that math.

He will be a Free Agent or he will be traded and he will be a Houston Astro.

Pretty much everyone outside of Cinci knows this.

westofyou
12-14-2005, 06:05 PM
Astrobuddy you're getting all Viking on us eh?

Just gonna plunder and take what ya want.... who do you think we are?

Spec Richardson?

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 06:10 PM
Not at all.. I just know that Dunn wants to play in Houston and Houston wants him here. After 2007 the Astros will have tons of money to throw at him.

The Reds just cant match it.

Falls City Beer
12-14-2005, 06:32 PM
Not at all.. I just know that Dunn wants to play in Houston and Houston wants him here. After 2007 the Astros will have tons of money to throw at him.

The Reds just cant match it.

Be sure to move him to first.

Them gams are gonna go. And how.

KronoRed
12-14-2005, 06:48 PM
If he goes FA, then it will be about the Money first near home second..he'll go where the cash is with it being his first FA contract and the Astros won't be the only team offering it, expect the big market clubs to offer a LOT more.

Think he's different then any other baseball player? HA

;)

ochre
12-14-2005, 07:38 PM
Not at all.. I just know that Dunn wants to play in Houston and Houston wants him here. After 2007 the Astros will have tons of money to throw at him.

The Reds just cant match it.
Do you have anything else to add to the conversation, or are you just going to continue :deadhorse?

You've already shown a general lack of understanding in regards to the Free Agency rules as they apply to Dunn. Really not much point in you flaunting your "I'm from outside of Cincy" insider knowledge.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 10:03 PM
I was also man enought to admit that i was wrong in regards to Dunn's status.

Dunn is from the Houston area, thus a TON of his friends and relatives are here as well. They talk, other people talk, he lives here in the off season. Thats how I KNOW he wants to be with the Astros, NOT the Reds.

Houston is a big market team and when you take into consideration that Texas has NO state income tax and it is his home and the Astros are the team he grew up watching.

Houston can force any other team to WAY overpay to get him which hamstrings them in other areas. IN other words, the Reds cant afford to top Houstons offer and the other teams cant top it being his home.

I am not saying it is impossible for another team to sign him, but it will be very hard.

This is the reason the Reds cant trade him for what they want out of him. Teams know they will lose him.

Falls City Beer
12-14-2005, 10:10 PM
I was also man enought to admit that i was wrong in regards to Dunn's status.

Dunn is from the Houston area, thus a TON of his friends and relatives are here as well. They talk, other people talk, he lives here in the off season. Thats how I KNOW he wants to be with the Astros, NOT the Reds.

Houston is a big market team and when you take into consideration that Texas has NO state income tax and it is his home and the Astros are the team he grew up watching.

Houston can force any other team to WAY overpay to get him which hamstrings them in other areas. IN other words, the Reds cant afford to top Houstons offer and the other teams cant top it being his home.

I am not saying it is impossible for another team to sign him, but it will be very hard.

This is the reason the Reds cant trade him for what they want out of him. Teams know they will lose him.


He can still live in Houston for half of the year and suit up for the Yankees. Trust me, someone will outbid you for Dunn's services when the time comes--and he'll follow the money.

But you raise a good point: the Reds need to act on trading the guy sooner rather than later.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 10:22 PM
The Yankees dont have that kind of pull anymore. When was the last time they outbid anyone for a FA. The Yankees are just a place for overpaid veterans to go. The Mets, Red Sox and other big spenders are all spending too much now.

Houston in 2008 will no longer have Biggio, Bagwell or Clemens HUGE contracts and will have alot of money to spend. Drayton likes hometown hero types and will pay for it. It sells tickets.

Dunn wants to play in Houston. Houston only needs to be close to sign him. They will make him a very wealthy man for a very long time.

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2005, 10:33 PM
The Yankees dont have that kind of pull anymore. When was the last time they outbid anyone for a FA.

How about last year. They outbid everyone for Wright and Pavano. They gave Matsui an offer he couldn't refuse this off-season.

If the Yanks really want Dunn then when the time comes they will outbid everyone. This is the first off-season they haven't done it yet.

And yes they do have that knid of pull. Last season Randy Johnson pretty much forced Arizona to trade him to the Yanks.

Astrobuddy, do you just make this stuff as you go along? I remember you posting on the St.Louis boards. You said the same type of stuff. You were wrong then so I really don't find your guarantees very credible. Have you ever been right about anything?

vaticanplum
12-14-2005, 10:36 PM
The Yankees dont have that kind of pull anymore. When was the last time they outbid anyone for a FA.

'Bout less than a year ago. Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright.

There's really very little predicting what Adam Dunn himself will do when he is a free agent. Home base, money, and yes, even team loyalty and comfort all end up being factors. In my opinion, the only thing we can really speculate on is what choices the Reds' organization will make with him, or more accurately, where on the "horrendously bad" scale they will fall.

edit: Austin Kearns beat me to it (oh, if I had a nickel for every time I said that.)

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 10:56 PM
Kearns, if you remember me from the St Louis boards then you remember that I am right more often than I am wrong. Beltran is the only player move of note that I was wrong about.

If you guys consider Pavano and Wright BIGTIME Free Agents then I guess I have no answer. The Yankees threw stupid money at middle of the road pitchers who no one wanted bad enough to match the idiotic offer.

The Yankees dont get everyone they want anymore. They wanted Beltran, they couldnt keep Clemens or Pettitte, they cant get Wagner, Ryan, etc etc ... Steinbrenner has spent himself into a corner.

In order to get Dunn they will have to offer his $17 million per season to match what Houston will offer when all things are considered. If Houston wants him, no one will be able to match the offer.

Randy Johnson was able to force a trade to the Yankees because he had a no trade clause and the D-Backs were wanting to move his salary. That had nothing to do with Yankee power. Johnson is one of the reasons ole George wont be able to sign Dunn.

KronoRed
12-14-2005, 11:02 PM
Clemens is from Texas, talked a lot about playing near home, how many years was it before he did?

;)

vaticanplum
12-14-2005, 11:07 PM
Kearns, if you remember me from the St Louis boards then you remember that I am right more often than I am wrong. Beltran is the only player move of note that I was wrong about.

If you guys consider Pavano and Wright BIGTIME Free Agents then I guess I have no answer. The Yankees threw stupid money at middle of the road pitchers who no one wanted bad enough to match the idiotic offer.

The Yankees dont get everyone they want anymore. They wanted Beltran, they couldnt keep Clemens or Pettitte, they cant get Wagner, Ryan, etc etc ... Steinbrenner has spent himself into a corner.

In order to get Dunn they will have to offer his $17 million per season to match what Houston will offer when all things are considered. If Houston wants him, no one will be able to match the offer.

Randy Johnson was able to force a trade to the Yankees because he had a no trade clause and the D-Backs were wanting to move his salary. That had nothing to do with Yankee power. Johnson is one of the reasons ole George wont be able to sign Dunn.

Ok, this has nothing to do with Adam Dunn, but I take issue when people don't bother to get their facts straight. To say that no one else was interested in Pavano or Wright is absurd. In the next breath you say that they paid an "idiotic" amount for them. If no one else was interested in them, they wouldn't have had to pay a lot. Boston, among other teams, was pursuing both of them hard-core -- particularly Pavano, if I remember correctly. They both had a poor, injury-laden season this year, but this time a year ago, no one was calling them middle-of-the-road.

The Yankees stopped pursuing Beltran (not the other way around) because, believe it or not, they didn't want to spend any more money, not to mention the fact Omar Minaya gave him a very appealing offer right when Pedro Martinez, a pitcher of some note, was coming to play for the Mets.

Clemens wanted to play in Houston. Pettitte followed because the Yankees mucked it up with him, not because he wouldn't have wanted to play for New York if they had given him more respect and money. That was personal. There is no evidence that they tried to pursue Wagner or Ryan.

And just like Clemens wanted to play in Houston, Johnson wanted to play in New York. This is the last team of his career, and he wanted to end it in a place where he had a chance to win a World Series. Which, yes, the Yankees still have. They are hardly in the poorhouse yet.

I have no idea where Adam Dunn will end up. I hope he stays in Cincinnati, and I think he could. But, given the Yankees' aging outfield (and the large contracts that will be unloaded along with it), I have long feared that they will give him an offer he cannot refuse (I fear this, and I AM a Yankees fan). It is completely absurd to suggest that the Yankees could not get Adam Dunn if they wanted to, and that he'd have no interest in playing there because they're a washed-up, meaningless team.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:07 PM
Well, he wanted to come here and a deal was done in 1999 but Hunsicker pissed him off in a meeting and he was traded from Toronto to New York instead.

The other 2 times he was a FA Houston didnt have the money to get it done.

IN 2007 they will have the money.

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2005, 11:10 PM
Kearns, if you remember me from the St Louis boards then you remember that I am right more often than I am wrong. Beltran is the only player move of note that I was wrong about.

No, I actually remember you being wrong about everything. You made such predictions like Carlos Zambrano would be an awful pitcher.


If you guys consider Pavano and Wright BIGTIME Free Agents then I guess I have no answer. The Yankees threw stupid money at middle of the road pitchers who no one wanted bad enough to match the idiotic offer.

Well, Pavano was one of the top FA pitchers and came off a huge year. He was highly coveted. Wright is injury prone but was also highly marketable. Pitchers with an ERA in the low 3's are usually pretty valuable. Anyways, who even suggested that they were "BIGTIME" I don't recall that phrase being mentioned earlier.



The Yankees dont get everyone they want anymore. They wanted Beltran, they couldnt keep Clemens or Pettitte, they cant get Wagner, Ryan, etc etc ... Steinbrenner has spent himself into a corner.

Nobody can get everyone they want. It depends on if the player follows the money. Dunn strikes me as a guy who will take the big contract when he wants it. Whoever offers him the dough will get him.



Randy Johnson was able to force a trade to the Yankees because he had a no trade clause and the D-Backs were wanting to move his salary. That had nothing to do with Yankee power. Johnson is one of the reasons ole George wont be able to sign Dunn.

It had everything to do with Yankee power. They are known as constant winners and Johnson wanted to go to a place where he was sure he would contend for the WS. If you want to win and get big bucks the NY is still the way to go.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:17 PM
Dunn will have no interest in playing in NY because he isnt a NY kind of guy. The Yankees have NO shot at winning a WS anytime soon because they are OLD, have NO pitching and have WAAAY over spent.

If you get mad at people who dont have their facts straight, get mad at yourself.

1) Pettitte came 1st , not Clemens. Pettitte never had any intention of playing for NY and he was coming home, period. You are right, NY messed it , but it wasnt over money or respect. They couldnt match Houston's offer of a good contract and sleeping in his bed with his wife, playing golf with his friends and family. That matters.

2) Yes, the Yankees got out of the Beltran sweepstakes because they COULDNT AFFORD TO STAY IN IT.

3) Pavano and Wright are middle of the road pitchers. Both have had 1 each good seasons, NOT GREAT, just good. Just like Burnett this season... where are your beloved Yankees who can have who they want?? They need pitching as bad as anyone.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:21 PM
Kearns.. you got me. Thats the other thing I was wrong about. Zambrano has turned into a MONSTER. But like I said.. I am right more than wrong.

Dunn isnt a MONEY guy. Thats what I am trying to tell you. He will get paid and paid well. He isnt going to go just to the higher bidder. But even if he does, all things considered Houston's offer will beat them all.

You discount home WAAAY to much. When you can go home and still have as much a chance to go to the WS and make as much money why would you choose NY over Houston.

He wont.

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2005, 11:25 PM
Dunn will have no interest in playing in NY because he isnt a NY kind of guy. The Yankees have NO shot at winning a WS anytime soon because they are OLD, have NO pitching and have WAAAY over spent.

That's a completely baseless argument. How do you know he's not a "NY kind of guy". You simply made that up and there is no possible way to back that up.


If you get mad at people who dont have their facts straight, get mad at yourself.

You haven't backed up one thing you have said yet, but you still manage to talk down to other posters even though you don't have any proof to support your arguments.





Yes, the Yankees got out of the Beltran sweepstakes because they COULDNT AFFORD TO STAY IN IT.

They could have afforded it. They have proven time and time agian that they have the money. They thought he wasn't worth the money and they were right.


Pavano and Wright are middle of the road pitchers. Both have had 1 each good seasons, NOT GREAT, just good. Just like Burnett this season... where are your beloved Yankees who can have who they want?? They need pitching as bad as anyone.

You are right. For the most part they have been mediocre pitchers, but there is one big difference. They both had big years when entering the market. They had their good year at the right time. For FA pitchers, the previous year usually has the biggest effect on their market value. Since they had big years they had a huge market.

Patrick Bateman
12-14-2005, 11:30 PM
You discount home WAAAY to much. When you can go home and still have as much a chance to go to the WS and make as much money why would you choose NY over Houston.


That's because the home town effect is usually very small. Many guys take the "home team discount" but it's usually not very much. If the Yanks offer a substantial amount of money that knowone else has any interest in matching (which they very well might) then the home town effect likely wont come into play.

You will get the odd guy like Griffey who will take a well below market deal to go where they want, but that is very rare. I don't see this happening with Dunn. If Dunn chooses Houston it is likely because they offered an extremely competitive deal to him.

ochre
12-14-2005, 11:30 PM
Seriously Astrobuddy, unless you have something substantive to add, we've all heard your unfounded opinion several times now. Let's move on...

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:34 PM
I gave you a kinda a blunt hint earlier considering Dunn which you have dismissed.. DUNN'S FAMILY IS HERE ... DUNN'S FRIENDS ARE HERE. Yes, I am saying I have inside info. Dismiss it if you want too.

This is how I know he isnt a NY kinda guy and that he wants to play in Houston.

The Yankees payroll is over $200 million. They cant go any higher. Ole George does have a limit. Why so many people have Yankee envy I dont know, but they dont have the salary room anymore.

YOU are wrong about Beltran. The Yankees got out and it was reported by EVERYONE because a $17 million per deal would cost the Yankees $26 million per by the time you included the penalties from the payroll tax.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:35 PM
Why should I move on. I am just debating. This is what a forum is for right? People debate the issues.

If I have offended anyone, it is not my intent.

ochre
12-14-2005, 11:39 PM
You aren't debating. You are repeating the same statements over and over. Now you are claiming insider info, which conveniently enough is nothing that we can disprove. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish? Appears to be nothing more than trolling for reactions to me.

If you have something new to add feel free to do so.

guttle11
12-14-2005, 11:42 PM
Dunn isnt a MONEY guy.


Everyboby, and I mean everyboby, are "money" guys. Even more so when they're looking at their first big deal. Dunn will follow the $.

Why else would Joe Johnson sign with the Hawks? Why else would Beltran go to the Mets? Why else would Roger continue to toy with the Astros? Money, that's why.

Just because you're all giddy because Dunn has said he would LIKE to play near his home, doesn't mean he's not in it for the money. Everyone is.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:44 PM
No, I think I will continue to post how I wish. This is your forum, but I have not violated any rules other than saying things you dont like. I will respond to other posters who wish to dicuss this subject with me.

If you choose to censor me then so be it. You can ban me or whatever you wish, but I will post how i wish ( within the forum rules) as long as I am here.



I am not trolling for reaction.

westofyou
12-14-2005, 11:45 PM
I am not trolling for reaction.
If you get mad at people who dont have their facts straight, get mad at yourself.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:50 PM
Guttle.. I dont disagree with you. But here is an example of what I mean.

Astros offer Dunn $12 million for 6 years.

Yankees offer $15 million for 6 years.

Where do you think he will sign? ..... if you said Houston, you are right.

He will keep more money in his pocket going to Houston. Thats my point.

YOu think the Yankees will offer him $20 million? NO way.

ON Beltran.. The Astros offer was actually worth more money when you consider cost of living and taxes. YOu think Dunn and his agent dont know these things.

guttle11
12-14-2005, 11:50 PM
No, I think I will continue to post how I wish. This is your forum, but I have not violated any rules other than saying things you dont like. I will respond to other posters who wish to dicuss this subject with me.

If you choose to censor me then so be it. You can ban me or whatever you wish, but I will post how i wish ( within the forum rules) as long as I am here.



I am not trolling for reaction.

Oh, goodness.

vaticanplum
12-14-2005, 11:55 PM
Dunn will have no interest in playing in NY because he isnt a NY kind of guy. The Yankees have NO shot at winning a WS anytime soon because they are OLD, have NO pitching and have WAAAY over spent.

If you get mad at people who dont have their facts straight, get mad at yourself.

1) Pettitte came 1st , not Clemens. Pettitte never had any intention of playing for NY and he was coming home, period. You are right, NY messed it , but it wasnt over money or respect. They couldnt match Houston's offer of a good contract and sleeping in his bed with his wife, playing golf with his friends and family. That matters.

2) Yes, the Yankees got out of the Beltran sweepstakes because they COULDNT AFFORD TO STAY IN IT.

3) Pavano and Wright are middle of the road pitchers. Both have had 1 each good seasons, NOT GREAT, just good. Just like Burnett this season... where are your beloved Yankees who can have who they want?? They need pitching as bad as anyone.

Astrobuddy, if you find me a quote from Adam Dunn that says he will never play in New York, I will give you a little more credence.

As the horse cries out, I just want to clarify a couple more things...at the time the Yankees were pursuing Beltran, they had just purchased Pavano and Wright, two pitchers who, as Austin Kearns has stated, were coming off great years and were two of the most desirable free agents in the pool last year. The Yankees got them when they needed to. Because of that, no, in fact, they did not need starting pitching, Burnett or anybody else, this year. They have stated repeatedly that their focus this season is the bullpen and the outfield.

To that end, they may yet sign a big-name free agent, but for now are pulling up Bubba Crosby. They will very soon be rid of Bernie Williams, and Gary Sheffield will follow in the next couple of years (his contract runs either two or three more, I think). With that, they will be free to spend some heavy money, and they will also be looking for an outfielder with power. I state once again, if they want Dunn, they will go after him, and they will stand a strong chance of getting him, either as a free agent or in a trade, depending on the timing.

But in the interest of the poor horse, I will say no more about this. You are right, Astrobuddy. It is, after all, every baseball player's dream to play only near where they grew up, and no one can compete with that in this age when so little money is being thrown around. Plus, it's Houston! Clemens went back to Houston, and he's such a likeable guy, who wouldn't want to play with him. Pettitte went back to Houston, and it had everything to do with his home and nothing to do with the crappy way he was treated or his wife's uproar over the reported mistress he had in that godforsaken New York City. Dunn will have no interest in staying with the team that drafted him, the teammates with whom he has tremendous rapport, the team that may against all odds fight to keep him. He will have no interest in going to one of the greatest franchises in one of the most exciting cities in the country, which will pay him enough to buy a quarter of Houston if he wants to. Nor will he have any interest in pursuing any other offer from any other great team, for that matter. No, he's just going to hop on this poor dead horse and ride all the way home to his non-existent wife and children back in Texas, for the simple reason that he's just that kind of guy. :bang:

guttle11
12-14-2005, 11:57 PM
Guttle.. I dont disagree with you. But here is an example of what I mean.

Astros offer Dunn $12 million for 6 years.

Yankees offer $15 million for 6 years.

Where do you think he will sign? ..... if you said Houston, you are right.

He will keep more money in his pocket going to Houston. Thats my point.

YOu think the Yankees will offer him $20 million? NO way.

ON Beltran.. The Astros offer was actually worth more money when you consider cost of living and taxes. YOu think Dunn and his agent dont know these things.

If the Yankees want him, they will offer what it takes. Same with Boston, the Cubs, Baltimore, Anaheim, Seattle and other big spending ball clubs. Houston knows they can't compete with other clubs in free agency so they will attempt to trade for him. If they do so, they will hope he likes it and takes a home town discount.

People that take less pay to play "at home" generally have a ton of cash already. Dunn has made very little in terms of pro sports money. Athletes have egos and Dunn will want to be paid what he feels he is worth compared to other players.

Astrobuddy
12-14-2005, 11:59 PM
OK.. we will see.

guttle11
12-15-2005, 12:09 AM
Back to the original point of the thread, I would not trade Dunn for Lidge. He may be a great closer, but IMO that is like being considered a great RBI guy. It is the least important "starting" position to me. If your starting five, set-up men, or starting 9 can't get you lots of leads, no one ever knows your name.

IMO, all trades for Dunn with Houston begin, and end, with Roy Oswalt.

Patrick Bateman
12-15-2005, 12:57 AM
If you get mad at people who dont have their facts straight, get mad at yourself.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

PuffyPig
12-15-2005, 01:04 AM
Astros offer Dunn $12 million for 6 years.

Yankees offer $15 million for 6 years.

Where do you think he will sign? ..... if you said Houston, you are right.

He will keep more money in his pocket going to Houston. Thats my point.

YOu think the Yankees will offer him $20 million? NO way.

ON Beltran.. The Astros offer was actually worth more money when you consider cost of living and taxes. YOu think Dunn and his agent dont know these things.

While it might cost more to live in NY than Houston, it sure don't cost $3M more.

And, I think maybe Boras is also aware of tax rates and Cost of Living figures. Query why Beltran chose NY?

Astrobuddy
12-15-2005, 01:21 AM
Yea.. actually it does. It is probably more than $3 million. NY has state and city taxes, Texas has neither. Dunn has to buy a home there, he already has one here and on and on.....

I already explained that the numbers were run and Houston's offer to Beltran was worth more in actual cash than the Mets offer. Beltran went to NY because of increased media exposure and the fact that Houston wouldnt give him a No trade clause.

jmcclain19
12-15-2005, 01:39 AM
Yea.. actually it does. It is probably more than $3 million. NY has state and city taxes, Texas has neither.

I think anyone that owns property or a house in Texas would disagree wholeheartedly with that statement.

Texans pay about 8-10% of their money to the state. Just like the rest of America.

SteelSD
12-15-2005, 01:47 AM
I think anyone that owns property or a house in Texas would disagree wholeheartedly with that statement.

Texans pay about 8-10% of their money to the state. Just like the rest of America.

Well...not the entire rest of America...:D

redsin2006
12-15-2005, 02:48 AM
I think tt1stros is right. There's very little in the article that implies Dunn is on the trade block other than the fact that he lives in nearby "Porter" tx.

The writer does convey that it would be a bit surprising if the Reds were in the least bit interrested considering they just unloaded Casey indicating that Lopez is tuned in to the fact that the Reds "had" a surplus of outfielders but not now, since we all know Adam will play first.

KronoRed
12-15-2005, 04:26 AM
How many players live in Texas or were born there?

Do they all want to be astros?

;)

puca
12-15-2005, 08:42 AM
Adam Dunn may very well end up in Houston. That fact should have no bearing on if/where Adam Dunn is traded this year. Dunn should only be traded if the return immediately makes the Reds competitive (impossible) or remarkably improves their future. Otherwise the Reds should use the remaining two years to continue LTC discussions while waiting for a team with a rich farm system to come calling.

OldRightHander
12-15-2005, 11:02 AM
Yea.. actually it does. It is probably more than $3 million. NY has state and city taxes, Texas has neither. Dunn has to buy a home there, he already has one here and on and on.....


The tax argument doesn't hold water. Many athletes have their official residence in states like Florida or Texas that don't have state income taxes. It's pretty common for a guy to have residence in one of those states and play in any other city he so chooses.

danforsman
12-15-2005, 02:00 PM
I believe the state of New York (http://www.tax.state.ny.us/) has a 4% sales tax, whereas the Great State of Texas has an 8.25% sales tax. I'm pretty sure each state has its own way of picketing its residents pockets effectively enough.

For example, Adam can choose to continue living 40 miles north of downtown Houston if he plays for the Astros, where land is much cheaper and the frills are much more mundane and likely more inexpensive, but he'll also be paying for the extra gasoline for his F-550 pickup and the tolls for the highway to boot. The NY-is-more-expensive-than-everwhere-else-by-definition argument is intellectually lazy.

Red Leader
12-15-2005, 02:12 PM
Be sure to move him to first.

Them gams are gonna go. And how.

Uh-oh! That might be what busts Astrobuddy's bubble. The 'Stros already have an OF that has to move to the infield because of gimpy limbs, and he just happens to be a franchise player, locked into a big contract...Lance Berkman. If you sign Dunn, where does he play? OF? Won't stay healthy for the contract if so. Not going to move Berkman off 1B after 2006.

tts1stros
12-15-2005, 05:54 PM
Astrobuddy - seriously, unless you personally know Adam Dunn and he's told you these things, you're stating a lot of opinions with absolute certainty. The fact is, you don't know anything you're saying for a fact.

* You don't know that Dunn won't sign long term with Cincy
* You don't know that Dunn will spurn any other offer to sign with Houston
* You don't know that Dunn would choose Houston over NY regardless of money
* You don't know that taxes are even a consideration for Dunn (remember, when you consider taxes our offer for Beltran was higher than the Mets).

Please stop presenting your statements as facts.

We're guests here...please treat other fans nicely. :)

Red Leader
12-15-2005, 05:57 PM
Astrobuddy - seriously, unless you personally know Adam Dunn and he's told you these things, you're stating a lot of opinions with absolute certainty. The fact is, you don't know anything you're saying for a fact.

* You don't know that Dunn won't sign long term with Cincy
* You don't know that Dunn will spurn any other offer to sign with Houston
* You don't know that Dunn would choose Houston over NY regardless of money
* You don't know that taxes are even a consideration for Dunn (remember, when you consider taxes our offer for Beltran was higher than the Mets).

Please stop presenting your statements as facts.

We're guests here...please treat other fans nicely. :)



:clap:

Thank you, tts1stros. BTW, I enjoy reading your posts, so make sure you stop by more often.

OldRightHander
12-15-2005, 06:15 PM
Astrobuddy - seriously, unless you personally know Adam Dunn and he's told you these things, you're stating a lot of opinions with absolute certainty. The fact is, you don't know anything you're saying for a fact.

* You don't know that Dunn won't sign long term with Cincy
* You don't know that Dunn will spurn any other offer to sign with Houston
* You don't know that Dunn would choose Houston over NY regardless of money
* You don't know that taxes are even a consideration for Dunn (remember, when you consider taxes our offer for Beltran was higher than the Mets).

Please stop presenting your statements as facts.

We're guests here...please treat other fans nicely. :)

And you are a most welcome guest. :thumbup:

KronoRed
12-15-2005, 06:17 PM
Finally some logic

Thanks TTS :)

WMR
12-15-2005, 06:17 PM
All that hometown crap could very well be outweighed by his affection for playing w/ Kearns in Cincy. It might be, it might not be; only 1 person knows for sure. I know he loves him some Kearns.