PDA

View Full Version : Carson Palmer signs Extension



Pages : [1] 2

Joseph
12-29-2005, 01:28 PM
Per press conference on 1360

6 year extension through 2014!

Carson Palmer that is, of the Bengals. Re-read and realized it didn't make a lot of sense if you weren't a Bengals fan and maybe not even then.

westofyou
12-29-2005, 01:42 PM
Adam Dunn should have been treated with as much respect.

StillFunkyB
12-29-2005, 02:17 PM
Adam Dunn should have been treated with as much respect.

Was going to say the same thing. Can we get Katie to run the Reds too?

TeamBoone
12-29-2005, 02:19 PM
Good deal! Carson is so humble; he was awesome during the press conference.

Hopefully Marvin is next (and Adam of course!).

RedFanAlways1966
12-29-2005, 02:52 PM
Looks like my Carson Palmer jersey (bought 2 years ago) was a good investment. In the NFL it is a dangerous game to buy anyone's jersey.

Great news! :beerme:

Heath
12-29-2005, 02:56 PM
ah, the NFL where contracts can be voided at anytime and salary bonuses paid up front.

Reds Fanatic
12-29-2005, 03:05 PM
I read on the Bengals website that some people in the industry say it could be the biggest contract ever in the NFL. Over the course of the next 9 years he should make around $118 million.

remdog
12-29-2005, 03:12 PM
Now he has to stay healthy.

Rem

SunDeck
12-29-2005, 03:43 PM
I read on the Bengals website that some people in the industry say it could be the biggest contract ever in the NFL.

You mean like with one of those huge checks that Publisher's Clearinghouse uses?

Matt700wlw
12-29-2005, 04:18 PM
The Reds should take notes...The Bengals don't use "small market" as an excuse.

The Bengals are doing things right......sounds weird doesn't it?

KronoRed
12-29-2005, 04:31 PM
NFL and MLB system are 2 different beasts.

Everyone in the NFL has the same cash to spend.

And if Carson tanks it the Bengals can drop him without having to pay much.

Matt700wlw
12-29-2005, 04:39 PM
He won't tank it.

KronoRed
12-29-2005, 04:42 PM
But if he does..or suddenly becomes injury prone the Bengals won't be stuck with him like say the Reds might be.

ochre
12-29-2005, 04:47 PM
But if he does..or suddenly becomes injury prone the Bengals won't be stuck with him like say the Reds might be.
Can he pitch?

RedLegSuperStar
12-29-2005, 05:03 PM
This Is Telling You Something.. These Arn't The Old Bengals.. Finally They Want To Win And Signing Palmer Till 14 Is Huge!!!

Heath
12-29-2005, 05:11 PM
Can he pitch?

No, but he can dance and sing. And make a mean taco salad.


Oh, my bad, that's woy :dunno:

Northern Dancer
12-29-2005, 07:55 PM
Looks like my Carson Palmer jersey (bought 2 years ago) was a good investment. In the NFL it is a dangerous game to buy anyone's jersey.

Great news! :beerme:
Good point. I bought mine just a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully I will be able to wear it while watching meaningful January games in the years to come.

macro
12-30-2005, 10:06 AM
But if he does..or suddenly becomes injury prone the Bengals won't be stuck with him like say the Reds might be.

I posted this at Bengaldom, but I'll repeat it here for the slackers :D who have yet to make there way over there...

If these NFL contracts are not guaranteed and the player can be cut and not paid at any time, why on earth would the player sign a long-term deal? It would seem that this works only in the team's best interest and not the player's.

:confused:

Joseph
12-30-2005, 10:35 AM
I feel like this is like Troy Aikman a decade ago in Dallas. He likes whats happening here, and wants to stay, get paid reasonably well, and free up cash for the team to sign other players. Carson will restructure this deal in 3 or 4 years, but don't forget there is no cap next year in the NFL and Carson is going to get something like 30 million over the next year between bonuses and salary. So it's not a bad deal for him either.

WMR
12-31-2005, 01:25 AM
Where are the haters who kept saying that Carson couldn't wait to get out of Cincy at now?

deltachi8
12-31-2005, 04:09 AM
I posted this at Bengaldom, but I'll repeat it here for the slackers :D who have yet to make there way over there...

If these NFL contracts are not guaranteed and the player can be cut and not paid at any time, why on earth would the player sign a long-term deal? It would seem that this works only in the team's best interest and not the player's.

:confused:

Two words: Signing Bonus.

Without the long term of the contract, a team doesnt pony up the large cash up front - which for cap purposes can be spread over the life of the deal.

The important number with this ir any deal is how much of it came in the bonus and how much is guarnteed.

westofyou
01-08-2006, 08:10 PM
Holy Greg Cook, that was a Krumrie time for an ACL tear.

MrCinatit
01-08-2006, 08:13 PM
the present performance of the team shows why this team needs Palmer...a lot.

Redsland
01-08-2006, 08:17 PM
Can he pitch...er, I mean, can he play D?

Sean_CaseyRules
01-08-2006, 08:23 PM
Did they say it was an ACL related injury?
Cause this past year i was hit like that in high school fooball and it was mostly a MCL tear

RFS62
01-08-2006, 08:27 PM
The curse of the Cincy long term deal

KronoRed
01-08-2006, 08:31 PM
Did they say it was an ACL related injury?
Cause this past year i was hit like that in high school fooball and it was mostly a MCL tear
Apparently it was both if the CBS guys are correct.

RFS62
01-08-2006, 08:32 PM
they just said it was both

Sean_CaseyRules
01-08-2006, 08:35 PM
Apparently it was both if the CBS guys are correct.

Well when i got hit, I completely tore my MCL, but also my cartledge, miniscis, and a little bit of my ACL was torn, so i know how he feels, lol
but its not fun!:thumbdown

Jpup
01-08-2006, 08:36 PM
looked intentional to me. :thumbdown

Reds4Life
01-08-2006, 08:43 PM
looked intentional to me. :thumbdown

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/images/01/08/tx_0108_palmer_getty.jpg

Caseyfan21
01-08-2006, 08:44 PM
looked intentional to me. :thumbdown

I thought that orginally but looking back at replays I don't think it was. Van Ollhafan (sp?) was kind of blocked into Palmer and when he saw Palmer down he seemed upset. Unfortunate? Yes. Intentional? No.

Jaycint
01-08-2006, 08:48 PM
Definitely wasn't intentional. Kimo was upset when he saw Palmer was hurt.

The Cincinnati injury jinx lives on, Kenyon Martin in C-USA tournament in 2000, now this. If by some miracle the Reds make the playoffs this season fully expect Adam Dunn to get hit in the head with a pitch in Game 1 of the divisional series and be out for the remainder of the playoffs.

traderumor
01-08-2006, 09:17 PM
I'm confident he will be back full strength regardless of the severity with today's sports medicine, surely less mobile, but he was pretty much a pocket passer anyhow.

GAC
01-08-2006, 09:20 PM
Definitely wasn't intentional. Kimo was upset when he saw Palmer was hurt.

You're exactly right, and the replay shows that. He was thoroughly upset at what happened and was standing next to Palmer and pointing down out of concern for him.

Reds4Life
01-08-2006, 09:44 PM
I'm starting to wonder if someone upstairs hates Cincinnati sports. When Palmer went down I thought of Kenyon Martin going down in 2000.

traderumor
01-08-2006, 09:57 PM
You're exactly right, and the replay shows that. He was thoroughly upset at what happened and was standing next to Palmer and pointing down out of concern for him.
I think the timing of the hit is the primary problem I have with it. The ball was well gone and a dive toward the knees at that point was unnecessary. He was not pushed, he just didn't try real hard to avoid contact, the kind of hit that DLman get away with all the time---and put out QBs all the time with.

westofyou
01-08-2006, 10:18 PM
I'm starting to wonder if someone upstairs hates Cincinnati sports. When Palmer went down I thought of Kenyon Martin going down in 2000.

Nah 2 worst ones... the other team throwing the World Series

Ernie Lombardi having a "snooze" in the 1939 World Series

StillFunkyB
01-08-2006, 10:20 PM
I think the timing of the hit is the primary problem I have with it. The ball was well gone and a dive toward the knees at that point was unnecessary. He was not pushed, he just didn't try real hard to avoid contact, the kind of hit that DLman get away with all the time---and put out QBs all the time with.

Yeah, I'm not so sure it was intentional, but he sure didn't try to avoid doing it.

Heath
01-08-2006, 10:20 PM
Nah 2 worst ones... the other team throwing the World Series

Ernie Lombardi having a "snooze" in the 1939 World Series

I was thinking Greg Cook revisted.

And the Stingers folding.

dsmith421
01-08-2006, 10:47 PM
There is no God.

Well, if there is, he hates me.

Jpup
01-09-2006, 05:10 AM
I thought that orginally but looking back at replays I don't think it was. Van Ollhafan (sp?) was kind of blocked into Palmer and when he saw Palmer down he seemed upset. Unfortunate? Yes. Intentional? No.

acting? I think so.

RedFanAlways1966
01-09-2006, 08:51 AM
acting? I think so.

Absolutely. Kimo PURPOSELY hit Palmer low in the legs. Make no ifs, ands or buts about that. He also knew that being blocked to the ground just before the CHEAP SHOT would make it "appear" that it was simply accidental. He did not fall into Palmer, he shoved Palmer after being knocked to the ground. His momentum played no part in the contact to Palmer's legs. His zeal to knock him down "2 seconds after the throw was made" was what drove him to do it. This is better known as a CHEAP SHOT. Some are better (circumstances make it appear as an unfortunate thing and fools the refs) than others and this one was one of those.

But it is football. These things happen. I don't like it and I will forever despise Kimo, but this is what happens in a rough game. And if it had been a Bengals d-lineman doing it to Ben, I'd probably be defending that Bengals player and claiming that it was an accident. Such is the NFL!

kyred14
01-09-2006, 09:25 AM
The more I think about it, the more suspicious I get about that hit. Very convinent that this "accident" takes place on the second play. Maybe Kimo wasn't trying to destroy Palmer's knee, but it sure makes the sledding alot smoother when you don't have deal with the other teams' best player.

dsmith421
01-09-2006, 09:50 AM
Is it true, as suggested elsewhere, that the Pittsburgh bench was celebrating as Palmer was carted off?

GAC
01-09-2006, 10:04 AM
Then why is it reported that Kimo (a former Bengal) after the game was very remorseful and upset about that play?

He was blocked down, and IMO, didn't realize the ball was released, and was simply trying to get to the QB and make a play. This all happens very quickly also.

And his actions right after the play, which are caught on film. say alot in his defense IMO.

And Willie Anderson, who knows Kimo, has come out in his defense.

No - I still don't believe it was an intentional, malicious hit.

Redsfaithful
01-09-2006, 10:12 AM
Is it true, as suggested elsewhere, that the Pittsburgh bench was celebrating as Palmer was carted off?

I didn't personally see it, but I've read on other message boards that callers to sports radio talk shows in Cincinnati said their bench celebrated. There's one poster over at Huddles who was there who confirms it.

I really hate the Steelers.

And I don't think the hit was intentional, but it could have been avoided.

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 10:13 AM
Then why is it reported that Kimo (a former Bengal) after the game was very remorseful and upset about that play?

He was blocked down, and IMO, didn't realize the ball was released, and was simply trying to get to the QB and make a play. This all happens very quickly also.

And his actions right after the play, which are caught on film. say alot in his defense IMO.

And Willie Anderson, who knows Kimo, has come out in his defense.

No - I still don't believe it was an intentional, malicious hit.

Why do people use his reaction to defend a very obviously deliberate late-hit? I'm sure he didn't mean to send Palmer into paroxysms of pain, but the guy steamrolled Palmer's knee wantonly, well after he had chucked the football--he wasn't going on forward inertia and he wasn't tackled into Palmer. He rolled. He meant to cheap shot, but not to injure. When he did injure, he regretted it. Why is that so hard to fathom?

traderumor
01-09-2006, 10:26 AM
not sure what just happened

RedsBaron
01-09-2006, 10:30 AM
Why do people use his reaction to defend a very obviously deliberate late-hit? I'm sure he didn't mean to send Palmer into paroxysms of pain, but the guy steamrolled Palmer's knee wantonly, well after he had chucked the football--he wasn't going on forward inertia and he wasn't tackled into Palmer. He rolled. He meant to cheap shot, but not to injure. When he did injure, he regretted it. Why is that so hard to fathom?
I agree. Did Kimo intend to injure Palmer as severely as he did? Probably not. Did he intentionally hit him late? Yes. Did the Steelers essentially win the game as a result? Absolutely.
Several movies quotes have been running through my mind. I realize my thoughts are probably unfair and not exactly peaceful.
Sean Connery as "Jim Malone" in "The Untouchables" explained to Kevin Costner's "Elliott Ness" how to get Al Capone: "They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue." The Steelers pulled a knife, sent Palmer to the hospital and got away with it.
Accident? John Wayne in "Big Jake" to Richard Boone: "And you understand. Anything goes wrong, anything at all--your fault, my fault, nobody's fault--it won't matter--I'm gonna blow your head off."
Yes, those quotes are extreme, and make-believe as well--and, yes, on refelction, my "better angels" would probably make me regret even having the thoughts.......I just hope the Colts whip the Steelers 75-0.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 10:41 AM
Then why is it reported that Kimo (a former Bengal) after the game was very remorseful and upset about that play?

He was blocked down, and IMO, didn't realize the ball was released, and was simply trying to get to the QB and make a play. This all happens very quickly also.

And his actions right after the play, which are caught on film. say alot in his defense IMO.

And Willie Anderson, who knows Kimo, has come out in his defense.

No - I still don't believe it was an intentional, malicious hit.

Kimo's biggest problem is that he possesses no super power that negates the effect of gravity on a 300-pound man while being shoved by another 300-pound man.

Guy was blocked down by the offensive lineman, had no way to determine whether or not the ball was thrown, and the momentum unfortunately carried him into the leg that was supporting all of Palmer's weight.

Neither dirty nor preventable. That's just football.

deltachi8
01-09-2006, 10:50 AM
What Steel Said.

As a Steeler fan, i think both this hit an dthe one on Ben a few weeks ago were both within the rules and not dirty or cheap at all.

The Bengals had a hell of a season and will build upon next year. It will make a terrific rivalry for the next few years. Reminds me of the 1987 Pistons who were every bit as good as the Celtics, maybee better, and got swatted in the playoffs by them. They used that as a lesson and became a better team for it.

Now, I can not believe I just cited an NBA reference, a league I have not watched or followed in years....

Carson will be back and so will the Bengals. And don't worry the Steeler's seaosn will be over about 3:00 Sunday.

traderumor
01-09-2006, 10:56 AM
Kimo's biggest problem is that he possesses no super power that negates the effect of gravity on a 300-pound man while being shoved by another 300-pound man.

Guy was blocked down by the offensive lineman, had no way to determine whether or not the ball was thrown, and the momentum unfortunately carried him into the leg that was supporting all of Palmer's weight.

Neither dirty nor preventable. That's just football.I disagree about the blocking. They had released him. I think he had control and went for the low hit. A part of football, sure, just like how the Broncos take out guys knees away from the play? Would you care to defend that technique as well? One can take out another guy at any time and the ball was gone long enough that a late hit was a possible call. It may have not been a "dirty" play, but I think that it was a play lacking sportsmanship. A guy can take out a QB any time he wants to, several times a game. That was an intentional low hit, an intentional late low hit.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 10:56 AM
Y'know, I keep hearing about how "late" the hit was...

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060108/capt.pbs10601082259.steelers_bengals_football_pbs1 06.jpg

That's about as good an example as I can find to show exactly where things were the moment before the hit occurred. A moment.

Kimo is already heading down. Take a look at the O-lineman, who shoved him in that direction. Palmer's still got the ball in his hand. Anyone think that Kimo has eyes in the top of his helmet? Because that's the only way he'd be able to tell if the ball was gone or not. It wasn't yet- and his momentum was already heading toward the leg of the man he's looking to tackle.

Roy Tucker
01-09-2006, 10:59 AM
Kimo's biggest problem is that he possesses no super power that negates the effect of gravity on a 300-pound man while being shoved by another 300-pound man.

Guy was blocked down by the offensive lineman, had no way to determine whether or not the ball was thrown, and the momentum unfortunately carried him into the leg that was supporting all of Palmer's weight.

Neither dirty nor preventable. That's just football.
Yeah. It looked like just one of those things. It all stinks, but its brutal and violent game played by a bunch of really big guys. I've been on the sidelines at Wilmington and Georgetown training camps and the speed and violence of NFL collisions is just ungodly. I don't see how anyone survives a game.

When they first showed Palmer on the turf after the long bomb to Henry, I was thinking he took a shot to the head. But when they showed the replay and the degree to which his knee bent, I said "that's the ballgame right there, there is no way he's playing again today". I figured it was just a matter of time before they collapsed.

I talked to a guy this AM who went to the game at PBS and he said when the crowd realized Palmer was writhing on the turf and they showed the replay on the Jumbotron, he said it was like a collective punch to the solar plexus. The air just went out of the stadium. He said the crowd never really got back into it.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 11:08 AM
I disagree about the blocking. They had released him. I think he had control and went for the low hit. A part of football, sure, just like how the Broncos take out guys knees away from the play? Would you care to defend that technique as well? One can take out another guy at any time and the ball was gone long enough that a late hit was a possible call. It may have not been a "dirty" play, but I think that it was a play lacking sportsmanship. A guy can take out a QB any time he wants to, several times a game. That was an intentional low hit, an intentional late low hit.

Take a look at the pic I posted. The offensive lineman turned Kimo in and directed him down. Kimo's momentum was already set. There's nothing he could have done in that position. Unfortunate, yes. Intentional or late? Not unless Kimo can suspend himself in mid-air at will or be able to see out of the top of his helmet that Palmer's arm was in the follow-through position before trying to tackle the QB he's supposed to try to tackle.

Sometimes tragic accidents are just tragic accidents.

Dom Heffner
01-09-2006, 11:10 AM
I thought that late pass interference call on the Bengals was worse than the hit on Palmer.

traderumor
01-09-2006, 11:20 AM
I thought that late pass interference call on the Bengals was worse than the hit on Palmer.There was a big no call on pass interference when the game was 21-17 near the goal line on a bomb to TJ that happened right in front of the official that I felt was very critical.

Steel, I saw the replay several times, the picture doesn't show depth perception very well. I don't think much is gained by further hashing this out, so I'll let it go, ok?

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 11:35 AM
Steel, I saw the replay several times, the picture doesn't show depth perception very well. I don't think much is gained by further hashing this out, so I'll let it go, ok?

How's this one then (half a second later during Palmer's follow-through)?

http://tinypic.com/jzdtgw.jpg

Jpup
01-09-2006, 11:54 AM
How's this one then (half a second later during Palmer's follow-through)?

http://tinypic.com/jzdtgw.jpg

it's very obvious, by looking at the replay, that it was an intentional late hit. I don't like either team and couldn't care less about the players involved, but I continue to think that it was very blatant followed by some poor acting by von Oelhoffen.

TeamBoone
01-09-2006, 11:56 AM
I'm starting to wonder if someone upstairs hates Cincinnati sports. When Palmer went down I thought of Kenyon Martin going down in 2000.

Wow! So did I and even said as much to those I was watching with.

And, yet another perception... it didn't look to me like he was blocked into Palmer. He was crawling toward him and wrapped his arm around one leg. Any player worth his salt knows that kind of "tackle" will badly hurt someone.

There was also a costly non-call of pass interference (T.J. I think). The guy was all over him and it wasn't called; even one of the comentators mentioned it. They didn't miss it when the Bengals did it in the endzone though.

An unsportsmanlike conduct call against the Bengals for "pushing" after the player was out of bounds was also bogus, especially when the Steelers did the same thing later in the game and it wasn't called.

CrackerJack
01-09-2006, 11:56 AM
Cheap shot from a Steeler? Not a suprise...classless team generally speaking. They cried like babies when Odell got knocked into Ben last time. I was thinking this was payback of some sort.

One thing's for sure: God hates the Bengals' and hates Bengal fans.

RedFanAlways1966
01-09-2006, 11:57 AM
Questions:

(1) Is it illegal in the NFL to hit a QB in the knee (or below) region at ANY time?
(2) Would people have an easier time believing that it was an accident if Kimo's right arm was not wrapped around Palmer's leg? Was it purely an accident that his arm wrapped around his leg while he was supposedly pushed into Palmer?

Answers:
(1) YES. Does not matter when. It does matter that your arm is wrapped around the QB's lower leg which shows intent.
(2) YES. Kimo's arm shows that the incidental b/c of the block is bunk. This one is what gets me... seems to be way too many "incidentals" in that play. Sure he might have been blocked into the QB, but did his arm accidently wrap around the QB's leg too? Not on your life. He did it on purpose. I didn't say he meant to hurt Palmer, but he defintely took a shot (at his lower leg region) while down there. The lower leg region is ILLEGAL in the NFL.

It was not an accident that Kimo purposely took a swipe at Palmer's leg. I cannot and will not accuse him of purposely tryoing to injure Plamer. That is a part of the game. But a fine is definitely in order. I do not blame the ref for not flagging it. It happened so fast and I can see a ref thinking that it was all incidental due to the speed. But replays tell the truth. No doubt about it. Kimo went for that leg.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 12:16 PM
It was not an accident that Kimo purposely took a swipe at Palmer's leg. I cannot and will not accuse him of purposely tryoing to injure Plamer. That is a part of the game. But a fine is definitely in order. I do not blame the ref for not flagging it. It happened so fast and I can see a ref thinking that it was all incidental due to the speed. But replays tell the truth. No doubt about it. Kimo went for that leg.

Palmer's leg is the only thing he could possibly tackle after being blocked down and in toward said leg. Kimo didn't TARGET the knee. That's what you fail to understand. In fact, until the offensive lineman blocked him down and in, he wasn't even going in that direction.

A number of things had to go terribly wrong for Palmer's knee to pop. All of it did. None of it late, negligent, or intentional.

redsfan30
01-09-2006, 12:19 PM
I'm going to play conspiracy theorist here......

Steelers players and fans have made no secret that they think Odell Thurman layed a cheap shot at Ben Roethlisberger's knee in Pittsburgh in December. Look at the tape and it was actually a Steelers offensive lineman's leg that tripped Odell into Ben's knee. Nonetheless though, the Steelers believe it was a cheap shot.

Now, turn the clock forward to the playoff game. First play of the game, Palmer drops back to pass and what happens? I just find it alittle funny when the first play of the game when they thought we went for thiers in December that ours gets hurt and the popular belief is that Von Olahoffan could have pulled up before making contact......that is alittle suspicious to me.

Things that make you go hmm......

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 12:32 PM
I'm going to play conspiracy theorist here......

Steelers players and fans have made no secret that they think Odell Thurman layed a cheap shot at Ben Roethlisberger's knee in Pittsburgh in December. Look at the tape and it was actually a Steelers offensive lineman's leg that tripped Odell into Ben's knee. Nonetheless though, the Steelers believe it was a cheap shot.

Now, turn the clock forward to the playoff game. First play of the game, Palmer drops back to pass and what happens? I just find it alittle funny when the first play of the game when they thought we went for thiers in December that ours gets hurt and the popular belief is that Von Olahoffan could have pulled up before making contact......that is alittle suspicious to me.

Things that make you go hmm......

Yes. That's exactly what happened.

The Steelers got real angry about Thurman's hit and provided great cover by having some of their players tell the press they thought it was an accident (thus contradicting Roethlisberger). After all, they knew they'd be playing Cinci in round one of the playoffs at the time.

Then they asked one of the players (Von Oehlhoffen) least likely to get to the QB to take Palmer's knee out and make it look like an accident. They knew he'd go along because Von Oehlhoffen has had multiple knee injuries in the past so he would surely know how to bust one up on purpose. And he'd be an even less likely suspect being he's one of the least "dirty" players in the NFL and has training as a professional actor.

Yeah. Makes sense. Surely.

redsfan30
01-09-2006, 12:39 PM
Not saying that's what happend, Steel. I just think that Von Oehlhoffen had every chance to shy up and miss making contact. Couple that with the belief the Steelers have the Odell intentionally went for Ben's knee and it's at least something to ponder.

Johnny Footstool
01-09-2006, 12:39 PM
A number of things had to go terribly wrong for Palmer's knee to pop. All of it did. None of it late, negligent, or intentional.

Then why did Von Oehlhoffen wrap his arms around Palmer's leg? Reflex? He didn't hear the referee scream "ball out," which referees do on every pass play and defensive linemen are trained to hear so they can avoid late-hit penalties?

Personally, I don't think the Steelers planned to injure Palmer, and I don't think Von Oehlhoffen was trying to intentionally hurt him. But it was a late hit. Very late. It should have been a penalty.

Joseph
01-09-2006, 12:43 PM
I can't believe this is being seriously debated as being intentional.

Ravenlord
01-09-2006, 12:49 PM
if that was a late hit, then i'm a Bengals fan.

westofyou
01-09-2006, 12:54 PM
Boy after 15 years of stink this season was nicer than I thought it would be, so I'll take it and forgo crying in my beer or pointing fingers.

However concerning that Pittsburgh safety (#23) I hope he gets his clock cleaned sometime next week.

But that's just me.

RedFanAlways1966
01-09-2006, 12:58 PM
Boy after 15 years of stink this season was nicer than I thought it would be, so I'll take it and forgo crying in my beer or pointing fingers.

However concerning that Pittsburgh safety (#23) I hope he gets his clock cleaned sometime next week.

But that's just me.

Amen. Nice to not just make the playoffs, but have a winning record!

I think that #23 is named Carter. I would not know for sure as he is a no-name type anyhow. If he covers half as well as he runs his mouth on the field, then he should be a lock for All-Century. He may not get his clock cleaned next weekend, but he may be chasing lots of Indy receivers who are heading for the endzone.

Playadlc
01-09-2006, 01:00 PM
The thing that really pisses me off is the fact the Steelers were celebrating on the sidelines right after the play (which has been reported by numerous people at the game).

What's up with that? I can't imagine anything more pathetic than cheering about a guy that just got his knee blown out.

Oh well, it will be fun watching the Steelers get pasted up in Indy this weekend.

traderumor
01-09-2006, 01:04 PM
I'm debating on whether or not to listen to lance today on 1360. I can't imagine it will be pretty. I'm guessing a beer vendor might even get blamed for some bad things happening in the game.

RFS62
01-09-2006, 01:05 PM
Well, I saw it and thought it was just an unfortunate injury.

Didn't look dirty at all to me. Things move so fast on every play in the NFL. You can't do a slow motion replay analysis and do justice to the speed and violence on every play.

deltachi8
01-09-2006, 01:14 PM
Boy after 15 years of stink this season was nicer than I thought it would be, so I'll take it and forgo crying in my beer or pointing fingers.

However concerning that Pittsburgh safety (#23) I hope he gets his clock cleaned sometime next week.

But that's just me.

Tyronne Carter. Basically the 53rd man coming out of camp, only made the roster because he played special teams better than another safety they cut.

He is a loudmoth who talks better than he plays. I dislike him and I am a life-long Steeler fan.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 01:14 PM
Then why did Von Oehlhoffen wrap his arms around Palmer's leg? Reflex? He didn't hear the referee scream "ball out," which referees do on every pass play and defensive linemen are trained to hear so they can avoid late-hit penalties?

Personally, I don't think the Steelers planned to injure Palmer, and I don't think Von Oehlhoffen was trying to intentionally hurt him. But it was a late hit. Very late. It should have been a penalty.

I'm just wondering...

Does every hit that occurs during a QB's follow-through qualify as "late" when the defensive player has no possible way of seeing the ball being released? We can muse that the words "Ball Out" were screamed at the top of the ref's lungs, but if that happened it was as Kimo hit Palmer- not seconds before.

I've watched that replay over and over this morning and still can't find the opportunity window between the release and the hit for a 300-pound man falling forward to stop himself even if we assume he knew what he couldn't possibly see (that the ball was released). Even the stills show that Palmer was hit by a man who was falling forward even before he released the ball.

Sorry, but I just don't see it.

savafan
01-09-2006, 01:21 PM
Even if Kimo couldn't see that the ball was released, that doesn't give him license to make a late hit. If I don't see a speed limit sign posted, a cop isn't going to give me a free pass for going 120 MPH down a country road. Ignorance is not a defense.

Roy Tucker
01-09-2006, 01:28 PM
Yes. That's exactly what happened.

The Steelers got real angry about Thurman's hit and provided great cover by having some of their players tell the press they thought it was an accident (thus contradicting Roethlisberger). After all, they knew they'd be playing Cinci in round one of the playoffs at the time.

Then they asked one of the players (Von Oehlhoffen) least likely to get to the QB to take Palmer's knee out and make it look like an accident. They knew he'd go along because Von Oehlhoffen has had multiple knee injuries in the past so he would surely know how to bust one up on purpose. And he'd be an even less likely suspect being he's one of the least "dirty" players in the NFL and has training as a professional actor.

Yeah. Makes sense. Surely.
http://www.paulkatcher.com/images/seinfeld_hernandez.jpg

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 01:34 PM
Kimo was not in any way shoved toward Palmer's leg by a Bengal OL--his momentum was halted by the OL and Kimo flopped himself--deliberately--at a stationary Palmer. It was a total "message-sender" of a hit.

Jpup
01-09-2006, 01:35 PM
I can't believe this is being seriously debated as being intentional.

I can't either, it looked blatantly intentional.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 01:37 PM
Even if Kimo couldn't see that the ball was released, that doesn't give him license to make a late hit. If I don't see a speed limit sign posted, a cop isn't going to give me a free pass for going 120 MPH down a country road. Ignorance is not a defense.

sava, that wasn't a "Release...one...two...bang!". That was a "Release-bang!".

With the momentum he had going, couldn't have stopped moving down and forward even if he wanted to. In any case, it appears you'd be expecting all defensive players to stop in anticipation of the release rather than post-release. That just doesn't happen and we see QB's hit consistently during their follow-through and nothing's called.

Ravenlord
01-09-2006, 01:40 PM
I can't either, it looked blatantly intentional.
if you've never seen a pass rush before.

RedFanAlways1966
01-09-2006, 01:41 PM
if you've never seen a pass rush before.

"Defensively speaking"... that could be true for us Bengals fans! :D

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 01:52 PM
Kimo was not in any way shoved toward Palmer's leg by a Bengal OL--his momentum was halted by the OL and Kimo flopped himself--deliberately--at a stationary Palmer. It was a total "message-sender" of a hit.

Uh-huh. That's why the offensive lineman in the pic below is hunched over during the process of shoving Kimo down and in.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060108/capt.pbs10601082259.steelers_bengals_football_pbs1 06.jpg

In the "hit" pic, we see the same offensive lineman turned directly towards Palmer. That happens after you've shifted your weight in order to PUSH something a different direction than it's originally going.

http://tinypic.com/jzdtgw.jpg

Kimo was going outside. The offensive lineman TURNED him with force down and inside. Unless you're trying to re-invent physics, you can't possibly end up a place where Kimo's momentum is "stopped" at any point during that play.

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 02:02 PM
Uh-huh. That's why the offensive lineman in the pic below is hunched over during the process of shoving Kimo down and in.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060108/capt.pbs10601082259.steelers_bengals_football_pbs1 06.jpg

In the "hit" pic, we see the same offensive lineman turned directly towards Palmer. That happens after you've shifted your weight in order to PUSH something a different direction than it's originally going.

http://tinypic.com/jzdtgw.jpg

Kimo was going outside. The offensive lineman TURNED him with force down and inside. Unless you're trying to re-invent physics, you can't possibly end up a place where Kimo's momentum is "stopped" at any point during that play.

Those two photos are taken from two different cameramen in two different positions on the sidelines. They are the very definition of inconclusive. Heck, if I'm just unknowingly coming to that first, if I hadn't seen the play unfold on the field, I'd say from that pic that Kimo is diving at his knee deliberately, unaffected at all by the OL. But he wasn't diving directly--his forward momentum was stopped, he whirled and flung himself at Palmer's legs. That's what you're seeing in those photos, the post-roll "flop".

Ravenlord
01-09-2006, 02:05 PM
watching the play happen, it never occured to me the controversy would over wheather it was a dirty play or not.

if this constitutes an illeagal hit/dirty play, then the NFL needs to change it rules to where the defense isn't actually alowed to make contact with the QB.

savafan
01-09-2006, 02:06 PM
Are there any sites that have video of the hit?

bomarl1969
01-09-2006, 02:09 PM
Would have been nice revenge to see Chad Johnson take Troy Polomou's (or however you spell his name) 2 feet long hair and drag him to the ground by it after he intercepted Kitna's pass. I hate Pittsburgh and will never forgive them for this, yes I believe it was every bit intentional.

Two words for Pittsburgh-Dirty Pool

Enjoy the thrashing next week

Heath
01-09-2006, 02:13 PM
If it was any Steeler than Kimo, I'd consider it dirty.

Kimo & Jerome Bettis are about the only two Steelers that have any type of brains.

It was not intentional. It was an accident.

Sincerely,

This Browns Fan watching it on TV at home.

redsfan30
01-09-2006, 02:15 PM
This from Carson's news conference earlier today.


Monday, January 9, 2006
Palmer: I'll start in 2006

By Mark Curnutte
Enquirer staff writer

Carson Palmer, less than 19 hours after suffering a pair of serious knee ligament injuries, said he will be ready for training camp Aug. 2 or 3.

“As comfy as it gets,” Palmer said as he took a seat this morning in the media room at Paul Brown stadium.

“Minutes were hours last night,” he said. “Then some of last night flew by.”

Palmer would not confirm his injuries, but a source close to the situation said Palmer suffered tears to both the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and medial collateral ligament (MCL) in his left knee.

He was hit from the side on his first pass play by Steelers defensive end Kimo von Oelhoffen.

“I don’t know Kimo personally, but what I’ve heard he’s not (a dirty player),” Palmer said. “He’s a guy with a high motor who plays hard. That’s football.”

Palmer watched the game from the training room on TV. He talked with teammates at halftime.

“I was fired up,” he said. “We were up.”

Jon Kitna replaced Palmer and led the Bengals to 17 points.

“That’s my No. 1 concern,” Palmer said when asked if he wanted Kitna back. The backup quarterback is an unrestricted free agent.

“Jon has some opportunities out there. I know the organization wants him back. I want what’s best for him. But selfishly, I want him back.”

Palmer faces a long, difficult rehabilitation period. He said surgery has not been scheduled, but he wants to have the operation performed as soon as possible.

Asked if he were going to be the team’s opening day starter in 2006, he said, “No question. I don’t want to miss anything.”

He will not rush rehab but will work hard.

“I’m not going to do anything stupid,” he said. “I made a commitment to this organization, and it made a commitment to me.”

Palmer signed a new, re-negotiated contract with the Bengals two weeks ago that bind him to the team through the 2014 season.

He did say he would miss field work in the spring.

“It’s going to hurt me,” he said. “I want to take every rep. What I can’t do on the field I will make up for in study. If Kitna’s here, it doesn’t do anything to (hurt) the offense. He knows it better than I do.”

traderumor
01-09-2006, 02:28 PM
watching the play happen, it never occured to me the controversy would over wheather it was a dirty play or not.

if this constitutes an illeagal hit/dirty play, then the NFL needs to change it rules to where the defense isn't actually alowed to make contact with the QB.
That's funny, as soon as it happened, I knew this debate would rage for quite some time. I guess two people can see the same thing and come to different conclusions.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 02:34 PM
Those two photos are taken from two different cameramen in two different positions on the sidelines. They are the very definition of inconclusive. Heck, if I'm just unknowingly coming to that first, if I hadn't seen the play unfold on the field, I'd say from that pic that Kimo is diving at his knee deliberately, unaffected at all by the OL. But he wasn't diving directly--his forward momentum was stopped, he whirled and flung himself at Palmer's legs. That's what you're seeing in those photos, the post-roll "flop".

There was no "whirl". He did not put a spin move on the offensive lineman. Go here:

http://www.bengals.com/team/gameday060108_steelers.asp

Click on Steelers-Bengals Video Highlights in the "Game Coverage" section.

You clearly see that Kimo was not "whirling". You can also CLEARLY see that the offensive lineman firmly planted his left hand on Kimo's backside, turned and shoved him in the direction of Palmer.

RedsBaron
01-09-2006, 02:53 PM
I just received my 1/9/06 issue of SI. Pages 34-35 have a brief article on "Getting Sacked," which includes a photo of Carson Palmer and a quote from him saying that it is "who lands on top of you that makes it hurt." The same issue mentions in its college bowl wrapup on page 43 that Carson's brother, Jordan, who quarterbacked UTEP, injured his left knee in UTEP's loss to Toledo in the GMAC Bowl.
Not a good few weeks for knees in the Palmer family. I blame Bob Boone.

Johnny Footstool
01-09-2006, 03:54 PM
The photos are nice, but in the second one, someone forgot to circle Kimo's arm, which is "unintentionally" wrapped tightly around Palmer's lower leg.

CrackerJack
01-09-2006, 04:15 PM
The photos are nice, but in the second one, someone forgot to circle Kimo's arm, which is "unintentionally" wrapped tightly around Palmer's lower leg.


Yep. One thing that has never been brought up is that it is illegal in the NFL to intentionally hit a QB at the knees or legs - or something of the sort.

I mean when a d-lineman or LB sees an 0-lineman standing there for instance - he CANNOT cut block him at the knees - that is blatantly illegal!

So why can a d-lineman intentionally spear a QB standing there, with his helmet, and wrap his arm around his leg and twist it????????

All Kimo had to do was reach up and grab him and pull him down instead of diving straight into his knee and twist it?

I realize he might not have done it maliciously - no one can say that other than Kimo - but how many times do you see a d-lineman do this to a QB in the NFL??? Never, that's how often - it hardly ever happens.

It's also a statement as to how poorly the 0-line played last night.

Any ways, what's done is done, all I know is that Pitt fans cried and whined about Thurman's hit on Ben last time that was much less intentional-appearing and Thurman LET UP on Ben and made sure he didn't do anything vicious like what Kimo did.

Marvin is not happy about this and eluded to it in his press conference, and the players were ticked last night and upset about it.

I don't think Kimo gets a free pass and should possibly be fined or suspended. If that were Favre or Manning I guarantee there would've been a flag and a fine, at least, and the announcers would've cried bloody Mary.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 04:55 PM
The photos are nice, but in the second one, someone forgot to circle Kimo's arm, which is "unintentionally" wrapped tightly around Palmer's lower leg.

Right. Defender is going down to the ground- partially aided by the offensive lineman who shoved him in the direction of his QB's legs. And said defender should make no effort whatsoever to tackle the guy he's supposed to tackle.

It wasn't the arm that did the damage. It was the shoulder and that shoulder would have rolled that knee regardless even if football players were taught to tuck their arms in and make no effort to tackle the guy they think has the football.

Heck, why don't we just ban the pass rush entirely and be done with it.


So why can a d-lineman intentionally spear a QB standing there, with his helmet, and wrap his arm around his leg and twist it????????

Like FCB's phantom "whirlygig" move, neither of those things happened.

I swear, the way the tales of this event continue to escalate I'm certain that one day we're going to hear a Bengals fan tell his grandchildren about the time a Pittsburgh player took out a gun and shot Carson Palmer in the leg as he was walking back to the huddle.

RedsFan75
01-09-2006, 05:25 PM
Intentional or not is hard to say and Kimo is the only one that can. Personally I don't think he meant to injure Palmer.

My biggest beef is that there was no flag.

As CrackerJack stated...
One thing that has never been brought up is that it is illegal in the NFL to intentionally hit a QB at the knees or legs - or something of the sort.

When Thurman was tripped into Big Ben in the previous game it was flagged, every other incident of hitting someone in the knees in the recent NFL has been flagged. Why not this one?

RedFanAlways1966
01-09-2006, 05:39 PM
When Thurman was tripped into Big Ben in the previous game it was flagged, every other incident of hitting someone in the knees in the recent NFL has been flagged. Why not this one?

Same reason the phantom-interference was called on Kashvaharn and the Steelers got a wonderful gift with a 1st-and-goal at the 5-yard-line. It is the STEELERS vs. the lowly Bengals. It is the same reason there was not a call on an interference with T.J.. It is the STEELERS vs. the lowly Bengals.

We see this in all sports. It is some unconscious thing that refs/umps seem to have and do. Not all the time, but often enough that it is noticable and recognized by many fans.

RedsBaron
01-09-2006, 05:44 PM
I swear, the way the tales of this event continue to escalate I'm certain that one day we're going to hear a Bengals fan tell his grandchildren about the time a Pittsburgh player took out a gun and shot Carson Palmer in the leg as he was walking back to the huddle.
That's how I recall it.;)

Johnny Footstool
01-09-2006, 05:52 PM
Right. Defender is going down to the ground- partially aided by the offensive lineman who shoved him in the direction of his QB's legs. And said defender should make no effort whatsoever to tackle the guy he's supposed to tackle.

He's making an effort to tackle the quarterback after the ball was thrown. It certainly blows the theory that Kimo was purely an innocent victim of the mean ol' lineman's push. Whether or not he knew the ball was out (I think he did), he didn't let up. He still grabbed the QBs leg, and it still should have been a late-hit penalty.

Here's the rule:


3. No defensive player may run into a passer of a legal forward pass after the ball has left his hand (15 yards). The Referee must determine whether opponent had a reasonable chance to stop his momentum during an attempt to block the pass or tackle the passer while he still had the ball.

It's in the interpretation, but IMO, if he had a chance to wrap his arm around Palmer's leg, he had a "reasonable chance" to straighten out that arm and try to break his own fall.

If Kimo had straightened out his arm, I wouldn't be arguing this point at all.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 06:17 PM
He's making an effort to tackle the quarterback after the ball was thrown. It certainly blows the theory that Kimo was purely an innocent victim of the mean ol' lineman's push. Whether or not he knew the ball was out (I think he did), he didn't let up. He still grabbed the QBs leg, and it still should have been a late-hit penalty.

My position has never been that Kimo was "purely" driven by the offensive lineman. His momentum and direction was, however, aided by said offensive lineman. You had a 300-pound guy trying to drive to the QB. The offensive lineman helped him get there.

Kimo hit Palmer during his follow-through and couldn't see Palmer's arm. Couldn't see it. There wasn't enough time to react to a ref's call of "Ball Out", even if the ref yelled it at the top of his lungs the moment he released it (which was a fraction of a second before Palmer was hit). And there's no way to stop one's momentum while in mid air.

And you might want to watch the end of that play again. Kimo could have done any number of things to exacerbate the situation. He could have kept rolling. He could have wrenched the leg or tried to keep his legs moving. But he didn't. In fact, as soon as Kimo figured out what the situation was, he let go of Palmer's leg and made every effort to discontinue contact. Again, Kimo would have rolled that knee over had he no arms at all. Frankly, I'm astounded that Palmer's leg wasn't snapped in two- and it might have been had Kimo not had that arm down to partially support his weight.

And if that was a late hit, then the NFL does just need to abolish the pass rush. A late hit is not a hit that happens at any point after the QB releases the ball. The ref has to be able to perceive that there is an opportunity (i.e. enough time) for the defensive player to do something different than connect with the QB. In this case, there simply wasn't. Happened too fast. Palmer was hit even before the camera tracking the play had panned him offscreen. Happened so fast that Palmer wasn't able to transfer weight to his right leg, which is why his left leg gave out. I have little doubt that we'd have seen less damage done had the hit actually BEEN truly late because then Palmer wouldn't have had all his weight on that leg.

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 06:20 PM
Right. Defender is going down to the ground- partially aided by the offensive lineman who shoved him in the direction of his QB's legs. And said defender should make no effort whatsoever to tackle the guy he's supposed to tackle.

It wasn't the arm that did the damage. It was the shoulder and that shoulder would have rolled that knee regardless even if football players were taught to tuck their arms in and make no effort to tackle the guy they think has the football.

Heck, why don't we just ban the pass rush entirely and be done with it.



Like FCB's phantom "whirlygig" move, neither of those things happened.

I swear, the way the tales of this event continue to escalate I'm certain that one day we're going to hear a Bengals fan tell his grandchildren about the time a Pittsburgh player took out a gun and shot Carson Palmer in the leg as he was walking back to the huddle.


You're right--from that angle (from the Bengals' site--which was not CBS's replay angle, which is what I was going on) Kimo's even more guilty--he dove RIGHT AT Palmer's knee with NO help from the OL--merely a brush of the hand on the ass. From that angle it looks EVEN MORE intentional. Wow. That was a flat-out clipping. I was willing to give Kimo some benefit of the doubt, that part of the problem might have been that he lost his balance. But no way--the dude flew like Superman into Palmer's knee. Freaking egregious.

Johnny Footstool
01-09-2006, 06:35 PM
And if that was a late hit, then the NFL does just need to abolish the pass rush. A late hit is not a hit that happens at any point after the QB releases the ball. The ref has to be able to perceive that there is an opportunity (i.e. enough time) for the defensive player to do something different than connect with the QB. In this case, there simply wasn't.

Gotta disagree there.

The point is, he didn't just "connect" with the QB. He had time to wrap his arm around Palmer's leg. That's easy for anyone to perceive, even a referee.

That means he could have at least tried to stop himself. But he didn't.

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 06:39 PM
I mean, come on--it's of a piece with the gameplan for a team like the Steelers against a young phenom QB--"shake him up; get him off his game; rattle him with some overzealous stabs." Any penalty against the Steelers at that point in the game would be easily outweighed for them by the benefit of rattling the Bengals' MVP. That was a thunderous stab.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 07:31 PM
You're right--from that angle (from the Bengals' site--which was not CBS's replay angle, which is what I was going on) Kimo's even more guilty--he dove RIGHT AT Palmer's knee with NO help from the OL--merely a brush of the hand on the ass. From that angle it looks EVEN MORE intentional. Wow. That was a flat-out clipping. I was willing to give Kimo some benefit of the doubt, that part of the problem might have been that he lost his balance. But no way--the dude flew like Superman into Palmer's knee. Freaking egregious.

Whatever. First you try to tell me that Kimo pulled a spin move, and now Kimo "flew" into him. Yeah. Offensive lineman didn't have anything to do with where he went. Right.

300-pound defensive lineman drives full force ahead while attempting to get to the QB. Offensive lineman applies force, then releases right hand (throwing Kimo off balance), turns him into Palmer, and with left hand continues to push him off balance toward Palmer- resulting in unavoidable contact with the QB's leg during his follow-through. I'm not sure if you've ever tried to push someone off-balance when they're already off-balance, but it sure as heck doesn't require a ton of force.

Quit acting as if Kimo flew unabated into Palmer with reckless abandon while striking him with full intent well after he'd released the ball. Just like the phantom spin move, the helmet spearing, and leg twisting I heard about earlier, that just didn't happen. It's unfortunate that Kimo's path to Palmer was affected by an offensive lineman who must not have known where Palmer was. But unfortunate is as far as this one goes.

SteelSD
01-09-2006, 07:35 PM
Gotta disagree there.

The point is, he didn't just "connect" with the QB. He had time to wrap his arm around Palmer's leg. That's easy for anyone to perceive, even a referee.

That means he could have at least tried to stop himself. But he didn't.

You can't stop yourself mid-air while falling. No one can. And yes, a referee can perceive that as well. And Kimo was wrapping his arm AS he was falling into him. I don't understand what else you expected him to do. I'm really at a loss on that key point. HOW was he supposed to "stop" himself while falling into the QB?

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 07:38 PM
Whatever. First you try to tell me that Kimo pulled a spin move, and now Kimo "flew" into him. Yeah. Offensive lineman didn't have anything to do with where he went. Right.

300-pound defensive lineman drives full force ahead while attempting to get to the QB. Offensive lineman applies force, then releases right hand (throwing Kimo off balance), turns him into Palmer, and with left hand continues to push him off balance toward Palmer- resulting in unavoidable contact with the QB's leg during his follow-through. I'm not sure if you've ever tried to push someone off-balance when they're already off-balance, but it sure as heck doesn't require a ton of force.

Quit acting as if Kimo flew unabated into Palmer with reckless abandon while striking him with full intent well after he'd released the ball. Just like the phantom spin move, the helmet spearing, and leg twisting I heard about earlier, that just didn't happen. It's unfortunate that Kimo's path to Palmer was affected by an offensive lineman who must not have known where Palmer was. But unfortunate is as far as this one goes.

The OL had NOTHING to do with Kimo's angle of attack. Nothing. Erase the O lineman from that film and Kimo spears Palmer's knee from the side unaided. Period. Malicious? Who cares? I don't know. Intentionally low hit (late is debatable, that much I agree with you about)? God yes.

Betterread
01-09-2006, 09:10 PM
It really is impossible to determine the malicious intent of a late hit. It is very difficult to tell from replays or from the stands whether a player is trying to hold up or whether he is out of control.
The Steelers feel that they are a "physical" team, and they feel like "establishing" this "fact" is a part of their game plan. At the beginning of the game, the Steelers were blocking and posturing after the play in a really excessive way. The refs called no fouls, then there was the late hit on Palmer.
Its really up to the NFL's administrators if they want to protect skill players from late hits. If I were part of the NFL admins., I would be disgusted with the Steelers and their game plan and how that impacted this game.
Bengals fans - don't feel badly. You got a bad break, but that's the NFL playoffs. You'll get good breaks eventually. Palmer will come back, although training camp should be a pleasant surprise, rather than an expectation. Think more like mid-season for Palmer to return to form.
In the meantime, the Steelers are on the decline. You will be crushing them frequently in the next few years. When the Steelers are woeful, though, don't forget this loss and this hit and take great pleasure for every time you rout them.

GAC
01-09-2006, 09:24 PM
Why do people use his reaction to defend a very obviously deliberate late-hit? I'm sure he didn't mean to send Palmer into paroxysms of pain, but the guy steamrolled Palmer's knee wantonly, well after he had chucked the football--he wasn't going on forward inertia and he wasn't tackled into Palmer. He rolled. He meant to cheap shot, but not to injure. When he did injure, he regretted it. Why is that so hard to fathom?

Maybe because those were his reactions immediately after the play, and after the game. I'm also going on players who know and have played with Kimo, and have come out in his defense.

So I disagree with you. It's simply that.

And no one hates the Steelers and Bill Cowher more then I. ;)

Its real easy for people to go find pictures - slow them down, creates stills, etc., and try to make this look like a cheap shot. And I understand people are angry and upset over Palmer getting seriously injured. It's understandable.

Watch the replay - he was in no position, and had no idea that Palmer had already released the ball. We're talking about a play that happens in a matter of seconds.

As rfs already stated, and I agree...


Didn't look dirty at all to me. Things move so fast on every play in the NFL. You can't do a slow motion replay analysis and do justice to the speed and violence on every play.

Could a late hit flag have been thrown by the refs. Possibly yes. But again, Kimo had no idea that the ball had already been thrown.

GAC
01-09-2006, 09:30 PM
Even if Kimo couldn't see that the ball was released, that doesn't give him license to make a late hit.

Listen to what you are saying? If he doesn't know the ball has been released, then how can it mean license for a late hit?

Yes - I can understand it if a ref sees it and throws a flag (thats the ref's responsibility - that is their job). Where was the flag? Is that Kimo's fault?

GAC
01-09-2006, 09:40 PM
The photos are nice, but in the second one, someone forgot to circle Kimo's arm, which is "unintentionally" wrapped tightly around Palmer's lower leg.

When you are knocked to the ground, how or where are you suppose to try and tackle a guy at? You're down there. That is the only place to grab. Is there a rules change all of a sudden? So what if he grabs the QB around the legs trying to tackle him? That's illegal or should be termed a malicious hit?

I find it interesting that players are taught that the best way to take a runner down is hit them low and take their legs out from under them - don't hit them high. And I understand the justification for rules to try and protect the QB (hits to the helmet, etc). But I've seen two of my Brown's players go down in the last 2 years with the same trype of injuries during play (torn ACL's) in Winslow and Edwards. Theirs were not deemed committed by malicious hits; but Palmers is.

Maybe they need to change the rules to two handed touch below the waste on QB's only. ;)

GAC
01-09-2006, 09:42 PM
Right. Defender is going down to the ground- partially aided by the offensive lineman who shoved him in the direction of his QB's legs. And said defender should make no effort whatsoever to tackle the guy he's supposed to tackle.

It wasn't the arm that did the damage. It was the shoulder and that shoulder would have rolled that knee regardless even if football players were taught to tuck their arms in and make no effort to tackle the guy they think has the football.

Heck, why don't we just ban the pass rush entirely and be done with it.



Like FCB's phantom "whirlygig" move, neither of those things happened.

I swear, the way the tales of this event continue to escalate I'm certain that one day we're going to hear a Bengals fan tell his grandchildren about the time a Pittsburgh player took out a gun and shot Carson Palmer in the leg as he was walking back to the huddle.


:lol:

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 09:46 PM
Maybe because those were his reactions immediately after the play, and after the game. I'm also going on players who know and have played with Kimo, and have come out in his defense.

So I disagree with you. It's simply that.

And no one hates the Steelers and Bill Cowher more then I. ;)

Its real easy for people to go find pictures - slow them down, creates stills, etc., and try to make this look like a cheap shot. And I understand people are angry and upset over Palmer getting seriously injured. It's understandable.

Watch the replay - he was in no position, and had no idea that Palmer had already released the ball. We're talking about a play that happens in a matter of seconds.

As rfs already stated, and I agree...



Could a late hit flag have been thrown by the refs. Possibly yes. But again, Kimo had no idea that the ball had already been thrown.


I really don't care about the Bengals. I never followed them. But Kimo headed towards Palmer's knee for a reason. And it wasn't *merely* to tackle him. Watch that clip that Steel posted. His trajectory could have landed him nowhere else but into the side of Palmer's knee.

To watch the behavior of the rest of the team throughout the game, it's ridiculous to see this play as being anything but a punkout attempt by a bunch of tough guy idiots who bring their "aggressive" (read: meatheaded) style of play to show-up a kid phenom.

Yeah, accidents happen in football. This wasn't one of them. It was wanton, careless, and bush as hell.

Falls City Beer
01-09-2006, 09:47 PM
When you are knocked to the ground, how or where are you suppose to try and tackle a guy at?

He was not knocked down. At all. Kimo dove and the O lineman did an "ole" as he went past.

TeamBoone
01-09-2006, 10:38 PM
Ok then, forget the late hit... but what about the illegal hit?

KittyDuran
01-09-2006, 10:43 PM
I agree. Did Kimo intend to injure Palmer as severely as he did? Probably not. Did he intentionally hit him late? Yes. Did the Steelers essentially win the game as a result? Absolutely.
Several movies quotes have been running through my mind. I realize my thoughts are probably unfair and not exactly peaceful.
Sean Connery as "Jim Malone" in "The Untouchables" explained to Kevin Costner's "Elliott Ness" how to get Al Capone: "They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue." The Steelers pulled a knife, sent Palmer to the hospital and got away with it.
Accident? John Wayne in "Big Jake" to Richard Boone: "And you understand. Anything goes wrong, anything at all--your fault, my fault, nobody's fault--it won't matter--I'm gonna blow your head off."
Yes, those quotes are extreme, and make-believe as well--and, yes, on refelction, my "better angels" would probably make me regret even having the thoughts.......I just hope the Colts whip the Steelers 75-0.What about the Duke in "The Quiet Man" talking to the Reverend about the reason why he quit fighting:
“Tony Gadelo was a good egg... nice little wife and home, a couple of kids, clean fighter. But I didn’t go in there to out box him. I went in there to beat his brains out, to drive him into the canvas, to murder him. That’s what I did. For what? Purse? Piece of the gate? Lousy money.”

Playadlc
01-09-2006, 10:48 PM
Quit acting as if Kimo flew unabated into Palmer with reckless abandon while striking him with full intent well after he'd released the ball. Just like the phantom spin move, the helmet spearing, and leg twisting I heard about earlier, that just didn't happen. It's unfortunate that Kimo's path to Palmer was affected by an offensive lineman who must not have known where Palmer was. But unfortunate is as far as this one goes.

I have watched the video probably 20 times, and Kimo is not propelled into Palmer. Steinbach did have his left arm on the backside of Kimo, but that didn't alter Kimo's motion. I mean, if he was pushed into Palmer, he would have accelerated into his knee, which he didn't. His speed never changed.

It's pretty obvious that he went low intentionally. Did he mean to tear his leg up? I don't think so, but he did go to far by diving right into his knees.

RFS62
01-09-2006, 11:40 PM
You guys ever play football?

It's not that easy to totally control your every movement when you're rushing the passer. You talk like he's a robot or something, completely programmable.

Things in the NFL happen at light speed. You're analyzing a slow motion replay and projecting your bias.

It's a violent game, played at incredible speed.

westofyou
01-10-2006, 12:49 AM
It's a violent game, played at incredible speed.By bowling bowls and jackhammers.

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 01:17 AM
The OL had NOTHING to do with Kimo's angle of attack. Nothing. Erase the O lineman from that film and Kimo spears Palmer's knee from the side unaided. Period. Malicious? Who cares? I don't know. Intentionally low hit (late is debatable, that much I agree with you about)? God yes.

When you drive full force into an object that resists you and said object releases one side of your body while still engaging your other, you're most likely going to fall off-balance to the released side, particularly if you're a 300-pound guy who's not trained in ballet...or ninjitsu. At that point, little force is required to aid you in falling further off-balance.

The offensive lineman had a TON to do with where Kimo went and how he got there. Erase the offensive lineman, and Kimo smacks Palmer sooner and higher.

WMR
01-10-2006, 03:34 AM
Steel, you are wrong here. Kimo chose to deliver that blow. That's the crucial point. He chose to attack Carson in the manner that he did. He was never forced to maul Palmer's knee in a vicious "controlled" "accidental" "Roll".

That tackle should never be made in the first place. That's the crucial point. Watch the replay, no one forced to him attack Palmer like that. You Don't Make That PLAY. EVER.

Speaking as someone who was at the game, it was like every ounce of oxygen was sucked out of the stadium when Palmer was injured. The pre-game atmosphere was truly something special, but it truly was a palpatable sensation that swept through the stadium when Carson left the field.

When we stopped them that first series and Carson threw that bomb, it was so obvious that we were going to romp. The crowd was unbelievable. Really unfortunate that a dirty team like the Steelers had to bring such an abrupt and unfair ending to the festivities.

WMR
01-10-2006, 03:37 AM
P.S.

Enjoy the spanking from the Colts this weekend.

My advice to Tony Dungy?

Keep both backs pulled in and tell them to watch Peyton's back.

stay classy pittsburgh.

WMR
01-10-2006, 04:30 AM
Did someone say that Von Oelhoffen is studying to become an actor??

If so, his success certainly will not hinge on not having had ample practice.

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 05:53 AM
Steel, you are wrong here. Kimo chose to deliver that blow. That's the crucial point. He chose to attack Carson in the manner that he did. He was never forced to maul Palmer's knee in a vicious "controlled" "accidental" "Roll".

Considering that you later claim to have been at the game, I'm surprised you don't seem to understand the speed the game unfolds at. I would, however, like to know how a "vicious controlled accidental roll" can possibly be planned by a bull-rushing interior lineman who gets to the QB two to three times a year. Was there dance practice before hand?


That tackle should never be made in the first place. That's the crucial point. Watch the replay, no one forced to him attack Palmer like that. You Don't Make That PLAY. EVER.

That play wouldn't have been possible had the Bengals offensive lineman blocked an INTERIOR LINEMAN in a way that didn't turn him into the QB. Kimo was NOT an end speed-rush guy who took an unabated path to the QB. That's why no penalty was called, BTW. Well, that and the fact that there was zero opportunity for Kimo to do anything resembling stopping in mid-air.


Speaking as someone who was at the game, it was like every ounce of oxygen was sucked out of the stadium when Palmer was injured. The pre-game atmosphere was truly something special, but it truly was a palpatable sensation that swept through the stadium when Carson left the field.

I'm sure that had to suck. In fact, it would suck for a fan of any team that just lost it's starting QB (if that QB was any good). I took no pleasure in that freak injury and was openly concerned about Palmer.


When we stopped them that first series and Carson threw that bomb, it was so obvious that we were going to romp. The crowd was unbelievable. Really unfortunate that a dirty team like the Steelers had to bring such an abrupt and unfair ending to the festivities.

Ah, and here comes the concept that the Bengals would have "routed" the Steelers with Carson Palmer at QB. Just to remind you, the Bengals lost to Pitt with Palmer at QB this season. Jon Kitna played the half of his LIFE after Palmer went down. The Bengals didn't punt until 1:25 was remaining in the first half. And the Bengals still couldn't stop Pitt from scoring. Why? Because the Bengals' defense is an opportunistic sieve. I do believe I've mentioned that before. Pitt put up point totals of 27, 31, and 31 against the Bengals this season.

If you, as a fan, were at all "deflated" after your team went into the half with a 17-14 lead against a team that finished with the same record as you, that doesn't mean a dang thing to me.

Do you realize how quickly Pittsburgh scored on their drives? Exactly one took up as much as four minutes (and it was a field goal). A 20 yard screen pass. A 54 yard completion. A 40-yard Pass Interference call (which was Pass Interference). A 43-year flea-flicker. A 25-yard Bettis run.

I couldn't care less if the Bengals players (much less fans) were allegedly "deflated" after losing Carson Palmer. If they were, then that's a lack of professionalism and it highlights the team's lack of playoff experience. The Bengals weren't looking to count on an untested second-string QB at that point. They were putting Jon Kitna in the game- a guy who's had a good deal of success before, knows the offense, and wasn't at all rusty after playing the previous week. In short, Jon Kitna is no Tommy Maddox in all the good ways that Jon Kitna is no Tommy Maddox.

Pitt played New England a few years ago in the playoffs and Tom Brady went down. Drew Bledsoe took over cold off the bench and smacked them silly. Why? Because the Patriots actually had something resembling a defense.

See, defense is important. If the Bengals get one, then you can start talking about obvious "routs". Until then, that claim is an absurdity.

Redsfaithful
01-10-2006, 07:11 AM
A 40-yard Pass Interference call (which was Pass Interference).

No, it really wasn't. The officiating was terrible, and that was one of the worst examples.

Steel, you're being intellectually dishonest if you think that there's not a world of difference between Kitna and Palmer. The Bengals lost because Palmer went down, not because of their defense. If Palmer stayed in the game then the Bengals would have easily scored more than 31 points. The entire complexion of the game would have changed, the Bengals wouldn't have come out so flat in the second half (which was apparently caused by some sort of halftime incident in the locker room that probably wouldn't have happened if Palmer was still healthy), and Ben would have had to throw more than 19 times or whatever it was. And when the Steelers have to pass they lose. I'm sure they'll have to put the ball in the air 35+ times this weekend and we'll all get to see what an elite quarterback Ben Roethlisberger really is.

I guarantee the Colts are thrilled to be playing the Steelers as opposed to a Carson Palmer led Bengals team.

Come Sunday none of this is really going to matter anymore. Go Colts!

GAC
01-10-2006, 09:04 AM
You guys ever play football?

It's not that easy to totally control your every movement when you're rushing the passer. You talk like he's a robot or something, completely programmable.

Things in the NFL happen at light speed. You're analyzing a slow motion replay and projecting your bias.

It's a violent game, played at incredible speed.

I agree, but you're wasting your time. ;)

GAC
01-10-2006, 09:21 AM
No, it really wasn't. The officiating was terrible, and that was one of the worst examples.

Steel, you're being intellectually dishonest if you think that there's not a world of difference between Kitna and Palmer. The Bengals lost because Palmer went down, not because of their defense. If Palmer stayed in the game then the Bengals would have easily scored more than 31 points. The entire complexion of the game would have changed, the Bengals wouldn't have come out so flat in the second half (which was apparently caused by some sort of halftime incident in the locker room that probably wouldn't have happened if Palmer was still healthy), and Ben would have had to throw more than 19 times or whatever it was. And when the Steelers have to pass they lose. I'm sure they'll have to put the ball in the air 35+ times this weekend and we'll all get to see what an elite quarterback Ben Roethlisberger really is.

I guarantee the Colts are thrilled to be playing the Steelers as opposed to a Carson Palmer led Bengals team.

Come Sunday none of this is really going to matter anymore. Go Colts!

I agree with you that the Colts should have no problem with the Steelers. They'd have no problem with the "latter season" Bengals either.

To say the Bengals lost solely because Palmer went down is somehow being blind to the fact of how this Bengals team played (very poorly) on both sides of the ball over these last several weeks. They mentioned it on Fox Sports before the game, and showed the stats - over the last 7 games, the Bengals defense was one of the worst in the NFL. They averaged giving up 31 pts/game, 120 yds rushing, 240 yds passing. That's just what the Steelers scored too. You aren't going far in the post-season with a performance like that - PERIOD! And IMO, Manning and offene would have feasted on the Bengal's secondary because this secondary was not playing like it had earlier in the season.

Yes - it's possible that with palmer in there they would have made it a closer game, and maybe won. But I still gave the edge to the Steelers based on this "slide" by the Bengals and the Steeler's playoff experience.

And the Bengals will be back. So will Palmer. And Lewis knows they have some huge deficiencies/holes to fill on defense.

GAC
01-10-2006, 09:21 AM
dbl post :D

rdiersin
01-10-2006, 10:57 AM
No, it really wasn't. The officiating was terrible, and that was one of the worst examples.


I thought it was PI, but I also thought that the play on TJ in the end zone of the previous series, I think, was also PI. That's why the officiating was terrible. They were pretty much the same play, yet called differently. That's always the trademark of bad officiating.

savafan
01-10-2006, 11:48 AM
Listen to what you are saying? If he doesn't know the ball has been released, then how can it mean license for a late hit?

Yes - I can understand it if a ref sees it and throws a flag (thats the ref's responsibility - that is their job). Where was the flag? Is that Kimo's fault?

What I was saying is that Kimo not knowing the ball had been released shouldn't be a valid excuse for the refs not to throw the flag for a late hit. If that was the case, then I'd expect all defensive linemen in the future to play with their heads down or eyes shut. It was simply poor officiating.

gonelong
01-10-2006, 11:48 AM
Jon Kitna played the half of his LIFE after Palmer went down.

So what? How'd he do the 2nd half?



Because the Bengals' defense is an opportunistic sieve. I do believe I've mentioned that before. Pitt put up point totals of 27, 31, and 31 against the Bengals this season.

Those 2 interceptions in the 2nd half didn't help the cause, and neither did the sack Kitna took followed up by his fumble to kill a drive. Kitna took 4 sacks because he can't get through his progressions as fast as Palmer.

The game was a coin-flip before Palmer went down, and Cincy was looking to grab the early advantage. Would the Bengals have won? Nobody knows, but the chasm between Palmer and Kitna is huge, big 1st half out of Kitna nonwithstanding. Palmer ended the season with a 101 QB rating, I can't image Kitna had a better than 70 rating for the game.

I have it DVR'd so I'll check on it tonight.

GL

deltachi8
01-10-2006, 12:32 PM
Let it go people, let it go now. I speak from experience - the 1999 Stanley Cub FInals - the "No Goal" of Brett Hull against my Sabres. It pained me for months and was not worth it.

The Benagls had a hell of a season and will be better next year because of this game. They learned something Sunday that no coach or playbook can teach, playoff experience, how to handle it.

gonelong
01-10-2006, 12:33 PM
Let it go people, let it go now. I speak from experience - the 1999 Stanley Cub FInals - the "No Goal" of Brett Hull against my Sabres. It pained me for months and was not worth it.

I'm still upset about the OSU/Texas game. :angry:

:laugh:

GL

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 12:43 PM
No, it really wasn't. The officiating was terrible, and that was one of the worst examples.

No. The worst example was the Personal Foul called on the Bengals when neither the defender or offensive Steelers player didn't realize they were a step or two out of bounds. And that was Pass Interference. See, you have to wait for the ball to arrive before you can mess with a receiver.


Steel, you're being intellectually dishonest if you think that there's not a world of difference between Kitna and Palmer.

Now go find where I said there wasn't. Positioning a strawman and then calling someone else "intellectually dishonest" isn't a real valid debate tactic. It's actually the opposite of "valid debate tactic".


The Bengals lost because Palmer went down, not because of their defense. If Palmer stayed in the game then the Bengals would have easily scored more than 31 points.

So your entire hope this playoffs rested on the concept that the Bengals offense would consistently score more than 31 points?

You're a Reds fan. You should know the serious issues present with a plan that consists of needing to constantly outscore your own defense.


The entire complexion of the game would have changed, the Bengals wouldn't have come out so flat in the second half (which was apparently caused by some sort of halftime incident in the locker room that probably wouldn't have happened if Palmer was still healthy), and Ben would have had to throw more than 19 times or whatever it was.

What could have happened isn't necessarily what would have happened. I'm not sure at what point you believed that it was impossible to lose that game, but it was possible to lose it. In fact, the Steelers beat the Palmer-led Bengals in that stadium once before this season. That actually happened.

And if there was a halftime incident in the locker room that supposedly led to a lack of drive entering the second half, well that's just immaturity. Doesn't happen to true professionals. Something bad happens. You either overcome it or you don't. But I'll be darned if I'm going to start caring about excuses as to why a team that played flawless ball in the first half and entered the half with a lead abruptly stopped caring with 15:00 on the clock in the third quarter. There are reasons and then there are excuses. Palmer fits in the "reason" category. Officiating and "halftime incidents" lean the other direction.

You can tell yourself over and over again that was an obvious win with Palmer at the helm, but it just ain't so. Makes for good rivalry building fodder I suppose. But a better rivalry builder woud be if ol' Marv figured out what a defense looked like.


And when the Steelers have to pass they lose. I'm sure they'll have to put the ball in the air 35+ times this weekend and we'll all get to see what an elite quarterback Ben Roethlisberger really is.

Your first sentence is pure fallacy. Pitt can win when throwing the ball and they can lose when throwing the ball- just like any other NFL team. The key is not to make mistakes. And if you haven't figured it out yet, Roethisberger and Carson Palmer are as near performance clones as you can get.

Ben Roethlisberger and Co. just beat you with his arm. Couldn't care less that he needed only 19 throws while playing near-perfect football to do it. You just saw an "elite" QB beat you. Appears you didn't so much notice that. Oh well.


I guarantee the Colts are thrilled to be playing the Steelers as opposed to a Carson Palmer led Bengals team.

The only thing I can rightly "guarantee" is that the Colts would prefer they be able to advance to the AFC Championship without needing to take the field at all next week.

Everything else is pure conjecture.

westofyou
01-10-2006, 12:46 PM
You guys still here?

This thing's gonna last longer than Turk Schonert's career.

savafan
01-10-2006, 12:49 PM
But a better rivalry builder woud be if ol' Marv figured out what a defense looked like.





You know Marvin has to know what a defense looks like. I seem to remember he had a pretty good one at Baltimore.

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 01:01 PM
So what? How'd he do the 2nd half?

Those 2 interceptions in the 2nd half didn't help the cause, and neither did the sack Kitna took followed up by his fumble to kill a drive. Kitna took 4 sacks because he can't get through his progressions as fast as Palmer.

The game was a coin-flip before Palmer went down, and Cincy was looking to grab the early advantage. Would the Bengals have won? Nobody knows, but the chasm between Palmer and Kitna is huge, big 1st half out of Kitna nonwithstanding. Palmer ended the season with a 101 QB rating, I can't image Kitna had a better than 70 rating for the game.

I have it DVR'd so I'll check on it tonight.

GL

Here's the thing...

Any case for the "rout" scenario not only includes Carson Palmer staying healthy, but it also includes the assumption that he would have certainly played mistake-free football. Could he have? Maybe. But he could have looked as bad as he did against Pitt the first time around or Cleveland.

Palmer's a great QB. But he's not incapable of performing as did a Jon Kitna (good or bad). I know you know that. But it appears that he's a more mythical beast to others.

Roy Tucker
01-10-2006, 01:06 PM
You guys still here?

This thing's gonna last longer than Turk Schonert's career.
You're still here? It's over!
http://www.80s.com/saveferris/images/ferris/over.jpg

Heath
01-10-2006, 01:09 PM
You guys still here?

This thing's gonna last longer than Turk Schonert's career.

How about Jack Thompson, the Throwin' Samoan'

http://www.bengals.com/images/history/thompson_jack.jpg

I think this thread has lasted longer than Bengals Run Defense. :D

gonelong
01-10-2006, 01:15 PM
Here's the thing...

Any case for the "rout" scenario ...

Never made one.

You only need to win by 1. Like I said, it was a coin flip before Palmer went down. It was pretty much a 90/10 deal afterwards, it was only a matter of time before PIT exposed Kitna.

Heck, if you take two pass plays, the one was called for interference and the other was not and swap just those calls the game is likely knotted up or only a score away from it. Those plays were very similar.

I think your working from the assumption that it was Pitts game to lose, I'm not.

GL

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 02:36 PM
Never made one.

Never said you did. Was commenting on the scenario someone else positioned.


You only need to win by 1. Like I said, it was a coin flip before Palmer went down. It was pretty much a 90/10 deal afterwards, it was only a matter of time before PIT exposed Kitna.

Hmn. I'm not sure how a game that goes to halftime with the home team up by three was a 90/10 scenario after play two of the first half. And please note that Palmer had played just as badly (actually a little worse than Kitna's end result) versus Pitt during their first meeting this year.

From my perspective, any "90/10" scenario would have to include the assumption that Carson Palmer would have played 100% mistake-free football all day long while leading the Bengals to their 6th highest point total this season in his first playoff start in the Bengals third game this season against a team that had already made him look bad. I'm just not sure how that assumption is any kind of reasonable.

We DID see a dropoff in talent level with Palmer going out. But did we actually see a dropoff in performance level? Maybe. If so, was the performance gap a two TD+FG dropoff? That is, IMHO, a stretch.


Heck, if you take two pass plays, the one was called for interference and the other was not and swap just those calls the game is likely knotted up or only a score away from it. Those plays were very similar.

If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.


I think your working from the assumption that it was Pitts game to lose, I'm not.

Not at all. In fact, with Cinci playing at home, I figured it was closer to 60/40 in their favor at kickoff. Vegas disagreed, of course. Maybe they figured that Roethlisberger not having a splint on his thumb this time around would be the difference. I don't know. But the Bengals took a 17-14 lead into the half and then came out and layed a huge egg in the 2nd half. The whole team.

Jpup
01-10-2006, 02:45 PM
In the grand shcheme of things, all of this doesn't really matter at all. Indy would mop either one of them. I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that. :thumbup:

traderumor
01-10-2006, 02:55 PM
Not that it matters, but anyone who follows any NFL game knows that losing your starting QB on offensive play #2 changes everything. Add to that the starting QB is the 2nd best QB in the league, and it is ridiculous to suggest that similar results were obtained with Kitna, so all things are essentially equal.

For example, the 2nd half rally was made much easier thanks to a couple of very Kitna-like INTs. The offense also could not sustain a drive after the first one of the second half, not a likely scenario with Palmer in there, thus exposing the defense even more. Not to mention Bratkowski was quoted as even saying they had to go to different offensive schemes because of dramatic personnel changes. Not to mention the psychological destruction that was obvious.

One should shudder to think what would have happened with Palmer in there since Kitna torched the D in the first half.

traderumor
01-10-2006, 02:57 PM
In the grand shcheme of things, all of this doesn't really matter at all. Indy would mop either one of them. I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that. :thumbup:You mean like Indy mopped up the Bengals first time around? ;) Now the Squealers got their clock cleaned, but the Bengals match up well with the Colts.

deltachi8
01-10-2006, 03:17 PM
You mean like Indy mopped up the Bengals first time around? ;) Now the Squealers got their clock cleaned, but the Bengals match up well with the Colts.

If its a track meet, then yes, the Bengals match up well.

traderumor
01-10-2006, 03:23 PM
In good news, it appears that Palmer will be back for all or most of next season. Obviously, a lot of things have to go right, but thank goodness for advances in sports med or he'd probably be done.

kyred14
01-10-2006, 03:56 PM
Not to be picky, but if the Bengals had won, they would be playing the Broncos this week.

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 04:04 PM
Not that it matters, but anyone who follows any NFL game knows that losing your starting QB on offensive play #2 changes everything. Add to that the starting QB is the 2nd best QB in the league, and it is ridiculous to suggest that similar results were obtained with Kitna, so all things are essentially equal.

Really? Ridiculous, eh?

21-36, 227 Yards- 0 TD, 2 INT, 53.8 Passer Rating

22-38, 227 Yards- 3 TD, 0 INT, 101.5 Passer Rating

Which one of those performances is Carson Palmer's?


For example, the 2nd half rally was made much easier thanks to a couple of very Kitna-like INTs.

Yeah, Pitt really "rallied" with all of three points off those two turnovers. That 2nd-half rally was made much easier by a botched FG attempt (that would have put Cinci up by 6) and a defense that hasn't been able to stop anyone from doing much of anything. Doesn't seem to me that either of those things had much of anything to do with Carson Palmer.

If things were different they wouldn't be the same. But why is it that folks who tell me that things would have been different constantly assume that "different" is always spelled "better"? Could it have been better? Sure. Could have been worse too.

And y'know, Carson Palmer isn't INT-proof. Guy threw five picks over his last three games. He's a great QB, mind you. But he's not perfection incarnate.


The offense also could not sustain a drive after the first one of the second half, not a likely scenario with Palmer in there, thus exposing the defense even more.

Uh-huh. Bengals punt once before the botched FG attempt. Scored 17 points they did. Bengals were 6-0 in 2005 when allowing less than 17 points. They were 1-4 when allowing 30 or more. It's all well and good to assume that Palmer would have led the Bengals to their sixth-highest point total of the season versus a team that's allowed more than 30 points once, but that's just not the way things always work out.


Not to mention Bratkowski was quoted as even saying they had to go to different offensive schemes because of dramatic personnel changes. Not to mention the psychological destruction that was obvious.

The Bengals get no points for lack of mental toughness. Seemed to me that the offensive schemes were working. And then suddenly they didn't. But that had everything to do with Jon Kitna and nothing to do with the other team that was on the field. Uh-huh.


One should shudder to think what would have happened with Palmer in there since Kitna torched the D in the first half.

Yeah, they might have lost by less. Or maybe more? Or possibly won. Or not. I dunno. So many questions. Too few answers. None of it capable of being so readily assumed as you suggest.

Carson Palmer goes down and the legend of the unbeatable mistake-proof Carson Palmer rises in his stead. Sounds like Palmer should have waited until after his injury to sign that contract as now it appears he deserves a lot more money. Y'know, for being perfect and all.

Johnny Footstool
01-10-2006, 04:34 PM
Sorry I missed so much of this, but I would like to address an earlier point:


HOW was he supposed to "stop" himself while falling into the QB?

That's incredibly easy. He could have straightened his right arm and planted it on the ground to absorb his fall. Instead, he wrapped it around Palmer's leg.

Late hit.


The Bengals get no points for lack of mental toughness. Seemed to me that the offensive schemes were working. And then suddenly they didn't. But that had everything to do with Jon Kitna and nothing to do with the other team that was on the field. Uh-huh.

Kitna was afraid to throw into coverage, and he was generally afraid to throw to the sidelines. The schemes that were working were passes over the middle to Walter and Schobel. The Steelers took the middle away, and Kitna started panicking, holding onto the ball or forcing it (just like he did last week in KC). The Steelers made an adjustment, and Kitna couldn't handle it. Both contributed to what happened in the second half.

traderumor
01-10-2006, 05:05 PM
Steel,

You forgot to post the performance in Heinz Field for Carson, I suppose since it didn't fit your line of arguing. I know you are trying real hard to come to the conclusion that the Squealers are simply the better team regardless of the injury. From what I can see, about the only thing I've agreed on with you is that these are two pretty even teams (I think it was you that said that), so it would seem that putting in a mediocre QB for nearly the entire game is going to have a significant impact on the rest of the game, regardless of how you try to explain away by "Kitna did great." Yea, for a half, everyone knows that. But it was obvious he didn't have what it took in round 2. But the Squealers just won the game straight up? Unfortunately, a DLman decided to make that not possible.

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 05:19 PM
That's incredibly easy. He could have straightened his right arm and planted it on the ground to absorb his fall. Instead, he wrapped it around Palmer's leg.

Late hit.

Go watch the video replay again. Kimo's shoulder connected with Palmer's knee before the arm wrapped. Kimo could have put his arm straight out and that knee would have still been toast. It actually could have been worse. At that angle, with that kind of momentum, 300-pound bowling balls don't stop on a dime like that. But frankly, he shouldn't have been expected to. Kimo wasn't trying to wrap up at the knee. He targetted the area below the calf. Surely you've seen NFL pass rushers trip up a QB that way, haven't you? Guy was in a scrum. Saw the ballcarrier's ankle. Went for said ankle. Didn't get said ankle with surgical precision, but he certainly wasn't targetting the knee.

And no. It wasn't a late hit. Kimo was not coming around the end unabated to the QB, nor do we have any reason to believe he knew that Palmer was in his follow-through instead of holding the ball. We see the same timing on QB "Knockdowns" all the time- including hits by players who, unlike Kimo, may have actually been able to stop their momentum. If that hit was late, then the NFL needs to create a new rule stating that pass rushers may only do jumping jacks in front of QB's.


Kitna was afraid to throw into coverage, and he was generally afraid to throw to the sidelines. The schemes that were working were passes over the middle to Walter and Schobel. The Steelers took the middle away, and Kitna started panicking, holding onto the ball or forcing it (just like he did last week in KC). The Steelers made an adjustment, and Kitna couldn't handle it. Both contributed to what happened in the second half.

And yet, not much of that had to do with the 31 points the Steelers scored. Basically, I'm seeing more than one Bengals fan demand that Carson Palmer should have been worth 17 additional points versus Jon Kitna in that game (I'm not saying you are...I hope). That's a BOLD assumption considering that said assumption implies that Palmer would have played perfect football and that Pitt would have never once adjusted to him.

Carson Palmer is an excellent QB. But he's not infallable.

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 05:53 PM
Steel,

You forgot to post the performance in Heinz Field for Carson, I suppose since it didn't fit your line of arguing.

From nfl.com:

10/23/05- Carson Palmer (Heinz Field)

22-38, 227 Yards- 3 TD, 0 INT, 101.5 Passer Rating.

Both the performances I posted were Carson Palmer versus the Steelers in the 2005 regular season. Both the good and the bad.


I know you are trying real hard to come to the conclusion that the Squealers are simply the better team regardless of the injury.

Nope. Simply noting that any assumption that includes the Bengals (Palmer or no) as being an auto-win scenario is well off-base, as is any assumption that Palmer would have been as perfect as needed to be worth 17 additional points.


From what I can see, about the only thing I've agreed on with you is that these are two pretty even teams (I think it was you that said that), so it would seem that putting in a mediocre QB for nearly the entire game is going to have a significant impact on the rest of the game, regardless of how you try to explain away by "Kitna did great." Yea, for a half, everyone knows that. But it was obvious he didn't have what it took in round 2. But the Squealers just won the game straight up? Unfortunately, a DLman decided to make that not possible.

Again, no. I'm simply noting that while Palmer is consistently excellent, the assumption that he would have been a certainty to surpass Kitna's performance is going to fall on deaf ears. First, nothing is a certainty. Ironic that I must type that in response to you of all people. Secondly, Palmer has been both excellent and awful against Pitt this season.

And, BTW- if I'd have jumped on the site and yelled and screamed about the thumb splint worn by Roethisberger last time they met "costing" the Steelers the game because of it turned him into a virtual copy of Jon Kitna, I'd have been lambasted as a first-order excuse-maker. Do you think the Bengals won the last regular season meeting straight-up? I do, regardless of the thumb injury. They couldn't overcome it. Them's the breaks.

You just saw a team that had two ten-point leads, muffed a FG, and gave up big plays all over the place. You saw a better version of Ben Roethisberger as well- a guy who actually did have the kind of game people are assuming Carson Palmer would have had. Cedric Wilson beat your secondary silly.

CEDRIC WILSON! GAH! Was that Kimo's fault as well? Kitna's? No. That was the Bengals defense being the Bengals defense. For some reason it reminds me of the Reds pitching. Hmn...

traderumor
01-10-2006, 06:08 PM
Steel,

I guess what we come down to is that I don't think anyone believes it is a foregone conclusion that with Palmer, all things are possible. I haven't seen Bengals fans saying that. What we are saying is that there is a pretty darn good chance based on a season's worth of evidence, including two games with Pittsburgh and the way the game started out. All you can talk about is making up a margin that was all predicated on a total 180 degrees change in circumstances that likely affected both sides of the ball. That is where I see the disagreement.

It is not all things equal on the other side of the ball either. Play down the psychological effect all you want, but that affected both sides of the ball and the home field advantage. In other words, what you would expect to happen did happen in such a situation. It would have been remarkable and historic (Earl Morral historic) if the opposite had occurred (Kitna leads the Bengals to victory as backup QB). So, my conclusion is that the win was tainted as soon as the knee popped. And just like that is a circumstance the Bengals could do nothing about, neither can the Steelers. It is also worth nothing, but it seems important to you that it be considered a fair and square win. Next time, tell your lard butt DLman to avoid steamrolling a QBs knees, including grabbing said knee just for effect.

Falls City Beer
01-10-2006, 06:29 PM
To suggest that Palmer would not have outperformed Kitna in any metric you throw out there is silly. Like objectively, empirically silly.

gonelong
01-10-2006, 06:30 PM
Hmn. I'm not sure how a game that goes to halftime with the home team up by three was a 90/10 scenario after play two of the first half.

I think you missed it ... I was saying it was 90/10 in favor of the Steelers after Palmer went down.

You only need to win by 1. Like I said, it was a coin flip before Palmer went down. It was pretty much a 90/10 deal afterwards, it was only a matter of time before PIT exposed Kitna.

The 15 or so guys at the party I was at pretty much all had the same feeling. I would have bet against the Bengals, and heavy at that point, despite their lead.


And please note that Palmer had played just as badly (actually a little worse than Kitna's end result) versus Pitt during their first meeting this year.

Well, you only have a 2 games sample to work with there, and the more recent game was more in line with his seasonal numbers. If we want to work on what was probable, he was more than likely to gravitate towards his seasonal numbers, IMO. (I know how much you like probabiltiies.;))


From my perspective, any "90/10" scenario would have to include the assumption that Carson Palmer would have played 100% mistake-free football all day long while leading the Bengals to their 6th highest point total this season in his first playoff start in the Bengals third game this season against a team that had already made him look bad. I'm just not sure how that assumption is any kind of reasonable.

As noted above, I think we miscommunicated. Nothing was ever 90/10 in the Bengals favor in any scenario at any time.


We DID see a dropoff in talent level with Palmer going out. But did we actually see a dropoff in performance level? Maybe. If so, was the performance gap a two TD+FG dropoff? That is, IMHO, a stretch.

Well, it doesn't need to be a 17 pt swing for the Bengals. It only needed to be a 7+/7- scenario to tie the game up and I don't think thats far-fetched or unreasonable at all.

Kitna was sacked 4 times and he holds the ball alot longer than Palmer. Kitna tossed 2 INTs in the second half - I'd take my chances that Palmer would not do that. How many less opportunities do you have on offense, and how many more opportunities does that lead to for the other team? More possessions, better field position, etc.

Is Palmer worth a TD or more to the offense in the 2nd half? I'd say chances are darn good. Is Palmer worth enough yards, 1st downs, field position, lack of turnovers from limiting Pitts to one of their TDs? There is your debate in a nutshell. I say he reasonalby could have been.


If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.
Sure, otherwise we wouldn't have anything to discuss here.

Do the Bengals win that game with Palmer at the helm? No way to know and too close to even postulate one way or another. As it is, they lost. Period. End of story.

So, we look forward to next year.

GL

TeamBoone
01-10-2006, 07:10 PM
In the grand shcheme of things, all of this doesn't really matter at all. Indy would mop either one of them. I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that. :thumbup:

Here's one who doesn't believe it. Cincinatti played them tough in their previous meeting.

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 07:17 PM
I think you missed it ... I was saying it was 90/10 in favor of the Steelers after Palmer went down.

No, I did get it. I'm just saying that I don't see a 40% probability swing like that resting on the shoulders of just one player or position in this particular situation. If that's the case, then it's a fundamentally flawed team.

Do I believe that the probabilities were altered when Kitna took the helm? Sure. But to go from a coin flip to nearly a zero percent chance to win that game? I don't see that and I sure didn't see that when the Bengals took a 3 point lead into halftime and then summarily drove down the field for what should have been a Field Goal.

The Bengals should have- without any help whatesoever from anyone or anything- scored 20 points. Have even a decent defense and that should be enough to win you a playoff football game.


Well, you only have a 2 games sample to work with there, and the more recent game was more in line with his seasonal numbers. If we want to work on what was probable, he was more than likely to gravitate towards his seasonal numbers, IMO. (I know how much you like probabiltiies.;))

But then we'd need to disregard an additional mitigating factor. That wasn't just any game. That was the kid's first playoff game ever. Palmer came into that game after sitting for the majority of the KC debacle and played his worst stretch of football in 2005 the three games prior. Got a little pick-happy during that stretch. Now, the nice thing is that Palmer's bad stretches tend to be better than your average QB. But his most recent performance certainly wasn't midseason Carson Palmer form.

And when we're talking about what Palmer's most likely to do in a a single game, we're talking about a small sample size anyway.

Carson Palmer is an excellent QB. But we're still at the point where we'd be expecting his absolute best in a pressurecooker environment against a team that's made him look bad once this season. I'm just saying that he can look bad. Would he have more probably looked good? Yeah. Ben Roethisberger good? No. And that's pretty much what he'd have had to do to affect the score by 17 points.


Well, it doesn't need to be a 17 pt swing for the Bengals. It only needed to be a 7+/7- scenario to tie the game up and I don't think thats far-fetched or unreasonable at all.

The Bengals had two 10 point leads and let Pitt back into the game both times. They had a shot at turning a three-point lead into six and screwed that up as well. Along the way, the Defense allowed Pittsburgh to hit all sorts of huge plays.

This is sort of the same "coulda' woulda' shoulda'" stuff I heard from Bengals fans (not here) I know after the first meeting this year. Sure, anything could have happened differently. But it didn't.


Is Palmer worth a TD or more to the offense in the 2nd half? I'd say chances are darn good. Is Palmer worth enough yards, 1st downs, field position, lack of turnovers from limiting Pitts to one of their TDs? There is your debate in a nutshell. I say he reasonalby could have been.

And that is the crux of the disagreement. For a QB to have that large an effect on the game, we'd have to expect him to be perfect. That's what I feel is the unreasonable expectation here.


Sure, otherwise we wouldn't have anything to discuss here.

Exactly. And I don't want to discuss Dan O'Brien and the Reds offseason anymore either. ;)


Do the Bengals win that game with Palmer at the helm? No way to know and too close to even postulate one way or another. As it is, they lost. Period. End of story.

So, we look forward to next year.

And that's the thing. Contrary to what tr is saying, I don't "need" to feel that the Steelers won "even up". Personally, I don't care. I'm just happy they're still playing 'cause still playing (even against Indy) is better than not still playing.

I'm just saying that I don't think it's right, given the amount of talent offensively, that the Bengals were so severely hamstrung without Carson Palmer that they should have had virtually no shot of winning that game with Kitna at the helm. Don't get me wrong- I know about performance dropoffs that are far more severe (Ben to Maddox) than a Palmer-to-Kitna switcheroo. But really, the main idea I took exception to was the opinion (not yours) that the game would have been a "rout" with Palmer, but ended up as a 14-point loss without him.

No QB in the world is reasonably worth that kind of point spread over a single half of a football game. Well, except maybe Frank Reich. Once.

RedFanAlways1966
01-10-2006, 08:33 PM
I'm just saying that I don't see a 40% probability swing like that resting on the shoulders of just one player or position in this particular situation. If that's the case, then it's a fundamentally flawed team

I must say that this is true for the Bengals and Carson Palmer. Ironic that this also seems to describe the Pittsburgh Steelers as well? I think if we look at games in which Ben sat due to injury, the Steelers were a very different team and their record will show this too.

If the Cincinnati Bengals lose Palmer in the last game of the pre-season for the year in 2005, what do they finish? 1st place in the division? No way. Playoffs? No way.

If the Pittsburgh Steelers lose Ben in the last game of the pre-season for the year in 2005, what do they finish? 1st place in the division? No way as they didn't do it with him (in part b/c he was hurt some this year). Playoffs? No way.

Makes me wonder what the NE Patriots do if Tom Brady faces the same fate. Or Indy with Peyton. This holds true for a lot of teams IMO. Da Bears being an exception this year.

Reds Fanatic
01-10-2006, 09:01 PM
Just to update everyone on Carson he apparently had surgery this afternoon. The surgery was done by Dr. Lonnie Paulos in Houston.

GAC
01-10-2006, 09:13 PM
You guys still here?

This thing's gonna last longer than Turk Schonert's career.

Now that I liked! :lol:

StillFunkyB
01-10-2006, 09:23 PM
Just to update everyone on Carson he apparently had surgery this afternoon. The surgery was done by Dr. Lonnie Paulos in Houston.

Was it ACL replacement surgery?

SteelSD
01-10-2006, 09:24 PM
I must say that this is true for the Bengals and Carson Palmer. Ironic that this also seems to describe the Pittsburgh Steelers as well? I think if we look at games in which Ben sat due to injury, the Steelers were a very different team and their record will show this too.

There's a much larger dropoff from Roethisberger to Tommy Maddox than there is from Palmer to Kitna. Miles difference. Pittsburgh was 2-0 with Charlie Batch replacing Roethisberger in games this season. They were 0-2 when they handed Maddox a starting nod and the guy lost the Jacksonville game all by himself. And in the grand scheme of things, Kitna > Batch > Maddox.

Cincinnati is, offensively, more talented than Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the more balanced team. The more balance you have, the better you're going to be able to deal with losing that one special guy regardless of whether said guy is missing for a single game or a season. But in this case we're talking specifically about a single game.


Makes me wonder what the NE Patriots do if Tom Brady faces the same fate. Or Indy with Peyton. This holds true for a lot of teams IMO. Da Bears being an exception this year.

Already happened with Brady and the Pats in the playoffs. 2001 AFC Championship Game no less. Versus the Steelers. On the road. Brady goes down and Drew Bledsoe came off the bench to help defeat the Steelers- who finished 13-3 in the regular season. Of course, the Pats defense allowed only 17 points that game. Hmn...

Redsfaithful
01-10-2006, 11:35 PM
versus a team that's allowed more than 30 points once

Who was that that scored more than 30?

You lost a lot of credibility by saying that Palmer couldn't have put up as good of a game as Ben. That's a joke, there's no comparison between the two. If Roethlisberger was anywhere near as good as Palmer then the Steelers wouldn't mind him throwing a little more. As it is they gameplan to make it so that he doesn't have to expose himself by throwing more than 20 times a game.

We'll see this weekend how he does when he's the focus of the offense. It's not going to be pretty.

Dom Heffner
01-10-2006, 11:39 PM
As it is they gameplan to make it so that he doesn't have to expose himself by throwing more than 20 times a game.


I believe they led the NFL in highest percentage of running plays (57% or so?). Pretty sad when their running backs really aren't that good.

SteelSD
01-11-2006, 12:56 AM
Who was that that scored more than 30?

That was the Bengals. And the Steelers are one of only two teams Palmer put up a sub-55.0 QB rating. Seems to me that if you're expecting Pitt to give up 30 to the Bengals based on one game, you've just made a case for a similar reasonable expectation that they could have made Palmer look as bad as last time they visited.


You lost a lot of credibility by saying that Palmer couldn't have put up as good of a game as Ben.

No one put up as good a game last weekend as did Roethlisberger. Guy finished with a passer rating of 148.7 against Cincy on Sunday. The only way you get better than that is to have a PERFECT day. That's a day Palmer has never had. Yet, you're expecting that he'd have done it on Sunday in his first ever playoff game.


That's a joke, there's no comparison between the two. If Roethlisberger was anywhere near as good as Palmer then the Steelers wouldn't mind him throwing a little more. As it is they gameplan to make it so that he doesn't have to expose himself by throwing more than 20 times a game.

Wow do you misunderstand the Quarterback position. Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger are as near performance clones as two QB's get. I would be stupid to denigrate either as being anything but top-tier NFL Quarterbacks.

Palmer gets more opps because he plays under a different scheme with a defense that's apt to hand the ball back to the offense quickly and requires said offense to score a ton of points.

Roethlisberger isn't protected from being "exposed". In fact, you've got it completely backwards. Pittsburgh's offensive gameplan DEMANDS that he'd be exposed consistently if that were possible. You simply cannot dedicate yourself to the run with those backs unless you've got a guy at QB who can efficiently and effectively chew up yardage consistently. You've got a lot to learn if you think that Ben Roethlisberger is some kind of dink-and-dunk Trent Dilfer or Kordell Stewart type who needs "protection".

Palmer gets more opportunities because the Bengals defense can't stop anyone. Quite often they have to play a shootout style to overcome that deficiency. Roethlisberger gets fewer because Pitt plays a different style of offense- but a style that demands more efficient QB play in fewer opportunities. And it ain't like personnel has nothing to do with it either. Gee...would I rather consistently air it out to the Bengals receiving corps or the Steelers receiving corps? Hmn...now that's a toughie. Might want to let me think on that one a little bit. Flip-flop those two QB's and what do you get? Same results, but then you'd be talking about how the Steelers are "protecting" Palmer.

Freakin' 23 year old kid LED the NFL in % of 20+ Yard Completions (20.8% vs. total Completions) while finishing with a 62.7% Completion rate and an INT rate of 3.4%. Can you name the only other QB this century who's chewed up yardage that efficiently? I'll give you two hints. His last name is "Manning" and his first name ain't "Eli". It doesn't matter how many throws it take a QB to get the job done. You simply need to stop confusing "opportunity" with "ability". Football doesn't work like that because not every team plays it the exact same way nor do they need to. Just because someone gets to do something more often, that doesn't mean he's actually better at it than the next guy.

Roethlisberger is consistently called on to make plays in the intermediate+ distances on the field with a receiving corps of Hines Ward and...um...yeah. Hines Ward. And he does it. Consistently. With precision. This season. With a bum thumb and aching knees. Sunday was his third career game with a rating of 148.0 or higher. Roethlisberger smacked the Bengals defense upside the head with as near a perfect performance as a QB could have on Sunday and you don't even know it happened because all you can do is focus on the perfect game you assume Palmer would obviously have had even though he's never had one in his NFL life.


We'll see this weekend how he does when he's the focus of the offense. It's not going to be pretty.

Yeah? Well, Indy is a dramatically better football team than the Bengals and I figured that the Bengals game was a coin-flip for Pittsburgh. I expect them to lose to Indy, but I'm real happy that they'll be playing Indy rather than sitting at home.

gonelong
01-11-2006, 01:05 AM
No, I did get it. I'm just saying that I don't see a 40% probability swing like that resting on the shoulders of just one player or position in this particular situation. If that's the case, then it's a fundamentally flawed team.

They are a fundamentally flawed team, just look at that crappy defense. I do see a 40% swing.


Do I believe that the probabilities were altered when Kitna took the helm? Sure. But to go from a coin flip to nearly a zero percent chance to win that game? I don't see that and I sure didn't see that when the Bengals took a 3 point lead into halftime and then summarily drove down the field for what should have been a Field Goal.

I'd have had my wallet out at that point and bet you straight up they would lost the game, and I've been a lifelong Bengals fan.


The Bengals should have- without any help whatesoever from anyone or anything- scored 20 points. Have even a decent defense and that should be enough to win you a playoff football game.

Well, they don't have anything resembling a decent defense. Thats the crux of the argument why a guy like Palmer is so valuable. He keeps the chains and the clock rolling and keeps the ball out of the opponents hands, keeping his defense off the field. Palmer was our defensive player of the year IMO.


But then we'd need to disregard an additional mitigating factor. That wasn't just any game. That was the kid's first playoff game ever. Palmer came into that game after sitting for the majority of the KC debacle and played his worst stretch of football in 2005 the three games prior. Got a little pick-happy during that stretch. Now, the nice thing is that Palmer's bad stretches tend to be better than your average QB. But his most recent performance certainly wasn't midseason Carson Palmer form.

Well, you do have that. The closest thing we can look back on is probably the game at PIT for a similar pressure scenario.


And when we're talking about what Palmer's most likely to do in a a single game, we're talking about a small sample size anyway.

Yep


Carson Palmer is an excellent QB. But we're still at the point where we'd be expecting his absolute best in a pressurecooker environment against a team that's made him look bad once this season.

I don't see it that way. He'd just have to play pretty much the same he had all season, IMO.


I'm just saying that he can look bad. Would he have more probably looked good? Yeah. Ben Roethisberger good? No. And that's pretty much what he'd have had to do to affect the score by 17 points.

IMO he is more valuable than Rothlisberger. They have pretty much the same rate stats, but Palmer has the counting stats on top of it. That is no small feat in my book, many guys can mind the store, but few can run the whole business at the same level. Having seen Ben in college and at PIT, I don't doubt that he could duplicate what Palmer did this season, but he hasn't done it yet either.


The Bengals had two 10 point leads and let Pitt back into the game both times. They had a shot at turning a three-point lead into six and screwed that up as well. Along the way, the Defense allowed Pittsburgh to hit all sorts of huge plays.

You keep making my point for me. The defense is terrible. They can't stop anyone. Again, this is what made Palmer so valuable this season, he was able to score and often times keep the ball out of the other teams hand so that the defense wasn't nearly as exposed.



And that is the crux of the disagreement. For a QB to have that large an effect on the game, we'd have to expect him to be perfect. That's what I feel is the unreasonable expectation here.

Well, we disagree on all counts then.


I'm just saying that I don't think it's right, given the amount of talent offensively, that the Bengals were so severely hamstrung without Carson Palmer that they should have had virtually no shot of winning that game with Kitna at the helm.

Then you haven't seen enough of Palmer and Kitna.


Don't get me wrong- I know about performance dropoffs that are far more severe (Ben to Maddox) than a Palmer-to-Kitna switcheroo. But really, the main idea I took exception to was the opinion (not yours) that the game would have been a "rout" with Palmer, but ended up as a 14-point loss without him.

You have a more severe talent loss from Ben to Maddox than you do from Palmer to Kitna. However, the Bengals utilize and rely on that resource much more than the Steelers do. Net loss would be worse for the Bengals IMO.


No QB in the world is reasonably worth that kind of point spread over a single half of a football game. Well, except maybe Frank Reich. Once.

Well, I don't agree its a 17 point spread that had to be made up, and it wasn't for a 1/2 of football, it was for the entire game.

It was a 14 pt spread, which is one more Bengal TD and 1 less PIT TD. Given the 4 sacks, 2 picks, etc. I don't think its unreasonable in the least.

Look, I didn't think it was the Bengals year before Palmer went down. I was plenty pleased with the season already. I don't know if the Bengals would have won or not, however, IMO the Bengals took a SEVERE loss that fundamentally altered there probability of winning the game.

Kitna put up a 60 QB rating, 4.9 Y/A, 4 sacks, 2 picks, and 1 TD and a fumble.
Palmer put up an avg of 78, 6.1 Y/A, 3 sacks, 2 picks, and 3 TD, 0 fumbles in 2 games.
In the 2nd game, at PIT, Palmer put up 101.5, 6.0, 0, 3, 0.
For the season he was 101, 7.5, 19, 12, 32, 5

GL

Reds Fanatic
01-11-2006, 01:39 AM
Looks like Carson's ACL surgery went well today.

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5017


The rehab of Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer got a swift boost Tuesday when reconstructive knee surgery revealed not as much damage to the left knee as originally feared. A source close to Palmer said there was no dislocation and Dr. Lonnie Paulos had to deal mainly with the tear of the anterior cruciate ligament during the procedure at the Houston Medical Center.

"It went very well down there," the source said.

Palmer plans to start his rehab Thursday at the Kerlan-Jobe Orthopedic Center near his home in Orange County in California.

Both the Bengals and Palmer agreed to use the independent Paulous, 56, a leading orthopedic surgeon based in Houston. Paulos, a graduate of the University of Utah Medical School, once did a fellowship at the University of Cincinnati Medical Center. According to internet reports, he has also served in leadership positions of such groups as the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons and the American Orthopedic Society of Sports Medicine.

SteelSD
01-11-2006, 05:25 AM
IMO he is more valuable than Rothlisberger. They have pretty much the same rate stats, but Palmer has the counting stats on top of it. That is no small feat in my book, many guys can mind the store, but few can run the whole business at the same level. Having seen Ben in college and at PIT, I don't doubt that he could duplicate what Palmer did this season, but he hasn't done it yet either.

Hasn't had the opportunity yet. That's a very important distinction. At a younger age, Roethisberger has accomplished historic things, but I fail to see the need to try to play the placement game with two of the top five QB's in the NFL.


You keep making my point for me. The defense is terrible. They can't stop anyone. Again, this is what made Palmer so valuable this season, he was able to score and often times keep the ball out of the other teams hand so that the defense wasn't nearly as exposed.

And, again, the quality of the replacement is important. Kitna's not a replacement-level backup. Far from it.


Then you haven't seen enough of Palmer and Kitna.

Yeah. I actually have. Kitna was the starting QB for my fantasy league team two years ago (and CJ was my #1 wideout). I got REALLY familiar with Kitna. Played really well. Didn't lose the job by any fault of his own. Probably be starting somewhere next season.


You have a more severe talent loss from Ben to Maddox than you do from Palmer to Kitna. However, the Bengals utilize and rely on that resource much more than the Steelers do. Net loss would be worse for the Bengals IMO.

Then you haven't seen Maddox play enough recently. Go find a game tape of the Jax game. It's the difference between replacing a great starting QB (Palmer) with a QB who's a viable starter on any number of NFL teams (Kitna) versus a below-replacement level pud who's capable of literally handing games to opposing football teams (Maddox). You can't find a more severe dropoff than Ben to Maddox in football. At any position.


Well, I don't agree its a 17 point spread that had to be made up, and it wasn't for a 1/2 of football, it was for the entire game.

It was a 14 pt spread, which is one more Bengal TD and 1 less PIT TD. Given the 4 sacks, 2 picks, etc. I don't think its unreasonable in the least.

Yes, I know you'd like to take Pitt points off the board. I'm curious though- Pitt scored 31 points the last time WITH Palmer at the helm for Cinci so why again wouldn't Pitt score 31 on Sunday? You be doin' some fuzzy math there, my man. Hmn...Palmer in...Kitna out...minus 7...plus 7...carry the three...two point conversion...Bengals WIN! ;)

The Bengals needed 17 points to win that game. Unless you figure that they had a great shot of not botching five more field goals in the second half. Or unless you reckon that Marv would have gone for a two-point conversion when down by one.

You'd also be assuming that Palmer didn't get sacked and wouldn't be picked. Again, I'm not even going to consider any argument that includes the concept that Palmer would have made no mistakes whatsoever. Yet, it consistently pops up post after post. Please make it stop.

Redsfaithful
01-11-2006, 07:23 AM
Unless you figure that they had a great shot of not botching five more field goals in the second half.

I guess this is the crux of the argument. The Bengals didn't score any points in the second half, and really only came close to scoring once on the botched field goal. I don't think that would have happened with Palmer in. Would Palmer have managed to score 14+ points in the second half? Yeah, I think he probably could have managed that. You disagree, and of course we'll never know.

It's a shame the game couldn't have been played straight up. If the Bengals had lost with Palmer then this wouldn't be quite as tough to take.

RedFanAlways1966
01-11-2006, 09:12 AM
January 11, 2006
Cowher: I Finally Figured Out How to Win A Road Playoff Game

By Jack Ripper

Entering this year's playoffs, which saw the Steelers just barely get in, Pittsburgh Steelers coach Bill Cowher was 0-3 as a coach when playing on the road in the NFL playoffs. That record is now 1-3 after Cowher and his defensive unit figured out their best shot at winning on the road during the playoffs. Going into last week's game, the Steelers staff knew that Carson Palmer could single-handily beat them. He had already done it once this year and that one game almost cost the Steelers a trip to this year's playoffs.

The saying all week in the Pittsburgh lockerroom and on the practice field was "we cannot beat him, so we must hurt him". Inside sources close to the team have claimed that Dick LeBeau, former Bengals coach, offered $10,000 to the man who made the saying a reality. The same sources have told me that Kimo has already ordered a new 6-person hottub for his back porch and a 60" HDTV for his living room.

Another inside source close to the team has taken a picture of a poster that hangs in the Steelers defensive meeting room. The picture is seen below.

;)

Heath
01-11-2006, 09:48 AM
Dear Boss-

I'm sorry you had to waste 10 pages of bandwith on this thread. This just in football is a contact sport.

Sincerely,
Me.

deltachi8
01-11-2006, 10:07 AM
LET IT GO.

I would think you guys live in Buffalo like I do where they never let things go.

gonelong
01-11-2006, 10:09 AM
Hasn't had the opportunity yet. That's a very important distinction. At a younger age, Roethisberger has accomplished historic things, but I fail to see the need to try to play the placement game with two of the top five QB's in the NFL.

Agreed, as I stated.


And, again, the quality of the replacement is important. Kitna's not a replacement-level backup. Far from it.

No, but that doesn't make him a good quarterback either.


Yeah. I actually have. Kitna was the starting QB for my fantasy league team two years ago (and CJ was my #1 wideout). I got REALLY familiar with Kitna. Played really well. Didn't lose the job by any fault of his own. Probably be starting somewhere next season.

Kitna isn't horrible by any stretch, but what you get with Kitna, is time and time again, costly interceptions, too many sacks, and he simply drops the ball all too often. He probably will be starting somewhere next season, but that speaks to the lack of good QBs in the league at this point.


Then you haven't seen Maddox play enough recently. Go find a game tape of the Jax game. It's the difference between replacing a great starting QB (Palmer) with a QB who's a viable starter on any number of NFL teams (Kitna) versus a below-replacement level pud who's capable of literally handing games to opposing football teams (Maddox). You can't find a more severe dropoff than Ben to Maddox in football. At any position.

I've seen him play.

QB ratings the last 3 seasons.
Kitna 87.4, 75.9, 36.4
Maddox 75.3, 58.3, 51.7

Maddox had a better year than Kitna this year. That said, I would take Kitna over Maddox, no doubt. What I am saying is that you are replacing 20 tosses a game in PIT vs. 35+ a game in Cincy.


Yes, I know you'd like to take Pitt points off the board. I'm curious though- Pitt scored 31 points the last time WITH Palmer at the helm for Cinci so why again wouldn't Pitt score 31 on Sunday? You be doin' some fuzzy math there, my man. Hmn...Palmer in...Kitna out...minus 7...plus 7...carry the three...two point conversion...Bengals WIN! ;)

Heck, I'll make it easy. If the Steelers have 2 or 3 less possesions in a game (any game), how many points less would you expect them to score?


The Bengals needed 17 points to win that game. Unless you figure that they had a great shot of not botching five more field goals in the second half. Or unless you reckon that Marv would have gone for a two-point conversion when down by one.

See above.


You'd also be assuming that Palmer didn't get sacked and wouldn't be picked. Again, I'm not even going to consider any argument that includes the concept that Palmer would have made no mistakes whatsoever. Yet, it consistently pops up post after post. Please make it stop.

I never made that assumption and posted to the effect. It'll stop, you aren't bothering to read what I have written anyway and the point is moot, the game is over.

GL

Heath
01-11-2006, 10:13 AM
LET IT GO.

I would think you guys live in Buffalo like I do where they never let things go.

Only if Thurman remembered his helmet....

And if Scott Norwood was 10 yards closer...

deltachi8
01-11-2006, 10:16 AM
Only if Thurman remembered his helmet....

And if Scott Norwood was 10 yards closer...

please note, i live here but am not a Bills fans. I get my enough torture as a Reds fan to cover all my sports likings.

RedFanAlways1966
01-11-2006, 11:00 AM
Let it go? Sorry, but 15 years of HADES will make a fan like this. Buffalo does not understand the 15-year thing.... at least not in modern times.

15 YEARS. 15 YEARS. That is a long time. And to have your hopes (after 15 YEARS) dashed on one "questionable hit" (make no mistake, that hit can be questioned), I believe people have a right to voice displeasure in the week after.

If you are Bengals fan who does not think about that one play this week, then you a very-very casual fan and probably checked in on that game last Sunday between doing housework and other more important things.

It is nice to have a place to discuss it and see the perspective of a Steelers fan like Steel. If you do not like it or think it is killing bandwidth, then quit clicking on the post. Sounds simplistic enough to me.

deltachi8
01-11-2006, 11:11 AM
Im enjoying the discussion, just, at the end of the day, it won't make you feel any better.

Im not a Bengal fan. I am a Steeler fan who watched every play of the game and haven't argued much because Steel has done a far better job than I could.

All I am saying is hearing people in this town still bemoan "Wide Right" and "No Goal" YEARS after the fact, well it just ain't worth it.

westofyou
01-11-2006, 11:26 AM
All I am saying is hearing peopl in this town still bemoan "Wide RIght" and "No Goal" YEARS after the fact, well it just ain't worth it.My first sports disappointment of major quality was the Tigers losing to the A's in the 72 Playoffs, devistating.... I still hate the A's... next the 10-10 tie between UM and OSU in 1973 with UM getting locked out of the Bowl picture.

I'm still not over either one.

Sean_CaseyRules
01-11-2006, 11:32 AM
Was it ACL replacement surgery?

It's when they take your completely torn ACL and then re-attach it again, but since no blood is ran there, you have at least 6 months of recouperating and rehibilitation.

RFS62
01-11-2006, 11:42 AM
My first sports disappointment of major quality was the Tigers losing to the A's in the 72 Playoffs, devistating.... I still hate the A's... next the 10-10 tie between UM and OSU in 1973 with UM getting locked out of the Bowl picture.

I'm still not over either one.


MILT PAPPAS!!!!!!!!

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

In other news, you guys are funny.

Roy Tucker
01-11-2006, 11:48 AM
I think if Carson Palmer would have stayed in the game, they would have won. And then swept the playoffs and won the Super Bowl.

And then he would have found the cure for cancer, solved world hunger, become President, and made for world peace.

That's what I think.

RedFanAlways1966
01-11-2006, 11:51 AM
My first sports disappointment of major quality was the Tigers losing to the A's in the 72 Playoffs, devistating....

Fred Scherman... native Daytonian and Fairview HS grad. Was the premier reliever for the Tigers in 1971 & 1972. I believe the team voted him MVP after the 71 season. Also a family friend!

My 1st disappointment was probably the 1974 NL West with the Dodgers beating out the REDS.

westofyou
01-11-2006, 11:58 AM
Fred Scherman... native Daytonian and Fairview HS grad. Was the premier reliever for the Tigers in 1971 & 1972. I believe the team voted him MVP after the 71 season. Also a family friend!

My 1st disappointment was probably the 1974 NL West with the Dodgers beating out the REDS.
I remember Fred Scherman, he and Seelbach did the chore of closing (which ain't much on a Billy Martin team) Fred was most likely voted Tiger reliever of the year in 1971 (20 saves), Lolich was the stud of that staff, he was the MVP.

25-14, 2.92 ERA and 45 starts and 29 complete games

savafan
01-11-2006, 12:29 PM
Go watch the video replay again. Kimo's shoulder connected with Palmer's knee before the arm wrapped. Kimo could have put his arm straight out and that knee would have still been toast. It actually could have been worse. At that angle, with that kind of momentum, 300-pound bowling balls don't stop on a dime like that. But frankly, he shouldn't have been expected to. Kimo wasn't trying to wrap up at the knee. He targetted the area below the calf. Surely you've seen NFL pass rushers trip up a QB that way, haven't you? Guy was in a scrum. Saw the ballcarrier's ankle. Went for said ankle. Didn't get said ankle with surgical precision, but he certainly wasn't targetting the knee.



I've watched the replay over and over and over again. It still looks to me like Kimo was purposely targetting the knee, and that the hit was late. And I'm a Browns' fan.

That said, is it any coincidence that the root word of Steelers is Steel? ;)

savafan
01-11-2006, 01:33 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060110/SPT02/601100378/1066

By Peggy O'Farrell
Enquirer staff writer

If all goes well, Carson Palmer could be back on the playing field "in eight or nine months" after tearing two ligaments in his knee during Sunday's loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Bengals team physician said.

Palmer tore the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and medial collateral ligament (MCL) in his left knee, Dr. Angelo Colosimo said Monday.

Palmer will need surgery to repair both ligaments, as well as months of intensive physical therapy, Colosimo said.

"Carson's injury is a lot more complicated than the average ACL injury," Colosimo said. "There are multiple ligaments involved and he essentially dislocated his knee. It's a more complicated operation, and a more complicated course of recovery."

Colosimo and the Bengals are working to schedule Palmer's surgery.

The MCL can be surgically repaired, but the ACL will have to be reconstructed using a graft - usually from the patellar tendon in front of the knee cap or from a tendon in the hamstring.

Both repairs can be made during a single surgery, Colosimo said.

In order to reconstruct the ACL, the surgeon will make a 2- to 3-inch incision down the front of Palmer's knee to "harvest" the patellar tendon needed for the graft.

The surgeon can use that incision to repair the tear in the MCL, Colosimo said.

The ACL reconstruction can be done arthroscopically: the surgeon will drill two small tunnels - one to the shinbone and the other to the thighbone - and, through those tunnels, remove the damaged ACL, then place and attach the ligament graft.

The surgery itself is important, Colosimo said. But the physical therapy that follows will be crucial for an athlete of Palmer's caliber.

During rehab, patients have to first re-learn activities of daily living - standing, sitting, walking, etc.

As therapy progresses, they move on to the specific tasks they need to perform their jobs, said Mark Paterno, coordinator of orthopedic and sports physical therapy at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center.

For Palmer, that means a lot of running, planting the injured left leg and turning - all activities that contribute to knee injuries in the first place.

"Twenty percent of it is the surgery. But 80 percent of it is the rehab and the athlete's dedication to healing," Colosimo said.

And psychologically, Palmer and other athletes have to learn to "trust" their repaired joints again, Colosimo said.

Sometimes, the mental adjustment can take another six months, said Marc Galloway, an orthopedic surgeon with Cincinnati Sports Medicine.

ACL tears occur most commonly in soccer, basketball and volleyball. When they happen in football, they're more commonly associated with contact injuries - like Palmer being tackled.

Women are more prone to ACL injuries than men. Doctors aren't sure exactly why, but theories include women's wider pelvises making them more "knock-kneed" and fluctuating hormone levels affecting the strength of the ligament itself.

WMR
01-11-2006, 02:22 PM
I think that article is older than the one posted on a previous page that said that Carson's actual injury was discovered to be less severe than originally thought once the surgery was actually performed.

Sean_CaseyRules
01-11-2006, 02:25 PM
I think that he will be ready for training camp next year, i healed from mine in 3 months, he could do the same, and oxycodin will be his best friend, he was mine.......

savafan
01-11-2006, 02:31 PM
I think that article is older than the one posted on a previous page that said that Carson's actual injury was discovered to be less severe than originally thought once the surgery was actually performed.

Yeah, I was using that article to show how the surgery was done.

M2
01-11-2006, 04:17 PM
Just a few thoughts from watching bit of that game:

Losing Palmer didn't help, but the Steelers owned the Bengals on the line of scrimmage. You rarely win when that happens.

The Bengals main RB displayed a distinct aversion to turning upfield. The Steelers, without much work, got him going sideways pretty much everytime he touched the ball. In fact, it seemed to me that a number of Bengals were scampering towards the sidelines in the second half. Maybe they'd just lost confidence, but you'll lose the game of inches (or in this case feet and yards) if you refuse to go through the defenders. Say what you will about Cory Dillon, but there's a guy who understands the importance of running straight ahead. It seemed to me, the guy isn't going to get you tough yards.

I don't know what the line on the game was, but the Bengals were a team full of playoff newbies who'd just dropped their previous two games. In general that's a club headed for a one-game-and-out playoffs.

dsmith421
01-11-2006, 07:44 PM
The story of this game is very simple.

* The Bengals lost their best player, emotional leader, and on-field captain on the second play of the game.

* They responded with a rush of emotion and anger, which allowed them to close out the first half well.

* But, that superhuman effort, coupled with the psychological trauma of seeing Palmer immobilized at halftime, wore the team out mentally.

* Pittsburgh made some easy adjustments on defense to capitalize on Kitna's lack of arm strength and indecisiveness.

* Tired defense + ineffective offense = loss.

I don't see anything about being a playoff neophyte, or not being able to handle the Steelers' intensity. That's bullcrap. All season Palmer and the offense were the only saving grace for a horrible defense--they kept the ball moving and kept the team off the field. Without him, you have a below average QB in Kitna who lacks the skill set to do what the Bengals did best all year.

I'm not saying that absent Palmer's injury, the Bengals win. Far from it. But his injury took Cincy from probably a 45-55% shot at that game to a 10-20% chance. No one can deny that.

As it stands, I don't know if von Oelhoffen laid a cheap shot on Palmer. I do, however, know that Polamalu took a swing at Rich Braham, I do know that several DBs assualted Houshmandzadeh in the end zone, I do know that Porter was hitting guys late all day. I also remember well Ward and Porter intimating retaliation after Thurman was tripped into Roethlisberger's knee two months ago. So you'll pardon me if I don't give Cowher and his "men" the benefit of the doubt here.

In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what I or any fans think. But I hope sincerely that Palmer, and Willie, and Odell, and every other Bengal's heart of hearts they think Pittsburgh did it on purpose. Because that will focus them toward the job at hand next season.

Falls City Beer
01-11-2006, 07:52 PM
The story of this game is very simple.

* The Bengals lost their best player, emotional leader, and on-field captain on the second play of the game.

* They responded with a rush of emotion and anger, which allowed them to close out the first half well.

* But, that superhuman effort, coupled with the psychological trauma of seeing Palmer immobilized at halftime, wore the team out mentally.

* Pittsburgh made some easy adjustments on defense to capitalize on Kitna's lack of arm strength and indecisiveness.

* Tired defense + ineffective offense = loss.

I don't see anything about being a playoff neophyte, or not being able to handle the Steelers' intensity. That's bullcrap. All season Palmer and the offense were the only saving grace for a horrible defense--they kept the ball moving and kept the team off the field. Without him, you have a below average QB in Kitna who lacks the skill set to do what the Bengals did best all year.

I'm not saying that absent Palmer's injury, the Bengals win. Far from it. But his injury took Cincy from probably a 45-55% shot at that game to a 10-20% chance. No one can deny that.

As it stands, I don't know if von Oelhoffen laid a cheap shot on Palmer. I do, however, know that Polamalu took a swing at Rich Braham, I do know that several DBs assualted Houshmandzadeh in the end zone, I do know that Porter was hitting guys late all day. I also remember well Ward and Porter intimating retaliation after Thurman was tripped into Roethlisberger's knee two months ago. So you'll pardon me if I don't give Cowher and his "men" the benefit of the doubt here.

In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what I or any fans think. But I hope sincerely that Palmer, and Willie, and Odell, and every other Bengal's heart of hearts they think Pittsburgh did it on purpose. Because that will focus them toward the job at hand next season.


That's this observer's perspective as well. Except it was obviously dirty pool to me. I'll just come out and say what the players wish they could say, which is Pitt plays like a bunch of bush league dolts who knew they could bang up a young kid with impunity because they knew a young kid like Palmer can't go to the press and piss and moan about it. They know he's got to put the stoic face on. They exploited a "weakness"--too bad that "weakness" also happens to be the Bengal's heart and guts.

traderumor
01-11-2006, 08:07 PM
That's this observer's perspective as well. Except it was obviously dirty pool to me. I'll just come out and say what the players wish they could say, which is Pitt plays like a bunch of bush league dolts who knew they could bang up a young kid with impunity because they knew a young kid like Palmer can't go to the press and piss and moan about it. They know he's got to put the stoic face on. They exploited a "weakness"--too bad that "weakness" also happens to be the Bengal's heart and guts.

So are you saying Joey Porter's pregame, shirt-up, chest beating exhibition is bush and shows what kind of bush play is allowed under Cowherd?

Falls City Beer
01-11-2006, 08:55 PM
So are you saying Joey Porter's pregame, shirt-up, chest beating exhibition is bush and shows what kind of bush play is allowed under Cowherd?

That was the invocation to the Muse of Asininity.

traderumor
01-11-2006, 10:55 PM
That was the invocation to the Muse of Asininity.
Disliking the Browns is getting boring, anyhow. Might as well use that energy toward the Steelers

SteelSD
01-12-2006, 12:40 AM
The story of this game is very simple.

Not as simple as going from a coin-flip to virtually no chance to win the game, but let's see.


* The Bengals lost their best player, emotional leader, and on-field captain on the second play of the game.

Ok. That's accurate.


* They responded with a rush of emotion and anger, which allowed them to close out the first half well.

They responded with skill as well. Probably have served them better to continue to rely on skill rather than heart and guts, because listening to you guys they have neither of the latter.


* But, that superhuman effort, coupled with the psychological trauma of seeing Palmer immobilized at halftime, wore the team out mentally.

AFC North Champion Cincinnati Bengals have no mental toughness. Well, if that's how it is, they started off that game with far less of a chance to win it than I thought.

Yeah. I bet it was very traumatizing to go into the locker room at halftime up by three in their first playoff game in a google years. At that point a professional squad should have had all the confidence in the world instead of allegedly falling apart.


* Pittsburgh made some easy adjustments on defense to capitalize on Kitna's lack of arm strength and indecisiveness.

Pittsburgh's defense has been beaten by worse quarterbacks than John Kitna.


* Tired defense + ineffective offense = loss.

Tired defense? Cincinnati dominated the time of possession through the first 28 Pittsburgh points. Pittsburgh had exactly one scoring drive of over three minutes that whole ballgame. They stunk, but that defense was fresh.


I don't see anything about being a playoff neophyte, or not being able to handle the Steelers' intensity. That's bullcrap. All season Palmer and the offense were the only saving grace for a horrible defense--they kept the ball moving and kept the team off the field. Without him, you have a below average QB in Kitna who lacks the skill set to do what the Bengals did best all year.

Jon Kitna produced a QB rating of 87.4 two years ago when he was the starter for the Bengals. He lost that job, but it had nothing to do with Jon Kitna's performance. Yet now he's being railed on as "below average".

And, BTW, what the Bengals did best offensively all season was to throw short passes to their receivers with an effective mix of running. They didn't simply bomb their way up and down the field. That 2nd-play deep ball by Palmer was 10% of his 40+ yard tosses for the season.


I'm not saying that absent Palmer's injury, the Bengals win. Far from it. But his injury took Cincy from probably a 45-55% shot at that game to a 10-20% chance. No one can deny that.

Well, there's a big difference between 55% and 10%. Smaller difference between 20% and 45%. I'd be a lot more apt to agree with the latter than the former but it appears now that the no-guts, no-heart, traumatized Bengals probably had about a 30% chance of winning that game coming in. I'll continue to adjust that percentage as the excuses continue to pile up.


As it stands, I don't know if von Oelhoffen laid a cheap shot on Palmer. I do, however, know that Polamalu took a swing at Rich Braham, I do know that several DBs assualted Houshmandzadeh in the end zone, I do know that Porter was hitting guys late all day. I also remember well Ward and Porter intimating retaliation after Thurman was tripped into Roethlisberger's knee two months ago. So you'll pardon me if I don't give Cowher and his "men" the benefit of the doubt here.

Polamalu didn't take a swing at Braham. He shoved the ball at his helmet. Stupid. It was a dumb to do. Polamalu consistently does dumb things and as a Steelers fan, it ticks me off. But that wasn't a punch. Porter is also a hothead. He makes me grumpy as well. I'd be able to look the other way more often if his play actually backed his mouth up but that happened in about two games this season.

Carter and Hope didn't "assault" Housh in the end zone. Hope was actually the more aggressive of the two (the dumb step-over thing), and Carter (who, again, doesn't even play enough to talk). But there was no chance that Housh was going to get hurt on that play unless he'd have run himself into the goal post.

Football is a physical game with macho guys who sometimes try to intimidate each other while on the field in an effort to put the other guy off his game. Players jaw at each other constantly on the field and shove and push and act like they're bigger and tougher and meaner than the other guy. Big deal.

And I never heard anything about Porter and/or Ward going on about "retribution". In any case, any conspiracy theory falls flat on it's keester considering that it projects a high-character former Bengal who's had multiple knee injuries as the weapon of choice. Good god.


In the final analysis, it doesn't matter what I or any fans think. But I hope sincerely that Palmer, and Willie, and Odell, and every other Bengal's heart of hearts they think Pittsburgh did it on purpose. Because that will focus them toward the job at hand next season.

Or maybe instead they could just play better defensively?

I dunno. Just a suggestion.

dsmith421
01-12-2006, 01:21 AM
I'll respond to the stuff I disagree with.


They responded with skill as well. Probably have served them better to continue to rely on skill rather than heart and guts, because listening to you guys they have neither of the latter.

Hey, if it makes you feel better about the game to insinuate that there is no difference between the Bengals with Palmer and without, go to it. No one has implied the team lacked guts. But they are young, and saw their leader brought down with the second most brutal injury--next to a spinal injury--that happens regularly in football. It's only natural that the wind went out of their sails.

You think the Colts would be unaffected psychologically if von Oelhoffen rolls up Manning's knee on the first play this weekend?


Yeah. I bet it was very traumatizing to go into the locker room at halftime up by three in their first playoff game in a google years. At that point a professional squad should have had all the confidence in the world instead of allegedly falling apart.

B.S. They had lost their starting quarterback. Pittsburgh had marched down the field twice. No lead was safe. Yeah, they got rattled by the loss of Palmer. He's their best player, for God's sake. He is the biggest meaningful difference between the 8-8 2003 team and the 11-6 2005 team. Those guys realize that.


Pittsburgh's defense has been beaten by worse quarterbacks than John Kitna.

Steelers' five losses this season:
9/25 vs. NE. Opposing QB: Brady. PIT QB: R'berger.
10/16 vs. JAX. Opp QB: Leftwich. PIT QB: Maddox
11/20 at BAL. Opp QB: Boller. PIT QB: Maddox
11/27 at IND. Opp QB: Manning. PIT QB: R'berger. (first game back).
12/4 vs. CIN. Opp QB: Palmer. PIT QB: R'berger.

The only arguable loss Pittsburgh had in 2005 to a quarterback inferior to Jon Kitna was against Baltimore, in a game where Tommy Maddox played disastrously. Boller in that game "led" the Ravens to a grand total of 16 points. Pittsburgh's three losses with Roethlisberger (when they are unquestionably a different team) playing were against arguably 3 of the 4 best QBs in the league besides R'berger: Brady, Peyton, and Palmer.

Yeah, a full-strength Pittsburgh team was dropping games left and right to mediocrities.




Yeah, Kitna had a good season in 2003. Against a relatively weak schedule, with a running back who, even if not at the top of his game nor completely healthy, was considered one of the best in the NFL. Since 2003 he's thrown 133 NFL passes, not counting the playoff. Over the course of his career, Kitna has about a 75 rating, but nearly as many INTs as TDs, plus his well known difficulty holding onto the ball. He's 34 years old, his arm strength is in decline, and he's been a clipboard holder for two years. Oh, and in his one previous playoff game, he took a giant dump. Tommy Maddox had an 85 rating in 2002--feel as confident with him at the helm as Roethlisberger next week in Indianapolis?

[QUOTE]And, BTW, what the Bengals did best offensively all season was to throw short passes to their receivers with an effective mix of running. They didn't simply bomb their way up and down the field. That 2nd-play deep ball by Palmer was 10% of his 40+ yard tosses for the season.

Kitna makes his living off dinks and dunks to the tight end and third receiver. Witness Kevin Walter's busy day on Sunday. Palmer uses his stronger arm to get to playmakers like Houshmandzadeh and Johnson. Kitna's weak arm allows teams to push their safeties forward because the deep ball is not a threat. With Palmer it is a constant threat, even if the number of actual completed plays is relatively low. Palmer's superior skill set opens up the line of scrimmage, Kitna allows teams to bring more pressure and ignore the deep ball.

LeBeau effectively exploited the Bengals offense in the second half. He could not do it in the second game in Pittsburgh. The only major difference: no Carson Palmer.


Well, there's a big difference between 55% and 10%. Smaller difference between 20% and 45%. I'd be a lot more apt to agree with the latter than the former but it appears now that the no-guts, no-heart, traumatized Bengals probably had about a 30% chance of winning that game coming in. I'll continue to adjust that percentage as the excuses continue to pile up.

I'm not freaking making excuses. I'm trying to figure out why they fell apart in the second half. You lose your best player, crap happens. Injuries are part of the game. Let's not forget that six weeks later that "no-guts" "no-heart" team went into your house, in a game you HAD to win, and won. It was ugly, but they got the job done. Just like Pittsburgh did on Sunday. No one questioned the guts and heart of those lunch pail Steelers when the Bengals won the division at Heinz Field.

I'll promise you one thing: if it had been Duane Cleamons or John Thornton blowing up Roethlisberger's knee on the second play and the Bengals took advantage of Maddox or Bunch, you'd have seen nothing more than muted celebrations from me, at least. I want desperately to beat the Steelers, and I'd have been happy to advance, but I'd have known on some level we didn't get your best shot. That's just me though.

As someone who has supported this team through bad and worse, I just felt unbelievably cheated at losing the franchise four minutes in. I think that's perfectly reasonable. But you want to ride out this ridiculous moral superiority that Steelers fans seem to think they earned by birthright, fine.

EDIT: Oh, and incidentally:


But Ward acknowledged he has gone after other NFL players in retaliation for an incident in a previous game and said, "You make a note of the guy and make sure it doesn't happen again."

Asked whether he has made such a mental note about Thurman, Ward said, "Until the next time we play them, we'll remember him. I will."

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/13353501.ht

dsmith421
01-12-2006, 02:59 AM
And, with that, I'm turning the page on the 2005 football season. The Bengals have nothing to be ashamed of for their performance the first 14 games, it could have ended better, but that's sports for you.

I have substantial confidence that Coach Lewis will do the right things to upgrade the defense in the offseason and that Carson will rehab intelligently and diligently. I expect even better things next year.

Now, it's time to deal with other sports disasters, notably UD basketball and the Reds...

GAC
01-12-2006, 03:09 AM
Was Ben healthy or 100% in all of those losses? Banged up knee while wearing a brace, thumb in a splint. ;)

Why are Porter's antics bush league; but Chad Johnson's in the endzone not?

Thurma was "tripped" into Ben's knee; but von Oelhoffen's was a malicious and cheap shot. Go figure.

I guess it's all how you look at it, and which side of the field you are standing on. :dunno:

Even if Palmer was never hurt and played the entire game, my personal feelings is that they would have still lost. It would have been closer, but they would have still lost. The Bengal's defense, which has been horrible in the last half of the season, and was not the same as the first half of the season, would have seen to that. Plus the fact that the Carson-led Bengals had lost their last two games (the Bills???), and hadn't exactly been lighting it up over the last several regular season games.

You'd think Palmer was the first "key" player ever lost to a NFL team that had their hopes and dreams suddenly dashed by such an injury. Take a good, hard look at the NFL's IR list over the last few years, and how alot of team's got "screwed" by injury.

I remember the good ol days of the AFC Central and where the Bengals, Browns, Pittsburgh, and Houston used to be the most physical and bruising division in the NFL. Players always went out of those games banged up.

Nowadays it's "You took a cheap shot at my player" I'm sorry - but it sounds like soccer Moms running out onto the field protesting when Johnny got pushed down and skinned his knee. :lol:

Playadlc
01-12-2006, 03:45 AM
Apparantly Big Ben is a little upset about the comments by Marvin Lewis.

I love it. Pittsburgh knocks our franchise player out with a questionable hit, their players celebrate on the sidelines after it happened, and they are the team that is wronged.

Go Colts.

After Sunday’s game, Lewis ripped Roethlisberger for complaining last month about Thurman’s hit on his knee.

“Gee whiz, the guy got hurt. You can’t get it back," Lewis said. “To sit there and baby and cry like their quarterback, it’s ridiculous.”

On Wednesday, Roethlisberger said, “I can’t comment on it too much. You don’t expect that coming from a guy like that. Obviously, he was frustrated, but I don’t remember complaining. It’s just unfortunate coming from guy like that.”

But Roethlisberger complaint did make the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette the week after the Dec. 4 game in which he referred to the hit as a little dirty. Like von Oelhoffen, Thurman didn’t get fined, but, unlike von Oelhoffen, he was flagged for roughing.

Cowher went after more than just Lewis.

“The last thing we ever do is comment on things that their players say,” Cowher said. “I could have a whole press conference with some of the things that come from that team. I would like to think it was said out of frustration.”

On Monday, Lewis said he didn’t think the rivalry needed any more fuel.

But there it is..

GAC
01-12-2006, 04:22 AM
Apparantly Big Ben is a little upset about the comments by Marvin Lewis. After Sunday’s game, Lewis ripped Roethlisberger for complaining last month about Thurman’s hit on his knee.... On Wednesday, Roethlisberger said, “I can’t comment on it too much. You don’t expect that coming from a guy like that. Obviously, he was frustrated, but I don’t remember complaining. It’s just unfortunate coming from guy like that.”

Why shouldn't Ben be upset if he was not the one, after Sunday's game, to bring up or re-hash the previous situation with the Thurman hit? Who brought it up first? If it was Ben, then you'd have a valid point maybe. But was it Ben or Lewis? And IF Lewis, then why, when he says he doesn't want to add any more fuel to this rivalry?

I'm not a Pittsburgh fan at all (believe me).... but I remember when Ben made that statement after that earlier game. It was one statement when he was asked by a Pitt media type about that hit. Ok - he thought Thurman was trying to hurt him. It was the local Pitt paper that posted his comments. I don't see any where after that where Ben was carrying it over or trying to further make a big deal of it.

Palmer was asked if the hit on him was malicious and meant to try and injure him. Carson stated, knowing von Oelhoffen, that he didn't feel it was, and that's it's just an unfortunate aspect of the game of football. I've listened to Dave Lapham and a few others, and they feel the same way.


“Gee whiz, the guy got hurt. You can’t get it back," Lewis said. “To sit there and baby and cry like their quarterback, it’s ridiculous.”

Wise words. Funny how it's suppose to apply to everyone else, but not to the Bengals, THEIR COACH, or their fans. ;)


Cowher went after more than just Lewis.

“The last thing we ever do is comment on things that their players say,” Cowher said. “I could have a whole press conference with some of the things that come from that team. I would like to think it was said out of frustration.”

And as much as I hate Scowler - He's right! Face it folks! These division rivals (Bengals, Browns, Pitt), and their fans, hate each other. We probably don't hear a 1/3 of the crap that is being said on that field. Nobody is innocent. And to assume one is at the expense of the other is being pretty naive. ;)


Thurman didn’t get fined, but, unlike von Oelhoffen, he was flagged for roughing.

A flag could have been thrown. But that is not the fault of Pittsburgh. Fault the officials. Or is the accusation now gonna fall that the officials favored Pitt?


On Monday, Lewis said he didn’t think the rivalry needed any more fuel.[/B]

It's been a raging bonfire for the last 30 years. What's one more log gonna do? :lol:

SteelSD
01-12-2006, 04:58 AM
Hey, if it makes you feel better about the game to insinuate that there is no difference between the Bengals with Palmer and without, go to it.

First, I never "insinuated" any such thing. In fact, I've done nothing but freely admit that from a talent perspective there's a gap.

That being said, I've also stated numerous times that it appears folks want to assume that gap automatically would have translated into a better peformance than we saw from Kitna (who played better Sunday than Palmer did in the first Steelers meeting this year).


No one has implied the team lacked guts. But they are young, and saw their leader brought down with the second most brutal injury--next to a spinal injury--that happens regularly in football. It's only natural that the wind went out of their sails.

The wind went out of their sails and the result was two 10-point leads, 17 points in the first half, a three-point halftime lead, and they opened the second half with an efficient drive that should have resulted in a Field Goal. If that's the effect of getting the wind knocked out of your sales, I'm going to start taking valium as a pick-me-up.

I've now heard two completely contradictory versions of the Bengals reaction to the Palmer injury. The first version states that the injury gave them a rise and that they responded with anger and resolve. The second version is that the injury was a crushing blow to their drive and emotional stability.


You think the Colts would be unaffected psychologically if von Oelhoffen rolls up Manning's knee on the first play this weekend?

I think any player can be affected psychologically by adversity. How they handle that adversity is the key.

And if you want to look at what have may really knocked the wind out of the Bengals sails on Sunday, take a look at the time of possession on the Pittsburgh scoring drives.


B.S. They had lost their starting quarterback. Pittsburgh had marched down the field twice. No lead was safe. Yeah, they got rattled by the loss of Palmer. He's their best player, for God's sake. He is the biggest meaningful difference between the 8-8 2003 team and the 11-6 2005 team. Those guys realize that.

Yeah, they got "rattled" to one Punt in their first five possessions without a turnover.


Steelers' five losses this season:
9/25 vs. NE. Opposing QB: Brady. PIT QB: R'berger.
10/16 vs. JAX. Opp QB: Leftwich. PIT QB: Maddox
11/20 at BAL. Opp QB: Boller. PIT QB: Maddox
11/27 at IND. Opp QB: Manning. PIT QB: R'berger. (first game back).
12/4 vs. CIN. Opp QB: Palmer. PIT QB: R'berger.

The only arguable loss Pittsburgh had in 2005 to a quarterback inferior to Jon Kitna was against Baltimore, in a game where Tommy Maddox played disastrously. Boller in that game "led" the Ravens to a grand total of 16 points. Pittsburgh's three losses with Roethlisberger (when they are unquestionably a different team) playing were against arguably 3 of the 4 best QBs in the league besides R'berger: Brady, Peyton, and Palmer.

Pittsburgh lost five games to teams that played better that day than they did. That can easily happen with or without Ben Roethisberger. Ditto for the Bengals. Would I rather go into a game with Palmer than Kitna? Well, absolutely. To think otherwise would be stupid. Again, my point has NEVER been that Palmer wouldn't provide potential additional value to the Bengals versus Kitna. By point has been that it quite easily may not have made one bit of difference. Honestly, I think we're pretty close to agreeing on that but it seems that semantics are creating an understanding gap that isn't quite as wide as either of us thinks it is.


Yeah, a full-strength Pittsburgh team was dropping games left and right to mediocrities.

Well, over the last two seasons they haven't been dropping games left and right to anyone but Brady and we can add Peyton Manning to that list.

So ya' may have me there. ;)


Yeah, Kitna had a good season in 2003. Against a relatively weak schedule...

Hmn...that's a slippy slope and methinks you may be on a teflon sled.

In 2003, the Bengals played teams who finished that season with a combined record of 96-112. In 2005, Bengals opponents posted a combined record of 99-109. The 2003 Bengals played 6 games against teams that qualified for the playoffs that year and posted a 3-3 record in those games. The 2005 Bengals posted a 2-3 record in the five games they played against Playoff teams.

If Kitna's numbers were bolstered by playing "relatively weak schedule", then wouldn't logic dictate that Palmer also finished with inflated numbers due to playing a similarly mediocre schedule?

Is that something you believe?


...with a running back who, even if not at the top of his game nor completely healthy, was considered one of the best in the NFL.

I hope you're talking about Rudi Johnson because he was the Bengals primary Running Back in 2003 and significantly outplayed Corey Dillon. Cincinnati finished 13th in Rushing Yards per game in 2003 and 13th in 2005. They gained 4.1 Yards per attempt in 2003 and 4.2 Yards per attempt in 2005.

There was no difference whatsoever.


Since 2003 he's thrown 133 NFL passes, not counting the playoff. Over the course of his career, Kitna has about a 75 rating, but nearly as many INTs as TDs, plus his well known difficulty holding onto the ball.

Kitna fumbled 7 times in 2003. Palmer fumbled 6 times in 2005.


He's 34 years old, his arm strength is in decline, and he's been a clipboard holder for two years. Oh, and in his one previous playoff game, he took a giant dump. Tommy Maddox had an 85 rating in 2002--feel as confident with him at the helm as Roethlisberger next week in Indianapolis?

Ah. So now Kitna is best represented by his first playoff start every six years ago, but I'm unable to use a more recent season to note that the guy was pretty good. Yeah. That's good reasoning.

And secondly, there isn't anyone on the planet who doesn't understand that Tommy Maddox was never the same after nearly being killed on the football field and degenerated from there. He lost his job to Roethisberger via injury, but it was like putting an animal out of it's misery. Not so with Kitna.


Kitna makes his living off dinks and dunks to the tight end and third receiver. Witness Kevin Walter's busy day on Sunday. Palmer uses his stronger arm to get to playmakers like Houshmandzadeh and Johnson.

Please. If you're a QB, you throw to whoever is open. In 2003, Charles Johnson was the 4th leading receiver in the NFL and finished 12th in Yards per Catch.

Using your one-game logic, Cedric Wilson is Ben Roethsiberger's only real option.


Kitna's weak arm allows teams to push their safeties forward because the deep ball is not a threat. With Palmer it is a constant threat, even if the number of actual completed plays is relatively low. Palmer's superior skill set opens up the line of scrimmage, Kitna allows teams to bring more pressure and ignore the deep ball.

First, something is only a "threat" if that team demonstrates they'll do it consistently. Secondly, if the deep ball isn't as much of an option, then you adjust. Marv and Co. did, but then they couldn't adjust to the adjustment. All you're really telling me is that the Bengals got out-coached.


LeBeau effectively exploited the Bengals offense in the second half. He could not do it in the second game in Pittsburgh. The only major difference: no Carson Palmer.

The Bengals played two games versus Pittsburgh this season. They lost one and Palmer looked three shades of awful. Just wanted to make sure you knew that. The Steelers had their starting Left Tackle in the first game. He was on the sidelines in street clothes last Sunday and it wasn't due to injury. In the last game against the Bengals, Ben Roethlisberger experienced pain every single time he threw the ball due to what could only have been a hairline fracture of his thumb. Y'know what happened? He couldn't throw the deep ball, zip accurate passes over the middle, or get a real feel for much.

So, no. Emphatically no. There were major differences on the other sideline versus the Pittsburgh team the Bengals played on December 4th. I never ONCE used those issues to excuse a Pittsburgh loss.

But I did tell everyone within earshot that if the Steelers could put up 31 points on the Bengals with those deficiencies, the Bengals would be facing a quick playoff elimination.


I'm not freaking making excuses. I'm trying to figure out why they fell apart in the second half. You lose your best player, crap happens. Injuries are part of the game. Let's not forget that six weeks later that "no-guts" "no-heart" team went into your house, in a game you HAD to win, and won. It was ugly, but they got the job done. Just like Pittsburgh did on Sunday. No one questioned the guts and heart of those lunch pail Steelers when the Bengals won the division at Heinz Field.

If you're trying to figure out why the Bengals fell apart in the second half, you should look no further than their Defense.


I'll promise you one thing: if it had been Duane Cleamons or John Thornton blowing up Roethlisberger's knee on the second play and the Bengals took advantage of Maddox or Bunch, you'd have seen nothing more than muted celebrations from me, at least. I want desperately to beat the Steelers, and I'd have been happy to advance, but I'd have known on some level we didn't get your best shot. That's just me though.

As someone who has supported this team through bad and worse, I just felt unbelievably cheated at losing the franchise four minutes in. I think that's perfectly reasonable. But you want to ride out this ridiculous moral superiority that Steelers fans seem to think they earned by birthright, fine.

What a bunch of bunk. I was chatting with Bengals fans from here at the website they've set up. I was openly concerned about Carson Palmer. At no point did I watch the drives the Bengals (sans Palmer) were making and note that it was only a matter of time for the other shoe to drop on your franchise. I was openly concerned at every moment a dramatically surprised when the Steelers were able to overcome...hmn...what's that word?? Oh yeah, ADVERSITY after being down by 10 points twice and allowing a drive that should have resulted in a field goal on the Bengal's first drive of the second half.

Maybe I'm just stupid or something, but at that point I sure figured that the Bengals had a better-than-10% chance to win that game regardless of the Quarterback.


EDIT: Oh, and incidentally:

http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/13353501.ht

Yeah, I clicked on that link and noticed there was a passage you failed to cut-and-paste into your response:

Hines Ward: "I know of him, so he's not a dirty guy," said Ward, who, like Thurman, played at Georgia. "He's just out there running around trying to make plays. In the course of going down low and trying to tackle the guy, you're trying to play until the whistle's over. Fortunately they got a penalty and, luckily, Ben didn't get hurt."

Seems that Ward completely understood the play. Secondly, he never said anything about "retribution". He only stated that "You make a note of the guy and make sure it doesn't happen again." That's not a "threat" of retribution. That's just a comment that if it happens again, you might conclude that it's not an accident anymore.

Seriously, if you're going to take partial quotes out of context, please do a better job of it.

SteelSD
01-12-2006, 05:34 AM
Why shouldn't Ben be upset if he was not the one, after Sunday's game, to bring up or re-hash the previous situation with the Thurman hit? Who brought it up first? If it was Ben, then you'd have a valid point maybe. But was it Ben or Lewis? And IF Lewis, then why, when he says he doesn't want to add any more fuel to this rivalry?

I'm not a Pittsburgh fan at all (believe me).... but I remember when Ben made that statement after that earlier game. It was one statement when he was asked by a Pitt media type about that hit. Ok - he thought Thurman was trying to hurt him. It was the local Pitt paper that posted his comments. I don't see any where after that where Ben was carrying it over or trying to further make a big deal of it.

Yep. Exactly. I can understand that in the immediate aftermath of a game some things are said that shouldn't be- particularly when the guy being interviewed is a 23 year-old kid. Furthermore, we're talking about a guy (Roethlisberger) who's missed games this season with knee injuries caused by on-the-field hits. He was frustrated obviously. He shouldn't have added the "dirty" comment for sure. That was bad, but it was a young guy being grumpy about ANOTHER hit to an area he's already had to come back from. And, to my knowledge, he never said word one about it again.

It is, however, ironic that Marvin Lewis spent more time crying about the hit to Palmer than Ben "cried" about the hit he took after Marvin called Ben out for his behavior. But I can sort of understand that as well because the Bengals just lost their franchise QB for months and he may never be the same. That sucks. But that doesn't absolve Marvin Lewis for being intellectually dishonest.

Reading the "article' Playadlc posted, it appears that the writer is being overly-bold in positioning his opinion before the actual quotes. Case in point:


Cowher went after more than just Lewis.

“The last thing we ever do is comment on things that their players say,” Cowher said. “I could have a whole press conference with some of the things that come from that team. I would like to think it was said out of frustration.”

Cowher didn't "go after" anyone with those words. No one. Not a player. Not a coach. No one. That writer needs a lession in journalistic integrity.


Palmer was asked if the hit on him was malicious and meant to try and injure him. Carson stated, knowing von Oelhoffen, that he didn't feel it was, and that's it's just an unfortunate aspect of the game of football. I've listened to Dave Lapham and a few others, and they feel the same way.

Palmer was very classy. I've never disliked the Bengals franchise and my opinion of them has been nothing but bolstered by Carson Palmer regardless of this injury. He's a real professional and a top-notch QB. I very much hope he beats the projections for recovery because the entire NFL would be better for it.


Wise words. Funny how it's suppose to apply to everyone else, but not to the Bengals, THEIR COACH, or their fans. ;)

That comment is smack dab in the heart right on.


And as much as I hate Scowler - He's right! Face it folks! These division rivals (Bengals, Browns, Pitt), and their fans, hate each other. We probably don't hear a 1/3 of the crap that is being said on that field. Nobody is innocent. And to assume one is at the expense of the other is being pretty naive.

The only team in the NFL I truly dislike is the Ravens. I like the Bengals a little bit. Even flew out to Cinci to take in a Bengals/Pitt game when the new stadium opened. Good friends with many Bengals fans. Kept telling them that with their offensive talent they'd have a good team in a few years.

At some point, I think Bengals/Pittsburgh could be a heck of a rivalry...if the Bengals would beat Pitt in a meaningful game.


A flag could have been thrown. But that is not the fault of Pittsburgh. Fault the officials. Or is the accusation now gonna fall that the officials favored Pitt?

I wouldn't even go there, GAC.


It's been a raging bonfire for the last 30 years. What's one more log gonna do?

From my perspecive it hasn't been anything near a raging bonfire. It's been a quick-lit match at times, but mostly I feel bad for Bengals fans that they haven't had anything resembling a winning organization recently. Heck, I was grumpy when I visited that the "Fire Brown' banners were removed so quickly.

So I can understand the dismay at losing their franchise QB on the 2nd play of their first playoff game in a billion years. What I can't understand is a good deal of the illogical reaction to that event.

Redsfaithful
01-12-2006, 09:21 AM
Plus the fact that the Carson-led Bengals had lost their last two games (the Bills???), and hadn't exactly been lighting it up over the last several regular season games.

They scored 38 against Pittsburgh, 23 against your Browns, and then 41 against Detroit. That's not lighting it up?

They were flat against Buffalo, I'll give you that, but Palmer only played two series against KC and a ton of reserves played that week.

GAC
01-12-2006, 10:54 AM
They scored 38 against Pittsburgh, 23 against your Browns, and then 41 against Detroit. That's not lighting it up?

Excuse me? But against Cleveland, throwing for 93 yds (the longest being 16) and having the worst QB rating this year (53.5%) is not "lighting it up" my friend. ;)


They were flat against Buffalo, I'll give you that, but Palmer only played two series against KC and a ton of reserves played that week.

Ah yes - the old "we were just flat" excuse for the QB rating of 86.1 vs Buffalo. It doesnt matter that Buffalo's defense is one of the worst in the NFL (29th), giving up 343 yds/game, and Palmer and company should have ate them up. The Bengals were just flat.

I had a co-worker try that on me after the Brown's game also. Don't give any credit to the opposition (coaching, defense, etc) - they had nothing to do with it. We were just flat. :rolleyes:

How many times are you gonna trod that excuse out whenever Palmer has an "off day"?

GAC
01-12-2006, 11:03 AM
From my perspecive it hasn't been anything near a raging bonfire.

Yeah, but you're a youngster when it comes to the old AFC Central days back in the 70's when these divisional teams were out there trying to kill each other. :lol:

Back then, if this play had ocurred, I'd have agreed that the defender was trying to take him out and hurt him. Because they were! :lol:

Today it's more BIG mouth talk and alot of taunting on that field.

M2
01-12-2006, 11:47 AM
They were flat against Buffalo, I'll give you that, but Palmer only played two series against KC and a ton of reserves played that week.

I'm surprised they blew off the KC game. Losing to a bad team like Buffalo is something you want to get out of your system. Coming back and showing a solid club like KC who's boss would have instilled a bit more confidence.

The Patriots blew off their last game too, but A) they'd been battered all season, B) they were playing their best football in December and C) it's a supremely level-headed club.

There's a head game associated with the postseason in most sports. Baseball's the exception. I maintain that's because you play so much in baseball that extraneous stuff doesn't have time to creep in and settle. The Bengals got torched by the Buffalo offense, hardly an imposing unit, and then they got waxed by KC. The Bengals were the worst defensive team of any of the playoff entrants and they'd just surrendered 74 points in two losses heading into their first playoff contest in forever. I've got to imagine the defense lacked confidence and, sure enough, the Steelers had their way with the Bengals defense.

If the plan was to go in and play like this was a CFL shootout, then it was doomed from the start. A good defense, and I'm under the impression Pittsburgh's got one of those, will take away some of your weapons (namely the run) and you're going to come up short. It's the same mistake the Redskins made back when the Raiders beat them in the Super Bowl after the 1983 season. The Skins had won a 37-35 shootout over the Raiders during the regular season and had an offense that overwhelmed most of its opponents. The team went in counting on 30+ points that never materialized (except for the Raiders). They had forgotten about the basics, something Joe Gibbs admitted to later, and the Raiders beat them up.

Anyway, it seems to me the Bengals defense had to be walking into that game questioning itself. Plus, giving up on the KC game (along with the Patriots letting Miami slide) sent the message to the Steelers that no one wanted any part of them. I'm not so sure the Bengals were built to win for the postseason in the first place, but my take is that any NFL club that walks into the playoffs on a slide isn't likely to stick around very long. That's the kind of club that folds when things start to go wrong. Note that the Steelers didn't fold when the Bengals were up early in the game. You've got to be able to take a punch.

deltachi8
01-12-2006, 12:03 PM
If the plan was to go in and play like this was a CFL shootout, then it was doomed from the start.

Also ask the Buffalo Bills in any of their 4 Super Bowl losses, especially Super Bowl 25.

Blimpie
01-12-2006, 01:02 PM
The Patriots blew off their last game too, but A) they'd been battered all season, B) they were playing their best football in December and C) it's a supremely level-headed club.The Patriots also knew that if they somehow "managed" to lose to the Dolphins in Week # 17, then they would host Jacksonville instead of Pittsburgh in their wild card playoff game.

While nobody has ever or will ever accuse Bill Belichek of tanking a game...... :nono: he had to be wary of the fact that their playoff chances were better facing Jacksonville (warm weather team that was starting a rusty QB) versus Pittsburgh (physical running team that was rolling teams by three TD's per game during the month of December).

Just an observation.

GAC
01-12-2006, 01:02 PM
I'm surprised they blew off the KC game. Losing to a bad team like Buffalo is something you want to get out of your system. Coming back and showing a solid club like KC who's boss would have instilled a bit more confidence.

The Patriots blew off their last game too, but A) they'd been battered all season, B) they were playing their best football in December and C) it's a supremely level-headed club.

There's a head game associated with the postseason in most sports. Baseball's the exception. I maintain that's because you play so much in baseball that extraneous stuff doesn't have time to creep in and settle. The Bengals got torched by the Buffalo offense, hardly an imposing unit, and then they got waxed by KC. The Bengals were the worst defensive team of any of the playoff entrants and they'd just surrendered 74 points in two losses heading into their first playoff contest in forever. I've got to imagine the defense lacked confidence and, sure enough, the Steelers had their way with the Bengals defense.

If the plan was to go in and play like this was a CFL shootout, then it was doomed from the start. A good defense, and I'm under the impression Pittsburgh's got one of those, will take away some of your weapons (namely the run) and you're going to come up short. It's the same mistake the Redskins made back with the Raiders beat them in the Super Bowl after the 1983 season. The Skins had won a 37-35 shootout over the Raiders during the regular season and had an offense that overwhelmed most of its opponents. The team went in counting on 30+ points that never materialized (except for the Raiders). They had forgotten about the basics, something Joe Gibbs admitted to later, and the Raiders beat them up.

Anyway, it seems to me the Bengals defense had to be walking into that game questioning itself. Plus, giving up on the KC game (along with the Patriots letting Miami slide) sent the message to the Steelers that no one wanted any part of them. I'm not so sure the Bengals were built to win for the postseason in the first place, but my take is that any NFL club that walks into the playoffs on a slide isn't likely to stick around very long. That's the kind of club that folds when things start to go wrong. Note that the Steelers didn't fold when the Bengals were up early in the game. You've got to be able to take a punch.


Excellent post and analogy.

M2
01-12-2006, 01:24 PM
The Patriots also knew that if they somehow "managed" to lose to the Dolphins in Week # 17, then they would host Jacksonville instead of Pittsburgh in their wild card playoff game.

While nobody has ever or will ever accuse Bill Belichek of tanking a game...... :nono: he had to be wary of the fact that their playoff chances were better facing Jacksonville (warm weather team that was starting a rusty QB) versus Pittsburgh (physical running team that was rolling teams by three TD's per game during the month of December).

Just an observation.

Exactly. No one wanted the Steelers. Both the Patriots and Bengals sent that message loud and clear. That had to make the players in Pittsburgh feel like worldbeaters. Meanwhile the players on the Bengals had to have in the back of their minds that this is the team they tried to duck.

If the Bengals hadn't lost to Buffalo I could see taking the week off against KC so that you didn't get banged up, but that club probably need to right the ship against the Chiefs, establish for its own peace of mind that it was ready to do battle in the playoffs.

Redsfaithful
01-12-2006, 01:43 PM
Excuse me? But against Cleveland, throwing for 93 yds (the longest being 16) and having the worst QB rating this year (53.5%) is not "lighting it up" my friend. ;)

Sure, but you said they were hardly lighting it up towards the end of the season, which isn't anywhere close to reality.




Ah yes - the old "we were just flat" excuse for the QB rating of 86.1 vs Buffalo. It doesnt matter that Buffalo's defense is one of the worst in the NFL (29th), giving up 343 yds/game, and Palmer and company should have ate them up. The Bengals were just flat.

I had a co-worker try that on me after the Brown's game also. Don't give any credit to the opposition (coaching, defense, etc) - they had nothing to do with it. We were just flat. :rolleyes:

How many times are you gonna trod that excuse out whenever Palmer has an "off day"?

Palmer and company did eat the Bills up. The Bills won because of great special teams and a late interception return for a touchdown.

No idea why I'm still arguing about this, but there you go.

The Bengals were a flawed football team, and I don't think anyone has ever said differently. I just think most Bengals fans are frustrated that the Steelers didn't get the Bengals best shot on Sunday, which I think is pretty valid. But of course you've got Steeler fans who want to convince themselves that Kitna is close enough to the Bengals best shot for it not to matter, which is the only reason this thread has run as long as it has.

traderumor
01-12-2006, 06:03 PM
I am a firm believer that the truth will always come out. Hence, no flag on Kimo Sunday. It just happened too fast :evil:


NFL Refs Admit 'Everything Just Happens So Fast'

January 12, 2006 | Onion Sports

TAMPA, FL—Just hours after officiating the Buccaneers-Redskins wild-card playoff game, referee Mike Carey admitted that "everything happens so fast out there it's a miracle we see anything at all." "Believe me, pro football is one quick game, and the rules are pretty intricate," said Carey, who admits he probably misses half the infractions that occur in a normal NFL matchup. "Especially the pass interference and defensive holding stuff, who can put hands on who at what point, I can hardly keep it straight—and I'm one of the quick ones. I have no idea how a guy like, say, Ed Hochuli keeps it all together." NFL director of officiating Mike Pereira stated Monday that Carey would not be reprimanded for his unusually frank comments, saying that he himself "almost never even sees stuff like clipping or hands to the face."

Johnny Footstool
01-12-2006, 06:15 PM
Carey does a good job, but gets a little too dramatic when he announces his calls.

"Pass Interference...

...

(wait for it)

...

OFFENSE!"

Jaycint
01-12-2006, 06:55 PM
At some point, I think Bengals/Pittsburgh could be a heck of a rivalry...if the Bengals would beat Pitt in a meaningful game.



Umm yeah because the game in Pittsburgh certainly wasn't meaningful to the division and the Bengals and Steelers playoff hopes at the time. Right. There's that typical Steeler fan arrogance the rest of us know and love.

My season will be complete when Edgerrin James runs over Joey Porter on a touchdown run this weekend and then stands over him and talks trash. Congrats, the Steelers season lasted 6 days more than ours.

traderumor
01-12-2006, 07:06 PM
From my perspecive it hasn't been anything near a raging bonfire. It's been a quick-lit match at times, but mostly I feel bad for Bengals fans that they haven't had anything resembling a winning organization recently. Heck, I was grumpy when I visited that the "Fire Brown' banners were removed so quickly.

So I can understand the dismay at losing their franchise QB on the 2nd play of their first playoff game in a billion years. What I can't understand is a good deal of the illogical reaction to that event.
You'd make a great Buckeyes fan. Pittsburgh had its time as the sad sack franchise once, I would imagine it could happen again. The Steelers had one great run with the Steel Curtain, Bradshaw, Swann, Harris & Co and have won exactly no Super Bowls since those days, yet you'd think the NFL couldn't exist without Pittsburgh.

No thanks for the pity either;)

LawFive
01-12-2006, 07:54 PM
Channel 5 - Ken Broo had Carson's surgeon on a phone interview this evening and the surgeon confirmed that 3 ligaments had been torn. Not 2 as previously reported. Minimum 9 month rehab - and that's if all goes supremely well.

traderumor
01-12-2006, 08:36 PM
Channel 5 - Ken Broo had Carson's surgeon on a phone interview this evening and the surgeon confirmed that 3 ligaments had been torn. Not 2 as previously reported. Minimum 9 month rehab - and that's if all goes supremely well.Well that makes no sense. The short article after the surgery made it sound like things weren't as messed up as previously thought :confused:

I don't think is as pessimistic sounding as the report you just gave:


Doc optimistic Palmer can start season

By GEOFF HOBSON
January 12, 2006

6 p.m.

Although his patient suffered what he called “severe ligament damage,” Carson Palmer’s surgeon is optimistic that the Bengals quarterback can return in time for the start of the regular season.

Dr. Lonnie Paulos also said Thursday that much hinges on the next few months of rehab and how it heals, “things that are really out of my control and Carson’s control. We need to give it a few months. But he’s got an excellent chance to be back playing as well as he did before.”

Paulos says the normal time frame for recovery for reconstructive knee surgery is nine to 12 months, but he thinks Palmer will be back “long before that,” even though he called it an atypical tear of the anterior cruciate ligament.

“The knee cap slipped off to the side and caused some damage,” Paulos said. “It’s not the usual ACL tear, but we don’t believe this is going to be a career-ending injury. Really, it comes down to rehab and determination, and knowing Carson, he’s going to do what he has to do.”

Palmer left for home Thursday to begin rehab in California after Paulos operated Tuesday at the Houston Medical Center.

Paulos, 59, who is establishing the Baylor University Sports Medicine Clinic in Waco, Tex., surfaced as the surgeon once Palmer and his people told the Bengals they preferred an independent doctor rather than a team doctor to do the operation. The landscape in pro sports has changed since Paulos was literally on the cutting edge of sports medicine in Cincinnati a generation ago.

“Now it’s a more involved process with the family, the agents, the team,” Paulos said. “I know the sports medicine community very well in Cincinnati and he’ll be well taken care of by the team with the Bengals. He’s in excellent hands.”

The Bengals know Paulos well enough that they referred him to Palmer and Palmer decided to go with the recommendation. In 1978, Paulos and Dr. Frank Noyes formed Cincinnati’s first sports medicine clinic at One Lytle Place, where Paulos worked on some Bengals and Reds. It is Noyes, Paulos says, that did much of the definitive research on the ACL.

“Frank showed that it was the athlete’s ligament,” Paulos said. “It’s the one that’s used for running and jumping and pivoting. He demonstrated that without it, you can’t do it. Before Frank did that work, people didn’t think the ACL was very important.”

During the three–hour procedure to repair the ACL as well as the medial collateral ligament, Paulos grafted Palmer’s own tissue as well as tissue from organ donors to reconstitute and augment the damaged anatomy in the region between the tibia and femur.

Palmer wore a brace on his knee since he sprained his MCL in the same knee back in December of 2004, and Paulos said he and the team could end up opting to wear a brace that provides more protection.

Like everyone else, Paulos, who is a partner in the group that administers to the Texans and University of Houston, came away impressed with Palmer.

“He’s bright, he’s committed, you can see it in his eyes,” he said.

Yes, Paulos did look at the play before surgery, and watched Steelers defensive end Kimo von Oelhoffen’s hit on Palmer’s knee a few times.

“Sometimes the speed of the play, the angle, can give you a better idea of what you’re going to find,” Paulos said. “But no matter how much you see it, you really don’t know until he’s asleep on the table and you go into the knee with the microscope.”

And here’s a second opinion from the good doctor:

“A clean hit,” Paulos said. “It was an accident. No athlete would ever do something to another athlete like that on purpose.”

GAC
01-12-2006, 08:51 PM
Sure, but you said they were hardly lighting it up towards the end of the season, which isn't anywhere close to reality.

Sure it is. I showed you Palmer's stats and QB rating in those last few games. It wasn't anywhere near what he was doing prior to that. And then of course there were these two consecutive losses. But then again, that also gets back to the earlier contention that this defense is mediocre, and was downright atrocious in the last 7 games. I guess it all depends on how YOU want to define "lighting up"? :lol:


But of course you've got Steeler fans who want to convince themselves that Kitna is close enough to the Bengals best shot for it not to matter, which is the only reason this thread has run as long as it has.

Haven't seen where any Steeler fan(s) have stated or implied that on here.

Dom Heffner
01-12-2006, 08:53 PM
I had a co-worker try that on me after the Brown's game also. Don't give any credit to the opposition (coaching, defense, etc) - they had nothing to do with it. We were just flat.

GAC, may your dreams be filled with Ernest Byner running for the endzone and then....

John Elway, John Elway, John Elway.

:)

Dom Heffner
01-12-2006, 08:58 PM
At some point, I think Bengals/Pittsburgh could be a heck of a rivalry...if the Bengals would beat Pitt in a meaningful game.

Had you won that game, it would have meant you won the division.

Jaycint
01-12-2006, 09:01 PM
Had you won that game, it would have meant you won the division.

Exactly. For some reason that one doesn't count as meaningful though , Dom. :dunno:

Falls City Beer
01-12-2006, 09:21 PM
Had you won that game, it would have meant you won the division.

Careful, you're sounding like an "illogical reactor." ;)

deltachi8
01-12-2006, 09:23 PM
Pittsburgh had its time as the sad sack franchise once, I would imagine it could happen again.

Yes they did, before the Bengals were born.


The Steelers had one great run with the Steel Curtain, Bradshaw, Swann, Harris & Co and have won exactly no Super Bowls since those days

Which ties them with the Bengals I suppose. Of course they have had a few of those division titles along the way that the Bengals are (and should be) pointing to this year.


yet you'd think the NFL couldn't exist without Pittsburgh.

who said that? or implied that?


My season will be complete when Edgerrin James runs over Joey Porter on a touchdown run this weekend and then stands over him and talks trash. Congrats, the Steelers season lasted 6 days more than ours.


if it makes you feel better because your team isnt playing, enjoy.


Had you won that game, it would have meant you won the division.

Or the Jax game or the Balt game or ...And if the Bengals has won the first meeting, it means they are playing KC and not Pittsburgh last weekend. Ifs and buts...

Dom Heffner
01-12-2006, 09:30 PM
Or the Jax game or the Balt game or ...And if the Bengals has won the first meeting, it means they are playing KC and not Pittsburgh last weekend. Ifs and buts...

Well, using that argument, no game is meaningful....heck, everyone could be 16-0 if they'd only won every single game.

I can just hear the announcers now in the final weeks of the season, playing for the division, and they come on and say, "Well, ordinarily this would have been a meaningful game, but both of these teams lost earlier in the year to teams they should have beaten, so this really isn't all that meaningful..."

As well, if you would have only beaten those sorry Bengals at home you could have won the division, but you didn't.

Enjoy your butt kicking. I've never been more of a Manning fan in my life than this weekend. You guys gave them such a good game last time out. It was actually kind of cool, because I got to go to bed early after about 10 seconds into the Colts first drive. You guys really came to play.

Maybe if you win Polamalu can shave his head. Does he use special conditioner for those glowing locks?

Reds Fanatic
01-12-2006, 09:34 PM
I have some really bad news. Suddenly the reports are coming out that this injury is worse than what the previously said. What was with the reports on the Bengals website yesterday that it went better than expected. Here is a report on Sports Illustrated's website

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/football/nfl/specials/playoffs/2005/01/12/bc.fbn.palmer.surgery.ap/index.html


CINCINNATI (AP) -- Carson Palmer's knee injury was "devastating and potentially career-ending," involving numerous ligament tears, a shredded ligament, damaged cartilage and a dislocated kneecap, his surgeon said Thursday.

The Cincinnati Bengals quarterback tore ligaments in his left knee when he was hit by Pittsburgh's Kimo von Oelhoffen on his first pass during the Steelers' 31-17 playoff victory Sunday.

The team announced that he had torn the anterior cruciate and medial collateral ligaments. The damage was much more extensive and severe, but Dr. Lonnie Paulos said surgery went well and Palmer could be back for the start of the season.

Palmer had surgery Tuesday in Houston. Doctors used grafts from other parts of his body and donated tissue to fix the damage during an operation that lasted more than two hours. Palmer headed back to California on Thursday to do his rehabilitation.

"It's not just like it was a torn ACL," Paulos said Thursday, in a phone interview from Houston. "It's a magnitude more difficult to recover from and repair. It can and has ended careers, without a doubt.

"However, I feel very comfortable with Carson as an athlete and the heart that he's got. In the end, that's the bottom line. I can see the look in his eye already. He's ready to get going."

Paulos, an orthopedic surgeon who has worked with the U.S. Ski Team since 1983, replaced the anterior cruciate ligament, which runs through the middle of the knee and provides stability. He said the medial collateral ligament, which runs along the side of the knee, was damaged "real bad."

"On a scale of 1 to 3, it was a 4," he said. "It was off the chart. It was pretty badly damaged -- shredded is the better term."

The kneecap dislocated when Palmer was hit, damaging tissue around it. There also was some cartilage damage, he said.

Paulos was able to repair the knee without removing pieces of cartilage or soft tissue, a good sign.

"The things that were torn could be repaired," he said. "They were not torn beyond repair. So he's got all his parts in there, which is good. We're optimistic, actually."

If rehabilitation goes well, Palmer could be running in a couple of months and might be able to play in the first regular season game, Paulos said. The 2006 schedule hasn't been set.

Palmer has worn a protective brace on the left knee since he sprained it near the end of the 2004 season. The knee bowed inward on von Oelhoffen's hit even though Palmer was wearing the brace,

"The brace didn't function well in this environment and should have done better than it did, frankly," Paulos said.

The plan is for Palmer to wear more substantial braces on both knees when he returns.

"No brace is perfect," Paulos said. "No brace can prevent every injury, but they do help."

Paulos saw the replay of the injury and wasn't surprised at the extent of the damage it caused. Palmer has absolved von Oelhoffen, saying he didn't think the lineman was trying to hurt him. The lineman said he was trying to sack Palmer, not injure him. He wasn't penalized for the hit.

Palmer made the Pro Bowl in only his second season as a starter, throwing an NFL-leading 32 touchdown passes. The club extended his contract through the 2014 season.

Jon Kitna, who has been Palmer's backup and mentor the last two years, can become a free agent. Palmer's injury will force the Bengals to make sure they have another reliable quarterback on board.

Falls City Beer
01-12-2006, 09:36 PM
I have some really bad news. Suddenly the reports are coming out that this injury is worse than what the previously said. What was with the reports on the Bengals website yesterday that it went better than expected. Here is a report on Sports Illustrated's website


Bush league play has consequences.

deltachi8
01-12-2006, 09:37 PM
Well, using that argument, no game is meaningful....heck, everyone could be 16-0 if they'd only won every single game.



All games are meaningful when you only play 16, they carry the same weight in my book (the ones i listed).

It just seems the Steelers are more important to the Bengals in terms of a rivalry they the Bengals are to the Steelers.

I have been a Steeler fan forever and never hated the Bengals, never really cared. I thought they were fun to watch sometimes, but they didnt bother me and still dont. For me, Baltimore, New England, Jacksonville, Cleveland all come before Cincy in the rivalry-o-meter.

That could change if both teams continue to be good and play well against each other, which I fully expect.


Maybe if you win Polamalu can shave his head. Does he use special conditioner for those glowing locks? Does TJ? Maybee they can share tips. I'm sure his Somoan background has taught him well how to take care of the hair. Hey, he can pick up some products to do while in Hawaii next month.

traderumor
01-12-2006, 09:48 PM
I have some really bad news. Suddenly the reports are coming out that this injury is worse than what the previously said. What was with the reports on the Bengals website yesterday that it went better than expected. Here is a report on Sports Illustrated's website

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/football/nfl/specials/playoffs/2005/01/12/bc.fbn.palmer.surgery.ap/index.html
It looks like the original "source" got fed some misinformation at some point. I originally thought the doctor had made the comments on the original news coming out on the surgery, but it was just some anonymous source.

traderumor
01-12-2006, 09:53 PM
All games are meaningful when you only play 16, they carry the same weight in my book (the ones i listed).

It just seems the Steelers are more important to the Bengals in terms of a rivalry they the Bengals are to the Steelers.

I have been a Steeler fan forever and never hated the Bengals, never really cared. I thought they were fun to watch sometimes, but they didnt bother me and still dont. For me, Baltimore, New England, Jacksonville, Cleveland all come before Cincy in the rivalry-o-meter.

That could change if both teams continue to be good and play well against each other, which I fully expect.

Does TJ? Maybee they can share tips. I'm sure his Somoan background has taught him well how to take care of the hair. Hey, he can pick up some products to do while in Hawaii next month.


Well, its condescending posts like this that I was referring to, even though it was Steel having pity on us poor Bengals fans that you were responding too. Fans of teams talking about "well, they're really not OUR rival" is always comical. As if the players pay attention to all that crap.

And TJ's descent is Middle Eastern, not Samoan. You need to brush up on things like that before trying to talk smack. ;)

Jaycint
01-12-2006, 09:57 PM
if it makes you feel better because your team isnt playing, enjoy.





Oh it will make me feel much better. I hate your team. I despise it. The loudmouth players, the loudmouth fans, the whole shebang. I'm just that hateful and shallow.

I will get much pleasure this weekend when a class organization, motivated by the comments made by Porter, thoroughly trounces you guys.

Hopefully Reggie Wayne scores a TD and pulls a terrible towel out of his pants and squats over it and pretends to take a dump.

deltachi8
01-12-2006, 09:58 PM
Well, its condescending posts like this that I was referring to, even though it was Steel having pity on us poor Bengals fans that you were responding too. Fans of teams talking about "well, they're really not OUR rival" is always comical. As if the players pay attention to all that crap.

And TJ's descent is Middle Eastern, not Samoan. You need to brush up on things like that before trying to talk smack. ;)

I dont talk smack. I state my opinions, dont name call (ok, i threw a sot at the browns in)And i was refering to Troy's heritage, not TJ...just comparing their relative hair lengths. I may not heve been too clear.

Maybee becaue Im a Reds fan i don't hate the Bengals. I dunno. Same reason perhapps I dont hate the Pirates.

deltachi8
01-12-2006, 10:00 PM
Oh it will make me feel much better. I hate your team. I despise it. The loudmouth players, the loudmouth fans, the whole shebang. I'm just that hateful and shallow.

I will get much pleasure this weekend when a class organization, motivated by the comments made by Porter, thoroughly trounces you guys.

Hopefully Reggie Wayne scores a TD and pulls a terrible towel out of his pants and squats over it and pretends to take a dump.

This is getting funny. Thanks for the laughs guys...that one made me laugh out loud.

Hey, we'll see what happens come Sunday. Maybee they win, maybee they don't, they already won more than I thought they would this year.

Jaycint
01-12-2006, 10:09 PM
This is getting funny. Thanks for the laughs guys...that one made me laugh out loud.

Hey, we'll see what happens come Sunday. Maybee they win, maybee they don't, they already won more than I thought they would this year.

All in good fun Delt, all in good fun. :beerme:

westofyou
01-12-2006, 10:10 PM
I will get much pleasure this weekend when a class organizationNot that really care about the NFL... But....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/almanac/video/1984/baltimore.move/baltimore.move.jpg

westofyou
01-12-2006, 10:13 PM
For me, Baltimore, New England, Jacksonville, Cleveland all come before Cincy in the rivalry-o-meter.Well of course they do... the Bengals are the Rip Van Winkle of the NFL, However take the Ravens (Browns) out of that mix and tell me how it was in the late 80's?

Jaycint
01-12-2006, 10:15 PM
Not that really care about the NFL... But....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/almanac/video/1984/baltimore.move/baltimore.move.jpg

lol, I was speaking primarily about the players WOY, good point though. :)

deltachi8
01-12-2006, 10:31 PM
Not that really care about the NFL... But....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/almanac/video/1984/baltimore.move/baltimore.move.jpg

another laugh out loud...my son actually is wondering whats so funny. too hard to explain...

The late 80's...Cleveland, Houston come to mind. I didnt mean to be patronizing or downplaying the Bengals, I just never disliked them like other teams. I rooted for them in both Super Bowls. I like the city and the baseball team, so Im sure that has a bunch to do with it.

M2
01-13-2006, 02:06 AM
Actually, just as a sports fan, I'm a little envious of Steelers fans.

If you think back on it, the Steel Curtain was the 1970s equivalent of the BRM, a small city team that grabbed ahold of one of Zeus' lightning bolts and rode it for a decade. Even after that, Steelers fans have had it good. They almost always get a good team to watch. It always plays a hard-hitting brand of football. Man, I remember when a Reds fan entitled you to some high and mighty. It felt good to be a fan of a franchise that seemed to be one of the chosen few. Even into the '90s (with the notable exception of 1982-84) you could walk around comfortable in the feeling that the Reds were an upper tier franchise, smiled upon by fate.

I miss those days. If I were a Steelers fan, I'd have my chest pumped way out. That's thirty-plus years of pride coming through the room.

And if fans of other, lesser franchises didn't like it when the colossus swatted them down? Well, that's nothing more than mosquitoes buzzing. They'll die off soon enough. The lifespan for their team's success is just a flicker compared to excellence that spans generations. Think about it like this - it's like Purdue football fans complaining about Ohio State. That's kind of cute and sad isn't it?

Anyway, I long for the day when I can again enjoy easy, complacent fandom, where winning is a given and the only burning question is how good will the team be. It sucks to be on the other end of it, but man is it sweet when you're there.

SteelSD
01-13-2006, 03:42 AM
Well, its condescending posts like this that I was referring to, even though it was Steel having pity on us poor Bengals fans that you were responding too. Fans of teams talking about "well, they're really not OUR rival" is always comical. As if the players pay attention to all that crap.

Players are going to be out to beat whomever is across the field. But they do tend to get themselves a bit wired up in a true "rivalry" matchup. The Bengals haven't represented one of those for many many moons.

As for my "pity"...

On November 26th, 2000 I walked into Paul Brown Stadium. I took my seat and looked around this very nice new football venue. My eye was first attracted to a HUGE "FIRE MIKE BROWN" banner hanging over the side of the opposite upper deck. It was removed by stadium security soon enough of course, but I was starting to get the idea.

Shortly thereafter, an airplane flew overhead with a banner trailing behind it. I wondered what they were advertising. The plane turned and the bright red letters on the banner read, "FIREMIKEBROWN.COM". The concept that someone hired an airplane to fly over the stadium with that message made a bit of an impact on me.

I couldn't even fathom the depths to which the Steelers franchise would have to sink to for someone to fly a plane over Heinz Field to deliver a message of "FIRE DAN ROONEY". Still can't fathom it.

Then I proceeded to watch Kordell Stewart and Co. put up 48 points on the Bengals in their excellent new stadium.

From that until later in this sentence, I don't believe I have ever used the word "Bungles" verbally or in print. I honestly felt bad for the fans with whom I attended the game. I'm a Steelers fan. Have been since I was a little kid. I've seen losing seasons, but I've never felt the kind of despair eminating from every molecule of every fan in every seat in that nice shiny new stadium.

I felt that Bengals fans deserved better than that. In fact, I hoped you'd eventually get better than that.

And you did. You got the 2005 season. And the playoffs. And then you lost Carson Palmer on the second play of that playoff game. And that sucked for you.

But when Palmer went down you were left with a bonafide quality professional NFL football team. One of those can beat anyone on any given Sunday. And that Bengals team played like it for the first 35 minutes. And then they didn't. For many reasons- a ton of them not spelled "Jon Kitna".

Did I know the Bengals weren't at full strength? Sure. Did I care? No more than you did when the Steelers had to play the December 4th game while not at optimal strength. Difference is I didn't go on and on about how Roethisberger's knee and thumb issues might have ended up handing the Bengals the division or that December 4th contest. Injuries happen. It is, after all, the NFL. You either find a way to overcome adversity or you get eliminated.

In 2000 and before, the Bengals handed their fans a poor product. The result was that a majority of it's fan base was stuck in either a state of anger or deep despair. Fast forward to play two of Quarter one in Playoff Game one for the 2005 season. Anger and deep despair. Difference was you still had a quality product on the field. Anger and despair played in 2000. But it sure as heck doesn't play now. That's what you get when you're still able to put a quality NFL team on the field when your high-level QB goes down.

So no, I no longer feel sorry for the Bengals or their fans. That's the start of a rivalry. But it ain't the finish line.

traderumor
01-13-2006, 08:05 AM
For the first time, I went click by click back over the play at Bengals.com and can only come to one conclusion. The NFL did not want the blood on its hands for the dirty play. Fining Kimo would have essentially told the nation that one of the brightest stars in the game had been taken out by an aging, mediocre defensive lineman. Eric Steinbach tapped Kimo like you would a player who you want to be down by contact because it was too late for him to do anything. But watching that replay, click by click, there was no shove, there was no "off balance 300 pound lineman," the only thing it was not is a late hit. Like FCB, I will concede that point. But there was an aimed shoulder dive at a QBs knees, with what intent I do not know, but it is inexcusable. If that makes me "irrational," so be it.

gonelong
01-13-2006, 11:55 AM
It just seems the Steelers are more important to the Bengals in terms of a rivalry they the Bengals are to the Steelers.


Well, at this point in time, thats probably true, but it was not always so. I don't think the CIN/PIT game reached the ferver of the PIT/CLE game, but it got close from time to time.

As a Buckeyes fan I had a few years of listening to MICH fans tell me that OSU wasn't even their biggest football rival (I'll buy that for every sport EXCEPT football) and after a few years of OSU handing it back to them all I hear now LLLLyod Carr. Thats what it'll take. The Bengals were able to get in a nice punch at PIT this year, but in the end, PIT came back and finished the fight. If CIN can land a few more punches next year, things will get more interesting. The next CIN/PIT game ought to be interesting, and I have little doubt that game will get ugly and be fuel to the fire.

At one time the CLE/CIN/PIT hate triangle was in full bloom, and it was glorious. Four "rivaly" games a years, it was great. I think you'll see that out of CIN & PIT again very soon if its not already here. I'd love to see that again.

PIT has enjoyed a nice run at the top of the Division, but the Bengals are coming, and the Browns might not be all that far behind. It could be an interesting next 3-4 years inside the division.

Last night I watched the game again.

While I'd grant Kimo a Not Guilty, I wouldn't proclaim him innocent.

Kitna was worse than awful in the 2nd half. Flat out putrid.

Kevin Kaseveharn(sp) had a terrible game.

The Bengals defense is a saftey (assuming Williams is healthy) and a STUD interor lineman away from a pretty decent defense IMO.

GL

dsmith421
01-13-2006, 01:34 PM
I miss those days. If I were a Steelers fan, I'd have my chest pumped way out. That's thirty-plus years of pride coming through the room.

And if fans of other, lesser franchises didn't like it when the colossus swatted them down?

I think that's absolute, unmitigated garbage. People who are fans of successful franchises have no right to strut around like they are morally superior--more loyal, more intelligent, more worthy of success--than someone who roots for one of those "mosquitos." I'm a Bengals fan by a trick of geography. So are most Steelers fans.

I just wish people would cut the condescending crap. Pride in your team is fine, but that's where it ends. I can't control what Mike Brown or Marvin Lewis do, so don't impute their success/failure to me, just as no Pittsburgh fan deserves to have the success of Chuck Noll and Bill Cowher imputed to them.

(I may deserve Chuck Noll's success imputed to me due to our shared alma mater, but I digress.)

Playadlc
01-13-2006, 01:51 PM
Chick speaks out about hit...

Von Oelhoffen relishes role with Steelers
CINCINNATI — Our careers — covering the Bengals and playing for them — overlapped three seasons (1997-99). During that time, two things struck me about Kimo von Oelhoffen:

1) He wanted to be a firefighter when his playing days were over.

2) He absolutely loved playing against the Pittsburgh Steelers. He loved playing against ’em so much, you’d have sworn he wanted to be one — while he was a Bengal.

Each year during Steelers week, von Oelhoffen needed two Kleenex as he spoke, in awe, about the challenge of facing his idol, Steelers center Dermontti Dawson. One tissue to wipe the drool from his chin, the other to dab his starry, cloudy eyes.

So it was no surprise that when von Oelhoffen’s contract was up, he signed as an unrestricted free agent with the Steelers on Feb. 18, 2000. I’d have been shocked had he gone anywhere else.

Well, I learned something more about the 12-year veteran on Sunday. He’s a pretty good actor.

After his cheap shot on Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer, von Oelhoffen raised his hands to his helmet pretending to be sorry. I didn’t buy Kimo’s act then. I don’t buy it today. I won’t buy it tomorrow.

That the NFL didn’t fine von Oelhoffen, coupled with referee Larry Nemmers’ refusal to penalize him, is a double slap in the face of the Bengals organization.

E-mailers have flooded my inbox, seeking my opinion on the play. I answer them with one word. D-i-r-t-y. Because every hit on a quarterback below the waist in exactly that.

In exonerating von Oelhoffen, the league claimed he didn’t have an unrestricted path to the quarterback. It said he was coming off a block (by left guard Eric Steinbach), got thrown off the block and his path to Palmer wasn’t clear.

What I saw was von Oelhoffen hit the ground, then lunge into Palmer’s left knee, crushing his ACL and MCL.

My first thought: Where’s referee Bernie Kukar when you need him? Of the league’s 130-plus officials, he’s the No. 1 protector of quarterbacks.

Back on Dec. 4, Kukar threw the flag on Bengals linebacker Odell Thurman for roughing Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, and Kukar threw the flag on Steelers linebacker Clark Haggans for roughing Palmer. Nemmers never reached for his yellow hankie.

It’s wasted space to print here that the Bengals would’ve won the game had Palmer played its entirety. But it’s not too far-fetched to think, and claim, that the Steelers’ best chance at victory would be if Palmer got knocked out of the game.

Longtime Bengals observers still remember the night of Oct. 10, 1983, when Steelers defensive end Keith Gary yanked quarterback Ken Anderson’s head like a twist-off, soda-pop bottle. So von Oelhoffen’s dirty hit was hardly precedent-setting.

What genuinely surprised me was the Bengals’ reaction.

Instead of slamming Rudi Johnson and Chris Perry down the Steelers’ throats in a test of manhood, offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski allowed Jon “Crazy Legs” Kitna to heave 40 passes. Two got picked off.

And tell me this: How could the Bengals — with their franchise quarterback on crutches, his knee encased in ice and out until August — let Roethlisberger and von Oelhoffen escape Paul Brown Stadium without a bump or a bruise? I have a feeling they were too busy bickering at halftime.

Therein lies the difference between the two clubs.

One is hard. The other is soft.

Contact Chick Ludwig at (937) 225-2253.http://www.journal-news.com/sports/...3ludwigweb.html

Falls City Beer
01-13-2006, 01:58 PM
Actually, just as a sports fan, I'm a little envious of Steelers fans.

If you think back on it, the Steel Curtain was the 1970s equivalent of the BRM, a small city team that grabbed ahold of one of Zeus' lightning bolts and rode it for a decade. Even after that, Steelers fans have had it good. They almost always get a good team to watch. It always plays a hard-hitting brand of football. Man, I remember when a Reds fan entitled you to some high and mighty. It felt good to be a fan of a franchise that seemed to be one of the chosen few. Even into the '90s (with the notable exception of 1982-84) you could walk around comfortable in the feeling that the Reds were an upper tier franchise, smiled upon by fate.

I miss those days. If I were a Steelers fan, I'd have my chest pumped way out. That's thirty-plus years of pride coming through the room.

And if fans of other, lesser franchises didn't like it when the colossus swatted them down? Well, that's nothing more than mosquitoes buzzing. They'll die off soon enough. The lifespan for their team's success is just a flicker compared to excellence that spans generations. Think about it like this - it's like Purdue football fans complaining about Ohio State. That's kind of cute and sad isn't it?

Anyway, I long for the day when I can again enjoy easy, complacent fandom, where winning is a given and the only burning question is how good will the team be. It sucks to be on the other end of it, but man is it sweet when you're there.

The Steelers have been nothing more than "respectable" the last several decades. As has the entire Midwest in all sports outside of Detroit (Pistons & RWs) and Chicago (Bulls), St. Louis (Cards) and to a lesser degree Green Bay--the last 20 years or so.

The southern and western flight of citizenry's a bummer. The Midwest used to be home to great teams; not really so anymore (outside of the cities listed above).

The last twenty years of Steelers' fandom is hardly chest-puffing material. But even less so Browndom or Bengaldom.

rdiersin
01-13-2006, 02:07 PM
Think about it like this - it's like Purdue football fans complaining about Ohio State.

A little off topic, but when do Purdue fans complain about OSU? We mostly complain about our kickers not making $*(% field goals. Well that and many other things after this year.

Playadlc
01-13-2006, 02:08 PM
PIT has enjoyed a nice run at the top of the Division, but the Bengals are coming, and the Browns might not be all that far behind. It could be an interesting next 3-4 years inside the division.

The Bengals aren't coming, they are already there. Hence the AFC North division title.

gonelong
01-13-2006, 03:16 PM
The Bengals aren't coming, they are already there. Hence the AFC North division title.

IMO, one year doesn't put them "there" in a rivalyr sense, particularly since PIT went to the playoffs anyway, and beat the Bengals.

/lifelong Bengals fan

M2
01-13-2006, 03:28 PM
I think that's absolute, unmitigated garbage. People who are fans of successful franchises have no right to strut around like they are morally superior--more loyal, more intelligent, more worthy of success--than someone who roots for one of those "mosquitos." I'm a Bengals fan by a trick of geography. So are most Steelers fans.

I just wish people would cut the condescending crap. Pride in your team is fine, but that's where it ends. I can't control what Mike Brown or Marvin Lewis do, so don't impute their success/failure to me, just as no Pittsburgh fan deserves to have the success of Chuck Noll and Bill Cowher imputed to them.

(I may deserve Chuck Noll's success imputed to me due to our shared alma mater, but I digress.)

Sure they do. That's exactly what being a fan of a top-tier franchise entitles you to. It's a daily feel-good. It's being able to know that over the course of time you'll be smiling while others are gnashing their teeth. When you're the fan of a chosen franchise, sitting down to watch a game takes on a whole different feel. I remember when I was growing up in the Philly area and Phillies fans would complain about losing to the BRM. You could go into details I suppose, but the truth of the matter was we were going to beat you anyway. That's the way the universe worked at the time. Now, that's the first time in my personal history of posting about the Reds on the Internet that I've ever used the term we in reference to the club. Obviously I'm not part of the Reds. What I do doesn't reflect on them and what they do doesn't reflect on me. But I am a sports fan and sports fan are competitive sorts, so winning carries some privileges. Follow that out now and try to imagine the privileges associated with 30 years of winning.

Listen, I'm a Reds fan. I'm a New York Rangers fan. One of my best friends is a Flyers fan. We don't have to discuss it, but both of us know who's higher on the NHL food chain (though I can throw a 1975 dig in to bail myself out if I have to). The Flyers have always been good and the Rangers are often a disaster, though this year it looks like the Rangers are being saved by the Czech national team. If the Rangers somehow come out ahead of the Flyers this year my friend won't be happy, but you know what? He's still not going to sweat the Rangers next year because in this world the Rangers chase the Flyers. Just like the Coyote chases the Roadrunner. Wile E.'s the one always scowling, fretting about the latest plan and falling into ravines. The Roadrunner just gets to smile and go on his merry way. For him, life is good.

deltachi8
01-13-2006, 03:36 PM
Is Wile E. (perhapps my favorite cartoon character of all time) a perfect macot for the reds should they ever ditch Mr. Red and Gapper?