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princeton
12-29-2005, 02:28 PM
with every smart Bengals move, the Reds do something dumber

now that the Bengals used up dead cap space on a CPalmer extension, I'm expecting something incredibly bad, soon

like a DanO extension bad

KronoRed
12-29-2005, 02:47 PM
Or the Reds will also offer Palmer an extension ;)

SunDeck
12-29-2005, 02:50 PM
No WAY. He strikes out too much and can't hit the sac fly.

Reds4Life
12-29-2005, 03:04 PM
I doubt it will be a DanO extension, but I could see the new ownership group finally being approved and they leave Obie in place for the final season of his contract.

Another wasted year, just what we need! g0 r3dZ!1!!

Aronchis
12-29-2005, 03:52 PM
I doubt it will be a DanO extension, but I could see the new ownership group finally being approved and they leave Obie in place for the final season of his contract.

Another wasted year, just what we need! g0 r3dZ!1!!

This year is not wasted no matter how you look at it. New, is new.

FWIW, Palmer is the most overrated QB since..........well Boomer. He simply isn't that good. Get pressure on him and he melts. The Bengals have one of the worst D's in the game and are a weakening OL away from a much worse offense.

Does Cincinnati love flukes that much?

Heath
12-29-2005, 03:56 PM
I doubt it will be a DanO extension, but I could see the new ownership group finally being approved and they leave Obie in place for the final season of his contract.

Another wasted year, just what we need! g0 r3dZ!1!!

All I have to say about that is - for a guy with lots of lines out, DanO isn't getting any nibbles on the bait.

IMO - It's the quiet before the storm.

BUT - it's going to be too late for 2006.

macro
12-29-2005, 04:05 PM
This year is not wasted no matter how you look at it. New, is new.

FWIW, Palmer is the most overrated QB since..........well Boomer. He simply isn't that good. Get pressure on him and he melts. The Bengals have one of the worst D's in the game and are a weakening OL away from a much worse offense.

Does Cincinnati love flukes that much?

Steelers fan, are ya?

traderumor
12-29-2005, 04:46 PM
FWIW Not much. There's always someone that has to play the "overrated" card.

Aronchis
12-29-2005, 05:36 PM
Not much. There's always someone that has to play the "overrated" card.

Boomer wasn't overrated? If the Bengals had a good QB during the 80's with that top notch OL they had, they would have won the 88 Super Bowl and probably made the playoffs in 86 and 89. Boomer simply wasn't that good and their defense wasn't anything special to makeup for it.

Palmer likewise, is playing behind a OL that has improved from last year and to no surprise, have Palmer's stats. But can that OL play as well next year and into the future without a defense?

If the Bengals defense doesn't get better, things will go downhill and in a hurry.

pedro
12-29-2005, 05:40 PM
Just b/c Boomer was overrated doesn't mean Carson Palmer is. Palmer has already surpassed anything Boomer ever did statistics wise(over a single season) and he is only in his second season.

red-in-la
12-29-2005, 06:58 PM
Boomer wasn't overrated? If the Bengals had a good QB during the 80's with that top notch OL they had, they would have won the 88 Super Bowl and probably made the playoffs in 86 and 89. Boomer simply wasn't that good and their defense wasn't anything special to makeup for it.

Palmer likewise, is playing behind a OL that has improved from last year and to no surprise, have Palmer's stats. But can that OL play as well next year and into the future without a defense?

If the Bengals defense doesn't get better, things will go downhill and in a hurry.

Stick with being a baseball fan Aronchis......you seriously lack knowledge about football.

This defense you say is awful and won't get better his very young. Its leading safety has been out since week 3. Its other safety has missed pretty much the whole year.

Its future rushing LB missed half the season and several other key players have missed huge amounts of time. Don't forget that Lewis a a DEFENSIVE specialist and this defense will be a top rated one in ayear or two.

As to Palmer and Boomer.....yeah, right. Not sure you watch much football.

If not for Jerry Rice and a first quater broken leg by their top defensive player, the Boomer led Bengals likely would have beaten Joe Montana.

ochre
12-29-2005, 07:40 PM
Stick with being a baseball fan Aronchis......you seriously lack knowledge about football.

This defense you say is awful and won't get better his very young. Its leading safety has been out since week 3. Its other safety has missed pretty much the whole year.

Its future rushing LB missed half the season and several other key players have missed huge amounts of time. Don't forget that Lewis a a DEFENSIVE specialist and this defense will be a top rated one in ayear or two.

As to Palmer and Boomer.....yeah, right. Not sure you watch much football.

If not for Jerry Rice and a first quater broken leg by their top defensive player, the Boomer led Bengals likely would have beaten Joe Montana.
Not to mention Lewis Billups' dropped interception in the endzone.

Dang it. I promised myself I'd never mention that again.

MWM
12-29-2005, 07:46 PM
Have you been WATCHING? I don't see how anyone who's actually watched Palmer play this year could say these types of things.

TeamBoone
12-29-2005, 08:25 PM
Me either, MWM. His numbers are right up there with Brady and Manning. And he runs too!

And, for what it's worth, every good QB needs a good OL... without it, you'd never know if he's good or not because no QB, even a good one, can pass if he's on the ground every other play. A good OL allows a good QB to show just how good he is.

Dom Heffner
12-29-2005, 08:29 PM
FWIW, Palmer is the most overrated QB since..........well Boomer.

Um....no. That would be Ben Roethlisberger. He of the 12 of 15 for 160 yards and a TD each week fame.

If you think Carson Palmer is overrated, you need to wipe your eyes with that ugly yellow towel you probably sleep with.

I'll probably get murdered for saying this, but Joe Montana is probably the most overrated QB of all time. Put him on any other team and they don't win anything. Put him on the those late 80s Broncos teams and Cleveland plays in a few Super Bowls.

How many titles would Elway have had playing for the Niners?

redsfanmia
12-29-2005, 09:05 PM
Montana just made the big plays at the big time im not so sure that you could say he was overrated. I agree about Elway those Bronco teams he took to the super bowl had no business being there he just willed them there. Carson is a top 3 quarterback and will only improve.

SteelSD
12-30-2005, 02:35 AM
Um....no. That would be Ben Roethlisberger. He of the 12 of 15 for 160 yards and a TD each week fame.

Carson Palmer isn't overrated. Neither is Ben Roethlisberger. But then, you think Roethlisberger is really spelled "Dilfer", so I guess you wouldn't know.

Ben Roethlisberger 2005:

Games- 11
Passing Yards- 2,250
Attempts per Game- 22.9
Yards Per Game- 204.5
Yards Per Attempt- 8.93
Yards Per Completion- 13.98
20+ Yards- % of Attempts- 13.1%
20+ Yards- % of Completions- 20.1%
TD- % of Completions- 10.6%
INT- % of Attempts- 2.8%
Completion %- 63.9%
QB Rating- 103.4

Carson Palmer 2005:

Games- 15
Passing Yards- 3,782
Attempts per Game- 33.4
Yards Per Game- 252.1
Yards Per Attempt- 7.55
Yards Per Completion- 11.12
20+ Yards- % of Attempts- 8.3%
20+ Yards- % of Completions- 12.1%
TD- % of Completions- 9.4%
INT- % of Attempts- 2.4%
Completion %- 67.9%
QB Rating- 101.4

Palmer has had a heck of a season. Emphatically disagreeing with any assessment that declares him overrated is just fine.

But to then tab Big Ben as being the same type of overrated with THOSE numbers? He's not some kind of "play not to lose protect the ball" Trent Dilfer clone. He doesn't dink and dunk up and down the field. He plays far more in the intermediate distances than people think.

Heck, the guy has one more completion of over 40 Yards than Palmer in about half the total pass attempts this season. A whopping 20% of his completions have gone for 20+ yards. That's a rate equal to that of Peyton Manning circa 2004. I'm not comparing him to Manning. But when you chew up chunks of yardage like that while posting low INT rates, it means you're being incredibly efficient in areas that are real danger zones for lesser Quarterbacks.

And Roethlisberger has been doing it with a banged up knee, damaged right thumb, one WR of note, and has been playing the last few games behind a patchwork offensive line (including a rookie LT who didn't even dress for half the season).

Palmer and Roethlisberger are nearly performance clones of each other- each playing under a different offensive philosophy and neither being anything but outstanding. Palmer isn't better just because he's asked to do more. And Roethisberger isn't better because he does more per opportunity. Both have the arm, the guts, the poise and leadership ability that belies their age.

I would have loved to see Bradshaw and Staubach or Tarkington play in the same division in the '70's. If I were a Broncos fan, I'd have relished seeing Elway bump up against Marino twice a year every year in the 80's while fighting for the division. Frankly, both Steelers and Bengals fans should feel priviledged that we're going to get to watch Palmer and Roethisberger go at it twice a season for years to come.

And if you want to talk about the most overrated QB going right now, your search probably should both start and end in Atlanta.

Revering4Blue
12-30-2005, 05:03 AM
I'll probably get murdered for saying this, but Joe Montana is probably the most overrated QB of all time. Put him on any other team and they don't win anything.

I wouldn't go that far, but I do believe that the Niners would have won just as many Super Bowls with Steve Young as QB.


And if you want to talk about the most overrated QB going right now, your search probably should both start and end in Atlanta

True, but Vick is overrated for what he is, not for what he could be. In other words, he has all of the tools; just not utilizing all of them.

Palmer and/or Roethlisberger overrated? No way.

Steel's post says it all.

Heath
12-30-2005, 07:46 AM
Not to mention Lewis Billups' dropped interception in the endzone.

Dang it. I promised myself I'd never mention that again.

I thought Barney Bussey dropped that one?

ochre
12-30-2005, 10:12 AM
I thought Barney Bussey dropped that one?



[Reggie]Williams, however, remembers how Bengals teammate Lewis Billups dropped a sure interception in the end zone. That play allowed the 49ers to keep alive the fourth-quarter touchdown drive that ultimately made the difference in their dramatic 20-16 victory.
"I honestly feel Lewis had the inability to let go of the tragedy and that may have contributed to his problems later in life," says Williams, referring to Billups' prison stint and eventual death in a high-speed car crash. "He had the ball right in his belly. He came back to the huddle and you could tell, he was a devastated man. Another case of the hype gone awry."
http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/nfl/20030124-9999_mz1x24under.html
Which also talks about Stanley Wilson. Another key "what went wrong" with that super bowl team.

MWM
12-30-2005, 02:30 PM
Would people still talk about Montana making the big plays when they needed them had Billups no dropped the ball? That would have been one fo the biggest QB gaffs in Super Bowl history. I think John Elway is the best QB of all time, even though I'm not his biggest fan.

I don't think Ben or Carson are over-rated. They're both going to be in the top 5 QBs in the game for the next decade. It should make for a fun rivalry.

Dom Heffner
12-30-2005, 03:23 PM
I think John Elway is the best QB of all time, even though I'm not his biggest fan.

Agreed, but Manning is going to surpass that. It would be a hard argument to make that Elway was better than Manning is if he keeps this up.

Crash Davis
12-30-2005, 03:30 PM
Um....no. That would be Ben Roethlisberger.

:laugh:

MWM
12-30-2005, 03:49 PM
Agreed, but Manning is going to surpass that. It would be a hard argument to make that Elway was better than Manning is if he keeps this up.

I agree with that and have made that same statement before. I don't think he has to WIN a Super Bowl, but at some point he has to have some big-tim post season moments to be considered the best. But I have a feeling those will come because he's going to be in the playoffs many more times.

Dom Heffner
12-30-2005, 03:59 PM
I don't think he has to WIN a Super Bowl, but at some point he has to have some big-tim post season moments to be considered the best.

If he doesn't win a Super Bowl, you'll have a hard time convincing the knee-jerk sportscaster that he's better.

Peyton Manning hasn't not won a Super Bowl any more than Doug Williams won his.

I know we've talked about this before, but I hate when people confuse the argument of being the best at your position with winning a Super Bowl.

Is Anthony Munoz not one of the best tackles ever because he didn't win?

Is Trent Dilfer better than Dan Marino?

Trust me, when the Giants killed the Broncos in the Super Bowl, no one was seriously making the argument that Phil Simms was better than Elway.

Marino was awfully good, but he had no running game and no defense. Terrell Davis came along and changed Elways's legacy, which is a shame it had to change that way, because he was awesome with or without Davis.

MWM
12-30-2005, 05:16 PM
I agree completely, which is why I say he doesn't have to win a super bowl. But the post season counts and I believe he has to have some big success stories in the post-season. That doesn't include winning the SB.

red-in-la
12-31-2005, 06:25 PM
I wouldn't go that far, but I do believe that the Niners would have won just as many Super Bowls with Steve Young as QB.

Isn't this a bit like saying that the Yankess would have won just as many WS rings with Hank Aaron instead of Loe Gehrig?




True, but Vick is overrated for what he is, not for what he could be. In other words, he has all of the tools; just not utilizing all of them.

Palmer and/or Roethlisberger overrated? No way.

Steel's post says it all.

I don't care if Michael Vick is overrated or underrated.....I love watching this guy play the game. So quick and so fast......I guess you can say he is just like Barry Sanders was.....maybe he didn't lead his team to any Super Bowls....but he sure was great to watch.

redsfanmia
12-31-2005, 08:34 PM
I agree with that and have made that same statement before. I don't think he has to WIN a Super Bowl, but at some point he has to have some big-tim post season moments to be considered the best. But I have a feeling those will come because he's going to be in the playoffs many more times.


Peyton had a perfect quarterback rating in a play off game two years ago and was nearly perfect in two other playoff wins. The guy is a stud and its just a matter of a about 5 weeks before he gets his super bowl victory.

Dom Heffner
01-01-2006, 12:57 PM
The guy is a stud and its just a matter of a about 5 weeks before he gets his super bowl victory.

Though I will say, I don't feel as strongly about the Super Bowl as I once did.
Denver can be awfully tough, and if Chicago slips through the NFC side, it could be trouble for them. I'm not saying it's likely, I'm just saying I wouldn't rubber stamp it like I was willing to do before the Chargers game.