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View Full Version : Who makes the 2006 Baseball Hall of Fame?



FlyingPig
01-02-2006, 07:18 PM
the first timers for '06 are:

Rick Aguilera, Tim Belcher, Albert Belle, Will Clark, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie Guillen, Juan Guzman, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Lance Johnson, Doug Jones, Roberto Kelly, Mickey Morandini, Hal Morris, Jaime Navarro, Luis Polonia, Mike Stanley, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland, Mark Whiten

some of the ones still trying:

Bert Blyleven, Dave Concepcion, Andre Dawson, Steve Garvey, Goose Gossage, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Jim Rice, Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, John Wetteland


I'd have to say Hershiser for sure..

As for Concepcion, I still can't see how they could put Ryne Sandberg in over him. If they continue to water down the Hall by putting in basically "good players of their era" instead of great ones, I'd say put Andre Dawson in.

MrCinatit
01-02-2006, 07:48 PM
there is a difference between who will make it, and who i would like to see there.
i'd like to see Blylevn, Concepcion, Dawson, Goose, T.J., Sutter and Smith make it - show some of the old relievers some love.

cincinnati chili
01-02-2006, 07:51 PM
If it were up to me, nobody on that list would ever get in, with the possible exceptions of Blyleven, Rice, Gossage and Sutton.

Col_ IN Reds fan
01-02-2006, 07:59 PM
No one on the list should get in this year.

chicoruiz
01-02-2006, 08:15 PM
Weird... not too many years ago I would have cheerfully bet my house that Doc Gooden and Will Clark would coast into the Hall...You never can tell, fellow citizens, you never can tell...

GAC
01-02-2006, 08:16 PM
Any more, it seems like the HOF committee is hunting for inductees, or that they are under some sort of obligation to yearly vote someone in. If it ain't there, it ain't there. ;)

Cyclone792
01-02-2006, 08:28 PM
Who I think will make it ... Sutter.

Who I believe should make it ... Blyleven, Gossage, Clark, Trammell ... and I've been on the fence, but I'll go with Murphy too.

Joseph
01-02-2006, 08:39 PM
It ain't there :)

Heath
01-02-2006, 10:15 PM
George Grande's gotta do SOMETHING that weekend of HOF Induction. If not, George is going to tell jokes or sing & dance. I'd rather induct someone, thank you.

westofyou
01-02-2006, 11:11 PM
Bert Blyleven deserves the nod.


BATTERS FACED BFP N_W W N_L L RSAA
1 Phil Niekro 22611 337 318 255 274 324
2 Nolan Ryan 22575 336 324 280 292 205
3 Steve Carlton 21683 327 329 246 244 282
4 Don Sutton 21631 310 324 270 256 137
5 Gaylord Perry 20586 318 298 227 247 313
6 Bert Blyleven 20491 313 287 224 250 344
7 Tom Seaver 19369 312 311 204 205 404
8 Tommy John 19189 278 286 228 220 171
9 Ferguson Jenkins 18400 291 284 219 226 271
10 Frank Tanana 17641 252 240 224 236 100

COMPLETE GAMES CG N_W W N_L L RSAA
1 Gaylord Perry 297 318 298 227 247 313
2 Ferguson Jenkins 267 291 284 219 226 271
3 Steve Carlton 254 327 329 246 244 282
4 Phil Niekro 245 337 318 255 274 324
5 Bert Blyleven 242 313 287 224 250 344
6 Tom Seaver 231 312 311 204 205 404
7 Nolan Ryan 222 336 324 280 292 205
8 Jim Palmer 211 251 268 169 152 314
9 Bob Gibson 195 187 180 110 117 252
10 Catfish Hunter 181 204 224 186 166 56

GAMES STARTED GS N_W W N_L L RSAA
1 Nolan Ryan 773 336 324 280 292 205
2 Don Sutton 756 310 324 270 256 137
3 Phil Niekro 716 337 318 255 274 324
4 Steve Carlton 709 327 329 246 244 282
5 Bert Blyleven 685 313 287 224 250 344
6 Tommy John 683 278 286 228 220 171
7 Gaylord Perry 660 318 298 227 247 313
8 Tom Seaver 647 312 311 204 205 404
9 Frank Tanana 616 252 240 224 236 100
10 Ferguson Jenkins 594 291 284 219 226 271

ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE N_W W N_L L RSAA
1 Jim Palmer 0.86 2.86 3.72 251 268 169 152 314
2 Tom Seaver 0.79 2.86 3.66 312 311 204 205 404
3 Gaylord Perry 0.55 3.09 3.64 318 298 227 247 313
4 Nolan Ryan 0.53 3.19 3.72 336 324 280 292 205
5 Bert Blyleven 0.50 3.31 3.81 313 287 224 250 344
6 Dennis Eckersley 0.47 3.46 3.93 198 188 143 153 204
7 Don Sutton 0.45 3.26 3.71 310 324 270 256 137
8 Tommy John 0.43 3.34 3.76 278 286 228 220 171
9 Vida Blue 0.42 3.26 3.68 201 209 169 161 89
10 Steve Carlton 0.41 3.22 3.63 327 329 246 244 282

STRIKEOUTS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE N_W W N_L L RSAA
1 Nolan Ryan 4.24 9.55 5.31 336 324 280 292 205
2 Steve Carlton 1.69 7.13 5.44 327 329 246 244 282
3 Mickey Lolich 1.53 7.00 5.46 192 194 175 173 52
4 Bert Blyleven 1.46 6.70 5.24 313 287 224 250 344
5 Dennis Eckersley 1.46 6.55 5.10 198 188 143 153 204
6 Tom Seaver 1.44 6.85 5.41 312 311 204 205 404
7 Ferguson Jenkins 1.08 6.38 5.31 291 284 219 226 271
8 Luis Tiant 0.96 6.19 5.24 219 219 168 168 159
9 Frank Tanana 0.78 5.96 5.17 252 240 224 236 100
10 Vida Blue 0.74 5.85 5.12 201 209 169 161 89

STRIKEOUTS/WALKS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE N_W W N_L L RSAA
1 Dennis Eckersley 1.63 3.18 1.55 198 188 143 153 204
2 Ferguson Jenkins 1.53 3.20 1.67 291 284 219 226 271
3 Bert Blyleven 1.20 2.80 1.60 313 287 224 250 344
4 Don Sutton 0.98 2.66 1.68 310 324 270 256 137
5 Tom Seaver 0.95 2.62 1.67 312 311 204 205 404
6 Mickey Lolich 0.93 2.59 1.66 192 194 175 173 52
7 Gaylord Perry 0.88 2.56 1.68 318 298 227 247 313
8 Jim Kaat 0.69 2.35 1.66 221 228 185 178 115
9 Frank Tanana 0.63 2.21 1.58 252 240 224 236 100
10 Luis Tiant 0.58 2.19 1.61 219 219 168 168 159

RedsBaron
01-03-2006, 06:28 AM
The guys I'm sold on as Hall of Famers: Blyleven, Gossage, Trammell.
The guys I'm on the fence with as far as the HOF: Sutter, Dawson, Rice, Parker, Clark, Murphy, Morris, Concepcion, Mattingly, John.
The guy who has the numbers that I just can't see as Hall of Famer, at least not yet: Belle.
The guys I can't ever see as Hall of Famers: Everyone else on the above list.

MrCinatit
01-03-2006, 07:37 AM
gosh...no love shown for Jaime Navarro? :p:

registerthis
01-03-2006, 11:45 AM
From the moment I first laid eyes on Juan Guzman, I thought "That man has 'hall of fame' written all over him."

Cyclone792
01-03-2006, 12:58 PM
George Grande's gotta do SOMETHING that weekend of HOF Induction. If not, George is going to tell jokes or sing & dance. I'd rather induct someone, thank you.

Don't worry, this is the year they elect about two dozen Negro Leaguers so there will be players getting in regardless of what the BBWAA decides. George Grande should very well be in Cooperstown, and we should get ourselves a weekend of not-so-terrible Reds TV broadcasts.

M2
01-03-2006, 01:03 PM
Bruce Sutter and Jim Rice probably have the best shots.

Though Blyleven and Trammell should be and the BBWAA deserves to be eliminated from the voting due to oversights like these. It's full-on ridiculous those two guys aren't already enshrined.

StillFunkyB
01-03-2006, 06:11 PM
It's sad that Doc Gooden probably won't get in.

1985 is one of the greatest single season performances by a pitcher ever.

Heath
01-03-2006, 07:25 PM
It's sad that Doc Gooden probably won't get in.

1985 is one of the greatest single season performances by a pitcher ever.

Too Bad for Doc he had years 1987-1995.

RedsBaron
01-06-2006, 04:15 PM
I previously posted that I was on the fence with regard to Jim Rice. By chance, I happened to look at Rice's career stats on BaseballReference.com.
I found that the most comparable hitter to Rice was Orlando Cepeda, who is in the HOF.
Now I don't believe that just because one guy made the HOF that it necessarily follows that very other player with similar stats should also be in the HOF, and I also realize that Rice and Cepeda played different positions. Cepeda's stats may also be a bit better than those of Rice when you consider that Cepeda's prime years included the mid-1960s, a pitcher friendly era.
Still.....consider these stats:
Hits: Rice 2452, Cepeda 2351
Runs: Rice 1249, Cepeda 1131
HRs: Rice 382, Cepeda 379
RBI: Rice 1451, Cepeda 1365
Ave.: Rice .298, Cepeda .297
OBP: Rice .352, Cepeda .350
SLG: Rice .502, Cepeda .499
All star selections: Rice 8, Cepeda 7
MVP awards: Rice 1, Cepeda 1
HR titles: Rice 3, Cepeda 1
RBI titles: Rice 2, Cepeda 2
HOF Monitor Score: Rice 146.5, Cepeda 113.5
If Cepeda belongs in the HOF, it would seem that Rice does as well, at least based on these numbers.

Cyclone792
01-10-2006, 01:37 PM
Only about 25 minutes to go ...

Jpup
01-10-2006, 01:50 PM
Wetteland made the list twice. He must have a good chance. ;)

Cyclone792
01-10-2006, 02:05 PM
Looks like Sutter's in ... and he's the only one. He didn't deserve it, but not the first ... oh well ... what I'm wondering is how Sutter makes it and Gossage doesn't, because that doesn't make much sense to me.

Jpup
01-10-2006, 02:13 PM
Looks like Sutter's in ... and he's the only one. He didn't deserve it, but not the first ... oh well ... what I'm wondering is how Sutter makes it and Gossage doesn't, because that doesn't make much sense to me.

I found it interesting that Sutter is the only pitcher without a career start to make the Hall of Fame.

NJReds
01-10-2006, 02:20 PM
Here's the vote tally. 390 votes to get in/25 votes to stay on.

Who the heck voted for Walt Weiss and Greg Jeffries...shouldn't voters take this a little more seriously?

(Edit: Sorry for the list, the code tags don't seem to straighten it out.)


Player Votes %
Bruce Sutter 400 76.9%
Jim Rice 337 64.8%
Rich Gossage 336 64.6%
Andre Dawson 317 61.0%
Bert Blyleven 277 53.3%
Lee Smith 234 45.0%
Jack Morris 214 41.2%
Tommy John 154 29.6%
Steve Garvey 135 26.0%
Alan Trammell 92 17.7%
Dave Parker 75 14.4%
Dave Concepcion 65 12.5%
Don Mattingly 64 12.3%
Orel Hershiser 58 11.2%
Dale Murphy 56 10.8%
Albert Belle 40 7.7%
Will Clark 23 4.4%
Dwight Gooden 17 3.3%
Willie McGee 12 2.3%
Ozzie Guillen 5 1.0%
Hal Morris 5 1.0%
Gary Gaetti 4 0.8%
John Wetteland 4 0.8%
Rick Aguilera 3 0.6%
Gregg Jefferies 2 0.4%
Doug Jones 2 0.4%
Walt Weiss 1 0.2%
Gary DiSarcina 0 0.0%
Alex Fernandez 0 0.0%

princeton
01-10-2006, 03:05 PM
to paraphrase Whitey: after Sutter came along, baseball was just different.

He's a great choice.

westofyou
01-10-2006, 03:13 PM
to paraphrase Whitey: after Sutter came along, baseball was just different.

He's a great choice.
Whitey will be his inducter is my bet.

You're boy made it... puff out your chest, don't be so shy.

flyer85
01-10-2006, 03:14 PM
to paraphrase Whitey: after Sutter came along, baseball was just different.

He's a great choice.I think collective memory remembers a Bruce Sutter that is much better than he really was. He had a grand total of 2 dominating season(77 and 79, 3 if you want to count 1984) and was just a good one for six others. Not HOF material in either quality of longevity.

M2
01-10-2006, 03:21 PM
to paraphrase Whitey: after Sutter came along, baseball was just different.

He's a great choice.

Nah, baseball was different after Sparky Anderson. Sutter was just early onto the bandwagon.

princeton
01-10-2006, 03:32 PM
I think collective memory remembers a Bruce Sutter that is much better than he really was. He had a grand total of 2 dominating season(77 and 79, 3 if you want to count 1984) and was just a good one for six others. Not HOF material in either quality of longevity.

yep, there is a beancounter argument.

he was also SCARY.

flyer85
01-10-2006, 03:44 PM
yep, there is a beancounter argument.

he was also SCARY.The problem is that if qualifies then you can't make an argument to keep out Smith, Franco, Wagner, Hoffman, Rivera, Reardon, etc.

Gossage become a no-brainer as he is much more qualified than Sutter.

What does it say for a player like Albert Belle who was a excellent player for a 8 years(same as Sutter)?

princeton
01-10-2006, 04:08 PM
The problem is that if qualifies then you can't make an argument to keep out Smith, Franco, Wagner, Hoffman, Rivera, Reardon, etc

you can easily make the argument that it's not a Hall of Numbers

most within the next group weren't scary, and none transformed the game.

Rivera's in.

M2
01-10-2006, 04:16 PM
you can easily make the argument that it's not a Hall of Numbers

most within the next group weren't scary, and none transformed the game.

Rivera's in.

To me, Rivera underlines the difference the difference between scary and Bruce Sutter. It didn't help that Sutter had his best seasons with the Cubs in the late '70s, a team that scared no one, but Rivera's a force of nature in a way Sutter never was. IMO Wagner's a lot scarier than Sutter and Hoffman's about equal.

westofyou
01-10-2006, 04:20 PM
It didn't help that Sutter had his best seasons with the Cubs in the late '70s, a team that scared no one,
Dave Kingman playing outfield for the Cubs scared me.

flyer85
01-10-2006, 04:32 PM
he was also SCARY.Gossage was scary. So was Rob Dibble. Those guys that could throw 98-99 mph and were not afraid to come under your chin, that's scary. I can honestly say getting dusted by one of those guys would have left me in need of a uniform change.

cincinnati chili
01-12-2006, 07:17 AM
Scary doesn't always mean valuable. Nolan Ryan was very scary (and is a very deserving HOF'er) but his teammate Tom Seaver was less scary and appreciably better.

Steve Dalkowski was one of the scariest pitchers ever. If you had a team of Steve Dalkowskis, the opponents' hitters would probably play the entire game with craps in their pants, but would still win.

This is why one should consider numbers much more than oral history when determining Hall of Fame candidates.

RedsBaron
01-12-2006, 09:12 AM
If you ignore "numbers" and just go by "fame," then Phil Rizzuto is more deserving of the HOF than is Barry Larkin, Dwight Gooden is more deserving than is Phil Niekro, and Jose Canseco is more deserving than is Tony Gywnn.

princeton
01-12-2006, 09:54 AM
Scary doesn't always mean valuable. Nolan Ryan was very scary (and is a very deserving HOF'er) but his teammate Tom Seaver was less scary and appreciably better.

you're forgetting that being appreciably better makes him MORE scary

we've all faced the HUGE guy that could kill the ball but that WILL make outs. We WANT to face that guy with the game on. So that's the opposite of scary.

Ravenlord
01-12-2006, 10:00 AM
didn't i read somewhere that Sutter invented the splitfinger as we know it now? if that be the case, that's more than likely what got him in.

RFS62
01-12-2006, 10:03 AM
The forkball has been around for a long time. But it wasn't thrown with the arm speed and torque that the splitter has.

The splitter has damaged a lot of arms since it became popular. It's missed a lot of bats too.

princeton
01-12-2006, 10:13 AM
exactly. After Sutter, baseball was just different

didn't someone smart already say that?

RFS62
01-12-2006, 10:23 AM
exactly. After Sutter, baseball was just different

didn't someone smart already say that?



Possibly, but I don't remember saying it though. :p:

The pitch that changed baseball forever was the slider, IMO.

The splitter definitely changed things, but if I had to pick one thing about pitching that changed the landscape more than any other pitch, it would be the slider.

And it's for the same reason as the splitter. A ball that looks like a fastball and has late breaking downward movement.

The splitty has a more devestating effect, and goes straight down, the slider more diagonal in movement. But the splitter hurts arms more and when you fall out of form with it, it can be a career ender.

M2
01-12-2006, 11:34 AM
Possibly, but I don't remember saying it though. :p:

The pitch that changed baseball forever was the slider, IMO.

The splitter definitely changed things, but if I had to pick one thing about pitching that changed the landscape more than any other pitch, it would be the slider.

And it's for the same reason as the splitter. A ball that looks like a fastball and has late breaking downward movement.

The splitty has a more devestating effect, and goes straight down, the slider more diagonal in movement. But the splitter hurts arms more and when you fall out of form with it, it can be a career ender.

Agreed. Plus, not that many guys ever threw the splitter. When you get down to it, there's only three guys who've been able to throw it consistently without it tearing apart their arms (and Sutter was not one of those guys). Mind you, they're three pretty great pitchers, but the split is one of three plus-plus pitches with each of them.

IMO, the splitter had minimal impact on the game. It made a few flash-in-the-pan relievers and didn't change the way the game is played (like the slider).

The short reliever had already been invented before Sutter and he was just one of the guys around whom the concept cemented itself. There was an argument at the time, one which I still agree with, that Sutter's usage pattern (only coming in to protect a late lead) was the function of his personal limitations. Sutter couldn't log innings like Gossage or Fingers or Marshall. The guy wore out, so Herman Franks had to cherry pick the spots where he used him.

FWIW, I don't have a problem with Sutter making the HOF. I'm just of the opinion that Sutter's inclusion means Gossage and Lee Smith should get in too. Frankly, given a choice between Sutter and Dan Quisenberry, I'd take Dan Quisenberry, though that's going to be a matter for historians to investigate in 50 years.

PuffyPig
01-12-2006, 11:38 AM
exactly. After Sutter, baseball was just different


You could make a similiar case for Dave Concepcion.

He's the one who invented the SS play on astro turf, where you go into the hole and throw the ball to 1st on the bounce.

I think that Concepcion gets screwed because his offensive stats, which were superior for a SS during his era, are now dwarfed by the Ripkin's and the Rodriquez's.

I always considered Concepcion a marginal, but ligitamite, HOF candidate, more or less on par with Tony Perez.The voters certainly don't share my opinion.