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View Full Version : Aaron Harang is in the books for one year at $2.35 million



DJF33
01-17-2006, 02:33 PM
Per Lancaster blog.

TOBTTReds
01-17-2006, 02:35 PM
I like that. If we was willing to go that low for next year, how low could we do to keep him for more? How many more years of arb. does he have left? 2?

pedro
01-17-2006, 02:36 PM
That seems fairly reasonable.

Unassisted
01-17-2006, 02:38 PM
Heck of a bargain if he proves to be the ace this year.

BTW, you're quick DJF33! Marc posted that 11 minutes before you did.

Redsland
01-17-2006, 02:41 PM
I like that. If we was willing to go that low for next year, how low could we do to keep him for more? How many more years of arb. does he have left? 2?
Yes, two more years of arb. You get a total of three.

There are restrictions about whom you can compare yourself to in terms of service time during your first arb hearing, so the fact that this was Aaron's first arb year helped suppress his salary. Obviously, if he put his '05 numbers up as a free agent-to-be, he'd have gotten a much bigger deal.

DJF33
01-17-2006, 02:44 PM
Heck of a bargain if he proves to be the ace this year.

BTW, you're quick DJF33! Marc posted that 11 minutes before you did.


I was just tired of that little message at the top of the page telling me to post something!:laugh:

I am just now shifting from football to baseball mode. It has been a little tough this year with such a bleak outlook on the 2006 season. Maybe some more good news will get me fully turned around so I can regularly contribute!

M2
01-17-2006, 02:57 PM
That's slightly higher than I had him pegged. I figured $2M. Felipe should come in around the same number.

So far the Reds have had six arb-eligibles sign and have given out just over $6M in raises. Obviously Dunn and FeLo still have to settle, but the club will come in well under the $15M in wiggle it had from punting Graves, Ortiz, Jiminez, Randa and Weber.

Unassisted
01-17-2006, 03:23 PM
So far the Reds have had six arb-eligibles sign and have given out just over $6M in raises.I'd like to think that this is where the Casey money went and I think it's a better investment. :thumbup:

captainmorgan07
01-17-2006, 03:23 PM
bargain price hoepfully we can alock him up long term one of these years

RedFanAlways1966
01-17-2006, 03:23 PM
Any REDS starter with a sub-4.00 ERA (Aaron = 3.83) should be given the GABP, Paul Bown Stadium and the Freedom Center Museum. And throw in the Westin Hotel and the Main Street district as well.

M2
01-17-2006, 03:37 PM
I'd like to think that this is where the Casey money went and I think it's a better investment. :thumbup:

So the rest is just a grauitous payroll slash?

Hey, I was all for trading Casey, just not in return for Dave Williams.

flyer85
01-17-2006, 03:41 PM
So the rest is just a grauitous payroll slash?

Hey, I was all for trading Casey, just not in return for Dave Williams.the only thing the trade of Casey did is open up 1B for Dunn which long term is going to be his best position, as he is never going to be anything but below average in the OF.

traderumor
01-17-2006, 03:50 PM
If these signings of our most talented youngsters don't show folks what a waste of time and money it is to turn to the FA market for costly underperforming vets, nothing will.

I've said this before but I think it bears repeating, with the current system, a team that can keep bringing through young talent to replace old talent getting ready to not be able to even come close to matching salary demands with production (see the Oakland model yet again, as I swallow a bit more of that tasty crow, pass the salt, please) is the one that can either win with a modest payroll or make a mint by keeping payroll costs down while yet winning.

A shrewd owner would quit paying millions to the Eric Miltons, Jeff Weavers, Jerrod Freaking Washburns, et al and make the top talent evaluating GM and his right and left hand men very comfortable, plus pay for an aces guy to oversee player development, the guy would make a ton of money in MLB. He or she wouldn't have to hold taxpayers hostage, they would have enough cash rolling in that it would be fun writing checks for the ballpark. The first thing I would do if buying a MLB franchise is pay Billy Beane, John Schuerholz, or Walt Jocketty about $5M a year and their buddies could make about $1M apiece (which is cheaper than one crappy veteran FA pitcher) because I know they'd make me at least tenfold of that by just being better than everybody else at the game.

M2
01-17-2006, 04:23 PM
If these signings of our most talented youngsters don't show folks what a waste of time and money it is to turn to the FA market for costly underperforming vets, nothing will.

I've said this before but I think it bears repeating, with the current system, a team that can keep bringing through young talent to replace old talent getting ready to not be able to even come close to matching salary demands with production (see the Oakland model yet again, as I swallow a bit more of that tasty crow, pass the salt, please) is the one that can either win with a modest payroll or make a mint by keeping payroll costs down while yet winning.

A shrewd owner would quit paying millions to the Eric Miltons, Jeff Weavers, Jerrod Freaking Washburns, et al and make the top talent evaluating GM and his right and left hand men very comfortable, plus pay for an aces guy to oversee player development, the guy would make a ton of money in MLB. He or she wouldn't have to hold taxpayers hostage, they would have enough cash rolling in that it would be fun writing checks for the ballpark. The first thing I would do if buying a MLB franchise is pay Billy Beane, John Schuerholz, or Walt Jocketty about $5M a year and their buddies could make about $1M apiece (which is cheaper than one crappy veteran FA pitcher) because I know they'd make me at least tenfold of that by just being better than everybody else at the game.

Good point about building around quality leadership. That's a corporate concept that often seems lacking in professional sports.

But I've been turning over the idea of Jeff Weaver in my mind of late and I'm starting to think that he might be worth a one-year flyer. No way I'd want him for more than that, but the Reds have some spending room in the budget (or at least they should) and Weaver's probably looking to prove himself on a one-year deal at the moment. You probably could whip-saw him on price because he'll cost you a second rounder (though hopefully pick up something better than that at the trade deadline or next winter).

Weaver's got his downside and it's significant, but whoever gets him on a one-year deal gets him at what should be his most focused and in his prime. You might be able to steal a year with the guy, kind of like what Cleveland did with Millwood. The Reds can offer lots of offensive support and if he falls flat he's off the books soon enough.

Not that this idea thrills me, just that it's not as unappealing as a lot of other options facing the club at the moment. Who knows, maybe bringing in Weaver would get Dunn, Harang and Felipe talking LTC.

PuffyPig
01-17-2006, 04:29 PM
The first thing I would do if buying a MLB franchise is pay Billy Beane, John Schuerholz, or Walt Jocketty ...

While I agree that Jocketty is a good GM, he certainly hasn't gotten there through the farm route.

Look at the Cards roster. Only Pujols, Molina are original Cards from the starting 8, and only Thompson from the expected pitching staff. The Cards ability to spend a pretty hefty payroll (wisely) is their claim to fame, not a remarkable farm system.

IslandRed
01-17-2006, 04:33 PM
Traderumor, you've said something I've always thought. Why is it clubs will give $8 million a year to an average pitcher and then act like it's a burden to pay a tenth of that for a guy who runs the entire baseball operation and has a far bigger impact than (almost) any individual player?

On second thought, I know why, and it goes back to points people have made before... just like players, most GMs and managers are thoroughly replaceable. No sense paying $2 million when you can land any of ten guys just like him for half of that. The idea, of course, is to find someone who isn't Just Another Guy, and money works pretty well for that sort of thing.

ochre
01-17-2006, 04:43 PM
While I agree that Jocketty is a good GM, he certainly hasn't gotten there through the farm route.

Look at the Cards roster. Only Pujols, Molina are original Cards from the starting 8, and only Thompson from the expected pitching staff. The Cards ability to spend a pretty hefty payroll (wisely) is their claim to fame, not a remarkable farm system.
that's only half the picture. Their farm has provided them the leverage to acquire many of the players that are on their roster. It doesn't have to be about who they currently have that came up with them.

M2
01-17-2006, 04:44 PM
While I agree that Jocketty is a good GM, he certainly hasn't gotten there through the farm route.

Look at the Cards roster. Only Pujols, Molina are original Cards from the starting 8, and only Thompson from the expected pitching staff. The Cards ability to spend a pretty hefty payroll (wisely) is their claim to fame, not a remarkable farm system.

Though they have leveraged that farm system to make remarkable trades.

Unassisted
01-17-2006, 04:52 PM
So the rest is just a grauitous payroll slash?

Hey, I was all for trading Casey, just not in return for Dave Williams.I never looked at that trade as being just for Dave Williams. The savings was key, because it turns out now that the deal was for Dave Williams and these arb signings.

traderumor
01-17-2006, 04:52 PM
The interesting thing about the three names that I threw out there is that they all go about their craft as artisans. All three have developed their own method to the madness, but most of it is artistry. They have a unique gift. So I'd take any of them, give them the reigns, and enjoy sipping sodas and watching good baseball in the expensive seats every night.

Falls City Beer
01-17-2006, 04:55 PM
Who knows, maybe bringing in Weaver would get Dunn, Harang and Felipe talking LTC.

I don't think this point can be overstated. This is an excellent point--one that undergirds my yen for acquiring a guy like Contreras for one year at the cost of Kearns, Pena, whomever. Moves are never ultimately made in isolation, and it's crucial to keep selling the team (both to the fans and the players) as you rebuild it.

traderumor
01-17-2006, 05:01 PM
Good point about building around quality leadership. That's a corporate concept that often seems lacking in professional sports.

But I've been turning over the idea of Jeff Weaver in my mind of late and I'm starting to think that he might be worth a one-year flyer. No way I'd want him for more than that, but the Reds have some spending room in the budget (or at least they should) and Weaver's probably looking to prove himself on a one-year deal at the moment. You probably could whip-saw him on price because he'll cost you a second rounder (though hopefully pick up something better than that at the trade deadline or next winter).

Weaver's got his downside and it's significant, but whoever gets him on a one-year deal gets him at what should be his most focused and in his prime. You might be able to steal a year with the guy, kind of like what Cleveland did with Millwood. The Reds can offer lots of offensive support and if he falls flat he's off the books soon enough.

Not that this idea thrills me, just that it's not as unappealing as a lot of other options facing the club at the moment. Who knows, maybe bringing in Weaver would get Dunn, Harang and Felipe talking LTC.
Nothing wrong with filling holes with free agents, but only if the VORP justifies it. The thing that those dipping into the free agent market in the current climate don't seem to all realize quite yet is that these are no longer guys simply trying to cash in a huge contract but actually may pay for themselves (true stars) like in the early days of free agency. These are primarily guys who have priced themselves out of their current employers because the current employers realize the player is a negative return on investment at the asking price. The guys who are worth Free Agent money are locked up with their current teams and never make it to Free Agency (Pujols, Oswalt come to mind off the top of my head). A good example of this is Weaver and Washburn. These are guys coming from two deep pocketed teams, but they were sent packing. There are what, maybe half a dozen decent free agent buys these days, and that may be a high number.

M2
01-17-2006, 05:30 PM
I never looked at that trade as being just for Dave Williams. The savings was key, because it turns out now that the deal was for Dave Williams and these arb signings.

Except they already had plenty of money for the arb signings without making that deal. They've still got close to $10M of the pre-Casey bubble to spend.

IF the Reds dumped Casey to pay off arb contracts then they did so on top of a payroll slash at a time when league revenues are bursting at the seams. I'm no fan of the current management/ownership, but I give them more credit that that.

ochre
01-17-2006, 05:36 PM
Trading Casey last off season would have been about the money. Absent any kind of trend of behavior that would indicate a cohesive plan, its difficult to determine what was addressed by trading him this year. Presumptively, it would have been to free up firstbase for Dunn, or Griffey.

Unassisted
01-17-2006, 05:37 PM
Except they already had plenty of money for the arb signings without making that deal. They've still got close to $10M of the pre-Casey bubble to spend.I realize it's a shell game. I just choose to view it in this LIFO way. The "bubble," as you put it, can hopefully be earmarked for Dunn, Lopez and more pitching.

TeamBoone
01-17-2006, 07:54 PM
01/17/2006 2:56 PM ET

Harang agrees to terms with Reds
Right-hander avoids arbitration with one-year, $2.35 million deal
By Anthony Castrovince / MLB.com


Aaron Harang's breakthrough 2005 season earned the right-hander quite a hefty raise.

Harang and the Reds avoided arbitration by agreeing to a one-year, $2.35 million contract Tuesday.

That's quite a bump from the $440,000 Harang pulled in last year.

Harang earned the raise by establishing himself as the Reds' most reliable starter in '05. His 11-13 record doesn't tell the whole story, as Harang consistently kept his team in position to win the game and often didn't receive much run support.

Harang's number of victories (11), quality starts (19), innings pitched (211 2/3) and strikeouts (163) were all career highs. He also tied for the team lead with one complete game.

By notching 211 2/3 innings of work, Harang became the first Reds pitcher with 200 innings in a season since right-hander Elmer Dessens led the staff with 205 innings in 2001.

The Reds will sort out their pitching staff in Spring Training, and Harang is expected to be at or near the top of the rotation. This will be the 27-year-old's fourth season with Cincinnati. He was obtained in the midseason trade in 2003 that sent Jose Guillen to the A's.

Two arbitration-eligible players -- shortstop Felipe Lopez and first baseman Adam Dunn -- remain on the Reds' 40-man roster. Tuesday is the deadline for clubs and players to exchange salary figures for the arbitration hearings, which begin Feb. 1.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060117&content_id=1296750&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

KronoRed
01-17-2006, 09:03 PM
but the club will come in well under the $15M in wiggle it had from punting Graves, Ortiz, Jiminez, Randa and Weber.
How much you wanna bet that money just disappears? ;)


Good deal on Harang though

REDREAD
01-18-2006, 10:50 AM
But I've been turning over the idea of Jeff Weaver in my mind of late and I'm starting to think that he might be worth a one-year flyer.

I'd give Weaver two years. We're not going to be competitive anyhow in the next 2 years. Then his deal rolls off with Milton's deal.

The team has enough revenue to absorb Weaver for 2 years. Supposedly they offered 3 to Morris.

Offering Weaver 2 years might give us the edge to sign him, and if he bounces back, you enjoy the reward for 2 years. If he flops, you're really no worse off than not signing him.. Sure, it costs payflex, but it's not like we don't have the money.

M2
01-18-2006, 12:02 PM
I'd give Weaver two years. We're not going to be competitive anyhow in the next 2 years. Then his deal rolls off with Milton's deal.

The team has enough revenue to absorb Weaver for 2 years. Supposedly they offered 3 to Morris.

Offering Weaver 2 years might give us the edge to sign him, and if he bounces back, you enjoy the reward for 2 years. If he flops, you're really no worse off than not signing him.. Sure, it costs payflex, but it's not like we don't have the money.

No way I'd give him two years.

First off, my interest in him hinges on him working relatively cheap. I don't think he's a all that good a pitcher and I certainly don't he's worth anywhere near what he's been asking.

Second, Weaver likely doesn't want a two-year deal. He's in the same place Kevin Millwood was last year where he's got to find a club that's committed to giving him a regular shot in the rotation for something in the $6M -$7M range. He might have to accept less than Millwood because there's draft pick compensation attached to him. If he pitches well, then there'll be money waiting on the other side.

I'd have no interest in him without the monetary incentive to pitch for his next contract attached to his 2006 season. As it is I think there's a decent chance he'd lay an egg with the Reds, but for short money and the facade that you went out and signed a veteran pitcher I'd be willing to take the chance that he might put a good season together.

And if he did put that season together, I'd let him walk because I wouldn't be looking for lightning to strike twice. IMO, it would be a grandiose mistake to fall in love with Jeff Weaver or to throw a lot of money at him. My interest in him is extremely narrow.

westofyou
01-18-2006, 12:03 PM
My interest in him is extremely narrow.

Jeff Weaver is the backup Prom date the Reds are looking for at this moment, no strings attached after the dance.

M2
01-18-2006, 12:10 PM
Jeff Weaver is the backup Prom date the Reds are looking for at this moment, no strings attached after the dance.

Bingo. Hopefully, he shows up looking real hot and boozy, making everyone else jealous.

Puffy
01-18-2006, 12:13 PM
01/17/2006 2:56 PM ET

He also tied for the team lead with one complete game.



This struck me as funny. I don't know why, but it did. In a sad, hurtful funny kind of way.

Redsland
01-18-2006, 12:44 PM
So then I tied for second on the team in complete games?

:)

westofyou
01-18-2006, 12:50 PM
The Recent run of lack of CG is a baseball wide problem.

But the Reds haven't topped 5 since 2000


COMPLETE GAMES YEAR CG
T1 Reds 2005 2
T1 Reds 2002 2
T1 Reds 2001 2
4 Reds 2003 4
T5 Reds 2004 5

KronoRed
01-18-2006, 12:53 PM
So then I tied for second on the team in complete games?

:)
Nice work Resland :beerme:

westofyou
01-19-2006, 12:23 AM
Bingo. Hopefully, he shows up looking real hot and boozy, making everyone else jealous.
Sheehan thinks the same.

He’s not in any danger of ending up in Cooperstown, but the best remaining free agent by far is right-hander Jeff Weaver. Unable to reach an agreement with the Dodgers last month, Weaver hit the market at a time when league-average starters are getting three-year deals, or better, simply on the hope that they’ll be healthy and effective. Consider the five starting pitchers who have signed the biggest contracts this offseason, listed here with their 2003-05 records:

Age W-L ERA IP BB SO HR SNLVAR WARP
A.J. Burnett 28 12-12 3.61 352.0 135 332 23 8.2 9.1
Kevin Millwood 32 32-29 3.83 555.0 171 440 53 12.8 13.1
Jarrod Washburn 31 29-31 4.08 534.0 145 298 73 13.0 14.5
Matt Morris 31 40-28 4.22 567.0 132 368 77 10.5 9.9
Esteban Loaiza 34 43-26 4.02 626.1 182 497 67 14.9 18.9
Jeff Weaver 29 34-33 4.61 603.1 157 403 70 10.4 12.1
Weaver has the worst single-season performance in this crowd, his awful ’03 for the Yankees, and that drives up his overall ERA. Looking at everything else, though, you can see he stands firmly in the middle of the crowd in Support-Neutral and WARP terms, in peripherals, and he’s been second only to Loaiza in durability. (This chart, by the way, reinforces the notion that Loaiza’s contract is a bargain.) If you’d looked at these six pitchers just one year ago, you might well have concluded that Weaver was the best of the bunch, as he led the six in SNLVAR in 2004.

Weaver should get the kind of money that’s been doled out to Jarrod Washburn and Matt Morris, because he’s been just as good a pitcher. If a team can bring him into the fold for less, and especially if they can limit their commitment to two years, they will have picked up a significant edge on the teams that have paid mid-rotation starters like aces all winter long. Look for Weaver to be the 2006 version of Millwood or Loaiza, the late signing, the forgotten one, who has a significant impact on the season and makes big money next winter.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4713

M2
01-19-2006, 01:02 AM
I should note that even though I'd try to snag Weaver for a season, he scares the hell out of me - .867 OPS against LHBs last year and moving from Dodger Stadium to the GAB likely wouldn't help that.