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View Full Version : Could this not be DanO's fault???



TOBTTReds
01-21-2006, 02:57 AM
Pretend DanO knows baseball. Pretend he wants to do all the right things. Then, right when it is all about to happen, someone else shuts it down.

John Allen has essentially been the GM of this team for years. DanO could have possibly never had full control of the baseball operations and he never would have had a chance. Maybe this is why it doesn't matter who our GM is while Allen has control.

Kffl.com

Reds | Allen's Role Redefined
Fri, 20 Jan 2006 21:29:17 -0800

New Cincinnati Reds owner Bob Castellini has decided to keep chief operating officer John Allen, but he will focus exclusively on the business side of the ballclub, according to the Associated Press. Under previous owner Carl Lindner, Allen ran the entire operation, including the baseball side of the ballclub, and reported directly to the owner.

This makes me ill thinking that he had this much control. Maybe this year will be DanO's real chance to do something. He had a good draft last year (from what we can tell from now) and hopefully will be solid again this year.

Opinions? And let them make sense, don't tell me about DanO's binders or any crap like that. Make this a serious baseball discussion.

KronoRed
01-21-2006, 04:21 AM
I seriously doubt Dan O was ordered to flush 25 mill away on Milton, or bring back Aurilia instead off getting a draft pick, or trading for Womack when we have no need for him.

If anything, Allen may have stopped Dan O from making even worse deals.

buckeyenut
01-21-2006, 06:28 AM
I think this is a separate topic so I will keep it here rather than in a different thread.

We don't know WHAT influence Allen might have had. Obviously, he was in a position to have a tremendous amount. I am willing to give OBrien this year and evaluate him on what he does with Allen no longer around. But the moves had better improve dramatically and had better be more frequent if that is the case.

Everyone deserves a chance. Maybe not a long one, but at least a chance. I can see why Castenelli wouldn't throw him under the bus just yet. Remember, this is OBrien's first GM job. He has been learning on the job too.

princeton
01-21-2006, 06:50 AM
Extend DanO!

I'll get a lot more work done

GADawg
01-21-2006, 07:12 AM
sadly baseball seems to be ALL business nowadays so maybe one of you can explain to me exactly what part of the organization is broken out as strictly the business side. Although DanO will be reporting directly to the top I still don't see how personel decisions could be implemented without Allen's stamp of approval.

37red
01-21-2006, 07:48 AM
It does seem to be all business these days but this is a new group taking over and they might have more gumption to make the Reds a competitive club again. Lindner has been in the money side of things for a long long time and IMO, I don't think he was very excited about the game. It will take more than one season to turn things around and especially getting things in order this late in the off season.

If DanO has a real grip on getting the right people in the right places and he didn't have that control before it will also be the next off season before he can make real changes. This being the case I suspect we're going with primarily the team roster we see now. If the Reds make it to the All Star game with a chance to take the division we may see what the new ownership is about.

StillFunkyB
01-21-2006, 08:35 AM
I honestly think it's a HUGE thing that DanO wasn't at the presser yesterday.

HUGE.

To me, that gives me hope. Why would the general manager of the team not be at the press conference to announce new ownership?

I hope it is because he was at home, packing.

Krusty
01-21-2006, 08:36 AM
Dano will get this year to show he finallly has turned the baseball operations around. If not, then that advisor role that new ownership offered Lou Piniella might just turn into a GM job.

If ownership was happy with O'Brien, then why is one of the Williams' sons, Joe, moving in the GM office?

Jpup
01-21-2006, 08:50 AM
Dano will get this year to show he finallly has turned the baseball operations around. If not, then that advisor role that new ownership offered Lou Piniella might just turn into a GM job.

If ownership was happy with O'Brien, then why is one of the Williams' sons, Joe, moving in the GM office?

DanO's as good as gone, he's had his chances for the last 2 years. If Cast and Co. was going to keep him in town, he would have been there yesterday.

KronoRed
01-21-2006, 08:55 AM
Extend DanO!

I'll get a lot more work done
Dan O for productivity

Has a nice ring to it ;)

cincinnati chili
01-21-2006, 09:26 AM
I honestly think it's a HUGE thing that DanO wasn't at the presser yesterday.

HUGE.

To me, that gives me hope. Why would the general manager of the team not be at the press conference to announce new ownership?

I hope it is because he was at home, packing.


It may be because Castellini knew that there would be direct questions about the reorganization and frank discussion about the state of the club. So, in a show of class, he asked DanO and Allen to stay away.

Here in Boston, John Henry did a similar thing last November, asking Larry Lucchino to stay away, when he held a press conference about the Theo situation.

But getting back to the beginning of the thread.

1. I agree with others above who say that it's unlikely Allen "ordered" the Eric Milton signing and some of the other most costly moves.

2. DanO assumed the risk of this happening when he took the job. Even if he really, really, really wanted a GM job, it was well established that Allen and/or Lindner had a penchant for meddling. The Pete Rose questions in the interview should have been a dead giveaway, Dan. There are probably reasons why other interviewees (Mike Port, IIRC) said publicly that "it wasn't a good fit" on the very next day.

paulrichjr
01-21-2006, 10:56 AM
1. I agree with others above who say that it's unlikely Allen "ordered" the Eric Milton signing and some of the other most costly moves.


I have believed that Allen was the problem for many years even more than the ownership. Maybe Allen didn't order him to sign Milton but he might have ordered him to make a big splash in the free agency market with pitiching...and did so after most of the other big names were already signed. We know that Milton wasn't DanOs first choice from the articles on Casey getting everyone that DanO wanted except one pitcher. I'm not a fan of DanO but I dislike Allen more than JimBo, Carl, and Marge rolled into one.

RFS62
01-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Allen was given a job he wasn't qualified to do. No way on earth he should oversee the baseball side. He's a bean counter, not a baseball man.

Lindner made the mistake of letting Allen have that much power over things he was unqualified to supervise.

westofyou
01-21-2006, 11:19 AM
Here's how you kill a sports organization.

1. Sell it to an owner who wants to use it to further their own life and other business's that are in no way connected to baseball. Then let said owner be President of the team.

2. Continue relationship for over one decade.

3. Once in state of confusion hand keys over to a conservative accountant with no baseball side experience and install him as president.

4. Continue for a 5 years

5. Sell team to a man who made his fortune when most TV's were Philco's.

6. Retain conservative accountant as link between field and owner

7. Not awaken aforementioned owner

8. Continue for 5 years.

9. Allow conservative accountant to spearhead move into new facility, said move eventually pushes the baseball side of the business beneath the moneyside in accountants mind. From that moment on accountant will let non baseball side of business trump all baseball sides of the business.

10. Hiring a GM because he's a Bizzaro version of Jim Bowden. We know the Reds wanted stability after Bowden, but the mismanagment of that transaction was worthy of the Italian goverment.


Most fine organizations have VP's or Presidents that layer between the GM and the owners, for instance the Reds had Howsam as a VP, but he was a great businessman and baseball man.

If Dan O reports to the owner it seems to me that the owner will go and first find the new conduit. Whether it's a president/VP who will get a GM or a GM that will fill both roles who knows?

But the Reds can't have just handed Dan O the keys to every room based on his work history in Cincinnati. That would be madness.

Falls City Beer
01-21-2006, 11:24 AM
I'm a big believer that removing Allen makes no difference in wins and losses for the Reds.

Baseball minds--they are the lightning bolts to rend the murk that encloses this club.

westofyou
01-21-2006, 11:26 AM
I'm a big believer that removing Allen makes no difference in wins and losses for the Reds.

Baseball minds--they are the lightning bolts to rend the murk that encloses this club.
Every action causes a reaction.

Falls City Beer
01-21-2006, 11:40 AM
Every action causes a reaction.

Yep. A GM that consistently brings in talent, under budget, will either make a bean counter like Allen powerless in the eyes of the owner to check said GM , or make someone like Allen altogether obsolete. The GM wags everything but the owner, and owners are smart enough not to mess with a GM who puts a winner on the field, and therefore asses in the seats--all that and under budget.

RFS62
01-21-2006, 11:45 AM
If Castellini was paying attention in his years in St. Louis, he got to watch Jocketty and LaRussa operate.

How long do you think he'll put up with DanO and Narron?

Falls City Beer
01-21-2006, 11:47 AM
How long do you think he'll put up with DanO and Narron?

I suppose as long as it takes him to realize that he should have had someone lined up for their jobs the day he took over.

Az Red
01-21-2006, 11:54 AM
Two thoughts:

1. Allen was not baseball smart enough to tell Dan "NO" on Milton. He's an accountant...

2. The Reds now have an owner who is known throughout baseball. He's not a banana salesman, but a baseball owner. The owner now can be involved in baseball discussions and people will listen: free agents, trading partners, his own organization. Those dealing with the Reds will go in with a better perception of who is pulling the organizational strings. That, IMO, is a huge leap forward for this club and whatever Dan brings up as a player transaction will now be filtered through a basball owner.

KronoRed
01-21-2006, 12:09 PM
I have believed that Allen was the problem for many years even more than the ownership. Maybe Allen didn't order him to sign Milton but he might have ordered him to make a big splash in the free agency market with pitiching
I have a hard time seeing Allen as being in favor of spending money ;)

Redsland
01-21-2006, 12:35 PM
RE: the OP;

"The general manager's slot more or less reported to me, and I was more or less the liaison to ownership," Allen said. "I think some people thought I was making baseball decisions, which really was never the case. We had a general manager."
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060121/SPT05/601210373/1035

RFS62
01-21-2006, 12:39 PM
He may have not been making or baseball decisions, but he had a lot to do with getting financial approval of them.

Up to and including making cuts or trades that were financially based decisions.

WVRedsFan
01-21-2006, 01:11 PM
If Castellini was paying attention in his years in St. Louis, he got to watch Jocketty and LaRussa operate.

How long do you think he'll put up with DanO and Narron?

With O'Brien--not very long. Guys with his success in business can judge a guy in a couple of weeks. DanO's long pauses between actions will probably not be tolerated.

With Narron--I'm fearful. He seems to really be impressed with 'ol Jerry. That means it will take a lot longer for him to sour on the manager. That's a shame. I still feel like he has Lou in mind for this position next year. I think the GM and special consultant stuff was a smokescreen.

knuckler
01-21-2006, 01:26 PM
Reading today's article in the Enquirer, I thought it was pretty clear that O'Brien is gone as soon as Castellini can make the arrangements for a smooth transition. Hence the Williams in his office and laying the groundwork with Piniella already. Castellini spoke about how badly he wanted to get control in November when he could still have an impact on this season, which I read to mean "when I could still get a GM in place before the winter meetings".

chicoruiz
01-21-2006, 01:59 PM
I don't like "symbolic" or "just to prove to fans that a new day is dawning" firings. I think the message has been sent pretty clearly to Allen, Narron, and most especially O'B: "You have a very finite time period to prove yourself, so now's the time to ratchet it up a notch". I can live with that.

pedro
01-21-2006, 02:25 PM
Well the Reds problems run a lot deeper than just what has happened over the last 2 years so no, it's not all DanO fault. Nonetheless, he has, in my eyes, proven to be horribly incompentent and I hold no hope that he is the man to lead the Reds out of their current predicament.

TeamCasey
01-21-2006, 02:47 PM
http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/07/28/allen.jpg

Puppetmaster!

Marc_Lancaster
01-21-2006, 02:50 PM
I honestly think it's a HUGE thing that DanO wasn't at the presser yesterday.

HUGE.

To me, that gives me hope. Why would the general manager of the team not be at the press conference to announce new ownership?

I hope it is because he was at home, packing.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea Dan and John weren't there yesterday. They most definitely were -- along with Dean Taylor, Brad Kullman, Johnny Almaraz, Tim Naehring, Grant Griesser...basically everyone in baseball operations.

They just weren't up at the podium with the new ownership, and I don't know why they would have been. It was Castellini's day.

(OK, back to the cave)

pedro
01-21-2006, 02:56 PM
I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea Dan and John weren't there yesterday. They most definitely were -- along with Dean Taylor, Brad Kullman, Johnny Almaraz, Tim Naehring, Grant Griesser...basically everyone in baseball operations.

They just weren't up at the podium with the new ownership, and I don't know why they would have been. It was Castellini's day.

(OK, back to the cave)

well I'll hold out hope that the fact that he didn't say anything positive about Dan O is a signal in and of itself, whether DanO was there or not.

Falls City Beer
01-21-2006, 02:56 PM
I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea Dan and John weren't there yesterday. They most definitely were -- along with Dean Taylor, Brad Kullman, Johnny Almaraz, Tim Naehring, Grant Griesser...basically everyone in baseball operations.

They just weren't up at the podium with the new ownership, and I don't know why they would have been. It was Castellini's day.

(OK, back to the cave)

I expected as much, but didn't say anything because I hadn't actually seen the conference.

Falls City Beer
01-21-2006, 02:58 PM
well I'll hold out hope that the fact that he didn't say anything positive about Dan O is a signal in and of itself, whether DanO was there or not.

DanO won't be fired; he just won't be asked to return. 2006 being a lost season falls on Castellini's head, IMO. He'll get no free pass from me.

ochre
01-21-2006, 03:09 PM
http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/07/28/allen.jpg

Puppetmaster!
or,
http://home.att.net/%7Esl.schofield/star_wars/emperor_palpatine.jpg

KronoRed
01-21-2006, 03:10 PM
That makes Dan O vader.



Who's Luke? :D

WVRedsFan
01-21-2006, 04:47 PM
Reading today's article in the Enquirer, I thought it was pretty clear that O'Brien is gone as soon as Castellini can make the arrangements for a smooth transition. Hence the Williams in his office and laying the groundwork with Piniella already. Castellini spoke about how badly he wanted to get control in November when he could still have an impact on this season, which I read to mean "when I could still get a GM in place before the winter meetings".

I thought the same thing. It's obvious that O'Brien is gone. I think he knows it and I'm nearly certain he will resign before the season starts. Let's see how that prediction plays out.

cincinnati chili
01-21-2006, 04:53 PM
That makes Dan O vader.




No. DanO is Salacious Crumb
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Quadrant/6459/pics/crumb.jpg

Redmachine2003
01-21-2006, 07:33 PM
The area DanO did pretty well in is in his two Drafts. I know he got slammed pretty good on this board for his picks this year but his picks have made him look pretty good so far. Maybe the new ownership should leave him in place until after the draft?

Chip R
01-21-2006, 08:26 PM
If ownership was happy with O'Brien, then why is one of the Williams' sons, Joe, moving in the GM office?
Punishment? ;) After all, wouldn't you feel like you were being punished if you had to work with DanO every day and listen to his drivel?

Chip R
01-21-2006, 08:31 PM
The area DanO did pretty well in is in his two Drafts. I know he got slammed pretty good on this board for his picks this year but his picks have made him look pretty good so far. Maybe the new ownership should leave him in place until after the draft?
IIRC, most of the people on here who follow such things thought this year's draft was pretty good. The year before that was a different story.

StillFunkyB
01-21-2006, 10:32 PM
The Reds now have an owner who is known throughout baseball. He's not a banana salesman, but a baseball owner.

Actually, he's a produce salesman.

I guess that's comparing apples to oranges, though. :evil:

StillFunkyB
01-21-2006, 10:34 PM
I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea Dan and John weren't there yesterday. They most definitely were -- along with Dean Taylor, Brad Kullman, Johnny Almaraz, Tim Naehring, Grant Griesser...basically everyone in baseball operations.

They just weren't up at the podium with the new ownership, and I don't know why they would have been. It was Castellini's day.

(OK, back to the cave)

Well, I read it on some post here. I guess I jumped at the idea being true since I want DanO gone so bad.

Sorry. :(

Who knows, maybe with the changes, DanO can turn it around. I won't hold my breath, but miracles happen.

Redmachine2003
01-21-2006, 11:13 PM
IIRC, most of the people on here who follow such things thought this year's draft was pretty good. The year before that was a different story.
I went back and read the Draft day Thread and trust me other than Bruce and Ward all the other draft pics people wear scratching their heads or ripping DanO big time. When they picked Wood with the second pick all heck broke loose. People where asking if DanO was trying to get fired. Myself I liked both of his drafts. The only problem I had with them was they where so young and the minors where so dried up that it would take a few more years to see the results.

KronoRed
01-22-2006, 12:38 AM
No. DanO is Salacious Crumb
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Quadrant/6459/pics/crumb.jpg
That guy had a name??

Learns something new everyday :lol:

GAC
01-22-2006, 05:55 AM
If all this is true, then I guess we'll now see just how good (or bad) of a GM DanO really is - if Allen was making, or very influential, in all the decisions. ;)

princeton
01-23-2006, 09:53 AM
I guess we'll now see just how good (or bad) of a GM DanO really is

OK, only give him 4 more years so we can be really sure

Johnny Footstool
01-23-2006, 10:27 AM
That guy had a name??

Yes, and an action figure, too.