PDA

View Full Version : Red Sox acquire Crisp



Spitball
01-22-2006, 07:02 PM
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=122417

Sox reach deal for CF Crisp
By Tony Massarotti
Boston Herald Baseball Columnist and General Sports Columnist

Sunday, January 22, 2006 - Updated: 11:46 AM EST


With the return of Theo Epstein all but formalized, the Red Sox now appear on the verge of concluding a heretofore tumultuous offseason by acquiring both center fielder Coco Crisp and shortstop Alex Gonzalez.

And not a moment too soon.

According to baseball sources, the Red Sox and Cleveland Indians have agreed in principle on a deal that will bring outfielder Crisp to the Sox in a multi-player trade. The deal was agreed upon several days ago under the condition that Cleveland be able to acquire another outfielder to replace Crisp, presumably Jason Michaels from the Philadelphia Phillies.



There was some indication that the Phillies and Indians were hoping to complete the deal for Michaels as soon as last night. Cleveland was believed to be sending one of two relievers - left-hander Arthur Rhodes or right-hander Rafael Betancourt - to the Phillies in exchange for Michaels.

In the event of a breakdown in talks between the Phillies and Indians, Cleveland was believed to have serious interest in free agent outfielder Jeff DaVanon as a replacement for Crisp.

The Red Sox will send a package including reliever Guillermo Mota and prospect Andy Marte to the Indians. The inclusion of Mota in the deal explains why the Sox signed free agent reliever Julian Tavarez to a two-year contract despite having a bullpen that already included Keith Foulke, Mike Timlin, Mota, Rudy Seanez and, perhaps, Jonathan Papelbon.

Marte was acquired by the Sox earlier this offseason in the deal that sent Edgar Renteria to the Atlanta Braves. At the time, one Sox official described Marte as a “bargaining chip,” an asset the club now has to implement given the departure of center fielder Johnny Damon.

Beyond the acquisition of Crisp, the Sox also are about to sign free agent Gonzalez. The 28-year-old former Florida Marlins shortstop, is a free-swinging, career .264 hitter with little power, but he is regarded as a very good defensive player. He will likely bat ninth in a revamped Sox lineup that should feature much-improved infield defense. [continue]

deltachi8
01-22-2006, 07:47 PM
Ok, who was it that called for this move? During all the Tejada talk, someone here said the Sox should acquire Crisp...scary.

cincinnati chili
01-22-2006, 08:09 PM
Ok, who was it that called for this move? During all the Tejada talk, someone here said the Sox should acquire Crisp...scary.

Actually, the rumors of the Sox acquiring Crisp or Jeremy Reed were in the Boston media, even before Damon was officially lost to the Yankees.

The people here are often prescient, but this rumor was out there.

johngalt
01-22-2006, 09:51 PM
On the surface, that seems like an awful lot to give up for Crisp.

M2
01-22-2006, 10:05 PM
Got to love Cleveland's young offense. However, that's some shaky pitching. The aughts Tribe is starting to look a lot like the Tribe of the '90s.

At least they're true to their DNA.

For selfish reasons I'm glad Crisp is coming to Boston. He's fun to watch.

IslandRed
01-22-2006, 10:26 PM
On the surface, that seems like an awful lot to give up for Crisp.

It is, but I also thought the Red Sox made out like bandits by getting Marte for Renteria. Renteria and Crisp are good players but not the type of guys you ought to be getting in return for the top prospect in baseball, as Marte was considered last winter. So the obvious explanation is that Marte's stock has slipped.

Krusty
01-22-2006, 10:28 PM
Or maybe the Sox was desperate for a centerfielder?

LoganBuck
01-22-2006, 10:49 PM
Somehow I don't think Theo uses priceline.com

KronoRed
01-23-2006, 01:53 AM
Or maybe the Sox was desperate for a centerfielder?
They got a good one.

Good deal for both teams.

Bill
01-23-2006, 02:01 AM
Crisp is a very productive CF but much more replaceable as a LF. It really makes the Tribe thin in the OF but Shapiro knows replacing corner OFs is easier than getting a potential star at 3B where they have few prospects.

As for pitching, Shapiro is big on Sowers and Carmona whom both he considers untouchable in trade talk. I don't see Carmona as more than a 4-5 but Sowers should solidify the rotation sooner than later.

In any event, a good deal for both teams with an eye for the future for Cleveland (a necessity with their limited payroll).

Caveat Emperor
01-23-2006, 02:13 AM
Got to love Cleveland's young offense. However, that's some shaky pitching. The aughts Tribe is starting to look a lot like the Tribe of the '90s.

Fortunately, they've got some decent pitching at various levels of their minor leagues -- they should be well poised to mix some younger arms into their staff over the next two years, which should do wonders for the long-term viability of the major league roster.

Sowers has great stuff, and could be up in the majors by midseason if he continues on his torrid pace. They've also got a kid name Fausto Carmona in AAA who hasn't posted great numbers yet, but is only 22 and is supposedly a great control guy that figures out to a solid #3 or #4.

Indians pitching should be fine...they've shown they're in this for the long haul and that's a view that should serve them very well.

Bill
01-23-2006, 03:29 AM
Found this among the news reports from google. Interesting, but typical:

It is believed the Sox and Indians came close to a three-team trade involving the Cincinnati Reds that would have landed Crisp and pitcher David Riske in Boston, only to have matters fall apart due to Reds’ reluctance.

The Indians instead will get Michaels, who was sentenced to 100 hours of community service on Friday to settle charges that he assaulted a Philadelphia police officer outside of a nightclub on July 3. He agreed to a $1.5 million, one-year contract with the Phillies last week after batting .304 with four homers in 2005

M2
01-23-2006, 04:01 AM
Fortunately, they've got some decent pitching at various levels of their minor leagues -- they should be well poised to mix some younger arms into their staff over the next two years, which should do wonders for the long-term viability of the major league roster.

Sowers has great stuff, and could be up in the majors by midseason if he continues on his torrid pace. They've also got a kid name Fausto Carmona in AAA who hasn't posted great numbers yet, but is only 22 and is supposedly a great control guy that figures out to a solid #3 or #4.

Indians pitching should be fine...they've shown they're in this for the long haul and that's a view that should serve them very well.

I'm extremely low on Carmona. My guess is Shapiro's hoping to flip him for someone more established. The Indians rode a number of older pitchers to success in 2005. In many cases, it might have been a last gasp (plus a big chunk of them have gone onto other organizations). Lee, Sabathia and Westbrook will need to improve across the board for the team to be as good in 2006. The bullpen's also a big question mark.

Caveat Emperor
01-23-2006, 04:15 AM
I'm extremely low on Carmona. My guess is Shapiro's hoping to flip him for someone more established.

Like I said, his numbers aren't great and his strikeout ratios in particular would probably scare me off ever giving anything worthwhile up for him, but he's also got a big frame (6'4 - 220) and is a pretty young guy (22) that has probably been pushed a little too fast through the minor leagues. There's definately some room for development.

He's strictly back of the rotation material, but as pitching starved as most clubs are right now, the Indians should be able to get good value out of him if Shapiro decides to go that route. If they decide to keep him, I think there might be some value there as well.

He would be quite servicable for acquiring some good bullpen arms, if nothing else.

cincinnati chili
01-23-2006, 08:33 AM
It is believed the Sox and Indians came close to a three-team trade involving the Cincinnati Reds that would have landed Crisp and pitcher David Riske in Boston, only to have matters fall apart due to Redsí reluctance.



Interesting. It now looks like the Red Sox will get Riske and Josh Bard, and will additionally give up catcher Kelly Shoppach.


The Red Sox, according to a source with knowledge of the deal, have reached agreement in principle with the Indians on a complex six-player deal centered upon 26-year-old Coco Crisp that also will bring to town a quality setup man in 28-year-old David Riske and young catcher Josh Bard.

Boston will ship top prospect Andy Marte, reliever Guillermo Mota, and catcher Kelly Shoppach to Cleveland. The deal is contingent upon physicals. The only player in the deal with a known and recent injury issue is Mota, who missed a month last season with the Marlins because of inflammation in his throwing elbow...

Because of the need to exchange and carefully process medical records, the deal is unlikely to be announced any sooner than the middle or end of this week.


Source: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/23/source_sox_agree_to_crisp_deal/

REDJAKE
01-23-2006, 10:46 AM
I don't think this is a done deal yet and the post did fool me if that was the intention it worked but i am sure some posters get a little ticked when the post is misleading i know i do lets wait til all the t's are crossed and the i's are dotted before the post.GO CINCY!!!!

Bill
01-23-2006, 03:34 PM
This bit is from rotoworld and suggests the Reds' deal involved Mota. Glad they passed if that was it. Would rather have Riske at 1.8 mill than Mota and his questionable health:

FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal believes the Indians will trade Coco Crisp to Boston for Andy Marte and Guillermo Mota and then send Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies for Jason Michaels.
No mention of David Riske or the catcher swap here. The Boston Herald also suggests that Riske is no longer part of the deal, because a three-team trade with the Reds fell through. It's the first we've heard of the Reds' involvement, but it would make sense for them to want Mota as a closer candidate. If Rosenthal's version of the way events will unfold is correct, then this is an unbelievable win for the Indians.

Aronchis
01-23-2006, 04:02 PM
Looks like Cast may have shot down a soaring O'brien lol!!!

KronoRed
01-23-2006, 11:06 PM
Looks like Cast may have shot down a soaring O'brien lol!!!
a soaring O'brien

That's hillrious :laugh:

Big Donkey
01-24-2006, 07:34 PM
Latest report I have on this situation is the deal is on hold as Guillermo Mota has apparently failed his physical. CLE may be interested in adding a younger reliever from the Sox if BOS still wants David Riske on their end as part of it, because CLE is quite keen on getting Andy Marte (and understandably so), and don't want the deal to fall through (and subsequent Arthur Rhodes-Jason Michaels deal with PHI).

cincinnati chili
01-24-2006, 11:05 PM
Latest report I have on this situation is the deal is on hold as Guillermo Mota has apparently failed his physical. CLE may be interested in adding a younger reliever from the Sox if BOS still wants David Riske on their end as part of it, because CLE is quite keen on getting Andy Marte (and understandably so), and don't want the deal to fall through (and subsequent Arthur Rhodes-Jason Michaels deal with PHI).

BD,
Do you or your sources have any reason to believe that the "failure" in the physical was some type of retribution for the Red Sox (read: Lucchino) jerking around with the "in principle" deal?

Big Donkey
01-25-2006, 01:35 AM
BD,
Do you or your sources have any reason to believe that the "failure" in the physical was some type of retribution for the Red Sox (read: Lucchino) jerking around with the "in principle" deal?

Yeah, that'd be a real interesting angle... I see what you're getting at, Chili, but to be honest, I couldn't tell you. I know Mota's agent (I think Katz) hit the affiliate in either Cleveland or Philadelphia (covering because of the Jason Michaels involvement to CLE) and was full-throttle in deny mode about Mota's physical, saying the doctor never said it was a failure. CLE could just not be approving it themselves, but this Crisp deal is on hold for now, subsequently putting the Michaels-Rhodes deal with CLE and PHI on hold. The really interesting thing is this will intensify Kearns rumors with BOTH CLE and BOS now, because both are openly interested in them, with Westbrook and Clement as reported offers, respectively.

Buckeye33
01-25-2006, 05:25 AM
Just read this on rotoworld.....

According to the Boston Herald, the Reds are interested in getting back into the Coco Crisp deal, making a nine-player swap a possibility.
We're still not sure of the details here, but as reported earlier, Matt Clement would likely go to Cincinnati and Austin Kearns would be sent to Cleveland. We assume Andy Marte would still go Cleveland. Also, the agreed-upon Jason Michaels-for-Arthur Rhodes swap would probably be killed off. Jan. 25 - 3:28 am et

9 player swaps are or could be fun. Anything on this Donkey?

GAC
01-25-2006, 09:10 AM
This ought to get people further riles at Dano. ;)

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0125reds.html?UrAuth=%60N%60NUOaNYUbTTUWUXUWUZT

O'Brien reportedly balked at Clement deal

By Hal McCoy

Dayton Daily News

CINCINNATI | If some believe former Reds general manager Dan O'Brien misbehaved when he traded Sean Casey to Pittsburgh in December for pitcher Dave Williams, O'Brien said the trade was made in concert with Chief Operating Officer John Allen and then-owner Carl Lindner.

Some believe that concert was way off-tune. Did new owner Bob Castellini sign off on the deal? His purchase of the Reds was announced in November, a month before the Casey trade, but he wasn't approved as an owner by Major League Baseball until last week.

"At the time I was dealing with Allen and Lindner, but it is my assumption that Bob Castellini was kept abreast of it, although I don't know that for sure," O'Brien said Tuesday.

Maybe, though, the last event that sealed O'Brien's firing Monday was a deal he didn't make as late as last week.

The Reds, Boston Red Sox and Cleveland Indians were in a three-way discussion, working on a proposal that would have brought pitcher Matt Clement to the Reds from the Red Sox. The Reds would have sent outfielder Austin Kearns to Cleveland and the Tribe would have sent outfielder Coco Crisp, catcher Josh Bard and pitcher David Riske to the Red Sox.

At the last moment, Boston front office people say, the Reds backed out.

Ironically, Clement nearly came to Cincinnati as a free agent from the Chicago Cubs two years ago for a three-year $22.4 million deal. He chose the Red Sox. That $22.4 million then was used by O'Brien to sign pitcher Eric Milton, another deal that put him in hot water.

Nevertheless, O'Brien said he can describe in two words his reaction Monday morning when Castellini fired him: "deep disappointment."

O'Brien feels he wasn't given enough time for his groundwork to bring fruition, especially his work at rebuilding the farm system.

"Winning right away was not a realistic goal," he said. "But the Reds have good minor-league scouting in place and a Latin American presence that should lead to success. We did quality work that will stand the test of time. We'll have players we drafted in the past two years moving from Class A to Class AA and many will be ready for the majors in a couple of years.

"We were not given the time to carry our plan to a championship and that's too bad," he said. "I would have liked to have been a part of it."

Meanwhile, Castellini is busy getting permission from other teams to talk with potential GM candidates.

One source with a highly successful baseball background said Castellini should hire Florida vice president of player personnel Dan Jennings.

"He isn't the GM, but he runs the show in Florida," said the source, who is not associated with the Marlins but still is in baseball.

"He is a beginning Terry Ryan (Minnesota GM) and Pat Gillick (Philadelphia GM)," the source said. "He is a baseball-builder, everything the Reds are looking for. He is ready to be a GM, he has been sitting on ready for a long time."

Jennings began his career as an associate scout with the Reds and learned under legendary Reds scouts Julian Mock and George Zuraw. Before landing in Florida, Jennings was Director of Player Personnel for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, "And he is responsible for all those great young kids the Devil Rays have," the source said.

"Dan will change everything around to the way it was when the Reds were great under Bob Howsam — he is Bob Howsam-oriented. It would be a pity if the Reds overlooked him. If they hire him, Bob Castellini will be the happiest man in the world because he'll love him, the fans will love him and the players will love him."

Jennings was not interviewed before the Reds hired O'Brien.

Jennings and Tampa Bay manager Lou Piniella are close friends and worked well together with the Devil Rays. Hiring Jennings would be a large inducement for Piniella to return to the Reds, perhaps as manager, in 2007.

M2
01-25-2006, 10:10 AM
Just read this on rotoworld.....

According to the Boston Herald, the Reds are interested in getting back into the Coco Crisp deal, making a nine-player swap a possibility.
We're still not sure of the details here, but as reported earlier, Matt Clement would likely go to Cincinnati and Austin Kearns would be sent to Cleveland. We assume Andy Marte would still go Cleveland. Also, the agreed-upon Jason Michaels-for-Arthur Rhodes swap would probably be killed off. Jan. 25 - 3:28 am et

9 player swaps are or could be fun. Anything on this Donkey?

If Kullman pulls that off he officially gets my vote for the GM's job.

RFS62
01-25-2006, 10:16 AM
New players in the GM chairs of Boston and Cincy, with Theo reinstated. Maybe they'll get it done.

traderumor
01-25-2006, 10:39 AM
One source with a highly successful baseball background said Castellini should hire Florida vice president of player personnel Dan Jennings.

"He isn't the GM, but he runs the show in Florida," said the source, who is not associated with the Marlins but still is in baseball.

"He is a beginning Terry Ryan (Minnesota GM) and Pat Gillick (Philadelphia GM)," the source said. "He is a baseball-builder, everything the Reds are looking for. He is ready to be a GM, he has been sitting on ready for a long time."One source? Jack McKeon?

KronoRed
01-25-2006, 10:40 AM
Nah Jack would want the job himself

Reds Fanatic
01-25-2006, 01:37 PM
I got this from ESPN. Apparently O' Brien killed off the trade that would have sent Kearns to Boston and Clement to the Reds last week as part of the Crisp deal. With O' Brien gone they may attempt this to get an agreement on this trade again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2305550


So it's also possible that, with the firing of Reds GM Dan O'Brien, the Indians and Red Sox will attempt to revive their much-discussed three-way trade with Cincinnati that would have sent Kearns to Cleveland, Crisp to Boston and Matt Clement to Cincinnati. It was O'Brien who killed the most recent version of that one last week.

membengal
01-25-2006, 04:42 PM
I got this from ESPN. Apparently O' Brien killed off the trade that would have sent Kearns to Boston and Clement to the Reds last week as part of the Crisp deal. With O' Brien gone they may attempt this to get an agreement on this trade again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2305550

Yes please. Revive that.

Puffy, I continue to loathe Dan O'Brien, in every way possible.

Barbarossa
01-25-2006, 05:31 PM
A poster on a Cleveland board said that DanO wanted Sowers for Kearns and when he was told no way he pulled out. Ya never know!

Sabo Fan
01-25-2006, 05:37 PM
A poster on a Cleveland board said that DanO wanted Sowers for Kearns and when he was told no way he pulled out. Ya never know!

If that's true, then DanO must be bi-polar. You want Jeremy Sowers for Austin Kearns but then you shell out $9 million a year for Eric Milton and bring back Rich Aurilia? The man should be institutionalized.

cincinnati chili
01-25-2006, 10:14 PM
Pardon me for being risk-averse.

Clement is pretty easily going to make $20 million over the next two years in salary and performance bonuses. If we're going to fork over all that money AND Austin Kearns, then I'd like to find out exactly what the hell happened to him in the second half of last year. I'm not sure it was all the "ball in the face" anymore.

StillFunkyB
01-25-2006, 11:42 PM
I'm not sure I really like Clement for Kearns. Maybe it's just me being a homer, and I overvalue Kearns.

I really think AK can turn things around. Personally, I would rather see that then Matt Clement.

We'll see...

Krusty
01-26-2006, 01:35 AM
I'm not sure I really like Clement for Kearns. Maybe it's just me being a homer, and I overvalue Kearns.

I really think AK can turn things around. Personally, I would rather see that then Matt Clement.

We'll see...

All the hitting in the world don't mean squat if we don't have decent starting pitching.

KronoRed
01-26-2006, 01:45 AM
He has a bad July and a bad September, in August he was... decent.

Sabo Fan
01-26-2006, 03:53 AM
All the hitting in the world don't mean squat if we don't have decent starting pitching.

You're assuming that Matt Clement is decent pitching, but at that price and with those mysterious struggles last season and in years prior, I don't think he is. I'm all for getting pitching, but this is at best a lateral move and at worst a Miltonesque mistake.

pedro
01-26-2006, 01:16 PM
as this trade really hasn't happened can someone change the title?

Bill
01-26-2006, 06:42 PM
Some interesting Reds notes in here.


Updated: Jan. 26, 2006, 4:08 PM ET
Source: Odds of Crisp going to Boston decreasingBy Jayson Stark
ESPN.com


The chances of Coco Crisp landing in Boston seem to be shrinking by the hour.

The Red Sox and Indians continued to talk to each other -- as well as to a potential third club, the Reds -- on Thursday. But there were indications that the Indians were beginning to have second thoughts about dealing Crisp.

An official of one team that spoke with the Indians reported Thursday he got the impression the odds of Cleveland trading Crisp had sunk below 50-50.

Nevertheless, the Indians and Red Sox were still discussing ways they could rework the six-player trade that collapsed Tuesday over concerns about the health of reliever Guillermo Mota.

Multiple sources say Mota didn't technically "fail" his physical with the Indians. But his examination raised enough questions that the Indians have told Boston they will keep Mota only if the Red Sox upgrade the rest of the package, which originally had Mota, third-base prospect Andy Marte and catching prospect Kelly Shoppach heading for Cleveland, with Crisp, reliever David Riske and catcher Josh Bard landing in Boston.

The Red Sox, however, prefer not to trade away one of their top young pitching prospects, Manny Delcarmen, whom Cleveland likes. So it appears Boston has turned its attention back to Cincinnati to see if it can put together a deal for left fielder Austin Kearns. The Red Sox then would turn around and deal Kearns to Cleveland for Crisp, with several other players (yet to be determined) also switching area codes.

Cleveland also is believed to have talked directly with the Reds about Kearns. While interim GM Brad Kuhlman has told a number of teams this week that he has the authority to make a trade, other baseball people who have talked to new Reds owner Bob Castellini say Castellini is reluctant to rush into a major deal just days after taking over the club.

The team that may come out worst in all of this, though, is the Phillies. Had the original trade gone through, they would have wound up trading outfielder Jason Michaels to Cleveland for reliever Arthur Rhodes.

But an official of one team in touch with the Phillies said they were "not real optimistic" about coming away with Rhodes or any other reliever, because they feared their portion of the trade was "disintegrating." That's because if Cleveland holds onto Crisp or winds up dealing for an outfielder like Kearns, it no longer would need Michaels. The Phillies then would probably hang onto Michaels until spring training and shop him for a setup man in the spring.

Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

Puffy
01-26-2006, 06:58 PM
then I'd like to find out exactly what the hell happened to him in the second half of last year. I'm not sure it was all the "ball in the face" anymore.

Well, I know a couple of girls who were never the same after a "ball in the face."


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, get your minds out of the gutter - I mean female softball pitchers - you perverts!

:evil:

Bill
01-27-2006, 04:29 PM
apparently espn is reporting the Rhodes -michaels deal is complete but I still see rumors of the kearns-westbrook deal in addition to the other deals today with the tribe signing Weaver to a one year deal.

flyer85
01-27-2006, 04:32 PM
I wouldn't mind an apple crisp.:thumbup:

Reds Fanatic
01-27-2006, 04:37 PM
Here are the details on that Rhodes - Michaels deal

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2308605


The Philadelphia Phillies and Cleveland Indians reached agreement Friday on a Jason Michaels-for-Arthur Rhodes trade, a deal that could trigger a bigger swap involving the Boston Red Sox.

Rhodes was in Philadelphia taking a physical, two people familiar with the deal told The Associated Press. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the trade had not been finalized.

If the trade is completed, the Indians could turn around and send center fielder Coco Crisp to the Red Sox to fill the gap left when free agent Johnny Damon left for the New York Yankees.

Boston had been trying to send third base prospect Andy Marte and reliever Guillermo Mota to Cleveland.

Trades involving the three teams had a hitch earlier this week when the Indians got an unfavorable medical report on Mota. The righty reliever spent about a month on the disabled list with Florida last season because of elbow inflammation.

Rhodes went 3-1 with a 2.08 ERA in 47 games for the Indians last year. But the left-handed reliever missed most of the final two months for family reasons.

Michaels hit .304 with four homers and 31 RBIs for the Phillies. He platooned in center field with Kenny Lofton.

Michaels recently was put on six months' probation and ordered to complete 100 hours of community service following a fight with a Philadelphia police officer last year.

Crisp was a sparkplug and fan favorite for Cleveland, hitting .300 with 16 home runs, 69 RBIs, and stealing 15 bases.

Mota went 2-2 with a 4.70 ERA and two saves in 56 games last season with the Florida Marlins.

There was a chance Boston catching prospect Kelly Shoppach and Cleveland reliever David Riske, as well as backup catcher Josh Bard could be involved in a larger deal.

Team Clark
01-27-2006, 04:49 PM
We looked to move Lugo to Boston, and actually had a deal in place. However, the dynamics changed when Cleveland got involved with Boston. Oh well. That's how it goes.

M2
01-27-2006, 06:01 PM
We looked to move Lugo to Boston, and actually had a deal in place. However, the dynamics changed when Cleveland got involved with Boston. Oh well. That's how it goes.

???

The Reds don't currently have a player named named Lugo on the roster.

And Cleveland's been dancing around with Boston for weeks now, which means it would have been DanO's lameduck regime working the deal. This sounds like pure BS to me.

Red Leader
01-27-2006, 06:03 PM
???

The Reds don't currently have a player named named Lugo on the roster.

And Cleveland's been dancing around with Boston for weeks now, which means it would have been DanO's lameduck regime working the deal. This sounds like pure BS to me.

IIRC, Team Clark is now a part of the D-Rays organization in some capacity, so he's talking about the D-Rays trying to put something together with the Red Sox.

M2
01-27-2006, 06:13 PM
IIRC, Team Clark is now a part of the D-Rays organization in some capacity, so he's talking about the D-Rays trying to put something together with the Red Sox.

Possibly, still stinks of BS though.

I can believe the teams were talking about the possibility of the Reds helping to broker such a deal, but that it was "in place" is probably nothing more than the fancy of someone who got jilted. Notice that it's a rumor that doesn't mention any players from the Reds or the Red Sox and then you've got to factor in that DanO's personal inertia and the short leash of a pending new ownership were involved as well.

Red Leader
01-27-2006, 06:18 PM
Possibly, still stinks of BS though.

I can believe the teams were talking about the possibility of the Reds helping to broker such a deal, but that it was "in place" is probably nothing more than the fancy of someone who got jilted. Notice that it's a rumor that doesn't mention any players from the Reds or the Red Sox and then you've got to factor in that DanO's personal inertia and the short leash of a pending new ownership were involved as well.

I'll let TC speak for himself here, but I just took it that TC was saying that The Rays were trying to put a deal together with BOS (no CIN involvement) for Lugo, and had a deal in place but then BOS started talking with CLE and the deal fell apart. Why? I don't know. We might find out, though as today's PHI-CLE deal still leaves BOS without a SS and an CF, same as they were before any talks with CLE started.

M2
01-27-2006, 06:23 PM
I'll let TC speak for himself here, but I just took it that TC was saying that The Rays were trying to put a deal together with BOS (no CIN involvement) for Lugo, and had a deal in place but then BOS started talking with CLE and the deal fell apart. Why? I don't know. We might find out, though as today's PHI-CLE deal still leaves BOS without a SS and an CF, same as they were before any talks with CLE started.

Except that wouldn't be a deal that was in place. That would be that some people were talking, but it never amounted to much.

I don't know where TC heard this one, but my initial take is that it's someone who was short on details and big on overstatement.

Red Leader
01-27-2006, 06:29 PM
Except that wouldn't be a deal that was in place. That would be that some people were talking, but it never amounted to much.




True dat. :D

Big Donkey
01-27-2006, 06:29 PM
Looks like the deal is probably back on now. Could be announced tonight. Same principals involved, Crisp, Riske and Bard for Marte, Mota and Shoppach. CLE is comfortable enough with Jason Michaels (and Todd Hollandsworth should Michaels fall a little) that they're looking to complete the deal. Marte is the key factor for them, obviously.

Reds Fanatic
01-27-2006, 06:30 PM
According to Ken Rosenthal of the Sporting News the Red Sox - Indians trade is almost completed. He also mentions the Reds at the end of the article.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5282852


Coco Crisp looks like he's going to the Red Sox, after all.

The Sox and Indians are close to completing their much-discussed, multi-player trade in which the Sox will acquire Crisp to be their new center fielder, FOXSports.com has learned.
The Indians agreed Friday to send left-hander Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies for outfielder Jason Michaels, pending physicals, according to the Associated Press. That trade is necessary for the Indians only if they trade Crisp, who likely will be replaced by a platoon of Michaels and Todd Hollandsworth.


The Red Sox are near completion with a deal that would make the Indians' Coco Crisp their new center fielder. (John Grieshop/MLB Photos / Getty Images)

The exact particulars of the Red Sox-Indians trade are not known, but it is expected that the Indians will receive top third-base prospect Andy Marte and reliever Guillermo Mota.

The original agreement between the teams reportedly had Marte, Mota and catcher Kelly Shoppach going to the Indians for Crisp, reliever David Riske and catcher Josh Bard, pending physicals.

The Indians, troubled by the results of Mota's physical, asked that the deal be reworked, specifically requesting that the Red Sox include right-hander Manny Delcarmen.

The completion of the Crisp trade also is expected to result in the Red Sox's signing of free-agent shortstop Alex Gonzalez. The Sox might have pursued a trade for Devil Rays shortstop Julio Lugo had they failed to acquire Crisp.

In recent days, the Red Sox and Indians revived three-way discussions with the Reds about a deal that would have sent Crisp to the Red Sox, outfielder Austin Kearns to the Indians and Red Sox right-hander Matt Clement to the Reds, but those talks proved fruitless.

The Reds, after giving indications that they would be aggressive in pursuing trades following the firing of general manager Dan O'Brien, are modifying that stance under orders from new owner Bob Castellini, according to a major-league source. Interim general manager Brad Kullman could still trade Kearns and others, but the team isn't as anxious to make a deal.

Bill
01-27-2006, 06:59 PM
New boss, same hesitancy- well I can understand wanting to get my feet under me before doing any significant moves.

Tribe could still be interested in Kearns as a replacement for Blake and Blake in turn being the super sub. Of course that would involve Westbrook and not the preferred Clement. Michaels will replace crisp at the top of the order with his excellent .399 OBP.

Thanks RF for the pasting the article earlier, was in a hurry.

WVRedsFan
01-27-2006, 07:06 PM
New boss, same hesitancy- well I can understand wanting to get my feet under me before doing any significant moves.

Tribe could still be interested in Kearns as a replacement for Blake and Blake in turn being the super sub. Of course that would involve Westbrook and not the preferred Clement. Michaels will replace crisp at the top of the order with his excellent .399 OBP.

Thanks RF for the pasting the article earlier, was in a hurry.

I'm glad they're "hesitant," especially when you want to trade a young player like Kearns for a 31-yr old pitcher with possible problems. You've just opened up the outfield for WMP and if you trade Austin, you move Dunn to the outfield and put Valentin at first???

Wise move, if you ask me.

Team Clark
01-27-2006, 07:46 PM
One source? Jack McKeon?

No. I would put money that the source is the source is the Reds former Traveling Secretary who has worked for the Marlins on and off for the last several years. He scouted for the Marlins up until last year I believe. His name escapes me at the moment but I could look it up.

Team Clark
01-27-2006, 07:48 PM
???

The Reds don't currently have a player named named Lugo on the roster.

And Cleveland's been dancing around with Boston for weeks now, which means it would have been DanO's lameduck regime working the deal. This sounds like pure BS to me.

Sorry. I work for Tampa Bay now. I check Redszone periodically throughout the day if I can and I said "we". Sorry for the confusion.

Team Clark
01-27-2006, 07:50 PM
Except that wouldn't be a deal that was in place. That would be that some people were talking, but it never amounted to much.

I don't know where TC heard this one, but my initial take is that it's someone who was short on details and big on overstatement.

Straight from Gerry Hunsicker. Pretty decent source. If you remember Gerry traded Lugo while in Houston after Lugo was charged with domestic violence.

M2
01-27-2006, 08:25 PM
Straight from Gerry Hunsicker. Pretty decent source. If you remember Gerry traded Lugo while in Houston after Lugo was charged with domestic violence.

Again, short on details and long on coulda woulda shoulda. Sounds like Hunsicker was telling you a fish story.

Team Clark
01-27-2006, 08:27 PM
Again, short on details and long on coulda woulda shoulda. Sounds like Hunsicker was telling you a fish story.

:laugh: Highly doubt that. I think Boston got a better deal. Move on to the next one.

M2
01-27-2006, 08:49 PM
:laugh: Highly doubt that. I think Boston got a better deal. Move on to the next one.

Hunsicker could insist he's the king of Siam too, doesn't mean you're holding anything other than an empty bag here.

Clearly the Red Sox weren't enamored with what the Rays offered. Man, that team specializes in not dealing from surplus to cover need.

Anyway, it's hardly a secret the Rays and Sox talked. That one's months old and general public knowledge. What you've got here is water cooler talk from a guy groping for an excuse as to why someone else beat him to the punch.

Though TC, I do have some DRays questions for you. Which three OFs do they want to keep and are they committed to keeping Upton at SS?

Caseyfan21
01-27-2006, 09:04 PM
Appearently the Crisp/Marte deal is now official.

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_plaindealer/archives/2006_01.html

Team Clark
01-27-2006, 11:11 PM
Hunsicker could insist he's the king of Siam too, doesn't mean you're holding anything other than an empty bag here.

Clearly the Red Sox weren't enamored with what the Rays offered. Man, that team specializes in not dealing from surplus to cover need.

Anyway, it's hardly a secret the Rays and Sox talked. That one's months old and general public knowledge. What you've got here is water cooler talk from a guy groping for an excuse as to why someone else beat him to the punch.

Though TC, I do have some DRays questions for you. Which three OFs do they want to keep and are they committed to keeping Upton at SS?

Certainly Baldelli. Not only is he a skilled player he's one of the few players we have that fans will come out to see. Crawford is a keeper and a very good player. Delmon Young would be my next choice. He'll be better than his brother and for longer. Not to slight Gathright or Gomes. Both of which are young and capable. Joey G gets a lot of trade interest.

I do not know the answer to the Upton question but I do know he's the type of player that can do anything on the field. I was not real impressed with his comments over the off season but he's young and may have been coaxed by his agent. Life goes on.

M2
01-28-2006, 12:23 AM
Me, I'd be trading Crawford and Baldelli. You'd get more for them and Gathright and Gomes, IMO, will be more productive players. And Young and Upton are the guys who'll be the real stars of that franchise.

If the Rays were willing to be as ruthless as Doug Melvin's been in Milwaukee (trading his most valuable players in order to build himself a pitching staff), that franchise could be a real threat.

Heath
01-28-2006, 12:27 AM
Certainly Baldelli. Not only is he a skilled player he's one of the few players we have that fans will come out to see. Crawford is a keeper and a very good player. Delmon Young would be my next choice. He'll be better than his brother and for longer. Not to slight Gathright or Gomes. Both of which are young and capable. Joey G gets a lot of trade interest.

I do not know the answer to the Upton question but I do know he's the type of player that can do anything on the field. I was not real impressed with his comments over the off season but he's young and may have been coaxed by his agent. Life goes on.

That's some serious speed in that town with Crawford & Gaithright.

TC - How's Baldelli progressing?

Matt700wlw
01-28-2006, 12:37 AM
Trades official according to ESPN News

lollipopcurve
01-28-2006, 09:44 AM
I like this trade for Boston.

KronoRed
01-28-2006, 09:56 AM
Coco will suffer not batting against us anymore

paulrichjr
01-29-2006, 11:59 PM
How about a little insider info....(ESPN that is)


http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2309806
From Theo to Coco


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Peter Gammons
Special to ESPN.com



The deal entailed more than 110 phone calls between assistant GMs Chris Antonetti of the Indians and Jed Hoyer of the Red Sox alone, separate from conversations between Mark Shapiro, Theo Epstein, Pat Gillick and Reds GMs Dan O'Brien and Brad Kullman, who had been a part of all this for weeks. Then there were the complex physicals for Guillermo Mota and Arthur Rhodes, and, finally, getting the Commissioner's Office to sign off on the cash Boston is -- and, perhaps, will -- pay Cleveland.

Finally, on Saturday morning, Shapiro called Antonetti.

"Now," said Shapiro, "we begin our 13-day offseason."

It was a hectic week for the Indians, who traded one of their most popular and ascending players to get what they and many others consider a special, future, corner star (third baseman Andy Marte) and enough of an upgrade in Mota and catcher Kelly Shoppach to continue building for the long run and not compromise their 2006 season. But for the Red Sox, this was the end to a week that might spawn another dozen books.

The week began with Epstein's return. Now, from the end of the winter meetings, this was an inevitability, yet it received more coverage than John Kerry winning the Democratic nomination in 2004. Some of the coverage turned into comic theater, where some media members wrote more about themselves and some myopic views than the issues. But John Henry, Tom Werner, Larry Lucchino and Epstein hammered out their organizational constitution -- to clear up some of the self-promoting leaks, agree on a long-term vision and work to value players and stick to those valuations so that they didn't get run up the mainsail in free-agent negotiations. And now it seems as if the Red Sox are more focused and less dysfunctional than before Theo put on the gorilla suit and made his escape from Yawkey Way.

Oh, yes -- Manny Ramirez and David Wells remain, as well.

Within 72 hours, the deal that Hoyer and Ben Cherington -- with Epstein's advice and consent -- had worked on for weeks finally came together.

"It is a great trade for the Red Sox," Shapiro said. "Because of the emergence of Grady Sizemore, Coco [Crisp] is probably worth more to Boston than to us because he can play center field. He is a tremendous person whose career is on the ascent. His enormous energy and the fact that he thrives on the stage may make him an even better player in Boston. We had more play on him this winter than anyone else on our roster, but this was the one trade that made sense."

Considering that New England obsessed about center field for five weeks, it was a relief to get the one player they wanted most all the way back to September.

It was a deal that began in September, with Epstein in charge, and was essentially constructed by Hoyer and Cherington. But allowing Damon to walk and patiently working to get Crisp is what the struggle for the soul of the Red Sox was all about.

This will be a far, far different Red Sox team than in 2005; only 11 players remain from their Opening Day roster. Crisp will be in center instead of Damon; Mike Lowell in place of Bill Mueller at third, Kevin Youkilis and J.T. Snow in place of Kevin Millar and John Olerud at first; Alex Gonzalez likely in place of Edgar Renteria at shortstop; Mark Loretta with Alex Cora and Tony Graffanino at second; Josh Beckett in the rotation; and Rudy Seanez, Julian Tavarez, David Riske and possibly Jonathan Papelbon and Lenny DiNardo to reconstruct what was the worst bullpen in the American League.


There isn't anyone who doesn't understand that how far the 2006 Red Sox go likely depends on the health -- physical and mental -- of Curt Schilling, Beckett, Keith Foulke, Lowell and Ramirez.


But this is a team whose great 2003-2005 run was over. It was an aging, slowing team that in September dropped to fifth in the AL in runs and sixth in OPS after leading in both for five months. If management held the 2004 world champions together, they might have been lapped by the young, talented Tampa Bay Devil Rays in 2007.


Now they have added Beckett, Crisp and Youkilis, all at the age (26) when they should be heading toward their career peaks. For years, Epstein has preached that the Red Sox had to start focusing on players on their way up, before they peak. This offseason has been that beginning.


If one takes the 2006 projections in the Bill James guide, Crisp's OPS will be .790 with 13 homers; Damon's .786 with 12 homers; Loretta's is .769, compared to the combined .729 Boston had at second in 2005, and it was only above .700 because of Graffanino and Cora the last two months. Youkilis' OPS projects to be .837 with 14 homers; Millar's .802 with 13; Lowell's 782 with 16 homers (projected in Florida's park); and Mueller's .786 with 12 homers (projected in Fenway). Even Gonzalez's projected numbers against Renteria aren't so bad -- .691 with 13 homers for Gonzalez vs. .749 with 10 for Renteria. And by the defensive evaluation system used by one AL team, Gonzalez was one of the top three defensive shortstops, along with Pittsburgh's Jack Wilson and Houston's Adam Everett. Even Dustan Mohr had a .907 OPS vs. left-handed pitchers, albeit playing half his games at Coors Lite.


If Lowell comes back to 80 percent of his 2003-2004 numbers, Trot Nixon is in the shape he is rumored to be, and Manny is Manny, then the Red Sox actually could be just as good an offensive team as they were. Because Epstein and Hoyer have been driving forces to put a heavier emphasis on defense, they believe they will be improved at every infield position compared to what they were at the beginning of the 2005 season, with Cora (and, possibly Graffanino) and the acrobatic Snow on the bench.


There is strong sentiment to put Papelbon, who will be 25, in the rotation, but where last year they got only 11 starts from Schilling and had to use 10 starters on the year, Terry Francona now has Schilling, Beckett, Wells, Matt Clement, Tim Wakefield, Bronson Arroyo and Papelbon. As some of the veterans fade, by 2007 they could well have Beckett, Papelbon and 22-year-old Jon Lester in the rotation. By signing the relievers, they give time for their prized young arms like Craig Hansen, Edgar Martinez and Manny Delcarmen to develop, and have DiNardo (expected to be in the pen), Abe Alvarez and Cla Meredith for inventory.


They had to give up two top prospects and two more great arms for Beckett, but they still will have shortstops Dustin Pedroia and Jed Lowrie and outfielders Brandon Moss, David Murphy and Jacoby Ellsbury in Triple-A Pawtucket by midseason.


Like the Red Sox, the Indians had their share of frustration this winter because of the inflationary free-agent market and their $50M payroll. But if Jason Michaels can repeat his .399 on-base percentage for 400-450 at-bats behind Sizemore, the Indians' offense could approach 2005, especially if Marte blossoms in the second half and they keep Travis Hafner healthy.

The Indians wanted Trevor Hoffman and had to bring back Bob Wickman, but if Mota can stay healthy for five months -- and he is coming to Cleveland on Monday to begin an offseason conditioning program -- then with Rafael Betancourt, Matt Miller, Fernando Cabrera and Scott Sauerbeck in front of Wickman, the bullpen should be fine. Mota's physical showed him to be strong and very flexible, and when healthy, he is a strikeout reliever.


The Red Sox and Indians know that the Yankees and White Sox begin spring training as the heavy favorites in their respective divisions. But this was in many ways a transition trade for both teams. The Red Sox needed to start getting ascending players, gradually introduce younger farm system products into the mix and take a step back from the institutional obsession with the Yankees. The Indians have to constantly try to develop long term and compete in the short term until the Ohio economy changes and the fans return in droves to The Jake.


"In some ways, it was a painful trade for both teams because we didn't want to trade Marte and they didn't want to trade Crisp," Hoyer said. "But that's probably what makes it a good trade."

Topcat
01-31-2006, 03:32 AM
I know this is lame but how long is it going to be before Coco has the theme song shimmy shimmy coco puff after a homer in fenway :evil: