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Krusty
01-24-2006, 10:39 AM
It was mentioned in today's papers that the Reds had discussions with the Indians involving Kearns going to Cleveland for RHP Jake Westbrook. According to Brad Kullman, discussions could be revisited especially with the Tribe ready to deal Crisp to the Red Sox for Marte.

So Kearns for Westbrook. Good deal or not?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4422

lollipopcurve
01-24-2006, 10:43 AM
No way. Westbrook is a FA in 07.

KronoRed
01-24-2006, 10:43 AM
Too old, no thanks.

traderumor
01-24-2006, 10:47 AM
I think Westbrook had a career year in '04. Pass for Kearns, unless they want to sweeten the pot with a top arm prospect

flyer85
01-24-2006, 10:59 AM
bad deal

RedsManRick
01-24-2006, 11:03 AM
Westbrook:
- 29 years old
- extreme groundball pitcher (2.69 career gb/fb ratio)
- very low k rate (~5 K/9)
- decent control
- 200+ IP the last two years

I think we could do worse -- but this wouldn't be the kind of deal that would really impact our chances. In other words, I think he'd be a solid FA signee for the #4 spot in a good rotation. I don't think we should trade one of our very limited assets for him. This staff needs to be expanded vertically talent-wise, not horizontally. Adding in another middle/back end guy doesn't really add much value. Package Pena/Kearns with prospects to bring in a guy who is top of the rotation material. We don't need more depth.

Johnny Footstool
01-24-2006, 11:47 AM
The Reds don't need another bat-on-ball pitcher. They need a guy with a live arm and a streak of wildness to throw some variety into the rotation. It would be difficult for opposing hitters to face a pitch-to-contact guy (which means they can swing at anything) to a guy with good stuff but control issues. It would be a lot more difficult for them to get locked into a rhythm over a three-game series.

In theory, anyway...

KronoRed
01-24-2006, 11:49 AM
Only if they take Milton

schroomytunes
01-24-2006, 12:01 PM
agreed. Kearns for westbrook dosn't help us in any great way, he's just another back of the rotation guy, of which we are loaded with. Now on the other hand I would be willing to look at these scenerios:

1)Kearns-Garko and a A level pitcher-Garko plays 1st base and allows Dunn to go back to left.

2)Kearns-Sipp and Betencourt

3)Kearns-CLiff Lee straight up-why not?

Bill
01-24-2006, 12:04 PM
Westbrook is not a bad innings eater but he is very streaky, either shutting down the opposing team or getting lit. He is not what the Reds need now though which is cheap young starters. I'd ask for some of their young starters.

If they get Michaels from Philly as is expected, they may not go for another OF though they prefer Blake as a supersub at this point. The discussed deal reported yesterday was similar, with the Reds getting Mota (for ?, not Westbrook).

Red Leader
01-24-2006, 12:18 PM
The discussed deal reported yesterday was similar, with the Reds getting Mota (for ?, not Westbrook).

I'd have to believe that Freel would be of interest to a team like CLE, and I'd have to believe that after his latest run-in with the law, the F.O.'s need to put a fan friendly team on the field, and the depth we now have in the OF and at 2B, that Freel would be available in exchange for a late inning bullpen guy.

Heath
01-24-2006, 12:19 PM
Here's a thought - why not keep Kearns?

Let's see if he catches lightining in a bottle.

:dunno:

Johnny Footstool
01-24-2006, 12:20 PM
I'd rather trade Kearns to KC for a package including J.P. Howell than for a guy like Westbrook.

TOBTTReds
01-24-2006, 12:21 PM
3)Kearns-CLiff Lee straight up-why not?

Yes, this would be fantastic, ridiculous, and unbelievable. This is a DanO proposition.

Kearns' value is so over estimated on this board. He might have a great year, but the chances of him batting .245 with 2 months of DL time is too likely for us to get much more than Westbrook in return.

KronoRed
01-24-2006, 12:22 PM
THen we should keep him.

Don't trade for junk.

TOBTTReds
01-24-2006, 12:23 PM
I'd have to believe that Freel would be of interest to a team like CLE, and I'd have to believe that after his latest run-in with the law, the F.O.'s need to put a fan friendly team on the field, and the depth we now have in the OF and at 2B, that Freel would be available in exchange for a late inning bullpen guy.

I personally feel fans have forgotten this already. There are obviously some who won't let it go, but I have a feeling with all the FO comotion, Freel walking home drunk is nearly out of memory.

TOBTTReds
01-24-2006, 12:24 PM
THen we should keep him.

Don't trade for junk.

Agreed

Red Leader
01-24-2006, 12:41 PM
I personally feel fans have forgotten this already. There are obviously some who won't let it go, but I have a feeling with all the FO comotion, Freel walking home drunk is nearly out of memory.

I think most fans have forgotten about it, but I'd bet you no one in the organization has forgotten it. I'll tell you though, if I just recently bought a MLB team and one of my players has brought a bad name to the team twice in the past year, I certainly don't label him untouchable.

There are a good number of pieces that need to be added to make this a competitive team, and a lot of them are pitching positions. If I'm only getting #4/5 pitcher types being offered for Kearns / WMP, and I'm getting potential closers offered for a player like Freel, I hold onto Kearns and WMP until their stock goes up and deal Freel.

Bill
01-24-2006, 01:12 PM
RL, yea I too think the deal would have been for Freel, a high OB guy like Michaels to bat in the 2 spot.

oneupper
01-24-2006, 01:17 PM
Yes, this would be fantastic, ridiculous, and unbelievable. This is a DanO proposition.

Kearns' value is so over estimated on this board. He might have a great year, but the chances of him batting .245 with 2 months of DL time is too likely for us to get much more than Westbrook in return.

I agree. Kearns instills fear in no one. Pitchers come right at him (inside).

His R/L splits don't help (they're even, we need someone who KILLS lefties to compensate for Dunn and Griffey).

I, for one, have given up on him and joined the WMP bandwagon (even if it may not be an issue anymore).

Westbrook would help us more than the absense of Kearns would hurt us.

pedro
01-24-2006, 01:18 PM
I'd have to believe that Freel would be of interest to a team like CLE, and I'd have to believe that after his latest run-in with the law, the F.O.'s need to put a fan friendly team on the field, and the depth we now have in the OF and at 2B, that Freel would be available in exchange for a late inning bullpen guy.

What's more fan friendly than a drunk midget with an afro?




Really RL, you'd trade Freel for a reliever? I'm not against trading him, but I'd prefer to package him up with another player to get a SP.

Neo
01-24-2006, 01:25 PM
Only way I would send Kearns for Westbrook is if the Indians do land Shoppach and in turn send him the Reds way.

Red Leader
01-24-2006, 01:36 PM
What's more fan friendly than a drunk midget with an afro?




Really RL, you'd trade Freel for a reliever? I'm not against trading him, but I'd prefer to package him up with another player to get a SP.


I'm not sure I ever heard for sure, but the Reds rumored involvement would have gotten them Mota + a prospect in return for the player they were giving up. Could have been Kearns, but I think it was Freel.

Would I deal Freel for Mota and a prospect? Depends, obviously, on who the prospect is, but if it is someone that I think would improve our team down the road and not some crap that just takes up minor league space, yeah, I'd do it. I'm still not 100% convinced that Mota would make a good closer, but he's pretty good in the setup role, which is another piece the Reds need. You start building a 7th, 8th, 9th of Wagner, Mota, Coffey (or Weathers, or whoever your closer is), you're starting to get somewhere, IMO.

pedro
01-24-2006, 01:38 PM
I see what you're saying RL, but as the Reds aren't very good I prefer to keep Freel as he provides so much physical comedy.

TeamBoone
01-24-2006, 02:52 PM
Kearns' value is so over estimated on this board. He might have a great year, but the chances of him batting .245 with 2 months of DL time is too likely for us to get much more than Westbrook in return.

Kearns was never on the DL in 2005.

TOBTTReds
01-24-2006, 03:40 PM
Kearns was never on the DL in 2005.

Was he healthy? If so, then they definitely won't give us much in return!

I know he was returning from injury. I'm just saying his health and consistancy is a major issue ever since Ray King sat on him

Big Donkey
01-24-2006, 06:36 PM
From what I know, Austin Kearns is almost assuredly being shopped right now, but still not a guarantee that he will be traded. I do think Brad Kullman is going to make a move in the next few weeks, whether it's on a fairly significant scale with Kearns or Wily Mo Pena, or on a smaller scale with Ryan Freel, for instance.

deltachi8
01-24-2006, 06:45 PM
Kearns was never on the DL in 2005.

Na, he was just fat and in AAA.

:-)

Kearns is very over valued on this board. Westbrook is probably about right in terms of value for him.

RedsManRick
01-24-2006, 07:25 PM
We need better pitchers, not more pitchers. I still think Kearns has a Brian Giles like ceiling. This year is really make or break for him. There's no use trading him when his value is low for a pitcher who doesn't really do much to improve the ballclub and has 1 year left before FA.

Worst case scenario, Kearns busts completely and we lose 1 year of a #3 stater. If he busts out, his trade value skyrockets and we have a soild right handed bat in the lineup. Bottom line, We have much more to gain by holding on to him right now than by trading him for Westbrook.

pahster
01-24-2006, 09:09 PM
(they're even, we need someone who KILLS lefties to compensate for Dunn and Griffey).

3 Year splits VS lefties:
Dunn - .220/.339/.462/.801
Griffey - .247/.337/.494/.831

Not too bad, although they clearly don't handle lefties as well as righties.

oneupper
01-24-2006, 09:18 PM
3 Year splits VS lefties:
Dunn - .220/.339/.462/.801
Griffey - .247/.337/.494/.831

Not too bad, although they clearly don't handle lefties as well as righties.

I know its not bad, I wasn't complaining about Dunn and Griff. But if they are going to be the lineup (and we hope they are), you want a lefty-killer to compensate.
This is more pressing now that Casey is gone (Sean could hit lefties well)

Kearns lifetime .791 OPS vs. L 831 vs, R
WMP lifetime .879 OPS vs L, .736 vs. R

Caveat Emperor
01-24-2006, 09:30 PM
Na, he was just fat and in AAA.

:-)


What Austin Kearns did on his summer vacation:

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3033/heavyweights25ew.jpg

KronoRed
01-24-2006, 11:16 PM
Ignore the bat avg (like I do :D ) and those numbers are pretty good vs lefties.

Of course, we should sit them vs lefties, especially if it's a kookie lefty ;)

Big Donkey
01-25-2006, 12:30 AM
Update to Kearns, this thread fits it best: Got word from a couple places earlier this evening (Tuesday) that CIN and BOS were talking a trade with Kearns going for Matt Clement, but this apparently was one of the last (or the very last) things Dan O'Brien did. BOS wanted to do the deal but O'Brien kiboshed it. With the Crisp-to-BOS deal on hold (info in the other thread on that), talk could be revisited here with Kullman. I think a couple of the writers got in contact with BOS people to see the legitimacy of it, so perhaps it shows up in the papers Wednesday morning either in Cincinnati or Boston.

Krusty
01-25-2006, 12:46 AM
On the otherhand, the Phillies said they might do the deal with the Indians involving Michaels and Rhodes even if the Crisp deal falls through.

If I'm the Tribe and Red Sox, I take Mota and Riske out of this trade proposal and make it: Crisp/Laird for Marte/Soppach.

Caseyfan21
01-25-2006, 12:54 AM
FWIW, both of my roommates are die hard Tribe fans, as much of Tribe fans as we are all Reds fans. I told them about the Kearns for Westbrook rumors and they were all completely against it, as much as we are all against it. I guess Kearns and Westbrook are much the same types, under achieving players who might break out with a scenery change. Just remember we are all very much over valuing Kearns and they are overvaluing Westbrook.

Krusty
01-25-2006, 12:58 AM
FWIW, both of my roommates are die hard Tribe fans, as much of Tribe fans as we are all Reds fans. I told them about the Kearns for Westbrook rumors and they were all completely against it, as much as we are all against it. I guess Kearns and Westbrook are much the same types, under achieving players who might break out with a scenery change. Just remember we are all very much over valuing Kearns and they are overvaluing Westbrook.

And that is why I see a deal happening. Honestly, we are getting a sinkerball pitcher. Isn't that the type of pitchers the Reds are looking for? And don't the Tribe need a rightfielder instead of using 3rd baseman Casey Blake in RF?

Red Leader
01-25-2006, 01:00 AM
A Kearns for Clement trade straight up would be hard to pass on. I think Clement is as close to a top of the line pitcher as we could expect in return for Kearns at the moment, especially with Clement moving back to the NL. I'm assuming of course that the Reds would already have budgeted him in, and that an Adam Dunn contract could still be done after this move.

Kc61
01-25-2006, 01:01 AM
Update to Kearns, this thread fits it best: Got word from a couple places earlier this evening (Tuesday) that CIN and BOS were talking a trade with Kearns going for Matt Clement, but this apparently was one of the last (or the very last) things Dan O'Brien did. BOS wanted to do the deal but O'Brien kiboshed it. With the Crisp-to-BOS deal on hold (info in the other thread on that), talk could be revisited here with Kullman. I think a couple of the writers got in contact with BOS people to see the legitimacy of it, so perhaps it shows up in the papers Wednesday morning either in Cincinnati or Boston.

If Boston would throw in some cash, hard to believe Reds won't take Clement for Kearns.

Krusty
01-25-2006, 01:02 AM
If Boston would throw in some cash, hard to believe Reds won't take Clement for Kearns.

But the Red Sox need a centerfielder that can lead off more than Kearns. Which, is why I see the Crisp deal getting reworked and still going through.

Big Donkey
01-25-2006, 01:18 AM
But the Red Sox need a centerfielder that can lead off more than Kearns. Which, is why I see the Crisp deal getting reworked and still going through.

You're right on this, and while BOS is interested in Kearns themselves, they want to sort out the leadoff position as well, which is why I think it's also quite likely a three-team version with CIN, CLE and BOS has been discussed more. In fact, I believe that's what the news making the rounds suggested, a three-team deal was being discussed, before O'Brien's dismissal Monday and it kinda got lost in that. I could see it being Crisp to BOS, Kearns to CLE and Clement to CIN with some variables involved.

Krusty
01-25-2006, 01:21 AM
You're right on this, and while BOS is interested in Kearns themselves, they want to sort out the leadoff position as well, which is why I think it's also quite likely a three-team version with CIN, CLE and BOS has been discussed more. In fact, I believe that's what the news making the rounds suggested, a three-team deal was being discussed, before O'Brien's dismissal Monday and it kinda got lost in that. I could see it being Crisp to BOS, Kearns to CLE and Clement to CIN with some variables involved.

Now that makes sense. I don't see why Mota, Laird, Riske and Soppach would be part of the deal because I don't see where either team makes any improvement over what they have.

If Kearns is dealt, you would think Freel would shift to RF. But if Chris Denorfia has a strong spring, it wouldn't surprise me to see him get alot of playing time in the outfield.

KearnsyEars
01-25-2006, 01:28 AM
man I say give kearns this one last shot this year to get 500 at bats and prove himself. Don't wanna let the gem go just yet

Krusty
01-25-2006, 01:33 AM
man I say give kearns this one last shot this year to get 500 at bats and prove himself. Don't wanna let the gem go just yet

I have said that for the last two years. Time to move on.

kyred14
01-25-2006, 01:36 AM
I would have tough time passing on Clement if I could get him for Kearns.

SirFelixCat
01-25-2006, 02:14 AM
That 3 team deal seems to help all three teams involved. While I like Kearns potential and would be/am excited to watch an everyday lineup of Dunn/Jr/Kearns/WMP, Clement would be the start of something decent known as a ML pitching staff.

I'm tired of "potential" when it relates to Kearns, but at the same time, I fear this is the year he grows up and matures into the player we all know he could be. But Clement for Kearns, right now, where this team is, is a deal that should be done from the Reds POV, imo.

Damn you Ray King...damn you!

Ron Madden
01-25-2006, 03:49 AM
Kearns was never on the DL in 2005.

Kearns is a young man. Young men often live and learn.

Could it be the cluster muck that was the front office is partly to blame?

Sure, Kearns should be held responsible for not being in shape. (I think he was with the demotion).

While being the best defensive OF in the lineup he agreed to try 3rd base. It didn't work. I can see how this screwd up his head.

Sometimes I scratch my head and wonder about how often we read that Clubhouse leadership is so important.

Should not Leadership, Honesty and Pride start from The Top?


Let's hope things get better from here on out.

KronoRed
01-25-2006, 04:01 AM
I have said that for the last two years. Time to move on.
Not for Westbrook, I'd rather ride Kearns out if the best we can do is Westbrook.

Clement? I doubt they offered.

Ron Madden
01-25-2006, 04:13 AM
Not for Westbrook, I'd rather ride Kearns out if the best we can do is Westbrook.

Clement? I doubt they offered.

I agree with Krono here.

Kearns has much more upside than Westbrook at this stage in the game but Clement for Austin is another story.

MikeS21
01-25-2006, 09:17 AM
I'm with Krono too. I would think long and hard before passing up a Clement for Kearns trade. I'll grant you that OB was a dolt, but trading Kearns would have solved a multitude of problems - first by giving the rotation a top of the line starter, and secondly, clearing an OF spot for Pena. Surely he's not that much of a dolt.

osuceltic
01-25-2006, 09:55 AM
I'd do Kearns-Clement, because the Reds desperately need pitching. But let's not make Clement out to be something he isn't. He has been a big-time tease for a while now. It looked like he was starting to put it all together last season, but started slumping in the second half, and never recovered after being hit by the line drive. He's still very much a question mark in my mind. Will he put it together with the Reds, or will he by Ryan Dempster? I think both are very real possibilities.

But, like I said, I'd do it. He's a high upside pitcher on a team that needs one, and he's the kind of arm the Reds just don't have. And Kearns is every bit the question mark Clement is -- if not more. He was so much more promising when he was younger and not so thick. Now he's just another lumbering corner outfielder with a questionable bat.

Krusty
01-25-2006, 10:13 AM
Problem I see with the three-way involving Boston, Cincy and Cleveland is the key player for the Tribe....Marte. If the Red Sox deal both Clement and Marte, they will need more in return than Crisp. If Boston just deals Clement, then it might not be enough for Cleveland if they just get Kearns for Crisp. Seems to me if Marte is included in the deal with the Tribe, the Tribe would need to second a second player in return to Boston. If Kearns went to Cleveland, then there is no need for the Tribe to swing the deal with Philly for Jason Michaels. So how about this:

Boston trades: Clement, Marte
Boston receives: Crisp, LHP Authur Rhodes, and minor leaguer.

Cleveland trades: OF Crisp, LHP Rhodes, and minor leaguer
Cleveland receives: OF Kearns, 3rd baseman Marte

Cincy trades: Kearns
Cincy receives: Clement.

membengal
01-25-2006, 03:45 PM
However this deal comes off, it needs to come off.

Matt Clement is a living breathing major league pitcher with plus stuff, and would give the Reds something approaching competence at the top of the staff. if Kullman revives this successfully, he gets my meaningless vote for permanent GM.

Bill
01-25-2006, 03:53 PM
There are reports that shapiro may sign weaver to a one year deal as they did millwood last year. That may lend itself to a westbrook deal if the Reds are interested. Of course Clement is preferable. We'll see.

Barbarossa
01-25-2006, 04:22 PM
He was probably kidding but one Tribe fan said the Reds are getting the two Jakes. Jake Dittler and Jake Westbrook. Jake....great name for a ballplayer don't 'ya think?

Matt700wlw
01-25-2006, 04:25 PM
Only if they take Milton

Nobody is going to take Milton unless somehow by the mid-season point he's managed to turn it around...

Matt700wlw
01-25-2006, 04:27 PM
Here's a thought - why not keep Kearns?

Let's see if he catches lightining in a bottle.

:dunno:

Why? Pitching is the key....Kearns is not. If you gamble and hope he catches lightning in a bottle, but the pitching is no better than last year.....it won't matter.

Matt700wlw
01-25-2006, 04:31 PM
Only way I would send Kearns for Westbrook is if the Indians do land Shoppach and in turn send him the Reds way.

And Kearns' numbers show him he has this much value in what way....?

WVRedsFan
01-25-2006, 04:41 PM
Why? Pitching is the key....Kearns is not. If you gamble and hope he catches lightning in a bottle, but the pitching is no better than last year.....it won't matter.

Can't argue with Matt on that can you? Also, we don't have Casey saying it's the end of the world if it goes down (of course, I'm sure Adam would be very unhappy and might make him think twice about signing a LTC).

I doubt the trade will go through, but I'd chance it.

Heath
01-25-2006, 05:47 PM
Why? Pitching is the key....Kearns is not. If you gamble and hope he catches lightning in a bottle, but the pitching is no better than last year.....it won't matter.

Matt - what if Kearns goes nuts and Clement's ERA is blown through the roof and you have two big pitching contracts for two of the worse pitchers in league?

That's the flip side of the argument :D

Its a possibility that Denorfia could rival Kearns' production - but I am not so sure. It also would add to a weaker bench, IMO.

Matt700wlw
01-25-2006, 05:48 PM
That's the problem with baseball. If a gamble backfires on you, you're screwed, because the contracts are gauranteed.

However a team like the Reds standing pat does nothing to improve the situation....

Heath
01-25-2006, 05:50 PM
That's the problem with baseball. If a gamble backfires on you, you're screwed, because the contracts are gauranteed.

However a team like the Reds standing pat does nothing to improve the situation....

I don't think the Reds will be standing pat.

And when they don't, you will probably be the first to know. :D

Enjoy the Hot Stove League - Matt - should be a good show.

Matt700wlw
01-25-2006, 05:52 PM
I don't think the Reds will be standing pat.

And when they don't, you will probably be the first to know. :D

Enjoy the Hot Stove League - Matt - should be a good show.

I don't think they will either....I attended a lucheon event a GABP today, and there were a lot of little hints being dropped on us by Kullman during the Q&A portion of the event. It was fun....

...no specific names mentioned, but hints.

Heath
01-25-2006, 05:55 PM
I don't think they will either....I attended a lucheon event a GABP today, and there were a lot of little hints being dropped on us by Kullman during the Q&A portion of the event. It was fun....

...no specific names mentioned, but hints.

See what you get to do for a living, while all of us other schmucks had to eat sandwiches and stare at co-workers? :D

Enjoy the show...

Marty and Joe
01-25-2006, 07:07 PM
I don't think they will either....I attended a lucheon event a GABP today, and there were a lot of little hints being dropped on us by Kullman during the Q&A portion of the event. It was fun....

...no specific names mentioned, but hints.

Now Matt....you can't throw a nugget like that out and not give us something more.

How about sharing some of those 'hints' so we can enjoy the speculation also? :evil:

red-in-la
01-25-2006, 07:46 PM
I don't get trading Kearns now that Dunn is at 1B. You trade Kearns and by June 1 when JR's season is over, you have WMP in the outfield with a couple of pure scrubs.

What am I missing?

Heath
01-25-2006, 08:11 PM
I don't get trading Kearns now that Dunn is at 1B. You trade Kearns and by June 1 when JR's season is over, you have WMP in the outfield with a couple of pure scrubs.

What am I missing?

Chris Denorfia - our own Mark Kotsay.

KearnsyEars
01-25-2006, 08:30 PM
I hope kearnsy regains that 2002 form when he was one of the best hitters in the league for a half season.

LoganBuck
01-25-2006, 11:36 PM
Which Lineup looks more plausible?

Freel RF
Lopez SS
Griffey CF
Dunn 1B
Pena LF
Larue C
Aurilla 2B
Encarnacion 3B

Freel 2B
Denorfia LF
Lopez SS
Griffey CF
Dunn 1B
Pena RF
Larue C
Encarnacion 3B

Krusty
01-26-2006, 12:33 AM
Had some free time at work tonight so I was trying to figure this three-team deal out which could benefit everyone:

Reds trade: OF Austin Kearns
Reds receive: RHP Matt Clement

Boston trades: RHP Matt Clement, RHP Manny Delcarmen, 3rd baseman Andy Marte and catcher Kelly Shoppach.

Boston receives: OF Cocoa Crisp, RHP Jake Westbrook, RHP David Riske and catcher Josh Bard.

Cleveland trades: RHP Jake Westbrook, OF Cocoa Crisp, RHP David Riske, catcher Josh Bard

Cleveland receives: OF Austin Kearns, 3rd baseman Andy Marte, RHP Manny Delcarmen and catcher Kelly Shoppach.

Cleveland replaces Westbrook in the rotation by signing Jeff Weaver.

Now that is what I call a slobber-knocker.

red-in-la
01-26-2006, 12:33 AM
Until JR's end-of-season hamy injury occurs, they both look less than exciting. Take JR out and put Freel and Denaforia starting everyday and the line up is in real trouble.

And the bench looks even worse.

What I fear happens is that Dunn goes back to LF and 1B get a revolving door of Valentin, Aurilia, LaRue and maybe even Womack.

Maybe if that kid the Reds have (Votto?) were close to ready it could work out.....but until something like that happens, Kearns is important.

Now, I were sure I could get Clement....I might have to reconsider....but if Westbrook is mediocre as others have posted, then NO THANKS.

If the rotation suddenly started with Clement, Harang, Claussen, Williams and Milton, then you might have to put up with a poorer line up....and much worse defense. But I would even have to think that one over a lot if it meant losing Kearns.

KronoRed
01-26-2006, 12:47 AM
Nobody is going to take Milton unless somehow by the mid-season point he's managed to turn it around...
Throw in a prospect of ours (if we have one) to get someone to take him.

Has to be some foolish or desperate GM out there ;)

KronoRed
01-26-2006, 12:47 AM
Chris Denorfia - our own Mark Kotsay.
The righty Mark Kotsay :D

Krusty
01-26-2006, 12:53 AM
Throw in a prospect of ours (if we have one) to get someone to take him.

Has to be some foolish or desperate GM out there ;)

Bowden mentioned last year the Nationals might be interested in Milton. Given the dimensions of RFK Stadium, it might be a good ballpark for Milton to pitch in.

Of course the Nationals would want the Reds to probably pick up at least half of Milton's remaining contract. But if you could add a young arm like Jon Rauch, you might have to consider it.

osuceltic
01-26-2006, 09:50 AM
Kullman was interviewed on our sports talk station here in Columbus yesterday and was very forthcoming about trade talks. Said he's trying, and that about 12 teams are willing to make moves. Said they'd discussed the three-way deal, but Clement was expensive. Said there are ways around that. Also was very up front in discussing Kearns as a guy they might move.

By the way ... Put me down in favor of trading Dunn. If you decide you're absolutely not doing that, then Kearns-Clement is OK. But if you're looking at everything, then trading Dunn makes the most sense. Four things can happen with him at this point: 1. He walks after next season and the Reds get nothing; 2. The Reds sign him to a huge, long-term contract; 3. The Reds trade him now and get a huge return; 4. The Reds try to sign him, don't, panic and trade him for 70 cents on the dollar.

I know most here favor No. 2. Not me. The last thing this team needs is to tie up a huge chunk of payroll in a one-dimensional corner player. Haven't we been down this road with big long-term contracts? And once you sign him to that big deal, his value only drops if you do decide to trade him. No, I'd rather trade him now when his value will never be higher and get some IMPACT starting pitching. You trade anyone else, and you don't get impact pitchers. Clement isn't an impact pitcher. He's a minor upgrade. Dunn is the only guy who gets what you need.

lollipopcurve
01-26-2006, 09:57 AM
Haven't we been down this road with big long-term contracts?

The contracts weren't the problem. The players were. The Reds should still try to tie up a solid core of players who are performing in their primes. It's the only way to put a consistent winner on the field.

TOBTTReds
01-26-2006, 10:09 AM
He is the official rumor. I guess this is a "revisited trade idea."


Red Sox | Three-Way Deal In Works?
Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:48:25 -0800

The Boston Herald's Michael Silverman is reporting talks of a three-way deal between the Cleveland Indians, Cincinnati Reds and Boston Red Sox are believed to have been revived in light of an Indians-Red Sox deal hitting a snag. A new deal would have Cincinnati Reds OF Austin Kearns heading to Cleveland, Boston Red Sox SP Matt Clement to Cincinnati and Indians OF Coco Crisp to the Red Sox.

Kc61
01-26-2006, 10:17 AM
Kullman was interviewed on our sports talk station here in Columbus yesterday and was very forthcoming about trade talks. Said he's trying, and that about 12 teams are willing to make moves. Said they'd discussed the three-way deal, but Clement was expensive. Said there are ways around that. Also was very up front in discussing Kearns as a guy they might move.

By the way ... Put me down in favor of trading Dunn. If you decide you're absolutely not doing that, then Kearns-Clement is OK. But if you're looking at everything, then trading Dunn makes the most sense. Four things can happen with him at this point: 1. He walks after next season and the Reds get nothing; 2. The Reds sign him to a huge, long-term contract; 3. The Reds trade him now and get a huge return; 4. The Reds try to sign him, don't, panic and trade him for 70 cents on the dollar.

I know most here favor No. 2. Not me. The last thing this team needs is to tie up a huge chunk of payroll in a one-dimensional corner player. Haven't we been down this road with big long-term contracts? And once you sign him to that big deal, his value only drops if you do decide to trade him. No, I'd rather trade him now when his value will never be higher and get some IMPACT starting pitching. You trade anyone else, and you don't get impact pitchers. Clement isn't an impact pitcher. He's a minor upgrade. Dunn is the only guy who gets what you need.

This is a very thoughtful post. For Dunn, I don't think you expect a young number one starter. I don't think those guys are traded often (eg, Prior). Instead, I think you get three young pitchers, top talents, perhaps two at the major league level and one prospect. This infusion of pitching would seriously upgrade the Reds team.

I don't think it will happen, though. My sense is that Kearns is going to the highest bidder for a starter. If so, Reds will be thin in the outfield and will need a to acquire a veteran back-up. (Denorfia to me is a fifth outfielder now, not a fourth. Reds will need a fourth.)

As your post says, would think that money is the issue with Clement. Probably not worth $9 million. So my guess is that the deal will depend on how much Boston/Cleveland will pay the Reds to offset salary differential.

My view is that the Reds need to be rebuilt around pitching and that there are very few position players who are really untouchable. Lopez, maybe, because he plays such a key position. More controversially, Pena maybe shouldn't be traded because he is so young; give him a full year playing every day before deciding.

With the rest of the position players, it is a matter of return. If enough pitching is coming back and the deal makes sense financially, go for it. This includes Dunn, who I'd love to keep, but will cost a fortune and may not want to stay anyway.

Johnny Footstool
01-26-2006, 10:17 AM
The Royals are reportedly still very interested in acquiring Kearns. They'd love the Reds to take MacDougal and Affeldt, but I'm pretty sure that would never happen.

Still, the Royals do have some cheap commodities (the first person who mentions Zach Greinke gets thumped on the head). How about a package deal including lefty J.P. Howell?

Krusty
01-26-2006, 10:23 AM
I think it will be either Westbrook or Clement for Kearns. Question is will Cleveland add another arm in a deal with Westbrook. Westbrook is a sinkerball pitcher and that is the type of pitcher the Reds need to pitch at GAB.

Clement's sagging numbers compared to his 2004 season has me worried. Was it just a bad year adjusting to a new league? He started off good but slumped the second half of the 2005 season. Then you have his contract.

The safe pick might be Westbrook and a prospect. Clement would be the higher gain but you have the risk element. And didn't the Reds get burned enough with the Eric Milton signing?

Ravenlord
01-26-2006, 10:31 AM
Westbrook

Age ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP BABIP
22 13.50 6.2 0.25 5.40 1.35 20.25 1.35 3.00 438
23 5.85 64.2 2.18 3.06 6.68 10.99 0.84 1.57 348
24 5.83 41.2 1.67 2.59 4.32 10.80 1.30 1.49 301
25 4.33 133 1.04 3.79 3.92 9.61 0.61 1.49 299
26 3.38 215.2 1.90 2.55 4.84 8.68 0.79 1.25 272
27 4.49 210.2 2.13 2.39 5.08 9.31 0.81 1.30 287
- 4.40 672.1 1.72 2.82 4.85 9.53 0.80 1.37 294

Clement
Age ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP BABIP
23 4.61 13.2 1.86 4.61 8.56 9.88 0.00 1.65 357
24 4.48 180.2 1.57 4.28 6.73 9.46 0.90 1.53 310
25 5.14 205 1.36 5.49 7.46 8.52 0.97 1.56 283
26 5.05 169.1 1.58 4.52 7.12 9.14 0.80 1.52 307
27 3.60 205 2.53 3.73 9.44 7.11 0.79 1.20 270
28 4.11 201.2 2.16 3.53 7.63 7.54 0.98 1.23 260
29 3.68 181 2.47 3.83 9.45 7.71 1.14 1.28 279
30 4.57 191 2.15 3.20 6.88 9.05 0.85 1.36 299
- 4.37 1347.1 1.92 4.09 7.84 8.34 0.91 1.38 288

Johnny Footstool
01-26-2006, 10:47 AM
Westbrook is a sinkerball pitcher and that is the type of pitcher the Reds need to pitch at GAB.

Westbrook is a pitch-to-contact pitcher. The Reds don't need any more like him. They need someone with good stuff who can miss bats instead of someone who relies on the defense, which is spectacularly awful.

Bill
01-26-2006, 12:01 PM
I saw again the Westbrook rumor given the tribe signs Weaver to a one year deal.

I had a discussion last winter with Steel about Westbrook. He correctly pointed out Westbrook's very low babip for 2004. It turns out Westbrook was not as lucky in 2005 yet he did pitch some very nice games and gives the team a lot of innings. I'll need to check how many quality starts he gave the tribe. If it did happen, I'd like to see a Denham, Sipp, Lofgren thrown in. Ideally, I'd like to see them go younger and cheaper than Westbrook.

RANDY IN INDY
01-26-2006, 12:05 PM
Westbrook is a pitch-to-contact pitcher. The Reds don't need any more like him. They need someone with good stuff who can miss bats instead of someone who relies on the defense, which is spectacularly awful.

Bingo!
:beerme:

Bill
01-26-2006, 12:24 PM
True, a power pitcher is preferred, but after watching Milton give up HRs last year, a sinkerball pitcher whom will induce groundballs at a ratio tops in the league is preferrable to any flyball pitcher in the Gabp.

KronoRed
01-26-2006, 12:37 PM
Nah, he'd just give up 50 doubles instead of 50 homers.

Pass.

Ravenlord
01-26-2006, 12:43 PM
Nah, he'd just give up 50 doubles instead of 50 homers.didn't Harang do that last year?

KronoRed
01-26-2006, 12:46 PM
Yep..52 in fact.

pedro
01-26-2006, 12:48 PM
Well, as long as Griffey is in CF the Reds picthers are going to give up a ton of doubles.