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View Full Version : who "stinks?" on this staff ?



jmac
01-24-2006, 05:52 PM
please, no "everyone" answers except of course that's how you really feel.
i turned on xm radio late last nite and heard some guy talking of how reds pitching is totally terrible or something to that effect.i also heard a guy on espn today saying basically the same thing.
granted our pitching alone would come in last in the central.however we dont exactly have the royals offence either.
today i seen my first baseball fantasy magazine for 2006.they said what i have been sayin ......harang and claussen could be something special with continued improvement.they actually rated harang on same plane as the "mighty"( not to some) jeff weaver.so exactly who is hopeless on this staff?

harang claussen=could be good possible #2 and #3 starters

coffey wagner= have upside if they can find it.nuxie made comment on WLW last nite if only soto could teach coffey changeup(!) in ST

belisle= many high on him....me.....undecided

weathers merker = not great but dependable

the top 5 guys mentioned are young and i wouldnt put any of these guys in the stinkaroonie category.

wilson= could be a good #5 but he isnt a #1

that leaves guys like milton hudson standridge who i would put in the :help: category.

so while the staff as a whole needs help i think there is at least a few bright rays of hope.people especially the so-called tv experts dont realize last yrs staff had graves and ortiz to go along with the milton's and hudson's.

btw it was great to see that first mlb mag on the shelves!

pedro
01-24-2006, 06:02 PM
You left out Dave Williams, who is somewhere between Claussen and Wilson IMO.

The biggest problems I see are that the Reds have too many pitchers who have similar stuff and too few starters who are really capable of pitching past the 6th inning, even on a good night. Together, these two factors are going to lead to a burned out bullpen and a lot of high scoring games.

Falls City Beer
01-24-2006, 06:08 PM
The only two pitchers in the entire Reds system, majors and minors, that represent any chance for "plus-hood" are Claussen and Harang. That's it.

Strikes Out Looking
01-24-2006, 06:10 PM
Make it three--I think you left out Homer Bailey.

MWM
01-24-2006, 06:11 PM
If Belisle is able to develop a little more stamina, I think he can be a really good long reliever. His problem is he throws mid 90s one day and can't for several days afterwards. He reminds me of Reitsma that way. But if he's not able to throw heat consistently, he won't amount to much.

But the fact that I'm calling out someone with *potential* to be an effective reliever as an exception should tell you enough about this pitching staff.

pedro
01-24-2006, 06:12 PM
The only two pitchers in the entire Reds system, majors and minors, that represent any chance for "plus-hood" are Claussen and Harang. That's it.

I'm not sure you can write off everyone in the minors yet, but probability tells us that most of them (even those who are highly touted) won't ever make an impact in the majors.

As for the Major league roster I suppose Wagner has *chance* to be a "plus" pitcher, but I've pretty much soured on him too.

RedsManRick
01-24-2006, 06:35 PM
Sorry for the crappy formatting... ERA & IP. You decide who stinks. I've bolded all the guys with ERAs under 5.00


Rank(IP) Name ERA IP
1. A Harang 3.83 211.2
2. E Milton 6.47 186.1
3. R Ortiz 5.36 171.1
4. B Claussen 4.21 166.2
5. M Belisle 4.41 85.2
6. L Hudson 6.38 84.2
7. D Weathers 3.94 77.2
8. K Mercker 3.65 61.2
9. T Coffey 4.50 58.0
10. R Keisler 6.27 56.0
11. P Wilson 7.77 46.1
12. R Wagner 6.11 45.2
13. J Standridge 4.06 31.0
14. R Stone 6.75 30.2
15. B Shackelford 2.43 29.2
16. E Ramirez 8.46 22.1
17. J Valentine 8.16 14.1
18. J Hancock 1.93 14.0
19. B Weber 8.03 12.1
20. A Simpson 12.27 7.1
21. C Booker 31.50 2.0

Redsland
01-24-2006, 10:47 PM
Among the starters, only Harang is better than league average, and only Claussen appears capable of joining him.

In the pen, if you concentrate on the young guys who'll be around for a couple years, there are a couple of maybe's, and I'm pretty well innoculated against maybe's after the past few years. Suffice it to say I'm not counting on much from Belisle, Coffey's velocity is a concern, and I think Wagner is a work in progress, at best.

IslandRed
01-24-2006, 10:51 PM
Make it three--I think you left out Homer Bailey.

Travis Wood too, but I think the frame of reference was the big club and 2006. I could be wrong.

dougdirt
01-24-2006, 10:57 PM
IslandRed, someone mentioned that Harang and Claussen were the only good pitchers in the entire system, Majors or Minors, which is why Centralchamps05 included Homer Bailey.

I would say the guys who dont stink as of right now are:
Harang, Claussen and Williams.
Milton stinks. Wilson Stinks.
Luke Hudson is undetermined for now. He came off injury last year and pitched horribly. Healthy the year before he pitched very well.
As for the bullpen, there are quite a few guys in there who dont stink. Weathers, Mercker, Belisle, Coffey, Shackleford....

KronoRed
01-24-2006, 11:24 PM
Everyone ;)

Seriously, Milton and Wilson are not going to be any good.

Caveat Emperor
01-24-2006, 11:41 PM
The "Bean Dinner" scene from Blazing Saddles immediately comes to mind, in that just about everyone seems to be contributing to the aroma surroudning the Reds pitching staff.

Harang had a good season last year and seems to be progressing nicely. The Reds worked him hard and he responded well by pitching consistently down the stretch. I'm eager to see if he continues to improve this year or regresses slightly. I'd say he does not stink.

I think Brandon Claussen could go either way -- he has numbers that concern me, namely that I think he puts too many people on base and doesn't pitch deeply into games. I'm torn on whether he's going to come crashing down this coming season or whether he's going to continue improving as he gets better at working all parts of the plate to compensate for his lack of velocity.

Beyond that, it's a lot of fools gold. I'll be interested to see what happens in the spring and in camp, but I don't see any "breakout" pitchers in the group.

roby
01-24-2006, 11:57 PM
I kind of agree with DougDirt that Hudson is still a possibility. He pitched really well two years ago before injury. Most of the Reds pitchers are soft-tossers...doesn't Hudson have a little bit if zip on the ball.
Also, what ever happened to Ricardo Aromboles and Bobby Basham. Are they both done or are they possible future contributors?

dougdirt
01-25-2006, 12:24 AM
Basham played in Sarasota and Chattanooga this year. He will be 26 at the start of this season. He put up good numbers at both stops with just 15 walks in 101 innings pitched while striking out 88. His ERA was 3.75 in Sarasota and 2.98 in Chattanooga. I think he may be a future possibility.
I have no idea where Aromboles is though.

Caveat Emperor
01-25-2006, 01:08 AM
I kind of agree with DougDirt that Hudson is still a possibility. He pitched really well two years ago before injury. Most of the Reds pitchers are soft-tossers...doesn't Hudson have a little bit if zip on the ball.

Yes, Hudson has velocity, but on the whole he is maddeningly inconsistent. He looked good in 2004, but it was only 9 starts that he made (small sample size) and he was already, at that point, showing signs of problems: 25 BB in 48 IP. 2005 did see him have injury probems and, in his defense, I feel he was rushed back to the majors too soon after only 1 rehab start. However, 50 BB v. 53 K in 84 IP just isn't going to cut it.

Actually watching him pitch was more revealing -- even when he was throwing strikes, he was throwing wildly in the zone and his HR/9 total was triple the total he posted in 2004. He was prone to losing focus on the mound, often letting problems snowball after a walk or a base hit and allowing it to create the dreaded "big inning" as opposed to pitching himself out of jams.

I was a big Hudson supporter in the past, but this year he's really got to show me something before I'm ready to declare him even roster-spot worthy.

dougdirt
01-25-2006, 01:17 AM
Yes, Hudson has velocity, but on the whole he is maddeningly inconsistent. He looked good in 2004, but it was only 9 starts that he made (small sample size) and he was already, at that point, showing signs of problems: 25 BB in 48 IP. 2005 did see him have injury probems and, in his defense, I feel he was rushed back to the majors too soon after only 1 rehab start. However, 50 BB v. 53 K in 84 IP just isn't going to cut it.

Actually watching him pitch was more revealing -- even when he was throwing strikes, he was throwing wildly in the zone and his HR/9 total was triple the total he posted in 2004. He was prone to losing focus on the mound, often letting problems snowball after a walk or a base hit and allowing it to create the dreaded "big inning" as opposed to pitching himself out of jams.

I was a big Hudson supporter in the past, but this year he's really got to show me something before I'm ready to declare him even roster-spot worthy.

Pretty much agree with everything you said.
I think last years problems, some of them at least, had to do with coming off the injury and coming off to early. I hope I am right, but if not, I hope he doesnt make the team because of what he has shown in the past(2004). He is one of the guys that I hope really has to prove they deserve a roster spot to make the club out of ST.

WVRedsFan
01-25-2006, 03:02 AM
Harang and Claussen appear to be the best of the bunch, but we'll have to wait and see IMHO. Harang has had a season and a half of consistency, but Brandon has only had spotty starts. I fault the umpires for sqeezing Claussen early in the season. So many close pitches were not called strikes and the pitch count kept rising to the point where the bullpen was called in early. These two are our hope. I don't think Williams is all that bad. Yes, he's a soft-tosser but at times mixes up his pitches and seems to pitch with his head. No, he's not what we should have got for Casey, but he's loads better than Luke Hudson and Randy Keisler which is what we had last year.

Paul Wilson may be effective again, but I'll be in shock if he is. Another Dan O'Brien mistake (the contract given him) will haunt us. Although many RedZoners thought it was a wise move, his injury-prone career probably will come to an abrupt end after this year. He's never impressed me as any more than a #5 starter. And he proved how smart he was a couple of years ago when challenging Kyle Farnsworth--a guy near twice as tall and 100 lbs. heavier. Like taking a knife to a gunfight.

I fear that Weathers will have a rough year. Injuries to fingers are nothing to laugh at. Mercker is Mercker. On one day and off the next. We have no closer unless Ryan Wagner steps up and I fear he has been mentally damaged (as well as physically compromised) due to all the work he had to do over the last two years. We have no closer without Wagner stepping up.

The rest of the bullpen is not up to snuff. Many like Coffey and others, but they are typical "second-half-of-the-division pitchers." Not bad, but not good. A crap shoot every night. Here is Bob Casellini's challenge. Many missed mentioning this, but Kullman commented on this last night on the XM interview (repeated tonight). We have no closer and we don't have a clue on anyone that could be a closer.

Folks, it's going to take awhile to get this franchise into championship trim. It's going to take pitching and that's the challenge RCast and his buddy from Baltimore have. It's too late to do much this year. I'm just glad that the man in charge recognizes the problem. For too long, nobody seemed to understand that. Why, i'll never know.