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View Full Version : Narron Informs Dayton That Taking First Strikes and 75-Pitch Limits are History



Unassisted
01-27-2006, 02:39 AM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0127redsside.html

Narron: Dragons will be able to swing away By Hal McCoy (http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/mailto:hmccoy@DaytonDailyNews.com)
Dayton Daily News


For those Dayton Dragons fans wondering about the edict imposed last year that hitters must take a strike before they can swing, well, that rule went down swinging with the departure of Cincinnati Reds General Manager Dan O'Brien.


Reds manager Jerry Narron, speaking Thursday to the Dayton Agonis Club, brought it up without being asked and said, "On taking a first strike, I guarantee that it is out. Learning the strike zone and not taking strikes is important in the development of our hitters."

Dayton fans, and most Reds staffers, were strongly against the rule imposed by the recently fired O'Brien.

In addition, Narron said the Dragons won't be saddled with a 75-pitch limit for their starters. That rule forced the club to use two "starting pitchers" in piggy-back fashion last year.

"You do need some pitch limits on young arms, but you also have to build up arm strength and you do that by throwing," Narron said. "We will let 'em pitch."

KronoRed
01-27-2006, 02:51 AM
Good that Dan O influence is being swept away, I just hope this doesn't lead to swinging at everything and 100 pitch counts for the starters

savafan
01-27-2006, 03:14 AM
The Dayton fans I know will be pleased.

MartyFan
01-27-2006, 06:40 AM
Later that same day...


Narron went on to say "we're teaching a new rule, we call it our swing to hit, pitch to miss rule"

:D

Heath
01-27-2006, 07:40 AM
The Dayton fans I know will be pleased.

Season tickets renewed.

RedFanAlways1966
01-27-2006, 08:36 AM
Good to see that pro-players will no longer be treated like little leaguers! :thumbup:

Sea Ray
01-27-2006, 11:25 AM
Didn't John Fay list these two edicts in the "good" column of O'Brien's tenure in a recent article about OB's 2 years here? Why is he such a "lamb" when speaking about O'Brien? I thought these edicts were reason 100 and 101 for O'Brien to be fired as they were idiotic. I'm glad they're gone and the fact they're ending it this soon, even before a new GM is hired shows me that this was totally OB's doing and has little support elsewhere in the organization.

ochre
01-27-2006, 11:47 AM
Season tickets renewed.
I know my dad will be happy.

M2
01-27-2006, 11:58 AM
IMO, it speaks volumes that Narron's the guy delivering this news. Jerry was DanO's guy and even he's torching the vestiges of DanO's reign. It's starting to sound like everyone outside of Wood, Reynolds and Taylor thought the guy was a boob.

Phil in BG
01-27-2006, 12:07 PM
IMO, it speaks volumes that Narron's the guy delivering this news. Jerry was DanO's guy and even he's torching the vestiges of DanO's reign. It's starting to sound like everyone outside of Wood, Reynolds and Taylor thought the guy was a boob.

Good point. It sounds like they're all getting themselves as far away from DanO as possible. Now the only thing to clear up is John Allen's role. I know he's been taken out of the baseball side, but I don't even like the fact that he's the one lining up interviews. Hopefully it's secretarial only.

ochre
01-27-2006, 12:14 PM
I was always kind of suspicious that Narron might have been actively undercutting Miley. Seeing him take this apparent retrograde action on his relationship with O'Brien begins to paint him as something of a questionable character in my mind. This is all subjective "non-insider" speculation on my part though. Just setting off some warning signals that I have developed from dealing with people that I have worked with.

Phil in BG
01-27-2006, 12:20 PM
The more versatile your position-player roster is, the better you would potentially be able to absorb some sort of change in personnel"
Mr. O'Brien

ochre, your signature says a lot. Every time he spoke you had to re-read to see what he really meant. I mean, it obviously understandable, but you would evidently never hear those words put together coming out of Bob Castellini's mouth.

Bill
01-27-2006, 12:27 PM
Can I also assume the failed and gimmicky tandem system is out for good?

knuckler
01-27-2006, 12:39 PM
IMO, it speaks volumes that Narron's the guy delivering this news. Jerry was DanO's guy and even he's torching the vestiges of DanO's reign. It's starting to sound like everyone outside of Wood, Reynolds and Taylor thought the guy was a boob.

So what happened to Dean Taylor? He isn't being mentioned as a GM candidate.

M2
01-27-2006, 12:52 PM
So what happened to Dean Taylor? He isn't being mentioned as a GM candidate.

Wasn't there some chatter that Taylor had spent the bulk of his time with the Reds rubbing people the wrong way?

Aside from that, his work as Milwaukee's GM and as a primary assistant to DanO leave a lot to be desired. Maybe he still has some scouting skills, but I wouldn't put him in charge of the water cooler let alone the team.

knuckler
01-27-2006, 01:51 PM
I for one am glad that Taylor isn't in consideration for the GM job. The total silence about him speaks volumes. But is he still employed by the Reds? Anybody? Anybody?

westofyou
01-27-2006, 01:56 PM
But is he still employed by the Reds? Anybody? Anybody?Sure he is, he was at the Press Conference and will probably stay all year, he's mostly on the scouting side of things.

But he is a Dan O guy, they both went to OU around the same time and have known each other forever, he's gonna be out of the loop.

M2
01-27-2006, 02:04 PM
Sure he is, he was at the Press Conference and will probably stay all year, he's mostly on the scouting side of things.

But he is a Dan O guy, they both went to OU around the same time and have known each other forever, he's gonna be out of the loop.

My guess is he gets his walking papers within a few weeks of the hiring of a new GM.

RFS62
01-27-2006, 02:04 PM
My guess is he gets his walking papers within a few weeks of the hiring of a new GM.


That's what I think too.

Clean house of all DanO relics.

KronoRed
01-27-2006, 02:22 PM
He'll get that..but in a nice way..

"reassigned"

;)

bucksfan
01-27-2006, 03:33 PM
I was always kind of suspicious that Narron might have been actively undercutting Miley. Seeing him take this apparent retrograde action on his relationship with O'Brien begins to paint him as something of a questionable character in my mind. This is all subjective "non-insider" speculation on my part though. Just setting off some warning signals that I have developed from dealing with people that I have worked with.

I don't knwo, ochre. I think you can stil be upstanding and respectful to someone you used to work for, but still have held some marked differences in philosophies. To me the important thing would be for Narron to do what he thinks is right now. Heck, maybe he was on the fence about the ideas before, or perhaps even a little reluctant, but now, after seeing the affects, became firmly convinced of their folly. Or maybe he just didn;t want to rock the boat his first year and now is ready to exert his thoughts more forcefully. Either way, I would just want him to do what he thought was right at this time.

Chip R
01-27-2006, 04:19 PM
I don't know whether or not Narron was in DanO's corner or not. After all, DanO brought him in here and was one of the multitudes DanO thanked at his opening press conference. It seems their philosophies are similar but Narron is more his own man than Miley was.

The announcement that these two pet projects of DanO was made in Dayton. I'm not suggesting that they aren't going to put the kibosh on those things but this was a good PR move because Dayton fans seem to have had the toughest time accepting these things. I'm guessing Narron was scheduled to be there anyway and when Bob decided to can DanO, Kullman gave Narron the go-ahead to announce at his speaking engagement in Dayton that they weren't going to do the tandem starter and take a first strike things.

captainmorgan07
01-27-2006, 04:33 PM
thank gosh that stupid pitch limit is off

Team Clark
01-27-2006, 04:59 PM
Wasn't there some chatter that Taylor had spent the bulk of his time with the Reds rubbing people the wrong way?

Aside from that, his work as Milwaukee's GM and as a primary assistant to DanO leave a lot to be desired. Maybe he still has some scouting skills, but I wouldn't put him in charge of the water cooler let alone the team.

ABSOLUTELY!!! He has not made any friends I can tell you that with great certainty. He rode John Schuerholz's coat tails to the Milwaukee post. Not it's time for him to go hide. Dean is a sure bet to turn your farm system into a mess. Get him outta there. I wouldn't wait until a new GM is hired. The sooner he goes the better. As one Reds consultant told me Monday, "Dean is the other shoe to drop".

Puffy
01-27-2006, 05:02 PM
Now, if they would just outlaw this pitch to contact crap......

REDREAD
01-27-2006, 05:06 PM
I'm thrilled to see two of DanO's stupidest ideas bite the dust..

Ring out the old, bring in the new :)

ochre
01-27-2006, 05:33 PM
I don't knwo, ochre. I think you can stil be upstanding and respectful to someone you used to work for, but still have held some marked differences in philosophies. To me the important thing would be for Narron to do what he thinks is right now. Heck, maybe he was on the fence about the ideas before, or perhaps even a little reluctant, but now, after seeing the affects, became firmly convinced of their folly. Or maybe he just didn;t want to rock the boat his first year and now is ready to exert his thoughts more forcefully. Either way, I would just want him to do what he thought was right at this time.
Oh, I'm not convicting him. I'm just observing what I see as a potential pattern of behavior. Like I said, I have no inside knowlege, just gut feeling :).

SteelSD
01-27-2006, 05:42 PM
Two examples of ideas that, on the surface, looked good to O'Brien but were indiscriminately implemented.

Instead of simply telling hitters to take strike one, why not actually isolate the folks with pitch recognition deficiencies and focus on working with them? Not 'take-a-strike', but work with them to help them figure out what they should be swinging at. Never could figure that one out.

And the pitch count limitation is a good idea if applied in the context of pitch counts per Inning rather than total per game. For example, if a Homer Bailey finishes his first three Innings while thowing an average of 17-20 pitches per Inning, then yeah- shut him down after 75 because his workload has been more intensive than if he were throwing 14-16 pitches per Inning. If he's at the lower level of P/IP, then let him stretch it out while carefully watching him. Seems to me that would have been a better way to protect young arms while also allowing for the opportunity to build stamina.

But instead of implementing reasonable development tools, O'Brien decided to build a house of ideas gone wrong. Good to see that the Reds are rectifying the errors, but I sure as heck hope they'll begin to implement necessary reasonable developmental strategies in place of those bad ideas.

princeton
01-27-2006, 05:44 PM
Talk like this makes me think that the GM's already in place-- or at least that Narron thinks so

me, I'd wait before I acted like I was mouthpiece. I'm still hoping more garbage gets dumped.

KronoRed
01-27-2006, 05:45 PM
Narron is probably just trying to go into "blame Dan O" mode so he looks like a team player to the next GM

Doc. Scott
01-27-2006, 05:47 PM
I agree- the problem with the "take a strike", 75-pitch count, and tandem starters is that they create constrictions that ignore the individual players' particular instructional needs. I agree with the aims behind the rules, but screwing with the performance of freshly-created professional athletes that must have been doing something right to get to where they were was myopic.

I was originally on board with the eight-man rotation and 75-pitch count, for the record (never the "take strike one"), but after witnessing two seasons of mediocre-at-best results without much reduction in lost time (although, I suppose if you wanted to you could pin the Gardner and Pauly injuries, for example, on college), it became clear that it was cutting off the organizational nose to spite its face.

Aronchis
01-27-2006, 06:02 PM
I agree- the problem with the "take a strike", 75-pitch count, and tandem starters is that they create constrictions that ignore the individual players' particular instructional needs. I agree with the aims behind the rules, but screwing with the performance of freshly-created professional athletes that must have been doing something right to get to where they were was myopic.

I was originally on board with the eight-man rotation and 75-pitch count, for the record (never the "take strike one"), but after witnessing two seasons of mediocre-at-best results without much reduction in lost time (although, I suppose if you wanted to you could pin the Gardner and Pauly injuries, for example, on college), it became clear that it was cutting off the organizational nose to spite its face.

Pauly was a power reliever in college that already had a suspect arm. Gardner's came from nowhere. I think it was a bone spur that tore up his shoulder.

FWIW, I think Krivisky has the job hands down. His comments on "re-interviewing", Cast "happy" Allen is staying through the "transition" are hints IMO. Krivisky also was announced first. My view is Cast is hearing Krivisky's experience and success story with the Twins, Allen giving him mucho props and possibly Ryan as well.

TeamBoone
01-27-2006, 11:18 PM
I doubt Castellini will take to heart any props from Allen. I think he'll just make his own assessment.

Dom Heffner
01-29-2006, 02:03 PM
Good to see that pro-players will no longer be treated like little leaguers!

Did they say anything about eliminating the .50 spending limit per player at the concession stand after each victory?

I lived for that rule when I played in little league. Slush puppy, here I come. :)