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View Full Version : Random idea - make Milton the closer



M2
01-27-2006, 06:41 PM
Yeah, I convulsively shivered when I typed it, but I thought it might be worth musing on.

Milton does occasionally flash ability. Some starts he's on, more often he's not. When he's on, his fastball is down in the zone with some life an accuracy.

Maybe, due to his knee, he's only got 15 pitches in him on a given night. Maybe if you let him rear back and just fire away you'd be able to wring some value out of the guy. No, I'm not convinced it'll work either.

But what do the Reds have to lose? It's not like there's a Plan A for the closer role at the moment. If you try Milton there in ST and he flops then you've lost nothing. The club should already know that it's asking for a beatdown if he starts. Might as well reach into the hat and try to pull a rabbit from it.

Crosley68
01-27-2006, 07:12 PM
Hmmmmmm......it did seem that he pitched his worse after he got through the order once.......not sure it is such a crazy idea M2.

MattyHo4Life
01-27-2006, 07:19 PM
Milton for one inning would be better than Milton for 6. ;)

RFS62
01-27-2006, 07:20 PM
He does have a lot of experience pitching from a stretch.

GAC
01-27-2006, 07:20 PM
Why not? He's already proved he's an opener. :lol:

Unassisted
01-27-2006, 07:35 PM
Not a bad idea. My guess is that Milton would never go for it, and pitchers who are paid that much seem to have leverage. It took many more months than remain before the 2006 season starts for Danny Graves to get his mind around the opposite switch.

It may be too much of a leap for ownership to swallow, having the closer be the highest paid pitcher. That's the kind of outside-the-box thinking that probably leads to snickering from the other side of the banquet table at owners' meetings.

Although the snickers might be easier to accept than the offers of sympathy for having such an expensive and historically bad starter.

RBA
01-27-2006, 07:53 PM
GREAT IDEA!!!! I would love one of the starters to take a tire iron to him after he blew one too many saves.

GADawg
01-27-2006, 07:53 PM
anyone know if Kevin Brown is anywhere near anything that could be considered healthy? It doesn't seem as if Brown has alot of suitors and he'd be a pure bulldog coming out of the pen...if the price was right...IMO.

Cooper
01-27-2006, 07:57 PM
i like that idea --it's a possible way to rehabilitate his value --2 good months and maybe you could trade him.

i also like the kevin brown idea --he was way hit unlucky--it's worth a shot -by the way -he's a little crazy --which ain't such a bad thing for a pitcher.

M2
01-27-2006, 08:01 PM
Not a bad idea. My guess is that Milton would never go for it, and pitchers who are paid that much seem to have leverage. It took many more months than remain before the 2006 season starts for Danny Graves to get his mind around the opposite switch.

It may be too much of a leap for ownership to swallow, having the closer be the highest paid pitcher. That's the kind of outside-the-box thinking that probably leads to snickering from the other side of the banquet table at owners' meetings.

Although the snickers might be easier to accept than the offers of sympathy for having such an expensive and historically bad starter.

I hear you, but after last season I'm not sure that what Eric Milton wants counts for anything. If he made a public trade demand, the GM could point out that no one wants him. If he kvetched that he's a starter instead of reliever, the GM could state that he's got a season's worth of video that proves otherwise.

As for Castellini taking heat for such a move, I figure most owner discussions about baseball revolve around lurid locker room stories. After that, it's all about the stock market and boating.

RedsBaron
01-27-2006, 09:11 PM
He does have a lot of experience pitching from a stretch.
:laugh: I do like M2's idea though.

buckeyenut
01-27-2006, 09:19 PM
anyone know if Kevin Brown is anywhere near anything that could be considered healthy? It doesn't seem as if Brown has alot of suitors and he'd be a pure bulldog coming out of the pen...if the price was right...IMO.

I love the idea of Kevin Brown in the pen. From what I remember, he seemed to have better stuff than John Smoltz.

TC81190
01-27-2006, 09:20 PM
Yeah, why not. There's no one else for the job, Milton sucks as a starter, plus if he could magically post a sub 2.50 ERA someone might take him and part of his salary.

creek14
01-27-2006, 09:23 PM
I'm not too sure.

It's like trying to undo the Graves to starter idea and I'm afraid it might rip a hole in the universe.

TC81190
01-27-2006, 09:24 PM
I'm afraid it might rip a hole in the universe.

Next to the one that the ball Jeff Weaver smacked off Milty poked up there?

Cyclone792
01-27-2006, 09:54 PM
Quite a few successful relief pitchers become relief pitchers because they were failed starters.

I fully support M2's idea.

Reds1
01-27-2006, 09:55 PM
and I thought we paid too much for Graves as a closer! :)

TC81190
01-27-2006, 09:55 PM
Quite a few successful relief pitchers become relief pitchers because they were failed starters.

I fully support M2's idea.

Eric Gagne.

captainmorgan07
01-27-2006, 10:04 PM
if they try it in spring training and it works maybe but they have to try it first and make 100% sure

Falls City Beer
01-27-2006, 10:07 PM
I hear you, but after last season I'm not sure that what Eric Milton wants counts for anything. If he made a public trade demand, the GM could point out that no one wants him. If he kvetched that he's a starter instead of reliever, the GM could state that he's got a season's worth of video that proves otherwise.

As for Castellini taking heat for such a move, I figure most owner discussions about baseball revolve around lurid locker room stories. After that, it's all about the stock market and boating.

If Eric Milton wants a major league job after this contract expires--he'll at least entertain the idea.

And Castellini simply can't let this guy go out there and turn his park, in the owner's inaugural year, into a giant feces sandwich every fifth day. What a PR disaster. I really think Cast would rather cut him and eat the contract then let that happen.

4256 Hits
01-27-2006, 10:42 PM
I would put him in middle relief a first because based on how he pitched last year that is where he belongs. He has to pitch his way into a bigger role.

He is sunk cost so put him in the place he can do the least amount of damage and maybe pitching in the BP will be good for him and he could develop into a closer.

TeamBoone
01-27-2006, 10:49 PM
How much do other teams pay for a closer? For a good closer? For a lights out closer?

It sounds like just the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that this club needs to consider. If they never give it a try (preferrably in ST), how will they ever know?

And like someone else said, if it works and his salary is comparable to other closers, the Reds could potentially flip him.

One thing that potentially worries me. If he really doesn't want to try it, would he go so far as to tank it?

How do you get this idea to the Reds? I sincerely doubt anyone has thought of it.

Marc D
01-27-2006, 11:10 PM
One thing that potentially worries me. If he really doesn't want to try it, would he go so far as to tank it?


Let him tank it. How much worse could he be? He might screw around and actually get someone out.

Chip R
01-27-2006, 11:19 PM
How much do other teams pay for a closer? For a good closer? For a lights out closer?

It sounds like just the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that this club needs to consider. If they never give it a try (preferrably in ST), how will they ever know?

And like someone else said, if it works and his salary is comparable to other closers, the Reds could potentially flip him.

One thing that potentially worries me. If he really doesn't want to try it, would he go so far as to tank it?

How do you get this idea to the Reds? I sincerely doubt anyone has thought of it.

I'm not sold on the idea since I have visions of Milton giving up bombs like Graves did. He doesn't really blow anyone away and he doesn't have a trick pitch either. He's definitely not a ground ball machine like Graves was in his prime. None of those things spells closer to me. Plus if he goes out of the rotation, we have to replace him with another guy like the Lizard or Hancock. With Wilson a question mark the Reds are kind of shorthanded in the starting pitcher area. If you try it in ST, and it doesn't work, it's going to be a while before his arm gets back into starting pitching form.

Still it's an intriguing idea. Milton for one or two innings may be better than Milton for 5 or 6. Teams will pay what Milton makes for a lights out closer, TB. I don't think tanking it will be an issue here. There's an old saying that holds true for every sport, you're not just playing for your team, you're playing for everyone else too. Meaning that other teams are watching you play and if your present team doesn't need you, someone else might so it isn't wise to dog it out there. Besides, from what I've heard, Milton is a solid character guy and an extremely hard working player. And he's got to feel terribly guilty about his performance last year. He's got a lot of incentive to get back into the fans, as well as the team's, good graces. He isn't in a position to do much whining.

As for getting this idea to the powers that be, I have this shindig down at GAB tomnorrow night. I have heard that Kullman would speak to us but that was before his promotion. If he's there and I get the opportunity to talk to him, I'll run it by him.

Patrick Bateman
01-27-2006, 11:35 PM
Quite a few successful relief pitchers become relief pitchers because they were failed starters.


Then we have 20 closers in waiting.

I would suggest that a closer needs a little more than "failed at starter" on his resume to instantly become the next Goose Gossage.

Most starters who fail at starter and became great closers did so because they had 1, maybe 2 really good pitches, but lacked a more complete repitoire and/or stamina.

I see nothing about Milton to suggest that he has those atttributes.

BCubb2003
01-27-2006, 11:40 PM
Milton's stats in the first inning aren't very good, are they?

TeamBoone
01-27-2006, 11:41 PM
As for getting this idea to the powers that be, I have this shindig down at GAB tomnorrow night. I have heard that Kullman would speak to us but that was before his promotion. If he's there and I get the opportunity to talk to him, I'll run it by him.

Thanks for the insight and the info, Chip, especially about the tanking. It makes sense. Makes me wonder how Pokey found a job after his gig with the Reds.

Great idea above!!!!!

Also, you might even want to pimp Redszone. I find it amazing how much intelligent information is presented on this forum.

I would think that some, if not a lot, of it would benefit them in some way. Even if only ONE THING strikes them as beneficial, it would pay for their time spent in perusing the obvious threads. They should be thrilled with the opportunity to get in touch with the fans, especially with the intelligent fans of Redszone. Heck, they might even learn a thing or three... that's how much I value the opinions of a ton of posters here (you included).

And, obviously, as real names aren't used (for the most part), they wouldn't be able to hunt anyone down that said something detrimental.

wally post
01-27-2006, 11:41 PM
He does have a lot of experience pitching from a stretch.

GREAT! yeah.

Cyclone792
01-27-2006, 11:59 PM
Then we have 20 closers in waiting.

I would suggest that a closer needs a little more than "failed at starter" on his resume to instantly become the next Goose Gossage.

Most starters who fail at starter and became great closers did so because they had 1, maybe 2 really good pitches, but lacked a more complete repitoire and/or stamina.

I see nothing about Milton to suggest that he has those atttributes.

Right now, we're stuck with Milton due to his salary; we're not stuck with those 20 other clowns. That's a key difference.

If Milton's job is to go in and throw 20 pitches, then he can really bear down, let loose and pump his velocity up on his fastball since he doesn't have to worry about pacing himself as he would if he were starting. There's a good chance he could improve his K rate while also decreasing his HR rate, just as most other failed starters can do when they come out of the bullpen.

Outside of 2000, Ryan Dempster was absolutely terrible as a starting pitcher, including his brief stint right here in Cincinnati. The Cubs grab him in 2004, test him out of the bullpen and he doesn't pitch poorly. In 2005 they let him go the entire season out of the pen and he turns in a 136 ERA+, all the while increasing his K rate and decreasing his HR rate. No, I wouldn't consider Dempster great out of the bullpen, but he suddenly had some positive value.

If Eric Milton can give us an above average ERA+ as a reliever then he too will be giving us positive value for about 80 innings instead of the negative value he'll give us over 200 innings. Milton's a sunk cost right now with little to no positive value. Nothing more than a 200 inning pile of junk with a tremendous amount of negative value, in fact. Even if he's an average pitcher out of the bullpen, we'd at least be diminishing the amount of negative value he'd be giving us.

pedro
01-28-2006, 01:29 AM
Minimizing the number of pitches that Milton has to throw is a great idea IMO. I just wonder how well he would respond to pitching more frequently, as some guys have a harder time adjusting to this than others.

KronoRed
01-28-2006, 02:50 AM
I like it..if he explodes again as expected I hope they at least move him to the pen.

Caveat Emperor
01-28-2006, 03:50 AM
Minimizing the number of pitches that Milton has to throw is a great idea IMO. I just wonder how well he would respond to pitching more frequently, as some guys have a harder time adjusting to this than others.

I too wonder about this -- with his injury history and his bad knee, I imagine that he needs every one of those 4 or 5 days off to recover and get his strength back. Going out and pitching on a nightly basis might not be the best thing for his knee.

I'm still wondering if Milton was under marching orders from DanO to throw a sinking fastball more often, especially early in the count. He set a career high in OPSA, struck out half a batter fewer per 9 innings, but also posted the best GB/FB ratio of his career. Though, if this were the case, I fully expect that he would've said something to shift the blame off himself for the horrid season he had last year.

I agree with M2 and Cyclone, though. As a member of the starting rotation, he's a dead hole -- posting the second-worst VORP for a pitcher in the majors. Simply exchanging him in the rotation with a league-average player instantly makes the Reds a better team. If they can turn him into a 0-value VORP pitcher in the pen, it's a good thing for the team.

MattyHo4Life
01-28-2006, 07:37 AM
How much do other teams pay for a closer? For a good closer? For a lights out closer?

It sounds like just the sort of out-of-the-box thinking that this club needs to consider. If they never give it a try (preferrably in ST), how will they ever know?

And like someone else said, if it works and his salary is comparable to other closers, the Reds could potentially flip him.

Milton might be a better Reliever than a Starter, but he isn't a very good pitcher period. If this was succesful, he still probably wouldn't be anymore than an average Closer, and his contract will still look horrible.

lollipopcurve
01-28-2006, 08:33 AM
Just about anything is preferable to what he did last year. But I'd give him another shot in the rotation, and if there's no significant improvement, I'd send him to the pen as a situational lefty (his numbers against lefties are OK) and garbage innings guy. In the meantime, I'd give the young guys (Coffey, Belisle, Wagner, even Simpson) their shots to see if anyone emerges. In the event the young guys fail, then maybe the already desperate Milton gets a chance. However, just watching Milton leads me to believe he does not have the predisposition to close. He seems decidedly unadrenalized and nonresilient.

TeamBoone
01-28-2006, 11:17 AM
Just about anything is preferable to what he did last year. But I'd give him another shot in the rotation, and if there's no significant improvement, I'd send him to the pen as a situational lefty (his numbers against lefties are OK) and garbage innings guy.

And I'd do it sooner rather than later... not wait until August or September.

To stick with a guy who's performing badly just because he's getting top dollar is folly... and that's what they did last year. They've got to pay him regardless of whether he's on the mound or warming the bench. If he isn't performing, get him out of the game and give the offence at least a bleeping chance before getting buried prior to the third inning!

westofyou
01-28-2006, 11:32 AM
He does have a lot of experience pitching from a stretch.
Problem is he K's less guys from the stretch. For his career it's 7.2 to 5.6 from windup to stretch. Last year it was 6/5.8

His rate last year 5.94 was his career worst and 1.27 less than the year before, that rate represents exactly 27 less K's over his whole season.

TeamBoone
01-28-2006, 11:40 AM
Problem is he K's less guys from the stretch. For his career it's 7.2 to 5.6 from windup to stretch. Last year it was 6/5.8

His rate last year 5.94 was his career worst and 1.27 less than the year before, that rate represents exactly 27 less K's over his whole season.

Perhaps that's dependent upon when the "stretch" becomes necessary? Maybe if he hasn't already thrown X number of pitches before pitching in the stretch becomes necessary, he might be more productive?

I'm not trying to disagree with you, more like trying to stir up the pot.

westofyou
01-28-2006, 11:46 AM
Perhaps that's dependent upon when the "stretch" becomes necessary? Maybe if he hasn't already thrown X number of pitches before pitching in the stretch becomes necessary, he might be more productive?

I'm not trying to disagree with you, more like trying to stir up the pot.

Actually it's the pressure the stretch puts on his bad knee that causes the problem, so if said knee isn't sore from the get-go then maybe it won't effect him.

RFS62
01-28-2006, 12:09 PM
Problem is he K's less guys from the stretch. For his career it's 7.2 to 5.6 from windup to stretch. Last year it was 6/5.8

His rate last year 5.94 was his career worst and 1.27 less than the year before, that rate represents exactly 27 less K's over his whole season.


Yeah, I was just being a smartass.

I've noticed that he sees a lot of baserunners when he pitches. Although, he does avoid that situation fairly often too, as many hitters he faces don't actually stop at a base until they reach home again.

M2
01-28-2006, 12:35 PM
Problem is he K's less guys from the stretch. For his career it's 7.2 to 5.6 from windup to stretch. Last year it was 6/5.8

His rate last year 5.94 was his career worst and 1.27 less than the year before, that rate represents exactly 27 less K's over his whole season.

My solution to that is to stop pitching out of the stretch. He probably would have the luxury of ignoring a single baserunner in a lot of closing situations.

StillFunkyB
01-28-2006, 09:58 PM
I actually wouldn't mind seeing if it could work, but....

If it fails in ST, and even worse the first month of the season, then he is completely lost for the whole season. I know what your thinkin, well he can't get any worse and the Reds are already wasting that money in the first place. I would rather have an Eric Milton that makes 2 quality starts then an Eric Milton that the Reds are paying all that money to with 0 quality starts.

I also love the idea of Kevin Brown if:

A.) He is healthy
B.) He is cheap

remdog
01-28-2006, 10:20 PM
Steve: Well Marty, here we are in the bottom of the ninth, Reds lead by a run but there are two runners on with no one out.

Marty: Yeah, but Jerry knows what he's doing. He's bringing in the savey left-hander, Eric Milton to face left-handed hitting Alito Smallball.

Steve: Right Marty. A good move. Alito is known for his fine glove but the coaches still have to tell him to turn the label up. Like most of the shortstops from the Dominican, he's a free swinger. As they say, ya' can't walk off the island. Of course, with his 2 doubles and a sac fly last year in 563 at bats, he can be dangerous at times.

Marty: Milton's the right choice here Steve. His 83 mile per hour fastball and 82 mile per hour changeup should take the bat right out of Alito's hands because Milton is one of those crafty veterans that know how to win. Just like the tomato garden, ya' can't find that kind of quality in just any corner grocery store. Where, oh where, would the Reds be now if Dan O'Brien hadn't had the vision to sign Eric Milton!?!

Marty: Here's the pitch. Alito swings and sends a popup towards second base while hitting himself in the head with the back swing.....the ball's got a little carry on it. Dunn and Freel droping back into the outfield....Kearns drifting back.....the bull pen guys are on their feet....the crowd is drifting back....#$%#$%!%!!! (Dead Air)

Rem

Candy Cummings
01-28-2006, 10:43 PM
Is that the kind of "creative thinking" we keep getting promised? Who knows, it could work.

BCubb2003
01-28-2006, 10:54 PM
I remember when Ted Power went from being a top closer to melting down Danny Graves-style each time he came in. When the decision was made to make him a starter, I thought, "This is going to be ugly," but he went on to a decent career as a starter. So stranger things have happened. Ryan Dempster is probably the best example of a troubled starter becomes an effective closer, but that's not proof, is it?

Chip R
01-28-2006, 11:03 PM
I did get to speak to Kullman tonight about this subject. He told me someone already e-mailed him about that last night. Which one of you was it? ;) Anyway he seemed open to the idea but needed a better reason than using him for an inning is better than using him for several innings. He said he would like to see him as a mopup man.

I also asked him about moving Jr. to LF and using WMP in CF. He said it's been discussed. He said Bench talked to Kullman about it and said when he played 1st it wasn't an easy gig since he had to move around a lot with lots of starts and stops. They feel that whatever runs Jr. gives up in CF is offset by his presence in the lineup.

He's also still very high on the 4 man rotation. He's done a lot of research on pitching.

11BarryLarkin11
01-28-2006, 11:28 PM
anyone know if Kevin Brown is anywhere near anything that could be considered healthy? It doesn't seem as if Brown has alot of suitors and he'd be a pure bulldog coming out of the pen...if the price was right...IMO.

I gotta tell ya, I love that idea. I don't know if Brown would be ammendable to it, but he might be better suited to relief at this stage in his career. He certainly isn't in high demand, so he'd probably work cheap. If he is healthy, I'd say give it a go.

Nice thinking!

Jpup
01-29-2006, 04:46 AM
I did get to speak to Kullman tonight about this subject. He told me someone already e-mailed him about that last night. Which one of you was it? ;) Anyway he seemed open to the idea but needed a better reason than using him for an inning is better than using him for several innings. He said he would like to see him as a mopup man.

I also asked him about moving Jr. to LF and using WMP in CF. He said it's been discussed. He said Bench talked to Kullman about it and said when he played 1st it wasn't an easy gig since he had to move around a lot with lots of starts and stops. They feel that whatever runs Jr. gives up in CF is offset by his presence in the lineup.

He's also still very high on the 4 man rotation. He's done a lot of research on pitching.

thanks for that. :thumbup:

KronoRed
01-29-2006, 05:30 AM
Thanks Chip :)

Can you imagine the same conversation with Dan O? ;)

remdog
01-29-2006, 06:51 AM
by ChipR: "He said he would like to see him as a mopup man."

Kullman actually said that!?

Rem

Chip R
01-29-2006, 08:13 AM
by ChipR: "He said he would like to see him as a mopup man."

Kullman actually said that!?

Rem

Yep. Pretty candid, no?

remdog
01-29-2006, 08:43 AM
Hmmmm.....
Kullman just took a step up in the GM race in my book.

Rem

Falls City Beer
01-29-2006, 10:10 AM
by ChipR: "He said he would like to see him as a mopup man."

Kullman actually said that!?

Rem


So did FCB. ;)

Krusty
01-29-2006, 10:17 AM
Anybody think Eric Milton might be Comeback Player of the Year for 2006?

What happens if the sinkerball he has been working on is a success? He is a professional athlete. You would think there would be a little thing called pride which would fuel the fire to show everyone that he isn't toast.

Milton has hit rock bottom. There is only one way to go.

RFS62
01-29-2006, 10:33 AM
Milton has hit rock bottom. There is only one way to go.


If the source of his problems is that knee, he's got plenty more room to fall.

What a brilliant freakin' idea it was to bring him here and try to teach him a sinkerball at this stage in his career.

PuffyPig
01-29-2006, 10:50 AM
Outside of 2000, Ryan Dempster was absolutely terrible as a starting pitcher, including his brief stint right here in Cincinnati. The Cubs grab him in 2004, test him out of the bullpen and he doesn't pitch poorly. In 2005 they let him go the entire season out of the pen and he turns in a 136 ERA+, all the while increasing his K rate and decreasing his HR rate. No, I wouldn't consider Dempster great out of the bullpen, but he suddenly had some positive value.



Dempster was an all star atarter who suddendly failed as a starter (likely) due to injuries (though it may not have been known at the time).

He then got healthy. That probably has as much to due with his recent success as the change to starting.

Hey, no one really knows whether or not if Milton could make it as a reliever. But there's nothing in his resume to think that the problems he's having starting would disappear if he's a closer.

M2
01-29-2006, 11:14 AM
Big credit to Kullman for already wanting him out of the rotation.

RFS62
01-29-2006, 11:21 AM
Big credit to Kullman for already wanting him out of the rotation.


Yep.

We ran him out there last year when he stunk up the joint to justify DanO's decision. Nobody's ass to cover now.

If he doesn't get it together, mop up sounds about right, then maybe closer if he shows he can get people out.

Otherwise, he's just a higher priced Jimmy Haynes.

KronoRed
01-29-2006, 02:19 PM
Or..if the owner has the guts, outright release and just eat the cash.

Caveat Emperor
01-29-2006, 03:14 PM
Or..if the owner has the guts, outright release and just eat the cash.

As a "mopup" guy, if he improves slightly back to a little over his career norms, he's not too awful -- certainly better than anything the Reds can trot up from AAA. I'd rather get him to eat innings in blowouts than have him sitting at home watching his giant big screen on my nickel.

The key is that the new GM isn't just penciling 1 loss per week into the rotation by throwing him out there regardless. That, I likes a lot.

corkedbat
01-29-2006, 05:04 PM
I thought part of Milton's problems last year was his performance in his first inning of work. I don't know that giving him 60-70 first innings as a closer as opposed to 30-35 as a starter is a recipe for improvement. :D

Chip R
01-29-2006, 05:47 PM
I thought part of Milton's problems last year was his performance in his first inning of work. I don't know that giving him 60-70 first innings as a closer as opposed to 30-35 as a starter is a recipe for improvement. :D

Perhaps. But when you're a starter you have to pace yourself to pitch an entire game and not just one inning. If you know you will only pitch one inning you can throw as hard as you can knowing you won't throw more than 20 innings.

Personally, I think we are OK as far as closers go. I'm more concerned about the guys that are starting the games rather than the guys that are closing them. Graves had about 10 or so saves last year before he was released. A pitcher can give up a line drive to the 3rd baseman a liner to the 2nd baseman and a deep fly ball that the CF had to go over the wall to make the catch and that's 3 outs just as if he struck everybody out. The odds are better that a pitcher can pitch one scoreless inning than if he pitches multiple innings. If the Reds were in the middle of a pennant race and they had trouble getting through the 9th inning, I might think differently.

REDREAD
01-30-2006, 02:53 PM
I guess I don't like the idea of moving Milton into a closer, because I've seen no evidence that Milton can actually bear down and put that little extra on it.

Milton is extremely inconsistent. Last year, it seemed like he'd totally lose it and give up huge innings.

I'd consider moving him to middle relief, but then who do you move into the rotation to replace him? Let's assume the rotation now is: Harang, Claussen, Williams, Milton, and ? Wilson.. I guess you could use Belise if Wilson is healthy, but he seems to do better in relief.

Right now, we're looking at 2 more years of Milton. I know everyone wants to get rid of him. Since we aren't contending next year, I think it's better to hope he can turn in a 4.75 ERA as a starter, and maybe at the deadline, someone will pick him up as a 5th starter. Yes, that's a longshot, but I think it's a bigger longshot to hope he can become a closer people will get excited about. Think about it... when it's time to talk trade, there's usually plenty of skilled AND cheap relievers available.

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 03:08 PM
Right now, we're looking at 2 more years of Milton. I know everyone wants to get rid of him. Since we aren't contending next year, I think it's better to hope he can turn in a 4.75 ERA as a starter, and maybe at the deadline, someone will pick him up as a 5th starter. Yes, that's a longshot, but I think it's a bigger longshot to hope he can become a closer people will get excited about. Think about it... when it's time to talk trade, there's usually plenty of skilled AND cheap relievers available.

Actually, we could be looking at only 1 more year of Milton.

Eric Milton: signed 3-year deal thru 2007 season on 12/27/04- he receives a 4M signing bonus and salaries of 4M in 2005, 8.5M in 2006 and 9M in 2007- + he can opt out of the deal following the 2006 season and become a free agent Agent: Casey Close Service Time: 7.000

My guess is that if we stick him in the mop up role from spring training on, he'd be a lot more likely to opt out. Although, He probably wouldn't be able to find a 3 yr / $9M contract on the F.A. market, so I doubt he leaves. Maybe he can opt out and the Reds can "settle" on a figure for him to get the hell out of here?

RFS62
01-30-2006, 03:11 PM
I can think of about 9 million reasons that he'll never leave before his three years are up.

9 million reasons he'll never find anywhere else.

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 03:25 PM
It's a shame that teams don't put "incentives" for them in the deal. Like, if said pitcher has an ERA over 5.75 all years following that season are null and void, or if OPS against is over .950, the contract is voided and $1M in salary is due back to the team. I mean players get all kinds of crazy stupid incentives added in for All-Star appearances (when they have 4.50 ERA when elected). Teams should be able to do some jacking around, too.

Johnny Footstool
01-30-2006, 03:27 PM
Stats by pitch count:



Pitches AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pitches 1-15 116 35 38 6 0 8 11 5 0 17 0 1 .328 .355 .586 .942
Pitches 16-30 123 17 35 8 1 6 21 10 2 17 0 0 .285 .348 .512 .860
Pitches 31-45 112 13 28 4 1 1 13 9 2 20 3 1 .250 .312 .330 .642
Pitches 46-60 122 13 43 12 2 9 26 9 2 13 2 0 .352 .403 .705 1.108
Pitches 61-75 116 21 33 9 1 4 25 6 1 24 3 0 .284 .310 .483 .793
Pitches 76-90 105 25 33 9 1 8 17 8 0 17 2 1 .314 .360 .648 1.007
Pitches 91-105 70 14 24 7 1 4 15 5 0 8 1 0 .343 .377 .643 1.019


The only time he was any good at all was during Pitches 31-45. Odd, since it came in the middle of the game. Maybe that represents his first shot at the opposing 6-9 hitters.

If he could somehow harness the magic of Pitches 31-45, he could be effective on the mound. Unfortunately, I think Pitches 1-15 and 16-30 are more likely to be the norm.

I am in favor of moving him to the bullpen, though. Try him at closer, then stick him in mop-up duty. If he's effective, that's a big plus. If not, well, maybe he'll be so miserable he'll opt out of his final year.

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 03:29 PM
So we make sure he warms up and then throws 30 pitches before the 9th inning, and not more than 15 pitches in the 9th inning and we'll have ourselves a borderline closer. Sweeet.

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 03:30 PM
That chart is simply gut-wrenching to look at, BTW, Johnny.

Makes me want to puke.

Johnny Footstool
01-30-2006, 03:37 PM
So we make sure he warms up and then throws 30 pitches before the 9th inning, and not more than 15 pitches in the 9th inning and we'll have ourselves a borderline closer. Sweeet.

Looks like that's the only way. Work him like a dog in warmups, then yank him as soon as Pitch #45 leaves his hand.


That chart is simply gut-wrenching to look at, BTW, Johnny.

Makes me want to puke.

The sickest thing is, he actually pitched over 180 innings with numbers like that.

Marc D
01-30-2006, 04:36 PM
That chart is simply gut-wrenching to look at, BTW, Johnny.

Makes me want to puke.

I was thinking the same thing as I read it.

I know a player will never walk away from guaranteed millions but at what point does some level of pride take over and make them at least feel bad about stealing their paycheck? Am I the only one who would lose sleep if I were this bad at what I did for a living and the whole world, save Dan O, knew it?

M2
01-30-2006, 04:45 PM
I was thinking the same thing as I read it.

I know a player will never walk away from guaranteed millions but at what point does some level of pride take over and make them at least feel bad about stealing their paycheck? Am I the only one who would lose sleep if I were this bad at what I did for a living and the whole world, save Dan O, knew it?

Athletes always figure they're one adjustment away from being great. I remember thinking that if I got my cleats adjusted right that I had a shot at beating Leroy Burrell in the 100 meters. As it turned out, the difference between us was greater than the footwear.

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 04:46 PM
Stats by pitch count:



Pitches AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pitches 1-15 116 35 38 6 0 8 11 5 0 17 0 1 .328 .355 .586 .942
Pitches 16-30 123 17 35 8 1 6 21 10 2 17 0 0 .285 .348 .512 .860
Pitches 31-45 112 13 28 4 1 1 13 9 2 20 3 1 .250 .312 .330 .642
Pitches 46-60 122 13 43 12 2 9 26 9 2 13 2 0 .352 .403 .705 1.108
Pitches 61-75 116 21 33 9 1 4 25 6 1 24 3 0 .284 .310 .483 .793
Pitches 76-90 105 25 33 9 1 8 17 8 0 17 2 1 .314 .360 .648 1.007
Pitches 91-105 70 14 24 7 1 4 15 5 0 8 1 0 .343 .377 .643 1.019


The only time he was any good at all was during Pitches 31-45. Odd, since it came in the middle of the game. Maybe that represents his first shot at the opposing 6-9 hitters.



Pitches 31-45 were most likely in the 2nd inning, 3rd inning at the very best, but with numbers for pitches 1-30, I'd say more likely 2nd inning, and yeah, I bet those 14 pitches, a lot of the time, were to hitters in the 7, 8, and 9 spots of the batting order, whiich makes this even more gut wrenching.

Cyclone792
01-30-2006, 04:50 PM
Stats by pitch count:



Pitches AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Pitches 1-15 116 35 38 6 0 8 11 5 0 17 0 1 .328 .355 .586 .942
Pitches 16-30 123 17 35 8 1 6 21 10 2 17 0 0 .285 .348 .512 .860
Pitches 31-45 112 13 28 4 1 1 13 9 2 20 3 1 .250 .312 .330 .642
Pitches 46-60 122 13 43 12 2 9 26 9 2 13 2 0 .352 .403 .705 1.108
Pitches 61-75 116 21 33 9 1 4 25 6 1 24 3 0 .284 .310 .483 .793
Pitches 76-90 105 25 33 9 1 8 17 8 0 17 2 1 .314 .360 .648 1.007
Pitches 91-105 70 14 24 7 1 4 15 5 0 8 1 0 .343 .377 .643 1.019


The only time he was any good at all was during Pitches 31-45. Odd, since it came in the middle of the game. Maybe that represents his first shot at the opposing 6-9 hitters.

If he could somehow harness the magic of Pitches 31-45, he could be effective on the mound. Unfortunately, I think Pitches 1-15 and 16-30 are more likely to be the norm.

I am in favor of moving him to the bullpen, though. Try him at closer, then stick him in mop-up duty. If he's effective, that's a big plus. If not, well, maybe he'll be so miserable he'll opt out of his final year.

Thanks for the numbers, though my reaction to them, as RL already stated ... :barf: :barf: :barf: :scared:

Marc D
01-30-2006, 04:52 PM
Pitches 31-45 were most likely in the 2nd inning, 3rd inning at the very best, but with numbers for pitches 1-30, I'd say more likely 2nd inning, and yeah, I bet those 14 pitches, a lot of the time, were to hitters in the 7, 8, and 9 spots of the batting order, whiich makes this even more gut wrenching.


So bring him out of the pen to face the 7-8-9 type guys all year to pad his stats then ship him off.;)

KronoRed
01-30-2006, 04:59 PM
So bring him out of the pen to face the 7-8-9 type guys all year to pad his stats then ship him off.;)
Brilliant! :lol:


I still say we cut our losses and dump him outright or trade him to someone in the division and pay his salary

At least we can rake off him then :D

ochre
01-30-2006, 05:11 PM
I voted Milton to the bullpen back in August. Even posted his performance by inning pitched then too. ;)
(As of ~Aug 17th, 2005:



By Inning AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Inning 1-3 316 41 87 18 2 14 39 21 3 40 3 2 .275 .326 .478 .803
Inning 4-6 267 65 89 24 1 18 59 18 1 45 5 0 .333 .367 .633 1.000
Inning 7-9 31 7 10 2 0 3 5 2 0 6 0 0 .323 .364 .677 1.041)
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=812440&postcount=3
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=812440#post812440

Johnny Footstool
01-30-2006, 05:50 PM
Pitches 31-45 were most likely in the 2nd inning, 3rd inning at the very best, but with numbers for pitches 1-30, I'd say more likely 2nd inning, and yeah, I bet those 14 pitches, a lot of the time, were to hitters in the 7, 8, and 9 spots of the batting order, whiich makes this even more gut wrenching

Technically, the second inning would be near the middle of one of Milton's exquisite 4-inning starts.

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 05:53 PM
Technically, the second inning would be near the middle of one of Milton's exquisite 4-inning starts.

Point taken. Noted.
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. :laugh: ;)

Cyclone792
01-30-2006, 06:07 PM
The Eric Milton chart, per slot in the lineup!

AVG OBP SLG OPS Comment

Batting #1 .347 .415 .484 .899 Terrible
Batting #2 .289 .324 .443 .767 Well below average
Batting #3 .298 .337 .723 1.060 Words cannot describe
Batting #4 .351 .384 .691 1.075 Words cannot describe
Batting #5 .276 .340 .471 .811 Terrible
Batting #6 .322 .351 .517 .868 Terrible
Batting #7 .337 .391 .771 1.162 Words cannot describe
Batting #8 .293 .360 .453 .814 Terrible
Batting #9 .181 .179 .278 .457 Who knew?!

For reference, the average NL OPS was ~ .744 in 2005


So yea, Milton's only useful to bring in for one batter ... that tough lefty hitting in the #9 slot.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Marc D
01-30-2006, 06:57 PM
The Eric Milton chart, per slot in the lineup!

AVG OBP SLG OPS Comment

Batting #1 .347 .415 .484 .899 Terrible
Batting #2 .289 .324 .443 .767 Well below average
Batting #3 .298 .337 .723 1.060 Words cannot describe
Batting #4 .351 .384 .691 1.075 Words cannot describe
Batting #5 .276 .340 .471 .811 Terrible
Batting #6 .322 .351 .517 .868 Terrible
Batting #7 .337 .391 .771 1.162 Words cannot describe
Batting #8 .293 .360 .453 .814 Terrible
Batting #9 .181 .179 .278 .457 Who knew?!

For reference, the average NL OPS was ~ .744 in 2005


So yea, Milton's only useful to bring in for one batter ... that tough lefty hitting in the #9 slot.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:


That is simply amazing.

Maybe if he tried to throw right handed for a while.


EDIT*****

Just wonderd...if Milton goes to the pen will LOGGY stand for left handed-overpaid-god awful-gopher ball-guy?

Caveat Emperor
01-30-2006, 07:30 PM
Just wonderd...if Milton goes to the pen will LOGGY stand for left handed-overpaid-god awful-gopher ball-guy?

I thought it was LOOGY -- "Lousy and Overpaid. Oh God...Why?!"

REDREAD
01-30-2006, 08:10 PM
So bring him out of the pen to face the 7-8-9 type guys all year to pad his stats then ship him off.;)


I actually did that in a computer simulation game. I was desparate for depth in pitching, so I signed a horrible guy, let him pitch to the bottom of the order, always let him start with no one one on base. If he got in trouble, I gave him the quick yank.. I was able to milk him for a couple outs usually.

The funny thing is, he ended up with a sub 1.00 ERA and one of the AI players gave him a huge multiyear deal :laugh: AI wasn't smart enough to look beyond the stats.