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redsfan30
01-30-2006, 04:28 PM
Monday, January 30, 2006
Closing in?

I mentioned in my notebook today that the Reds are looking for a veteran middle-relief type, with ex-Pirates Rick White and Brian Meadows possibly in the mix.

Just talked to Dan Horwits, the agent for both guys, and he said he spoke with Brad Kullman a couple times over the weekend and plans to do so again today. It sounds like White is the more likely candidate at this point. He lives up the road in Springfield and has been open about his desire to play for the Reds.

"We’ve been discussing White for quite some time," Horwits said. "I think there’s mutual interest there and we’ll see if we can’t get that done."

Discussions involving Meadows have been on and off, he said, but have picked up lately.

"Both of them are down the line with some other clubs," said Horwits, "but they’re still keeping the Reds in the mix because of their interest in going there."
Any thoughts?

Johnny Footstool
01-30-2006, 04:44 PM
Ugh.

37 years old, disgustingly low K/9, ugly 1.5 K/BB. Got ERA lucky last year after giving up over a dozen HR in roughly 70 IPs in both 2003 and 2004.

The "other clubs" interested in this guy must be AAA, the Shriners, and possibly NAMBLA.

Aronchis
01-30-2006, 04:47 PM
Unless you are going to add a big talent, the bullpen is done this year. They already have their "Meadow's" and "White's". Move on.

RedsManRick
01-30-2006, 04:51 PM
This is the exact problem that plagued Bowden -- an apparent lack of understanding regarding the concept of replacement level talent. If he gets more than 400K, it's wasted money. He doesn't miss bats, doesn't have great control, isn't more effective against lefties or righties, and with the exception of his year in Chavez Ravine, is homer pone.

The only use for a guy like this is to have somebody in the up role who's not a young guy with confidence concerns.

Still,
Weathers
Mercker
Wagner
Coffee
Hammond
Belisle/Wilson
Shackleford
Simpson

Where is there room for this guy?

lollipopcurve
01-30-2006, 04:55 PM
I love it. DanO transacting from the crypt brings in another RH reliever.

Do not resist. Rick White is a Reds pitcher. He just is.

redsfan30
01-30-2006, 04:56 PM
If you look at his stats, he's never had back-to-back good seasons. Last season was a good one (relatively speaking). The back of his baseball card indicates that this will be a bad one.

Brian Meadows is just bad.

I'd pass on both.

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 04:59 PM
I wonder if Dan Horwits has a day job.

Chip R
01-30-2006, 05:17 PM
I wonder if Dan Horwits has a day job.

I think his real name is Lionel Hutz.

Doc. Scott
01-30-2006, 05:28 PM
Brad Kullman said specifically that Brian Meadows was not on his way in. Rick White wouldn't be quite as bad, but he also wouldn't exactly be in a major role. It'd be more like an 11th-pitcher sort of thing, pitching the fourth, fifth and sixth in the Milton/Wilson starts.

traderumor
01-30-2006, 05:30 PM
Didn't Rick White used to be Rico Blanco? :D

membengal
01-30-2006, 05:43 PM
Is Mike LaCoss not available?

Reds Fanatic
01-30-2006, 05:52 PM
His stats are horrible from last year:

vs. Right - .305 AVG and .762 OPS
vs. Left - .328 AVG and .815 OPS

Redsland
01-30-2006, 05:54 PM
Hal has floated Rick White rumors in three of the last four years. Perhaps the "Springfield native" will grant his wish.

KronoRed
01-30-2006, 05:58 PM
His stats are horrible from last year:

vs. Right - .305 AVG and .762 OPS
vs. Left - .328 AVG and .815 OPS
He fits right in.

Unassisted
01-30-2006, 06:02 PM
Hal has floated Rick White rumors in three of the last four years. Perhaps the "Springfield native" will grant his wish.Can a Jeff Shaw rumor be far behind? ;)

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 06:04 PM
Can a Jeff Shaw rumor be far behind? ;)

I wonder if he'll take a hometown discount? ;)

Heath
01-30-2006, 06:10 PM
Can a Jeff Shaw rumor be far behind? ;)

Where's Dave Burba these days?

Red Leader
01-30-2006, 06:11 PM
Where's Dave Burba these days?

Incredibly, he's already signed. With the Mariners, I believe.

RedFanAlways1966
01-30-2006, 06:14 PM
Isn't Rick White a "non-union member scab" from the the last strike?

With all the good things that the Union has done for the game lately, I might like Mr. White.

MattyHo4Life
01-30-2006, 06:16 PM
His stats are horrible from last year:

vs. Right - .305 AVG and .762 OPS
vs. Left - .328 AVG and .815 OPS


His whole career has been horrible except for his half season with the Cardinals in 2002.

captainmorgan07
01-30-2006, 06:38 PM
he had some pretty good outting with the pirates last year i saw him first hand since im in there area but when he was bad he was bad

Boss-Hog
01-30-2006, 07:02 PM
Isn't Rick White a "non-union member scab" from the the last strike?

With all the good things that the Union has done for the game lately, I might like Mr. White.
I think that's probably Rick Reed you have in mind.

RedFanAlways1966
01-30-2006, 08:36 PM
I think that's probably Rick Reed you have in mind.

DUH!! Thanks, Boss.

gm
01-30-2006, 08:39 PM
Isn't Rick White a "non-union member scab" from the the last strike?

With all the good things that the Union has done for the game lately, I might like Mr. White.

You may be thinking of Rick Reed?

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/R/Reed_Rick.stm

StillFunkyB
01-30-2006, 08:48 PM
More garbage to go with th rest of the trash, yay.

REDREAD
01-30-2006, 09:03 PM
.

Still,
Weathers
Mercker
Wagner
Coffee
Hammond
Belisle/Wilson
Shackleford
Simpson

Where is there room for this guy?

I'm not saying White is the answer, but it wouldn't hurt to add another reliever to the bullpen. Even if you add Standbridge to your list.

I see really only Weathers and Mercker as being pretty reliable. Beslisle and Wagner will probably be fine, but it would be nice to have the luxury of making all these youngsters earn spots on the roster, instead of giving it to them by default.

More depth in the pen gives us the option of dealing some bullpen arms in June/July as well.

MattyHo4Life
01-30-2006, 09:41 PM
I see really only Weathers and Mercker as being pretty reliable.

Then they are still the only reliable relievers, because Rick White is not reliable. Adding relievers is one thing, but adding a bad pitcher is another thing.

Kc61
01-30-2006, 10:07 PM
I'm not saying White is the answer, but it wouldn't hurt to add another reliever to the bullpen. Even if you add Standbridge to your list.

I see really only Weathers and Mercker as being pretty reliable. Beslisle and Wagner will probably be fine, but it would be nice to have the luxury of making all these youngsters earn spots on the roster, instead of giving it to them by default.

More depth in the pen gives us the option of dealing some bullpen arms in June/July as well.

Can't get too excited if Reds acquire Rick White. But I agree that no harm is done bringing in another veteran reliever, particularly one coming off a good season.

I disagree with the comment that "Belisle and Wagner will probably be fine." Wagner's ERA was 6.11 last year, 4.70 the year before. Belisle was ok in 2005 but faded badly at the end. These guys have talent but are not reliable relievers at this point.

The Reds obviously don't have a lot of confidence in their young relievers. Coffey, Wagner, Belisle, Shackelford are all question marks (Shackelford was the best of all of them last year, after a bad AAA start.) I think this explains acquisitions like (potentially) White.

redsfan30
01-30-2006, 10:53 PM
I have a pretty good source that just called me and said that White agreed to a one year deal with the Reds worth $600,000. I believe there are performance bonuses that could have him earning $975,000. He agreed at 8:30 tonight.

Edit: I'm not sure if the $975,000 is incentives for this year or a team option at that price for the 2007 season.

redsfan30
01-30-2006, 11:29 PM
Follow up to my original post. Assuming Rick passes his physical in the morning, the deal will be announced afterwards. It is a straight one year deal (no options) worth $600,000. He can make up to $975,000 in incentives.

It was down to the Braves and the Reds.

Should be made official in the morning.

Redsland
01-30-2006, 11:38 PM
Minor league deal with invite to ST, or big league/40-man deal?

redsfan30
01-30-2006, 11:40 PM
Can't say for sure, but I think it's a big league deal.

Redsland
01-30-2006, 11:44 PM
Sounds like it. I can't remember hearing about a minor league deal with incentives (beyond split contracts, of course).

He's just so...equivalent to what's already there. Give me a 24-year-old, or a flamethrower, or...something.

Falls City Beer
01-30-2006, 11:48 PM
Looks like this is going to be a cobbled-together season.

redsfan30
01-30-2006, 11:49 PM
Sounds like it. I can't remember hearing about a minor league deal with incentives (beyond split contracts, of course).

He's just so...equivalent to what's already there. Give me a 24-year-old, or a flamethrower, or...something.
Like I said earlier in this thread, the one thing that worries me is that Rick has never put together 2 good seasons in a row.

Since it's a pretty affordable price I think I can live with it though. And if he performs well enough for the incentives to kick in, I think he'd be a bargain at still under $1 million.

Heath
01-30-2006, 11:51 PM
I'd rather have Phillippe Valiquette hitting the beer guy in section 109 with a 98 mph fastball then Rick White tossing powdered sugar donuts up there.

I'd pass. But, I guess DanO's binder is still running around.

Look at it this way, he could go all Todd Jones on us. You never know.

Bill
01-31-2006, 12:45 AM
So you guys are still Kullman supporters?

He learned from the best.

Dom Heffner
01-31-2006, 12:53 AM
He lives up the road in Springfield and has been open about his desire to play for the Reds.


For years, I lived up the road in Amelia- and no one ever called. At some point, I would be just as effective. I could easily give up that many homeruns in a season. Easily. :)

Topcat
01-31-2006, 03:21 AM
Shouldnt the very past position in the BP go to some kid developing ? There is no need for a 37 yr old journeyman addition.

Kc61
01-31-2006, 03:57 AM
Wonder who gets knocked off the 40-man roster?

BoydsOfSummer
01-31-2006, 04:29 AM
Vote Womack.

KronoRed
01-31-2006, 07:57 AM
Vote Womack.
Seems like the "vet" disease still reeks, I'd say it's Wagner

MattyHo4Life
01-31-2006, 08:55 AM
Like I said earlier in this thread, the one thing that worries me is that Rick has never put together 2 good seasons in a row.

Since it's a pretty affordable price I think I can live with it though. And if he performs well enough for the incentives to kick in, I think he'd be a bargain at still under $1 million.

The incentives are based on how many games he appears in right? I don't think they're allowed to base the incentives on his performance. He can make a lot of appearances and still stink. Rick white is old, and isn't what the Reds need.

Danny Serafini
01-31-2006, 10:06 AM
This signing is so Ben Weberesque. Let's hope this one works out a little better.

Danny Serafini
01-31-2006, 10:10 AM
Wonder who gets knocked off the 40-man roster?

I'm going to guess Jung Bong gets the boot. Standridge is a possibility, and Sardinha's cleared waivers before so he could likely do it again, they're my second and third picks.

lollipopcurve
01-31-2006, 10:20 AM
Wonder how the Kullmanites like this signing.

REDREAD
01-31-2006, 10:30 AM
Can't get too excited if Reds acquire Rick White. But I agree that no harm is done bringing in another veteran reliever, particularly one coming off a good season.

I disagree with the comment that "Belisle and Wagner will probably be fine." Wagner's ERA was 6.11 last year, 4.70 the year before. Belisle was ok in 2005 but faded badly at the end. These guys have talent but are not reliable relievers at this point.

The Reds obviously don't have a lot of confidence in their young relievers. Coffey, Wagner, Belisle, Shackelford are all question marks (Shackelford was the best of all of them last year, after a bad AAA start.) I think this explains acquisitions like (potentially) White.

I agree with you. I know I was being generous with Belisle and Wagner. They are definite quesition marks.

I know White is mediocre at best and likely below average, but I would not complain if the Reds signed him. We need depth, and the market for the good relievers has skyrocketed. Considering this coming year is a rebuilding year, signing a guy like White so that you have the option to keep a youngster in the minors is not so bad. White would likely come at less than a million. Sure, he's a short term bandaid and isn't going to really help us win games, but he might prevent a youngster from being shelled. Note, I am assuming that not all the young relievers the Reds have are ML ready.. A fair assumption, IMO. There's no reason to believe that they'll "develop" faster at the ML level. Wagner really hasn't responded to being thrown in the fire

I hope we could get someone better than White, but we could use the added depth. Hammond serves the same purpose, IMO.

Johnny Footstool
01-31-2006, 10:37 AM
I hope we could get someone better than White, but we could use the added depth. Hammond serves the same purpose, IMO.

Depth is only a plus if it is quality depth. Having 12 pitchers who suck is no better than having 10 pitchers who suck.

gonelong
01-31-2006, 11:13 AM
Wonder how the Kullmanites like this signing.

Blech.

GL

Kc61
01-31-2006, 11:19 AM
Depth is only a plus if it is quality depth. Having 12 pitchers who suck is no better than having 10 pitchers who suck.

Well, another way to look at it is that a team with an ERA over 5 may actually improve by adding pitchers who are average or even slightly below average. When the team ERA is over 5, adding some 4.00 to 4.50 ERAs may actually help.

Nobody was excited about adding Weathers and Mercker but they turned out to be the team's most reliable relievers, by far.

The sad fact is that the Reds pitching is so incredibly bad that they may help themselves by adding "decent" veteran relievers who, at least, have had some major league success. I'm sure there will still be a couple of spots for young relievers who do well in the spring.

redsfan30
01-31-2006, 11:20 AM
Wonder how the Kullmanites like this signing.
It's (if my information is correct) only a $600,000 deal. It's not like we're breaking the bank for him. And let's be honest....as long as Coffey and Wagner are still in the pen, he's not getting in the way of any true potential. If he takes either one of thier spots, then I have a problem with it.

Against my better judgement, the more I think about this the more I'm somewhat ok with it. It's a low-risk, high reward thing in my opinion.

lollipopcurve
01-31-2006, 11:25 AM
It's a low-risk, high reward thing in my opinion.

Not sure I see the high reward in 37-year-old Rick White.

My guess is that they're concerned about Weathers' injured finger. And I'd guess they are looking at Belisle as a starter.

TRF
01-31-2006, 11:30 AM
It's 600K to a guy coming off a fluke season. His GB/FB ratio was a clear aberration compared to his career.last year was the first time he posted an era below for since 2001.

I see the need for bolstering the pen. I'm not sure this is bolstering.

redsfan30
01-31-2006, 11:30 AM
Not sure I see the high reward in 37-year-old Rick White.
If Rick pitches to his career norms, he's worth $600,000. This would be a Rich Aurilia-esque signing. Not too many people are going to like it, but if he produces, he's worth his low salary.

Boss-Hog
01-31-2006, 11:40 AM
I'd hardly call Rick White a high-reward acquisition. IMO, in a best case scenerio, he puts up similar numbers of David Weathers did last year, although IIRC, Weathers has a better track record (as a reliever) than White does. As someone who wouldn't mind Kullman as GM, I'm disappointed with this move. If true, it's not that I don't like it because we wasted a lot of money, it's because I don't see signing a 37 year old career mediocre reliever as a move with much potential upside. It just seems like a move O'Brien would have made, at least to me.

redsfan30
01-31-2006, 11:46 AM
I'd hardly call Rick White a high-reward acquisition. IMO, in a best case scenerio, he puts up similar numbers of David Weathers did last year, although IIRC, Weathers has a better track record (as a reliever) than White does. As someone who wouldn't mind Kullman as GM, I'm disappointed with this move. If true, it's not that I don't like it because we wasted a lot of money, it's because I don't see this having much potential upside. It just seems like a move O'Brien would have made, at least to me.
I'm basing my assessment of him being a high reward guy on his salary. I am on record as saying I would not sign White (and believe me, I still have those feelings). I would be dead-set against it if he were making anything over $1 million. If he puts up numbers similar to David Weathers did last year, that's worth $600,000 in my opinion.

And like I said earlier, as long as he doesn't block Wagner or Coffey or some other young surprise in camp I can deal with it. If he blocks them then it's a big time problem.

This isn't my favorite signing in the world. But I can maybe talk myself into being ok with it, at least at the start.

MattyHo4Life
01-31-2006, 11:57 AM
I'm basing my assessment of him being a high reward guy on his salary. I am on record as saying I would not sign White (and believe me, I still have those feelings). I would be dead-set against it if he were making anything over $1 million.

I wouldn't consider it a horrible signing since it's not a big contract. I do think it's an unnecessary signing. It doesn't make much sense to bring in a 37 year old below average journeyman for any cost with new ownership coming in. I just think it sends the wrong message. This just looks like more of the same.

Boss-Hog
01-31-2006, 12:00 PM
I think he's David Weathers circa 2005 in a best case scenario, and that's far from a certainty. IMO, we already have enough mediocre (or worse) slop-throwing veteran relievers.

redsfan30
01-31-2006, 12:07 PM
I can't argue any of what you guys are saying.

I'm just trying to dig down and find a positive spin on things.

RedsManRick
01-31-2006, 12:14 PM
My problem with is is this; somebody who should be in the bullpen and who has greater potential than White won't be there. The only arguement I see that makes sense is that it gives us a live body to fill a spot in July when Weathers and Mercker become valuable trading assets. If signing White lets us deal Weathers without using the options of a young guy who isn't ready, then it make sense. Talent/production wise, he's right there with Tony Womack -- a guy who could be useful if he performs at the top of his ability.

Krusty
01-31-2006, 12:16 PM
Three pages on a journeyman reliever? Man, you know we are suffering from a slow offseason.

KronoRed
01-31-2006, 12:25 PM
I'm just trying to dig down and find a positive spin on things.
He's not Jimmy Anderson :D

Barbarossa
01-31-2006, 12:40 PM
What happens to guys like Hancock and Hudson? Aren't they out of options? I'm sure Wagner has options and can start the season in AAA, but what about the rest of our young pen? Will we lose a young pitcher for the pleasure of sending Rick White to the mound? Inquireing minds would like to know.

Danny Serafini
01-31-2006, 12:45 PM
Hancock already cleared waivers and was dropped from the 40 man.

Doc. Scott
01-31-2006, 12:59 PM
And honestly, I'd rather have Hancock in the bullpen than White. Rick may look like Ben Weber because they're both veterans and all, but Weber was really good for several years and has a career 118 ERA+, even after having bad/injured 2004 and 2005 seasons. White is at 107, but he's coming off a very hit-lucky 115 in 2005 and two poor seasons before that. He may have escaped only allowing four homers in 75 IP in '05, but got torched for 15 in 78.1 IP in 2004 and 13 in 67 in 2003.

I don't think it'll make that much of a difference overall, but if you can get a younger guy some face time, why wouldn't you?

MattyHo4Life
01-31-2006, 01:52 PM
And honestly, I'd rather have Hancock in the bullpen than White.

I would too, I don't get why the Reds would prefer White over Hancock in the pen.

Redsland
01-31-2006, 02:24 PM
Well, at 37-52, it isn't because he knows how to win.

Maybe he's scrappy.

REDREAD
01-31-2006, 03:00 PM
Depth is only a plus if it is quality depth. Having 12 pitchers who suck is no better than having 10 pitchers who suck.

True, but I guess I'd rather have White sucking than a youngster failing and getting set backwards in development and eating up service time.

We've already wasted about 2 years of Ryan Wagner's cheap time by calling him up too early.

White at 600k or so as bullpen filler isn't so bad. We can't afford to shell out 4 million for a decent FA reliever.

I'm disappointed that our "big" acquisions this year have been Womack, Williams, White, and Aurillia too. Even though they aren't great depth, unfortunately they were needs that had to be filled because the farm system is barren.

redsfan30
01-31-2006, 03:09 PM
I'm wondering what the holdup is with announcing this deal. My source last night told me it would be announced sometime today. The deal had been agreed upon and White would be going down to Cincinnati to get his physical.

MattyHo4Life
01-31-2006, 03:24 PM
True, but I guess I'd rather have White sucking than a youngster failing and getting set backwards in development and eating up service time.

Josch Hancock is 27. What's the point in keeping him in the minors any longer? I'd take him over White regardless of age anyways. The Age difference is just another reason to choose Hancock. I can understand why you would be worried about Wagner's development, but not Hancock.

Kc61
01-31-2006, 04:06 PM
Josch Hancock is 27. What's the point in keeping him in the minors any longer? I'd take him over White regardless of age anyways. The Age difference is just another reason to choose Hancock. I can understand why you would be worried about Wagner's development, but not Hancock.

Hancock was hurt virtually the entire 2005. Perhaps Reds don't think he is healthy.

MattyHo4Life
01-31-2006, 04:09 PM
Hancock was hurt virtually the entire 2005. Perhaps Reds don't think he is healthy.

I don't know, but he seemed healthy the last month of the season.

GAC
01-31-2006, 05:02 PM
This will make my brother and his wife happy. They are good friends and neighbors. We should get some free tix this year. :thumbup:

REDREAD
01-31-2006, 05:40 PM
Josch Hancock is 27. What's the point in keeping him in the minors any longer? I'd take him over White regardless of age anyways. The Age difference is just another reason to choose Hancock. I can understand why you would be worried about Wagner's development, but not Hancock.

You have a point there. I'm not a big fan of Hancock. I concede that White might be just as bad or worse.

We might need them both though, especially if we want the option of trading Weathers or Mercker.

Caseyfan21
01-31-2006, 06:05 PM
This will make my brother and his wife happy. They are good friends and neighbors. We should get some free tix this year. :thumbup:

I have a close friend here at college who's father is also friends with him. They got tickets last year when my friends favorite team, the Giants, were in Pittsburgh. I'm hoping maybe I can work some free tickets out of this for my friend and I.

redsfan30
01-31-2006, 07:39 PM
It's official. Rick White signed a 1 year, $600,000 deal this afternoon.

KronoRed
01-31-2006, 07:53 PM
Waste of 600k

MikeS21
01-31-2006, 08:11 PM
This will make my brother and his wife happy. They are good friends and neighbors. We should get some free tix this year. :thumbup:

I have a close friend here at college who's father is also friends with him. They got tickets last year when my friends favorite team, the Giants, were in Pittsburgh. I'm hoping maybe I can work some free tickets out of this for my friend and I.
I know no one who is friends with Rick White ... but I'd take free tickets! :evil:

Raisor
01-31-2006, 08:31 PM
Maybe they were trying to re-re-re-sign GABE White, and called the wrong guy.

I still expect Scott Sullivan, Gabe White, and Jon Nunnlley to be on the 25 man roster this year.

Don't let me down Reds!

GAC
01-31-2006, 09:26 PM
I know no one who is friends with Rick White ... but I'd take free tickets! :evil:

:lol:

I've been over to his house a couple times with my brother. Rick's wife and my brother's wife are best of friends.

MikeS21
01-31-2006, 11:18 PM
:lol:

I've been over to his house a couple times with my brother. Rick's wife and my brother's wife are best of friends.
You get the women-folk involved and things will happen. I just hope you were real nice to your sister-in-law over Christmas. :p:

GAC
02-01-2006, 10:08 AM
:lol:

I've been over to his house a couple times with my brother. Rick's wife and my brother's wife are best of friends.

When Rick was playing in Chicago a couple years back they rented a condo with a really nice guest house. Rick, obviously, was gone alot, so his wife had my brother and wife come up and stay at the guest house off and on when they could get away. Me?.... I couldn't get away. :bang: