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TOBTTReds
01-31-2006, 06:32 PM
Per Marc:


Veteran reliever Rick White has agreed to a one-year, $600,000 major league contract with the Reds. He also could earn up to $300,000 more in performance bonuses.

White, 37, is a lifelong resident of Springfield, Ohio. He made 71 appearances for the Pirates last year, going 4-7 with a 3.72 ERA and picking up a couple of saves. He has 520 career big-league appearances for the Pirates, Devil Rays, Mets, Rockies, Cardinals, White Sox, Astros and Indians.

The Reds will have to make a move to free up a slot on the 40-man roster. Could this be the end of the Bubba Nelson era?

Posted this thinking it would get lost in the other thread

RedsManRick
01-31-2006, 06:49 PM
So who do we lose from the 12 man staff? Of course, usually we start off with 11 in April, but let's assume that's Wilson's spot.

Locks:
1 Harang
2 Claussen
3 Milton
4 Williams
5 Wilson (if healthy)
6 Belisle
7 Weathers
8 Mercker
9 Hammond
10 White

Should be's :
11 Coffey
12 Hudson
13 Wagner
14 Shackleford

Maybes
15 Simpson
16 Hancock
17 Standridge
18 Burns

Hmmm... I'd say there's somewhere in the neighborhood of a 0% chance that all 4 of Weathers, Mercker, Hammond, and White are around come August 1st.

If I'd had to guess, Hudson stays up with a good spring, as does the best of Wagner, Coffey, and Shackleford. The other two start the season in AAA. I must say, it's the most depth we've had in quite a while. Spread the suckage around.

Patrick Bateman
01-31-2006, 06:59 PM
I think Coffey and Wagner need to be on this team. We need these guys to be good this year to have a reasonable bullpen.

GADawg
01-31-2006, 07:07 PM
Ricky Stone...part deux

redsfan30
01-31-2006, 07:13 PM
I think it'll shake out this way to start things off:

1. Harang
2. Claussen
3. Milton
4. Wilson (I think he'll be ready to go)
5. Williams

Mercker
Weathers
Hammond
White
Belisle
Coffey
Wagner

Falls City Beer
01-31-2006, 07:19 PM
Ricky Stone...part deux

Yeah.

I hope he's cut very early in the season, but I doubt that's going to happen.

I can understand the need for bodies to pitch against the wall in the hopes of one of them sticking, but let's be serious--this guy's never going to be anything more than mop-up. Not that the Reds don't need that, but they need better stuff more.

flyer85
01-31-2006, 07:27 PM
Yeah.

I hope he's cut very early in the season, but I doubt that's going to happen.
hell, they gave him a major league deal.

Barbarossa
01-31-2006, 08:07 PM
I really don't understand this signing. You don't suppose that the Reds have a possible trade in progress, in which they send one of Mercker/Weathers plus one of our OF's for a starting pitcher? The Dodgers have plenty of good young pitching, plus a surplus 1st baseman. Naw, this is probably something that was in one of those pretty binders that DanO left in his desk. Too bad they didn't throw all those binders out.

TheBigLebowski
01-31-2006, 09:32 PM
This is the final piece.

We have done it.

We are officially a 70 win team.

LINEDRIVER
01-31-2006, 10:49 PM
Is Rick White really Brad Kullman's cousin?

NC Reds
01-31-2006, 10:53 PM
Sadly, our 2005 bullpen was full of guys who would envy that 3.72 ERA. I can't poor-mouth this signing. It did not break the budget.

How about signing Dunn and Lopez?????

Reds1
01-31-2006, 11:00 PM
I think it'll shake out this way to start things off:

1. Harang
2. Claussen
3. Milton
4. Wilson (I think he'll be ready to go)
5. Williams

Mercker
Weathers
Hammond
White
Belisle
Coffey
Wagner

I'm pretty sure I last heard Wilson will not be ready. I would say Hudson gets his spot, but you are close.

On the trade. I can't say it was a bad one as his numbers last year kill many of our BP players, but I can't say I really understand this. He's 37 and I don't want to see a Coffey, Belise, or Hudson spot taken by this guy. We'll see if something else goes down.

Redsland
01-31-2006, 11:08 PM
I really don't understand this signing. You don't suppose that the Reds have a possible trade in progress, in which they send one of Mercker/Weathers plus one of our OF's for a starting pitcher? The Dodgers have plenty of good young pitching, plus a surplus 1st baseman. Naw, this is probably something that was in one of those pretty binders that DanO left in his desk. Too bad they didn't throw all those binders out.
That's what it smells like. Either that or Coffey and/or Wagner are bound for greener pastures.

MartyFan
01-31-2006, 11:08 PM
Barbarossa...I was thinking the same thing about a potential trade...it would be very creative.

Neo
01-31-2006, 11:31 PM
I heard somewhere that Belisle will fill in for Wilson until he is healthy.

Krusty
02-01-2006, 12:28 AM
Would love to see the Reds get Contreras from the White Sox during spring training. They might be interested in a lefty specialist like Kent Mercker. Of course the Reds would probably need to add a couple of young prospects to the deal. Maybe LHP Phil Dumatrait along with someone else would work?

SteelSD
02-01-2006, 01:34 AM
Wow. What a waste of over half a million dollars.

His OBP Against over the past three seasons has been .340, .356, and .374.

You'd actually have to be mentally challenged to sign this guy to anything but a minor league ST invite deal.

KronoRed
02-01-2006, 07:00 AM
Like Womack he was good once a few years ago so we think he'll repeat ;)

flyer85
02-01-2006, 08:29 AM
i'd say the ERAs wel above in 2003 and 2004 are much better indicators of an expected level of performance. They will get nothing from White that they couldn't get from Hancock, Simpson, etc.

The organization can't seem to shake the obsession with less than mediocrity. Hopefully it is just a hangover from DanO but I doubt it.

Ravenlord
02-01-2006, 08:36 AM
i think the logic is to try to get a middling out of White should he still have a deceptively good ERA at the deadline. i wouldn't be surprised in the least if Narron is insturcted (assuming Kullman's in charge) to only use White in low pressure and bottom of the order situations until June.

REDREAD
02-01-2006, 09:37 AM
Well, the minimum major league salary is something like 350k.. so we're really only wasting 250k if White is a total washout. Pretty low risk.

I just can't see people grinding their teeth worrying about Hudson, Hancock, and the young guys. If White is as bad as you guys think, he shouldn't earn a roster spot. There's no doubt in my mind that White will be released if he does implode and suck. Maybe not in the first week of the season (as many wanted to do with Weathers last year), but if they ate Jimmeniz's and Graves' contract, I'm sure they'll have no problem cutting White.

This is a no risk deal. Worst case, White gets cut in spring training and the Reds are out 250k. I'm sure White had other ML offers out there, so the Reds had to ante up a ML deal to get him. As bad as the bullpen was last year (and it was bad and well used), why complain about getting some depth.

I know veteran presence is considered overrated by some, but sometimes the young pitchers do learn stuff from the older vets .

I just don't see how the Reds can lose on this. Worst case, they're out 250k. Best case, it frees up someone in the pen to be traded. The Reds have a serious talent deficit in pitching. No harm in doing a mini-cattle call and seeing what White has.

Sea Ray
02-01-2006, 10:32 AM
hell, they gave him a major league deal.

Yeah, that's the part I don't understand. Why a major league deal? If they like the guy, fine. Give him a minor league deal with an invite to ST. How many other teams in baseball would be willing to give him a major league deal???

Kc61
02-01-2006, 10:34 AM
Hate to say it, but Rick White possibly could lead the Reds in pitching appearances next year. He is an extreme ground ball pitcher who can pitch every day. Obviously, he is not a top reliever, but with this staff he could turn out to be a "mainstay."

While one year's numbers don't always tell the story, the "young" Reds pitchers didn't exactly set the world on fire last year. Hudson and Wagner had over 6 ERAs, Hancock was hurt all year, Belisle showed signs but faded, Coffey improved but he probably wasn't ready. Only Shackelford was consistent and he is far from a sure thing based on minor league performance.

With Weathers, Mercker, Hammond and White, that leaves 3 relief spots for young pitchers. In addition, if Wilson is DLd early, Belisle will probably get some starts. The young guys will have to perform in the spring to fill these slots; those who don't will start at AAA (where they probably belong).

Sea Ray
02-01-2006, 10:37 AM
Sadly, our 2005 bullpen was full of guys who would envy that 3.72 ERA. I can't poor-mouth this signing. It did not break the budget.

How about signing Dunn and Lopez?????

Do you really think he'll have a sub 4 ERA pitching in Cincinnati? That's what scouting and evaluating talent is all about. They can't take his last year's stats and plug them into 2006 in Cincinnati. Exhibit A: Eric Milton

If Kullman wants the GM job this was not a good move to put on his resume IMO.

MattyHo4Life
02-01-2006, 11:30 AM
Do you really think he'll have a sub 4 ERA pitching in Cincinnati? That's what scouting and evaluating talent is all about. They can't take his last year's stats and plug them into 2006 in Cincinnati. Exhibit A: Eric Milton

Exactly, you can't just look at his stats from one year, and expect him to be the same the next year. It's that mindset that gets you players like Tony Womack. Rick White is a year older now, and he wasn't very good when he was young.

Sea Ray
02-01-2006, 12:10 PM
Well, the minimum major league salary is something like 350k.. so we're really only wasting 250k if White is a total washout. Pretty low risk.

I just can't see people grinding their teeth worrying about Hudson, Hancock, and the young guys. If White is as bad as you guys think, he shouldn't earn a roster spot. There's no doubt in my mind that White will be released if he does implode and suck. Maybe not in the first week of the season (as many wanted to do with Weathers last year), but if they ate Jimmeniz's and Graves' contract, I'm sure they'll have no problem cutting White.

This is a no risk deal. Worst case, White gets cut in spring training and the Reds are out 250k. I'm sure White had other ML offers out there, so the Reds had to ante up a ML deal to get him. As bad as the bullpen was last year (and it was bad and well used), why complain about getting some depth.

I know veteran presence is considered overrated by some, but sometimes the young pitchers do learn stuff from the older vets .

I just don't see how the Reds can lose on this. Worst case, they're out 250k. Best case, it frees up someone in the pen to be traded. The Reds have a serious talent deficit in pitching. No harm in doing a mini-cattle call and seeing what White has.

No, the risk is much greater. First of all if they cut him, they're out $600K, not $250. If he's signed a minor league deal, it'll be for less than the major league minimum and it will not be guaranteed. This signing will also cost them a player, maybe Bubba who knows. Such a move would not be necessary if he was signed a minor league deal. And finally, if he was signed to a minor league deal you could send him to Louisville and provide depth there. If needed you can call him up. This obligates them to keep him in the majors which limits their options.

Plain and simple, he's not worth a major league contract. Right handed mop up bullpen guys are not worth major league contracts. They are a dime a dozen and unfortunately they tend to greatly populate pitching staffs like our Reds.

registerthis
02-01-2006, 01:25 PM
Exactly, you can't just look at his stats from one year, and expect him to be the same the next year. It's that mindset that gets you players like Tony Womack.

So, it's wishful thinking to hope that Womack will bat .220 next year?

Good grief, I hope DanO didn't bring in Womack because he looked at his stats last year and though "Hot dang, we got ourselves a real humdinger here...if only he could replicate those numbers for us, think of the possibilities."

RedsManRick
02-01-2006, 01:35 PM
No, the risk is much greater. First of all if they cut him, they're out $600K, not $250. If he's signed a minor league deal, it'll be for less than the major league minimum and it will not be guaranteed. This signing will also cost them a player, maybe Bubba who knows. Such a move would not be necessary if he was signed a minor league deal. And finally, if he was signed to a minor league deal you could send him to Louisville and provide depth there. If needed you can call him up. This obligates them to keep him in the majors which limits their options.

Plain and simple, he's not worth a major league contract. Right handed mop up bullpen guys are not worth major league contracts. They are a dime a dozen and unfortunately they tend to greatly populate pitching staffs like our Reds.


But you have to be paying at least 25 guys the minimum. So if there was a AAA guy in his place on the roster, he'd be getting that 317K instead of White. Of course, the problem comes when you're paying somebody 500K to pitch in AAA and White is taking his spot.

Of course, if you do outright cut him, you have to pay him 600K and pay the guy taking his spot, so you are out the full amount.

MattyHo4Life
02-01-2006, 01:39 PM
So, it's wishful thinking to hope that Womack will bat .220 next year?

Good grief, I hope DanO didn't bring in Womack because he looked at his stats last year and though "Hot dang, we got ourselves a real humdinger here...if only he could replicate those numbers for us, think of the possibilities."

I didn't say "last" year. I said "one year". To be perfectly honest, I was talking more about the Yankees signing Womack last year after the season he had with the Cardinals. It still applies to the Reds signing him though. It's the mindset that a player had one good year, and he'll eventually have another.

flyer85
02-01-2006, 01:43 PM
So, it's wishful thinking to hope that Womack will bat .220 next year?that would be great because he won't play.

The scary part is that WOmack might hit .280 and Narron play him. Even though he will still be worthless because the OBP will be .310 and higher than his SLG%.

Sea Ray
02-01-2006, 02:40 PM
But you have to be paying at least 25 guys the minimum. So if there was a AAA guy in his place on the roster, he'd be getting that 317K instead of White. Of course, the problem comes when you're paying somebody 500K to pitch in AAA and White is taking his spot.

Of course, if you do outright cut him, you have to pay him 600K and pay the guy taking his spot, so you are out the full amount.

I understand where you're coming from. The way I see it, we've got plenty of Rick White type pitchers to stock this roster right now, so why commit to another $600K? I hope I'm wrong and he turns into Jeff Nelson of several years ago but I don't see how this improves the team at all. Weathers, Mercker, Hammond, Paul Wilson and now White. Did I forget anyone? By my count that's nearly half your staff made up of upper 30 something retreads. Not a pleasant thought if you're a Reds fan trying to get fired up about the 2006 season.

NC Reds
02-01-2006, 03:51 PM
Do you really think he'll have a sub 4 ERA pitching in Cincinnati? That's what scouting and evaluating talent is all about. They can't take his last year's stats and plug them into 2006 in Cincinnati. Exhibit A: Eric Milton

If Kullman wants the GM job this was not a good move to put on his resume IMO.

I have low expectations for Rick White. You are right - he will have a hard time replicating the same ERA pitching half his games in GABP. However, I think he can post better numbers compared to what the 2005 Reds bullpen did (at relatively the same cost).

CrackerJack
02-01-2006, 04:20 PM
Woo hoo! More of the same. I thought DanO was gone?

REDREAD
02-01-2006, 04:31 PM
No, the risk is much greater. First of all if they cut him, they're out $600K, not $250. If he's signed a minor league deal, it'll be for less than the major league minimum and it will not be guaranteed. This signing will also cost them a player, maybe Bubba who knows. .

They aren't likely to cut him before the allstar break.. but even if they cut him on opening day.. big deal, it's only 600k. My point is that if White stays all year, it's only 250k more than a minimum wage earner.

The Reds' 40 man roster is not flush with talent. There's plenty of dreck that can be exposed to waivers that no one will claim. I can guarantee you they'll find someone to cut that will not be missed at all.

In order to get White to sign, they had to offer him a ML deal. Atlanta and perhaps another team were after him. He signed with the Reds to be close to home, and probably because he knows he'll get plenty of work here. So, it was offer him a ML deal or not get him.

I can't believe people are ready to burn Kullman at the stake for this minor signing. There's no risk at all here, because the cost is so low. There's very good potential upside. As others pointed out, White likely replaces a youngster that would've posted a 6.00+ ERA. It's not like White has to pitch that well to make this a good move.

Now if the Reds gave White 4 million, I'd be complaining as much as anyone.. but it's only 600k.

I remember a lot of people also last year complaining about Weathers, particularly when Weathers started the season rough.. In the end, Weathers ended up being our best pitcher out of the pen. Note.. I do not expect White
to be as good as Weathers, but I see him as a better option than our current 11th pitcher on the depth chart.



Plain and simple, he's not worth a major league contract. Right handed mop up bullpen guys are not worth major league contracts. They are a dime a dozen and unfortunately they tend to greatly populate pitching staffs like our Reds.


I see White probably earning the #3 or #4 slot on the depth chart in the bullpen based on Merit, because frankly, there's not much talent there.

Any incremental improvement in talent at a low cost needs to be done for this team.

MattyHo4Life
02-01-2006, 04:37 PM
I think he can post better numbers compared to what the 2005 Reds bullpen did (at relatively the same cost).

Sounds like pretty high expectations to me.

cReds1
02-01-2006, 05:15 PM
What is the deal with the pick-ups of all the Pirate DUDS? I am glad to see the new owners are doing things differently around here. :rolleyes:

Sea Ray
02-01-2006, 05:21 PM
In order to get White to sign, they had to offer him a ML deal. Atlanta and perhaps another team were after him. He signed with the Reds to be close to home, and probably because he knows he'll get plenty of work here. So, it was offer him a ML deal or not get him.


Now if the Reds gave White 4 million, I'd be complaining as much as anyone.. but it's only 600k.





I see White probably earning the #3 or #4 slot on the depth chart in the bullpen based on Merit, because frankly, there's not much talent there.

Any incremental improvement in talent at a low cost needs to be done for this team.

I agree it's a minor deal that will likely not impact the team much positively or negatively. But wouldn't you have rather had Felix Rodriguez? Or maybe even Jeff Nelson on a minor league deal? I'm just looking at what $600K will buy out there and I don't think we got much for it.

Doc. Scott
02-01-2006, 05:33 PM
File White next to Rich Aurilia and Tony himself under what I'd call the "Womack Effect"- either they have great years on par with some of their best and actually justify the roster spot (unlikely, but possible), or you root for a total collapse that gets them run out of town on a rail. If Aurilia hits .260/.320/.400 or Tony does .270/.310/.380 or White puts up a 4.94 ERA, it does more to hurt the club because they'll continue to eat roster spots and at-bats and innings- not playing well enough to actively help the club to win and also blocking younger players to boot.

I would have much rather seen a guy under 30 with some actual bat-missing stuff get a real shot. I'm willing to take the implosion risks there. Just not very much upside here at all.

Chip R
02-01-2006, 05:35 PM
What is the deal with the pick-ups of all the Pirate DUDS? I am glad to see the new owners are doing things differently around here. :rolleyes:

They are doing things differently. Instead of picking up duds from TEX they are picking them up from PIT. ;)

REDREAD
02-02-2006, 11:52 AM
I agree it's a minor deal that will likely not impact the team much positively or negatively. But wouldn't you have rather had Felix Rodriguez? Or maybe even Jeff Nelson on a minor league deal? I'm just looking at what $600K will buy out there and I don't think we got much for it.

I agree the Felix Rod looks better, even at a potential 1.2 million.

One thing we have to sadly consider though is that Cincy is not exactly a favored place for FAs to come. Also, one of Bowden's strengths has always been playing the retread game.. signing the better ones on the cheap, especially relievers. Sure, they don't all work out, but that is a strength. He does seem to know how to sweet talk them into signing with him.

In the end, it's a rebuilding year anyhow. Kind of depressing to see us going into the season with another pitching staff that might end up being the worst in the NL again, while the position players get another year older and more expensive. See I see no end to the tunnel in site, I do support trying to stopgap the pitching staff with the likes of Weathers, Mercker, White, etc.
Yes, they'll be long gone before we contend again.. they aren't building blocks. But I think ownership realizes that you have to make the team somewhat presentable to keep fan interest. You can't risk throwing 12 Brian Rieths out there. You can carry 2-3 questionable youngsters on the pitching staff, but the rest of the youngsters have to prove themselves in the minors.

MattyHo4Life
02-02-2006, 11:54 AM
One thing we have to sadly consider though is that Cincy is not exactly a favored place for FAs to come.

It's not the Yankees we're talking about. This is the Expos...I mean Nationals. lol

REDREAD
02-02-2006, 11:55 AM
If Aurilia hits .260/.320/.400 or Tony does .270/.310/.380 or White puts up a 4.94 ERA, it does more to hurt the club because they'll continue to eat roster spots and at-bats and innings- not playing well enough to actively help the club to win and also blocking younger players to boot..

Who exactly are these guys blocking though?
I bet in spring training, the last guy cut and sent to AAA because White is on the team will not be a big loss.

We have no decent MI options in the minors. I don't consider Bergollia and Olmedo worth a roster spot yet. They need to prove themselves in the minors. I'm not even convinced Olmedo is a decent fielder. Bergollia seems to be a decent glove, but he's not a ML hitter. Womack hitting .270 is a lot more valuable than what Bergollia would give you. Not because Womack is great at that level, but because Bergollia is bad.

We're starting to hit a period of draught due to neglect of the farm system under John Allen's watch. All the position player prospects Bowden acquired/drafted are either in the minors or gone. DanO did zilch to add position player talent because he was too obsessed with acquiring pitching prospects only. It's going to bite us for a long time now. Get used to seeing Aurillias and Womacks in the lineup until the farm gets revitalized. I just hope we don't start seeing retreads in the OF in two years.

REDREAD
02-02-2006, 11:58 AM
It's not the Yankees we're talking about. This is the Expos...I mean Nationals. lol

I know.. but Bowden can make a great sales pitch to retreads. He usually picked up 1 or 2 good retread pitchers a year at Cincy.

gm
02-02-2006, 12:45 PM
I remember a lot of people also last year complaining about Weathers, particularly when Weathers started the season rough.. In the end, Weathers ended up being our best pitcher out of the pen. Note.. I do not expect White to be as good as Weathers, but I see him as a better option than our current 11th pitcher on the depth chart.

I recall similar hand-wringing when Todd Jones was brought in to "replace" Reitsma, coming out of spring training in '04 ("TJ's washed up, etc")

Disclaimer: I'm not saying White will replicate Jones' performance

KronoRed
02-02-2006, 01:16 PM
We have no decent MI options in the minors. I don't consider Bergollia and Olmedo worth a roster spot yet. They need to prove themselves in the minors. I'm not even convinced Olmedo is a decent fielder. Bergollia seems to be a decent glove, but he's not a ML hitter. Womack hitting .270 is a lot more valuable than what Bergollia would give you. Not because Womack is great at that level, but because Bergollia is bad.

I'd rather see kids try and fail then old vets stink it up and keep playing because our manager thinks they will regain some old lost magic.

Chip R
02-02-2006, 01:36 PM
I'd rather see kids try and fail then old vets stink it up and keep playing because our manager thinks they will regain some old lost magic.

I would too but most of these guys are really no longer kids. I've been at odds with REDREAD on a lot of things but I think he's spot on here. They could probably stick Bergolla in there at 2nd every day and he'd give you good defense but that's about it. With this team's offense they could probably handle him batting 8th every day. But he's really nothing special. As I said on "The Thread" I'm almost looking forward to seeing them put Womack in there every day so they can see for themselves how much he stinks.

Bill
02-02-2006, 02:03 PM
Toronto just acquired Tallet for non-prospect Bubbie Buzachero. Kullman traded Nelson for White essentially. White is filler, Tallet has upside and is a lefty.

Doc. Scott
02-02-2006, 04:32 PM
Who exactly are these guys blocking though?
I bet in spring training, the last guy cut and sent to AAA because White is on the team will not be a big loss.

We have no decent MI options in the minors. I don't consider Bergollia and Olmedo worth a roster spot yet. They need to prove themselves in the minors. I'm not even convinced Olmedo is a decent fielder. Bergollia seems to be a decent glove, but he's not a ML hitter. Womack hitting .270 is a lot more valuable than what Bergollia would give you. Not because Womack is great at that level, but because Bergollia is bad.


Uh, hello? Rich Aurilia is blocking Edwin Encarnacion? And don't tell me he isn't. Richus will take away at-bats whether Edwin slugs .550 or .350.

And I am completely confident than Bergolla or Olmedo could come in right now and hit as well or better than Tony Womack, steal as many or more bases, and play better defense at 2B. That may be damning with faint praise, sure. And Bergolla needs another year at AAA, but Olmedo's going to be jettisoned in favor of Womack... and that's not a swap I personally would make.

White is blocking about eight or nine other pitchers that had a shot to take that roster spot. Of course most of them will end up flops, but I'd much rather see if some of the Hudsons and Standridges and Simpsons can hack it over a full season in a low-leverage bullpen role. I guarantee you that at least a couple of those names on the 40-man would/could do better than White will in 2006 if they get the chance. Now, the chance they get the chance is considerably lower.

When you sign these retreads and place them in front of whatever young players you have (the level of promise they have varying, of course), you create a Catch-22 for the youngsters- they need to prove themselves at the big league level to earn a job, but they can't earn a job because there's no room to prove themselves at the big league level.

Doc. Scott
02-02-2006, 04:44 PM
I know.. but Bowden can make a great sales pitch to retreads. He usually picked up 1 or 2 good retread pitchers a year at Cincy.

Yeah but the problem was that he depended on them to fill several open spots on the staff, rather than considering it a bonus if they bounced back. He'd also bring so many pitchers to camp that they ended up (more or less) holding too many auditions in-season.

When the Reds brought in Weathers and Mercker (and Weber, in theory) before last season, that was fine. There were almost no veterans on the staff outside of Danny Graves (as Todd Jones, Frisbee Norton, and John Riedling had all hit the bricks), and barely enough potential filler for there to be real competition.

With White coming in, it's a totally different story- four spots were already spoken for (Weathers/Mercker/Hammond/Belisle) and two virtually spoken for (Wagner/Coffey). On top of that, Brian Shackleford has to pretty much pitch his way off the team, not on it. Only one spot- two at absolute most- was even up for grabs, and now White has carved out that spot for mediocrity regardless of who shows what in spring training.

REDREAD
02-02-2006, 04:59 PM
I'd rather see kids try and fail then old vets stink it up and keep playing because our manager thinks they will regain some old lost magic.


Even if the kids have no chance improving enough to be an acceptable Major leaguer? IMO, I'd rather see Aurillia out there than Machado.

registerthis
02-02-2006, 05:04 PM
Even if the kids have no chance improving enough to be an acceptable Major leaguer? IMO, I'd rather see Aurillia out there than Machado.

Either way, you're screwed. Your team shouldn't be in the position to have to choose between Rich Aurilia and Anderson Machado. That's some bad GM'ing, that's what that is.

REDREAD
02-02-2006, 05:07 PM
Uh, hello? Rich Aurilia is blocking Edwin Encarnacion? And don't tell me he isn't. Richus will take away at-bats whether Edwin slugs .550 or .350..

Possibly.. but let's wait and see. Give Narron the chance at least to make the right call. I've seen conflicting reports on Narron's take on Aurillia's role.

I'm not of the mindset that the GM shouldn't add infield depth because the field manager might be tempted to do something stupid. If that's the case, Narron is the problem, not the GM. The GM should still try to improve the team as much as possible. Aurillia is better than Olmedo, Machado, etc.





And I am completely confident than Bergolla or Olmedo could come in right now and hit as well or better than Tony Womack, steal as many or more bases, and play better defense at 2B.
..

Ok, if you believe that, you have an argument not to bring in Womack.
I have no faith in Bergolla or Olmedo though even playing at a Womack-level.








White is blocking about eight or nine other pitchers that had a shot to take that roster spot. Of course most of them will end up flops, but I'd much rather see if some of the Hudsons and Standridges and Simpsons can hack it over a full season in a low-leverage bullpen role. I guarantee you that at least a couple of those names on the 40-man would/could do better than White will in 2006 if they get the chance. Now, the chance they get the chance is considerably lower.

..

Actually, they still have a chance. Only one of them will miss out because of White's presence. Hudson and company are all very marginal guys. Let's face it, even at their upside, they aren't a piece to a contending team. Let them earn their spot on the roster, as opposed to giving them a slot in the pen by default (due to lack of bodies on the roster).






When you sign these retreads and place them in front of whatever young players you have (the level of promise they have varying, of course), you create a Catch-22 for the youngsters- they need to prove themselves at the big league level to earn a job, but they can't earn a job because there's no room to prove themselves at the big league level.

I see four vets in the pen right now (Weathers, Mercker, White, Hammond). Assuming the Reds go with a 12 man staff, that leaves room for 3 kids. That's plenty of kids, IMO. If all three of those kids do well and someone is really playing well at AAA, it will be easy to move one of those vets in a trade to open a roster spot since all those vets are low paid.
The kid pitchers don't have to be in Cincy in order to develop.

REDREAD
02-02-2006, 05:11 PM
With White coming in, it's a totally different story- four spots were already spoken for (Weathers/Mercker/Hammond/Belisle) and two virtually spoken for (Wagner/Coffey). On top of that, Brian Shackleford has to pretty much pitch his way off the team, not on it. Only one spot- two at absolute most- was even up for grabs, and now White has carved out that spot for mediocrity regardless of who shows what in spring training.

Shackleford can beat out Wagner, Coffey, or Belisle if he really pitches well.
All the youngsters he's competing against have options to be sent down too.

If we have 4 or 5 young pitchers pitching lights out in spring training, that's not a problem at all. One of the vets could easily be moved.

My guess is that we'll be lucky to have 2 or 3 of the young bullpen pitchers really gel. That's just the nature of prospects, most wash out. Nothing wrong with adding depth to be prepared for that.

KronoRed
02-02-2006, 05:12 PM
Even if the kids have no chance improving enough to be an acceptable Major leaguer? IMO, I'd rather see Aurillia out there than Machado.
Aurilia will be playing over EE not the kids, 2b is where we will see Freel be called too valuable to play and have Womack play..and yes I would rather see a sub .200 hitter give Freel a day off now and then and bat 8th (we have enough O) then to see Womack starting 120 times and leading off.

Doc. Scott
02-03-2006, 01:54 AM
Shackleford can beat out Wagner, Coffey, or Belisle if he really pitches well.
All the youngsters he's competing against have options to be sent down too.

If we have 4 or 5 young pitchers pitching lights out in spring training, that's not a problem at all. One of the vets could easily be moved.

My guess is that we'll be lucky to have 2 or 3 of the young bullpen pitchers really gel. That's just the nature of prospects, most wash out. Nothing wrong with adding depth to be prepared for that.

Actually, only about half of them do. Off the top of my head, only Burns, Ramirez, Coffey, Wagner, and Shackleford have options. Everyone else has to go through waivers to be sent down (although Hancock and presumably Nelson are off the 40-man).

Of course two-thirds of them will flop. And I've never disagreed that it's not the greatest list of stud prospects- everyone's got a selling point, but everyone's also got some caveats. But you haven't addressed that Catch-22 I've made reference to that blocks the Reds' ability to figure out who can do what over the course of an actual major-league season.