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CySeymour
02-04-2006, 10:24 AM
What was the difference between the 2005 Reds and the '87 Reds? Both teams had really good offenses and poor starting pitching. At least, working off of memory, I remember the '87 team have very bad starting pitching.

But that team still finished with a winning record...84-78. The one thing that I remember is the '87 team had a kick butt bullpen, probably the best in the game at the time. Is that what enabled them to win more than they lost

macro
02-04-2006, 11:09 AM
That '87 team did have awful starting pitching. It was so bad that I can only think of three starting pitchers from that staff: Browning, who had an off year, Ted Power, and Bill Gullickson. Who were the other two, or was that when Pete was using only four starters?

You are right that the bullpen was very good. Franco from the left and Rob Murphy from the right. IIRC Murphy kept a PC in the dugout to analyze hitters or something. The national media took notice of it.

The Reds had a chance to improve that staff by trading for Rick Reuschel from the Pirates, but they thought the asking price too high. The Giants pulled the trigger on a deal, and came into Riverfront in early August down 4 1/2 games to the Reds. They proceeded to sweep a five-game series and leave town with a 1/2-game lead.

I don't remember Reuschel being all that great, but I think the combination of the Reds not getting him and the Giants getting him kinda demoralized the Reds players. I seem to recall some of them complaining in the papers.

And while we're talking about 1987, how about Eric Davis in April and May?

ochre
02-04-2006, 11:19 AM
Murphy was a lefty. Looks like Frank Williams was tough from the pen too.

top 5 starters in number of starts for the Reds in '87:
Ted Power
Tom Browning
Bill Gullickson
Guy Hoffman
Ron Robinson

BoydsOfSummer
02-04-2006, 11:20 AM
1987 CINCINNATI REDS PITCHING STATS

NAME W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO
Ted Power 10 13 .435 34 34 2 0 0 204 213 115 102 71 133
Tom Browning 10 13 .435 32 31 2 0 1 183 201 107 102 61 117
Bill Gullickson 10 11 .476 27 27 3 0 0 165 172 99 89 39 89
Guy Hoffman 9 10 .474 36 22 0 0 2 158.2 160 83 77 49 87
Ron Robinson 7 5 .583 48 18 0 4 14 154 148 71 63 43 99
Frank Williams 4 0 1.000 85 0 0 2 19 105.2 101 37 27 39 60
Rob Murphy 8 5 .615 87 0 0 3 21 100.2 91 37 34 32 99
John Franco 8 5 .615 68 0 0 32 60 82 76 26 23 27 61
Bill Landrum 3 2 .600 44 2 0 2 14 65 68 35 34 34 42
Dennis Rasmussen 4 1 .800 7 7 0 0 0 45.1 39 22 20 12 39
Pat Pacillo 3 3 .500 12 7 0 0 2 39.2 41 30 27 19 23
Jerry Reuss 0 5 .000 7 7 0 0 0 34.2 52 31 30 12 10
Bill Scherrer 1 1 .500 23 0 0 0 10 33 43 17 16 16 24
Mario Soto 3 2 .600 6 6 0 0 0 31.2 34 18 18 12 11
Jeff Montgomery 2 2 .500 14 1 0 0 6 19.1 25 15 14 9 13
Pat Perry 1 0 1.000 12 0 0 1 3 15.1 6 0 0 4 6
Tom Hume 1 0 1.000 11 0 0 0 2 13.1 14 6 6 2 4
Paul O'Neill 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 2 2 3 3 4 2
TOTALS 84 78 .519 554 162 7 44 155 1452.1 1486 752 685 485 919


NAME ERA RSAA HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
Ted Power 4.50 -6 28 9.40 12.66 5.87 3.13 1.87 1 3 7 3 887 2 11 12
Tom Browning 5.02 -16 27 9.89 13.13 5.75 3.00 1.92 0 2 7 5 791 4 10 13
Bill Gullickson 4.85 -11 33 9.38 11.62 4.85 2.13 2.28 1 4 6 2 698 1 9 12
Guy Hoffman 4.37 -2 20 9.08 12.08 4.93 2.78 1.78 0 3 5 4 669 1 9 10
Ron Robinson 3.68 10 14 8.65 11.22 5.79 2.51 2.30 0 2 8 1 638 0 7 5
Frank Williams 2.30 23 5 8.60 12.09 5.11 3.32 1.54 0 4 9 2 446 0 3 1
Rob Murphy 3.04 14 7 8.14 11.00 8.85 2.86 3.09 0 1 5 0 415 0 8 5
John Franco 2.52 16 6 8.34 11.30 6.70 2.96 2.26 0 1 6 0 344 0 9 4
Bill Landrum 4.71 -3 3 9.42 14.12 5.82 4.71 1.24 0 4 6 0 276 1 2 3
Dennis Rasmussen 3.97 1 5 7.74 10.32 7.74 2.38 3.25 0 1 0 1 187 2 3 2
Pat Pacillo 6.13 -8 7 9.30 13.84 5.22 4.31 1.21 0 3 0 1 176 0 2 4
Jerry Reuss 7.79 -14 2 13.50 16.88 2.60 3.12 0.83 0 1 2 1 163 1 1 4
Bill Scherrer 4.36 0 3 11.73 16.09 6.55 4.36 1.50 0 2 4 0 151 0 1 1
Mario Soto 5.12 -3 7 9.66 13.07 3.13 3.41 0.92 0 1 1 0 138 0 2 3
Jeff Montgomery 6.52 -5 2 11.64 15.83 6.05 4.19 1.44 0 1 1 0 89 1 1 3
Pat Perry 0.00 7 0 3.52 6.46 3.52 2.35 1.50 0 0 1 1 55 0 1 0
Tom Hume 4.05 0 0 9.45 11.48 2.70 1.35 2.00 0 0 0 1 54 0 1 0
Paul O'Neill 13.50 -2 1 9.00 27.00 9.00 18.00 0.50 0 0 0 0 11 0 0 0
TOTALS 4.24 1 170 9.21 12.35 5.69 3.01 1.89 2 33 68 22 6188 13 80 82




1987 CINCINNATI REDS HITTING STATS

PLAYER G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
Dave Parker 153 589 77 149 28 0 26 97 44 104 7 3 .253 .433 .311 .744
Buddy Bell 143 522 74 148 19 2 17 70 71 39 4 1 .284 .425 .369 .794
Eric Davis 129 474 120 139 23 4 37 100 84 134 50 6 .293 .593 .399 .991
Bo Diaz 140 496 49 134 28 1 15 82 19 73 1 0 .270 .421 .300 .722
Barry Larkin 125 439 64 107 16 2 12 43 36 52 21 6 .244 .371 .306 .678
Kurt Stillwell 131 395 54 102 20 7 4 33 32 50 4 6 .258 .375 .316 .690
Kal Daniels 108 368 73 123 24 1 26 64 60 62 26 8 .334 .617 .429 1.046
Tracy Jones 117 359 53 104 17 3 10 44 23 40 31 8 .290 .437 .333 .771
Nick Esasky 100 346 48 94 19 2 22 59 29 76 0 0 .272 .529 .327 .856
Dave Concepcion 104 279 32 89 15 0 1 33 28 24 4 3 .319 .384 .377 .761
Ron Oester 69 237 28 60 9 6 2 23 22 51 2 3 .253 .367 .317 .684
Terry Francona 102 207 16 47 5 0 3 12 10 12 2 0 .227 .295 .266 .561
Paul O'Neill 84 160 24 41 14 1 7 28 18 29 2 1 .256 .488 .331 .819
Dave Collins 57 85 19 25 5 0 0 5 11 12 9 0 .294 .353 .388 .741
Terry McGriff 34 89 6 20 3 0 2 11 8 17 0 0 .225 .326 .289 .615
Jeff Treadway 23 84 9 28 4 0 2 4 2 6 1 0 .333 .452 .356 .809
Lloyd McClendon 45 72 8 15 5 0 2 13 4 15 1 0 .208 .361 .247 .608
Ted Power 35 59 3 7 1 0 1 4 3 31 0 0 .119 .186 .175 .361
Tom Browning 34 52 2 8 2 0 0 6 3 21 1 0 .154 .192 .200 .392
Bill Gullickson 27 53 4 11 2 0 1 3 0 11 0 0 .208 .302 .208 .509
Guy Hoffman 36 45 2 5 1 0 0 5 0 15 0 0 .111 .133 .111 .244
Ron Robinson 48 36 4 7 0 0 0 2 0 14 0 0 .194 .194 .189 .384
Leo Garcia 31 30 8 6 0 0 1 2 4 8 3 1 .200 .300 .286 .586
Dennis Rasmussen 7 15 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 7 0 0 .067 .067 .125 .192
Pat Pacillo 13 11 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 6 0 0 .091 .182 .167 .348
Sal Butera 5 11 1 2 0 0 1 2 1 6 0 0 .182 .455 .250 .705
Mario Soto 6 12 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 .083 .083 .083 .167
Jerry Reuss 7 8 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 .125 .250 .125 .375
Max Venable 7 7 2 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 .143 .143 .143 .286
Bill Landrum 44 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .200 .200 .200 .400
Rob Murphy 87 5 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 .200 .200 .200 .400
Frank Williams 85 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
John Franco 68 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Jeff Montgomery 14 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
Bill Scherrer 23 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .000 .000 .000
TOTALS 2241 5560 783 1478 262 29 192 747 514 928 169 46 .266 .427 .330 .757

PLAYER RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP GIDP SAC SF POS
Dave Parker 76 -13 -27 .420 4.43 255 54 .180 .261 .459 13 8 14 0 6 RF
Buddy Bell 83 7 5 .536 5.72 222 38 .142 .284 .475 3 1 14 1 2 3B
Eric Davis 124 56 50 .748 9.57 281 64 .300 .570 .719 8 1 6 0 3 CF
Bo Diaz 58 -17 1 .379 4.04 209 44 .151 .192 .414 1 5 16 4 6 C
Barry Larkin 52 -16 3 .372 3.97 163 30 .128 .244 .437 3 5 8 5 3 SS
Kurt Stillwell 46 -13 4 .379 4.03 148 31 .116 .192 .406 2 2 5 2 2 SS
Kal Daniels 100 50 41 .775 10.38 227 51 .283 .495 .699 11 1 6 1 0 LF
Tracy Jones 53 -1 -10 .488 5.15 157 30 .148 .276 .503 0 3 10 0 5 LF
Nick Esasky 56 5 -2 .535 5.71 183 43 .257 .341 .537 3 0 10 2 1 1B
Dave Concepcion 39 -1 2 .483 5.09 107 16 .065 .168 .406 5 0 10 1 3 2B
Ron Oester 25 -12 -9 .326 3.55 87 17 .114 .203 .386 4 0 8 2 0 2B
Terry Francona 16 -16 -21 .215 2.60 61 8 .068 .126 .317 1 1 5 1 0 1B
Paul O'Neill 25 1 -2 .517 5.49 78 22 .231 .350 .528 1 0 3 0 0 RF
Dave Collins 15 3 1 .589 6.43 30 5 .059 .294 .520 0 2 1 2 0 LF
Terry McGriff 8 -6 -3 .262 3.00 29 5 .101 .191 .351 0 0 3 0 0 C
Jeff Treadway 14 2 3 .580 6.30 38 6 .119 .155 .471 0 1 1 3 0 2B
Lloyd McClendon 6 -5 -3 .232 2.75 26 7 .153 .222 .390 0 0 1 0 1 C
Ted Power 2 -10 0 .036 0.87 11 2 .068 .119 .222 0 1 1 9 0 P
Tom Browning 2 -8 0 .050 1.06 10 2 .038 .115 .236 0 0 1 6 0 P
Bill Gullickson 3 -6 1 .110 1.69 16 3 .094 .094 .264 0 0 2 4 0 P
Guy Hoffman 1 -7 -1 .020 0.63 6 1 .022 .022 .133 0 0 0 3 0 P
Ron Robinson 1 -6 0 .027 0.75 7 0 .000 .000 .162 0 0 1 5 1 P
Leo Garcia 3 -2 -2 .276 3.12 9 1 .100 .300 .429 0 0 0 0 1 CF
Dennis Rasmussen 0 -3 -1 .000 0.00 1 0 .000 .067 .125 0 0 0 0 0 P
Pat Pacillo 0 -2 0 .000 0.00 2 1 .091 .182 .167 0 0 1 1 0 P
Sal Butera 1 -1 0 .262 3.00 5 1 .273 .364 .500 0 0 0 0 0 C
Mario Soto 0 -2 0 .000 0.00 1 0 .000 .000 .083 0 0 0 0 0 P
Jerry Reuss 0 -2 0 .000 0.00 2 1 .125 .125 .250 0 0 0 2 0 P
Max Venable 0 -1 -1 .000 0.00 1 0 .000 .000 .143 0 0 0 0 0 CF
Bill Landrum 0 -1 0 .000 0.00 1 0 .000 .000 .000 0 0 1 1 0 P
Rob Murphy 0 -1 0 .000 0.00 1 0 .000 .000 .200 0 0 0 1 0 P
Frank Williams 0 -1 0 .000 0.00 0 0 .000 .000 -.200 0 0 1 1 0 P
John Franco 0 0 0 .000 0.00 0 0 .000 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 0 P
Jeff Montgomery 0 0 0 .000 0.00 0 0 .000 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 0 P
Bill Scherrer 0 0 0 .000 0.00 0 0 .000 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 0 P
TOTALS 809 20 30 .477 5.02 2374 483 .161 .276 .475 55 31 129 57 34

BoydsOfSummer
02-04-2006, 11:24 AM
1987 NL TEAM PITCHING STATS

TEAM W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA
Giants 90 72 .556 510 162 19 38 143 1471 1407 669 604 547 1038 3.70
Dodgers 73 89 .451 443 162 29 32 133 1455 1415 675 601 565 1097 3.72
Mets 92 70 .568 470 162 16 51 146 1454 1407 698 621 510 1032 3.84
Astros 76 86 .469 478 162 13 33 149 1441.1 1363 678 616 525 1137 3.85
Expos 91 71 .562 497 162 16 50 146 1450.1 1428 720 632 446 1012 3.92
Cardinals 95 67 .586 524 162 10 48 152 1466 1484 693 641 533 873 3.94
Phillies 80 82 .494 551 162 13 48 149 1448.1 1453 749 673 587 877 4.18
Pirates 80 82 .494 475 162 25 39 137 1445 1377 744 674 562 914 4.20
Reds 84 78 .519 554 162 7 44 155 1452.1 1486 752 685 485 919 4.24
Padres 65 97 .401 497 162 14 33 148 1433.1 1402 763 681 602 897 4.28
Cubs 76 85 .472 488 161 11 48 150 1434.2 1524 801 727 628 1024 4.56
Braves 69 92 .429 485 161 16 32 145 1427.2 1529 829 735 587 837 4.63
TOTALS 971 971 .500 5972 1942 189 496 1753 17379 17275 8771 7890 6577 11657 4.09


TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK PARK
Giants 146 8.61 12.12 6.35 3.35 1.90 8 59 86 27 6202 25 89
Dodgers 130 8.75 12.42 6.79 3.49 1.94 7 54 62 28 6238 18 81
Mets 135 8.71 12.08 6.39 3.16 2.02 5 42 51 34 6191 13 95
Astros 141 8.51 11.95 7.10 3.28 2.17 4 39 61 26 6114 14 83
Expos 145 8.86 11.79 6.28 2.77 2.27 6 47 45 26 6151 14 112
Cardinals 129 9.11 12.55 5.36 3.27 1.64 4 46 79 27 6254 22 95
Phillies 167 9.03 12.89 5.45 3.65 1.49 5 35 86 35 6265 23 109
Pirates 164 8.58 12.21 5.69 3.50 1.63 10 61 60 22 6131 18 110
Reds 170 9.21 12.35 5.69 3.01 1.89 2 33 68 22 6188 13 108
Padres 175 8.80 12.81 5.63 3.78 1.49 6 55 62 36 6206 21 94
Cubs 159 9.56 13.67 6.42 3.94 1.63 4 58 67 27 6311 29 104
Braves 163 9.64 13.59 5.28 3.70 1.43 4 42 55 39 6270 9 122
TOTALS 1824 8.95 12.53 6.04 3.41 1.77 65 571 782 349 74521 219





1987 NL TEAM HITTING STATS

TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
Mets 5601 823 1499 287 34 192 3.43 771 592 1012 159 49 .268 .434 .339 .773
Cardinals 5500 798 1449 252 49 94 1.71 746 644 933 248 72 .263 .378 .340 .718
Giants 5608 783 1458 274 32 205 3.66 731 511 1094 126 97 .260 .430 .324 .754
Reds 5560 783 1478 262 29 192 3.45 747 514 928 169 46 .266 .427 .330 .757
Braves 5428 747 1401 284 24 152 2.80 696 641 834 135 68 .258 .403 .339 .742
Expos 5527 741 1467 310 39 120 2.17 695 501 918 166 74 .265 .401 .328 .729
Pirates 5536 723 1464 282 45 131 2.37 684 535 914 140 58 .264 .403 .330 .732
Cubs 5583 720 1475 244 33 209 3.74 683 504 1064 109 48 .264 .432 .326 .758
Phillies 5475 702 1390 248 51 169 3.09 662 587 1109 111 49 .254 .410 .327 .737
Padres 5456 668 1419 209 48 113 2.07 621 577 992 198 91 .260 .378 .332 .710
Astros 5485 648 1386 238 28 122 2.22 603 526 936 162 46 .253 .373 .318 .691
Dodgers 5517 635 1389 236 23 125 2.27 594 445 923 128 59 .252 .371 .309 .680
TOTALS 66276 8771 17275 3126 435 1824 2.75 8233 6577 11657 1851 757 .261 .404 .328 .732

TEAM RC TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP GIDP SAC SF OUTS PA PARK
Mets 866 2430 513 .166 .292 .490 74 31 94 70 39 4354 6333 95
Cardinals 756 2081 395 .115 .264 .450 61 18 126 84 51 4384 6297 95
Giants 784 2411 511 .170 .266 .467 73 39 99 55 35 4436 6248 89
Reds 809 2374 483 .161 .276 .475 55 31 129 57 34 4348 6196 108
Braves 763 2189 460 .145 .276 .456 82 38 133 86 34 4348 6227 122
Expos 762 2215 469 .135 .243 .449 77 35 100 57 42 4333 6162 112
Pirates 751 2229 458 .138 .250 .448 67 29 121 71 51 4373 6222 110
Cubs 803 2412 486 .168 .269 .471 45 21 109 59 30 4354 6197 104
Phillies 758 2247 468 .157 .275 .455 51 25 133 63 40 4370 6190 109
Padres 729 2063 370 .118 .243 .435 75 27 122 81 36 4367 6177 94
Astros 692 2046 388 .120 .237 .427 52 24 115 58 50 4368 6143 83
Dodgers 647 2046 384 .119 .212 .409 70 31 126 82 39 4434 6114 81
TOTALS 9120 26743 5385 .143 .259 .453 782 349 1407 823 481 52469 74506

westofyou
02-04-2006, 12:32 PM
Here's a look at some of the stats each club had vs the league average.

It highlights how incredibly bad the pitching was in 2005.


CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1987

AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.003 .266 .269

EXTRA BASE HITS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 8 483 475

OBA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.009 .330 .339

RUNS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 16 783 767

RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 0.01 5.02 5.01

SECONDARY AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds .001 .284 .283

SLG DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds .008 .427 .419

STOLEN BASES DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 3 169 166

TOTAL AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds .001 .715 .714

WALKS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -64 514 578

---------------------------------------------------------
CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
2005

AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.007 .261 .268

EXTRA BASE HITS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 58 572 514

OBA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds .000 .339 .339

RUNS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 64 820 756

RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 0.39 5.46 5.07

SECONDARY AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds .034 .308 .274

SLG DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds .019 .446 .428

STOLEN BASES DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -18 72 90

TOTAL AVERAGE DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds .036 .754 .719

WALKS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 60 611 551

---------------------------------------------------------
CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
1987


BASERUNNERS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 0.00 12.35 12.53

ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.16 4.24 4.09

HITS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.26 9.21 8.95

HOMERUNS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -18 170 152

STRIKEOUTS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.34 5.69 6.04

STRIKEOUTS/WALKS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 0.12 1.89 1.77

WALKS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 0.40 3.01 3.41


---------------------------------------------------------


CINCINNATI REDS
SEASON
2005


BASERUNNERS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 1.00 14.00 12.76

ERA DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.95 5.18 4.23

HITS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -1.32 10.41 9.09

HOMERUNS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -56 219 163

STRIKEOUTS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.57 6.00 6.57

STRIKEOUTS/WALKS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds -.05 1.94 1.99

WALKS/9 IP DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Reds 0.20 3.09 3.29

paulrichjr
02-04-2006, 01:33 PM
The Reds had a chance to improve that staff by trading for Rick Reuschel from the Pirates, but they thought the asking price too high. The Giants pulled the trigger on a deal, and came into Riverfront in early August down 4 1/2 games to the Reds. They proceeded to sweep a five-game series and leave town with a 1/2-game lead.

I don't remember Reuschel being all that great, but I think the combination of the Reds not getting him and the Giants getting him kinda demoralized the Reds players. I seem to recall some of them complaining in the papers.


I thought Rick Reuschel was a solid pitcher for a couple of years during that time... Maybe even a number 1 or 2 a couple of years. I might be mistaken but I seem to remember him having a really good game during a playoff also around that time...

westofyou
02-04-2006, 01:54 PM
I don't remember Reuschel being all that great, but I think the combination of the Reds not getting him and the Giants getting him kinda demoralized the Reds players. I seem to recall some of them complaining in the papers.
That was just one of the trades that put the Giants over the top that season, they were way active and all the Giants fans were just as surprised by their success.

These three in season trades are awesome retrospect.


Traded Chris Brown, Keith Comstock, Mark Davis and Mark Grant to San Diego Padres in exchange for Dave Dravecky, Craig Lefferts and Kevin Mitchell.

Traded Mackey Sasser and $50000 to Pittsburgh Pirates in exchange for Don Robinson.

Traded Jeff Robinson and Scott Medvin to Pittsburgh Pirates in exchange for Rick Reuschel.

HalMorrisRules
02-04-2006, 02:44 PM
IIRC, the Reds could have gotten Rick Reuschel but for whatever reason they wouldnt pull the trigger. When he went to the Giants I was so ticked off. Rick Reuschel would have been the difference for us and instead he went to our rival and he WAS the difference for them. Reuschel had that slide step and was quick to the mound with runners on base. Not much of an "athlete" but was a very effective pitcher.

ochre
02-04-2006, 03:18 PM
ahh. A Chris "strained eyelid" Brown sighting.

CySeymour
02-04-2006, 03:21 PM
Maybe another factor was that the '87 team had a better defense than last years team. I don't have any numbers to back it up, but it seemed that the '87 team had a decent defense.

westofyou
02-04-2006, 03:48 PM
Maybe another factor was that the '87 team had a better defense than last years team. I don't have any numbers to back it up, but it seemed that the '87 team had a decent defense.


ERRORS E A
1 Kurt Stillwell 23 247
2 Barry Larkin 19 358
3 Dave Parker 11 17
4 Ron Oester 10 186
T5 Buddy Bell 7 241
T5 Bo Diaz 7 70
T7 Nick Esasky 6 41
T7 Kal Daniels 6 5
T9 Ron Robinson 5 18
T9 Dave Concepcion 5 169
T11 Eric Davis 4 10
T11 Paul O'Neill 4 2
T11 Jeff Treadway 4 48
T14 Tom Browning 3 23
T14 Terry McGriff 3 14


ERRORS E A
1 Felipe Lopez 17 369
T2 Edwin Encarnacion 10 116
T2 Rich Aurilia 10 295
4 Adam Dunn 9 17
5 Ryan Freel 8 159
6 Ramon Ortiz 7 28
7 Joe Randa 6 148
8 Jason LaRue 5 52
9 Wily Mo Pena 4 2
T10 Javier Valentin 3 28
T10 Ken Griffey Jr. 3 6
T12 Matt Belisle 2 10
T12 Sean Casey 2 55
T12 Austin Kearns 2 8
T12 Kent Mercker 2 11
T12 Rainer Olmedo 2 46
T12 D'Angelo Jimenez 2 63

M2
02-04-2006, 04:14 PM
The '87 Reds ranked 15th in defensive efficiency at .698. The '05 Reds ranked 28th at .678.

The bullpen was a decided for the '87 club and it had a bunch of good, young players. The '88 Reds would lead all of MLB in DER at .726. Eric Davis, Barry Larkin, Paul O'Neill, Chris Sabo, Kal Daniels, Tom Browning, Rob Dibble and Joe Oliver were emerging from the system. Jose Rijo, Danny Jackson, Norm Charlton, Hal Morris and Mariano Duncan would all show up in the next few years. All of these guys were in their 20s.

And Pythagoras, as always, helps tell the story. The '87 Reds finshed 84-78 because they played like an 84-78 team, outscoring the opposition by 31 runs. The 2005 Reds played like 75-87 team, getting outscored by 69 runs. Relatively speaking, the '87 Reds were 100 net runs better than the '05 model. So you're talking about a team with broader position player skills (the '87 model could run too), better pitching and a better foundation on which to build. Honestly, I don't recommend comparing these Reds to any other Reds club that's been seen in many of our lifetimes. You've got to go back 50+ years before you run into something similar.

CySeymour
02-05-2006, 12:14 AM
The top starters for each team and their ERA+

1987
SP Ted Power 94
SP *Tom Browning 85
SP Bill Gullickson 88
SP *Guy Hoffman 97

2005
SP *Eric Milton 69
SP Aaron Harang 116
SP Ramon Ortiz 83
SP *Brandon Claussen 105
SP Luke Hudson 70

alex trevino
02-05-2006, 01:17 AM
I was going to go to Browning's perfect game but passed on it because of the weather:bang:

Revering4Blue
02-05-2006, 03:49 AM
IIRC, the Reds could have gotten Rick Reuschel but for whatever reason they wouldnt pull the trigger. When he went to the Giants I was so ticked off. Rick Reuschel would have been the difference for us and instead he went to our rival and he WAS the difference for them. Reuschel had that slide step and was quick to the mound with runners on base. Not much of an "athlete" but was a very effective pitcher.


IIRC, The Pirates wanted Larkin, Daniels or Paul O'Neill in a deal for Reuschel. Too high a price. Suppose a package centered around Stillwell had netted Reuschel and the Reds had captured the NL '87 West flag. Is there any guarantee that the Reds would have beaten the Cards for the right to go the the World Series? The Giants didn't. Even if the Reds had advanced to the series, they may not have won, anyway.

The point is this--everything worked out in the end.

Stillwell and Power netted Danny Jackson.

Dave Parker was dealt for Rijo and Birtsas.

Reuschel was injured for nearly the entire 1990 season.

By not dealing the afforementioned future Red stars like Larkin for the likes of Reuschel, Bill Bergesch wound, losing his job. But it was the right thing to do, or in this case, not do.

There most likely would have been no World Series victory, much less World Series appearance for the Reds in 1990.

RedsBaron
02-05-2006, 08:28 AM
And while we're talking about 1987, how about Eric Davis in April and May?
Eric Davis in April and May of 1987 merely looked as if he might be the greatest player, ever. Pete Rose said having Davis on the team was like having a nuclear bomb in the dugout. At that time no player had ever had a 40-40 season and Davis appeared to be on his way to at least a 50-50 season. Of course, Eric then went through a slump, and injuries. He still had a great year, maybe the best year by any NL player in 1987, and he did get 50 stolen bases, although he finished with "only" 37 HRs.
I wonder whether or not a closer "comp" for the 2005 Reds might be one of the Reds teams from the mid-1950s. Although it is before my time, I believe those Reds teams lead by Big Klu had some power but not enough pitching to win.

RedsBaron
02-05-2006, 11:27 AM
I briefly looked at the stats for the Reds teams of 1954-56. While the offense bears some similarity to the 2005 Reds, the 2005 Reds pitching was much worse than the pitching on the Reds teams of the mid 1950s.

westofyou
02-05-2006, 12:10 PM
Bill Bergesch = Dan O'Brien

Bill took a lot of slack for not flipping one of the Reds excess in the outfield, in fact most of his tenure was marked with the lack of trades and the lack of good trades.

But his drafts were good in retrospect.



October 31, 1984

Traded Keefe Cato to San Diego Padres in exchange for Darren Burroughs.

November 8, 1984
Granted Free Agency

Bob Owchinko
Tony Perez

November 12, 1984

Sold Brad Lesley to Milwaukee Brewers.

December 3, 1984
Major League Draft

Lost Bill Landrum to Chicago White Sox.
January 3, 1985
Amateur Free-Agent Draft

2nd round secondary phase Shawn Gilbert (did not sign)

March 30, 1985

Bill Landrum returned from Chicago White Sox.

April 10, 1985

Tony Perez signed as a free agent.

April 26, 1985

Traded Skeeter Barnes to Montreal Expos in exchange for Max Venable.

May 19, 1985

Gino Minutelli signed as a non-drafted free agent.

June 3, 1985
Amateur Free-Agent Draft

1st round (4th pick) Barry Larkin
11th round Don Wakamatsu
12th round Marty Brown
17th round Mike Roesler

June 5, 1985

Sold Charlie Puleo to Atlanta Braves.

June 12, 1985

Sold Brad Gulden to Houston Astros.

July 19, 1985

Traded Duane Walker and a player to be named later to Texas Rangers in exchange for
Buddy Bell; Texas Rangers received Jeff Russell (July 23, 1985).

August 8, 1985

Traded Tom Foley, Alan Knicely and a player to be named later to Philadelphia
Phillies in exchange for Bo Diaz and Greg Simpson; Philadelphia Phillies received
Freddie Toliver (August 27, 1985).

August 29, 1985

Traded Cesar Cedeno to St. Louis Cardinals in exchange for Mark Jackson.

October 15, 1985
Granted Free Agency

Morris Madden

November 11, 1985

Traded Bob Buchanan to San Francisco Giants in exchange for Colin Ward.

November 12, 1985
Granted Free Agency

Tony Perez

December 10, 1985
Major League Draft

Lost Eddie Williams to Cleveland Indians.
Lost Carl Willis to California Angels.

December 11, 1985

Traded Gary Redus and Tom Hume to Philadelphia Phillies in exchange for John Denny
and Jeff Gray.

December 19, 1985

Traded Jay Tibbs, Andy McGaffigan, John Stuper and Dann Bilardello to Montreal Expos
in exchange for Bill Gullickson and Sal Butera.


January 14, 1986
Amateur Free-Agent Draft

4th round Mike Butcher (did not sign)
6th round Chris Hammond
10th round Lonnie Maclin (did not sign)

January 16, 1986

Derek Botelho signed as a free agent.

January 20, 1986

Tony Perez signed as a free agent.

March 31, 1986

Traded Wayne Krenchicki to Montreal Expos in exchange for Norm Charlton and a player
to be named later; Cincinnati Reds received Tim Barker (April 2, 1986).

April 4, 1986

Frank Pastore released.

Chris Welsh signed as a free agent.

April 6, 1986

Carl Willis returned from California Angels.

June 2, 1986
Amateur Free-Agent Draft

1st round (17th pick) Scott Scudder
3rd round Reggie Jefferson
6th round Ed Taubensee
7th round Jeff Richardson
9th round Chuck Carr
11th round Keith Lockhart
21st round Keith Brown
22nd round Pete Young (did not sign)
27th round Paul Miller (did not sign)
31st round Jim Byrd (did not sign)

July 16, 1986

Ivan DeJesus signed as a free agent.

July 28, 1986

Ivan DeJesus released.

November 11, 1986

Pete Rose released.

Dave Van Gorder released.

Chris Welsh released.

November 12, 1986
Granted Free Agency

Dave Concepcion
John Denny
Joe Price

December 1, 1986

Traded Mike Smith to Montreal Expos in exchange for Bill Cutshall.

December 5, 1986

Dave Concepcion signed as a free agent.


1987

Bill Scherrer signed as a free agent.

January 8, 1987

Traded Eddie Milner to San Francisco Giants in exchange for Frank Williams, Timber
Mead and Mike Villa.

February 17, 1987

Traded Wade Rowdon to Chicago Cubs in exchange for Guy Hoffman.

March 16, 1987

Rosario Rodriguez signed as a non-drafted free agent.

March 20, 1987

Traded Derek Botelho to Kansas City Royals in exchange for Eddie Tanner and Pete
Carey.

March 23, 1987

Terry Francona signed as a free agent.

March 29, 1987

Max Venable released.

April 1, 1987

Chuck Carr released.

April 9, 1987

Max Venable signed as a free agent.

April 18, 1987

Jerry Reuss signed as a free agent.

May 19, 1987

Sal Butera released.

June 2, 1987
Amateur Free-Agent Draft

1st round (18th pick) Jack Armstrong
2nd round Freddie Benavides
7th round Reggie Sanders
8th round Jimmy Kremers (did not sign)
14th round Bill Risley
15th round Butch Henry
28th round Milt Hill
41st round Tim Costo (did not sign)
45th round Glenn Sutko

June 14, 1987

Jerry Reuss released.

June 19, 1987

Dave Collins signed as a free agent.

July 13, 1987

Jim Wohlford signed as a free agent.

August 18, 1987

Tom Hume signed as a free agent.

August 26, 1987

Traded Bill Gullickson to New York Yankees in exchange for Dennis Rasmussen.

August 31, 1987

Traded a player to be named later to St. Louis Cardinals in exchange for Pat Perry; St. Louis Cardinals received Scott Terry (September 3, 1987).

Team Clark
02-05-2006, 03:06 PM
This could also mean the Reds are within a few years of a World Championship. Maybe Sweet Lou could be the missing ingredient again.

westofyou
02-05-2006, 03:47 PM
This could also mean the Reds are within a few years of a World Championship. Maybe Sweet Lou could be the missing ingredient again.

I'd like a new GM who made quick and smart moves like Cook did when he got the job in 87.


November 6, 1987
Traded Ted Power and Kurt Stillwell to Kansas City Royals in exchange for Danny Jackson and Angel Salazar.

December 8, 1987
Traded Dave Parker to Oakland Athletics in exchange for Jose Rijo and Tim Birtsas.

That is attacking a problem and the 1987 Reds had a starting pitcher problem.

M2
02-05-2006, 04:06 PM
I'd like a new GM who made quick and smart moves like Cook did when he got the job in 87.

I loved Cook's first two moves and then he pretty much spit the bit. Don't get me started on Tim Leary.

IMO, there's some critical differences between Bergesch and DanO. Bergesch generally made good trades. When he picked up a vet like Buddy Bell or Bo Diaz or Bill Gullickson, that guy generally delivered. He also snagged Norm Charlton and Frank Williams for just about nothing (Eddie Milner and Wayne Krenchicki).

Bergesch made good additions to a solid team and resisted the temptation to deal away some of the young players who finally delivered a championship in 1990. You can only imagine what would have happened had he caved in to the pressure to deal Larkin in 1987. I remember being horrified at the time when I heard the team was considering it. Bergesch certainly would have done well to pull the trigger on Stillwell or Tracy Jones, but, vastly unlike DanO, he understood where his club was headed.

Little Alex
02-05-2006, 11:21 PM
I loved Cook's first two moves and then he pretty much spit the bit. Don't get me started on Tim Leary.

IMO, there's some critical differences between Bergesch and DanO. Bergesch generally made good trades. When he picked up a vet like Buddy Bell or Bo Diaz or Bill Gullickson, that guy generally delivered. He also snagged Norm Charlton and Frank Williams for just about nothing (Eddie Milner and Wayne Krenchiki).

Bergesch made good additions to a solid team and resisted the temptation to deal away some of the young players who finally delivered a championship in 1990. You can only imagine what would have happened had he caved in to the pressure to deal Larkin in 1987. I remember being horrified at the time when I heard the team was considering it. Bergesch certainly would have done well to pull the trigger on Stillwell or Tracy Jones, but, vastly unlike DanO, he understood where his club was headed.



I remember the Milner trade. It was the perfect time because Milner was playing the best ball of his career at the time.

deltachi8
02-05-2006, 11:38 PM
This could also mean the Reds are within a few years of a World Championship. Maybe Sweet Lou could be the missing ingredient again.

Not unless he can pitch...

macro
02-06-2006, 10:47 AM
I was going to go to Browning's perfect game but passed on it because of the weather

You would have been a year early, alex. Browning didn't pitch his perfect game until September 1988. And by the way, I too passed on that game because it was a cold rainy night and I already had tickets for the next day. I sat in a hotel room in Newport eating pizza while history was made just across the river.:bang:

Tony Cloninger
02-06-2006, 01:16 PM
The reds could have had RR for free..... before 1985 season.

He was released by Cubs.....everyone thought he was done.
He peddled his services to Rose specifically.
He turned him down.

They also tried Jerry Reuss on the hill. He was good on maybe 2 starts....awful on the rest. Then he gets released...goes to the White Sox and pitches a CG SHO in his first start!

They fixed the pitching next year....and then the bats go dead.
Not having Parker in the middle of the lineup hurt. No one could take up the slack for his hitting and driving in the runs when needed.
They did get Rijo for him though. So it was a great trade in the long run.

macro
02-06-2006, 01:24 PM
They fixed the pitching next year....

Yes, they did! Danny Jackson at 23-8 (and would've won the Cy Young if not for Hershiser's scoreless innings streak to end the season) and Browning at 18-5 with a perfect game! I really thought at that time, that the Reds were set at the top of the rotation for years to come. If I had been old enough, I would've thought that early in 1970 as well, though. Boy did those situations not turn out well.

:(

Back to Browning, call me crazy, but I thought he might be headed for a Hall Of Fame career after his '88 season. I never dreamed that it would be arm injuries that brought him down. If things had gone like I hoped they would, his career would've just been finishing up three or four years ago.