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TeamBoone
02-07-2006, 06:30 PM
doing a Who Dey chant during his "speech" in Pittsburgh today.

Just showed it on the local news. Hmmmm. Wonder who's rubbing it in the face of the Bengals.

redsfan30
02-07-2006, 06:51 PM
I tell ya what...this is turning into quite the rivalry before out very eyes.

I know it was a rivalry before, but now that the Bengals have chances to beat Pittsburgh, it just takes it to new heights.

TeamBoone
02-07-2006, 07:29 PM
Ken Broo (the local NBC newscaster) said "Marvin, I think this one's for you".

GAC
02-07-2006, 07:32 PM
If Cowher really said that (and I wouldn't put it past him), then it was pretty classless IMO.

TeamBoone
02-07-2006, 07:45 PM
Cower didn't say "Marvin, I think this one's for you".... the local sports caster did. I think he thought it was implied.

deltachi8
02-08-2006, 09:25 AM
Maybe it becomes a rivalry afterall?

macro
02-08-2006, 10:00 AM
I don't like seeing Cowher and some of the Pittsburgh players taunting the Bengals and their fans, but I have to admit that Chad, TJ, and even Marvin (with the "like their quarterback did" comment) probably fired the first shots. If they're gonna dish it out, then they have to be ready to hear it back from Hines, Bettis, and Cowher. Problem is, the fans of the teams feel the bite of these things when they had nothing to do with it.

If I had my druthers, Chad and TJ would never have been allowed to perform their antics (stuff with the yellow towels, comments, etc.) in the first place, but such is the modern athlete, I guess. I come from the old school where you just don't do that stuff, but I'll admit that I've probably become a fossil. In the end, it's all just entertainment, including the games themselves, so maybe I should just get used to it?

Chip R
02-08-2006, 10:05 AM
Maybe it becomes a rivalry afterall?

A hammer and a nail isn't a rivalry.

Johnny Footstool
02-08-2006, 10:13 AM
A hammer and a nail isn't a rivalry.

True. The nail doesn't usually win the division.

Chip R
02-08-2006, 10:32 AM
True. The nail doesn't usually win the division.
Just the Super Bowl.

I wonder when Jerome Bettis gets into the HOF if he'll have the Bengals defense from the 90s and the first few years of this decade to present him cause I don't think he'd be there without them. ;)

Johnny Footstool
02-08-2006, 10:35 AM
The Hammer won the Super Bowl. But this year the Nail exacted some revenge with a division championship.

Chip R
02-08-2006, 10:37 AM
The Hammer won the Super Bowl. But this year the Nail exacted some revenge with a division championship.

Yes I'm sure the Steelers were crying about that on Sunday.

Johnny Footstool
02-08-2006, 10:44 AM
I'm sure it was the farthest thing from their minds, but from the Bengals' perspective, it's an accomplishment.

Chip R
02-08-2006, 10:51 AM
I'm sure it was the farthest thing from their minds, but from the Bengals' perspective, it's an accomplishment.

I agree but when the Steelers beat them in the playoffs on their field it just kind of reiterates the point that the Steelers have dominated the Bengals over the last decade or so.

macro
02-08-2006, 11:45 AM
I agree but when the Steelers beat them in the playoffs on their field it just kind of reiterates the point that the Steelers have dominated the Bengals over the last decade or so.

Yet the Bengals have finished ahead of them in the standings in two of the past three seasons.

As for the playoff victory, and I hesitate to bring this up again, but Kimo was the team MVP for that game. Even my Steeler-fan friends admit that that win came with an asterisk. Not denying that the Steelers have had LOTS more success than the Bengals 1991-2002, just saying that that particular win may not be the best "case in point".

Chip R
02-08-2006, 12:05 PM
Yet the Bengals have finished ahead of them in the standings in two of the past three seasons.

As for the playoff victory, and I hesitate to bring this up again, but Kimo was the team MVP for that game. Even my Steeler-fan friends admit that that win came with an asterisk. Not denying that the Steelers have had LOTS more success than the Bengals 1991-2002, just saying that that particular win may not be the best "case in point".

They sure have and I'm sure the Steelers will have that inscribed on their Super Bowl rings.

SteelSD
02-08-2006, 12:25 PM
Yet the Bengals have finished ahead of them in the standings in two of the past three seasons.

As for the playoff victory, and I hesitate to bring this up again, but Kimo was the team MVP for that game. Even my Steeler-fan friends admit that that win came with an asterisk. Not denying that the Steelers have had LOTS more success than the Bengals 1991-2002, just saying that that particular win may not be the best "case in point".

You "hesitate" to bring that up again? Good lord. Bengals fans will be quite freely bringing that up for years. If the Bengals don't play up to expectations or if fans so much as perceive the slightest deviation in Palmer's skill level, mobility, or QB rating, it'll be a "Kimo sucks" whine-fest all over again.

In a league where playoff teams can flip to a 6-10 record fairly easily the next season, it's must be comforting to know that you already have a pre-built excuse if things don't go as planned for the Bengals.

Krusty
02-08-2006, 12:33 PM
One thing the Steelers showed with Indy's and Cincy's no huddle, get to the line of scrimmage and do your Mick Jagger moves while throwing out an audible here and there and taking the play clock to the full .30 seconds is defenses will wait till 10 seconds before calling their defensive schemes. In the meantime, the defense will give the quarterback so many different looks that it will confuse them.

SunDeck
02-08-2006, 12:36 PM
A rivalry is a good thing. If the Steelers now care enough to even think about the Bengals, then Marvin must be doing something right. It's a compliment to have them acknowledge the Bengals existence on a day when they should be celebrating their victory over the Seahawks.

macro
02-08-2006, 02:25 PM
They sure have and I'm sure the Steelers will have that inscribed on their Super Bowl rings.

No, they won't, but while you're hyping their dominance, I was just pointing out that, over the past three seasons, it hasn't completely the case, that's all.

macro
02-08-2006, 02:39 PM
You "hesitate" to bring that up again? Good lord. Bengals fans will be quite freely bringing that up for years. If the Bengals don't play up to expectations or if fans so much as perceive the slightest deviation in Palmer's skill level, mobility, or QB rating, it'll be a "Kimo sucks" whine-fest all over again.

In a league where playoff teams can flip to a 6-10 record fairly easily the next season, it's must be comforting to know that you already have a pre-built excuse if things don't go as planned for the Bengals.

Yes, I hesitated to bring it up again, because I realized that it may lead to another pissing match. I apologize for even mentioning it. As for it being a built-in excuse for future failures, I'm sure you're right. Every team has it share of fans who will whine and make excuses, and the Bengals are no different. For what it's worth, though, I was speaking of that one game only.

Chip R
02-08-2006, 02:50 PM
No, they won't, but while you're hyping their dominance, I was just pointing out that, over the past three seasons, it hasn't completely the case, that's all.

I'm not hyping anything. All I'm pointing out is that over the last decade or so, the Steelers have dominated the Bengals. I'm no Steelers fan but it should be obvious to even the most myopic Bengal fan that the Steelers have dominated that series. Even over the last 3 years they have only been 2-5 against them - 2-4 if you don't want to count the playoff game. That is about as much of a rivalry as Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner. If you don't believe me, check out the Bengals' web site and see for yourself. Sure, the Bengals have improved and they actually beat the Steelers once this year. But that doesn't put them on the Steelers' level yet. When the Bengals start dominating the Steelers like the Steelers have dominated them, then it might be a rivalry. But until that time, if you're talking rivalry, talk about the Browns.

http://www.bengals.com/team/history/alltime_results.asp

MWM
02-08-2006, 04:08 PM
Bush League hing for Cowher to do, but not surprising.

TeamBoone
02-08-2006, 07:02 PM
If the Bengals don't play up to expectations or if fans so much as perceive the slightest deviation in Palmer's skill level, mobility, or QB rating, it'll be a "Kimo sucks" whine-fest all over again.

If a Bengal player had done that to Big Ben, you'd be whining too.

It's not like it's a minor injury.

Cedric
02-08-2006, 08:18 PM
One thing the Steelers showed with Indy's and Cincy's no huddle, get to the line of scrimmage and do your Mick Jagger moves while throwing out an audible here and there and taking the play clock to the full .30 seconds is defenses will wait till 10 seconds before calling their defensive schemes. In the meantime, the defense will give the quarterback so many different looks that it will confuse them.

The Steelers showed NOTHING on how to stop Carson Palmer. The best Qb in the NFL. It's funny how people argue now that Carson has such great weapons and such a dominant line. It's total bs. TJ was one of the most hated players on the team before Carson. The line was maligned and blamed for Kitna holding onto the ball.

Cedric
02-08-2006, 08:20 PM
I'm not hyping anything. All I'm pointing out is that over the last decade or so, the Steelers have dominated the Bengals. I'm no Steelers fan but it should be obvious to even the most myopic Bengal fan that the Steelers have dominated that series. Even over the last 3 years they have only been 2-5 against them - 2-4 if you don't want to count the playoff game. That is about as much of a rivalry as Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner. If you don't believe me, check out the Bengals' web site and see for yourself. Sure, the Bengals have improved and they actually beat the Steelers once this year. But that doesn't put them on the Steelers' level yet. When the Bengals start dominating the Steelers like the Steelers have dominated them, then it might be a rivalry. But until that time, if you're talking rivalry, talk about the Browns.

http://www.bengals.com/team/history/alltime_results.asp


So it's only a rivalry when one team dominates another?

SteelSD
02-08-2006, 10:16 PM
If a Bengal player had done that to Big Ben, you'd be whining too.

It's not like it's a minor injury.

TB, a Bengals player DID run into Ben's knee. Just like Kimo, it wasn't on purpose and not only didn't I whine about it, I didn't think there should have been a penalty called on the play and I thought it was immature for Roethlisberger to act like it was a dirty hit post-game.

BigRed
02-08-2006, 10:46 PM
All I can say is that Mr. Cowher has put some pretty big bulletin board material for Marvin to use next year. With a healthy Palmer, free agency, and another good draft, he should be eating those words next year. Forget the past, the Bengals must be the Steelers' biggest rival or else why would Cowher take the time on his biggest day ever in football to take a shot at them.

Fil3232
02-08-2006, 10:57 PM
I'm not hyping anything. All I'm pointing out is that over the last decade or so, the Steelers have dominated the Bengals. I'm no Steelers fan but it should be obvious to even the most myopic Bengal fan that the Steelers have dominated that series. Even over the last 3 years they have only been 2-5 against them - 2-4 if you don't want to count the playoff game. That is about as much of a rivalry as Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner. If you don't believe me, check out the Bengals' web site and see for yourself. Sure, the Bengals have improved and they actually beat the Steelers once this year. But that doesn't put them on the Steelers' level yet. When the Bengals start dominating the Steelers like the Steelers have dominated them, then it might be a rivalry. But until that time, if you're talking rivalry, talk about the Browns.

http://www.bengals.com/team/history/alltime_results.asp

Was Michigan-Ohio St. not a rivalry in the '90s when Cooper was around? How about now with Tressel turning the tables on Michigan and winning 4 out of 5? I think your classification of a rivalry is a bit skewed.

Chip R
02-09-2006, 12:33 AM
So it's only a rivalry when one team dominates another?
No, just the opposite. You Bengal fans really think that the Steelers see you as their big rival? They see you as a pest, an annoyance, a fly buzzing about their faces that they could swat down anytime they liked. Perhaps when the Bengals start winning more than they lose against the Steelers then they might see it as a rivalry. But you have to do better than 2-5 A.M. (After Marvin). I have no doubt that Bengals fans see the Steelers as a rival. Just like every team in the NFC East views Dallas as their big rival. Or like everyone in the AFC West sees the Raiders as their big rival. But do Dallas and the Raiders see those teams as their rivals? Some yes, some no. To be a true rivalry, it has to be mutual. You know why Cowher did that? Not because the Bengals are the Steelers great and powerful rivals, but he wanted to poke some fun at Bengal Fan's expense knowing they would react exactly the way they are reacting now. You think Cowher doesn't know that his remarks could be used as motivation? He's smart enough to know - as is Marvin - that if the Bengals need a bulletin board to get up for the Steelers, there's something seriously wrong with them.

Krusty
02-09-2006, 12:53 AM
Cowher's won-lost record speaks for itself. Add to that he has taken the Steelers to six AFC championships and two Super Bowls in 14 years.

The coach is Hall of Fame material.

SteelSD
02-09-2006, 12:59 AM
The Steelers showed NOTHING on how to stop Carson Palmer. The best Qb in the NFL. It's funny how people argue now that Carson has such great weapons and such a dominant line. It's total bs. TJ was one of the most hated players on the team before Carson. The line was maligned and blamed for Kitna holding onto the ball.

C'mon Ced.

Palmer posted two games in 2005 in which his QB rating was below 86.0. Pittsburgh was one of them (58.3). Palmer is an excellent QB but is neither invincible or infallable. As with any QB, the right gameplan from the right team can make him look bad.

Secondly, the Cinci offense has a bunch of top-notch skill weapons. Charles Johnson, Rudi Johnson, Housh, Henry (well, he's stupid, but skilled), etc. I hardly see how Housh was "hated" considering that he was mostly a backup during his first two seasons and didn't even really play in 2003. The guy has approached 1000 yards each of the past two seasons. Yeah. He sucks.

The Bengals offensive line isn't the best in the game from a pass blocking perspective, but their deficiencies rarely come into play because Lewis and Co. have designed the offense to allow Palmer to release the ball quickly. They can execute that gameplan because they have receivers able get open (that's a BIG DEAL) to pick up a goodly number of yards after the catch and because Palmer is an accurate QB. And that O-Line better be able to pass block at least a little bit considering that Palmer is nearly the textbook definition of "Pocket Passer".

I hardly see how they don't run block well unless you think that Rudi Johnson is some kind of slicing scatback who needs only a sliver of daylight to break big runs. But no. The guy needs legit holes to pick up over 1,450 yards a season and the line provides them.

Carson Palmer is a heck of a good QB, but that offense isn't "Carson Palmer and 10 Stiffs". It's not even close.

Fil3232
02-09-2006, 01:43 AM
No, just the opposite. You Bengal fans really think that the Steelers see you as their big rival? They see you as a pest, an annoyance, a fly buzzing about their faces that they could swat down anytime they liked. Perhaps when the Bengals start winning more than they lose against the Steelers then they might see it as a rivalry. But you have to do better than 2-5 A.M. (After Marvin). I have no doubt that Bengals fans see the Steelers as a rival. Just like every team in the NFC East views Dallas as their big rival. Or like everyone in the AFC West sees the Raiders as their big rival. But do Dallas and the Raiders see those teams as their rivals? Some yes, some no. To be a true rivalry, it has to be mutual. You know why Cowher did that? Not because the Bengals are the Steelers great and powerful rivals, but he wanted to poke some fun at Bengal Fan's expense knowing they would react exactly the way they are reacting now. You think Cowher doesn't know that his remarks could be used as motivation? He's smart enough to know - as is Marvin - that if the Bengals need a bulletin board to get up for the Steelers, there's something seriously wrong with them.

If it isn't mutual it sure as hell is about to be. Pittsburgh would be ignorant to think the Bengals are going anywhere as long as Lewis is at the helms and Palmer is able to regain form. Yeah, the rivalry might not have the history of Browns-Steelers but the future looks about as bright as any rivalry the NFL has to offer.

And as a point of reference, Denver and Oakland, widely considered one of the best rivalries in the league has an all-time series of 54-37-2 in favor of OAK. That 40.6% winning percentage Denver sports is lower than the Bengals' 40.8% all-time win percentage against the Steelers.

Cedric
02-09-2006, 01:43 AM
TJ is a good player. The point is that he became that great player when he actually had a QB that can spread the ball around and get the ball out quickly. I'm not making up the Tj stuff, he was hated around here. He made bone headed plays with punts and dropped passes. I'm just saying a great Qb makes the whole team better.

And I think it's alot of both. It's not just WR's getting open, it's Carson's unique vision and their ability. Wasn't it downright amazing how much pressure Kitna seemed to be under when he came into the game? Wasn't it amazing how Lebeau and the Pittsburgh defense was supposed to have adjusted during that game, suddenly Chad and Tj were covered for the first time all year? It was all about Carson being gone.

In my opinion.

SteelSD
02-09-2006, 02:21 AM
TJ is a good player. The point is that he became that great player when he actually had a QB that can spread the ball around and get the ball out quickly. I'm not making up the Tj stuff, he was hated around here. He made bone headed plays with punts and dropped passes. I'm just saying a great Qb makes the whole team better.

And I think it's alot of both. It's not just WR's getting open, it's Carson's unique vision and their ability. Wasn't it downright amazing how much pressure Kitna seemed to be under when he came into the game? Wasn't it amazing how Lebeau and the Pittsburgh defense was supposed to have adjusted during that game, suddenly Chad and Tj were covered for the first time all year? It was all about Carson being gone.

In my opinion.

I hate to tell you this, Ced, but Chad Johnson put up 1,355 yards in 2003 and his Yards per Catch totals in 2002 and 2003 with Jon Kitna at the helm were the highest of his career. CJ caught 4, 5, and 4 passes in the three games against Pitt this year (0 TD's). He specifially complimented Ike Taylor after the first game- which was high highest Yards output versus Pitt this season.

Again, I think Palmer is a heck of a QB. I just think you're not giving the rest of the Bengals offense enough credit. They're a very skilled group. If they weren't, that defense would have put them below .500 this season.

GAC
02-09-2006, 08:24 AM
C'mon Ced.

Palmer posted two games in 2005 in which his QB rating was below 86.0. Pittsburgh was one of them (58.3).

Ah C'mon. Tell us who the other team was. :lol:

Hint: They gave him his worst QB rating in the entire season. ;)

Yachtzee
02-09-2006, 08:33 AM
If the Head Coach spends time in his Super Bowl speech to the fans starting a cheer to take a dig at an opponent they faced a month ago, I'd say that team views it as a rivalry.

SunDeck
02-09-2006, 10:09 AM
With a healthy Palmer...

That's huge, folks. The guy's knee was turned into jello and there's no guarantee he's the same QB next year. If not, can be drop and hurl like Dan Marino?

CP has age on his side. It is said he has the will to come back. But, if you ask me, it's presumptuous to predict he'll be healthy next year. I will be on pins and needles until I see him take some game hits. It's a long offseason.

ochre
02-09-2006, 10:15 AM
If Willis McGahee can recover from the knee injury he suffered, and suit up for an NFL team as a starting RB, Palmer should be fine. That of course is dependant on him working his butt off in rehab.

Chip R
02-09-2006, 10:40 AM
If Willis McGahee can recover from the knee injury he suffered, and suit up for an NFL team as a starting RB, Palmer should be fine. That of course is dependant on him working his butt off in rehab.

Hopefully he will. But McGahee had to sit out almost a year before he came back. Most people think Palmer won't be available to start the regular season. It could be like the Griffey watch of a few years ago. When will he come back? Can he play next week? What is the doc not telling us? Is the doc who operated on Palmer a quack? Carson is not your savior? ;) Not to mention that Kitna may leave via free agency which leaves the Bengals with the magic that is Doug Johnson and Craig Krenzel. And the #2 receiver may be doing some time. Plus the defense is still Swiss cheese and they have a way tougher schedule than this year. They may do good just to finish 9-7. If I'm Marvin Lewis, I'm not getting much sleep at night.

SunDeck
02-09-2006, 10:48 AM
If Willis McGahee can recover from the knee injury he suffered, and suit up for an NFL team as a starting RB, Palmer should be fine. That of course is dependant on him working his butt off in rehab.
I grant that it's possible, but what mix of surgical skill, genetics, attitude, planetary alignment and dumb luck ensures a complete and successful rehab? Different bodies, different results are possible, but I hope your are right, Ochre.

Cedric
02-09-2006, 11:02 AM
Hopefully he will. But McGahee had to sit out almost a year before he came back. Most people think Palmer won't be available to start the regular season. It could be like the Griffey watch of a few years ago. When will he come back? Can he play next week? What is the doc not telling us? Is the doc who operated on Palmer a quack? Carson is not your savior? ;) Not to mention that Kitna may leave via free agency which leaves the Bengals with the magic that is Doug Johnson and Craig Krenzel. And the #2 receiver may be doing some time. Plus the defense is still Swiss cheese and they have a way tougher schedule than this year. They may do good just to finish 9-7. If I'm Marvin Lewis, I'm not getting much sleep at night.

And you know all this before free agency even starts? I guess the "Swiss cheese" defense won't have any upgrades in the offseason? I guess I should just not worry about next year, it's over already.

Henry isn't the #2 WR either.

SteelSD
02-09-2006, 11:05 AM
Ah C'mon. Tell us who the other team was. :lol:

Hint: They gave him his worst QB rating in the entire season. ;)

That would be the illustrious Cleveland Browns. While not sacking Palmer, they held him to full-game season lows of 93 Yards passing and a 48.1 completion percentage.

Chip R
02-09-2006, 11:32 AM
And you know all this before free agency even starts? I guess the "Swiss cheese" defense won't have any upgrades in the offseason? I guess I should just not worry about next year, it's over already.

Henry isn't the #2 WR either.

Besides Henry not being the #2 receiver, what part of that wasn't accurate? Should the Bengals start selling playoff tickets for next season now? It's tough to fix a defense in one season, ask the Colts about that. And I didn't say their season was over just that they have some problems that need to be addressed if they want to continue being a good team. Even if Kitna comes back are you comfortable with him running the offense? After all the Bengals fans who weren't blaming Kimo and the refs for the playoff loss were blaming Kitna.

Tony Cloninger
02-09-2006, 11:32 AM
All this over a lame chant? The Who-Dey chant is cheesy and emberrassing to be honest with you. Why not a disco song....like the Chargers had in the late 70's?

Who cares about chants.....all i want is wins from the Bengals.
PITT had their Bengals like decades in the 50's and 60's..... then began dominating in 1972. Their only brief respites had been in the late 80's and early 90s.... until Cowher showed up in 1992.

The PITT way is uncanny how they can plug in players and replace FA at will.
How is it that LeBeau could not develop a dominant defense with Cincy from 1984-1991 and then when he came back in 1997?

I mean it was the same scheme....................and his defenses, AFTER finishing NO. 1 in NFL in total defense in 1983..... went down to dead last by 1985... with basically the same players ( minus Jim LeClair and Ken Riley)


Just like us Reds fans want this org. to develop their own players and either look to the OAK or ATL model on how to draft/develop.......me as a Bengal fan for 30 years wants this org. to look at PITT and get it done the same way.
There is no excuse not to. Same family owner/small market/bad stadium type BS that MB spouted in the 90's...... PITT had same situation but did not whine about it.
They just hired a coach with balls .... who the players knew had control.
Plus having a legit GM and Director of Player Personnel.... Not Jim Lippin-whatever ( a high school coach??! ) as your Director of Player Personnel.
That was worse than hiring Dan O'Brien.

Cedric
02-09-2006, 12:57 PM
Besides Henry not being the #2 receiver, what part of that wasn't accurate? Should the Bengals start selling playoff tickets for next season now? It's tough to fix a defense in one season, ask the Colts about that. And I didn't say their season was over just that they have some problems that need to be addressed if they want to continue being a good team. Even if Kitna comes back are you comfortable with him running the offense? After all the Bengals fans who weren't blaming Kimo and the refs for the playoff loss were blaming Kitna.

The Bengals best defensive player played one game this year. People forget that. They aren't that far from having an adequate enough defense. I wouldn't predict records before free agency and the draft.

Tony Cloninger
02-09-2006, 01:20 PM
Cedric...i have to disagree..... MW is a good player...might become an All-Pro but he is not going to make this defense any better without another safety to help.....another CB to start and 1 more to help in nickel.

1 pass rushing DE that is consistent and someone to replace a wearing down Brian Simmons.

They need at least 3 to 5 more players for this defense to be good.
At least 3 to be average and not scare you when your team has a lead.

ochre
02-09-2006, 02:07 PM
All this over a lame chant? The Who-Dey chant is cheesy and emberrassing to be honest with you. Why not a disco song....like the Chargers had in the late 70's?

Who cares about chants.....all i want is wins from the Bengals.
PITT had their Bengals like decades in the 50's and 60's..... then began dominating in 1972. Their only brief respites had been in the late 80's and early 90s.... until Cowher showed up in 1992.

The PITT way is uncanny how they can plug in players and replace FA at will.
How is it that LeBeau could not develop a dominant defense with Cincy from 1984-1991 and then when he came back in 1997?

I mean it was the same scheme....................and his defenses, AFTER finishing NO. 1 in NFL in total defense in 1983..... went down to dead last by 1985... with basically the same players ( minus Jim LeClair and Ken Riley)


Just like us Reds fans want this org. to develop their own players and either look to the OAK or ATL model on how to draft/develop.......me as a Bengal fan for 30 years wants this org. to look at PITT and get it done the same way.
There is no excuse not to. Same family owner/small market/bad stadium type BS that MB spouted in the 90's...... PITT had same situation but did not whine about it.
They just hired a coach with balls .... who the players knew had control.
Plus having a legit GM and Director of Player Personnel.... Not Jim Lippin-whatever ( a high school coach??! ) as your Director of Player Personnel.
That was worse than hiring Dan O'Brien.
I'm not sure LeBeau has ever 'developed' a defense.:) He's done pretty well with some that he has inherited though. Seems to be a good in game adjustment/gameplanner though.

Cedric
02-09-2006, 02:13 PM
Cedric...i have to disagree..... MW is a good player...might become an All-Pro but he is not going to make this defense any better without another safety to help.....another CB to start and 1 more to help in nickel.

1 pass rushing DE that is consistent and someone to replace a wearing down Brian Simmons.

They need at least 3 to 5 more players for this defense to be good.
At least 3 to be average and not scare you when your team has a lead.

I'm saying you take the best player out of any defense and it's hard to replace. I'm not at all saying they don't need work. It can be fixed this off season.

Matt700wlw
02-09-2006, 02:33 PM
I agree but when the Steelers beat them in the playoffs on their field it just kind of reiterates the point that the Steelers have dominated the Bengals over the last decade or so.

The reason they beat the Bengals in playoffs comes down to the Bengals second offensive play of the game...

Chip R
02-09-2006, 02:35 PM
The reason they beat the Bengals in playoffs comes down to the Bengals second offensive play of the game...

Refresh my memory. What was the score at halftime?

Tony Cloninger
02-09-2006, 02:36 PM
Then they need a big time draft..... a 1974 PITT Steelers or 1986 SF 49'ers type draft. Where they get 4-6 starters who are Pro-Bowl types.

Do not expect any big time FA signing at all. Not with 4 OL up for contracts after 2006. That is just as important.......... i remember the Klinger days of relying on patchwork OL and the magic of their OL coach, Jim McNally i think was his name. They thought he could turn 6th-7th and Undrafted rookie FA into Max Montoya's or Joe Walters.

Tony Cloninger
02-09-2006, 02:49 PM
Chip...... if Mario Soto was pitching game 7 of a championship series and he was hurt on a line drive off the first pitch of the game....and in comes Bob Owchinko.....or Tim Birstas to pitch, what would the odds be of the Reds winning that game in the end?

Jon Kitna= Dieter Brock type arm strength. He was going to get exposed in the end. The Bengals needed firepower from their QB to keep up with their inept defense. No sure thing they would have won with Palmer but odds were a lot better for sure.

Chip R
02-09-2006, 03:07 PM
Chip...... if Mario Soto was pitching game 7 of a championship series and he was hurt on a line drive off the first pitch of the game....and in comes Bob Owchinko.....or Tim Birstas to pitch, what would the odds be of the Reds winning that game in the end?

Jon Kitna= Dieter Brock type arm strength. He was going to get exposed in the end. The Bengals needed firepower from their QB to keep up with their inept defense. No sure thing they would have won with Palmer but odds were a lot better for sure.

Odds would not be as good. But they actually managed to lead the Steelers at the half so they must have been doing something right despite Kitna, yes? And if you believe that Kitna was the problem, then you better be praying every night that Palmer comes back by the first game next year or else the Bengals are doomed since they can't win without Palmer.

Tony, you said it yourself. The defense was not good enough to stop PIT. A team with a good defense could have had a Kitna at QB and had a better chance of beating PIT. They may not have won but the defense was the biggest factor why they lost that game. Palmer might have helped but he might have played like he did in the first game they played this year.

Before you bury Kitna, remember this: In succession Pittsburgh the league's second-highest scoring team, Indianapolis, averaging 27.4 points, to 18 points; the league's seventh-highest scoring team, Denver, averaging 24.7 points, to 17 points; the league's highest-scoring team, Seattle, averaging 28.2 points, to 10 points. And it was just Kitna's fault?

Matt700wlw
02-09-2006, 03:14 PM
Refresh my memory. What was the score at halftime?

It's a lot easier to make halftime adjustments against Jon Kitna than it is against Carson Palmer.

Making Kitna beat you is a lot easier than making Carson beat you.

Of course, I still don't know why they abandoned the run..... :dunno:

MWM
02-09-2006, 03:15 PM
Come on, Chip. You're basically saying great players make no difference. Who the hell knows if the Bengals would have won had Palmer not been hurt. I'm not suggesting they would have, but there's no doubt it would have been a different game altogether. There's no more validity to the notion that they still would have lost thatn there is to they would have won. But you're saying that beause Kitna played adequately in the first half, that somehow invalidates any notion that Palmer would have made a difference. The guy is one of the best players in the NFL. They make a difference, a HUGE difference (see the Steelers without Big be this year).

Kitan is not very good. Just because he played OK for a couple of quarters doesn't mean he's good, because he's not. Palmer would have made a difference, period. Whether that would have been enough, I don't know nor does anyone else. It's pure speculation. Your case isn't any better than those saying the Bengals would have won. Both are equally speculative.

Matt700wlw
02-09-2006, 03:31 PM
does anyone else. It's pure speculation. Your case isn't any better than those saying the Bengals would have won. Both are equally speculative.

You're right, my view is speculative (saying Carson's injury is why they lost), but I truely believe it...I felt something that day, something special...the same thing I felt in 2003 against the undefeated Chiefs. That feeling that you just know you're team is going to win. However, had the Steelers beat the Bengals best shot, this wouldn't hurt so much.

Chip R
02-09-2006, 03:34 PM
Come on, Chip. You're basically saying great players make no difference. Who the hell knows if the Bengals would have won had Palmer not been hurt.

Matt said the game was over when he got hurt. Did you stop watching the game after Palmer was hurt? If you believed the game was over when that happened, why didn't you just stop watching? Matt doesn't know if Palmer would have made the difference, nor do you or I since, as far as I know, none of us can foretell the future. Would Palmer given the Bengals a better chance? Sure but it's not from a sure thing that the Bengals would have won like so many Bengals fans believe.

You're a stats guy, MWM. Look at those stats. The Steelers held 3 top offenses to well below their season averages for scoring. Those offenses included Shawn Alexander, the NFL MVP and Peyton Manning last year's MVP. Not exactly a bunch of stiffs, wouldn't you say? Yet you and other Bengals fans want to blame Kitna for the loss? I know it pains you and other Bengals fans to do it but give PIT's defense a little credit in that victory.

MWM
02-09-2006, 03:42 PM
Chip, you got me curious so I went back and looked in more detail at the game summary. Again, I'm not trying to suggest the Bengals would have won, but when you look at the facts it paints a little different picture than the one you're painting. You're basing your analysis of the Bengals defense as the problem based on reputation and what they did the last part of the year, not on how they played that game. In reality, the Bengals defense wasn't all that bad in that particualr game. The Steelers only had 346 total yards.

The problem in the second half was that the Bengals offense couldn't stay on the field. It's not that the defesne was all that bad and they got ran over. I think people just assume that to be the case because it's the Bengals. The first drive for the Bengals in the second half was 11 plays and 43 yards for 5 minutes. After that drive, they ran all of 19 plays for a grand total of 33 yards. It's kind of silly to think it wouldn't have been different with Palmer. I watched, Kitna was bad. Had the Bengals been able to mount any kind of sustained drive in he second half, that means the Bengals D is not on the field as much as they were and the score is most liekly closer down the stretch.

The problem in that game was the offense as much as it was the defense. The fact is, no matter how you slic it, Palmer is better than Kitna. It's not a leap of faith to think the offense would have been better with Palmer running show. Would that have been eough? Who knows, all we can do is guess. But it's perfectly logical to conclude the Bengals would have played much better on offense.

MWM
02-09-2006, 03:52 PM
Matt said the game was over when he got hurt. Did you stop watching the game after Palmer was hurt?

I was chatting over on ochre's site during the game. It can be verified that said the game was over the second Palmer was carted off the field. I knew going in it would probably be close. If I were a betting man, I would have steered clear of that game. I never thought the Bengals would surely win. I thought they had a chance, that's it. But I knew they had NO CHANCE at all with Kitna at the helm. None. Even when they were ahead at the half, I knew the game was over. Of course I didn't stop watching. What does that have to diwht anything? Are you going to watch the Reds this year even though you know they have no chance to win?

And I certainly think the Steeler defense deserves some credit. They're areally good defense. But what they did AFTER the game in question has no bearance on what happened in THAT game. These two teams play each other twice every year. There were no secrets. All I'm suggesting is that it is almost a certainty the Bengals offense would have played better.


Yet you and other Bengals fans want to blame Kitna for the loss?

Yet you and other Bengal haters want to act like Kitna made no difference at all. Of course, the Pitt defense gets credit, but it's silly not to at least acknowledge that they were facing an inferior product than what otherwise would have been. That's all I'm suggesting. Do you at least admit that Kitna is inferior to Palmer?

Chip R
02-09-2006, 04:19 PM
I was chatting over on ochre's site during the game. It can be verified that said the game was over the second Palmer was carted off the field. I knew going in it would probably be close. If I were a betting man, I would have steered clear of that game. I never thought the Bengals would surely win. I thought they had a chance, that's it. But I knew they had NO CHANCE at all with Kitna at the helm. None. Even when they were ahead at the half, I knew the game was over. Of course I didn't stop watching. What does that have to diwht anything? Are you going to watch the Reds this year even though you know they have no chance to win?

And I certainly think the Steeler defense deserves some credit. They're areally good defense. But what they did AFTER the game in question has no bearance on what happened in THAT game. These two teams play each other twice every year. There were no secrets. All I'm suggesting is that it is almost a certainty the Bengals offense would have played better.

Yet you and other Bengal haters want to act like Kitna made no difference at all. Of course, the Pitt defense gets credit, but it's silly not to at least acknowledge that they were facing an inferior product than what otherwise would have been. That's all I'm suggesting. Do you at least admit that Kitna is inferior to Palmer?

Me, a Bengal hater? Come now, Mike, is that the best you can do? I come on here and present facts and you act like I sit at home and throw darts at my Marvin Lewis dartboard. Just because I'm not a Bengals fan doesn't mean I hate them. I'm not the one spouting hate here. That's Bengal Fan, not me. I had Palmer on my fantasy team this year. You think I wasn't rooting for him?

I'm glad you finally want to give some credit to the Steelers. The Bengal offense may have played better with Palmer at the helm but it's no sure thing. All I'm saying is that PIT held an Indy team with Peyton Manning, Edgerrin James and Marvin Harrison who was playing at home to below their average. They held the 7th highest scoring team in Denver who was also playing at home to below their average. Then they played Seattle with MVP Shawn Alexander and held them under their average. It stands to reason they would have held the Bengals - even if Carson was playing - to below their average. Then again Carson may have hung 40 on them, you never know. If you believe Kitna is an inferior QB to Palmer, then it stands to reason that he would not do as well against the Steelers as Palmer may have. I'm not saying Kitna is a Pro Bowl QB but just that the PIT defense may have had something to do with how bad he looked. He may have gotten away with the way he played against Houston or Detroit or even Cleveland. But against the Steelers he didn't have as much margin for error.

traderumor
02-09-2006, 04:21 PM
Matt said the game was over when he got hurt. Did you stop watching the game after Palmer was hurt? If you believed the game was over when that happened, why didn't you just stop watching? Matt doesn't know if Palmer would have made the difference, nor do you or I since, as far as I know, none of us can foretell the future. Would Palmer given the Bengals a better chance? Sure but it's not from a sure thing that the Bengals would have won like so many Bengals fans believe.

You're a stats guy, MWM. Look at those stats. The Steelers held 3 top offenses to well below their season averages for scoring. Those offenses included Shawn Alexander, the NFL MVP and Peyton Manning last year's MVP. Not exactly a bunch of stiffs, wouldn't you say? Yet you and other Bengals fans want to blame Kitna for the loss? I know it pains you and other Bengals fans to do it but give PIT's defense a little credit in that victory.

I haven't seen Bengals fans blaming Kitna for the loss. I've seen Bengals fans recognize that Kitna is about three rungs down on the ladder from Carson Palmer as a QB. Kitna is a mediocre QB with an average arm and above average QB smarts. Of course, the Pittsburgh D is good, but Palmer did very well with that same D at Heinz Field (well, here come Steel to point out how poorly he did at PB Stadium in game 1 between the two teams, Hi Steel ;) ).

Johnny Footstool
02-09-2006, 04:37 PM
My friends and I call Kitna "The Commodore" for two reasons. The first reason: he looks like a career navy man with that buzz cut. The second reason: Much like 70's funk icons The Commodores, when he's good, he's very good, but when he's bad, he's horrible. When he's on, he's "Brick House," but most of the time, he's "Three Times a Lady."

gonelong
02-09-2006, 04:39 PM
Odds would not be as good. But they actually managed to lead the Steelers at the half so they must have been doing something right despite Kitna, yes?

You don't win games by playing a 1/2 of football.

The Steelers made the Bengals offense irrelevant in the 2nd half by taking away the underneath pass. Kitna does not have enough zip or accuraccy on his longer throws to be considered a real threat. If you do that against Palmer you will get lit up like a Christmas tree more often than not.

I doubt you could find a Bengals fan alive that would have taken a 17-14 lead at half with Kitna at the controls over a 0-0 with Palmer under center. Not a one. Zero. Zip. Nada.


And if you believe that Kitna was the problem, then you better be praying every night that Palmer comes back by the first game next year or else the Bengals are doomed since they can't win without Palmer.

Kitna played a very good first half, and then a completely useless 2nd half. He was a large part of the problem, no question.

I'd say everyone in Bengaltown says their prayers every night that Palmer comes back 100% by the first game next year. I'll be totally stunned if the Bengals make the playoffs without Palmer playing at 95+% in at least 12-14 of the games.

Jon Kitna's is not a quarterback that I want on the field if I am hoping to go deep in the playoffs. He is just to easy too shut-down. You would have heard the same analysis from me the year he went to the pro bowl. I was estatic when Palmer was named the starter.

Still, Kitna seems to have quite a bit of value as a mentor, and he is fine as a backup QB IMO. The bottom 1/4 of the league is STARTING flotsam.

I don't expect the Bengals to make the playoffs next year, with or without Palmer, as I don't expect Palmer to be 100% early in the year even if he is playing. They might suprise me as Palmer could be farther along than I'll give him credit for, and a nice draft/FA class coupled with the return of Williams and a year of maturation for Thurman and Pollack could make the defense quite a bit more stout.

GL

traderumor
02-09-2006, 04:39 PM
My friends and I call Kitna "The Commodore" for two reasons. The first reason: he looks like a career navy man with that buzz cut. The second reason: Much like 70's funk icons The Commodores, when he's good, he's very good, but when he's bad, he's horrible. When he's on, he's "Brick House," but most of the time, he's "Three Times a Lady."

Or as Buckwheat sang "Dee Dimes a Mady"

MWM
02-09-2006, 04:48 PM
What do you mean *finally*? I never didn't want to give them credit. They were my fantasy defense all year and high draft pick for me. I knew they're good. My point, and the only point I was ever trying to make, is that it's perfectly logical to think that a QB the caliber of Palmer would have made a significant impact on the game. You seem to be position the argument that Pitt's defense is good, therefore the quality of QB makes no difference. It does.

And I'm with gonelong, without Palmer the Bengals have little chance to do much of anything next year. But I do think the defense will be much better.

GAC
02-09-2006, 07:21 PM
That would be the illustrious Cleveland Browns. While not sacking Palmer, they held him to full-game season lows of 93 Yards passing and a 48.1 completion percentage.

And a QB Rating of 53.5 (his lowest) :D

deltachi8
02-14-2006, 09:17 AM
Maybe the "re-match" comes sooner rather than later:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06045/654912.stm


Steelers playing in Thursday opener
Tuesday, February 14, 2006

By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette



As part of the treasure the Steelers earned with their Super Bowl victory, the NFL will open the 2006 season with a nationally televised night game Sept. 7 in Pittsburgh.

This will be the fourth time the NFL has staged a Thursday night, one-game kickoff to the season. It will be the first NFL telecast of a regular-season game on NBC since that network was replaced in 1998 by CBS, the network for the AFC.

An opponent will be selected later, but the league will try to pair the most attractive team on the Steelers' home schedule. Among the possibilities are Cincinnati, the AFC North Division champ who lost in the first round of the playoffs to the Steelers, and Denver, who lost the AFC championship game to them.

The NFL also holds various events around the game.

"Expectations are there will be kickoff events in conjunction with the game in Pittsburgh," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said.

The past two years the game was held in Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, Mass., with Elton John playing the venue two years ago, and Green Day and Ozzy Osbourne last year. The Thursday night kickoff became a tradition in Tampa Bay in 2002, when the defending Super Bowl champion Buccaneers played the New York Jets.

The NFL will follow the Thursday night opener with a full schedule of games Sunday. Aiello said the NFL also may schedule a Monday night doubleheader to close out kickoff weekend.

He also confirmed that the league is discussing a regular-season game that would be played in London next season.

macro
02-14-2006, 11:19 AM
...the league will try to pair the most attractive team on the Steelers' home schedule. Among the possibilities are Cincinnati, the AFC North Division champ who lost in the first round of the playoffs to the Steelers, and Denver, who lost the AFC championship game to them.

I really don't see it being Cincinnati. The schedule is released in April, and there will be no way to know if Palmer will be ready for the season opener at that time. I really don't think they want to have Pittsburgh hosting a team that has David Klingler or somebody at quarterback for the season opener. I'm guessing it will be Denver.

Tony Cloninger
02-14-2006, 11:27 AM
I think the Bengals should look at signing QB Brian Griese.

He could really help if CP is not ready by the season opener.

I still say that if rehab goes well CP should be ready to play though.

Just make sure he wears leg braces made of kryptonite.

Chip R
02-14-2006, 11:30 AM
I think the Bengals should look at signing QB Brian Griese.

He could really help if CP is not ready by the season opener.

I still say that if rehab goes well CP should be ready to play though.

Just make sure he wears leg braces made of kryptonite.

Remember what happened the last time they hired the son of a Miami Dolphins' legend? ;)

dsmith421
02-14-2006, 11:34 AM
And a QB Rating of 53.5 (his lowest) :D

Again, what was the final score of that game?

I seem to recall the sainted Ben Roethlisberger running up a rating in the 20s in the Super Bowl. Maybe he should send his ring back.

deltachi8
02-14-2006, 11:37 AM
I really don't see it being Cincinnati. The schedule is released in April, and there will be no way to know if Palmer will be ready for the season opener at that time. I really don't think they want to have Pittsburgh hosting a team that has David Klingler or somebody at quarterback for the season opener. I'm guessing it will be Denver.

You may be right about Denver. Looking at he the PIT home schedule, CIN and DEN are the only real attractive matchups :

Baltimore
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Denver
Kansas City
New Orleans
Tampa Bay
Miami

They have some good road games with SD, ATL (for TV purposes), JAX and CAR, but the NFL will keep them at home.

FWIW, I think Palmer is back for the opener.

remdog
02-14-2006, 11:53 AM
I can't believe someone else actually remembers Dieter Brock! :laugh:

Rem

Tony Cloninger
02-14-2006, 12:03 PM
I was 18 when he was here in LA with the Rams in 1985.

Having an OL with about 3 All-Pro's .... and Eric Dickerson as RB really helped
protect him.

Back then..... i just looked at stats and thought he read as a pretty decent QB. But he was basically a Virgil Carter w/o the running speed.

Rams fans could not stand him. He could not throw deep at all.

IF CP cannot play for the first 3-4 games, and even if he does...it would behoove this team to draft another RB who has James Brooks-Lionel james type speed/talent...to help move the offense. Maybe in the 5th through 7th rounds.