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TRF
02-21-2006, 11:51 AM
Interesting article.

Mike Marshall fashions himself a baseball pariah. The 63-year-old former ironman pitcher -- who in 1974 pitched in 208 innings over 106 games to set records for a major-league reliever -- now coaches amateur pitchers at his facility in Zephyrhills, Fla., using such unconventional methods and criticizing other pitching experts so vehemently that he claims his students are blackballed by major-league organizations.


Few dispute that Marshall, who owns a doctorate in exercise physiology from Michigan State and has done tremendous other research on pitching arms and injuries, has some interesting ideas. I spoke with Marshall about those ideas, the contentiousness with which he shares them, and his vow to change pitching forever.

ALAN SCHWARZ: What is the greatest threat to a young pitcher today?
MIKE MARSHALL: Using the traditional pitching motion. It is destroying their arms, pitch by pitch until it will finally explode on them. It can be stopped and I know how to do it.
AS: What specifically do you consider so dangerous, that can be corrected?
MM: They teach pitchers to take the hand back with the palm facing downward. They teach them to take it laterally behind their body, which makes no sense at all. You can't raise your arm when you're doing that, it comes to a stop and now you can't throw the ball because you've got it over on the first-base side of your body, and the palm is facing towards first base. So now you've got to lift that arm up, and as you're lifting it up, it's coming up and coming up and then you get to where your forearm is almost vertical, and all of a sudden now your elbow is moving forward but your hand's moving backward and the hand is going back, the ball is going back, forearm is going back. The elbow is going forward and it gets to a point where it bounces, it slams -- that's what ruptures your ulnar collateral ligament, that reverse pitching forearm bounce.
It's an atrocious motion, it's been destroying pitching arms for 130 years and we're still using it? Why? Because we're still using the same pitching coaches. They don't have a clue what they're doing. They have done nothing to take care of the problem, absolutely nothing. If I destroyed one pitching arm, I'd stop. I'd be mortified for the rest of my life.
AS: Roughly how many pitchers have you worked with?
MM: It's in the neighborhood of 120-140 pitchers.
AS: Have none of those pitchers gotten injured?
MM: Never.
AS: Not one?
MM: The only time any of my guys have had any difficulties is when a traditional pitching coach gets a hold of them and forces them to change -- reverse rotate and unnecessarily stress their arm. Until those meatheads can get that through their mind and stop making these kids reverse rotate so far, they're going to continue to destroy pitching arms. Let me remind you of a guy pitching 106 games, 208 closing innings, never was stiff or tired and threw batting practice when he didn't pitch the night before.
AS: Well, citing yourself isn't exactly a large sample.
MM: That was just me, but I can tell you that everybody that I've trained, they can't all pitch major league baseball, but they can throw every single day without any stiffness or soreness.
AS: Who are some pitchers who you've worked with? Have any reached the major leagues?
MM: We have a little privacy issue here that I think I should adhere to, so I'm only going to mention those that I have already asked and clarified that with. (Former Devil Ray) Jeff Sparks came to me with an injured elbow -- 79 mph was his very top when I met him. He's played major league ball and he has reached a high of 96 mph and he throws every single day as hard as he possibly can. He still does. And is a high quality major league pitcher. What happened to him was he got on a team where they found out that I was coaching him and the meathead manager released him with a 3.5 ERA because I coached him.
AS: Sparks walked almost a batter per inning during his short time in Tampa Bay -- and I find it hard to believe that a team as desperate as the Devil Rays would release a so-called "high-quality major-league pitcher."
MM: He played the end of (1999) and the next year, the first 12 games he's in, he's got a 1.5 ERA. Then a reporter does an article in which Sparks says that I trained him. He didn't pitch but three times in the next three weeks, they warmed him up time after time, and finally put him in a game and just forced it until they got his earned run average up to 3.5, then they released him. It wasn't because of Jeff Sparks, it was because they couldn't tolerate the fact that I had trained him. Who releases someone with a 3.5 ERA?
AS: You are very wary of kids pitching at too young an age. Can you describe your approach?
MM: Sure. There is a difference between chronological age and biological age. Ten-year-olds not only have open growth plates, they don't even have an ossification center for the olecranon process -- which is the tip of the elbow -- for the lateral epicondyle. They don't even have bones where they need bones to have muscles to attach to them.
I recommend that they don't pitch competitively until they're biologically 13 years old. And then I say don't have them pitch more than one inning a game twice a week -- so that they don't overstress the medial epicondyle growth plate or the radial head growth plate.
AS: Other pitching experts have spent a great deal of time studying these issues as well. Isn't it possible that they know what they're talking about, too?
MM: No. They have no idea. No clue. Ask them to cite Newton's three laws to you and how it pertains to applying force to a baseball. They think he invented the Fig Newton. They couldn't name a single muscle of the arm -- for example, what muscle in the arm has 30 percent more fast-twitch muscle fibers than any other? You think they have a clue?
AS: Now wait a minute. I know of several who are intellectual enough to talk about muscles and ligaments and what-not.
MM: How does pronation protect the elbow? What muscles are involved in it and why does it protect the elbow? They haven't a clue, so how can they even talk about pitching? They don't understand anything. Get me in a room with every damn one of them and let's go after it. I would love it. Let's have a real debate, not this sniping crap.
AS: Given that your goal is to help young pitchers, wouldn't you have more effect on them if you were less aggressive in how you market your ideas?
MM: No. I'm not going to soft-sell it. I'm not going to say, "Oh, well, he's a nice guy and I'm sure he's trying to do really well." No, he's destroying pitching arms. Now if that's aggressive, I'm sorry. That's the truth.
AS: One major league pitching coach told me, "A lot of what Mike is doing might be right, but no one will ever do it. I would be fired instantaneously." What's your reaction to that?
MM: The general manager is a moron. If the general manager fires somebody who is trying to find a way to prevent destroying the arms of his pitchers, then the general manager needs to be fired.
Let me get into one major-league organization, and it'll be over for everybody else because my pitchers will never injure themselves. My pitchers will throw harder than they did before. They'll get closer to their genetic release velocity, whatever that is. They'll throw higher quality pitches and they'll do the same thing I did, be able to pitch every single day. We'll have a four-man rotation, we'll have relievers who can relieve every other day without any stiffness or soreness, we'll have an eight-man pitching staff, and we'll just kick your butt.

gonelong
02-21-2006, 12:03 PM
This is likely MM having an overinflated opinion of himself ... but if I'm the Reds I see no harm in having him in to talk about it. Bring in a pitching coach from outside the organization (maybe a retired one) and a doctor and let him explain his theory.

If you have any thougths that it might be legit ...

Let him try this with a few of the lesser prospects (if they are willing) and see what becomes of it.

Leave no stone (even a rockhead) unturned.

GL

westofyou
02-21-2006, 12:07 PM
Mike is currently in a war of words with Will Carroll

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4681

Mike also might be coming to the SABR convention in Seattle this summer, it has a hevily themed Pilots thing going on and Bouton is the Keynote... from what I hear Bouton asks for alot and Marshall is somewhat odd.

flyer85
02-21-2006, 12:11 PM
His 73 and 74 seasons as a reliever were amazing. He pitched more innings as reliever than Reds starters do now.

Does he know what he is talking about? I have no idea but he was a bit of a sideshow 30 years ago with all the innings day after day.

RedsManRick
02-21-2006, 12:12 PM
His arrogance and lack of respect for anybody else is incredibly annoying, but I'd love to learn more about the merits of his claims. You can't deny what he was able to do personally in terms of workload and effectiveness.

It's a shame, but given his disposition, it seems doubtful we'll ever see a full objective analysis of his methods.

Heath
02-21-2006, 12:58 PM
Joe Schultz, Pilots manager, called Marshall, "kooky".

Schultz also thought very little of Lou Pinella - he didn't turn out too bad.

gonelong
02-21-2006, 01:03 PM
He might be a nut, he might be full of it. I'd be finding out one way or another, on the down-low mind you.

GL

BCubb2003
02-21-2006, 01:08 PM
It sounds intriguing, and it ought to be put through scientific review. If there's one thing that could help scouting and development in baseball, it would be to make all the various concepts testable.

M2
02-21-2006, 02:00 PM
IMO, an independent league team would be wise to incorporate Marshall's ideas. Set up a local pony league using the Marshall plan and see what it gets you 10 years down the road.

ochre
02-21-2006, 02:03 PM
...using the Marshall plan...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/George_Catlett_Marshall%2C_general_of_the_US_army. jpg/260px-George_Catlett_Marshall%2C_general_of_the_US_army. jpg

M2
02-21-2006, 02:05 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/George_Catlett_Marshall%2C_general_of_the_US_army. jpg/260px-George_Catlett_Marshall%2C_general_of_the_US_army. jpg

You'll either get some pitchers out of the deal or lots of social democracies. It's win-win I tell you.

RedFanAlways1966
02-21-2006, 02:27 PM
AS: Sparks walked almost a batter per inning during his short time in Tampa Bay -- and I find it hard to believe that a team as desperate as the Devil Rays would release a so-called "high-quality major-league pitcher."

MM: He played the end of (1999) and the next year, the first 12 games he's in, he's got a 1.5 ERA. Then a reporter does an article in which Sparks says that I trained him. He didn't pitch but three times in the next three weeks, they warmed him up time after time, and finally put him in a game and just forced it until they got his earned run average up to 3.5, then they released him. It wasn't because of Jeff Sparks, it was because they couldn't tolerate the fact that I had trained him. Who releases someone with a 3.5 ERA?


I find it hard to believe that a ML GM would risk his own job (releasing a quality guy)... by releasing a guy for the simple fact that Marshall trained him. I do not believe it. If a guy can throw ML stuff, he will find a team. Regardless of his trainer. Sounds to me like Mike is a bit put off b/c more of his trainees have not made the big show and his ego makes it's own judgments.

pedro
02-21-2006, 02:36 PM
I think Mike is a little paranoid.

RFS62
02-21-2006, 02:40 PM
I think Mike is a little paranoid.


Finally a topic I know a little something about.

If he's right, someone else will be able to duplicate his research and prove it one way or another.

There's so much money involved, if he's on to something, it will be discovered.

Topcat
02-21-2006, 05:24 PM
IMO, an independent league team would be wise to incorporate Marshall's ideas. Set up a local pony league using the Marshall plan and see what it gets you 10 years down the road.


Thats a fantastic idea. Truly those who go against baseballs conventional ways always seem to get discredited. What if it works? It should not be about ego or frowned upon. Trying it sounds like a great idea. jeff Sparks is someone who could eventually be the person who benefits most. I say this because he could see a time where he may end up a instructor in the lower minors and who will be the torch carrier of this idea that Marshall mentored him in.

MWM
02-21-2006, 05:46 PM
IMO, an independent league team would be wise to incorporate Marshall's ideas. Set up a local pony league using the Marshall plan and see what it gets you 10 years down the road.

Hey RFS, sound familiar? :D

We were discussing this over the weekend and I made the same comment about an independent league team. I think that's exactly where he should go. If his methods are anywhere near as good as he claims, and I have my doubts, it's the holy grail for any team who implements them first.

RFS62
02-21-2006, 05:56 PM
Hey RFS, sound familiar? :D

We were discussing this over the weekend and I made the same comment about an independent league team. I think that's exactly where he should go. If his methods are anywhere near as good as he claims, and I have my doubts, it's the holy grail for any team who implements them first.


Yep, sure does.

NO organization is going to turn over their top pitching prospects on ANY professional level until these theories are proven.

The ONLY way I can ever see validation for Marshall would be if one of his pupils gets drafted and shows results.

LINEDRIVER
02-21-2006, 07:06 PM
SEPT 7, 1974 ... Reds' second baseman Joe Morgan, playing with a badly sprained ankle, falls down in the batter's box while swinging at a pitch from ace reliever Mike Marshall of the Dodgers. Morgan refuses a request from Reds' manager Sparky Anderson to come out of the game before getting up and belting a Marshall pitch over the right field fence. The eighth inning homer breaks the 5-5 tie. The Reds hold off the Dodgers in the ninth inning and take a 7-5 win.

RFS62
02-21-2006, 07:47 PM
Great to see you Linedriver

TRF
02-22-2006, 09:22 AM
Yep, sure does.

NO organization is going to turn over their top pitching prospects on ANY professional level until these theories are proven.

The ONLY way I can ever see validation for Marshall would be if one of his pupils gets drafted and shows results.

Then don't turn over the top prospects. Hand feed him the Josh Halls and the Kyle Edens. Give him 3-4 guys at a level, and as the majority of them progress, have him follow them like a personal trainer. If he turns 1 of them into a rubber armed reliever with increased speed on his pitches, AND can keep hin injury free, he can have all my pitching prospects.

RANDY IN INDY
02-22-2006, 11:31 AM
I have read a lot about different pitching philosophies, but I have never read up on the techniques that Marshall is a proponent of. Can anyone give me some information about what he is proposing, with regard to the mechanics that he is teaching?

M2
02-22-2006, 11:52 AM
I have read a lot about different pitching philosophies, but I have never read up on the techniques that Marshall is a proponent of. Can anyone give me some information about what he is proposing, with regard to the mechanics that he is teaching?

Here's an entire book on it:

http://www.drmikemarshall.com/FreeCoachingBaseballPitchersBook.html

RANDY IN INDY
02-22-2006, 12:57 PM
Thanks, M2.

RedsBaron
02-22-2006, 01:17 PM
Here's an entire book on it:

http://www.drmikemarshall.com/FreeCoachingBaseballPitchersBook.html
I read several chapters, but it started to give me a headache.:)

RANDY IN INDY
02-22-2006, 02:49 PM
Ain't that the truth. I would have a hard time explaining any of that to the average baseball player.

TRF
02-22-2006, 04:39 PM
Chapter 36


To insure that pitchers can grip and release their iron balls without their fingers slipping, they should tape their iron balls with athletic tape.

I'm actually reading this. 2 things come to mind:


Mike Marshall is a very smart man.
Mike Marshall knows he is a very smart man.


Some of this stuff is over my head, but I'm grasping a lot of it, especially the workout part. My son is 13, 14 next month. I'm thinking he'll be my guinea pig. He's 5'9, 145lbs. and just earned his yellow belt in tae kwon do. And he likes baseball.

Redsland
02-22-2006, 04:46 PM
Mike Marshall is a very smart man.
insure: to buy insurance for.

ensure: to be certain that.

TRF
02-22-2006, 05:07 PM
insure: to buy insurance for.

ensure: to be certain that.

typos happen. theories on muscle development, arm angles and when kids should pitch come from the mind of a smart man. Sure wish the reds would hire him to coach a handfull of minor leaguers. Start with low level prospects you don't expect much from then see if his ideas have merit.

westofyou
02-22-2006, 05:07 PM
Chapter 36



I'm actually reading this. 2 things come to mind:


Mike Marshall is a very smart man.
Mike Marshall knows he is a very smart man.


Some of this stuff is over my head, but I'm grasping a lot of it, especially the workout part. My son is 13, 14 next month. I'm thinking he'll be my guinea pig. He's 5'9, 145lbs. and just earned his yellow belt in tae kwon do. And he likes baseball.


He's a good test. Marshall makes the short list of dimunative relievers with a long career over the age of 30.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35371

TRF
02-22-2006, 05:10 PM
He's a good test. Marshall makes the short list of dimunative relievers with a long career over the age of 30.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35371

When my boy is done growing, he'll likely top out at 6'2". He's becoming a beast, and he hits hard. I saw him Chuck Norris a kid in a sparring match. He nearly missed because his foot nearly went over the kids head, and the kid never saw it coming.

My boy is going to be the next D-Train. :)

Spitball
02-22-2006, 07:17 PM
Here's an entire book on it:

http://www.drmikemarshall.com/FreeCoachingBaseballPitchersBook.html

Uhhh...anybody got the Cliff Notes?