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redsmetz
02-27-2006, 11:36 AM
I saw in the paper that today is the day the HOF will announce the electees from the Negro Leagues and pre-Negro League era. It's been interesting to read about many of these players being considered and it goes some way in honoring long overlooked ballplayers who were just as capable as their white counterparts.

The announcement will come at 2 p.m. today (2/27/06).

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/negro_leaguers.htm

westofyou
02-27-2006, 11:45 AM
Ughhh I DON'T like this.

The data was not released before the voting and frankly it should have been.

This is going to be a Frankie Frisch type of vote, IE some guys sneak in the back door and dilute the HOF pool.

redsmetz
02-27-2006, 12:30 PM
Curiously, Frankie Frisch's listing on Baseball Reference shows players most like him. Of those, everyone of them is in the HOF except for Alomar (who isn't eligible yet) and Lave Cross & Jimmy Ryan, both of whom played most of their careers before the modern era.

George Davis (880) *
Roberto Alomar (849)
Zack Wheat (844) *
Rod Carew (838) *
Jim O'Rourke (828) *
Lave Cross (824)
Sam Rice (824) *
Charlie Gehringer (821) *
Jimmy Ryan (814)
Nap Lajoie (810) *

That said, the HOF article talks about two days of discussion, but I'm not sure the voters are coming in blind. I believe the reports were made available to them. I think this is a small step in redressing a grave injustice. Ted Williams, to his great credit, broached this subject and it's taken over 40 years to move forward in a more meaningful way.

westofyou
02-27-2006, 12:31 PM
Curiously, Frankie Frisch's listing on Baseball Reference shows players most like him. Of those, everyone of them is in the HOF except for Alomar (who isn't eligible yet) and Lave Cross & Jimmy Ryan, both of whom played most of their careers before the modern era.

George Davis (880) *
Roberto Alomar (849)
Zack Wheat (844) *
Rod Carew (838) *
Jim O'Rourke (828) *
Lave Cross (824)
Sam Rice (824) *
Charlie Gehringer (821) *
Jimmy Ryan (814)
Nap Lajoie (810) *

That said, the HOF article talks about two days of discussion, but I'm not sure the voters are coming in blind. I believe the reports were made available to them. I think this is a small step in redressing a grave injustice. Ted Williams, to his great credit, broached this subject and it's taken over 40 years to move forward in a more meaningful way.

Frisch was a HOF player, he also was the head of the HOF Vets committe for years and brought in many of his ex players who didn't belong in the HOF at all.

westofyou
02-27-2006, 12:36 PM
That said, the HOF article talks about two days of discussion, but I'm not sure the voters are coming in blind. I believe the reports were made available to them. I think this is a small step in redressing a grave injustice. Ted Williams, to his great credit, broached this subject and it's taken over 40 years to move forward in a more meaningful way.

At my SABR meeting last fall Rob Neyer was up in arms about this, he and several of the other guys in the group are major players in the SABR organization and severa have written books as well. They were all peeved, but Neyer was the worst.

The fact is the HOF comissioned a group of guys to research the players that were under consideration. If you know anything about blackball stats you know they are pretty much spotty.

They did not offer or accept SABR's request to double check the data. The vote is going to be made by a group holding onto the data that they used to determine their vote, no debate nothing.

It really isn't right.

Cyclone792
02-27-2006, 12:46 PM
Yep, the data should really have been released before the vote to avoid a Frankie Frisch type situation. I definitely agree that what MLB is doing is great in trying to get a couple more deserving Negro Leaguers in, but the process could have been a bit better with making the data public.

That said, without the data there are three guys on the ballot that I'm positive are definitive Hall of Famers and am comfortable with gaining election without seeing the data. Those players are Cristobal Torriente, Mule Suttles and Biz Mackay.

Outside of those three, I'm in the dark as much as anyone else.

Cyclone792
02-27-2006, 03:03 PM
Total of 17 elected out of 39 on the ballot. No word yet on names, but supposedly Buck O'Neil and Minnie Minoso are among them.

Cyclone792
02-27-2006, 03:06 PM
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2006/060227.htm


COOPERSTOWN, NY: A committee of 12 Negro and pre-Negro leagues baseball historians elected 17 candidates to the National Baseball Hall of Fame today in Tampa, Fla., featuring 12 players and five executives. The 17 electees will be honored in Cooperstown, New York, during Induction Ceremonies on July 30, joining Bruce Sutter, the lone electee from the Baseball Writers' Association of America election announcement in January.

The electees include seven Negro leagues players: Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, and Jud Wilson; five pre-Negro leagues players: Frank Grant, Pete Hill, José Méndez, Louis Santop, and Ben Taylor; four Negro leagues executives Effa Manley, Alex Pompez, Cum Posey, and J.L. Wilkinson; and one pre-Negro leagues executive Sol White. Manley, an owner in the Negro leagues, becomes the first woman elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Each of the 17 received the necessary 75% of the 12-member voting committee to earn election to the Hall of Fame. The committee reviewed the careers of 39 Negro and pre-Negro leagues candidates over a two-day meeting in Tampa. The list of 39 was pared from a roster of 94 candidates, narrowed by a five-member screening committee in November.

Cyclone792
02-27-2006, 03:13 PM
Well, neither O'Neil nor Minoso got in, but Effa Manley, an owner, becomes the first woman elected to Cooperstown. The three players whom I considered locks, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles and Cristobal Torriente, all gained election.

westofyou
02-27-2006, 03:33 PM
Cristobal Torriente is a lock.


Torriente, a slugging Negro League superstar, was one of the three greatest Cuban players (with Jose Mendez and Martin Dihigo) to have been kept out of the American major leagues because of race. He had a light complexion and, according to teammate Jelly Gardner, the New York Giants' John McGraw would have signed him to a major league contract had it not been for Torriente's kinky hair. C.I. Taylor, longtime manager and Negro League executive, said, "If I should see Torriente walking up the other side of the street, I would say, `there walks a ballclub.'"

Torriente was a powerful, 5'9" lefthanded pull-hitter, and a notorious bad-ball hitter. He began his career in the United States in 1914 with the touring Cuban Stars. An outstanding outfielder with great range and a strong arm, when he joined the Chicago American Giants in 1919, Hall of Famer Oscar Charleston moved from centerfield to left field. Torriente led the American Giants to consecutive Negro National League championships in 1920-22. He batted .396 in 1920, and until 1925 never dipped below .332. When he dropped to .241 in 1925, he was traded to the Kansas City Monarchs, with whom he bounced back to hit .339 in 1926. From 1919 through 1928, he compiled a 16-5 record as a pitcher. He was absent from league play in 1929-31, but returned for a single game in 1932.

In the 12 documented years that Torriente played in the Cuban League, he hit .352. He led the league in doubles twice, in hits and in stolen bases three times, in triples and in HR four times. Though he captured only one batting title (1919), he topped his league-leading mark of .360 in three other seasons, with a high of .402 in 1916. Against major leaguers in exhibition play, he hit .281 (27-for-96) with three HR. He reportedly died of tuberculosis in Cuba in 1948. (JJM)

Danny Serafini
02-27-2006, 05:13 PM
Saw this in a news story about Effa Manley. Sort of puts the era in perspective:

"Manley used baseball to advance civil rights causes with events such as an Anti-Lynching Day at the ballpark."

Sure is a long way away from Gapper Bobblehead Night.

westofyou
02-27-2006, 05:40 PM
Saw this in a news story about Effa Manley. Sort of puts the era in perspective:

"Manley used baseball to advance civil rights causes with events such as an Anti-Lynching Day at the ballpark."

Sure is a long way away from Gapper Bobblehead Night.

Moments like the Tulsa Riots come to mind, a little known story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Race_Riot

I had never heard of it, but it happened 8 days after Negro League player John Beckwith was the first player to clear the fence at Redland Field.

Chip R
02-27-2006, 07:06 PM
Moments like the Tulsa Riots come to mind, a little known story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Race_Riot

I had never heard of it, but it happened 8 days after Negro League player John Beckwith was the first player to clear the fence at Redland Field.

I believe I saw a show on that on PBS several years ago. It was segregated but they had a really nice community going on there.

savafan
03-01-2006, 12:07 AM
How do O'Neil and Minoso not get in? :confused:

Cyclone792
03-01-2006, 12:27 AM
How do O'Neil and Minoso not get in? :confused:

Was wondering the same thing.

Seems to me that Minoso got shafted by the writers and now by the Vets' Committee because his MLB career wasn't long enough ... because part of it was in the Negro Leagues. Now it seems that he got shut out by the Negro League vote because his career in the Negro Leagues wasn't long enough ... because part of it was in the Majors.

Put the two Minoso careers together - MLB and Negro Leagues - and you've got a Hall of Famer.

I'm not sure if Buck O'Neil the player deserves to go in, but he did also manage in the Negro Leagues. That said, I'd be VERY supportive of him still getting in even if some of it was under the label of being a great ambassador to the game and especially to the Negro Leagues. If someone asked me to pick one out of Buck O'Neil and Effa Manley, give me Buck O'Neil every time.

M2
03-01-2006, 12:28 AM
How do O'Neil and Minoso not get in? :confused:

Minoso only played a few years in the Negro Leagues, dominant years mind you. History's just screwed the guy. Had he played a full career in one league, he'd have been an obvious selection.

And I just don't get the non-selection of O'Neil. If there's any two guys who deserves selection while they're still able to enjoy it, it's these two.

Cyclone792
03-01-2006, 12:36 AM
Minoso only played a few years in the Negro Leagues, dominant years mind you. History's just screwed the guy. Had he played a full career in one league, he'd have been an obvious selection.

And I just don't get the non-selection of O'Neil. If there's any two guys who deserves selection while they're still able to enjoy it, it's these two.

Yep, and the new Vets' Committee hasn't come close to electing any players since they changed the format. The old Vets' Committee had a ton of flaws in that they elected buddies of the voters, but if the new committee can't even get Ron Santo close then I'm not sure they'll ever elect anyone.

If there's a Vets' Committee drought that lasts a significantly long time, I wouldn't be surprised to either see a mandate come down for them to elect someone or for them to change the format again altogether. The Vets' Committee is a necessary stopgap, but if the stopgap isn't working then it's not doing its job.

RedsBaron
03-01-2006, 05:23 PM
Yep, and the new Vets' Committee hasn't come close to electing any players since they changed the format. The old Vets' Committee had a ton of flaws in that they elected buddies of the voters, but if the new committee can't even get Ron Santo close then I'm not sure they'll ever elect anyone.

If there's a Vets' Committee drought that lasts a significantly long time, I wouldn't be surprised to either see a mandate come down for them to elect someone or for them to change the format again altogether. The Vets' Committee is a necessary stopgap, but if the stopgap isn't working then it's not doing its job.
I will predict that if the Veterans Committee continues to elect nobody year after year, the format will be changed. Unfortunately, the threat of a change may cause the committee to then select someone who does not deserve induction.

Cyclone792
03-01-2006, 06:12 PM
I will predict that if the Veterans Committee continues to elect nobody year after year, the format will be changed. Unfortunately, the threat of a change may cause the committee to then select someone who does not deserve induction.

I agree, and if I had to pick one player who gets in due to that threat that doesn't deserve election, that player is Gil Hodges.

RedsBaron
03-01-2006, 06:22 PM
I agree, and if I had to pick one player who gets in due to that threat that doesn't deserve election, that player is Gil Hodges.
I started to name Hodges as the guy I expected the veterans commttee to name. Oh, there are worse players than Hodges in the HOF, but there are a lot of players not in the Hall of Fame who are more deserving of induction than Hodges.

Chip R
03-01-2006, 07:51 PM
Doesn't the Veterans Committee meet every other year now?

Cyclone792
03-01-2006, 07:55 PM
Doesn't the Veterans Committee meet every other year now?

For players, yep.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers%5Fand%5Fhonorees/veterans/veterans%5Fchanges.htm


Election of players every two years, beginning in 2003; election of umpires, managers and executives every four years, beginning in 2003.