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Crash Davis
02-28-2006, 09:33 PM
Interesting Tony Batista article and blog report on Tony Batista at aarongleeman.com:

http://www.aarongleeman.com/


"This is a guy you want to have on your team," Orioles All-Star third baseman Melvin Mora said in a telephone interview. "This is a guy who is always talking about Jesus. All of the people are going to love him in Minnesota."


If anyone thought Batista would shrivel from his Japanese experience, they were mistaken. Like anything in his deeply spiritual life, he speaks of it now as part of God's divine plan.

With Fukuoka, he said, he handed out Bibles inside the clubhouse to his Japanese teammates.

"And they read the Bible," he said, without sounding surprised. "So I think God probably said, 'You're done over there. So go back here to Minnesota and talk about Jesus Christ to those guys.'"

Gleeman:

I also question why Batista's propensity to push his religious beliefs upon teammates is being spun as such a positive thing. Let's say, just for an example, that Rondell White is an Atheist. He is joining the team and meeting his new teammates for the first time, just like Batista. If White were constantly bringing up Atheism and pushing those beliefs on his new teammates, would it be treated the same way by Christensen?

I doubt it, and you can sub Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism or any number of other religions in and ask the same question. Whatever the case, I think the answer will be the same and it'll be a lot different than the way Batista's belief in Christianity is being covered. (Interestingly, on the same day that the Batista article ran, the front page of the Star Tribune featured an article under the headline of "Bringing God to the job." It also focused on Christianity.)

traderumor
02-28-2006, 10:35 PM
Uh-oh, this is religious in nature, not baseball. :nono:

Crash Davis
02-28-2006, 10:48 PM
Uh, it's from a baseball site and is about a baseball player.

Put your badge away, Pyle...and please stop with the condescending smilies. There's a more sensible way to approach this.

It's about baseball AND religion. They're not mutually exclusive. I have a book called "The Faith of 50 Million: Baseball, Religion, and American Culture." I found the book in the Baseball section of the bookstore, not the Non-Baseball section.

If you continue to overpolice the site, you run the risk of losing a lot of interesting discussion about ALL aspects of baseball.

I don't post a lot on here anymore for a variety of reasons, the most relevant being limited time. However, I think I have a history of interesting and informed discussion. I'll be happy to take that viewpoint elsewhere if this site wants to buttonhole itself into an instrument that has no room for discussion beyond "are strikeouts bad"?

Being overly politically correct isn't a virtue. That movement, much like the sabermetrics movement, was begun as a way to combat conformity and conventional wisdom. When the movement swallows itself and begins to forbid anything but conformity, it has outlived its usefulness. I don't think it behooves this small corner of the baseball community to allow redszone to follow the lead of the P.C. movement.

TOBTTReds
02-28-2006, 10:59 PM
Crash, thanks for the post. I enjoyed reading the info. This brings up some very interesting points about clubhouse culture too. We talk about ego's and attitudes all the time (see: any D'Angelo Jimenez post last season). One man's bible is another man's leather chair (Dunn). Take Dunn's chair away, slugger no happy.

I don't like the idea of involving politics or religion in the clubhouse. What if Dunn started passing out pamphlets about the Republican party to everyone in the clubhouse? I guarentee some people might throw it away and someone might take it personally.

This could create a hostile environment for any Jewish players, or anyone of other backgrounds.

paintmered
02-28-2006, 11:19 PM
This is a sensative area but I think as long as the conversation remains on topic, we should be okay and this thread will stay open.

Crash and Aves, you have both handled it well. Thanks guys.

Falls City Beer
02-28-2006, 11:45 PM
It's not the Jesus stuff that gets my goat, it's the overweight part. How dare Batista!! Cut him!! Make him an example, I say!! Never mind the fact that he sucks as a performer--that overweight stuff, I can't abide!!

M2
03-01-2006, 09:49 AM
Wearing his religion on his sleeve is probably a really effective (though inadvertent) defense mechanism for Batista. Nobody wants to tell the smiling evangelical guy that he sucks.

traderumor
03-01-2006, 10:58 AM
Uh, it's from a baseball site and is about a baseball player.

Put your badge away, Pyle...and please stop with the condescending smilies. There's a more sensible way to approach this.

It's about baseball AND religion. They're not mutually exclusive. I have a book called "The Faith of 50 Million: Baseball, Religion, and American Culture." I found the book in the Baseball section of the bookstore, not the Non-Baseball section.

If you continue to overpolice the site, you run the risk of losing a lot of interesting discussion about ALL aspects of baseball.

I don't post a lot on here anymore for a variety of reasons, the most relevant being limited time. However, I think I have a history of interesting and informed discussion. I'll be happy to take that viewpoint elsewhere if this site wants to buttonhole itself into an instrument that has no room for discussion beyond "are strikeouts bad"?

Being overly politically correct isn't a virtue. That movement, much like the sabermetrics movement, was begun as a way to combat conformity and conventional wisdom. When the movement swallows itself and begins to forbid anything but conformity, it has outlived its usefulness. I don't think it behooves this small corner of the baseball community to allow redszone to follow the lead of the P.C. movement.
I happen to disagree that Crash handled this well based on this post, especially since I was being sarcastic. I guess it depends on who starts a thread about religion, so whatever.

Ohioballplayer
03-01-2006, 12:27 PM
Most players are very religious, Gary Gaetti prime example, no one is pushing religion, no one complains when a football player or a baseball player points to God, heaver, or the sky at their long lost relative. Baseball and religion go hand in hand, what did the great Davey Concepcion do before he stepped in the box?

Give God his due. in whatever belief you follow.

westofyou
03-01-2006, 12:36 PM
Gary Gaetti prime example, no one is pushing religion,

Gary is an interesting example, he was a hell raiser with Hrbeck and then changed his ways, according to Hrbeck it changed everything about the team, their relationship etc... it was covered in this article 12 years ago.


Religion in the Clubhouse: Divine Or Divisive? by Wendel, Tim
Article in USA Today Baseball Weekly
June 8, 1994 (Vol. 4, Issue 11) -- p. 36, 4 page(s)
» Notes: Contributing: Scott Kauffman, Pete Williams, Lisa Winston

Named people: Gary Gaetti; Brian Harper; Paul Molitor; Joe Carter; Howard Johnson; Gary Lavelle; Ron Andrews; Bill Madlock; Darrell Evans; Kent Hrbek
Topics: Religion; Christianity; Chemistry; Player Dissension; Minnesota Twins; San Francisco Giants; Toronto Blue Jays

Northern Red
03-01-2006, 01:45 PM
Interesting, WOY. Usually, Christians (religious) athelets are labled as being apathetic or not playing as hard as the next guy. That's not an opinion I subscribe to as a general rule, but I also won't discredit it.

I remember an interview with Brett Butler (a Christian) one time, and the interviewer asked him what kind of player he thought Jesus Christ would be. Without hesitating he said he thought Jesus Christ would be the type of player who would go in hard at second base to break up a double play, and then pick up the opposing player and dust him off. :D

He went on to make the point that Christians should give their best and play harder than the next guy, as everything they do "should be done for the Lord."

I could see it going either way, depending on the personalities of those involved.

In the case of Gary and Kent, it would be interesting to know their ages, etc. No doubt, if Gary was a hellraiser before he converted drastically changed after, it's possible the change was just perceived by Mr. Hrbeck as the problem when there could have been other factors contributing to that as well - like the normal decline of an athlete.

I'm not saying that's the case, either - just would be interesting to look at.

Is there a link to that article, WOY?

westofyou
03-01-2006, 01:48 PM
Is there a link to that article, WOY?

Nope, I tried to dig it up but no luck, the author has a web site and perhaps he could lead us to it?

Butler and Gladden were both teammates on the Giants IIRC and from my recollection as a resident of the area that caused some strife on the team.

pedro
03-01-2006, 03:03 PM
I don't think bringing religion into the work place is appropriate, whether you are a baseball player or a garbage man. If guys want to hold bible study meetings on their own time fine, but approaching others and asking to "give testimony" is, IMO, offensive, as it would be if a jewish or buddist player approached others and tried to convert them to their religion.

I had a former employee who would approach people at work and ask to give his "testimony". Even though he was a very nice man I know it made some folks very uncomfortable. Later he left to become a minister.

Crash Davis
03-01-2006, 03:04 PM
I happen to disagree that Crash handled this well based on this post, especially since I was being sarcastic. I guess it depends on who starts a thread about religion, so whatever.

Sarcasm practice this afternoon on the back field.

dsmith421
03-01-2006, 03:54 PM
Have any players besides Hrbek in the above article ever come out and complained that religion is too pervasive?

I remember hearing about some player with the Nationals last season telling one of his teammates that his Jewish girlfriend was condemned to hell, which seems like something you don't say in polite conversation at the workplace, even if it is your particular sect's belief.

As for me, if I was constantly being hit over the head with religion in my workplace I think it would drive me nuts. Thank God I'm in government work.

traderumor
03-01-2006, 04:14 PM
Sarcasm practice this afternoon on the back field.
Meanwhile, the thread continues to discuss religion in a bizarre twist of the emphatic rules against such discussions because it happens to involve baseball players? I've seen folks' threads banished to the other board for less, that's all I'm saying.

Crash, you can lay off the jerky comments anytime. I've got no personal bone to pick with you, I'd suggest you follow in kind.

Chip R
03-01-2006, 04:18 PM
Meanwhile, the thread continues to discuss religion in a bizarre twist of the emphatic rules against such discussions because it happens to involve baseball players? I've seen folks' threads banished to the other board for less, that's all I'm saying.

Crash, you can lay off the jerky comments anytime. I've got no personal bone to pick with you, I'd suggest you follow in kind.

tr, if you have a problem with this thread, report it. Otherwise stop complaining.

traderumor
03-01-2006, 04:23 PM
tr, if you have a problem with this thread, report it. Otherwise stop complaining.it's obvious it wouldn't make a difference at this point. Subject now closed on my end. I apologize for putting my nose where it doesn't belong.

RedsBaron
03-01-2006, 04:26 PM
Nope, I tried to dig it up but no luck, the author has a web site and perhaps he could lead us to it?

Butler and Gladden were both teammates on the Giants IIRC and from my recollection as a resident of the area that caused some strife on the team.
I cannot give you a link, but I can recall reading a letter or a column in a San Francisco newspaper back in the 1980s wherein the writer was declaring how it was a good thing that the Giants had traded away or released their Christian players. My reaction to that piece was less than positive.

westofyou
03-01-2006, 04:29 PM
I cannot give you a link, but I can recall reading a letter or a column in a San Francisco newspaper back in the 1980s wherein the writer was declaring how it was a good thing that the Giants had traded away or released their Christian players. My reaction to that piece was less than positive.
Yep, it was an issue and the press ran with it, just like the press ran with Richie Allen's complaints while a Phillie. The press can really does drive a wedge between the club at times by taking an issue between a few and forcing the team to choose sides.

Roy Tucker
03-01-2006, 04:40 PM
For some odd reason, the title of this thread reminded me of the Jimmy Buffett song "My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink and I Don't Love Jesus".

:dunno:

smith288
03-01-2006, 04:56 PM
I don't think bringing religion into the work place is appropriate, whether you are a baseball player or a garbage man. If guys want to hold bible study meetings on their own time fine, but approaching others and asking to "give testimony" is, IMO, offensive, as it would be if a jewish or buddist player approached others and tried to convert them to their religion.

I had a former employee who would approach people at work and ask to give his "testimony". Even though he was a very nice man I know it made some folks very uncomfortable. Later he left to become a minister.
There is a difference between "peddling" religion and being able to freely practice it in the work place (even if it does include passing out Bibles).

They guy you speak of probably was a bit zealous... But I know many Christians who will tone down if they are requested to do so. I know there are some who would turn it into some martyrdom thing as well but im pretty sure a vast majority would respectfully cease the requests for testimony from everyone.

red-in-la
03-02-2006, 09:54 AM
It is this type of misplaced (and misguided (IMHO) evangelism that gives Christians a bad rap.....and it offends the dickens out of me when sports figures do it. The points have been very well made by you guys.....leave this type of media-hype Christianity at least at home.....IMHO it should be left nowhere as it is not what the faith is about.

My wife has converted more people than all the sports dtars put together but she has NEVER handed anybody a Bible. Do it by example.....if you can do that, you don't need to beat people over the head with Bibles.

Besides, how are you being a good Christian if you cannot even control your weigh? Glutony is a one of the 7 deadly sins IIRC correctly.

paulrichjr
03-02-2006, 10:40 AM
Have any players besides Hrbek in the above article ever come out and complained that religion is too pervasive?

I remember hearing about some player with the Nationals last season telling one of his teammates that his Jewish girlfriend was condemned to hell, which seems like something you don't say in polite conversation at the workplace, even if it is your particular sect's belief.

As for me, if I was constantly being hit over the head with religion in my workplace I think it would drive me nuts. Thank God I'm in government work.


Wasn't this about the Nationals "official" minister instead of a player? I think Ryan Church asked the question during a devotion about a Jewish person going to heaven. The minister never commented but left the impression that he didn't believe that a Jew could go to heaven without Christ. Ryan then told it to a paper and the guy was suspended.

max venable
03-02-2006, 11:11 AM
Wow. Very interesting thread.

I think, for a guy like Batista, he's just genuinely excited about his faith. If something brings you life and excitement and changes your life in an unbelievably positive way, you can't help but talk about it.

I get the fact that Christianity has gotten a bad rap because of misguided Christians taking the wrong approach and beating people over the head with their beliefs. It turns me off, too (and I'm a Christian).

Please, if you're not a Christ-follower and you're one of those who get hammered at work by Christians "peddling their beliefs" or whatever you want to call it, please don't assume that all Christians are like that. We're not. I love to talk about Christ and how he's changed my life but I'll never do it uninvited--I realize it's a turn-off.

I'd rather just be a friend to you. And if, when you're ready, you ever want to know about my faith, I'd be thrilled to tell you about it.

Part of what goes on with a lot of Christians is that they view non-Christians as "projects" rather than real people who would much rather be a friend than a project. And that's too bad.

Does any of that make sense?

registerthis
03-02-2006, 11:38 AM
Part of what goes on with a lot of Christians is that they view non-Christians as "projects" rather than real people who would much rather be a friend than a project. And that's too bad.

Does any of that make sense?

Absolutely. This type of thinking was beat into my head for 21 years.

traderumor
03-02-2006, 11:48 AM
Most of the evangelism I've seen is analogous to one night stands--love 'em, woo 'em, put a notch on your belt when you score, then never call again.

dsmith421
03-02-2006, 12:12 PM
Wasn't this about the Nationals "official" minister instead of a player? I think Ryan Church asked the question during a devotion about a Jewish person going to heaven. The minister never commented but left the impression that he didn't believe that a Jew could go to heaven without Christ. Ryan then told it to a paper and the guy was suspended.

I think you are right.

KronoRed
03-02-2006, 12:59 PM
Most of the evangelism I've seen is analogous to one night stands--love 'em, woo 'em, put a notch on your belt when you score, then never call again.
That's pretty sad, and a good way to blow someone off of the Church forever :bang:

max venable
03-02-2006, 01:03 PM
That's pretty sad, and a good way to blow someone off of the Church forever :bang:
No kidding. And that's exactly what's happened for a lot of people.

traderumor
03-02-2006, 01:16 PM
That's pretty sad, and a good way to blow someone off of the Church forever :bang:When the emphasis is on getting a "decision," that's what you get.

max venable
03-02-2006, 02:50 PM
When the emphasis is on getting a "decision," that's what you get.
Just curious traderumor, what's your take? What should the emphasis be on? I'm not trying to be smart. I just am curious about what you (and others) think.

traderumor
03-02-2006, 03:17 PM
Just curious traderumor, what's your take? What should the emphasis be on? I'm not trying to be smart. I just am curious about what you (and others) think.
I'm gonna defer because I cannot possibly see an answer not crossing the religion line (no smart alecness intended based on my prior posts in this thread, just making a judgment call on my end), but I'd be happy to answer that question on the Redszone Peanut Gallery. If you haven't joined, that would be a great first thread.

http://lastperson.suncircle.org/index.php

max venable
03-02-2006, 04:45 PM
I'm gonna defer because I cannot possibly see an answer not crossing the religion line (no smart alecness intended based on my prior posts in this thread, just making a judgment call on my end), but I'd be happy to answer that question on the Redszone Peanut Gallery. If you haven't joined, that would be a great first thread.

http://lastperson.suncircle.org/index.php
Fair enough. :)

paintmered
03-03-2006, 12:48 AM
I am closing this thread, but it's not due to any misbehavior or bad posts (I want to stress this). You all have handled yourselves well. Instead, this thread has strayed a bit off the original topic of religion and baseball to religion and evangelization. If you would like to continue discussing this topic, please follow the link traderumor posted.

If you would like to continue discussing religion and its relationship with baseball, please start a new thread in Reds Live or ORG.

Thanks. :)

Edit: A thread has now been created on the other site. http://lastperson.suncircle.org/index.php/topic,449.0.html