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Revering4Blue
03-07-2006, 06:43 AM
Narron wants his Reds scrappy

SARASOTA, Fla. — On the day the full squad dressed for the first time for spring training, Cincinnati Reds manager Jerry Narron stood in the middle of the clubhouse with several messages.

One of them he considered ultra-important.

“I told them, ‘I’m tired of hearing people say they love to see Ryan Freel play. I want them to say they love to see the Cincinnati Reds play,’ and that’s exactly what I told them,” Narron said.

That’s part of Narron’s everyday credo about playing the game hard and playing the game right — the way it is played by Freel and Chris Denorfia, two guys who get the most out of what isn’t star stuff.

To emphasize his point, Narron recalled talking to several scouts who saw outfielder Denorfia play over the winter in the Arizona Fall League.

What the scouts said pleased Narron, as far as appreciating Denorfia, but it baffles him that it has to be said.

“Scouts who saw Denorfia play in the Arizona Fall League told me how impressed they were by how hard he played and how he played the game right,” Narron said. “To me, that’s an indictment on our industry, and I don’t just mean the Cincinnati Reds.

“It is nice to hear somebody say a player from the Reds plays the game right, but it is also too bad. If everybody played the game the way Denorfia does, he wouldn’t stand out.”

Denorfia, the organization’s minor-league player of the year, is trying to capture an extra outfield spot and has tough competition from veterans like Tuffy Rhodes and Quinton McCracken, plus the fact Freel and Tony Womack play the outfield, too.

But Denorfia already is in his play-the-game-hard and play-the-game-right mode. On Sunday in Tampa, he made a diving, belly-flopping catch in center field to end the game with the Reds leading, 4-1. The New York Yankees had two runners on base.

And Narron noted two at-bats in which Denorfia didn’t get a hit — once when he hit the ball to the right side to move a runner from second to third and once when he hit a deep fly to the deepest part of the park for a sacrifice fly.

As Narron notes, those things shouldn’t have to be pointed out for praise, they should be ingrained. That’s what he wants the 2006 Cincinnati Reds to be.

“It is the only way to win baseball games,” he said.

Freel puts a huge stamp of approval on it.

“That’s what Cincinnati baseball is all about and what the fans are all about,” said Freel. “That’s what tradition is about, what the Big Red Machine was about. The style I play brings back memories and we need 25 guys to play with hustle and desire.

“Sure, we’re a little short in some (talent) areas, but everybody can hustle and play the game right and that could mean as many as 10 to 15 more wins.”

http://www.journal-news.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2006/03/07/hjn030706mccoy.html

membengal
03-07-2006, 07:25 AM
Narron then said, "and that's why Ryan Freel isn't our starting second basemen."

And the assembled reporters didn't react quick enough to ask why that is.

wheels
03-07-2006, 10:05 AM
Can Freel or Denorfia pitch?

Guess trying really hard trumps pitching.

NJReds
03-07-2006, 10:15 AM
Denorfia, the organization’s minor-league player of the year, is trying to capture an extra outfield spot and has tough competition from veterans like Tuffy Rhodes and Quinton McCracken, plus the fact Freel and Tony Womack play the outfield, too.

Tony Womack doesn't "play" outfield. He runs around in circles and occasionally the ball lands in his glove. He was horrible in the OF for the Yankees last year. Torre tried him in the OF because he was horrible at 2B.

flyer85
03-07-2006, 10:18 AM
The Reds only hope is that Krivsky finds another home for Woemack(Florida?) and Aurilia(Philadelphia?) before opening day.

Johnny Footstool
03-07-2006, 10:32 AM
Classic.

Narron is basically saying "the Reds' problems can be traced to a lack of hustle and desire."

What's that quote about small minds focusing on irrelevant details and ignoring the larger problem?

BTW - I also think it's hilarious that the words "tough competition", "Tuffy Rhodes", and "Quentin McCracken" all appear in the same sentence and aren't accompanied by the word "not."

Chip R
03-07-2006, 10:45 AM
I swear we need a drinking game for Narron.

1 drink if he says someone "knows how to play the game"
1 drink if he refers to himself as a "baseball guy"
1 drink if he refers to "playing the game the right way."
Chug if he mentions OPS.

Anyone else want to add to this? ;)

BRM
03-07-2006, 10:50 AM
That’s part of Narron’s everyday credo about playing the game hard and playing the game right — the way it is played by Freel and Chris Denorfia, two guys who get the most out of what isn’t star stuff.

One of those guys is losing a starting job to Tony Woemack and the other most likely has his ticket punched for AAA. Nice.

Johnny Footstool
03-07-2006, 10:51 AM
Chug if he mentions OPS.

You might as well shoot up with heroin if he mentions OPS.

flyer85
03-07-2006, 10:58 AM
maybe it's a misquote and Narron actually said "crappy".

pedro
03-07-2006, 11:02 AM
Here are Jerry Narron's carreer stats. Looks to me that he might like guys "who play the game right" because that was the only way that anyone could possibly say anything possitive about him as a player because he certainly couldn't "play".



Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1979 23 NYY AL 61 123 17 21 3 1 4 18 0 0 9 26 .171 .226 .309 38 3 1 0 0 2
1980 24 SEA AL 48 107 7 21 3 0 4 18 0 0 13 18 .196 .279 .336 36 1 2 2 0 2
1981 25 SEA AL 76 203 13 45 5 0 3 17 0 0 16 35 .222 .285 .291 59 3 0 3 2 3
1983 27 CAL AL 10 22 1 3 0 0 1 4 0 0 1 3 .136 .174 .273 6 0 0 0 0 0
1984 28 CAL AL 69 150 9 37 5 0 3 17 0 0 8 12 .247 .286 .340 51 1 2 1 1 7
1985 29 CAL AL 67 132 12 29 4 0 5 14 0 0 11 17 .220 .280 .364 48 0 0 2 0 2
1986 30 CAL AL 57 95 5 21 3 1 1 8 0 0 9 14 .221 .292 .305 29 1 1 0 1 5
1987 31 SEA AL 4 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 .000 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 0 0
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
8 Seasons 392 840 64 177 23 2 21 96 0 0 67 127 .211 .270 .318 267 9 6 8 4 21

Tommyjohn25
03-07-2006, 11:08 AM
Ha Ha! I just logged on to DDN.com and saw this article and said to myself "I bet this is on the top of the page when I get to Redszone" and whaddayaknow?! There it was! :laugh:

westofyou
03-07-2006, 11:10 AM
Narron wants his Reds scrappy

In 1937 the Reds were coming off a season where they were 6 games under .500. The manager was ex "scrappy" player Charlie Dressen, he promised that the 1937 Reds would be Tough, Rough and Ready.

So he put together a club of "scrappy" guys and the press loved it calling them the Roughhouse Reds.

However they stunk and by mid year the new GM fired Dressen and hired the guy HE wanted, Bill McKetchie... the Reds ended up 40 games out by the end of the year.

Scrappy and rough is all nice and fine, better play some baseball though.

MWM
03-07-2006, 11:10 AM
Who decides what the "right" way to play the game is? I've always wondered this.

westofyou
03-07-2006, 11:15 AM
Who decides what the "right" way to play the game is? I've always wondered this.Baseball Men with "Stats Freaks" stuck in the treads of their shoes.

DeadRedinCT
03-07-2006, 11:19 AM
I swear we need a drinking game for Narron.

1 drink if he says someone "knows how to play the game"
1 drink if he refers to himself as a "baseball guy"
1 drink if he refers to "playing the game the right way."
Chug if he mentions OPS.

Anyone else want to add to this? ;)

What are you trying to do - give me cirrhosis?

flyer85
03-07-2006, 11:19 AM
Looks to me that he might like guys "who play the game right" playing the game right is simply a euphemism for having no discernable skills to justify existence on a major league roster.

pedro
03-07-2006, 11:21 AM
Narron does have "good baseball face" ;)

vaticanplum
03-07-2006, 11:30 AM
This is my favorite headline ever.

I enjoy a good leadoff hitter and stolen base as much as the next guy, but if the great shining strength on your team is Adam Dunn, and the greatest weakness on your team is the entire pitching staff, I don't think any quantity of scrappy is really the way to go in improving your team. Being a good manager means playing to the construct of your particular team. Perhaps Narron would be better off coaching Little League.

NC Reds
03-07-2006, 11:34 AM
I hope Denorfia is rewarded with a roster spot on opening day. We'll see.

M2
03-07-2006, 11:35 AM
Seems to me Freel and Denorfia play a certain style. Ken Griffey Jr. plays a much more fluid game, but I don't for a second doubt that he's trying every bit as hard as they do. Speaking of trying hard, I continue to be baffled as to why Jason LaRue (who's a blood and guts a player as I've ever seen in a Reds uniform) doesn't get mentioned in the works his tail off category. Maybe he strikes out too much.

Anyway, Wily Mo Pena and Edwin Encarnacion strike me as hard workers too.

Yachtzee
03-07-2006, 11:42 AM
Tony Womack doesn't "play" outfield. He runs around in circles and occasionally the ball lands in his glove. He was horrible in the OF for the Yankees last year. Torre tried him in the OF because he was horrible at 2B.

Are you saying Womack = Timmy Lupus?

pedro
03-07-2006, 11:44 AM
Are you saying Womack = Timmy Lupus?

Timmy Lupus had boogers who were better fielders than Womack.

BRM
03-07-2006, 12:05 PM
Seems to me Freel and Denorfia play a certain style. Ken Griffey Jr. plays a much more fluid game, but I don't for a second doubt that he's trying every bit as hard as they do. Speaking of trying hard, I continue to be baffled as to why Jason LaRue (who's a blood and guts a player as I've ever seen in a Reds uniform) doesn't get mentioned in the works his tail off category. Maybe he strikes out too much.

Anyway, Wily Mo Pena and Edwin Encarnacion strike me as hard workers too.

Maybe you can't be labeled a hard worker if you strike out too much or are a young player? I don't know. No one works harder than Jason Larue but he gets no love from the masses.

registerthis
03-07-2006, 12:07 PM
You might as well shoot up with heroin if he mentions OPS.

Pfffttthhh!! :laugh:

I just spit coffee on my white shirt. Shall I send you the dry cleaning bill?

registerthis
03-07-2006, 12:09 PM
I think Jerry Narron is a scrappy baseball guy who knows how to manage the game the right way.

tbball10
03-07-2006, 12:23 PM
i dont know why everyone hates womack before he even plays his 1st game as a red... there is no reason to dislike him.

flyer85
03-07-2006, 12:29 PM
i dont know why everyone hates womack before he even plays his 1st game as a red... there is no reason to dislike him.I was thinking he could use a nickname.

How about Scrappy Doo.

http://www.yomomma.com/Writings/cantidoon/scrappy.jpg

tbball10
03-07-2006, 12:31 PM
I was thinking he could use a nickname.

How about Scrappy Doo.

http://www.yomomma.com/Writings/cantidoon/scrappy.jpg

well i dont understand the relevance that has to my post, but what is so bad about being a scrappy player, which i dont know if womack is or not, although i hope he is?

M2
03-07-2006, 12:36 PM
i dont know why everyone hates womack before he even plays his 1st game as a red... there is no reason to dislike him.

He didn't just appear from the ether. The guy's been in the bigs since 1997 and has, for the most part, been pretty awful.

flyer85
03-07-2006, 12:37 PM
well i dont understand the relevance that has to my postif we are going to like a guy he needs a good nickname.

BRM
03-07-2006, 12:38 PM
i dont know why everyone hates womack before he even plays his 1st game as a red... there is no reason to dislike him.

I don't dislike the man. I just think he's a horrible baseball player.

pedro
03-07-2006, 12:41 PM
I was thinking he could use a nickname.

How about Scrappy Doo.

http://www.yomomma.com/Writings/cantidoon/scrappy.jpg

I think we shoudl go XFL style and call him either "Sucky Doo" or "We Hate He"

tbball10
03-07-2006, 12:59 PM
im not saying he is a top tier 2nd baseman in mlb, but he is a pretty adequate player. he had a poor year last year, but it was partly because he didnt play everyday. i think he will have a decent year if he is the everyday 2nd baseman.

M2
03-07-2006, 01:05 PM
im not saying he is a top tier 2nd baseman in mlb, but he is a pretty adequate player. he had a poor year last year, but it was partly because he didnt play everyday. i think he will have a decent year if he is the everyday 2nd baseman.

Adequate how? He doesn't get on base well. He has no power. He's a lousy fielder. As far as I can tell, the only thing he's done consistently well in his career is run.

I love the running game (more than most), but it can't be a player's only identifiable skill.

Ga_Red
03-07-2006, 01:06 PM
2/09/07

pedro
03-07-2006, 01:13 PM
im not saying he is a top tier 2nd baseman in mlb, but he is a pretty adequate player. he had a poor year last year, but it was partly because he didnt play everyday. i think he will have a decent year if he is the everyday 2nd baseman.

yeah that war was fought and lost yesterday.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43526

westofyou
03-07-2006, 01:19 PM
More on "last year" ahhh.. the memories

http://www.yesnetworktv.com/yankees/news.asp?news_id=1130



TO THE BLOG WITH READER MAIL
1. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO HURT ME?
Hey Steve,
I agree with all those readers of your Pinstriped Bible columns about the personal nature of your attacks on Womack. I think it's awfully unfair to compare Womack with the league average left fielder. I think you should give him a break and compare him with the league average second baseman. He's got to be more productive than a league average second baseman, right? I mean, he's a Proven Veteran(TM)! — William

William, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. I'm going to pretend that you mean what you say. For the umptygooglillion time, I have never had a personal beef with any player regardless of his style or level of performance. The Pinstriped Bible is an argument about winning baseball. My only issue with a player is the degree to which he does or does not help a team win. Though I do admit to sometimes being turned off by a specific player — Jeff Weaver's defeatist body language, say — even that is a matter of the bottom line, not personality. Maybe Weaver is an expert on stamp collecting. Perhaps Womack has studied all the Russian chess greats. Enrique Wilson might love to share his mom's recipe for brownies. On that basis, I welcome one and all and root for them to succeed.

I don't mean to be sarcastic about comparing Womack to a second baseman and not a left fielder — I got several of these suggestions — but if we're going to do that, why stop there? Instead of comparing Jason Giambi to the average DH, maybe we can compare him to the average shortstop. We can compare the average shortstop to the Secretary of Defense. We can compare Derek Jeter to a slice of pumpkin pie, Peter the Great, or Joe Tinker. The Yankees are asking Womack to play left field, they have to compete with left field production from around the league, and therefore it is left fielders to whom Womack should be compared.

2. YOU REALLY DO WANT TO HURT ME
While Womack's stats do not match up and he is not a true left fielder, he does add more the you give him credit for. He is a type of player they have been missing since Chuck Knoblauch left. He steals a base, moves a runner, works the count. Somewhere on this payroll, this is what they need. Yes, having Manny Ramirez numbers out there would be great but he is another typical hitter in the Yankee lineup that has bogged down in the playoffs the last few years. The one-base-at-a time, all-or-nothing offense puts up great numbers but it does not win. The Orioles under Earl Weaver had this and could only manage one World Championship when the caliber of their team seemed to dictate that they should be ruling the roost. Bit players and guys that get dirty are just as important to making up a winning team than just having great numbers. As Jim Kaat constantly says on telecasts, "Speed does not usually stay in a prolonged slump." Give Tony some credit; he may not be a long term answer to the Yankee problem but he is a nice fit. — John

Respectfully, John, while the Yankees have needed more speed for a few years — in a general, universal sense — they didn't need it at the expense of playing hitters who can actually put runs on the board. Womack can get his uniform so dirty they have to hire a bulldozer to recover his body at the end of the game, but that won't make up even 10 home runs. Ten homers are 40 total bases and a guaranteed minimum of 10 runs. Ten stolen bases are 10 total bases, sort of — they don't move any of the other base runners, as actual long hits, like doubles, do. As for runs, there's nothing guaranteed about scoring at that point. That's if the player even reaches so he can steal…I can't go on. I just can't.

Suffice it to say that anyone who thinks the Yankees"bogged down" in the last few postseasons because they were missing a player like Womack wasn't paying attention, not even a little attention. And heck, how do you explain last year's Cardinals DOA World Series? They even had this Ruthian, game-breaking Womack on their roster and still failed to act as even a speed bump to the Red Sox. In truth, they got out-hit and out-pitched. Maybe that would have still been the case if they had, say, a second baseman who could hit instead of TW, but it sure wouldn't have hurt.

Good gravy. I need to lie down. I'll be back with more tomorrow.

Johnny Footstool
03-07-2006, 01:19 PM
How about Scrappy Doo.

That's a pretty good description of Womack's game. If you drop the "Scrappy" part.

KronoRed
03-07-2006, 02:32 PM
I swear we need a drinking game for Narron.

1 drink if he says someone "knows how to play the game"
1 drink if he refers to himself as a "baseball guy"
1 drink if he refers to "playing the game the right way."
Chug if he mentions OPS.

Anyone else want to add to this? ;)
I'd be dead by the 2nd article.

SunDeck
03-07-2006, 02:49 PM
It's spring and he's supposed to be hopeful, yet he doesn't have a whole lot of material to work with. Will we not be happy until he says that it doesn't matter if the Reds play hard this year, because the pitching is going to kill them? That'd be a heck of a way to start off the season.

wolfboy
03-07-2006, 04:26 PM
It's spring and he's supposed to be hopeful, yet he doesn't have a whole lot of material to work with. Will we not be happy until he says that it doesn't matter if the Reds play hard this year, because the pitching is going to kill them? That'd be a heck of a way to start off the season.


It's not a matter of being happy here. Narron is more likely to consult a magic eight ball in managing this team before using thoughtful analysis. That is the problem. He just doesn't get it, nor will he ever.

tbball10
03-07-2006, 07:38 PM
These are his last 2 full seasons:
2002 ARZ .271/.325/.353 29sb
2004 STL .307/.349/.385 26sb

These are not great by any means, but i would say they are decent seasons.

tbball10
03-07-2006, 07:46 PM
what is the evidence that he is a bad defensive 2nd baseman? i also don't believe torre moved him to the OF last year because of poor defense like someone said earlier, because he only made 1 error at 2b last year. i think it was more that they wanted to play cano.

pedro
03-07-2006, 07:51 PM
what is the evidence that he is a bad defensive 2nd baseman? i also don't believe torre moved him to the OF last year because of poor defense like someone said earlier, because he only made 1 error at 2b last year. i think it was more that they wanted to play cano.

you could look it up if you wanted.

he doesn't have very good range, he's made over 20 errors several times and he doesn't have a good arm.

pedro
03-07-2006, 07:55 PM
These are his last 2 full seasons:
2002 ARZ .271/.325/.353 29sb
2004 STL .307/.349/.385 26sb

These are not great by any means, but i would say they are decent seasons.

if you dig into his stats and compare him to other second baseman it's pretty evident that he isn't very good. With Aurilia, Freel and Menechino already around, Womack is probably the 4th best second baseman the Reds have in ST camp.

btw- I see the weather is nice in GA. I'll be there this weekend.

MartyFan
03-07-2006, 07:59 PM
I don't totally disagree...but carry that through and see what Sparky Anderson and Tommy LaSorda did in the MLB.

These guys who aren't All Stars have no business being managers.


Here are Jerry Narron's carreer stats. Looks to me that he might like guys "who play the game right" because that was the only way that anyone could possibly say anything possitive about him as a player because he certainly couldn't "play".



Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1979 23 NYY AL 61 123 17 21 3 1 4 18 0 0 9 26 .171 .226 .309 38 3 1 0 0 2
1980 24 SEA AL 48 107 7 21 3 0 4 18 0 0 13 18 .196 .279 .336 36 1 2 2 0 2
1981 25 SEA AL 76 203 13 45 5 0 3 17 0 0 16 35 .222 .285 .291 59 3 0 3 2 3
1983 27 CAL AL 10 22 1 3 0 0 1 4 0 0 1 3 .136 .174 .273 6 0 0 0 0 0
1984 28 CAL AL 69 150 9 37 5 0 3 17 0 0 8 12 .247 .286 .340 51 1 2 1 1 7
1985 29 CAL AL 67 132 12 29 4 0 5 14 0 0 11 17 .220 .280 .364 48 0 0 2 0 2
1986 30 CAL AL 57 95 5 21 3 1 1 8 0 0 9 14 .221 .292 .305 29 1 1 0 1 5
1987 31 SEA AL 4 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 .000 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 0 0
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
8 Seasons 392 840 64 177 23 2 21 96 0 0 67 127 .211 .270 .318 267 9 6 8 4 21

IslandRed
03-07-2006, 08:00 PM
These are his last 2 full seasons:
2002 ARZ .271/.325/.353 29sb
2004 STL .307/.349/.385 26sb

These are not great by any means, but i would say they are decent seasons.

Why are you excluding 2003 and 2005? He wasn't hurt for an extended period. He didn't get a full season's worth of at-bats in those years because he was riding the bench.

tbball10
03-07-2006, 08:09 PM
you could look it up if you wanted.

he doesn't have very good range, he's made over 20 errors several times and he doesn't have a good arm.

he's only made over 20 errors once in his career although he's made 20 twice. and you dont need a good arm from 2b. and i'm willing to put aurillia and freel in the same league, but menechino, are u kidding me?

...i'm a little north of atlanta and we are getting low to mid 60's weather in the afternoons, so it is pretty nice.

tbball10
03-07-2006, 08:12 PM
Why are you excluding 2003 and 2005? He wasn't hurt for an extended period. He didn't get a full season's worth of at-bats in those years because he was riding the bench.

i am excluding those 2 seasons for the reason i said i was, he didnt play a full season. i never said he was or wasnt hurt, i said when he got a full season of ab's he did a decent job.

pedro
03-07-2006, 08:22 PM
he's only made over 20 errors once in his career although he's made 20 twice. and you dont need a good arm from 2b. and i'm willing to put aurillia and freel in the same league, but menechino, are u kidding me?

...i'm a little north of atlanta and we are getting low to mid 60's weather in the afternoons, so it is pretty nice.

really I'm not kidding about Menechino. I'm not saying he should start, but I think he's probably a better guy to have on the team than Womack. His career OPS is .070 points higher.

going to be in the low 70's this weekend in atlanta .I'm looking forward to it.

westofyou
03-07-2006, 08:22 PM
i said when he got a full season of ab's he did a decent job

Yes, when Tony is allowed to make over 500 outs a season he can compile some "OK" counting stats, but his rate stats scream RETIRE.

IslandRed
03-07-2006, 08:49 PM
i am excluding those 2 seasons for the reason i said i was, he didnt play a full season. i never said he was or wasnt hurt, i said when he got a full season of ab's he did a decent job.

OK. It's just semantics, but to most people, "didn't get a full season's worth of at-bats" and "didn't play a full season" aren't the same thing. If a guy is in the majors all year and isn't injured, he played the full season. That doesn't necessarily mean he played full-time.

And it makes no sense to evaluate a guy on two of the last four seasons, discarding the two where he didn't play as much, when the reason he didn't play as much those years is because he was terrible. That's a meaningful bit of info when projecting how useful he'd be this year, isn't it?

Raisor
03-07-2006, 09:02 PM
btw- I see the weather is nice in GA. I'll be there this weekend.


I'll be sure everyone cleans up before you come.

pedro
03-07-2006, 10:11 PM
I'll be sure everyone cleans up before you come.

If you get route 20, I'll put my peeps on 400, 75 and 85. ;)