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View Full Version : Our farm system didn't have to be bad...



paulrichjr
03-07-2006, 05:12 PM
I look at some of the top talent in the minors or new guys in the majors that could have been Reds but management chose to go cheap and we lost out and I think what might have been. I'm not trying to rehash the past. I just got to thinking that our draft choices (or who we thought we were going to draft) actually have been a lot better than shows up in the results....we were just on a budget that didn't include having a minor league system and now it is showing up big time.

Think about a farm system that included:

Nick Markakis

Based on early indications, the Orioles might be tempted to award their left-field job to Nick Markakis, who reached base in eight of his first nine plate appearances.

Orioles vice-president Jim Duquette is not afraid to push young players he was an executive with the Mets when the team summoned shortstop Jose Reyes at age 20 in 2003 and third baseman David Wright at 21 in '04.

Reyes had 435 at-bats above Class A when he reached the majors, Wright 337. Markakis, 22, entered pro ball with more experience than those two; he played two years at junior college. Still, he has only 124 at-bats above Class A.



Jeremy Sowers -
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter#20060307
The front three of C.C. Sabathia, Cliff Lee and Jake Westbrook won 48 games in '05. GM Mark Shapiro went out and signed Paul Byrd and Jason Johnson to replace Millwood and Elarton and to eat innings and time until the next wave of starters arrives, led by Jeremy Sowers. And it will not be long with Sowers. The sixth pick in the '04 draft out of Vanderbilt has an uncanny ability to throw pitches wherever he wants whenever he wants. The staff even believes he might be better in the majors because he is so capable of executing game plans.


And of course the one that didn't get drafted but everyone thought the Reds were going to sign him (including Scott)

Scott Kazmir

I remember listening to him the day of the draft and he seemed surprised that the Reds passed him up because or his meetings with them. He even suggested that he was looking forward to pitching against them. Most people think their reluctance to draft him was due to his money demands that never existed.

Again I am not trying to live in the past but just got to thinking about what might have been if Carl had invested into the farm instead of into an aging shortstop.

Are there anymore guys that we drafted that didn't sign?


(By the way kudos to the guys who keep up with this stuff on this board. Most of the posters of those in the know were very disappointed that these 3 weren't signed or drafted)

dougdirt
03-07-2006, 05:15 PM
Well, there are some on here who will tell you had we signed Sowers and Kazmir, that they wouldnt be the pitchers they are now becuase we would have screwed them up. Markakis was like a 39th round pick, would have been nice to get him signed though....

westofyou
03-07-2006, 05:27 PM
Well, there are some on here who will tell you had we signed Sowers and Kazmir, that they wouldnt be the pitchers they are now becuase we would have screwed them up. Markakis was like a 39th round pick, would have been nice to get him signed though....
There are others here who see mud and want to call it chocolate.

dougdirt
03-07-2006, 05:38 PM
mmmm chocolate.

Aronchis
03-07-2006, 06:34 PM
The Reds easily could have signed Kazmir, even if he ends up as a Left Handed Billy Wagner. He had no intention of going to college and the Reds could have signed him in November. The Reds "scouts" simply loved Gruler so much. It is as simple as that. The "lack of money" excuse was pegged by Bowden to the media(which was his own fault) to cover up the fact the Reds scouting team failed again after Gruler's career ended shortly thereafter(his shoulder problems were already a issue even before he was drafted, labrums typically take a while to show, starting with fraying).

Markakis? They wanted to pay him, he didn't want it. Simple as that. He didn't want to play for the Reds. Ditched the team just like that. Pretty cold if you ask me.

Sowers? Never wanted to sign him. Drafted him so he wouldn't sign. Bowden's failure to "regularly" to fund the draft budget for payroll is widely known. When O'brien came in, the budget went up 1-1.5 million.

REDREAD
03-07-2006, 06:38 PM
A Reds' Scout also found Minguel Cabrera, the fantastic Marlins 3b/Of, but the Reds were too cheap to pay him the bonus (50k I think).

Also, the Reds refused to pay 60k for Jason Arnold, who was later traded as part of the Lopez deal (so he had a lot of value, even if he never makes it).

Aronchis
03-07-2006, 06:43 PM
A Reds' Scout also found Minguel Cabrera, the fantastic Marlins 3b/Of, but the Reds were too cheap to pay him the bonus (50k I think).

Also, the Reds refused to pay 60k for Jason Arnold, who was later traded as part of the Lopez deal (so he had a lot of value, even if he never makes it).

No, the "Cabrera" money was spent on the Guzman deal. The Reds offered 900000, the Marlins 1.6. The rest is history.

princeton
03-07-2006, 06:47 PM
they'd have a good system if they'd just provided princeton with a Baseball America subscription

SteelSD
03-07-2006, 06:49 PM
Well, there are some on here who will tell you had we signed Sowers and Kazmir, that they wouldnt be the pitchers they are now becuase we would have screwed them up.

Bunk. Folks around here were hoping beyond hope that the Reds would sign Sowers even if they did see it for the non-sign smokescreen it was because Bowden's draft budget was out of whack from wasting it on the likes of Espinosa and Sardinha (who smelled like Miguel Perez at the time, BTW). And if the Reds were fixated on having to take a HS arm, it was Kazmir- not Gruler- who was THE guy to take because he actually was the best overall arm in that draft.

Building strawmen don't work on those who've been around here long enough to know the truth.

dougdirt
03-07-2006, 07:40 PM
SteelSD, I am not saying anything about not signing Sowers, I know why they didnt sign Sowers. Its sad. Still there are those who will claim that had the Reds drafted him, he wouldnt have been anywhere near the same pitcher he is now.

acredsfan
03-07-2006, 08:15 PM
SteelSD, I am not saying anything about not signing Sowers, I know why they didnt sign Sowers. Its sad. Still there are those who will claim that had the Reds drafted him, he wouldnt have been anywhere near the same pitcher he is now.Well, i find it hard to believe otherwise when we've had so many top pitching prospects fall like we have. That plus tandem pitching and the pitch counts in the minors employed by DanO were not good rules. It's great that Homer has looked so promising, and maybe with the new people in charge we can develop him the correct way.

KronoRed
03-07-2006, 09:01 PM
No, the "Cabrera" money was spent on the Guzman deal. The Reds offered 900000, the Marlins 1.6. The rest is history.
We'd have just traded him for Romano :devil:

REDREAD
03-07-2006, 10:21 PM
No, the "Cabrera" money was spent on the Guzman deal. The Reds offered 900000, the Marlins 1.6. The rest is history.

No, you are wrong. John Allen insisted that the Guzman deal could only be made if it added nothing to the payroll. The original deal was BJ Ryan for Guzman. Bowden had to add a prospect to the deal so that the O's would eat the remaining salary on Guzman's contract 900k.

Maybe I was wrong on Cabrera's signing bonus, but even if the Marlin's paid 1.6 million, they sure are looking smart now, and the Reds are looking stupid.

Kc61
03-07-2006, 10:48 PM
The drafting of Gruler over Kazmir was the absolute low point of the Bowden regime. Reds had the number 3 pick overall. Kazmir was undeniably the top pitching prospect available then. Reds didn't want to pay him so they took Gruler despite a poor workout. Other teams passed up Kazmir too, but none needed the pitching as much as the Reds.

Gruler got hurt almost immediately. Kazmir is successful in the major leagues.

Just unforgivable.

Aronchis
03-07-2006, 11:05 PM
No, you are wrong. John Allen insisted that the Guzman deal could only be made if it added nothing to the payroll. The original deal was BJ Ryan for Guzman. Bowden had to add a prospect to the deal so that the O's would eat the remaining salary on Guzman's contract 900k.

Maybe I was wrong on Cabrera's signing bonus, but even if the Marlin's paid 1.6 million, they sure are looking smart now, and the Reds are looking stupid.

Nope, Guzman did raise the Reds payroll. The Reds paid Diaz 1.8 million, sometimes things don't go your way.

Betterread
03-08-2006, 12:03 AM
Bunk. Folks around here were hoping beyond hope that the Reds would sign Sowers even if they did see it for the non-sign smokescreen it was because Bowden's draft budget was out of whack from wasting it on the likes of Espinosa and Sardinha (who smelled like Miguel Perez at the time, BTW). And if the Reds were fixated on having to take a HS arm, it was Kazmir- not Gruler- who was THE guy to take because he actually was the best overall arm in that draft.

Building strawmen don't work on those who've been around here long enough to know the truth.

Espinosa and Sardinha did not receive any bonuses - instead of a one-time bonus, they signed ML contracts where they were paid an annual salary over 5 and 6 years respectively. The 2001 draft budget (allegedly - we will never know for certain) was "out of whack" because we spent 1.795 million on Howington and 1.8 million on Diaz in 1999, and this was apparently too much for one year so they carried over 2000 draftee Moseley's bonus into 2001, meaning there was about 1 million less (moseley's bonus) to spend on the 2001 draft.
It never seemed to me that the Reds really ever spent so much money on draftees, rather that they never budgeted properly. But that's my opinion.

SteelSD
03-08-2006, 12:55 AM
Espinosa and Sardinha did not receive any bonuses - instead of a one-time bonus, they signed ML contracts where they were paid an annual salary over 5 and 6 years respectively. The 2001 draft budget (allegedly - we will never know for certain) was "out of whack" because we spent 1.795 million on Howington and 1.8 million on Diaz in 1999, and this was apparently too much for one year so they carried over 2000 draftee Moseley's bonus into 2001, meaning there was about 1 million less (moseley's bonus) to spend on the 2001 draft.

It never seemed to me that the Reds really ever spent so much money on draftees, rather that they never budgeted properly. But that's my opinion.

Look again at what each of us posted. By handing those MLB contracts to Espinosa and Sardinha, Bowden was- in essence- prorating the signing bonuses for the two and carrying portions of it into the next season. That, coupled with Mosley's bonus carryover, would have resulted in about $1.55M being robbed from the 2001 draft allocation. There's your first rounder signing bonus right there. All courtesy of poor short-sighted money management by Bowden. The result was the Sowers PR ploy selection. Knowing that he was all but gone to college ball, Bowden could safely select him, offer him less than it would have taken to actually get him to sign, and hope to skate away without egg on his leather pants.

And yes, the Diaz signing could very well have been the primary catalyst to that high-risk pay-it-forward domino game. And frankly, it's probably moot because if Bowden hadn't stupidly mortgaged the future, it's very possible that the Reds would have selected someone in the first round that year who they actually could have signed at slot rate rather than having to overpay Sowers to skip higher education.

Eric in IL
03-08-2006, 10:34 AM
What about Andy D'Alessio? I remember the Reds not enough bonus money to him. Anyone know how he's doing at Clemson?

REDREAD
03-08-2006, 08:48 PM
Nope, Guzman did raise the Reds payroll. The Reds paid Diaz 1.8 million, sometimes things don't go your way.

I checked, and I was wrong.. We did get cash to pay a good chunk of Guzman's salary (at the expense of including Jacob Sequoia in the deal).
But we didn't get enough cash to pay the entire Guzman salary. So it did raise our payroll a little.

However, I don't remember reading that the Reds offered Cabera 900k.

Yes, Diaz was a mistake. It was dumb of Bowden not to verify the kid's age.

paulrichjr
03-09-2006, 03:01 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter#20060309

Nick Markakis has really caught the eyes of the Orioles, and scouts in general, so much so that he becomes an interesting entry in Baltimore's outfield race. "He takes great at-bats, and he can really hit," says one assistant GM. "He's one of the best young hitters around." Out of JC, the O's and Red Sox were the only teams that wanted him as a hitter, not a pitcher.

lollipopcurve
03-09-2006, 03:22 PM
What about Andy D'Alessio? I remember the Reds not enough bonus money to him. Anyone know how he's doing at Clemson?

He's eligible to be drafted this year, but, at least from what I've read, he hasn't improved his standing -- still considered to be about a 10th round choice (where the Reds took him).