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TeamBoone
03-13-2006, 11:10 PM
Why would Preston Wilson start over Willy Taveras? He's a strikeout waiting to happen. -- Kel V., Waxahachie, Texas

So is half the lineup. The reality of the modern-day slugger is, with power numbers come power strikeouts. Players have little interest in being singles and doubles hitters, and if they're swinging for the fences every time they bat, they're going to have their share of whiffs.

I marvel at Pete Rose's numbers -- he averaged a measly 52 strikeouts a year and logged more than 700 plate appearances. These days, it's perfectly normal for a hitter to strike out at least 100 times, usually more. And in the case of Adam Dunn, you can break the all-time single-season strikeout record and still be considered the best hitter on your team. Why? Because chicks aren't the only ones who dig the long ball. GMs like them, too.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060313&content_id=1347816&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

Kind of a dumb explaination from a baseball sports writer.

paintmered
03-13-2006, 11:16 PM
Because chicks aren't the only ones who dig the long ball. GMs like them, too.


Me thinks GMs are more baseball savy than this writer.

RedsIn07
03-13-2006, 11:17 PM
I think Alyson has an e-mail or two coming.

Nugget
03-13-2006, 11:23 PM
He does however have a fair point even though it is expressed rather flippantly. These days batting average is not the be all and end all of batting statistics. With OPS, OBP, SLG etc there are ways that a player can still be an effective batter without being the all round hitter. You can live with 200Ks a season if your hitting 40-50HRs as your OPS, OBP and SLG won't be as affected as your BA. A player who can hit for average with a decent OPS and OBP is someone who is now looked upon as being a leadoff hitter.

Essentially, the idea of what is the best hitter is changing.

harangatang
03-13-2006, 11:31 PM
190 strikeouts or 30 GIDP in a year, a dozen one way or 12 another.

TeamBoone
03-13-2006, 11:38 PM
He does however have a fair point even though it is expressed rather flippantly.

Exactly!

The question was "why"? She didn't tell the reader why, but instead got cutsie.

Nugget
03-13-2006, 11:45 PM
As we have seen with the coverage of our REDS sports reporters are not always of the same quality. I'm just glad that we have someone like Marc covering the REDS.

RedsManRick
03-14-2006, 02:21 PM
I hate when people use history as some kind of implied value. "It used be valued, but it's not anymore. Therefore we are wrong now." Huh? You see this logic all the time, but for some reason it seems to be at its worst in baseball. There is this implied understanding that people used to do things the right way, and now we're getting away from it. I thought we cared about scoring runs.

I suppose it has everything to do with people not wanting to be wrong. If you hold a certain value, and that value is threatened, you in turn feel threatened as well. The merits of the value become irrelevent. Given the weight baseball places on history, it makes sense to see this so prevelent.

Back 60 years ago, before we were using statistical analysis at the same level, it was difficult to actually measure the "loss" experienced in a strikeout. However, the shame of "losing" the at bat associated with it was quite obvious, and therefore the stigma. But know that we can say with evidence that Adam Dunn's offensive contributions lead to more runs than Pete Rose's, it makes those people very uncomfortable. Furthermore, because most of the people defending the historical perspective don't understanding the methods of reaching the conclusion, they dismiss the conclusion out of hand -- thereby protecting themselves. Joe Morgan, I'm looking at you.....

flyer85
03-14-2006, 02:23 PM
Does that mean the Astros won't be trading for Dunn?

ochre
03-14-2006, 02:30 PM
I hate when people use history as some kind of implied value. "It used be valued, but it's not anymore. Therefore we are wrong now." Huh? You see this logic all the time, but for some reason it seems to be at its worst in baseball. There is this implied understanding that people used to do things the right way, and now we're getting away from it. I thought we cared about scoring runs.

I suppose it has everything to do with people not wanting to be wrong. If you hold a certain value, and that value is threatened, you in turn feel threatened as well. The merits of the value become irrelevent. Given the weight baseball places on history, it makes sense to see this so prevelent.

Back 60 years ago, before we were using statistical analysis at the same level, it was difficult to actually measure the "loss" experienced in a strikeout. However, the shame of "losing" the at bat associated with it was quite obvious, and therefore the stigma. But know that we can say with evidence that Adam Dunn's offensive contributions lead to more runs than Pete Rose's, it makes those people very uncomfortable. Furthermore, because most of the people defending the historical perspective don't understanding the methods of reaching the conclusion, they dismiss the conclusion out of hand -- thereby protecting themselves. Joe Morgan, I'm looking at you.....
Argumentum ad antiquitatem

Patrick Bateman
03-14-2006, 02:31 PM
Does that mean the Astros won't be trading for Dunn?
No. Remember, our good friend AB guaranteed it.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 02:32 PM
Dunn isnt the best hitter on the team though.

TRF
03-14-2006, 02:36 PM
He actually is the best hitter on the team. Has been for 3 years now.

Chip R
03-14-2006, 02:38 PM
Dunn isnt the best hitter on the team though.
What is your definition for "best hitter"?

flyer85
03-14-2006, 02:40 PM
What is your definition for "best hitter"?Tony Womack for me.

pedro
03-14-2006, 02:41 PM
He may not be the best "hitter", but he is the most valuable "batter"

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 02:45 PM
What is your definition for "best hitter"?

Being able to hit for average and power. Dunn is easily the second best hitter on the team, but Griffey is a bit ahead of him.

BRM
03-14-2006, 02:48 PM
Tony Womack for me.

You just can't let it go, can you? ;)

TRF
03-14-2006, 02:51 PM
Being able to hit for average and power. Dunn is easily the second best hitter on the team, but Griffey is a bit ahead of him.

Blood in the water!

If he gets on base at a .380+ clip why do you care how he gets on base? OBP trumps BA. It tells more. Add SLG to the mix and voila! you have OPS.

So are you saying you would prefer .300 BA, .330 OBP and 40 HR's to .265 BA, .390 OBP and 40 Hr's? I wouldn't it's taken me a long time to realize that, but I wouldn't.

Chip R
03-14-2006, 02:52 PM
Being able to hit for average and power. Dunn is easily the second best hitter on the team, but Griffey is a bit ahead of him.

If that's your definition, you'd be right. Batting average is a nice way to see how much one hits safely but that's all it measures. A home run counts as much as a bunt single.

flyer85
03-14-2006, 02:52 PM
You just can't let it go, can you? ;)... just tryin to be nice. Afterall it ain't easy being green(not sure where that came from, maybe he reminds me of Kermit the Frog).

BRM
03-14-2006, 02:56 PM
... just tryin to be nice. Afterall it ain't easy being green(not sure where that came from, maybe he reminds me of Kermit the Frog).

Was Kermit fast like Tony?

flyer85
03-14-2006, 03:04 PM
Was Kermit fast like Tony?he was small and scrappy. He sured looked fast when Miss Piggy was after him.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 03:13 PM
I knew someone would bring up OBP over AVG, which is fine. But its the bottom of 9 and a guy on second. Who is going to get you a scoring hit? Adam Dunn wont 75% of the time. He may end up on first 38% of the time, but so will Griffey. Griffey is going to get a hit 5% more of the time though. And if we want to include sluggin percentage in it, then its still Griffey.

And TRF, I dont care how he gets on base. But the thing i said was he wasnt the best HITTER. And he isnt.

Jpup
03-14-2006, 03:17 PM
I would agree that Jr. is a better hitter than Adam Dunn. If Jr. is healthy, there are not many better.

Chip R
03-14-2006, 03:34 PM
I knew someone would bring up OBP over AVG, which is fine. But its the bottom of 9 and a guy on second. Who is going to get you a scoring hit? Adam Dunn wont 75% of the time. He may end up on first 38% of the time, but so will Griffey. Griffey is going to get a hit 5% more of the time though. And if we want to include sluggin percentage in it, then its still Griffey.


But you weren't talking about who is the best hitter with runners on base. You just said you thought Griffey was the best hitter cause he hits for average and power. And you are entitled to your opinion. But you moved the bar when you qualified your statement.

ochre
03-14-2006, 03:35 PM
I knew someone would bring up OBP over AVG, which is fine. But its the bottom of 9 and a guy on second. Who is going to get you a scoring hit? Adam Dunn wont 75% of the time. He may end up on first 38% of the time, but so will Griffey. Griffey is going to get a hit 5% more of the time though. And if we want to include sluggin percentage in it, then its still Griffey.

And TRF, I dont care how he gets on base. But the thing i said was he wasnt the best HITTER. And he isnt.
I want as many guys that make fewer outs in that situation as possible. If they happen to put some fear into the pitcher, all the better.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 03:38 PM
I dont think I moved the bar by saying Dunn cant hit with runners on base. Granted Dunn cant hit much either way. Dunn walks a ton, strikes out a ton and doesnt hit a ton.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 03:39 PM
Ochre, I will agree that I want guys who will make few outs in the situation, but Griffey and Dunn both get on base at a pretty similar clip. Griffey however gets a hit at a much greater clip.

BRM
03-14-2006, 03:42 PM
he was small and scrappy. He sured looked fast when Miss Piggy was after him.

He sure did. I don't think Kermit could lay down a bunt or hit a soft grounder to 2B to advance a runner though. Push comes to shove...I take Tony over Kermit.

ochre
03-14-2006, 03:56 PM
Ochre, I will agree that I want guys who will make few outs in the situation, but Griffey and Dunn both get on base at a pretty similar clip. Griffey however gets a hit at a much greater clip.
So they make outs at nearly the same rate?

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 03:57 PM
Yes they do ochre. They just dont HIT at same rate.

TRF
03-14-2006, 04:01 PM
Yes they do ochre. They just dont HIT at same rate.

no. they don't

OBP is related to not making outs. BA isn't. Last year Dunn had a .387 OBP, Jr. .369. Junior had a higher SLG., .576 to .540

I'd say it's a wash.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 04:04 PM
I was wrong with that. Numbers must have been wrong, becuase for some reason it was in my head Griffey had a .381 OBP last year. Regardless, I still think Griffey is a much better hitter than Dunn.

TRF
03-14-2006, 04:13 PM
Historically perhaps Griffey is. He's one of the best to ever play the game legit 5 tooler. Bowden's dream.

But Dunn is a different kind of hitter. Extreme plate discipline and awareness of what isn't a strike. He has a huge strikezone, and yet walks more than anyone not named Bonds. And yet we still complain about calls at his knees that while strikes for the rest of the Human Race should be Balls for Dunn. He's that big. Frank Thomas is a hobbit in comparison.

I like hits too. I wish cutting down on K's instantly meant more hits, but it doesn't. It leads to possibilities only, not hits. It could mean more hits, walks, GIDP, or any other type of out. It isn't a 1-1 relationship. it's one to many.

The thing is, you want a hit in that game on the line situation. I want the hitter to not make an out of any kind. It's almost the same.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 04:24 PM
Dunn may have extreme plate discipline, but that doesnt help him hit the ball. Just becuase he knows its a strike, doesnt help him put the bat on it. Dunn isnt the type of hitter Griffey is. Griffey hits the ball a lot more than Dunn does, and my point was that Griffey is the best hitter on the team.

osuceltic
03-14-2006, 04:25 PM
Blood in the water!

If he gets on base at a .380+ clip why do you care how he gets on base? OBP trumps BA. It tells more. Add SLG to the mix and voila! you have OPS.

So are you saying you would prefer .300 BA, .330 OBP and 40 HR's to .265 BA, .390 OBP and 40 Hr's? I wouldn't it's taken me a long time to realize that, but I wouldn't.

Here's the way I evaluate it: Who would I rather have up in a crucial at-bat? On my list, it's Griffey, then Dunn. It's that simple. And I can pretty much guarantee that opposing managers and pitchers would rather face Dunn than Junior in a big spot.

It's the eyeball test. You could look at the stats and feel like Dunn is the better hitter, but I think most people who watch the games would favor Junior.

Of course, they're both good hitters. It wouldn't be much of an argument if we were comparing Dunn and Jason LaRue.

TRF
03-14-2006, 04:29 PM
Dunn may have extreme plate discipline, but that doesnt help him hit the ball. Just becuase he knows its a strike, doesnt help him put the bat on it. Dunn isnt the type of hitter Griffey is. Griffey hits the ball a lot more than Dunn does, and my point was that Griffey is the best hitter on the team.

So last year was Sean Casey better than Junior?

Think about that.

registerthis
03-14-2006, 04:34 PM
I want as many guys that make fewer outs in that situation as possible. If they happen to put some fear into the pitcher, all the better.

I dunno, depends on what's coming up next. If it's a reasonably decent hitter, then sure, I'll settle for "don't make an out."

If it's a Womack or someone of similar ilk, I want the guy most likely to drive in the run right now. Simply getting on base won't do you much good if the guy behind you is destined to make an out. You could argue that Dunn is a player who could reasonably be expected to drive the run in, but my point is that "not make an out" may not be the sole qualifying factor here. But then again this is such a specific situation it hardly matters that much.

pedro
03-14-2006, 04:34 PM
So last year was Sean Casey better than Junior?

Think about that.

I'd really rather not. :p:

registerthis
03-14-2006, 04:35 PM
So last year was Sean Casey better than Junior?

Think about that.

He talked a lot more than Junior did, I'll give him that.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 04:38 PM
So last year was Sean Casey better than Junior?

Think about that.
No, becuase Sean Casey isnt the hitter Griffey is. Sean Casey hits for average and for double plays.

TRF
03-14-2006, 04:49 PM
I dunno, depends on what's coming up next. If it's a reasonably decent hitter, then sure, I'll settle for "don't make an out."

If it's a Womack or someone of similar ilk, I want the guy most likely to drive in the run right now. Simply getting on base won't do you much good if the guy behind you is destined to make an out. You could argue that Dunn is a player who could reasonably be expected to drive the run in, but my point is that "not make an out" may not be the sole qualifying factor here. But then again this is such a specific situation it hardly matters that much.

This points out just how bad Miley was at constructing his lineups. Dunn should have been the 2, 3 or 4 hitter. never 5, 6 or 7. 111 AB's as the #6 hitter last year, 17 as the #7. Criminal.

It's not like his plate discipline disappeared once he started hitting higher in the order. In fact it meant another good hitter now had the opportunity to drive in even more runs.

TRF
03-14-2006, 04:50 PM
No, becuase Sean Casey isnt the hitter Griffey is. Sean Casey hits for average and for double plays.

So. game on the line, his percentage of hits was higher. In fact his OBP was higher than Juniors too.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 04:59 PM
His obp was .002 higher, hardly a difference. Casey also had a knack for the soft hit ground ball. Heck even if Casey gets a hit, most of his hits arent scoring anyone from second base. Most of Griffeys would have.

TRF
03-14-2006, 05:08 PM
So, it's SLG? See if you consider the non out events Dunn is the guy for keeping an inning alive. For power? over the last three years, Dunn has been that guy too.

He's going to make fewer outs, and do more damage with his hits. Like I said, IMO last year was a wash. In 2004, Casey and Dunn were a wash, and that comparison is even better.

BTW, a soft hit GB that gets by the infield is a hit, and with the game on the line that runner from second will score, especially since it likely would have been FeLo or Freel as Casey has been the #3, 4 or 5 hitter for most of his career.

registerthis
03-14-2006, 05:11 PM
His obp was .002 higher, hardly a difference. Casey also had a knack for the soft hit ground ball. Heck even if Casey gets a hit, most of his hits arent scoring anyone from second base. Most of Griffeys would have.

I think the point is that AVG is a poor stat to use, on its own, when determining the quality of a hitter. No one in their right mind would value Casey as a greater offensive weapon than Junior.

registerthis
03-14-2006, 05:13 PM
This points out just how bad Miley was at constructing his lineups. Dunn should have been the 2, 3 or 4 hitter. never 5, 6 or 7. 111 AB's as the #6 hitter last year, 17 as the #7. Criminal.

...and idiotic. Miley was a career minor league manager, he never amounted to a hill of beans in the majors.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 05:17 PM
I think the point is that AVG is a poor stat to use, on its own, when determining the quality of a hitter. No one in their right mind would value Casey as a greater offensive weapon than Junior.

AVG isnt a bad stat to use when referring to being a good HITTER. If Adam Dunn only hits the ball into play and touches first base 25% of the time, and someone else is hitting the ball in play and getting on base 30% of the time, while puting up just as good power numbers, Griffey is a better hitter.

TRF
03-14-2006, 05:21 PM
I think the point is that AVG is a poor stat to use, on its own, when determining the quality of a hitter. No one in their right mind would value Casey as a greater offensive weapon than Junior.

ding ding ding! winner.

But he qualified it by mentioning percentage of hits. Casey had a higher percentage of hits, so in that game winning situation based on BA alone, he'd have to go with Casey. We all would.

Fortunately there are other better ways to determine what make a hitter "better" first thing we need to do is change "hitter" to "batter".

Next we need to understand that both teams get 27 outs. The Reds need guys that make fewer outs, because eventually those 27 are going to be recorded. I feel more confident an inning will continue when a guy that makes fewer outs comes to the plate.

Casey wasn't awful last year. His power just vanished. But he had a good OBP, and I felt ok watching him in that game winning situation, despite all the GIDP's. He had to be hurt IMO.

So maybe Junior's SLG gave him the edge over Dunn last year. Or maybe it was a wash because of Dunn's OBP. But the comparison of those two, and Casey and Dunn from 2004 have one thing in common: Adam Dunn.

TRF
03-14-2006, 05:25 PM
AVG isnt a bad stat to use when referring to being a good HITTER. If Adam Dunn only hits the ball into play and touches first base 25% of the time, and someone else is hitting the ball in play and getting on base 30% of the time, while puting up just as good power numbers, Griffey is a better hitter.

Which means what when the bases are empty? like when they lead off an inning?

OBP trumps BA.

westofyou
03-14-2006, 05:25 PM
AVG isnt a bad stat to use when referring to being a good HITTER.

"Hitter" why "hitter" because it doesn't fit into the context of batting?

Batting is the art of not making an out, hitting is the act of putting the bat on the ball.

Using your criteria for what a "hitter" is means that means not only is Griffey a better man at the plate than Dunn, but so are Rich Aurlia and Tony Womack.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 05:28 PM
becuase my statement was that Griffey was a better HITTER than Adam Dunn.

And for the record, with the game on the line I would have rather had RA at the plate than Adam Dunn last season.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 05:31 PM
and WOY, my opinion is that Griffey is easily the best guy to have at the plate, no matter what the situation is. He is the teams best all around hitter. He hits for average, he gets on base, he hits for power. Adam Dunn does 3 of those 4.

westofyou
03-14-2006, 05:31 PM
And for the record, with the game on the line I would have rather had RA at the plate than Adam Dunn last season.

Goody for you, I'd rather drink battery acid.

TRF
03-14-2006, 05:31 PM
becuase my statement was that Griffey was a better HITTER than Adam Dunn.

And for the record, with the game on the line I would have rather had RA at the plate than Adam Dunn last season.

and WOY, my opinion is that Griffey is easily the best guy to have at the plate, no matter what the situation is. He is the teams best all around hitter. He hits for average, he gets on base, he hits for power. Adam Dunn does 3 of those 4.



wow. well, 'nuff said. And you'd still rather have RA? just... wow.

woy, got any extra battery acid? I'm feeling parched.

ochre
03-14-2006, 05:37 PM
Close and late
Dunn:

AB BA OBP SLG OPS
75 .200 .341 .480 .821

Aurilia

AB BA OBP SLG OPS
60 .217 .299 .317 .616

Griffey

AB BA OBP SLG OPS
54 .278 .412 .722 1.134

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 05:37 PM
Nah, Rich Aurilia hit 95 points higher with runners in scoring position last year, and slugged exactly the same as Adam Dunn with runners in scoring position. Your hatred of Aurilia may shield you from seeing it, but last year with runners on base, he put up great numbers. Adam Dunn on the other hand hit .248 with runners in scoring position and didnt slug any better than Rich did. Tell me why you would rather have Dunn up in that situation.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 05:38 PM
ochre, what are those stats for?

ochre
03-14-2006, 05:42 PM
close and late.

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 05:43 PM
Gotcha.

westofyou
03-14-2006, 05:46 PM
Tell me why you would rather have Dunn up in that situation.Because my hatred of Rich Aurilia has blinded me from the fact that Dunn rarely gets challenged in the same situations that pitchers challenge the great Rich Aurilia.

Rich might have drew a 4's on alot of 17's last year, but odds say he'll be hard pressed to do it again.

Put Griffey behind Dunn and see what transpires.

TRF
03-14-2006, 05:47 PM
Dunn is 25, and is improving his game.

RA is on the wrong side of 30, and was in a 3 year decline before last year. Plus he stole development time from a FAR superior player in FeLo.

My hatred of RA as a player knows no bounds.

ochre
03-14-2006, 05:52 PM
You can only count on Aurilia to be better than putrid in GABp and Coors field?

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 07:05 PM
Put Griffey behind Dunn and see what transpires.

I will give you that one. I actually said that earlier in the thread. Dunn has no protection at all in the line up.

I also said I would have taken RA last year over Adam Dunn with a guy on with the game on the line, not this year or next year....becuase you are right. Rich isnt getting any younger, and a lot more often than not, guys skills decline rather than increase.

ochre
03-14-2006, 07:23 PM
I will give you that one. I actually said that earlier in the thread. Dunn has no protection at all in the line up.

I also said I would have taken RA last year over Adam Dunn with a guy on with the game on the line, not this year or next year....becuase you are right. Rich isnt getting any younger, and a lot more often than not, guys skills decline rather than increase.
Dunn was better last year with the game on the line. Take a look at RA's road splits and tell me you'd take RA on the road over anyone. :)

dougdirt
03-14-2006, 07:38 PM
On the road, I will take me over RA.

M2
03-14-2006, 09:55 PM
Aurilia hit better with RISP after he started batting in the #2 slot in front of guys like Jr. and Dunn. Early in the season in the #7 slot he was a complete flop in those situations (and all others to boot).

registerthis
03-15-2006, 10:02 AM
Aurilia is a serviceable backup, nothing more. I think people's complaints about Aurilia have significantly more to do with his perceived attitude and management's seeming insistence on thrusting him into a starting role than his skill set. He's a fine back-up, and his offensive numbers last year were solid for that role. No complaints from me there. It was his constant gripes to the media about his playing time, and Narron's acquiessence to those pleas that soured me on him.

Chip R
03-15-2006, 10:23 AM
Aurilia is a serviceable backup, nothing more. I think people's complaints about Aurilia have significantly more to do with his perceived attitude and management's seeming insistence on thrusting him into a starting role than his skill set. He's a fine back-up, and his offensive numbers last year were solid for that role. No complaints from me there. It was his constant gripes to the media about his playing time, and Narron's acquiessence to those pleas that soured me on him.

I think you're exactly right. People are also sour on him because he beat FeLo out for the starting SS job last spring, which wasn't his fault but he gets a lot of criticism because he threw a fit when he didn't start.

TRF
03-15-2006, 10:33 AM
I think you're exactly right. People are also sour on him because he beat FeLo out for the starting SS job last spring, which wasn't his fault but he gets a lot of criticism because he threw a fit when he didn't start.

You mean handed the SS job. FeLo clearly beat him, with his play from the previous season and ST.

Chip R
03-15-2006, 10:48 AM
You mean handed the SS job. FeLo clearly beat him, with his play from the previous season and ST.
Well, RA did beat FeLo out. It just wasn't a fair contest.

M2
03-15-2006, 10:52 AM
Well, RA did beat FeLo out. It just wasn't a fair contest.

True. I liked the way Aurilia had the job won before the first ST game.

What no one knew (though many suspected) was that the contest revolved around who could leave the overmatched Dave Miley the most starstruck.

ochre
03-15-2006, 11:03 AM
I'm still not convinced that Narron wasn't Miley's Rasputin.

flyer85
03-15-2006, 11:11 AM
I'm still not convinced that Narron wasn't Miley's Rasputin.Should he henceforth be known as the "Mad Manager"?

Chip R
03-15-2006, 11:17 AM
I'm still not convinced that Narron wasn't Miley's Rasputin.

I wouldn't doubt it. It's happened before, that's for sure. I remember Dick Williams thought Harry Dunlop was Jack McKeon's spy when he was managing in San Diego and Jack was GM there.

pedro
03-15-2006, 01:19 PM
I'm still not convinced that Narron wasn't Miley's Rasputin.

That leads me to wonder who then is Anastasia?

John Allen?

westofyou
03-15-2006, 01:22 PM
That leads me to wonder who then is Anastasia?

John Allen?
Bill Reik

pedro
03-15-2006, 01:29 PM
Bill Reik

I was thinking Allen because no one really knows if he is alive or not.

Chip R
03-15-2006, 01:30 PM
I was thinking Allen because no one really knows if he is alive or not.
Kinda like Abe Vigoda.

ochre
03-15-2006, 01:30 PM
I was thinking Allen because no one really knows if he is alive or not.
I always considered him Palpatine.

KronoRed
03-15-2006, 01:33 PM
I always considered him Palpatine.
Who's Anakin? :dunno:

pedro
03-15-2006, 01:34 PM
Who's Anakin? :dunno:

Chris Gruler

KronoRed
03-15-2006, 01:35 PM
We have to wait for Gruler's kid for redemption?

pedro
03-15-2006, 02:00 PM
We have to wait for Gruler's kid for redemption?

no. his arm fell off.

KronoRed
03-15-2006, 02:23 PM
no. his arm fell off.
I think we're in real trouble then

M2
03-15-2006, 02:25 PM
no. his arm fell off.

Has he changed his name to Hand Solo?

pedro
03-15-2006, 02:41 PM
Has he changed his name to Hand Solo?

there is nowhere else for this thread to go now.

http://www.wardofdesign.com/images/blog/darthTator.jpg

ochre
03-15-2006, 02:45 PM
pedro's law:
As a RedsZone discussion goes further along the probability of an appearance by potatovader approaches 1.

pedro
03-15-2006, 02:46 PM
pedro's law:
As a RedsZone discussion goes further along the probability of an appearance by potatovader approaches 1.


Darth Tator's first law of diminishing returns.

Raisor
03-16-2006, 05:54 AM
there is nowhere else for this thread to go now.

http://www.wardofdesign.com/images/blog/darthTator.jpg


I have one of these, by the way.

Yes, I'm THAT cool.

KronoRed
03-16-2006, 01:13 PM
You dress up like that too.

Dont you?

TeamBoone
03-16-2006, 01:36 PM
Doesn't everyone?