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TheBigLebowski
03-14-2006, 10:34 PM
With everything else remaining the same, would you want us to have a public celebration when/if he passes Ruth and Aaron?

The Giants plan to do so.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060315/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_giants_bonds;_ylt=AiJl1quHuDhkGieyjvHVN_2s0NUE ;_ylu=X3oDMTA3cm82NXAwBHNlYwM3NTU-

In my opinion, the organization either has to stand behind him, or suspend him.

While the right choice is probably to suspend him, we all know that isn't going to happen.

Makes me sick to think of Barry Bonds as baseball's home run king.

WVRedsFan
03-15-2006, 04:08 AM
AS the latest article on Barry Bonds was made public today -- the one where he told Junior that he was considering taking "the juice" to get the attention he thought he deserved -- I felt pity for the man. For all of his accomplishments, he had to cheat to be in the limelight, or so he thought.

And then you compare him with his friend, Ken Griffey, Jr. A man who was more concerned that his children would not get the right lesson from anything he would do. If there is anything that make you admire Junior more, I'd like to hear it.

That having been said, I think it's time for MLB and Bud Selig to make a stand on this matter. How do you let Bonds break the homerun record knowing what you now know? Why do you let it happen? Sure, folks say that Gaylord Perry doctored the ball and others used corked bats, but never in the history of the game has such accusations come out against a player. MLB didn't hesitate to ban Pete Rose, take him off the field, and deny him access to the game he loved so quickly when the word "gambling" was involved. In my eyes, Barry Bonds has done the same thing. He used illegal substances (even though baseball had not declared them illegal) to gain a performance advantage. How in the world do you ignore all of this and turn your head away at the scandal? Why not the swift action? Because he didn't ever test positive for steroids? Credible folks can testify and tell thier expereinces and still no comment or action? I am speechelss.

I guess it's a comment on our society in the 21st Century to let this go. Of course, it's not my decision and I am only a fan, but to me, it makes baseball the equivalent of the WWF to let this one go. Congress has investigated. One player testified emphatically that he did not take steriods and disappeared (and "bravo' to the Orioles for cutting him). This player continues on, hitting another home run today, and nothing is even mentioned.

I listened to Bonds the other day on one of the WBC games while the announcers nearly salivated at him being there and wondered what happened to the world I used to know. It used to be that these kind of folks were shunned and asked to answer for their transgressions.

Then I looked at the recent Daytone 500 where the winner's crew was caught cheating before the race and had been caught several times before that. Once again, folks looked the other way, without real punishment, and allowed the team to participate and win the event. And I wondered why those in charge let it happen. I guess I'm just not with it. Those that do wrong always have an excuse. And today we accept it without question because we are so in awe of the athlete. There's something wrong here. Maybe I need to go into a hole and never come out, but in my world Barry would have been retired forceably some time ago.

If there is a celebration, count me as one fan who will not watch. And when he is voted into the Hall of Fame (which he will be), this is one guy who just may walk away from the one sport I have loved since I was born.

Somebody please stop this madness.

Topcat
03-15-2006, 08:19 AM
I agree with alot of what you say and appluad your principles. But remember Gaylord Perry is in the hall of fame and even the idiots who follow baseball casually know he was a cheater.

princeton
03-15-2006, 12:30 PM
had we signed Larkin in the '82 draft instead of redrafting him three years later, I always figured that we would have drafted Bonds in '85

Bonds and EDavis in the same OF...

ochre
03-15-2006, 12:31 PM
Does that make Milton Loo the next Larkin?

redsfan30
03-15-2006, 12:33 PM
I remember rumors from I believe the 2001 season that Barry Bonds wanted to come play for the Reds so he and Junior could play together.

Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers.

princeton
03-15-2006, 12:35 PM
Does that make Milton Loo the next Larkin?

next Nick Markakis

Chip R
03-15-2006, 12:39 PM
"We don't root for people anymore — we root for laundry" - Jerry Seinfeld

TeamBoone
03-15-2006, 01:21 PM
Unfortunately, he hasn't been proven guilty. How does that get accomplished? Is anyone (or a group of anyones) even trying?

Until it's proven, it will go on and on and on.

KronoRed
03-15-2006, 01:59 PM
"If Barry Bonds had been a Red..."

He would have torn something at some point and flamed out

RedFanAlways1966
03-15-2006, 02:01 PM
Unfortunately, he hasn't been proven guilty. How does that get accomplished? Is anyone (or a group of anyones) even trying?

Until it's proven, it will go on and on and on.

The sad, but true, story to all this. I think the MLB brainiacs and the Player's Union are the true guilty ones. They knew about the "problem" and chose to ignore it while it sold tickets, t-shirts and anything else that would generate revenue. Money, money, money. It took our Federal Gov't to get anything done in this big mess that was allowed to happen by the afore-mentioned brainiacs and Union guys. And a lot of these people will act so naive and act like they are the ones who helped get the new policies there.

And for those who were in the position(s) to let the steroid thing get so out-of-hand... has anyone lost their job for it? Not that I have heard. :angry:

savafan
03-15-2006, 02:51 PM
I remember rumors from I believe the 2001 season that Barry Bonds wanted to come play for the Reds so he and Junior could play together.

Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers.

I recall that as well.

The more I hear concerning this, the more pity I feel toward Barry, but I still blame him and don't want to see him get anywhere near the record.

BCubb2003
03-15-2006, 03:03 PM
If the Reds were allowed to retire Pete Rose's jersey, would you go and cheer?

guttle11
03-15-2006, 03:57 PM
"If Barry Bonds had been a red..."

Most of us would support and defend him to no end. Don't even try to act like you wouldn't.

registerthis
03-15-2006, 05:15 PM
"If Barry Bonds had been a red..."

Most of us would support and defend him to no end. Don't even try to act like you wouldn't.

Why? Simply because he would have worn a reds uniform? There are many, many people here who have no love for Pete Rose and don't defend him at all. I don't see why it would be different for Bonds.

KronoRed
03-15-2006, 06:04 PM
Most of us would support and defend him to no end. Don't even try to act like you wouldn't.
Nah, I know a skunk when I see one..even on my fav team

GAC
03-15-2006, 09:00 PM
"If Barry Bonds had been a red..."

Most of us would support and defend him to no end. Don't even try to act like you wouldn't.

I don't need to act - No, I wouldn't defend him. Rose was my idol growing up, yet I have never defended what he did. ;)

guttle11
03-15-2006, 10:10 PM
Ok, not everyone, but the vast majority. :mooner:

Reds Nd2
03-15-2006, 11:50 PM
Ok, not everyone, but the vast majority. :mooner:

Bonds was also Pirate at one time. I don't see many Pittsburgh fans defending him.

Yachtzee
03-16-2006, 09:26 AM
If Bonds had been a Red, I'd probably be more like my dad and wouldn't be following baseball as much anymore.

registerthis
03-16-2006, 10:10 AM
If Bonds had been a Red, we'd have a third of our payroll tied up in one player. And y'all thought Junior's contract was bad...

cReds1
03-16-2006, 12:54 PM
Not so fast, Mr. Bonds....

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/400137p-339001c.html

or should I say Giants.

registerthis
03-16-2006, 01:21 PM
I don't see how Selig could NOT investigate this. What will come of the investigation is another matter altogether, but Selig would have come across as completely impotent if he hadn't at least taken it this far.

GAC
03-16-2006, 09:16 PM
Investigate - yes. But do anything about it? We'll see. I really don't see where he can do much, when anything he tries to do, from a disciplinary level, is gonna be staunchly opposed by the player's union. You have to be in violation of an EXISTING rule.

KronoRed
03-16-2006, 09:18 PM
Use the "best interest of the league" reason.

..and if the union wants to fight..fight em.

Mainspark
03-16-2006, 09:27 PM
I'm fairly certain the rumor, such as it was, in the early 1990s stemmed entirely from comments Bonds made when he was unhappy about his contract status.
He said something to the effect that he and Griffey were friends and maybe he should play out his career with the Reds. I don't think he was serious.

dman
03-16-2006, 10:35 PM
ACCOUNTABILITY:Liable to being called to account; answerable. Also see definition for Responsible.

Start with Selig. He's trying to backpeddle in a pool of quicksand. He's either giving lip service or he really thinks that he can undo 8+ years of this crap. I, of all people would like (and hope) to see Bonds banished from MLB in Pete Rose fashion. But the mindset of many would have Bonds being a sacrificial lamb for this whole ordeal.

Next is the Owners/Managers/Coaches. They knew what was going on They chose to ignore it instead of calling it what it was and nipping it in the bud.

The Media. They always have sources for their trade rumors, but when a player bulks up to Incredible Hulk style physiques, they don't question it. I guess not, as long as monsterous dingers (and lots of them) are being hit, thereby causing televised game ratings to go through the roof.


People may wonder why I didn't list the fans. I don't feel like the fans should share in the fault. After strikes in previous years, a lot of fans felt that MLB was dying game and rightfully so. Although Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa (and many others) are cheaters, they did bring excitement into the game. Excited fans did what they were supposed to do. They went to the ballpark and watched the games and supported their respective teams and players.

Normally I don't post anything that would condone this, but for Barry not to get the record, you would have to get a hard throwing pitcher with a set of stones the size of Texas (Randy Johnson or Roger Clemens come to mind) to throw a heater right at Barry (hopefully not his head) and cause a career ending injury. I once again emphasize I am not condoning this.

registerthis
03-17-2006, 10:43 AM
ACCOUNTABILITY:Liable to being called to account; answerable. Also see definition for Responsible.

Start with Selig.

No, I start with Bonds. Everyone else you mentioned is certainly accountable as well, but no one forcibly injected him with anything, and no one forced him to lie about it after he did. Selig and the baseball Powers That Be allowed this to happen--knowingly--for years and years, and the media ate up the home run records like the after church special at the Old Country Buffet. They bear a responsibility. But to say that any of them bear more responsibility than the man who actually shot up with steroids is to say, at some level, that he was just a victim of circumstance here. And I don't believe that.

dman
03-17-2006, 01:33 PM
No, I start with Bonds. Everyone else you mentioned is certainly accountable as well, but no one forcibly injected him with anything, and no one forced him to lie about it after he did. Selig and the baseball Powers That Be allowed this to happen--knowingly--for years and years, and the media ate up the home run records like the after church special at the Old Country Buffet. They bear a responsibility. But to say that any of them bear more responsibility than the man who actually shot up with steroids is to say, at some level, that he was just a victim of circumstance here. And I don't believe that.
You are exactly right. It starts with the man who did it. And I meant to put him first and got sidetracked with all the others.

Dom Heffner
03-17-2006, 02:30 PM
I agree with alot of what you say and appluad your principles. But remember Gaylord Perry is in the hall of fame and even the idiots who follow baseball casually know he was a cheater.

Geesh, give the Perry thing a rest.

1) He was voted into the Hall of Fame close to 15 years ago, so this discussion has been meshed out already with the baseball writers. They knew he at least admitted it and decided to vote him in. Apparently they thought it wasn't a serious enough offense to keep him out of the hall for. If you want to have a discussion about whether Gaylor Perry belongs in the hall or what type of player he is, open up a thread about it. This discussion is about Barry Bonds.

2) Perry admitted to cheating in a book while he was still playing, and he still only got caught a whopping one time, IIRC. An umpire and opposing batter watched every single pitch he threw, and if his pitches were so deceptive, how come he was only caught once?

With Bonds, the umpires can't see into his bloodstream, they can't blood test him, they can't do anything. The comparison is simply not fair, unless you want to look at this as cheating is cheating. That's your perogative, but if you think a person who steals a penny is no different than someone who steals a million dollars because stealing is stealing, then I'd like to know your checking account numbers.


3) Scuffing a baseball or placing vaseline on it on occasion is not nearly as grave an offense as juicing up your body to cheat during every moment of the game. Steroids allowed Bonds to recover faster and become stronger, which means that pretty much every move he made on the field was tainted.

Bonds cheated on every swing, Perry threw a tainted ball so often that he only got caught one time in his entire career.

Yeah, Perry may have admitted doing it more, but again, the umpires and batters saw every single pitch he threw. He wasn't throwing in a vacuum, unlike Bonds sitting in some dark room injecting himself with cattle by-products.

As well, the balls were being replaced at a rate that the chances of getting caught would have been tremendous, because Perry had no control of where the ball would end up after he threw it. Umpires look at balls all the time to decide if one should be replaced, at the start of each inning, when they are fouled off, when they leave the park, when they get a little dirt on them. Each one of these events is a chance he gets caught.

Guess what the chances of Bonds getting caught were? Zero, unless someone opened up their mouth on him.

4) And before you start posting stats from the 1920s to show the stats before and after the allowance of spitters, remember one thing: Spitters then are inherently different from ones today because those baseballs were kept in play for games on end. That was never the case in Perry's day, and it changes the circumstances to the point that it isn't worth arguing about. The balls were tough to hit because they were darkened from wear and tear, tobacco juice and anything else somebody wanted to put on them, because it ws legal to do so. Perry was not afforded these luxuries. He would have to do things to the ball with things in his glove and then start the whole process over everytime a ball was replaced. It simply isn't the same thing.

Also Perry was trying to hawk a book. Wilt Chamberlain claimed to have slept with 50,000 women, which would have been impossible. How much is true and how much is Gaylord toying with us? Who knows? He only got caught one time, and every single one of his pitches was seen by at least three people (two of which would have questioned him had they seen anything suspicious).

6) If throwing a spitter increased the performance of a player to the point he could reach the hall of fame, how come we haven't seen an onslaught of spitball throwing pitchers? How many people throw a spitter today?

Now compare that with the number of people doing steroids.

The reason people are doing roids is because it works.

If throwing a spitter could get you into the hall of fame and it is so easy to do without getting caught, people would be doing it. Records would be falling, pitchers would be having success, and it wouldn't matter how many people were on steroids because no one could see the ball to hit it (assuming that they are even effective today's game).

If you want to compare athletes who cheated to Bonds, compare ones who did the exact same thing, not to someone who used a nail file to scuff the ball.

GAC
03-17-2006, 04:39 PM
While I agree with you on your Perry assessment. Just because he was sly and only got caught once doesn't mean that he wasn't doing it on a regular basis.

But I liked Gaylord. Bonds - it's another story. He makes it very easy to dislike him with a heat that is as intense as 10 burning suns. :p:

I still remember watching Don Sutton pitch many years ago, and when the umpire came out from behind the plate to check him, and when he pulled his hand out of his back pocket acting innocent and to say "What?", everyone on TV saw something come flying out of his back pocket. Busted! :lol:

OldRightHander
03-19-2006, 05:22 PM
Take this for what you will, but I heard an interview with Perry once that was a bit interesting. He said that he had such a reputation for being a spitballer that there were many times he didn't even have to throw it, but the hitter had that in the back of his mind and would often get himself out by not being ready for a different pitch. That doesn't excuse the times he did throw it, but apparently the reputation he had was somewhat more exaggerated than the reality. As for Bonds, I don't think I would have excused his actions if he had played for the Reds. I root for the Reds first and individual players second. It is the team that matters to me more.

GAC
03-19-2006, 08:29 PM
Take this for what you will, but I heard an interview with Perry once that was a bit interesting. He said that he had such a reputation for being a spitballer that there were many times he didn't even have to throw it, but the hitter had that in the back of his mind and would often get himself out by not being ready for a different pitch. That doesn't excuse the times he did throw it, but apparently the reputation he had was somewhat more exaggerated than the reality. As for Bonds, I don't think I would have excused his actions if he had played for the Reds. I root for the Reds first and individual players second. It is the team that matters to me more.

That "psychological edge". Cobb used it effectively too. Not that he wasn't an SOB; but when there were things said about him that we exaggerations or a little over the top, he went out his way not to deny them because he said it made others fear him even more, and gave him an added edge.

KearnsyEars
03-20-2006, 09:54 AM
WV Red: Great post. I won't leave the game of baseball as a fan ever, but I feel the way you do-- how are we any different than fans of WWE at this point ya know?