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View Full Version : What's wrong with Denorfia???



scounts22
03-21-2006, 10:56 AM
Ok. After the events of yesterday (whether you like them or not), where the heck does Denorfia fit it? Will he make the roster? As I stated in a previous thread, I would love to see him in the outfield now and keep Dunn at first. That would keep Hatteberg on the bench at least, and as for Womack, maybe he'll get lost on the way home from Florida. ;) Or, does anyone know how to contact Tonya Harding? Perhaps she could hook us up with a few...um...resources...:evil:

flyer85
03-21-2006, 11:11 AM
Ok. After the events of yesterday (whether you like them or not), where the heck does Denorfia fit it? at AAA. Seems like he really isn't in the mix:dunno:

roby
03-21-2006, 11:17 AM
The Reds are missing a big opportunity if they DON'T start Denorfia. He would really shore up the outfield defense (thus helping the pitching), and would also be a contributor with the bat. (something that I don't thnk Hatteburg will do). It seems like a no-brainer!

flyer85
03-21-2006, 11:18 AM
The Reds are missing a big opportunity if they DON'T start Denorfia. He would really shore up the outfield defense (thus helping the pitching), and would also be a contributor with the bat. (something that I don't thnk Hatteburg will do). It seems like a no-brainer!Doesn't it though. Which makes you wonder about the quality of the "brains".

NC Reds
03-21-2006, 11:23 AM
I agree that Denorfia should be in the mix. My lineup:

Freel 2B
FeLo SS
Griffey LF/CF (depending on his overall health)
Dunn 1B
Kearns RF
EdE 3B
Larue C
Denorfia LF/CF
Pitcher's spot

This lineup has speed at the top and can manufacture runs.

Compare with the projected opening day lineup (just my opinion):

Womack 2B
FeLo SS
Griffey CF
Dunn LF
Kearns RF
Hatteburg 1B
EdE 3B (beware of Aurilia spot starts off and on all year)
Larue C
Pitcher's spot

I know which lineup I prefer. Hint: it has no journeymen hanging onto the end of their average careers.

registerthis
03-21-2006, 11:25 AM
I am really, really confused by this.

Anyone who read the WMP trade thread knows where I stand as far as the trade goes. But the corresponding moves--putting Dunn back in LF and starting Hatteberg at first--are really confusing.

Did the Reds not spend the entire winter telling us how their long term plans for Dunn were for him to be at first base?

Was not Hatteberg sigend to be a cheap, veteran backup--with the full knowledge that he would not be starting?

Has Denofria not shown this spring that he is capable of playing at the ML level?

Does this franchise have a complete aversion to offering Freel any semblance of stability at one position?

I am very perplexed by this whole turn of events. I can't se ethem sticking with Hatteberg for very long, but why he's considered a viable option at all is completely mystifying to me.

flyer85
03-21-2006, 11:26 AM
Did the Reds not spend the entire winter telling us how their long term plans for Dunn were for him to be at first base?"deja vu all over again". Makes the organization look schizophrenic.

pedro
03-21-2006, 11:28 AM
I am really, really confused by this.

Anyone who read the WMP trade thread knows where I stand as far as the trade goes. But the corresponding moves--putting Dunn back in LF and starting Hatteberg at first--are really confusing.

Did the Reds not spend the entire winter telling us how their long term plans for Dunn were for him to be at first base?

Was not Hatteberg sigend to be a cheap, veteran backup--with the full knowledge that he would not be starting?

Has Denofria not shown this spring that he is capable of playing at the ML level?

Does this franchise have a complete aversion to offering Freel any semblance of stability at one position?

I am very perplexed by this whole turn of events. I can't se ethem sticking with Hatteberg for very long, but why he's considered a viable option at all is completely mystifying to me.

I think that's Jerry Narron.

Hopefully he'll be cut off at the pass.

flyer85
03-21-2006, 11:28 AM
I can't se ethem sticking with Hatteberg for very long, but why he's considered a viable option at all is completely mystifying to me.It is likely the worst of all potential options as is the case with Womack which has to lead people to question if the Reds have any clue at all.

IslandRed
03-21-2006, 11:30 AM
I am really, really confused by this.
Did the Reds not spend the entire winter telling us how their long term plans for Dunn were for him to be at first base?


True. But then, that was someone else's front office.

registerthis
03-21-2006, 11:32 AM
It is likely the worst of all potential options as is the case with Womack which has to lead people to question if the Reds have any clue at all.

It is. And it's got to be confusing for Dunn, who has spent the past several months working on his first base skills, and suddenly finds himself thrust back into LF.

It is these kinds of moves that make the organization look completely incompetent. I have no problems trading Pena for Arroyo if it's part of an overall plan. But guys like Hatteberg and Womack aren't part of any long term plan, we gain no value from them appearing in the lineup on a daily basis. I'll say it again--it just doesn't make sense. Almost makes me think there's some other trade in the works. The situation on the right side of the infield is just too bizarre.

oneupper
03-21-2006, 11:38 AM
I think there is a good chance that Denorfia could stick as an OF and get quite a bit of PT.

Here's what I believe Narron is looking at:

1B: Hatteberg, Aurilia, Valentin, Dunn (in that order)
2B: Womack, Aurilia, Freel (in that order)
SS: FeLo, Aurilia
3B: EdE, Aurilia, Freel
LF: Dunn
CF: Jr
RF: Kearns
OF Denorfia or Freel
C LaRue, Valentin

Narron doesn't want Freel anywhere near 2B. Aurilia is now the IF supersub. And Denorfia is the OF defensive replacement/spot starter (when Jr sits). Freel...well he plays when Aurilia is playing elsewhere and if Womack isn't around to lead off.

Jr needs a blow at least once a week (preferably against LH).
Hatteberg and Womack look to sit against LH, if possible (Hatteberg's splits are poor).

flyer85
03-21-2006, 11:38 AM
But guys like Hatteberg and Womack aren't part of any long term plannor should they be part of any short term plan or even part of any major league roster.

Sea Ray
03-21-2006, 11:57 AM
I am really, really confused by this.


I am very perplexed by this whole turn of events. I can't se ethem sticking with Hatteberg for very long, but why he's considered a viable option at all is completely mystifying to me.

Let me help clear it up for you.

First thing is they don't like Dunn at 1B and maybe that's because Dunn himself prefers LF. Marty said yesterday that Dunn was pleased with the trade because it meant going back to LF. They also feel that Dunn is a better LF than a 1B. So if you start with the premise that Dunn does not play 1B regularly then the choices are kind of limited.

Secondly they like Hatteberg not as a superstar but as a Joe Randa type that solidifies a team. Hatteberg is not a powerful 1B but he's played regularly there for the A's who were pretty successful. The Braves and Indians are examples of other contenders who do not get big numbers out of the 1B position.

So it's really clear what they want. They want more pitching, more defense and less strike outs and this trade accomplished all of that.

Don't expect Dunn to play regularly at 1B for the next few years. I don't think he wants it and neither does Krivsky.

As for Denorfia he has options and we know what that means. He starts the year in Louisville

TOBTTReds
03-21-2006, 12:00 PM
I agree that Denorfia should be in the mix. My lineup:

Freel 2B
FeLo SS
Griffey LF/CF (depending on his overall health)
Dunn 1B
Kearns RF
EdE 3B
Larue C
Denorfia LF/CF
Pitcher's spot

This lineup has speed at the top and can manufacture runs.




NC Reds, there is one major problem with this lineup. It makes sense! What were you thinking?

registerthis
03-21-2006, 12:05 PM
Let me help clear it up for you.

Yep, it's clear as mud.

Hatteberg isn't a "Randa-type" player by any comparison. He lacks Randa's skills both from a defensive and offensive standpoint. This trade doesn't help the defense at all--it takes away an awful defensive outfielder and replaces him with a sub-par defensive outfielder, and adds a sub-par defensive first baseman to along with an awful defensive second baseman. A team *truly* concerned about defense would have Kearns in right, Denorfia in center, and Junior in left, with Dunn honing his skills as a first baseman and Freel manning second base. That would also, coincidentally, provide the Reds with their strongest possible offensive lineup.

Sea Ray
03-21-2006, 12:12 PM
Yep, it's clear as mud.

Hatteberg isn't a "Randa-type" player by any comparison. He lacks Randa's skills both from a defensive and offensive standpoint. This trade doesn't help the defense at all--it takes away an awful defensive outfielder and replaces him with a sub-par defensive outfielder, and adds a sub-par defensive first baseman to along with an awful defensive second baseman. A team *truly* concerned about defense would have Kearns in right, Denorfia in center, and Junior in left, with Dunn honing his skills as a first baseman and Freel manning second base. That would also, coincidentally, provide the Reds with their strongest possible offensive lineup.

Their thinking is that Hatteberg is better defensively than Dunn at 1B and Dunn is better in LF than Wily Mo.

Your scenario involves two position switches which is seldom a good thing (Jr and Dunn). Add to that the reality that those two are superstars making tons of money and neither one of them wants to switch. I don't think that's a battle they care to fight right now. The benefits would be marginal and not worth the grief. Kind of like trying to move Barry Larkin to 2B. Those moves are not going to improve the team like moving Pete Rose to 3B did in 1975. I don't see it happening in the real world. It's just Redszone talk.

registerthis
03-21-2006, 12:17 PM
Their thinking is that Hatteberg is better defensively than Dunn at 1B and Dunn is better in LF than Wily Mo.

Your scenario involves two position switches which is seldom a good thing (Jr and Dunn). Add to that the reality that those two are superstars making tons of money and neither one of them wants to switch. I don't think that's a battle they care to fight right now. The benefits would be marginal and not worth the grief. Kind of like trying to move Barry Larkin to 2B. Those moves are not going to improve the team like moving Pete Rose to 3B did in 1975. I don't see it happening in the real world. It's just Redszone talk.

Junior strikes me as the kind of player who would be willing to move if he thought it would be beneficial to the team. I think, first and formost, Junior wants a championship, and anything he could do to further that cause would be worth pursuing. At the very least, the Reds could insert Denorfia into LF and continue to work with Dunn at first. Dunn will never be an exemplary outfielder, but he could become a very soolid first baseman.

There likely are politics involved, I don't doubt that. But guys like Hatteberg and Womack are the answer to nothing. Any team that believes that players of that caliber are deserving of a prominent role with the team are relegating themselves to a bottom-of-the-division finish.

flyer85
03-21-2006, 12:19 PM
Their thinking is that Hatteberg is better defensively than Dunn at 1B and Dunn is better in LF than Wily Mo.That is some great one-dimensional thinking on their part.

dfs
03-21-2006, 12:39 PM
Did the Reds not spend the entire winter telling us how their long term plans for Dunn were for him to be at first base?
Brought to you by the same folks that told you Austin Kearns was going to be our third baseman. Oops.

Does this franchise have a complete aversion to offering Freel any semblance of stability at one position?
Yes

As to Hatteberg. Krivsky is from the same front office that convinced the world that Doug Meintkiewicz was a starting first baseman. I suspect he is a believer in first base defence.

BRM
03-21-2006, 12:41 PM
As to Hatteberg. Krivsky is from the same front office that convinced the world that Doug Meintkiewicz was a starting first baseman. I suspect he is a believer in first base defence.

If he is truly a believer in first base defense, he'd want no part of Scott Hatteberg.

TeamBoone
03-21-2006, 02:14 PM
If Hatteberg stinks up the joint, they'll hopefully divert to Plan A, and replace WMP in the OF with Denorfia.

How long before you think that will happen?

TC81190
03-21-2006, 02:20 PM
2B Freel
SS Lopez
1B Dunn
LF Griffey
3B Encarnacion
RF Kearns
CF Denorfia
C LaRue

Please.

Please.



PLEASE!!

KronoRed
03-21-2006, 03:38 PM
If Hatteberg stinks up the joint, they'll hopefully divert to Plan A, and replace WMP in the OF with Denorfia.

How long before you think that will happen?
It'll take Narron being fired.

Who really gives a flip if Dunn prefers left? he signed a 3 year contract, his options are limited.

Team Clark
03-21-2006, 03:42 PM
The Reds are missing a big opportunity if they DON'T start Denorfia. He would really shore up the outfield defense (thus helping the pitching), and would also be a contributor with the bat. (something that I don't thnk Hatteburg will do). It seems like a no-brainer!

I agree. I have seen him play in 6 games this spring and he has impressed me quite a bit. Reminds me of Brady Clark.

BRM
03-21-2006, 03:47 PM
Denorfia still has options. In Reds World that means he's ticketed for AAA while McCracken and Womack clog up the big league roster.

TeamBoone
03-21-2006, 04:08 PM
It'll take Narron being fired.

Who really gives a flip if Dunn prefers left? he signed a 3 year contract, his options are limited.

Yes, he prefers left... but he was more than willing to play first.

ajmlx9
03-21-2006, 11:42 PM
Denorfia just isn't that good. Once guys are around for more than a month, teams start to figure out how to pitch them. There are many many many examples. Bo Hart, StL. Chris Stynes in his debut with the reds.

Look at Denorfia. He's a stick figure. He can't handle the MLB. He's hitting
.250 in SPRING TRAINING. Come on.

Patrick Bateman
03-21-2006, 11:57 PM
Denorfia just isn't that good. Once guys are around for more than a month, teams start to figure out how to pitch them. There are many many many examples. Bo Hart, StL. Chris Stynes in his debut with the reds.

Look at Denorfia. He's a stick figure. He can't handle the MLB. He's hitting
.250 in SPRING TRAINING. Come on.

Yeah and Adam Dunn is hitting 235. Time to shake things up, get some guys that can handle ST. Lets go get 25 Tony Womacks he knows how to do it. While we're at it let's get Claussen some at-bats. He's hitting 400.!!!!!!!!!! He needs to start everyday.

I think you are misinformed with Denorfia. He actually has some skills. He can field with good range, has a very good arm, and does everythin else fairly well including having the patience to take a walk. If given a decent chance I bet Denorfia would surprise a lot of people.

jnwohio
03-22-2006, 12:19 AM
Does this franchise have a complete aversion to offering Freel any semblance of stability at one position?


When he plays everyday, he gets hurt, run down etc and misses a lot of time; and as somebody else has said it looks like they don't want him near 2nd.

With the new regime in place and some of the other moves, when you do the math, it is not that difficult to come up with a scenario where Freel doesn't even make the team, especially if they end up going with 3 catchers.

I think Kata makes the team becasue he is only viable backup shortstop and can also play 2nd and third. Aurilia is back up at 3rd, 2nd and 1st.

Wise or Cruz is going to make the team as as a lefthanded bat off the bench (Wise gives them a more versatile OF so it is probably him).

So for position players

LaRue
Valentin
Ross
Hatteburg
Aurilia
Womack
Lopez
Encarnacion
Kata
Griffey
Kearns
Dunn
Wise

There are 13 without Freel. The 3rd catcher becomes the righthanded bat off the bench if Aurilia is starting. Womack is the 5th outfielder. Denorfia gets the call up if an OF goes down.

Not saying it will go down this way or that it is my first choice; but when you look at what is going on, you have to wonder.

Cedric
03-22-2006, 12:23 AM
He has options. That's what is wrong with him.

And Freel not making the team isn't an option.

kyred14
03-22-2006, 01:06 AM
2B Freel
SS Lopez
1B Dunn
LF Griffey
3B Encarnacion
RF Kearns
CF Denorfia
C LaRue

Please.

Please.



PLEASE!!

It just seems too easy doesn't it? Too bad the folks who's jobs it is to figure this out, can't

KronoRed
03-22-2006, 02:33 AM
Freel not make the team? the Reds are stupid enough not to start him, but they aren't that dumb.

scounts22
03-22-2006, 08:02 AM
It just seems too easy doesn't it? Too bad the folks who's jobs it is to figure this out, can't

AMEN.

Willy
03-22-2006, 09:12 AM
Something here doesn't seem right. Everyone knows the lineup and Defense would be better with Freel or Denorfia in Left, but now we hear that Dunn is going back to Left and we are going to piece together 1B.

I have to think Dunn went to management and told them to get him back in the outfield. Their is no other possible reason Not to play either Freel or Denorfia everyday.

My lineup
Freel LF
Lopez SS
Griffey CF
Dunn 1B
Kearns RF
Rich 2B
Ed E 3B
Larue C

registerthis
03-22-2006, 09:20 AM
When he plays everyday, he gets hurt, run down etc and misses a lot of time; and as somebody else has said it looks like they don't want him near 2nd.

Funny, the same could be said of Wily Mo, Junior or AK.

As far as Freel not making the team...that is not even within the realm of possibility.

registerthis
03-22-2006, 09:21 AM
Look at Denorfia. He's a stick figure. He can't handle the MLB. He's hitting
.250 in SPRING TRAINING. Come on.

Yes, he should be OPSing 1.500 like Encarnacion is. COME ON.

RedsBaron
03-22-2006, 09:22 AM
It is. And it's got to be confusing for Dunn, who has spent the past several months working on his first base skills, and suddenly finds himself thrust back into LF.

It is these kinds of moves that make the organization look completely incompetent. I have no problems trading Pena for Arroyo if it's part of an overall plan. But guys like Hatteberg and Womack aren't part of any long term plan, we gain no value from them appearing in the lineup on a daily basis. I'll say it again--it just doesn't make sense. Almost makes me think there's some other trade in the works. The situation on the right side of the infield is just too bizarre.
I agree. The Reds are not going to the World Series in 2006. I want to win, and win now, but the Reds should be looking at guys who may help them win both now and in 2007 and 2008. In Arroyo, Harang and Claussen they now have three starting pitchers who should be able to help them win in 2007-08. In Dunn, Lopez and perhaps Kearns they have three bats who can help them win in 2007-08. Guys such as Womack, Aurilia and Hatteberg are maginal at best to the Reds winning this year, and cannot be expected to be of any help at all in 2007-08. The Reds should be playing guys such as Denorfia and EE, guys who can help them win both now and two seasons from now.

Sea Ray
03-22-2006, 10:12 AM
I think Kata makes the team becasue he is only viable backup shortstop and can also play 2nd and third. Aurilia is back up at 3rd, 2nd and 1st.



:confused:

Aurilia was the Opening Day SS as recently as last year. He is definitely a viable backup SS. I don't see what Kata contributes that we don't already have covered somewhere else.

KoryMac5
03-22-2006, 11:55 AM
Aurilia has only played first base once in his ten yr major league career. It might get scary with him out there.

IslandRed
03-22-2006, 12:00 PM
Aurilia has only played first base once in his ten yr major league career. It might get scary with him out there.

That's one thing I'm not worried about. If you can play any other infield position, you can play first.

scounts22
03-22-2006, 12:00 PM
Aurilia has only played first base once in his ten yr major league career. It might get scary with him out there.

It's a little scary with Aurillia out there period! :scared:

KronoRed
03-22-2006, 12:58 PM
It's a little scary with Aurillia out there period! :scared:
How bout an infield of Hatteberg, Womack and Aurilia?

Terror doesn't come close.

osuceltic
03-22-2006, 01:42 PM
I think the Hatteberg-Randa comparison is pretty accurate. Neither were long-term answers, and the club knows that. Hatteberg will give them solid, if unspectacluar, defense at first and production at the plate. I'd say he's comparable to Sean Casey at a fraction of the cost. I expect his home run numbers to go up a little based on the park he's playing in as opposed to playing in Oakland.

He is what he is, and hardly worth the moaning we've seen on the subject. Teams field guys like Hatteberg all the time. They're temporary until they can find a more permanent solution. Believe it or not, the fact that Krivsky hasn't instantly turned this into a team stocked with long-term answers at every position and a wealth of prospects isn't an indictment of his abilities. The fact that he added a legitimate major league starting pitcher under cost control for the next three seasons and hasn't touched the core of the team tells me he's off to a pretty good start.

flyer85
03-22-2006, 01:48 PM
Hatteberg will give them ... production at the plate.There's little reason to believe that. His projected VORP for 2006 is negative(-4.0) which means he offense is likely worthless. His 2005 VORP was -3.6

Any other option the Reds could think of will likely be better than Hatteberg.

Willy
03-22-2006, 02:42 PM
I think the Hatteberg-Randa comparison is pretty accurate. Neither were long-term answers, and the club knows that. Hatteberg will give them solid, if unspectacluar, defense at first and production at the plate. I'd say he's comparable to Sean Casey at a fraction of the cost. I expect his home run numbers to go up a little based on the park he's playing in as opposed to playing in Oakland.

He is what he is, and hardly worth the moaning we've seen on the subject. Teams field guys like Hatteberg all the time. They're temporary until they can find a more permanent solution. Believe it or not, the fact that Krivsky hasn't instantly turned this into a team stocked with long-term answers at every position and a wealth of prospects isn't an indictment of his abilities. The fact that he added a legitimate major league starting pitcher under cost control for the next three seasons and hasn't touched the core of the team tells me he's off to a pretty good start.

Nice Post!!!

Sea Ray
03-22-2006, 04:10 PM
There's little reason to believe that. His projected VORP for 2006 is negative(-4.0) which means he offense is likely worthless. His 2005 VORP was -3.6

Any other option the Reds could think of will likely be better than Hatteberg.

He's likely to be "as productive" as Sean Casey. Last year he drove in about the same amount of runs as Casey and I'm willing to bet he'll ground into fewer DPs.

He is what he is and I'm OK with him at 1B for 2006. We've got much bigger problems.

flyer85
03-22-2006, 04:24 PM
I'm willing to bet he'll ground into fewer DPs. Hatteberg in a less ABs hit into 22 DPs last year. May not want to go out any further on that limb. After watching him run your reaction is likely to be "wow, he is slower than Casey".

Dunner44
03-23-2006, 10:13 AM
Ok, back onto the original topic.... Denorfia.... look at these pictures and try to tell me he isn't scrappy....

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2006/01/26/w7lhKK7D.jpg

That constipated look in the left handed pic... in a word: "scrap-tastic"

scounts22
03-23-2006, 10:18 AM
Ok, back onto the original topic.... Denorfia.... look at these pictures and try to tell me he isn't scrappy....

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2006/01/26/w7lhKK7D.jpg

That constipated look in the left handed pic... in a word: "scrap-tastic"

Absolutely. :thumbup:

registerthis
03-23-2006, 10:20 AM
To answer this thread's original question--nothing. But it seems he's just not getting a fair shake, getting nothing but late-inning at-bats and defensive replacement status in ST games. Does not bode well.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
03-23-2006, 10:48 AM
freel and Womack are interchangeable, last years numbers are very close. Why does everybody hate this guy so much?

BRM
03-23-2006, 10:51 AM
freel and Womack are interchangeable, last years numbers are very close. Why does everybody hate this guy so much?

You mean other than Freel having nearly 100 points on him in OBP and SLG? They aren't even in the same league.

Freel: 271/371/377
Womack: 249/276/280

scounts22
03-23-2006, 11:06 AM
freel and Womack are interchangeable, last years numbers are very close. Why does everybody hate this guy so much?




You mean other than Freel having nearly 100 points on him in OBP and SLG? They aren't even in the same league.

Freel: 271/371/377
Womack: 249/276/280



And maybe the fact that Freel isn't an egotistical maniac.

registerthis
03-23-2006, 11:15 AM
You mean other than Freel having nearly 100 points on him in OBP and SLG? They aren't even in the same league.

Freel: 271/371/377
Womack: 249/276/280

..and better defense, and more speed, etc.

But beyond that, they're essentially the same player.

KronoRed
03-23-2006, 01:23 PM
The only thing they have in common is 4 letter first names.

Chip R
03-23-2006, 01:43 PM
They can't have Denorfia and Bronson on the same team cause Deno will be Bogarting all the babes. ;)