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View Full Version : Gammons: Scouts worried about Reds Defense.



paulrichjr
03-24-2006, 01:07 AM
Maybe this is another reason that Pena was traded...to get Dunn back to left.



http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter#20060323

Marte making positive impressionposted: Thursday, March 23, 2006

The Indians have been impressed by Andy Marte's bat and work habits, but general manager Mark Shapiro insists that Marte will open the season in Buffalo. "It's only right," Shapiro said. "He's never really opened in cold weather, and Buffalo is a good preparation for Cleveland." Shapiro also said that there is no consideration for moving Marte to first base or right field.

This has been a good spring for the Indians' two closest starting pitchers, Fausto Carmona and Jeremy Sowers. The 23-year-old Carmona was 93-96 mph most of the spring with his improving slider and probably is first in line, followed by Sowers. And if Casey Blake struggles out of the gate, Franklin Gutierrez, who is a great defensive center fielder, could get a shot in right. Gutierrez took a huge jump in his approach and plate discipline this winter in Venezuela and carried it over to spring training.



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It may be just spring training, but Scott Kazmir's struggles this March raise the issue of how much his career may have been impacted by being rushed to the majors too soon. Good lesson.



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One former Brewers coach said, "When it's all said and done, J.J. Hardy may turn out to be the best of their young infielders. He's going to fill out to 6-3, maybe 200 pounds, he could someday hit 20 homers, and he's a really good defensive shortstop. The improvement he made in the second half of last season was amazing."



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[B]Reds manager Jerry Narron calls Edwin Encarnacion "the Grapefruit League MVP," but scouts are very concerned about the infeld defense, especially Dunn at first. "He just doesn't seem to take to the position," said one AL scout. "He's pretty rough over there."

KronoRed
03-24-2006, 02:48 AM
Hatteberg isn't so much better to offset the loss of O by taking Deno or Freel out of the lineup.

To me I think Narron and/or Krivsky decided long before ST that they wanted Dunn back in the OF.

REDREAD
03-24-2006, 09:24 AM
Hatteberg isn't so much better to offset the loss of O by taking Deno or Freel out of the lineup.

To me I think Narron and/or Krivsky decided long before ST that they wanted Dunn back in the OF.


I think it's more of a case that Krivisky realized that he absolutely HAD to trade an OF for pitching this spring. If Kearns or Pena turned in another year where they didn't break out, their value would drop even more. I know some people don't think Arroyo was fair value, but IMO, that's fallout from DanO's years of inaction. DanO let their prospect label wear off.

Freel at 1b might be worth trying. We have to consider that even though Dunn didn't pull a Soriano, he does not really want to play 1b. I'm willing to give WayneK some time to solve the 1b problem. I'd rather have a hole at 1b than to hand a slot in the rotation to someone like Gosling.

traderumor
03-24-2006, 10:05 AM
I'm starting to see a pattern. Hatteberg is this year's Rich. Were that one guy the only thing contributing to five straight losing seasons.

KearnsyEars
03-24-2006, 10:14 AM
I don't want dunn at first. I think he's a lifetime LF. Keep him happy. He is the nucleus.

deltachi8
03-24-2006, 10:58 AM
There was so many opportunities fro Dunn at 1b this spring, I mean, how couldn't you come to that scout's conclusion?

Roy Tucker
03-24-2006, 11:00 AM
Tucker: RedsZone also worried about Reds Defense

princeton
03-24-2006, 11:01 AM
first base is the least of our defensive problems. It's just first base.

the rest of the field-- you know, where most balls actually drop in for hits-- ugh.

Chip R
03-24-2006, 11:12 AM
first base is the least of our defensive problems. It's just first base.

the rest of the field-- you know, where most balls actually drop in for hits-- ugh.

Yeah. Unless he's Ron Blomberg and balls are clanking off his glove, I don't think it's that big of a deal. But the people making the decisions feel otherwise.

M2
03-24-2006, 11:20 AM
first base is the least of our defensive problems. It's just first base.

the rest of the field-- you know, where most balls actually drop in for hits-- ugh.

Exactly. It's like trying to fix a car with thrown engine rod by trying to change the tires.

deltachi8
03-24-2006, 11:21 AM
dont forget the johnson rods and starter hoses.

pedro
03-24-2006, 11:29 AM
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer: Some Reds baseball logic make unfrozen caveman lawyer angry and confused.

IslandRed
03-24-2006, 12:21 PM
I don't remember when it was, exactly, maybe back in '04, but I remembered looking at a Reds lineup and thinking, "except for the catcher, every single guy is playing out of position."

If Krivsky's ongoing roster makeover starts with putting the biggest bats in the places where they're most comfortable and dealing with the other positions in turn, then I can live with that. It's not unreasonable to look at Dunn and say "he doesn't like first, he doesn't play it all that well, leave him alone and I'll deal with first base some other way." Instead of playing square pegs/round holes indefinitely, Krivsky will attempt to find better defensive fits, and unlike with O'Brien, there's a chance it'll be done in our lifetimes.

Of course, comfort doesn't infer excellence, and the Griffey problem will have to be addressed at some point.

OldXOhio
03-24-2006, 12:28 PM
Hatteberg is this year's Rich.

Which would translate roughly into the following for SH for 2006:

17 HR
75 RBI
.275 AVE
.775 OPS

Now i'm not crazy about Hatteberg being the everyday 1B, but strictly from an offensive stand, those numbers are remarkable Casey-esque.

Chip R
03-24-2006, 12:46 PM
Which would translate roughly into the following for SH for 2006:

17 HR
75 RBI
.275 AVE
.775 OPS

Now i'm not crazy about Hatteberg being the everyday 1B, but strictly from an offensive stand, those numbers are remarkable Casey-esque.

True but he'll be making quite a bit less than Casey.

max venable
03-24-2006, 12:50 PM
I'm tellin' ya...Dunn's gonna move back to LF and your favorite and mine, Mr. Rich Aurilia, is going to be our new 1B.

BRM
03-24-2006, 12:53 PM
Which would translate roughly into the following for SH for 2006:

17 HR
75 RBI
.275 AVE
.775 OPS

Now i'm not crazy about Hatteberg being the everyday 1B, but strictly from an offensive stand, those numbers are remarkable Casey-esque.

If Hatteberg puts up numbers like those, I'll be very pleased.

Caveat Emperor
03-24-2006, 12:54 PM
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer: Some Reds baseball logic make unfrozen caveman lawyer angry and confused.

Sphinx: "When you can shun those who flick your defense, you will cure your defensive afflictions"

Far East
03-24-2006, 01:19 PM
I can't believe that Dunn is a worse first baseman than he is an outfielder. For years I've lamented his inability -- or unwillingness -- to go back on (catchable, IMHO) fly balls.

OTOH, I've seen him bring his outfielder's glove to the SS position during ST BPs (beside Larkin usually) and make some nifty snags of grounders, even backhanded and even on bad hops.

I realize there's more to it than fielding grounders, but stick him at 1B for more more than one ST and for more than one regular season and he'll prove to be cause fewer problems there than in LF, IMHO -- in addition to opening up an OF spot for a legitimate fly chaser equipped with better glove, arm, tracking skills, and wheels.

If Soriano can be shifted to an unfavorite position, ...

princeton
03-24-2006, 01:29 PM
let's see-- it's a HR era and we're worried that we won't get enough glove from our first baseman?

I'll bite: I'm worried that our relief pitchers won't steal enough bases and that we don't have enough utility players

oh and that my wife thinks that I'm way too sexy

RedsBaron
03-24-2006, 01:31 PM
oh and that my wife thinks that I'm way too sexy
I have the same problem-man, it's hard to deal with that burden, isn't it?;)

max venable
03-24-2006, 01:56 PM
Is this our next 1B?

From the Denver Post:

(Ryan Shealy) has great character, is a tireless worker and a nifty fielder, hit .330 in 36 big-league games last season and provides protection should Helton's back flare up again.

Shealy is likely to begin the season on the disabled list or with Triple-A Colorado Springs. Rockies general manager Dan O'Dowd has no immediate plans to shop Shealy but didn't rule out a future trade.

A team such as Cincinnati, with Scott Hatteberg at first base, could have a place for Shealy. Boston and Cleveland had expressed interest, but there is no fit for Shealy at this point. The Indians are happy with Ben Broussard and Eduardo Perez.

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_3630065

max venable
03-24-2006, 02:00 PM
Oh...and this must be added:

From Hal McCoy Thursday:


HM:Perhaps there is a trade in the wind?
Krivsky smiled with a glint and said, “We’ll see how it plays out.”

princeton
03-24-2006, 02:35 PM
how does a blind man see a glint?

Chip R
03-24-2006, 02:40 PM
how does a blind man see a glint?

Maybe that's what blinded him. ;)

pedro
03-24-2006, 02:45 PM
Maybe that's what blinded him. ;)

it sure wasn't science.

deltachi8
03-24-2006, 03:03 PM
I have the same problem-man, it's hard to deal with that burden, isn't it?;)

princeton's wife thinks your sexy too?

I thought it was just Raisor?

:mooner:

westofyou
03-24-2006, 03:08 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050918&content_id=1214661&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin


Dunn's a man who likes to move. He doesn't want to be tied down to a bag, waiting to scoop up throws from fellow infielders.

"You don't move enough at first base," he said. "At least once, twice or three times a game, you run after balls and it kind of loosens you up. But when you first get to the bag, you just stand around. I just don't build up a good sweat over there."

Adam Took a page from Ned Williamson when he balked at the move this winter, mostly because he liked to "run it out" in the outfield.

From 1888

http://www.baseballminutia.com/images/colt.gif

traderumor
03-24-2006, 03:23 PM
The Indians are happy with Ben Broussard and Eduardo Perez.

The question is, should they be?

KronoRed
03-24-2006, 03:31 PM
Is this our next 1B?

From the Denver Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_3630065
He's not an old vet so no he can't be ;)

If the D were such a concern then JR being moved to LF or RF should have been issue 1.

BRM
03-24-2006, 03:35 PM
If the D were such a concern then JR being moved to LF or RF should have been issue 1.

Exactly. As M2 said the other day, Krivsky is only paying lip service to improving the defense as long as he's willing to leave Junior in CF.

Doc. Scott
03-24-2006, 03:58 PM
I'm telling you, it's like Jim Bowden and toolsy outfielders or Dan O'Brien and the Eighty-Seven Express:

Wayne Krivsky looooooooves him some 1B leather. Fallout from one Doug Mientkiewicz.

What I am hoping for is that the same thing shows itself as it relates to Torii Hunter and Ken Griffey Jr.

westofyou
03-24-2006, 04:07 PM
Wayne Krivsky looooooooves him some 1B leather. Fallout from one Doug Mientkiewicz.That's a carpet love that should wilt in the humid air of a Cincinnati summer.

Spitball
03-24-2006, 04:39 PM
I don't get all the hoopla over Hatteberg at first. It would be nice to upgrade the position, but there seem to be several eyewitnesses that testify to the "Dunn is not an option" verdict. I have not read one eyewitness nor statistic that says Dunn was playing acceptably nor showing any natural aptitude for the position.

Is it the issue over Hatteberg's defense? I don't believe there is a real good statistic to show the true defensive value of first basemen. Range is not the key issue at first since very few playable balls are pulled or poked in that direction. The vast majority of balls handled by first basemen are on throws from infielders and that requires instinctive movement on contact in order to set for receiving the ball. I understand Hatteberg is very good at this aspect of the position. (BTW, I recently saw a defensive statistic that ranked Kevin Millar near the top of defensive range for first basemen. That is an absolute joke.)

To me, the problem shouldn't be Hatteberg, because I believe he is an acceptable stopgap for now. I'd rather have him setting up to receive throws from young infielders (Encarnacion, Lopez) than an inexperienced Dunn. These young infielders will have enough problems without dealing with Dunn's learning process.

RedsManRick
03-24-2006, 05:38 PM
The problem about poor outfield defense is that it costs you doubles and triples. Poor IF defense costs you mostly singles. Having a Freel or Denoria in LF and Dunn at first would save us more runs than Dunn in LF and Hatteberg at 1B.

The problem with Hatteberg at 1B is that his bat will likely hurt us over the other defensive alignment and the defensive improvement is likely less that we're led to believe. Not having Wily Mo out there is a positive step defensively. But the step down offensively will probably negate the runs we just saved.

Spitball
03-24-2006, 06:28 PM
The problem about poor outfield defense is that it costs you doubles and triples. Poor IF defense costs you mostly singles. Having a Freel or Denoria in LF and Dunn at first would save us more runs than Dunn in LF and Hatteberg at 1B.

The problem with Hatteberg at 1B is that his bat will likely hurt us over the other defensive alignment and the defensive improvement is likely less that we're led to believe. Not having Wily Mo out there is a positive step defensively. But the step down offensively will probably negate the runs we just saved.

I don't buy there is an upgrade defensively with Freel over Dunn. I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.

Dunn's inexperienced defensive movement and lack of timing at first could have further reaching effects than just one infield position. Encarnacion, for one, is a young player with developing throwing skills who would not benefit from Dunn's learning experience.

RedsManRick
03-24-2006, 06:42 PM
I don't buy there is an upgrade defensively with Freel over Dunn. I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.

Dunn's inexperienced defensive movement and lack of timing at first could have further reaching effects than just one infield position. Encarnacion, for one, is a young player with developing throwing skills who would not benefit from Dunn's learning experience.

I'll grant you the fact that we really don't know the differences here. Any arrangement in which Wily Mo isn't playing LF is better than one where he is. That said, I'd rather have Denorfia/Freel in the lineup over Hatteberg.

Of course, the real problem is Junior's horrible range in CF. He may always catch what he gets to, but with him in CF the alleys are nice and wide. I'm not sure how much I buy the health excuse for keeping him in CF. Denorfia or Kearns even in CF would help the defense significantly.

RFS62
03-24-2006, 10:20 PM
First base isn't as easy to play as many people make it out to be.

I don't know how much work Adam has done towards the transition. If he didn't come to spring training with the attitude that he was going to work his butt off improving his craft, we'll all get to see a good bit of his learning curve during the regular season.

It's not an automatic that you can put a good athlete over there and play on the major league level.

M2
03-24-2006, 11:45 PM
I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.

What's to doubt? He's fast. He gets a good break on the ball. He takes great routes and has a good arm. He's a good MLB CF. The Reds instead seem bound, set and determined to play a CF whose range has dropped to nil.

Jr.'s been a glaring defensive liability for four seasons and, IMO, the Reds aren't going anywhere until he's moved out of the middle of the field.

KronoRed
03-25-2006, 12:31 AM
JR is a vet, and the same thing that gets Womack, Aurilia and Hatteberg a lot of at bats will leave JR in CF, he's a veteran player who has "earned it"

Spitball
03-25-2006, 09:11 AM
What's to doubt? He's fast. He gets a good break on the ball. He takes great routes and has a good arm. He's a good MLB CF. The Reds instead seem bound, set and determined to play a CF whose range has dropped to nil.

This is really beside the point I was making, but, where are you getting this information? I'm curious because everything I've read has him quite average. This is a typical report:

by Jonathan Mayo (MLB.com) :
Chris Denorfia, OF

From a tools perspective, Denorfia isn't going to blow anyone away. Most of his skills grade out to average or a tick above. But he's an overachiever who gets the most out of his abilities.

Do you have a link to a scouting report that reports on his speed, breaks, routes?

Red Thunder
03-25-2006, 09:21 AM
First base isn't as easy to play as many people make it out to be.

Indeed. I also find it odd that some here seem to disregard that the vast majority of outs is recorded at first base. Having at least decent defensive skills as first baseman is a key factor for the overall infield defense as well.

Spitball
03-25-2006, 09:36 AM
Indeed. I also find it odd that some here seem to disregard that the vast majority of outs is recorded at first base. Having at least decent defensive skills as first baseman is a key factor for the overall infield defense as well.

Exactly, and we have at least two erratic arms on the left side.

I didn't play first very often, but I found it the most difficult position for me. The footwork can be hard, especially when a shortstop's throw is doing a nasty curve into the dirt a foot before your glove.

RedsBaron
03-25-2006, 09:52 AM
princeton's wife thinks your sexy too?

I thought it was just Raisor?

:mooner:
:laugh: Hey, she apparently finds several of us to be sexy;)

RedsBaron
03-25-2006, 09:55 AM
First base isn't as easy to play as many people make it out to be.


While I wouldn't say any position is exactly "easy" to be at a major league level, I do believe that firstbase is the easiest position to play. It certainly is the easiest position I ever palyed.

RedsBaron
03-25-2006, 09:58 AM
I don't buy there is an upgrade defensively with Freel over Dunn. I doubt Denorfia is a significant upgrade since he grades out fairly average across the skills board.

Dunn's inexperienced defensive movement and lack of timing at first could have further reaching effects than just one infield position. Encarnacion, for one, is a young player with developing throwing skills who would not benefit from Dunn's learning experience.
Yesterday's assignment of Denorfia to the minors is one of the more discouraging moves made by the Reds since Krivsky became GM. The Reds are not going to the World Series in 2006 anyway. I would like to see the Reds play guys such as Denorfia, who might help them win in 2007-08 and who still have potential, rather than keep guys such as Womack and Aurilia and Hatteberg.

Spitball
03-25-2006, 10:14 AM
Yesterday's assignment of Denorfia to the minors is one of the more discouraging moves made by the Reds since Krivsky became GM. The Reds are not going to the World Series in 2006 anyway. I would like to see the Reds play guys such as Denorfia, who might help them win in 2007-08 and who still have potential, rather than keep guys such as Womack and Aurilia and Hatteberg.

Considering the situation, this might be best for Denorfia. He can play everyday and wait for his chance, be it an injury or slump by someone. If he stays and sits, he probably wouldn't be as sharp when his call comes...and when was the last time the Reds went through a season without an outfielder on the DL or out for significant time?

4256 Hits
03-25-2006, 11:24 AM
Wayne Krivsky looooooooves him some 1B leather. .

Then why did he sign Hatteberg?

As far as Dunn playing 1st IMO he was better than Casey last year. He has so much more range.

M2
03-25-2006, 12:03 PM
This is really beside the point I was making, but, where are you getting this information? I'm curious because everything I've read has him quite average. ... Do you have a link to a scouting report that reports on his speed, breaks, routes?

Have you seen him play the game? His speed, breaks and routes are pretty obvious when you do. Mind you, all you've got to be is an average CF to be vastly better than Jr.

Sometimes I think scouts drop the ball on guys like Denorfia. He's at least average in every phase of the game now that he's featuring some pop in his bat. He may not have an extraordinary skill, but he's got the complete package and defense is probably his strong suit.

He's probably got 60-65 range, 60 speed, a 55-60 arm, 55 hit for average and 50 power. The power could dip a bit in the majors, but he should be a 15 HR guy with close to 40 doubles and 7 or so triples in the majors.

M2
03-25-2006, 12:15 PM
Yesterday's assignment of Denorfia to the minors is one of the more discouraging moves made by the Reds since Krivsky became GM. The Reds are not going to the World Series in 2006 anyway. I would like to see the Reds play guys such as Denorfia, who might help them win in 2007-08 and who still have potential, rather than keep guys such as Womack and Aurilia and Hatteberg.

Agreed. To build on that, what's discouraging about it is that it indicates that the Reds haven't yet fully grasped where they're at and put together a comprehensive plan to rise out of it.

This team has got to favor youth. The Reds are never going win by tweaking the current roster. The way out involves hastening the arrival of what's coming next.

I'm all right with Denorfia getting another two or three months in AAA, but he's probably part of the long-range plan. I don't know if the Reds have reached that conclusion yet. I don't know that they will until Denorfia replaces the next OF dealt for pitching ... and that's what I find deflating about this move -- I'm not sure the team is thinking past opening day yet.

RANDY IN INDY
03-25-2006, 12:43 PM
Denorfia deserves a look, but I'm not sold that he is this team's answer in centerfield after 1 good minor league season. If Dunn were to have stayed at first base, I would have liked to have seen Denorfia get a look in CF with Junior moving to left. Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

From what I have seen of Denorfia, he looks like he could be a servieceable player, but I haven't seen anything that makes me want to jump up and down to see him play. With that said, I still think he is the best option that the Reds have, should someone go down or be traded. Freel would deserve some serious consideration, as well, if he is not going to be playing every day at second. I would like to see Freel at second on a daily basis.

RedsManRick
03-25-2006, 12:52 PM
The problem is, as others have stated, is that this team isn't going to win this year, but they aren't taking steps to prepare for winning in the future. There is nothing to gain but giving Scott Hatteberg & Tony Womack ABs over Chris Denorfia & Ryan Freel. Whether or not the team is better this year isn't the question -- it's likely a matter of winning 71 or 72 games. But you need to know who you have next year and the year after that -- and leaving guys on the bench or in the minors doesn't accomplish that.

M2
03-25-2006, 01:14 PM
... but I haven't seen anything that makes me want to jump up and down to see him play.

And that's why scouts overlook his type. He's not going to reinvent the wheel in front of you and you don't get to see the cumulative effect of everything he does well in a sitting. You might come away with something small, like his bat speed is faster than you thought (ergo his power increase the past two years) or that he covers more ground than you thought. Even when he makes a good play in the field I'm guessing it gets chalked up to hustle more than ability. Yet that hustle moves at a good clip, breaks on contact and takes a direct route to the ball every time. In a more athletic-looking or ballyhooed package what he does would be considered ability instead of hustle.

Denorfia's just a baseball player and I'm guessing he'd be a pretty solid approximation of what you'd get from, say, Coco Crisp. That he doesn't set people's hair on fire means that he's probably the guy you should keep while you deal away guys with better advance press like Kearns for the pitching you need.

IslandRed
03-25-2006, 02:41 PM
I'm all right with Denorfia getting another two or three months in AAA, but he's probably part of the long-range plan. I don't know if the Reds have reached that conclusion yet. I don't know that they will until Denorfia replaces the next OF dealt for pitching ... and that's what I find deflating about this move -- I'm not sure the team is thinking past opening day yet.

I think Krivsky has an idea of what needs to be fixed but (as you pointed out to FCB in past threads) the roster makeover isn't going to be finished by opening day. In particular, kicking Griffey out of center field may be a battle he's not yet prepared to fight, and here's why:

To me, the near-immediate signing of Dunn and moving him back to LF was a clear indication that Dunn's the lead dog in Krivsky's plan. He's not going to be the guy moved to a position where he's not comfy for the sake of others, and I wouldn't be surprised if "You'd rather play left? OK" was part of the contract negotiation that got him to sign for reasonable numbers. Whatever difficulties that imposes will be dealt with in turn.

Bringing it back to Griffey, if I'm right, left field's not going to happen. Maybe Kearns is dealt for pitching, opening up right field as a possibility. But if he isn't, then for Griffey, that leaves first base... or another team. Neither of those things will happen right now, although I wouldn't be surprised if a first baseman's mitt appears in his locker at some point.

KronoRed
03-25-2006, 04:17 PM
He's probably got 60-65 range, 60 speed, a 55-60 arm, 55 hit for average and 50 power. The power could dip a bit in the majors, but he should be a 15 HR guy with close to 40 doubles and 7 or so triples in the majors.
A right handed Mark Kotsay, cheap and pretty good.

A superstar? nope..but teams like the Reds are dreaming if they wait for every prospect to be a superstar in waiting.

wheels
03-26-2006, 01:43 PM
You guys are gonna laugh at me, and maybe I was drunk, but when I saw Deno play in person last season, he reminded me of Johnny Damon in the field.

Team Clark
03-26-2006, 02:28 PM
Have you seen him play the game? His speed, breaks and routes are pretty obvious when you do. Mind you, all you've got to be is an average CF to be vastly better than Jr.

Sometimes I think scouts drop the ball on guys like Denorfia. He's at least average in every phase of the game now that he's featuring some pop in his bat. He may not have an extraordinary skill, but he's got the complete package and defense is probably his strong suit.

He's probably got 60-65 range, 60 speed, a 55-60 arm, 55 hit for average and 50 power. The power could dip a bit in the majors, but he should be a 15 HR guy with close to 40 doubles and 7 or so triples in the majors.

M2 I need to get you to scout school in Sept. You were prety close to what I had. Here are my marks for Denorfia based on seeing him 7 times this spring.

Range 68-70 Speed 70 Arm 58-60 58 Hit for Avg 50 Power 65 Arm Accuracy I have sen him close on balls that Damon, Crisp, Baldelli, and Griffey do not get to. When I mean "do not get to" I mean they fall at least a step short. That's the difference between getting out of a big inning and giving up 2 extra runs.

I posted earlier this spring that Denorfia was a lot faster than I remembered. He strikes the ball well and I have seen his approach dramatically change for the better this spring. He probably needs 200 AB's with his new approach before he becomes consistent. Johnny Almaraz is high on him and has commented to me twice on how proud he is of Chris. Denorfia has an average arm but who cares? Griff's arm has been average for two years and it has not dramatically affected the Reds.

wheels
03-26-2006, 03:45 PM
M2 I need to get you to scout school in Sept. You were prety close to what I had. Here are my marks for Denorfia based on seeing him 7 times this spring.

Range 68-70 Speed 70 Arm 58-60 58 Hit for Avg 50 Power 65 Arm Accuracy I have sen him close on balls that Damon, Crisp, Baldelli, and Griffey do not get to. When I mean "do not get to" I mean they fall at least a step short. That's the difference between getting out of a big inning and giving up 2 extra runs.

I posted earlier this spring that Denorfia was a lot faster than I remembered. He strikes the ball well and I have seen his approach dramatically change for the better this spring. He probably needs 200 AB's with his new approach before he becomes consistent. Johnny Almaraz is high on him and has commented to me twice on how proud he is of Chris. Denorfia has an average arm but who cares? Griff's arm has been average for two years and it has not dramatically affected the Reds.

Just makes me more upset that he's in AAA.

KronoRed
03-26-2006, 03:57 PM
Just makes me more upset that he's in AAA.
The Bats have a chance to contend ;)

Spitball
03-26-2006, 06:45 PM
M2 I need to get you to scout school in Sept. You were prety close to what I had. Here are my marks for Denorfia based on seeing him 7 times this spring.

Range 68-70 Speed 70 Arm 58-60 58 Hit for Avg 50 Power 65 Arm Accuracy I have sen him close on balls that Damon, Crisp, Baldelli, and Griffey do not get to. When I mean "do not get to" I mean they fall at least a step short. That's the difference between getting out of a big inning and giving up 2 extra runs.

Whoa! TC, I greatly admire your opinions, but your range and speed numbers are up there. The guy has made all of seven big league starts so I obviously haven't seen much of him, but I think I'd have noticed if he were a 70 type speed guy. A 70 would be well above average.

Team Clark
03-26-2006, 10:26 PM
Whoa! TC, I greatly admire your opinions, but your range and speed numbers are up there. The guy has made all of seven big league starts so I obviously haven't seen much of him, but I think I'd have noticed if he were a 70 type speed guy. A 70 would be well above average.

That's exactly what I was thinking to myself the first 2-3 times I saw him this spring. Originally I thought it was that others around him were that slow. A factor than can mislead your initial observations. I have seen him go first to third, close on balls DEEP in the gap, fly down the line, turn routine grounders into bang, bang plays. He has 70 speed. No doubt about it. I have notes on him for 7 games this spring and he's three things... FAST, Aggressive and Smart. He can hit, he can run and he makes a strong throw to the cutoff man. I really look forward to seeing how he adjustst this year. I really think he can take a Brady Clark type of path. Similar traits. Denorfia is faster but Clark has a little more pop and a stonger arm.

M2
03-27-2006, 02:16 AM
It seems to me that Denorfia's got better speed on defense than on the basepaths. As TC noted, he really closes on the ball. On offense I haven't seen the same kind of turnover. Maybe the base turns throw him a bit. Hard to say. Technically he should be capable of moving at the same clip on either offense or defense. Yet he seems to find fifth gear in the field.