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View Full Version : Add one more outfielder to the mix.



redsfan30
03-27-2006, 12:44 PM
There has got to be a trade in the works, doesn't there?


Monday, March 27, 2006
Another outfielder? Sure!

SARASOTA -- The Reds have signed outfielder Terrence Long to a minor league contract. He's been in the majors all of the last five seasons, most recently with the Royals last year. I have no doubt that his .319 career OBP will incite more unrest, but I'd say this is a pretty low-risk move.

Also:

LaRue's surgery this morning took about 30 minutes and he's expected back at the ballpark by this afternoon.

The Reds have released outfielder Stephen Smitherman.

RedsManRick
03-27-2006, 12:50 PM
Krivsky is to washed up retread OFs as Bowden was to washed up retread SP. Only difference is that Krivsky's guys are actually expected to be backups...

TRF
03-27-2006, 12:50 PM
Guess Krivsky was done cornering the market on no-hit 2B, and turned to no-hit OF's

M2
03-27-2006, 12:51 PM
Now, I haven't minded McCracken or Tuffy. I don't even mind Alex Sanchez because I doubt anyone can stand him long enough to amass any real playing time, but I hate Terrence Long's game. I can't think of one thing he does well.

Heath
03-27-2006, 12:51 PM
He'll be great in Louisville. Or someplace other than Cincinnati.

Heath
03-27-2006, 12:52 PM
but I hate Terrence Long's game. I can't think of one thing he does well.

swing and miss? :dunno:

pedro
03-27-2006, 12:55 PM
They have so little depth at AAA that this is OK as long he stays there.

I wonder if Rolando Roomes is still available?

KittyDuran
03-27-2006, 12:56 PM
The Reds have released outfielder Stephen Smitherman.Wow! How the mighty have fallen....:( and he was the 2001 Dragons player that I couldn't remember at the ST gathering who hit a lot of HRs [along with Samone Peters, Randy Ruiz and Wily Mo.]

lollipopcurve
03-27-2006, 12:59 PM
I believe Long is reputed to be a good defensive centerfielder. Am I wrong?

Seems to me they're accumulating spare CFs. I think Freel will be traded.

savafan
03-27-2006, 01:00 PM
Wasn't it just two years ago that Smitherman was the Reds' minor league player of the year? More an indictment against the farm system than anything else, but still...

westofyou
03-27-2006, 01:00 PM
Wow! How the mighty have fallen..
A hungry man sees a steak in a buffalo wing, reds fans often see a star in older ML performances.

M2
03-27-2006, 01:02 PM
swing and miss? :dunno:

There's also his CS skills. His documented can of corn ability and he's textbook when it comes to let-the-ball-for-a-hit-and-then-make-a-weak-throw-to-the-wrong-spot.

MartyFan
03-27-2006, 01:03 PM
The one thing about signing these "MLB experienced" OF's Mid-Infielders is that with them playing at AAA it fields a better team there and may perhaps give the team some trade felxability? guessing....hmmmm.

M2
03-27-2006, 01:03 PM
I believe Long is reputed to be a good defensive centerfielder. Am I wrong?

Yes, he's awful. No range, bad instincts, weenie arm.

Chip R
03-27-2006, 01:12 PM
Wasn't it just two years ago that Smitherman was the Reds' minor league player of the year? More an indictment against the farm system than anything else, but still...

Yep. The curse lives on.

RedsManRick
03-27-2006, 01:17 PM
He really fell apart quickly. He lost his power in 2004 and then his plate discipline in 2005. Krivsky is really clearing the system of all the non-prospect types. Looks like he wants the upper minors to be full of either veteran major leaguers or legitimate prospects -- and nothing in between.

Johnny Footstool
03-27-2006, 01:25 PM
I believe Long is reputed to be a good defensive centerfielder. Am I wrong?


You're not wrong -- he does have that reputation, undeserved as it is.

Long's nickname used to be "Magellan" because of the long routes he took in the outfield.

He's one of those guys scouts expect to run and field well because, well, he looks like he should be able to do so. But he can't. He's proven it many times over.

Doc. Scott
03-27-2006, 01:30 PM
Long was a little more tolerable in 2004 and 2005 as a part-time player in San Diego and Kansas City. Although he ended up playing too much in KC because they had nobody else to run out there (considering Emil Brown was another one of their OF starters).

I didn't realize he was unemployed. He has more pop than McCracken (okay, not much more), but doesn't field as well. I must admit I'm surprised that Wayne Krivsky is springing for these athletic, no-instincts players- it doesn't seem like the Twins historically were into those types.

Caveat Emperor
03-27-2006, 01:42 PM
I didn't realize he was unemployed. He has more pop than McCracken (okay, not much more), but doesn't field as well. I must admit I'm surprised that Wayne Krivsky is springing for these athletic, no-instincts players- it doesn't seem like the Twins historically were into those types.

Maybe he's really just trying to throw all the other GM's off his real goals...?

It reminds me of the scene in Monty Python & The Holy Grail where Sir Robin's suggested course of action for contronting the killer rabbit is to ask: "Would it help to confuse it if we run away more?"

savafan
03-27-2006, 01:50 PM
Stocking AAA with AAAA former major leaguers seems to be a trend for a lot of organizations these days, while the top prospects tend to come to the majors directly from AA.

SteelSD
03-27-2006, 01:52 PM
I believe Long is reputed to be a good defensive centerfielder. Am I wrong?

Long used to get to a ton of balls in CF...until he lost a step...then another...then another. Problem is that when you rely on speed to get to the ball and then lose steps while taking bad routes, it catches up quickly.

Long's 2000 ZR of .911 is pretty astounding considering the ten Errors he posted that season. Followed it up with a .914 ZR in 2001. That's where his rep developed.

And I'm not at all surprised that Krivsky brought Long in. Probably thinks of him as a Jaque Jones type.

Falls City Beer
03-27-2006, 02:01 PM
I didn't realize he was unemployed. He has more pop than McCracken (okay, not much more), but doesn't field as well. I must admit I'm surprised that Wayne Krivsky is springing for these athletic, no-instincts players- it doesn't seem like the Twins historically were into those types.

Christian Guzman and Juan Castro on the speaker phone.

savafan
03-27-2006, 02:05 PM
Christian Guzman and Juan Castro on the speaker phone.

I was thinking that same thing earlier. Oh, and Corky Miller.

graveyard
03-27-2006, 03:04 PM
Moves like this also lets us know how bad the upper level minor leagues are.

KronoRed
03-27-2006, 03:17 PM
Christian Guzman and Juan Castro on the speaker phone.
Don't forget Fernando Vina

redsmetz
03-27-2006, 03:32 PM
Stocking AAA with AAAA former major leaguers seems to be a trend for a lot of organizations these days, while the top prospects tend to come to the majors directly from AA.

It would be very interesting to see what the average age of AAA players is anymore. It sort of reminds me of the 30's thru 40's when guys who were finished at the ML still played a handful of years in the minors. Sort of like my sister-in-law's uncle who had a cup of coffee with the Bosox and Senators in the 50's (replaced Dom DiMaggio after he retired. He played one year with the Sox, two with the Senators, then went and tore up the PCL for a few more years.

Over the last ten years or so, I think this has been happening more and more. Do others agree that this is a trend?

joe

westofyou
03-27-2006, 03:41 PM
It would be very interesting to see what the average age of AAA players is anymore. It sort of reminds me of the 30's thru 40's when guys who were finished at the ML still played a handful of years in the minors. Sort of like my sister-in-law's uncle who had a cup of coffee with the Bosox and Senators in the 50's (replaced Dom DiMaggio after he retired. He played one year with the Sox, two with the Senators, then went and tore up the PCL for a few more years.

Over the last ten years or so, I think this has been happening more and more. Do others agree that this is a trend?

joe

Tom Umphlett eh?

redsmetz
03-27-2006, 03:43 PM
Tom Umphlett eh?

Yep. And he's from the same town as Catfish Hunter, a family friend. When talking about Hunter, my brother's father-in-law always says, "We always call him 'Ji-im'" - with a drawl in there.

IslandRed
03-27-2006, 04:11 PM
I agree, redsmetz. I remember an article -- had to have been at least five years ago -- that looked at top prospects' progression through the minors along with Triple-A roster makeup, and concluded that Double-A has become the real proving ground.

flyer85
03-27-2006, 04:16 PM
These days AAA has more guys on their way down than guys on their way up.

REDREAD
03-27-2006, 04:41 PM
Well, it's looking like Krivisty is doing what a lot of you guys were asking for.. trying to trade anything possible to upgrade the pitching and then backfilling with position players.. The downside of that strategy is that the lineup ends up with Womack,Hattenberg, Long, etc.

I wonder if Kearns is on the block. I'm guessing he'd be traded before Freel. Freel just doesn't seem to have the appeal around the league as Kearns, despite Kearns last season. But that's just a guess.

If Wayne can get another decent pitcher for Kearns, and Arroyo ends up decent, we'll probalby have 4 good pitchers going into next year, and the opportunity to fill the lineup in from FA..

vaticanplum
03-27-2006, 04:45 PM
I agree, redsmetz. I remember an article -- had to have been at least five years ago -- that looked at top prospects' progression through the minors along with Triple-A roster makeup, and concluded that Double-A has become the real proving ground.

Yeah, it's true, and I think it actually goes back further, more like ten years. Now I feel like AAA is the breeding ground for "AAAA" -- guys who aren't good enough to be regulars but can fill in if needed. Late 20s, can be serviceable for limited time but would be totally exposed if they were up in the majors full-time.

The level of play between AA and AAA is not tremendously big, but the talent is. in my opinion.

flyer85
03-27-2006, 04:46 PM
I wonder if Kearns is on the block. I'm guessing he'd be traded before Freel. I can't see Kearns going anywhere. There is nothing to replace him with. Right now I would keep Denorfia in reserve for the inevitable Jr injury. The Reds just have no OF prospects hardly anywhere in their system. I think the only real OF prospect is Bruce and his ETA is probably in 2008.

RedLegSuperStar
03-27-2006, 04:51 PM
I hear it preached day in and day out of this club, that it needs pitching, pitching , pitching. I can't believe we are signing another posistion player, that's not named Carlos Pena. You trade Basham for Ross to back up LaRue and Valentin (Valentin til LaRue is back), when Ross can't get himself out of a wet paper bag. This is his 4th team in 2 years.. He gets tossed around more then the Olsen twins. If we can't improve, don't make a move.. I thought that is what RCast was preaching since he dotted his "i's" and crossed his "t's"

Doc. Scott
03-27-2006, 05:06 PM
Christian Guzman and Juan Castro on the speaker phone.

Juan Castro= world-class athlete? Are you kidding? Castro was the exact opposite of a guy like Guzman.

redsmetz
03-27-2006, 05:07 PM
I think at times we're thinking to hard on some of these moves, mystifying though they are. With the players they've been D'ingFA, we need to fill out the minors. As I said earlier, I think this is more the role of the AAA club to have major league experience players ready to plug in when someone goes down.

I think we need to remember Krivskey has come to the game late. There aren't a lot of options available. This will take time and I don't know that we can honestly judge Krivskey and Castellini's work for a year or more. It takes time to turn around a behemoth. They need players at the minor league level and we're getting the bottom of the barrel. We'll draft in June (?) and we'll continue to pick up cast offs and make trades to start reassembling the organization.

Just my opinion.

M2
03-27-2006, 05:16 PM
Well, it's looking like Krivisty is doing what a lot of you guys were asking for.. trying to trade anything possible to upgrade the pitching and then backfilling with position players.. The downside of that strategy is that the lineup ends up with Womack,Hattenberg, Long, etc.

Those guys aren't the inevitable consequence of such a strategy. Womack and Long really shouldn't be part of any strategy.

I agree with redsmetz that the circumstances of Krivsky's late in the offseason arrival might have tied his hands a bit on what kind of backfill he can get at the moment, but his facility with the offensive part of the game remains an open question at the moment.

redsmetz
03-27-2006, 05:20 PM
We should remember to, if I'm correct, Womack was not a Kriskey move. I don't see Long being an answer at the ML level - he's one of those guys who plays in Louisville and then if five players go down, he's available to come up.

M2
03-27-2006, 05:42 PM
We should remember to, if I'm correct, Womack was not a Kriskey move. I don't see Long being an answer at the ML level - he's one of those guys who plays in Louisville and then if five players go down, he's available to come up.

I doubt anyone forgets that DanO brought us Tony Womack as one of the fabulous parting gifts in his 2+ years of running the franchise into the dirt.

KronoRed
03-27-2006, 05:44 PM
But to me Krivsky is partner in the Womack signing by not immediately dumping him off.

redsmetz
03-27-2006, 05:50 PM
But to me Krivsky is partner in the Womack signing by not immediately dumping him off.

I think its unrealistic to expect the Reds to eat that salary at this point, although I've said otherwise. If he really stinks it up as many here expect him to do, then jettison him. For now, I think it's money they shouldn't waste for the time being. I know that's an unpopular view, but I think he's stuck on this one right now.

KronoRed
03-27-2006, 05:52 PM
I think it would have been a nice signal to the rest of the team that nobody was safe, chopping some heads can be good in some cases ;)

Nugget
03-27-2006, 06:33 PM
Josh Hancock - I think Krivsky's moves have been on performance rather than statistics. If Womack had really stunk in ST then he would go but he has been average. If he did what some are advocating the REDS could shut down ST go through the stats pick their roster and send everyone else home.

M2
03-27-2006, 06:36 PM
Josh Hancock - I think Krivsky's moves have been on performance rather than statistics. If Womack had really stunk in ST then he would go but he has been average. If he did what some are advocating the REDS could shut down ST go through the stats pick their roster and send everyone else home.

Um, stats are an indication of performance ... that's why the stats interpretation of the game is often called performance analysis.

As for ST stats/performance, it's a generally agreed upon principle between the numbers folks and the seamheads that ST numbers are generally worthless, especially with older players who already have long track records.

Nugget
03-27-2006, 06:41 PM
Yeah but you already have Womack signed for 1.1. Are you going to cut him based on stats or are you going to first evaluate him first in ST. I was responding to those who said that Krivsky should have cut him even before ST started.

westofyou
03-27-2006, 06:45 PM
Yeah but you already have Womack signed for 1.1. Are you going to cut him based on stats or are you going to first evaluate him first in ST. I was responding to those who said that Krivsky should have cut him even before ST started.
The stats say that evaluatiion is a waste of time with Womack, he is consistently below average and only getting older and worse

REDREAD
03-27-2006, 06:45 PM
I can't see Kearns going anywhere. There is nothing to replace him with. Right now I would keep Denorfia in reserve for the inevitable Jr injury. The Reds just have no OF prospects hardly anywhere in their system. I think the only real OF prospect is Bruce and his ETA is probably in 2008.

IMO, you trade Kearns if you can get a good pitcher. This year, the Reds might have to suck it up and play a bad OF in Kearns place (one of the dozen non-roster guys), but then in the offseason, you go fishing for a Hammonds/Tucker of around 1999.. or a Reggie Sanders/Lofton like the Pirates do.

If Wayne can get a good pitcher for Kearns, he has to pull the trigger.

KronoRed
03-27-2006, 06:46 PM
I don't think Kearns could get a pitcher any better then we got for Pena, and to me you don't make that deal twice.

Highlifeman21
03-27-2006, 06:47 PM
I think it would have been a nice signal to the rest of the team that nobody was safe, chopping some heads can be good in some cases ;)


If that's the case, then probably 65 to 70% could have been cut to shake things up. That being said, I don't think WK's really done all that much to really shape this team into his own. Maybe that's a direct mandate of the new ownership, but aside from the Arroyo/Pena deal, I see no difference in WK from JimBo or DanO. Am I wrong to think that?

BigRed
03-27-2006, 06:47 PM
I agree. It is much easier to replace an outfielder than to acquire pitching.

REDREAD
03-27-2006, 06:51 PM
Those guys aren't the inevitable consequence of such a strategy. Womack and Long really shouldn't be part of any strategy.

I agree with redsmetz that the circumstances of Krivsky's late in the offseason arrival might have tied his hands a bit on what kind of backfill he can get at the moment, but his facility with the offensive part of the game remains an open question at the moment.

I'm assuming Wayne is under a mandate that he can't raise the budget, that's why he had to get cash to offset Arroyo. The Reds got to be expecting another attendence decline, since they aren't headed for a good year, and attendence has been declining.

I don't want to see Long starting either (or Womack), but I'm guessing money is too tight to sign a Carlos Pena or a Choi. Afterall, John Allen is still counting the beans.

Or maybe if there is money available, Wayne is trying to save it in case he can get an impact deal, instead of wasting it on a stopgap.

I'm willing to give Wayne a free pass this year (unless he makes a really dumb trade), because it looks like DanO tied his hands before he arrived. Next year will be the real test. I give the guy credit for beating the bushes, and trying to improve the team. DanO usually coasts from Feb to Sept and doesn't do anything.

REDREAD
03-27-2006, 06:53 PM
But to me Krivsky is partner in the Womack signing by not immediately dumping him off.


Why dump him? We'd still have to pay him, and we do need infield depth.
I can see getting mad at Narron if Womack starts, but there's no benefit to dumping Womack, as we've got no one better to replace him with, and it would cost us additional $$ for the replacement guy, even if the replacement guy made the minimum. Best just to bite the bullet and hope for the best on Womack.

REDREAD
03-27-2006, 06:56 PM
The stats say that evaluatiion is a waste of time with Womack, he is consistently below average and only getting older and worse

Yet, he's probably the best alternative the Reds have for the 25th guy on the bench. You'd have to replace him with an infeilder now that Wily Mo is gone. As bad as Womack is, he's probably better than Olmedo, Machado, etc.

KronoRed
03-27-2006, 06:56 PM
Worst player in the majors last year, I think any of these countless 2nd base utility guys we have brought in could do just as nice a job.

Eat the cash and send a message.

BRM
03-27-2006, 07:05 PM
Why dump him? We'd still have to pay him, and we do need infield depth.
I can see getting mad at Narron if Womack starts, but there's no benefit to dumping Womack, as we've got no one better to replace him with, and it would cost us additional $$ for the replacement guy, even if the replacement guy made the minimum. Best just to bite the bullet and hope for the best on Womack.

It should be pretty easy to replace one of the worst players in all of MLB. Anytime he takes the field, he hurts the team.

Caveat Emperor
03-27-2006, 07:06 PM
Worst player in the majors last year, I think any of these countless 2nd base utility guys we have brought in could do just as nice a job.

Eat the cash and send a message.

Except the only people that would send a message to are educated fans who understand that Tony Womack isn't a good player just because you've heard of him before.

It's certainly not going to send a message to the players if you cut a guy before he logs an AB in the season (and what message would it be? "We don't tolerate 'suck' around here anymore?"). It's certainly not going to send a message to the regular fans, who probably think Tony Womack isn't a bad option at 2nd.

Eat the cash because it makes the team better, not to send a message. In this case, Womack is probably at the same level as any number of other players that could be on the squad and not starting. It's probably better to pay Womack to play than cut him and give the spot to someone who is no better. As long as he's not starting, it doesn't really matter to me whether he's on the squad -- unless there is someone demonstrably better that should be there instead of him. Maybe that's Olmedo, not exactly certain.

reds44
03-27-2006, 07:07 PM
Best outfield in AAA

westofyou
03-27-2006, 07:09 PM
Yet, he's probably the best alternative the Reds have for the 25th guy on the bench. You'd have to replace him with an infeilder now that Wily Mo is gone. As bad as Womack is, he's probably better than Olmedo, Machado, etc.
No he isn't.

I'd take a glove guy who could take a walk over the corpse known as Tony Womack.

Krusty
03-27-2006, 08:12 PM
I don't see Womack going anywhere....ditto for Hatteberg. A one year rental for both. This will be a transition year for the Reds as Krivsky slowly puts his signature on this team.

Mario-Rijo
03-27-2006, 08:55 PM
They have so little depth at AAA that this is OK as long he stays there.

I wonder if Rolando Roomes is still available?

Roomes does have a WS Championship ring. Just sayin'

westofyou
03-27-2006, 08:57 PM
Roomes does have a WS Championship ring. Just sayin'
So does Ray Oyler and Wayne Comer.

REDREAD
03-28-2006, 01:41 PM
No he isn't.

I'd take a glove guy who could take a walk over the corpse known as Tony Womack.

Problem is, we don't have one of those guys in house.
When Wayne comes in, he has to work with what he has. Even if he does have a little cash to spend, it makes no sense spending it on the 25th man on the roster..

If Narron is smart (big assumption) and the team is healthy, Womack gets maybe 100-150 AB.. not a big deal in determining the team's fate.

IMO, Machado and Olmedo are worse than Womack, plus it would cost about 350k to replace Womack with them. Why not just spend that 350k on the draft instead of shuffling around deck chairs on the Titanic? I can accept that Womack will be on the team this year, and will likely be below average. We're in rebuilding mode now, it's ok.. we need to focus the limited resources we have on the future, and I hope that Machado and Olmedo are not part of the future, because they are worse than Womack.

KySteveH
03-28-2006, 02:24 PM
IMO, Machado and Olmedo are worse than Womack, plus it would cost about 350k to replace Womack with them. Why not just spend that 350k on the draft instead of shuffling around deck chairs on the Titanic?

I completely agree. You can toss the rest of the Reds' AAA(A) middle infielders in here too: Bergolla, Kata, Wathan, Herr, etc. Sad as this is, Womack is a better option this year.

westofyou
03-28-2006, 02:38 PM
IMO, Machado and Olmedo are worse than Womack

I don't like Olmedo, nor Womack.. you keep saying Womack is better based on who he is is better than on the Reds (aside from Freel) but you've yet to even start explaining what it is that makes Womack good?

From my POV it's a bucket that's alot emptier than the one that hold the reasons why he's good.

Shoot I'd take Kata over Womack.

KronoRed
03-28-2006, 02:40 PM
I'd bet my hat that Machado would out play Womack.

But we'll never know ;)