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Krusty
03-29-2006, 10:39 AM
I read in several NY papers that the Mets are putting Heilman back in the bullpen, which has upset him and is asking for a trade despite having a good spring. Seems like a kid named Bannister won the fifth spot in their rotation.

Anyways, you think the Reds could swing a deal with the Mets for Heilman? Maybe if the Reds could give up a reliever or two (there is a numbers crunch here), they could get Heilman for the fifth spot in the rotation and allow Dave Williams to assume a swingman role.

flyer85
03-29-2006, 10:41 AM
Anyways, you think the Reds could swing a deal with the Mets for Heilman? Maybe if the Reds could give up a reliever or two (there is a numbers crunch here), they could get Heilman for the fifth spot in the rotation and allow Dave Williams to assume a swingman role.I'd send 'em Williams and a couple of relievers and throw in a 2nd baseman to boot.

Heilman would instantly become their #2 starter and he is actually a GB pitcher. I would do what it takes to get him.

membengal
03-29-2006, 10:50 AM
Echo. I have no idea why the Mets are doing that, but, then again, I don't know why the Reds have done many of the things they have done. That said, Heilman would be an immediate upgrade to the staff, and getting him here would be a nice coup. Not going to hold my breath on that one though...

Krusty
03-29-2006, 10:51 AM
Mets turn to Bannister

Rookie cracks rotation; Aaron headed for pen

BY ADAM RUBIN
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER


JUPITER, Fla. - Brian Bannister coped with a restless Monday night by coordinating the production of a commercial for an Arizona taco restaurant, which was taking place at the studio the rookie pitcher owns 2,260 miles away from Mets camp.
Yesterday morning, the entrepreneurial Bannister got called into the manager's office at his other place of business. He learned he had made the starting rotation, pushing Aaron Heilman back to relief.

Team officials concluded Heilman was indispensable in relief and maintained Bannister - a 25-year-old righthander and seventh-round pick from USC in 2003, whose father Floyd pitched in the majors for 15 seasons and now serves as an employee at the studio - could perform comparably to Heilman in the rotation.

Willie Randolph suggested three factors that influenced Heilman's fate: Jorge Julio's late arrival at camp and absence during the World Baseball Classic; a potential acclimation period for Duaner Sanchez and Billy Wagner's stiff middle finger, even if it's not expected to pose a problem.

Said GM Omar Minaya: "We just felt we had the best chance to win the game late with Aaron Heilman in the bullpen. When you think about having Wagner, Heilman, (Chad) Bradford, Julio and Sanchez, I think that's as good a bullpen as you're going to get in the National League."

Bannister, who went a combined 13-5 with a 2.74 ERA at Double-A Binghamton and Triple-A Norfolk in 2005, took a low-key tone after the promotion. Randolph, asked to describe Bannister's demeanor after the manager relayed the news, said: "I don't know what his reaction was. He didn't really react."

Said Bannister, who has a 0.95 spring ERA: "This whole spring has been very tough on me because Aaron and I have become good friends, and I know that it's almost because he pitched so well in the bullpen last year and showed how effective he was against lefties. I know his preference is to start. You just look at his last two years at Notre Dame. He was one of the best pitchers in the country as a starter."

Heilman had been scheduled to start yesterday's game against the Marlins. Instead, he had the decision delivered to him before he stepped on the 9:30 a.m. bus for Jupiter.

He did everything possible to put himself in a position to start, the role he badly wanted. Heilman went 4-1 with a 2.27 ERA in the Dominican Republic this winter, then had a 1.29 ERA in four Grapefruit League starts. But the number that doomed Heilman was 0.68 - his second-half ERA in '05, the best of any reliever in the majors with 30 innings. Heilman, who pitched the final two innings yesterday, allowed one run in a 12-7 loss to the Marlins, the big blow being Miguel Olivo's triple. He hopes to pitch in back-to-back games before breaking camp Saturday to get into relief shape.

Much had been made over the winter of Heilman wanting out of New York if he wasn't going to start. He refused to acknowledge similar feelings yesterday. Heilman doesn't have any leverage anyway; he isn't even arbitration-eligible until after the 2007 season, and can't be a free agent until after 2010.

"There are not many people who can say what they want and then get it," Heilman said. "I voiced my opinion that I would like to start eventually. But, right now, if the best interest of the team is for me to go to the bullpen, then so be it. That's what I'll do."

Originally published on March 29, 2006

Chip R
03-29-2006, 10:57 AM
Echo. I have no idea why the Mets are doing that, but, then again, I don't know why the Reds have done many of the things they have done. That said, Heilman would be an immediate upgrade to the staff, and getting him here would be a nice coup. Not going to hold my breath on that one though...

Perhaps the Mets know what they are doing. Used to be you put a future starter in the bullpen before you put him in the rotation. Nowdays if a kid shows any kind of potential they put him in the rotation immediately. I'd trust the way the Mets handled their pitchers before I'd trust the Reds.

Johnny Footstool
03-29-2006, 11:01 AM
Perhaps the Mets know what they are doing. Used to be you put a future starter in the bullpen before you put him in the rotation. Nowdays if a kid shows any kind of potential they put him in the rotation immediately. I'd trust the way the Mets handled their pitchers before I'd trust the Reds.

Chip, they're putting a rookie pitcher in the rotation. Heilman is in his third season.

vaticanplum
03-29-2006, 11:03 AM
I'm pretty sure he was going back and forth all last season. I was at a game pretty early in the season where he had a one-hitter, then was in the bullpen a couple of weeks later. He always seems to be a huge question mark for them; he's very inconsistent -- and right off the top of my head (though I may be remembering incorrectly) -- falls apart in later innings? I think? Hence the bullpen thing. I'm sure they'll be testing him out early in the season, but if the rest of their starters do well, really might be something for the Reds to try for mid-season.

RedsManRick
03-29-2006, 11:04 AM
For what it's worth, Heilman was a pretty bad starter, but an awesome reliever. I don't really know much about him other than that what's listed on his ESPN bio (low 90's fastball, plus change & slider). His splits are pretty drastic though.

Starter: 25 GS (134 IP) 5.93 ERA, 1.56 WHIP, 106 K, 66 BB, 22! HR allowed
Reliever: 47G (68 IP) 2.13 ERA, 1.09 WHIP, 73 K, 25 BB, 1 HR allowed

He really seemed to struggle after his first 45 pithces. It looks like as a starter he probably tires, then tries to get a bit fine and walks some guys. To compensate he comes back in the zone, but gets high and gets killed. Typical starter/reliever type difference. He didn't exactly blow guys away as a starter in AAA in 2004 either. He's also 27, so he's not likely to make great strides. I think he probably caps out at Arroyo-like as a starter.

He would definitely be a nice addition to our staff, but he's not going to be a difference maker for anybody. I would gladly part with some spare parts, but wouldn't want to trade any core guys.

traderumor
03-29-2006, 11:06 AM
I'm pretty sure he was going back and forth all last season. I was at a game pretty early in the season where he had a one-hitter, then was in the bullpen a couple of weeks later. He always seems to be a huge question mark for them; he's very inconsistent -- and right off the top of my head (though I may be remembering incorrectly) -- falls apart in later innings? I think? Hence the bullpen thing. I'm sure they'll be testing him out early in the season, but if the rest of their starters do well, really might be something for the Reds to try for mid-season.That sounds like a description of Chris Reitsma's days in Cincy. I'd take another stab at a Reitsma career track.

Newman4
03-29-2006, 11:13 AM
Heilman has improved each year almost across the board. His numbers from last year are very good. (i.e. ERA 3.17, OPS Against .595, GB/FB 1.52). He looks to me like one of those guys who is reaching his prime in his late 20s. Even better, not eligible for free agency until 2010.

My question is what would it take to pick him up?

membengal
03-29-2006, 12:14 PM
Chip, they're putting a rookie pitcher in the rotation. Heilman is in his third season.

Yeah, what he said. They did the bullpen thing with Heilman last year, and it rather underscored your point Chip, which is that the bullpen can be a nice place to develop a guy. And, it was with Heilman. LAST year. Their putting him back in long relief because he was good there last year to put a rookie in the rotation when Heilman has been lights out as a starter all winter and in the spring smacks of Cincy's putting Womack at the top of the line-up for significant at-bats. Like I said, puzzling.

TeamSelig
03-29-2006, 12:17 PM
I'd give them Weathers for him. Doubt they would do it though.

Red Leader
03-29-2006, 12:26 PM
From what I've heard, they want to coddle their starters early in the year, after all they have a rotation of, Pedro, Tom Glavine, Steve Trachsel, Victor Zambrano, and Brian Bannister. Pedro, Glavine, and Trachsel are old and Pedro got a late start to spring training. They probably won't go more than 5-6 innings the first 4-5 starts to the year. Zambrano can get lit up with the best of them on occasion and Bannister is an unknown, who they don't want to over-pitch. So, it makes sense to put Heilman in the bullpen since they are going to rely heavily on the bullpen the first month or two of the season. Heilman will get a lot of work that first month, and if Bannister struggles, or if anyone gets injured, they'll probably put him in the rotation after a month.

Red Leader
03-29-2006, 12:31 PM
I wonder though, with Kaz Matsui on the DL if they'd be interested in one of our 2nd basemen?

I'd offer them Kata, Aurillia, or Womack for a player like Victor Diaz or a good prospect, or try to package them to get Heilman some way.

savafan
03-29-2006, 12:37 PM
I'd swap Denorfia for Heilman. If the Reds aren't going to use Denorfia, may as well get something of value for him.

Falls City Beer
03-29-2006, 12:39 PM
I'd swap Denorfia for Heilman. If the Reds aren't going to use Denorfia, may as well get something of value for him.

Good idea. That would probably do it, if you play it right. If they wanted a reliever with him, great.

Krusty
03-30-2006, 12:49 AM
I wonder though, with Kaz Matsui on the DL if they'd be interested in one of our 2nd basemen?

I'd offer them Kata, Aurillia, or Womack for a player like Victor Diaz or a good prospect, or try to package them to get Heilman some way.

You think a Womack/Wagner for Heilman deal might be in the works?

Red Leader
03-30-2006, 01:45 AM
You think a Womack/Wagner for Heilman deal might be in the works?

I'd be fine with that. Of course, I'm probably the wrong person to ask as I'm not the biggest Ryan Wagner fan on this board by any stretch of the imagination.

Gainesville Red
03-30-2006, 02:16 AM
You think a Womack/Wagner for Heilman deal might be in the works?

No way they'd go for that. Wagner's not as good as Heilman, right? And they've already got him in the bullpen.

And with the Met's always trying not to be the Yankee's stupid little brother, why would they want to have anything to do with Womack? He's already been a disaster with the Yankee's.

Am I totally off base here? I admittedly don't know a whole lot about what's going on with the Mets and don't know a whole lot about Heilman.

KronoRed
03-30-2006, 02:51 AM
Womack has negative trade value, he's only way out of here is a release.

savafan
03-30-2006, 02:57 AM
Denorfia and Wagner should be able to do the trick easily.

SirFelixCat
03-30-2006, 05:18 AM
Denorfia and Wagner should be able to do the trick easily.


While I like both players, you have to take moderate risks with upside. This, imo, would be a good one to try it on.

edited to add: how is their catching situation...we seem to have a surplus....

Stewie
03-30-2006, 08:43 AM
For what it's worth, Heilman was a pretty bad starter, but an awesome reliever. I don't really know much about him other than that what's listed on his ESPN bio (low 90's fastball, plus change & slider). His splits are pretty drastic though.

Starter: 25 GS (134 IP) 5.93 ERA, 1.56 WHIP, 106 K, 66 BB, 22! HR allowed
Reliever: 47G (68 IP) 2.13 ERA, 1.09 WHIP, 73 K, 25 BB, 1 HR allowed

He really seemed to struggle after his first 45 pithces. It looks like as a starter he probably tires, then tries to get a bit fine and walks some guys. To compensate he comes back in the zone, but gets high and gets killed. Typical starter/reliever type difference. He didn't exactly blow guys away as a starter in AAA in 2004 either. He's also 27, so he's not likely to make great strides. I think he probably caps out at Arroyo-like as a starter.

He would definitely be a nice addition to our staff, but he's not going to be a difference maker for anybody. I would gladly part with some spare parts, but wouldn't want to trade any core guys.

This could also be due to immaturity. Heilman may just not have enough experience starting to be able to pitch effectively for at least 6 innings. If you look at Brett Myers, he had the same problem a couple years ago, where he would more or less fall apart after the first time through the order. Then last year, he managed to put it all together and pitch as well late in the game as he did the first time through the order. Ben Sheets was the same way. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Heilman will break out the same way they did, but at 27, he is still young enough to put it all together and become a very good starter. He's heading in the right direction, his walk rate has gone down, while his strike out rate has gone up. And he is a ground ball pitcher, so that works, too.

I think it definitely would be worth Krivsky's time to look at trying to get Heilman, if the price isn't ridiculous. And since the Mets do some pretty dumb things, the Reds might be able to get him cheap.

savafan
03-30-2006, 11:05 AM
Rotoworld is speculating on a Heilman to Tampa Bay for Julio Lugo deal.

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/03/30/Rays/Maddon_won_t_fret_ove.shtml

They could also get quickly involved in a bigger deal with the Mets if they were to consider trading Aaron Heilman, who is unhappy about being bumped to the bullpen. The Mets have had interest in Julio Lugo and still have a need for an established second baseman.

flyer85
03-30-2006, 11:07 AM
Rotoworld is speculating on a Heilman to Tampa Bay for Julio Lugo deal.Remember that is the Eggs. They talk alot, just never do anything. They have been on the verge of trading Lugo(as well as Gathright, Huff, etc) for the last year

LincolnparkRed
03-30-2006, 11:09 AM
One thing with Tampa is that they always ask for the world for their players and that seems to be why there players are always rumored to be going somewhere but never do. I say we try to insert ourselves in Tampa's place

Red Heeler
03-30-2006, 11:24 AM
How about Freel for Heilman and a potential younger version of Freel in Chase Lambin?

Johnny Footstool
03-30-2006, 01:13 PM
Maybe they'd be interested in WMP? I'd package him and a prospect for Heilman and a prospect.

Wait a minute...

KronoRed
03-30-2006, 02:54 PM
Maybe they'd be interested in WMP? I'd package him and a prospect for Heilman and a prospect.

Wait a minute...
We still have Kearns then we can start Mccraken! :D

Sabo Fan
03-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Rotoworld is speculating on a Heilman to Tampa Bay for Julio Lugo deal.

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/03/30/Rays/Maddon_won_t_fret_ove.shtml

They could also get quickly involved in a bigger deal with the Mets if they were to consider trading Aaron Heilman, who is unhappy about being bumped to the bullpen. The Mets have had interest in Julio Lugo and still have a need for an established second baseman.

Reds ought to try and inject themselves into this deal if it's actually being discussed. Get an idea of what Huff would cost and then when that's too high, inquire about Wes Bankston, a 22 year-old 1st baseman that seems to be blocked right now and who whould fit in nicely at first base for the Reds. BP likes him and it looks to me that the kid has some decent upside. He struggled a bit in his age-19 season in A-ball, repeated the level and mashed, to the tune of .289/.390/.513. Promoted to AA where he went
.292/.362/.482. Not sure about park factors though, so perhaps those numbers are inflated a bit, but still impressive. Probably wouldn't cost a ton either.

Maybe something like Denorfia to the Mets and Wagner to the D-Rays would get the Reds Bankston and maybe a prospect apiece from Tampa Bay and the Mets. The Lugo-Heilmann swap would also be a part of this.

Newman4
03-31-2006, 10:37 AM
The Mets have had interest in Julio Lugo and still have a need for an established second baseman.:eek:

We have all kinds of those. Hey, wait, does established mean "experienced"? Does established mean they have to be good?

Womack, Womack, Womack????

KronoRed
03-31-2006, 02:28 PM
They can have both Rich and Tony if it helps.